Episode 3.3 Abel Keogh Widower Author, Blogger, and Relationship Coach

“It’s different now and that’s OK,” says Abel Keogh, author, blogger, relationship coach and host of YouTube channel Widower Wednesday. Abel became a widower 21 years ago at the age of 26 when his wife took her own life while she was seven months pregnant. He started anonymously blogging during that first year as a widower, sharing his experiences and awkward dating stories. The blog soon took off as there were virtually no other resources for widowers at the time. After receiving so many of the same questions and issues from widowers and the women dating them, he began writing his first of six books, “Room for two.” 

Abel and his current wife Julianna have been married for 20 years and share seven children, and their needs and challenges–like all couples in their situation–continue to grow and change throughout the course of the relationship. Men’s need to act as “fixers'' can negatively influence their ability to choose a new partner. Second wives struggle with wanting to be number one in their husbands lives without being insensitive to the memory of the deceased. It takes work to move on and be happy in what Abel calls Chapter Two. Learning how to set boundaries is crucial.

Grief is no excuse for insensitivity and bad behavior, Mathew and Abel agree. When entering into a new relationship with a widower, it is crucial for both parties to trust their gut instincts. Abel discusses the very common mistake widowers make on social media which can and has destroyed relationships. 

Quotes

• “People were reaching out to me because I was the only resource out there at the time…a steady flow of people, mostly women, asking me, ‘Help me out here.’” (6:41-7:13 | Abel)
• “We both know timelines don't matter in grief. But there is something about the first year, of getting through all the firsts.” (11:51-11:58 | Mathew)
• ‘The guys that I talk to, there's this spark inside of them, where they want to move forward, but they don't know how to do it...they're looking for some kind of direction. ‘Well, how do I start?’ ” (18:03-18:50 | Abel)
• “A lot of the time, the relationship kind of revolves around the widower, and the person that's dating them feels like they’re living in the shadow of a ghost.” (26:50-27:08 | Abel)
• ‘If you marry a widower, you can be number one in his heart, but there's always going to be…this reminder that there's someone else there.” (28:42-29:03 | Abel)
• “You've got to reach a point where you can kind of say goodbye to your late spouse, where you can put some of that stuff away and open your heart again. It's wonderful to do.I love my Chapter Two, it's easily the best years of my life, but it's hard to get there.” (47:02-47:20 | Abel)

Links

Connect with Abel Keogh:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abelkeoghbooks

Instagram: @abelkeogh

Twitter: @abelkeogh

YouTube: @datingawidower https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpXeMMk-_IcJMLVQwND4zHw

Email: www.abelkeogh.com/contact

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Transcript

Matt: 0:30

Welcome to another episode of the Solo Dad podcast. I am super excited and honored and privileged and usually also very humbled to have this gentleman on our uh show today. Abel is a widower, author of six books in the widowhoodness area, blogger, host of the YouTube channel Widower Wednesdays, which I would highly recommend if you're hearing this that you go check it out because it is fantastic. Husband, father of seven, and now a relationship coach as well. Abel, welcome. Thank you for taking time out of your day and being here. So welcome.

Abel: 1:09

Thanks, Matthew. Happy to be here.

Matt: 1:11

Now I stumbled onto you like I was saying right before we press recorded, probably about four years ago after my wife died, and obviously, as you probably did 21 years ago, which is I think we had a gentleman, Jim, on when he lost his first wife. He goes, I went into Barnes and Noble. And for you younger people out there, that's a bookstore. And um and went in to try to find books that just had widower in it. And he goes, There was one book written by a woman that had a chapter on widowers, and that was it. And he was like, you know, I kind of hodgepodgy things together to figure it out. And I'm sure that was your experience as well 21 years ago, right?

Abel: 1:45

Yeah. In fact, uh, I mean, not only could I not, not only was there nothing in the bookstores, I mean, this was when the internet was in its infancy. So, you know, I'd be, you know, Googling. This is when Google was new too. I was Googling stuff and there was nothing out there. I mean, it was, it was just, you know, there was no resources whatsoever. Um, and so it was me just making stuff up as I went. I mean, I just felt so alone and that there was absolutely nobody understood it, and there was no resources for me. It was just, I just I just remember feeling so uh alone. So I'm I'm glad there's more resources now out there.

Matt: 2:19

Right. It's I think it's uh one of those good things, but also sad that it has to exist, kind of like Widower Wednesdays or the Solo Dad podcast. We're like, I'm glad it's here, but I'm sad it has to exist. Real quick, let's 21 years ago, how did you get moved into the unfortunate neighborhood of widowhoodness, as sometimes we call it?

Abel: 2:37

Yeah, so my uh late wife, Krista, uh, she took her own life uh 21 years ago when she was uh seven months pregnant. So that got me unfortunately into this chapter, and I was young. I was 26 years old at the time when it happened.

Matt: 2:52

Well, as we say, I'm I'm sorry for your loss and uh all that you went through 21 years ago, but here you are now. Obviously, are you surviving with seven kids? Are you just like existing? I mean, that is that is zone defense to a whole new level, but obviously tell tell me a little bit because I really want to get into all the resources you provide, but tell me just a little bit because people can go also hear it, about your your finding your your current wife and the family you have now, because I think that's awesome.

Abel: 3:26

Yeah, so I met my I w I met my my current wife, Juliana. I met her uh probably six or seven months after I was widowed, and then we ended up getting married about nine months later. And uh yeah, we have seven kids, and um uh yeah, it keeps me busy, but it keeps me alive and keeps me going. I mean, there's never you know a dull moment at our house. There's always something to do and something to you know be doing. And so yes, it's it's crazy, but it's a wonderful kind of crazy.

Matt: 3:55

I love it, I love it. And they are 18 to 7, right? So you are in full-blown, just everybody's doing everything all the time.

Abel: 4:02

Yeah, yeah. It's yeah, it's busy. Everything from, you know, what we have one out of the house now, but you know, from high school to elementary school, we have kids in there and you know, all the range of activities to go with it.

Matt: 4:12

I love it. So as you were stumbling, we'll go back 21 years ago, we'll go, we'll go 20 years ago. So, like as you were stumbling through being widowed at such a young age, and when did you start to really kind of produce what are Wednesdays and then your first book? And we can kind of go down that chronological order. I think it's a good way to go.

Abel: 4:35

Yeah, well, I started uh blogging anonymously uh in 2002. So this was a few months after my uh late wife died. There was a site out there called Diary Land. I think it still exists, but it was kind of an early blog thing. And so I just started blogging anonymously about my story, and really, I guess it was kind of a therapy for me is I'd actually be at work, and then on my lunch break, I would just kind of sit there at my computer and just type up what happened the previous day. So, you know, I I really wasn't writing for anybody other than myself. I was just like, well, you know, this is my day and this is what's happened, and and started getting in into some dating stories. And and the blog, or I I I guess you can call it a blog back then, it really took off and became popular. And, you know, again, I wasn't trying to push it. I wasn't telling, I mean, I didn't tell anybody that I knew uh that you know, that I had this, you know, the site going, but people kind of stumbled on it and it took off in popularity. That's kind of how it started. It was, and again, I was anonymous, nobody knew who I was. You know, I was just, you know, I just was doing this and just kind of you know, chronicling my day, and people just started saying, wow, this is so real, this is so raw, you know, I enjoy reading it. And I was kind of to be honest, I was uh a little surprised by that. I was like, who wants to read my story? You know, I just have this story. Um, but I you know, I kept kind of doing it. And then as I got into dating, you know, I was telling all these horrible dating stories that I have, or all these moments, you know, which is a thing for sure, for sure, right?

Matt: 6:01

Yeah.

Abel: 6:01

It's like, hey, I went on my first date and it was awkward and awful, and you know, this is kind of the stuff. And as I was kind of sharing stories and getting maybe a little bit into my relationship with Juliana, I got an email from someone saying, Hey, I'm dating a widower and he's acting this way. Can you explain what's going on? And I remember kind of looking at the email and saying, Why on earth are you emailing me? You know, and so so you know, I just kind of I I can't even re remember what I replied. I replied to the email and thought, well, that was kind of weird. And then um a few weeks later, another email came in, hey, I'm dating this guy, you know, and so so kind of by default, I became uh, you know, people were were uh reaching out for me because they were, you know, I guess I was the only resource at the time out there where there were dating widowers. And you know, they're like, this guy's acting weird, you know, I've never dated this before. Kind of give me some advice here. And you know, they didn't even know who I was. It was just, you know, again, I was an uh anonymous.

Matt: 6:58

Anonymous, right?

Abel: 6:59

Wow. So I had kind of this throwaway email address, and but I kept, you know, it started kind of as a trickle, but then it became it became a steady flow of people, mostly women, asking me, well, you know, help me out here.

Matt: 7:14

Well, right. I mean, but they were just I think it's twofold, right? One, you have the perspective, and two, it was a vacuum. Like, even if they were trying to go find books that had the title widower in it, back 20, 21 years ago, they would have found nothing. And that's a little bit of the antithesis behind the podcast was there are a couple of really great podcasts. One's called the Widower Journey, and he's awesome. He's a little more seasoned than you or I, and I was like, this is not helping me at all. Like it's not talking about me being young and having to change diapers and where I was at. And I was like, and then of course our single dad podcast, which I've co-parented a 19-year-old, I've been a single dad, that's a totally different journey. And I'm like, that doesn't help me either. Like, I don't have weekends off anymore. Like, I need and it wasn't. And then as kind of as you are are referencing too, as I put it out there, I'm like, I didn't do it anonymously, which now I'm thinking it may have been better if I had, but people just gravitated towards like I'm so thankful this exists for me. And because guys also struggle to even use the word help, right? And actually, I was writing down what you're saying anonymous. That I I think I may ask some guys if they want to chronicle their journey to maybe do it on a place like that, because I think the anonymous part also makes you a little more available, right? Like it to have a conversation because it's not as intimidating and they're just reaching out to this person that they have a connection with from what you'd shared. That's really awesome. And I also would I would do you do you know if that is it still up? Like, could I go read it now? Do you think?

Abel: 8:52

Yeah, I don't know. I would uh I I would have to look, but we can I I was just curious if I I can track it down for you.

Matt: 9:00

That would be well, even just maybe a couple of the original posts because what you said in there and it was almost like you threw it away, but I think it's very true, which is I have also found through general social media that I have some posts about the podcast or something I've planned, and they do fine. But if I do one for my car crying, it's really authentic, and people connect with that. It's not that we're not being authentic, but it's I think in that moment, and I think you know, you on your lunch break talking about where you're at in that moment, that's really awesome. I think it's really powerful because as time goes, as you know this, 21 years, the perspective changes a little bit and the emotions change a little bit, and you have a different lens now. So even you know, talking about your first date being awkward now is one thing, but talking about it the day after it happens is very different. So that's awesome. I if you happen to find it, that would be great. I would just be not to share it, it'd be really interesting to see what your perspective was. So by default, you kind of become this go-to person, and and I should have done just slightly better homework. What was the first book you wrote?

Abel: 10:03

So the book the first book I wrote was Room for Two, and that was kind of my story of just you know, of uh being widowed and and how I met Julie and basically a lot of my horrible dating experiences and things like that. Um I um I wrote it just kind of thinking, you know, and actually, and so the whole book takes place from the day my my uh late wife died until a year, until the the year anniversary of her death. So it's all just kind of uh uh contained within that. So it doesn't go past that, but it's really it's basically how I kind of opened my heart and started a new life. It doesn't like complete the journey, so to speak, that one of my other books does that, but it's really uh it's just really the first year of being widowed and me trying to, you know, to figure stuff out as we talked about without any really guidance or direction. You know, again, you know, had you know, not knowing anybody um who had been widowed, especially at a young age, not knowing anybody, you know, who I could talk to, you know, even like a therapist. I remember, you know, my mom saying, Oh, you should go talk to a therapist or something. I'm sitting there thinking, how on earth is a therapist going to relate to my through? You know what I mean?

Matt: 11:17

I remember my first, because again, she was only 13 months, and so we'll go, it was probably about a year. And I'm like, I gotta talk to a family therapist. Like, I like this kid's you know crying for a mom she doesn't know existed, or whatever. And so I reach out, and this is pandemic, so it's all Zoom. This lady's crying and she's like, You're doing such a great job. I'm like, you're not helping. Like she's like, I don't know what to tell you, you're doing all the right. I was like, okay, yeah, you don't get it. All right, I'm just I'll just I guess I'll go fuddle along and figure it out. So, first book, first year, which actually I don't know if you did that intentionally, but that's really cool because I know we both know timelines don't matter in grief, but there is something about the first year of getting through all the first and not saying they're better or worse, and some people say the second's worse than the first because you know what's going on in the first, and I'd say the fourth isn't much better than the 20th either. They're all uniquely different in our grieving and mourning. And I even I looked up the word lamenting too, because they're all a little bit different of what you're doing emotionally with those words. So you re write the first book, you meet a lovely lady. When did kind of the the coaching and the relationship part and for guys, or and I'm assuming you also do widows as well, help them as well. When did that kind of come in the mix of the books and everything else?

Abel: 12:29

Yeah, so after I wrote that book, um, I wrote um a couple of dating guides for women who were dating widowers. Uh, you know, the main one is dating a widower. And mostly again, this wasn't, you know, I really wasn't thinking about being a coach at this time, but it came down to, again, being the only real resource out there, especially from the perspective of a man, writing. So again, it's like a lot of the feedback I got is you're the only guy that's writing about this. And and so I thought, well, maybe if I write a book, I'll answer these questions and people will stop emailing me. That was just kind of my thought process.

Matt: 12:59

Actually, I was thinking the same, like, let me just do a repeatable, digestible, but just here, read this and leave me alone. I've got seven kids now.

Abel: 13:09

Yeah. So, you know, it it wasn't that I didn't mind the emails, but it was it it really was, it was just like, well, okay, you know, you know, they're saying they need something, so I'll write something and then I can just kind of be done with it. And so I wrote the first book, and it sold, you know, well, it's it still sells well, but you know, it sold well. And then I even got more emails, and then they're like, Well, what about a book about this? And what about a book about that? And so it just kind of evolved into these series of books where you know, people, you know, it was really trying just to meet the demand that was out there. And so eventually it evolved into the ultimate dating guide for widowers because you know, after writing a couple for the ladies, yeah, you know, they were like, Well, you need to write one so I can give it to the guy I'm dating because he doesn't know what he's doing, you know.

Matt: 13:46

So none of us do. We don't, as guys, we figured out right about a week before we go. Like we finally gave an aha, and then we we write off into the sunset. Was this the third one, the ultimate dating guide to the widower, or was there some others in between there?

Abel: 13:59

Fourth or fifth one. I I wrote uh I wrote dating a widower, then marrying a widower again. My initial audience was women who were dating widowers, but then they were like, you know, and and I was hearing from guys that there was nothing out there too, but really was, you know, they're like, I want to give him something, and can you write something for him? And so like, you know, I I had to kind of think about it, but uh eventually like, yeah, I can do this. And so I wrote the ultimate dating guide for uh widowers, which you know, which I guess a lot of women read as well. I get feedback on that too.

Matt: 14:26

So I mean, it is I I I mean, I think I think you saw I did like a review of it chapter by and it just gave me something to talk about on the social medias, but I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, and man, I absolutely we talk about everything you talk about on the podcast. We've touched on a bunch of these. Some guys are doing these without really knowing it. Some guys I have said, go read this as a reference. You know, as we both know, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, they're on their own journey. It's not a one size fits all. Some things don't work for some people, but I'm like, this touches on all the things I think, and I think you would agree of the things that if you want to have a successful and whatever you want to call it, I don't like chapter two, but we'll go ahead and use it. Your next wife, because we're speaking for guys right now, if you want to have a successful one, there's things about intentionality and and you know, why are you doing it and the consideration if you have kids or if you didn't, how do you do that? Like you touch on so many of it, and I'm I'm so thankful you did it that way. Did you reflect back on your dating journey as well? What kind of built out these because I'm gonna flip it? You probably know better than I do. The um nine, the nine, uh, the nine parts of it.

Abel: 15:34

Was it just kind of you reflecting or it was a it was a combination of me reflecting, but again, a lot of it just you know, talking to lots of women who were dating widowers and seeing the issues over and over. It was just, you know, it's a pattern. And yeah, you know, you can say that it maybe doesn't apply to everybody, everybody's different. But when I see these issues over and over and over again, you know, I'm uh that's what are that's what I really tried to do was hit on the key issues that the women were telling me that I'm dating this guy, and here are the, you know, here's the issues. And you know, there was whatever, eight or nine issues that come up again and again and again. So even when I'm doing coaching sessions today, it's you know, a lot of the times it's the same issues. I mean, I've had calls where it's been back to back-to-back calls, and it's like I've said the same thing just three times three or four times in a row because right, yeah. There's kind of these universal issues that are out there that apply to most of the guys that are uh dating again. So that's so that's really where a lot of it came from. It's talking to the women that are dating them. And and my own experience is in there a bit, and yes, you know, some you know, I did draw on that, but it's kind of a mix of uh of both of those.

Matt: 16:35

I makes total sense because again, earlier today I was talking to somebody and I said, I feel repetitive when we chat because I'm referencing the same whatever three, four, eight things, and I'm like it and they're like, but no, well, what about this? And I was like, right, that's a thing in grief, and here's here's some ideas of how to deal with that, and it's unique to them because it's new and it's fresh and it's it's a new thing for them, but there's a reoccurring theme there, and again, especially I and I'm curious if you you want to talk about this, like the direction they're heading in their life, right? Like I have like we I maybe right before I press record, I can't remember now. But we have some amazing dads in the group that are just existing, they've survived the event and they're just existing, and it's like if you could just if you want to nudge your compass, do you find like when you talk to either both like that they're stuck and that they need because they haven't done it for a while, or like because I I feel like guys get in this idea where like it's unique to them, they gotta hunker down, they gotta take care of business, and it's like, well, it is. But look at Abel and I'm just gonna rattle off. But a hundred thousand other guys that have found a way back to living and loving again. When you're talking to guys, do you find that they're kind of stuck in that? Or like, yeah, I'm just kind of Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Abel: 18:00

I see it, yeah. It's like some of them, I think the guys that I talk to, they want to move, you know, there there's this, there's this maybe spark inside of them where they kind of want to move forward, but they don't know how to do it. And again, I think it comes down to there's not a lot of reference material out there, or even like within their social circle, again, you know, it's like who to you, it's it's like I can't go to my friend and say, hey, what did you do when your wife died? You know, that's not something that's not you know, that's not uh that's not a conversation that they can have. And so I think it's you know, and guys tend to be, you know, they you know, they're less talkative about that kind of stuff anyway. And so, and so yeah, so a lot of times when I'm talking to uh widowers who are looking to, you know, start chapter two, you know, you know, uh so to speak, it's really is trying to, they're looking for some kind of direction. It's like, well, how do I start and what do I think about? And um, I kind of addressed that in the book a little bit, but it's you know, it's really trying to get them in the mind frame of thinking, well, what do you want your life to be like? That's really what it is. You know, it's like everybody has a different chapter that they want. You know, I you know, my chapter two is going to be different than your chapter two or someone else's chapter two, but it's really trying to run through some thought exercises in, well, what do you what is it that you need at this point in your life? Because what's because what you need now is different than you needed 10 years ago, right?

Matt: 19:19

When you got married 100%, right?

Abel: 19:21

So it's really trying to get them to really think about what do I need at this point in my life, and just trying to get them to think that it's different now and it's okay that it's different. Uh, because the issue I see when when guys start dating again is you know, there's this analogy I like to use that men view that their life is broken, and so men are fixers, and so you know, how do I fix my life? Well, I'll start dating again, and that's great, but that doesn't necessarily fix your life, right? That that doesn't fix your problem.

Matt: 19:50

You have a much better way of saying it than I do, which I I always go like jokingly with one of my co hosts, Ben. I'm like, how are all these guys like specifically? I'm lamenting on divorce guys, but I'm like Like, how are these guys? Are they just going to a bow bowling alley and meeting Sandra and she happens to be there three Saturdays in a row and she's making her, you know, your kids' pancakes and you get married? I'm like, I don't understand because they're fixing their life, right? They're like, well, this will work with no real thought behind what maybe some. I'm sure Sandra at the bowling alley is lovely. I always throw that disclaimer out there. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But I like your way better of saying fixing and let me fix this by kind of putting something into it without a lot of thought behind it, right? Or if they were in a we talk about this too, if they were in a really good relationship and their wife has passed, well, the last time I dated, it ended up pretty well. And I learned this the hard way. Let me put in the same things I did last time to meet my wife. Oh, guess what? When I met my wife, I was in my 30s. I had a kid. Now I'm in my 40s with two kids and I'm widowed. I'm a vastly different person than I was, which is bizarre to think about, right? And you go like, so your needs, like you're saying, your needs, wants, and desires are very different now. And that's okay. And I think that's a big what you said, it's a big chunk of guys accepting even though this is different and changed and it's nothing we wanted or we sought out to create, it is true. And I think, and let me tell tell me if I'm way off, this at the right pace of accepting that is a big step on then being able to do whatever's next for you.

Abel: 21:23

Yeah, so yeah. It's yeah, it's figuring out that pace. And then, you know, once you have a general idea of what you want, that way you're not just, you know, you're not attaching yourself to the first pretty face that comes along and oh, hey, you're cute, you know. It's you know, you're actually thinking, you know, you're actually have maybe you're dating a little more intentionally and see and and kind of thinking things through. So, you know, you you can kind of I don't know, it makes the experience a a little bit better for you and the person you're dating if you kind of know what it is that you want.

Matt: 21:51

Hey there, friends and family, followers both near and far, and our tribe of allies in the solo dad community. Wanted to break away from the conversation for just a few minutes to remind you that the Solo Dad is wherever you may be roaming online. We are on Instagram and TikTok with the handle Solo Dad. If you or someone you know would like to join a supportive community and you are a widower, we have a Facebook group. The name of the Facebook group is Solo Dad, a group for grieving widowers who are trying to parent. If you want to reach out to us directly, we can be reached at SoloDadpodcast at gmail.com. If you found any of these conversations interesting, insightful, maybe entertaining, we would love a mention on social media or take a moment and review us on iTunes. I want to take a moment to also remind you that this is not a one-person show. We have a friend, a supporter, and an ally at Hivecast.fm. Dax listened to the show, likes what we're doing for solo dads, and reached out. He and his team are now doing my show notes. They are doing the audio files for the pre-launch. They're also the ones that are doing those great graphics that you're now seeing. They have taken so many things off of my to-do list. It is now allowing me to focus on more content, more interviews in the Solo Dad community. If you are doing a podcast or thinking of doing a podcast, schedule your free one-on-one call with Dax and his team. Let them know that the Solo Dad sent you and that we think they're fantastic. They have several different options and several other helpful things they can do for you, everything from helping with YouTube channel to marketing to editing. That is hivecast.fm for your podcast support and needs. Lastly, I want to make sure I give my humble thanks and gratitude for all of the support and all of you that have listened. We still hope you find these conversations insightful, useful. Maybe you'll laugh, maybe you'll cry. Thank you for being there with us. Thank you to all the dads that have volunteered their time to be on these shows and share what is one of the most difficult journeys they'll ever be on. As always, thank you for listening. And let's get back to the conversation. But intentionality was a word she used a lot, and now I have it, and I'm like, man, it's a really good word for a lot of stuff. So you wrote the the ultimate dating guide for widowers. I want to put it the other way around, but it's fine. So now which one did you and your now wife write? Is it room for two or is it the the No, it's the wife in the next life. Okay, so the room for two, that's you talking about now, right? Or getting married, uh, post-marriage.

Abel: 25:15

Yeah, that's so room for two is the first year of my life after being widowed. And that's really kind of figuring out how to make room in my heart for somebody else.

Matt: 25:23

Perfect. And then now, and I know there's other books about dating a widower and those, and and people, if they want, they can check those out. There'll be links in the show, all that fun stuff. But I want to talk about you guys co-writing The Wife in the Next Life.

Abel: 25:35

That was a book that actually took a long time to write because you know, part of it is just both of us writing it, but I think it kind of opened up a lot of emotions and a lot of feelings that you know that we thought we had kind of put to bed a little bit. And and I and I think anytime you write something like this, you know, you have to kind of go and kind of dredge up stuff that you haven't thought about in a long time. And so, you know, there was times I think we were both writing it or editing it, editing it, and we kind of had to put it to the side for a few days, just like, okay, you know, we gotta, you know, we're gonna come back to this later when we can kind of, you know, you know, kind of get our emotions out and do it like that. But really, kind of the reason I wrote that is uh again, I think one of the things I see is that when somebody is widowed and dating again, the relationship in a way kind of becomes all about them to some extent because, you know, and and not intentionally, but you know, you're dealing, you know, whether you're the widowed person or the other person, most of the time you're dealing with a lot of issues that you haven't thought about before. You're dealing with issues that you haven't um, you know, really thought about and you know, worked through well, what do I do when there's pictures on the wall? You know, he's wearing a ring on his finger. What do I do? You know, these are all great. Yep. Yeah, these are things that you don't think about. And so a lot of the times I see is that the relationship kind of comes, it kind of revolves around the uh widower and the person that's dating them is kind of left to the side and thinking about well, what are the thoughts and feelings that they have to go through? You know, oftentimes they feel compared, they feel like number two, they feel like I'm living in the shadow of a ghost. And so writing this was trying to get both sides of it out there and showing how we worked through and navigating some of these issues. And again, you know, understanding that when we were navigating this, she had no support either.

Matt: 27:19

You know, it wasn't like now where you, you know, where, you know, you know, you know, there are she didn't have a she didn't have a whole group of people in the community or at church or whatever that were under the age of say 50 that were widow widows as well, like or dating a widower, right? She didn't know, like, wow, yeah, that's an interesting perspective too. I would say early on when I tried to date, I've taken a pause. I I it was definitely about me because I was like, I'm the one that lost somebody. You're fine. Like you have I'm thinking to myself right now, yeah, I didn't. That was not nice of me, probably. Like, but uh, you also make another good point where some of the stuff doesn't come up because if you're walking around your house and you're not bringing anyone new to the house, why would you think about the pictures? Maybe now that we're mentioning it, you might, but like it's a thing until someone else brings it to your attention that's important in your life. So I think that there's a lot in there. What did you, besides the emotional, hopefully healing you guys went through that are better now, were like, was there anything really like big for you that you uncovered? You're like, wow, I thought I'd kind of, as you were kind of revisiting the journey with your wife?

Abel: 28:20

I think it was just really, I think in some ways I had just kind of forgotten how big some of these issues were to Julie. And how even though, you know, we've been married for 20 years and you know, we have seven kids and we have a great marriage, that even now, every once in a while, some of these image, some of these issues just kind of resurface themselves. And, you know, and I, you know, I always say in my coaching sessions that, you know, if you marry a widower, um, you know, you can be number one in his heart, but there's always gonna be just something that pops up once in a while, or something like that. And it's just kind of a unique thing. And and again, not that you can't work through it or not that you can't, you know, have a good marriage, but you're just gonna, you know, there's always every once in a while, I guess there's just this reminder that there's someone else there. Does that make sense?

Matt: 29:04

And it's not absolutely well, actually, and you just tweeted something the other day, and I had never thought about this, and I don't want to go way off the I think this is really great for like people, please go follow Abe Abel on Twitter as well. That you talked about somebody singing high praises to their late spouse on social media. And it I you don't have to share too many, but like you basically said what? Like it almost wrecked the relationship, right?

Abel: 29:28

Yeah, yeah. And that's and so it's so it's like, you know, in my coaching sessions and in my books, I've really said you've got to focus on making this new person number one, right? And and and again, not that you should, you know, I'll always love Krista, she'll always have a special place in my heart, but 99.6% of my heart is reserved for Juliana. And that's just the way it has to be to make the uh marriage work. And but what you see is that, and uh is you see, especially in the widowed community, is they get into a serious relationship, but then they're posting about their late husband or their late wife on social media, and it's like, oh, I miss this person. And that is honestly the most toxic thing you can do to a relationship. Because again, it goes back to this is again why we wrote the wife of the next life. It's does no one think of the other person on the end of it? You know, it's like it's like you're you know, you know, it's almost like the persona non grata, right?

Matt: 30:16

Like the new person doesn't even exist, right?

Abel: 30:19

Yeah, and so in the incident I'm talking about, it's it's you know, it was interesting. I, you know, there's this, you know, I again, you know, I follow a lot of groups on social media, but I'm friends with this one person, and you know, it's you know, every three or four months she's posting about her late husband on social media. And I've got to sit there and just think, I was like, are you kidding me? You know, because I just think she's married to this guy. I'm like, how does the guy feel? And then it's like, you know, uh and then it's like she posts something about how they're kind of temporarily separated. Uh, but at least she's honest enough to point out that there were, you know, there's issues involved with her being a widow in it.

Matt: 30:54

You know, she's not, you know, well, I mean, yeah, but still, right.

Abel: 30:58

But but but still, you know, I just kind of I I kind of read that. I'm just like, it's just kind of in in some ways, it's like a self-inflicted wound. Does that make sense?

Matt: 31:05

Because I can how many women self-sabotaging, right? Like you don't want it to work out by yeah.

Abel: 31:10

Yeah, it's like, you know, I talk to so many women who, again, understand that yes, he's always going to love his late wife. I'm okay with that. But then it's like, you know, he's put, you know, he sings this, you know, praises to their late spouse on social media, but it's like he's never said anything about me like that on social media.

Matt: 31:26

It's like where it's a good one too. I the minute you you put that on Twitter, I thought about it and I was like, you know, right now I can do it because I'm not in a relationship. I can say all the wonderful things. And then I immediately thought, you know where the safe space is to do this? Two places. We have a special group that is literally just of my wife's friends, and they knew her way longer than I did. So I can share things there. I can share things through text to my family, right? Just in like a little private, not behind the back, but like look how great is usually about their granddaughter. But anyway, or in widower groups, because your person may not be in that group. Maybe they are if you're dating a widower, but like there are places where if you need to kind of get it out, I was like, there is a safe, but I you're right. It would if I if I was in that, it would, you know what? I think grief does not dismiss all social uh etiquette. I'm thinking to myself, if you had a breakup with somebody and then eight months later you're posting how wonderful they were, even though it didn't work out in your current significant other's like, what in the world is this? Like, I'm glad you guys get along, but uh, I'm here. Hello, right? Like, yeah, it'd be a little weird. So I think grief and death doesn't dismiss all social uh etiquette for sure.

Abel: 32:37

Yeah. And I tell, you know, I tell my uh clients, as you know, those who are dating widowed people, I say, you need to expect the same behavior from you know from the widow or widower as you would a single or divorced guy. There's no reason that you should lower your expectations or lower what did you expect just because they lost a spouse. And that, you know, and that goes for us too. Again, it's you know, yes, it's losing a spouse is horrible, it's sad, it's rough, but at the same time, um, you know, it's like, why should, you know, why should you be able to get away with bad behavior just because you lost a spouse, right?

Matt: 33:08

I agree. And I would put an asterisk, anyone listening, if you're inside of like the first year, uh don't worry about it. Like, like, like you're gonna you're gonna be like, no, I'm gonna love my wife for my other person forever, and I'm always gonna, yep, that that's okay. You're in that space. Maybe listen to this in another like eight, nine months. Um, but I yes, because I'm thinking to myself in the first year someone said, you know, to me, like, you're not getting there, the new person's gonna have to set boundaries about what you can and can't say about Marcy, and I'd be like, no, that makes sense because they have feelings, or I hope they do, otherwise, they'd be a psychopath. What was there anything else about the wife in the next life? Was there anything else that was like an aha moment that you now are using as like an example? I mean, I know you talk about the feelings part. Was there anything as far as like her perspective that you maybe either forgotten about or that me, if I'm if I'm gonna go date someone who's not widowed, like, hey, you may want to think about because this is really gonna be a thing ad infinitum if you turn it into a successful relationship?

Abel: 34:09

Yeah, I think I think the other thing that's uh uh that stood out is just how difficult it is for them to bring up to kind of set boundaries, and not that setting boundaries are hard, but like, you know, there's you know, there's a there's a story in there where I'm, you know, when I'm dating Julie, um, I've got a chain around my neck and I got my you know my wedding band on a chain around my neck. And I and you know, I'm kind of oblivious to how this affects her. And you know, she has a whole chapter with this, you know, where she's really talking about this bothers me to death. And she's wondering, can I do this? And then it's like, you know, and the hardest part is is is like, how do I bring this up? How do I talk about this? People thinking that I'm jealous, that I'm being petty, uh, that you know, that I hate his late wife or something like that. I think it's just understanding that, you know, it I've I mean, honestly, I haven't talked to anybody who where this is hard because they're like, you know, I want to tell them that I want to be number one, but how do I do that without becoming, you know, looking like I don't care or that I don't, you know, people that are dating a um a widowed person really have to walk this a tightrope, you know, and it's it isn't something you see in other relationships because again, most of them are accepting of the fact that you love somebody else, but it's like, how do I set boundaries or how do I say I want to be number one without coming across looking like a jerk, you know?

Matt: 35:30

You know, and really, really good point, actually. Like I'm now creating empathy right now for people who like I think of some of my widowed guys in our in my in our group and that are dating, and I'm like, oh, it's going great. And I'm like, oh, that poor lady. Like I we have to make a couple of posts about hey guys, uh uh be nice because they're really going like we go through a lot, they're going through a lot on their own and with us as well, like you know, if they're sharing a little bit of the grief and the loss. Um, that's a really because you know, in anything else, any other we'll say failed relationships, whatever, that there you you wouldn't have been wearing a ring around your neck had you broken up with your high school sweetheart or whatever, right? It would have been people have been like, dude, that's odd, you probably should move on. But because grief and widowness gives you a little bit of latitude, but you're right, the other person, if they were to say something, even in the most loving, compassionate, empathetic, sympathy way, there's a tinge of like, who do you think you are talking about my dead wife, right? Like, I'm thinking myself, I'm like, what do you mean I can't? Um yeah, that's a really I that's an and it's and it's a thing too. I I think that's an important part for us in that are the ber bereaved, bereft, I never know which one to use. Um, to realize that even though we're not gonna feel that unless they're wearing a wearing of something, but anyway, if we're not gonna feel that, it doesn't mean it's not real for them and it's not coming from hopefully not a place of disrespect or trying to be mean. I mean, there are people that are that way, but that's a really good point.

Abel: 37:09

Yeah, and I, you know, and when I coach people, I kind of talk to them how to frame the discussion, right? You know, you know, I think there's a good way to actually go in and and uh frame it. But even if you frame it right, it's still this thing of just the worry I hear from people is like, well, if I even bring this up, is he gonna dump me? Is he gonna say I don't care and things like that? And so I think it's you know important for those who understand that, you know, 99% of the time where they're bringing this up, the issue isn't about, you know, it's not about the late wife. It's about your relationship and this new relationship that you have. And it's you know, it's about them wanting the same love and respect that you gave your life, your late wife. And I don't think they're asking too much by that.

Matt: 37:47

I think that's the exact amount they should be asking for, right? If it's if it's turning into a a long-term fruitful relationship, they should not be asking for an ounce less than what we gave our last person because hopefully we gave our last person everything we had as well. Like I think that's a I don't enjoy, but I am quite honored at times when my younger one asks me about, you know, like, well, how does this all work? And where's mom? And there's a video I did, and it was all impromptu. And I was basically I just stumbled onto the fact I'm like, you know how you like you love your grandparents and you love your sister and your heart just holds them all in there? That's how this works. And then afterwards, I'm listening to them, like, oh, that's how this is gonna work when I date again. There's just enough room that just there, it's not a pie that gets divided, it just gets bigger, and that's and they're all in there together, and it's okay. And they shouldn't be expected to be like, Well, can I have my own like give me a lesser slice of the pie you gave your wife? You're like, no, it's just gonna be a bigger pie. Like, it's all gonna be fine. I wanted to also, I kind of got out of out of out of order, but as we kind of come back to like how folks can reach you and follow you when you were dating, because I asked this in the intake notes, and I think you said something powerful here. Is there if there's someone that's starting to date, is there anything that you either woulda, shoulda, coulda done or wish you would have done a little bit differently? And I know you cover a lot in the book, so I don't want to give I don't want to give everything away, but if I could go back. It's not that it didn't end happily. I mean, everything looks like it's going, you know, seven kids, nice wife, everything's right. Like, but we all can learn.

Abel: 39:19

Yeah, well, you know, it g again, it was a journey to uh get there, right? It was a journey, you know, a lot of awkward dates, um, a failed relationship before I met Julie and you know, one that kind of crashed and burned there. But um, but I think it would just be, you know, is I mean, honestly, is just understand that, you know, there's nothing wrong with dating again. You know, I think it's having that, you know, it's the don't feel guilty for doing what it is that you're doing. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with opening your heart again, but you've really got to be to a point, I think, where you can, you know, where you're ready to to open your heart, if that makes sense.

Matt: 39:52

Absolutely. And I think again, I haven't read all of your all of the books, but I know you address that in the ultimate dating guide as well. Like you Talk about how to explore opening your heart and what it means to open your heart and what that may look and feel like to the individual. And I I really appreciated that. What is there anything? And and I kind of phrased it this way in the intake, and I always like to ask this one as well because it's a little perverse, but I think it's a good question to ask. At such a young age and in such a double traumatic way, both your wife and your your unborn child, what has that loss taught you then? And you know, going all the way now, like 20 plus years later, what has it taught you about kind of life? Obviously, you're in the grief space now, but like what did it teach you about life kind of in general?

Abel: 40:35

I think the biggest lesson I got about just how precious relationships are, just how precious life is. I think it's easy, especially, you know, as you get into the groove of a relationship and things settle down and they become normal. I think it's easy to take relationships for granted. You know, you know, that this person's always going to be here, that you know, I have this great life, and my and this great life I have is always gonna be here. And that's not the case. Um, you know, you could have a great life one day and the next day it's gone for whatever reason, you know? And and so I thought I think I I think that was the biggest thing I learned is just how wonderful and precious these relationships are, whether it's with your spouse or your kids or whatever it is. I mean, I'm kind of going through it now. I have a, you know, my oldest kid is out of the house now, and I'm like, wait, how did you grow up so fast?

Matt: 41:16

It happens fast. I mean, I have a 19-year-old that's a freshman in college, and I'm like, didn't we just drive you home from the hospital at seven miles an hour yesterday? Like, I don't understand what's happening here. It is it that part is definitely true. If you could go back to yourself, and I think I asked this in the intake, what were a couple of things maybe that you if or to yourself or to someone right now that let's just say is it a space where they're right of that transition, whether it's been a year or they're thinking about dating, what are some things you might want to share with them about any advice you'd give them, like three things you would tell them about when it comes time to date again? Anything that someone if you didn't have to go Google it, that you may have told yourself.

Abel: 41:55

I think the first one would be to kind of trust your gut. It's it's interesting. We talked earlier about patterns that I see when I talk to people in coaching sessions. And this goes for both people who are dating widowers and the widowed people themselves. I can't tell you how many times it comes up. It's like, I wish I would have listened to that gut feeling that I had and not done this or not said this. And uh so I think I think we kind of have this intuition um about, you know, that maybe this relationship isn't right, or maybe, you know, I shouldn't be doing this, or maybe I'm not ready, or you know, what whatever it is. And I think I think if people listen to their gut more, even if even if you can't pinpoint why, right? I think a lot of times it's like, you know, I I don't know why it felt wrong, but it just felt wrong. And I think if people listen to their gut more, I think it would avoid situations and things that might you might come to regret later or getting into a relationship too early, things like that. It's it's that's something constant I hear over and over again, is you know, when it comes to the next chapter, follow your gut and you know, maybe give your gut some time to figure things out. But uh, you know, it's just like when I was in the relationship before I met Julie between you know, Krista and Julie, it was a short-lived relationship, but I it never felt right. And you know, and then and inside I'm thinking, well, you know, my you know, my wife's only been dead like five months. Um, you know, there's all this other stuff going on.

Matt: 43:12

All the reasons not to trust your gut, right? All these logical reasons of why, of course I'm feeling this way. Right, right.

Abel: 43:18

And then so it's like I'm emotional. There's just, you know, you know, I'm you know, I'm going through a lot of changes in my life. And and so I just kind of brushed it aside. And if I had listened to that, um, you know, I you know, I probably, you know, I mean, honestly, if I had actually listened to it, I never would even would have dated the person past one day. You know what I mean? It just would have, you know, the one and done thing. But I think sometimes, you know, where again we're you know, where we've suffered loss and we're trying to just get our um I don't know, I don't know, find our balance again, right? You know, you know, and figure things out. Um, uh, you know, our gut is still there. And I think sometimes it's easy to brush it aside just because we have so many emotions and so many other things going on. So I think if you can hone in on that, it'll save you a lot of heartache moving forward.

Matt: 44:01

I think that's I I love the trust your gut thing because I think I fell in that category of like, well, it's been, I'm just gonna pick it, had been almost two years. I'm like, let me go try this dating thing out again because I don't know. Which I think that tells you that I was like, uh, it didn't help getting ghosted on the first date either. Completely 100% stood up, which that that that was a blow to ego, but that's a different story. But looking back, I tried and then I pulled back, and then some life events happened. And I looking back, almost exactly what you're saying, it was like none of those dates, no matter how wonderful the people were, were ever gonna quite work out because I just wasn't. And what's interesting is I thought back about some people that I went on more than one date with, and they had their own way of explaining to me how like there was a part of me that wasn't available. And I'm like, I'm here, what are you talking? And then now I'm realizing, oh, they were being a reflection back of like, it's great that you're here, it's great you're engaging, it's great you showed up, that's all wonderful, but there's something that you're just not completely open to yet, open my heart yet. And I I again probably I mean, we had some nice dinners and stuff, so I don't know if it's a total waste of time, but it trust your gut, right? Which I think was uh and I I remember doing the same thing. No, I'm feeling this way, I feel guilty because it's not my wife. I feel awkward because it's too soon or whatever it was, and I remember going like we'll just we'll I'll butt fuddle through it, and definitely got some feedback that they were picking up on something for sure, which is I love I like that. I want to ask this one last question, and if if it it wasn't an intake and I was kind of kind of tweaking it a little bit, but and then we'll talk about how to get a hold of you and all that good stuff. Any advice, and I like this little phrase that I've kind of stumbled upon that you would give somebody that's in that spot of they've survived, they're now existing, they're you know, whatever, they're they're back working their job, their grief brain is kind of diminished a little, or they've figured out how to take care of their kids and all that good stuff. That transition from existing to like probably opening your heart and and kind of living again and maybe even finding love. Is there anything kind of gave some advice to the first yearers, if you will, anybody that's in that kind of realm, any just one little anything that you could maybe drop a little bit of knowledge or anything that you see a pattern or something? I don't know.

Abel: 46:15

I think if you want to fully make the uh transition, you got to understand it's gonna take work. It's not something that you just sit back and it happens. It's going to take work, it's gonna take a lot of emotional work, it's going to take, you know, a lot of mental work. It's not something that is just wake up one day and hey, everything's great. You know, I'm gonna I'm uh I'm gonna do that.

Matt: 46:35

Let me jump down. Let me jump not easy, is what you're saying.

Abel: 46:39

Well, again, it comes back to being intentional about it, right? If this is what you want, if this is the, you know, if you want to make the transition, you can make the transition, but like with anything else, you've got to be intentional about it. And it's not a smooth line, you know, it isn't like a rocket ship going straight up. It's like there's ups and downs and ups and downs, but you've got to be trending in the general uh direction of where it is that you want to go, but you've got to be, you know, you've got to reach a point where you can kind of say goodbye to your late spouse. You've got to be, you know, re reach a point where you can put some of that stuff away and open your heart again. And again, it's it's wonderful to do. I mean, I love my chapter too. It's, you know, you know, easily the best years of my life, but it's hard to get there. And it's like anything else worth having in life, it just takes some work to uh get there. So it's you know, it's it's okay if you wake up and like, you know, it's hard and it it's a struggle, but you've got to want it and you've got to work through it.

Matt: 47:33

I I think you saw my reaction. Uh Ken, one of the kind of co-founders who is now engaged to an amazing lady who said almost the exact same thing when I was asking him. Actually, I think it's coming out as we're talking, that he said you have to get you have to go revisit your relationship with your late spouse, get an idea and wrap your head around what it was, and kind of say goodbye to it in the sense of like you're always gonna be there, but I'm just not you're not gonna be in the present in the in the future with me. Like I I love the phrase of we move forward with our people when they're always with us, if you will. But and it he said the same thing, and he really felt that's what and he had actually not a great first relationship for all the reasons we just talked about, and now he's in his second one, and obviously going well because she said yes. But he just talked about the exact same thing about getting into this spot of addressing and thinking about what his relationship was with his wife, and that's what it will only ever be. It can't ever be more, it just was whatever that was, and so I that's amazing that well, it's not shocking. I shouldn't say amazing that you're saying the same thing because you deal with people all the time, which I think is a great segue into if someone wanted to I won't say if, no, I'm gonna be positive when people want to do this work. I have all the links and stuff, but can you tell them where to find you and maybe just a teaser of like what someone could expect from your type of relationship coach, guidance, and counseling?

Abel: 49:07

Sure. Yeah. So the best way to get hold of me is just uh you can go to my website, abelkeo.com, A-B-E-L-K-E-O-G-H.com. You know, there's books, there's information about coaching. I mean, any anything you could ever want to find about anything that we've talked about here, you start on my uh website and it's all there. But for the guys, if I'm if I'm coaching guys, what they can expect, I guess well, it depends on the issue, but most of the time it's it's it's really kind of having a realistic talk about where they are and what it is that they want and how it is that they're going to uh get there. That's really what a lot of my coaching sessions with widowers is. It kind of encompasses that. Um, you know, I've talked to guys that are in relationships, they're like, I don't know what I'm doing, help me out here, you know, and then we're uh then we're kind of evaluating are you really in the relationship for the right reason kind of thing. But you know, but it it could be guys that like, you know, I've been dating, nothing's working, what's going on, or you know, I'm you know, I want to date.

Matt: 50:05

How do I even start all of it?

Abel: 50:07

Yeah, so so it encompasses the whole thing, but it it it really is, it's it's really taking an honest look about where you're at and why, you know, where you want to go and how it is, how what are you willing to do to uh get there? I mean, something I'll talk about all the time is that there's a price to be paid for a new life. There is a price you've got to pay. And the price for everybody is different because our lives are different and you know, and our chapter twos are different, but there is a price you have got to pay for that second chapter. And um, I'll help you evaluate whether or not you're really ready to pay that price.

Matt: 50:40

That's a great way to put it because I I I never really like the word when people say like uh choice, because it always seems very black and white. I like that analogy, and the word I always I've come to enjoy is uh consequences, because consequences are just it's the whole you can't have your cake and eat it too. And it's like you're gonna have to give to get, and and there's a consequence in that. Like you're not gonna lose weight if you eat a large pizza every day. I've tried it, it doesn't work.

Abel: 51:08

Yeah, I always tell people there's no solutions, there's just trade-offs, right? I think a lot of times people, you know, when they start dating again, they think, oh, I have I had this great old life and I'm gonna date somebody and they're just gonna plop into my old life. And it it doesn't work that way. You have really got to start a new life, and there's a price to pay for it. And I'll be honest, I talk to people and some of them are not willing to pay the price, and that's fine. You know, that's fine if you're not willing to pay the price, but don't drag somebody else along with it if you're not willing to pay that price.

Matt: 51:34

That's a really good or and and maybe just not where they're at, right? Like we, I think, you know, I have some amazing dads in our group, and maybe their lives are just way too busy right now, and they're not willing to give up the time with their kids or whatever, and that's okay. They just have to be willing to accept that and not, like you said, drag other people.

Abel: 51:52

Yeah, and be honest with themselves and be honest with the person that you're dating that this is where my life's at right now. And so this is kind of this is this is the kind of relationship I can give you right now. And if that's fine with them, that's great. But I think often it's it's you know, these women are expecting more. And and you know, again, if you're not in a place where you can do it, that's fine. But at least be honest with yourself and the people that you're dating, that this is where I'm at in my life, and this is what I can give you right now, and see how it goes.

Matt: 52:18

Which I think is awesome. Man, Abel, I am so very thankful for the 20-year, 21-year journey that led you here today. Thanks for all the stuff that you've already put out there for us guys in this path. And apparently the women that date us, uh and that unfortunately wind up remarrying or marrying us as well, because God bless them for doing so, because what a sh what an interesting show they're walking into. And so I really, really appreciate it, man. And I hope that we can stay connected. And any of my guys out there, the solo dads, if you are looking for somebody who has a ton of knowledge in this area and you're thinking about wanting to either start a relationship or you're in a relationship, and someone that has firsthand knowledge and has been doing this for a while, I cannot emphasize enough. I think you've heard through our conversation that it'd be definitely worth reaching out to Abel. So thank you, Abel. I really appreciate it.

Abel: 53:19

Thanks, Matthew. I enjoyed being part of your podcast today.