Matt: 0:13

Welcome to the Solo Dad Podcast, where we hold space and gather for widowers to share heartfelt, honest, and open stories of grief. Their insights on navigating the journey after the death of their partner or spouse, loss, healing, and finding their way back to living again. I'm Matt Bradley, your host, and I am honored to join you as we explore the complexities of grief, the challenges of solo parenting, and the struggles of getting back to living. And maybe even some adventures of finding love again. Each episode we'll sit down with courageous dads who are bravely sharing their experiences, insights, and lessons learned along the way on this journey. Sharing how grief has impacted them, their children, and their lives. We might have a crosstalk conversation with widows and widowers sharing their experiences, the similarities, and the differences in grief and being a solo parent. Occasionally we'll have grief experts on to dive deeper into the understanding of grief and healing. So whether you're a solo dad or solo mom or a friend of a solo parent, or you're wanting to just understand more about this journey, you're in the right place. Don't forget to visit our website at solo dad.life for more resources, episode updates, and to connect with our growing community. You can follow us on all the social media platforms, find our group on Facebook, look for us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and on the YouTube page. On YouTube, you can find more content and some behind the scenes moments. Just search the Solo Dad Podcast. And remember, don't forget to subscribe. Lastly, if you've enjoyed what you've heard or found it helpful or insightful, we would appreciate your support. Head on over to buymeacoffee.com slash the Solo Dad Podcast to help keep the show running and fuel our mission of supporting solo dads everywhere and giving them a space to have open and honest conversations. Thank you so much for being here. And let's dive into today's conversation. Welcome to another episode of the Solo Dad Podcast. As always, I like to make sure I express my thanks and gratitude to any solo dad that takes his time to be on this episode and on this podcast. And so I want to say that to you, Nadav, right? Nadav? Am I gonna trail in it? All right. Um Nadav is part of our Facebook group. He also just let me know before we press record that he binge listened to like the first season. So I'm sorry he had to hear my voice for that many hours in a row. But um, hey man, I'm so honored and privileged to have you on. Welcome and how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00: 3:00

Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. Uh yeah, like you said, your podcast was kind of like water in the desert for me. It was it just what I needed at a time when I really didn't know what I needed. So uh I'm happy to be able to come on and tell my story and hopefully my story is helpful to other people.

Matt: 3:17

Well, and and as I mentioned before we press record, like one of the things that was an epiphany for me with someone who listens and and shared their their uh knowledge or whatever they gained from listening was that if it helps one person, it's great. And I think that what I am finding is every guy's story helps someone in some way. I it whether it's the the cancer that the person had, or if it was death by suicide, or if it's they have seven kids and they're going zone defense, or whatever it is, there's something where we we can relate to the person sharing their story. So I have no doubt that your story will um help people as well. So thank you, thank you for being willing to share it. So awesome. Yeah, so let's start with kind of where you are now, and I don't want anyone to uh press fast forward too quick, but definitely uh I look forward to hearing about the story of you becoming an us for sure, man, because it's really cool. Um so yeah, where are you at now with uh years out in kiddos and and all that good stuff?

SPEAKER_00: 4:21

Yeah. So um my wife, Leia, died in November of 2020. She um just real quick the story of how she died. Um, she went to go vote on election day, November 3rd. And as she was walking home, she was hit by a pickup truck um making a left turn and uh was immediately rendered unconscious and died two days later. So in my case, it was a sudden, unexpected death. Um and just past the two and a half year mark just a few weeks ago. Um, you know, the half year doesn't really register anymore. But um, yeah, that's where that's where I am in my grief journey. I've got two sons. They are currently 11 and 8. They were nine and six when she died, and they are uh Eli is my older son and Ty is my younger son. Ty. Ty, yeah, short for Malachi. We give them long names that we never use.

Matt: 5:08

So it's unless they're in serious trouble, right?

SPEAKER_00: 5:11

Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. No, they they make it clear to me. They're like, no, don't call me by that name, call me by my short name.

Matt: 5:16

Please don't do that. It's embarrassing, Dad. Yeah, um, man, you and uh Ken from Canada, it's same very similar. Oh wow, Ken from Canada, his wife was on our morning walk, and if I remember correctly, like pushed her friend out of the way, and basically life flighted to a hospital, and yeah, there was nothing, but yeah, on it. Yeah, yeah. So um, if you hear Ken again, because you know who you know of him, obviously. Yeah, um yeah, he it was the same sort of thing, and and his boy's very similar age, too. I think he might he might only be a couple of years, like same age bracket and same age. So um, yeah. And it I just when I hear those ones that are I just for my own uh words, uh I use terminal because that's what my wife was, but then I realized, well, we're all terminal in some fashion, but anyway, yeah, but terminal versus traumatic, right? Because that's like that instant one that just was out of the blue, or it was kind of not, you know, really unexpected. And they it and I think we can come circle to this, but it'll be interesting to hear how that way impacted your grief journey, right?

SPEAKER_00: 6:23

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, all all loss sucks, right? Yeah, um, but but they're different and they affect you differently. And I think my brain was just in a very weird spot for several months, and I didn't even realize how much it was affecting me. Um, and yeah, so I think like I think I picked up on that early on. Let's take your podcast episodes. I was like, oh, that guy can like he he he's like he's going through something similar to to what I'm going through, or he went through it. Like it'd be it'll be good for me to listen to what what his life's got.

Matt: 6:49

I I would yeah, I would highly recommend anyone to go listen to the podcast several times in a row. That's the best one. So I I really do love the the story of you guys becoming an us because they're just I'm not gonna share everything with everybody, but you were very kind to share a very nice letter that your wife wrote to you early on during dating that was just uh it was it's really awesome, man. Um, and so thank you for sharing that with me. Uh but why don't you walk us through like how you met and kind of the story of becoming us, and then um we'll get to more about where you are now.

SPEAKER_00: 7:23

Sure. Yeah. So, real quick, um, yeah, I shared this letter uh with Matthew. And the, you know, when when somebody dies suddenly, you don't you don't necessarily have like video recordings to go back to. So, you know, I was digging through old letters and old journals and stuff. So it was it was really a uh a gift when I was able to find this thing that she wrote after we've been dating for like a year, and she wrote all this flowery prose about our beautiful love story. So um it's kind of like a love letter from beyond that she wrote to me. Um anyway, yeah, Leia and I met the summer before, summer after graduating from high school. We both had gone into this uh scholarship thing where they selected kids from around the country. She was the kid, one of the kids selected from Washington, DC. I was one of the kids selected from Washington State, and we're both were planning going to the same college, but I was about to go on a gap year, so we weren't gonna end up in the same spot in the same year. Um, and her dad had actually just died from a sudden heart attack. Um yeah. So he had he had left. He was gonna be doing a posting. He worked for um USAID, um, foreign aid organization. And after Leia graduated, his her mom was gonna go move and be with him. So he was off on his own, was you know, used to go for runs. I don't know if it was the altitude that had something to do with it, but just had a sudden heart attack and died. And so that was in April of 1997. And she and I like sit down on a bus after this event where people's uh parents were there and they're you know, everybody's or uh where they're meeting their congresspeople and all that, and it just made two months fresh grief for this 17-year-old girl. And she she sits down next to me and just starts crying. And that was how I first met her. And um, and you know, people people who met Leah sort of after I got to know her, um, in many respects, like she was their introduction to to grief, like people who who also lost parents at a young age or or siblings or grandparents or whatever. She was the one who'd gone through it and was able to kind of coach them and be like, or even my when my sister got a divorce, she might, you know, you know, Leah was was coaching her and saying, like, yeah, you know, these are the things, just take it, take it uh day by day. If that's too much, just take it hour by hour, take it minute by minute. And like, you know, after after Leia died, my sister would then come and give this advice back to me. So it's just coming, it's coming full circle. Um wow. Yeah. So it's all it's all it's all big tangent, just to just to say like how how important it was that like um Leia's Leia's empathy um and her ability to kind of connect with people. I actually I when I was first going through grief and I was like, oh, I feel like this is really giving me a better understanding of people's loss. And I was asking Leia's high school friends, I was like, Did Leia start to get really empathetic after after her dad died? Like, is it was this kind of how she became the person she was? Like, I'm going through this now, and they're like, No, she was always like that. I was like, Oh, okay, never mind. No, you were just a soulless son of a no-people need tragedy to become a good person. She was she just always was like that. She's already good.

Matt: 10:19

Well, what amazing. I never wow, that is really, really something else. That it's like you said, come full circle. Where because she had the empathy, the the mindset, the capacity, all the skills it takes to be able to, you know, whether it was five years or 10 years after her dad died, still be able to draw on that. And whether it's grief through a future of loss and divorce, or grief and actual death of a friend or a family member, that she was able to draw on that and bring it around. And then the fact that she put it out in the universe, and unfortunately, it's coming back to you. But at the same time, what a gift. I mean, it's perverse things. It's you know, it's it's wow. That's I that's it's sad and cool at the same time.

SPEAKER_00: 11:04

Like, yeah, I mean, we can talk about this later, but in in many ways, I feel like the luckiest widower ever, um, because of how much support I have, like for my family and for my friends. And much of that I feel is like the love that Leia put out and the community that we formed around us, and all these people that just want to want to support me, they want to support my kids, they want to kind of show their love for her by expressing it to me. Um, and so it's it's just really nice to be part of that.

Matt: 11:30

Can I ask you, like, because as a guy, just saying help is difficult. Oh god, yeah. Yeah, and then and then and then allowing help is like the next level. How do you not just lose your damn mind? Like, I I'm not good at asking for help, and even like my own mother, who's awesome and she's been widowed for now 30 plus years, will help me all the time, and so will uh very extended family members. My mother-in-law will do things all the time. I've got she's got my daughter has wonderful grandparents, and but like it annoys the shit out of me that I have to have help, and then I get mad at them for doing the thing I asked them to help for. So you just do you just I don't know, like what do you do? Like, because I'm trying to get better at it.

SPEAKER_00: 12:11

It's hard. Yeah. So my wife had a had a really good friend, a friend that she was like friends with her whole life, who like has kids the same age as us, was a was a physician, just like my wife, there were colleagues and all this stuff, and she was there with us in the hospital. My wife died. And so on on the drive home, this friend, Amy, she she like looks at me now. She's like a dog look at me. I'm like, okay, she's like, people want to help you, and you need to let them. She's like, you need to take this very seriously. So, like from ground zero, I had somebody who like, and she she'd gone through lots herself. She had uh her older sister died, died tragically. So that was another way that she and and Leia when she was a teenager. So she and Leia bonded over that. So she like, I mean, like she knew what she was talking about, right? Like, when you're going through this, you need to let people help you. And I was like, okay, I can follow this advice, I can, I can do what I'm told. And I'm my, you know, my brain was fried, right? Um, but but it's been two and a half years since then. So it's it's it is hard. And I don't think it's just like I don't consider myself a very macho guy. I think to the contrary, like I'm I'm trying to get more aware of my own like insecurities and all these things. And one of the things that's always been a struggle for me is like not feeling like I can take care of things on my own. And like I objectively cannot take care of things on my own, or definitely couldn't when my wife first died. Like now it's a little bit better, right? And so it's like I have to make my peace with it. That, like, yes, sometimes I need to rely on other people. And as time has gone by, it's gotten a little easier. You know, I no longer have to rely on my mom or my mother-in-law. I hired a no-pair. Like it, I still have somebody in my house who's helping me with my kids, but it's a little different because I'm paying her, right? Like it's it doesn't feel the same as like, oh, I I'm I'm a you know, man in his 40s who needs his mom here to keep him from having his life fall apart.

Matt: 13:50

Huh. That's exactly how I felt. Um what's interesting is, and I'm sure this is actually gonna probably be repeated, but the fact that it was tragic and instant and just out of the blue, and that you had like a co-captain in grief, if you will, that was so aware enough to look you because I've shared this with other widows and widowers before, which when people all ask, like, well, what do you do? And I go, you take all the help. Because in most cases, it's gone way faster than you think. And that is no reflection of how much people love or support you. Just life hasn't moved going forward again. And so you take it all. Like, if someone wants to bake you 400 lasagnas, take them and freeze them because I'll picking in six months it's not gonna be that way. But like I think I think it's a guy. This is where I can't wait to listen to more widows. Like, I think it's a bit of a guy thing because we do so much in a silo just as our DNA kind of does for us. Like we figure stuff out, we you know, we patch things together, we just kind of hodgepodge thing, we figure stuff out where like I don't think it's uh in our nature all the time to seek out like, well, how do I do this? And and I think in grief it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can mess it up pretty bad if you don't at least reach for some rope or some life preserver or something. And the fact that Amy had the wherewithal to like look like like grab like a small child, you're getting attention, right? Because you are you're 100% right. I can't imagine, like, I'm thinking about like I I mean we knew, right? Like, we did we went through the hospice thing, like we it was it was like watching a slow train wreck, you're like, Well, this is gonna be a disaster. Yours, on the other hand, right? You get a phone call and it is a disaster, and like I feel like we probably were both the same amount of fried, but you got fried a lot faster, right? Yeah, exactly. Right, the the night after we're both if someone were to equal our friedness, it's like equally fried. This this guy got flash fried.

SPEAKER_00: 15:57

The slope is a lot sharper, yeah.

Matt: 15:59

And so I mean, and I think there's probably and the fact that you had the minds, the wherewithal to be like you just said, I don't know what I can do right now, but I definitely can follow directions. I think that's something a lot of guys, if you're catching this in the first I'd say, year to six months, use that mantra. That would probably help, that would have helped me a lot where I should have just gone like, tell me what to do, and I'll do it. Um, because I think the first year there was some stuff I was trying to like figure out on my own. And I think it would have been better to allow people to help me more than I did. That's my memory.

SPEAKER_00: 16:32

Now I'm gonna have to call some people and ask them how you can't rely on your own memory. Yeah, like it was a little foggy. Yeah, what what you're just saying about um, you know, take all the help you can get early on because it's not gonna last forever. That's definitely something I remember reflecting on a lot. And I don't I don't know at the time what was scarier, the idea that I'm gonna have to rely on help forever, or the idea that I'm going to need help and it's not gonna be there, right? Like either way, either I'm gonna be so like either either people are gonna be helping me forever and I'm just gonna be like not an independent adult, and like that's how how much shame I I had in mind for that, or I'm gonna want the help and people are gonna just be going on with their lives because that's what happens.

Matt: 17:11

And it's like, you know, like it won't be available, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

Yeah, yeah, because my my job at the time, my boss was like, you know, you know, the official company policy was like a week of arrayment leave, but he's like, take all the time you need. And I'm like, Well, you can't. I was like, that's actually more worrisome than if you said take three months, because like all the time I need it's gonna be a decade. Like, I I can't imagine ever coming back to work from this. Like at the time, it's like it's impossible. So, like, you have no perspective when you're airway at that stage.

Matt: 17:37

Yeah. I that is wow, what a man, you brought up like two really good things in like well, actually, three if I do that one right, um, in like a matter of minutes. I that one is true too, where it's like, what's what's scarier? The fact that you need the help or the fact that when you're gonna need the help, it won't be there. Either way, I'm freaking terrified. Yeah, yeah, those early days. I think you know what's interesting is now that like I'm thinking I'm four and a half years out. Um, and the only reason I have is because I just haven't clicked over to the five. I'm not counting halves, but it just makes it easier that way. Coming up on five. I look like I'm definitely solidly in the existing phase. Right. So I the the kind of the my the the tagline I've been working for myself is you survive the event where now there's a group of us that are existing after the event. Kids are bathed and fed, and we're functioning, whatever that means. Uh, and some of us are trying to get back to living and maybe even allowing love back into our lives. And and that could be a relationship, or it could just be finding happiness and whatever you want to create in this new whatever the heck normal means. And what I what's interesting is now I'm going like, I wonder now pandemic does a wacky job to us all with the lockdown, but I wonder had I leaned more in or was more mindful, as you sounds like you were early on, and just allowed people to help, whatever that meant, if it would have changed where I am now. Like it's just interesting. Probably not. I mean, it it's like you're kind of like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 19:13

No, I mean, just because like I I feel like I go through that same process of like, what could I have done better? But at some point, you I try to shut off the second guessing and be like, you know what? Like I can't judge, yeah, yeah, I definitely made mistakes in those early days. Um, but I also like can't judge the person I was back then because I was fried.

Matt: 19:30

Yeah, yeah. That's that's a fried is a really good, yeah. I I the thing I've I've said this on the pack podcast before, which is if someone were to tell me that I went to Bali or Bally for uh you know six weeks, uh a year after my somewhere in the first year after my wife died, I'd be like, check Facebook, because I have no idea. I I like literally could not remember where we spent the Christmas. Like, I have to like go look. I'm like, it's such it's your brain just it's a weird deal.

SPEAKER_00: 19:54

Yeah. At the time I didn't, I didn't feel I mean the first few, the first month or two, I definitely felt like. I'm not myself. But after after like three or four months, I was like, I'm starting to feel myself again. But like three months later, looking back, I was like, oh no, oh, I was definitely not myself yet.

Matt: 20:09

Like, I am not I am not a well individual. Why did anyone let me drive? Like, what was happening? I remember one of my first dad meetings at my cancer at the cancer house we were members of that sounds weird, but that helped us. They created a dad group similar to what we have now. And I I was unlike in the one the inaugural kickoff. And I'm there and I'm sitting we're doing around introductions, and they come to me and I was like, Oh, it's been like 60 days. And all the guys turned their heads like, How are you out of the house? And I'm like, What am I? What am I not supposed to? Like, I they're like, Who are you even like? And I was like, I don't know. I just got in my car. Oh, and I remember, guess what? This tells you how bad your brain is. And they actually talk about this. There's a stat about this. I got pulled over on the way to it because the cop I blew through a stop sign. A stop sign that is the there's only two ways to leave my old house, and you have to stop the stop sign. And I went right through it because my brain was someplace else. And he and I told him so. He pulls me over. Sorry, real quick. Pulls me over. Where are you going? And I'm dressed in like sweatpants, a hoodie. I look like hell, right? It's like 60, I'm like 60 days, 90 days out. And the guy's like, Where are you going? Like, I'm going to a grief group for guys who lost their wives to cancer. He's like, Go. It's like, even if you're lying. So if anyone wants out of a ticket, just use that. Like a little solo dad tip for you out there. Just say you're going to therapy about your dead wife, and I think they let you. They may even give you an escort. I don't know. But it probably helps if you look the part. Oh man. I anyway. But yeah, like the fact, but in that moment, I was like, Yeah, I'm fine to drive at night to this grief group. But apparently, I was probably not really your brain's just in a weird yeah. Um, so what was going back to that? Can you recall like what was some of the help that was easy to receive? And maybe what was some of the help that was we'll call in the first six months or whatever you want to put time on your was there anything where you're like, man, this is really uncomfortable for me, but I'm glad I did it.

SPEAKER_00: 22:02

Is there anything um I mean I'd say like speaking broadly, I think that I felt guilty about relying on people, right? Like, so the first five months or so, five or six months, I had either my mom or my mother-in-law staying with us the whole time. And that was, you know, it's a lot of help to like have, but my kids went back to school pretty quickly. I mean, it was it was a pandemic death, right? So like they were still kind of doing a like hybrid homeschool hybrid for a few months after my wife died. Um, but they weren't going back to kind of like regular routine and like I couldn't be present for any of that. So it was great to have that there. I was grateful to like give my kids some sense of normalcy, but I did feel guilty for like how much I was relying on them. And then at night I would just like go for walks and like think and journal and cry and all this stuff. And I was telling myself, like kind of oh, Linda, what you're saying before, like, yes, I'm receiving a lot of help. Yes, I feel a little guilty about that, but I'm but I'm using it. I'm using it to like feel the feelings, read, you know, it's okay, you're not okay, and like educate myself and like go through the stuff that's unavoidable. And I had a grief counselor because you know, my wife was killed in a uh what was eventually ruled a negligent homicide. There was like a crime fund available that paid for grief counseling for me. So I had a grief counselor I was able to talk to. So like, yes, another way I had all these resources available to help me, but I I took advantage of them. And I'm not just like trying to escape from the world to go wallow in it. I'm like, this is important for me to get through so that I can be present for my kids that I can get back to like doing the things that make me feel like an independent, healthy adult. Um still, still not 100% there, but I feel like I'm closer than I would have been had I like tried to force myself to do it all on my own early on. Yeah.

Matt: 23:39

To be honest, people, this is a podcast. So him and I are both in t-shirts. We have no idea if we're wearing pants. So who knows how functional we really are. But I shouldn't say that because eventually this may go out on a YouTube channel. Shameless plug. But by the way, thank you for mentioning that book. And I'm actually uh hoping uh but that Megan and it's okay not to be okay and the refuge in grief stuff is so good, right? So yeah, so good. She gets it. She does, she does a great job of it. So again, another little we've that her book comes up all the time and cannot recommend it enough for folks. Um, I'm glad you know what's interesting. You said the word taking advantage of, right? And like if I play that word in my head, it immediately attaches to guilt. Like I'm taking advantage of the situation, right? And what's weird is like it's it's not, but like in my mind, right? Because I felt the same way. Like when my because my mom was living with us and through and after my wife's cancer, and there came a point when I was like, mom, I need separation of church and state, not because I don't love you, not because I don't need the help, but I need to figure out what I'm what I'm actually doing. Like, because my mom is awesome at like being the laundry fairy, where like the laundry just got done for like six months. I didn't do a load of laundry for I don't know how, and then all of a sudden I'm like, I need to know what I'm capable of. Like, yeah, you've done more than enough. Let's get you your own space, right? And so it's not like she went away, she's got her own place. And but like I anytime like I if I when I was doing when you like you do your walks and stuff, like late at night, you know, she was 13 months, so she'd be out and asleep, and the baby and and whoever, like my mom staying with me. My release was like uh, you know, goofing with a video game or journaling or crying, like God, how many times? How many times do you think in the first six months, like you force yourself to cry by reading a journal? Me, I'm lucky enough to have the video dialogue or whatever, but like or scrolling through pictures, just like trying to get a cry out. That was and it for me, and I don't know if this is a guy thing, but like I really struggled to like cry in the presence of other people. Like it's it just it's not it's it's a it it it should be fine, and it's not like a shame thing. I'm like, I feel like, but if I start to cry, then you're gonna cry, then I'm gonna cry some more. Yeah, it's a social thing, yeah. It's just like, yeah, and um, but like I remember early on for sure having really, really good cathartic cries late at night, probably because I'm also exhausted, but like, but that was the only time I had that was like peaceful and alone. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:04

For me, it's interesting. Like, I feel like there I could mark the passage of time with how easy it was to cry. Like early on, it just happened all the time. Didn't matter who was there, it was just like it's happening, I can't stop it. And then later on, it was like I was gonna, I felt the need to go for a walk. And as soon as I step stepped out of the house and got a little bit of separation, there weren't other people around, then the crying would just happen. And then over time it started to become a little bit harder and harder. And it became a thing where I just would notice my mood was off. I'm like, I'm kind of irritable, I'm feeling a little anxious. Like, what's happening? Now I I it's like it took me a while to realize, like, oh, I need to do something about this to make the crying happen. I'm gonna like put sad music on, I'm gonna like listen to a podcast, read an old letter, whatever it takes, and then it'll just hit me like wave after wave, and then I'll feel better afterwards. It's just a new thing that I have to do now.

Matt: 26:51

That is so I don't know if we've ever actually talked about that on the podcast. We may have there, I don't know if we have. There are times that I a hundred percent agree with what you just said. Absolutely. There are times when I'm like, what in the great googly boogly of the universe is going like, why am I so annoyed? Why am I so and then it it's it's one of two things for me, and I feel and I it took me probably almost three years to figure this out. One needed a good cry, it something needed to just it needed to get out, whether it's you know, the the kids, I I I her mom's missing it all, and I want her to have a mom, and her mom's not here, and I'm sad about that, or something of that nature, or the uh and I needed a good cry, or the other was I'm so and I gotta find the right way to say it. So I'm just gonna say it and probably butcher it, but I'm so angry with my situation. I'm not angry at anything, I'm just angry, and it piles up, right? And so then eventually, and I've you I know I'm gonna say the same example. Sorry, I'm repeating myself. There's a time the sippy cup fell out of the van, and I was like going out to get like her iPad or her bag or whatever. So the kid's fine, everybody, she's in the house, and it falls on the garage floor. And I pick that thing up and I almost threw my shoulder out. I whip this thing so hard against the garage wall because I was mad. And the sippy cup shatters, right? It's a plastic thing, shatters, and I go, I don't think I'm mad at the sippy cup. Like, I think I need to find and for me, it becomes for for me personally, it's it's it's working out, it's some sort of pretty intense like run or something. I don't want to get I don't want to hurt myself or anything, but like it just needs to come out, and sometimes I'll cry after working out. Sometimes it's like, oh, there it is. Like, I just I'm just so frustrated that and you like right like to she's not here to like pick up the milk we need, the things we're talking about. The little text messages like to tell me, do you want spaghetti or macaroni? Well, you go read the kid a story because I just want to take an 11-minute shower instead of a seven-minute shower, all the things, right? Yeah, I'm not mad at any specific, and then the kid doesn't make me mad. I mean, yeah, but like that's not like she's so smart too. And I'm like, Yeah, I know you're right, but I'm the adult kind of anyway. But like, I'm so glad you said that because it's like an itch you can't scratch, and it's interesting you brought up the period of time. Now, we both know time's irrelevant in grief. We're not trying anyone who's listening, we're not saying three, six months, a year, that's irrelevant. But you just notice with the passage of time that how you had to make an effort to and then you realize something's off, and then finish that. How do how do you now that you know that when you go through the pictures, read the the letter, whatever it is, afterwards, how how do you feel?

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

It's like, yeah, it's there's like a lightness to me, you know. I've it's like there is some kind of barrier keeping me from feeling centered and whole and sane. And then once I get all those tears out of my body, then it's like, all right, I can feel more myself again. Why didn't I do this earlier?

Matt: 29:47

Right. What do you describe? I'll describe how I feel when I and I'll I'll think about like crying. So when I when I feel like it when I when I found that it feels it leads to crying, I nothing it's almost like nothing tastes right and nothing is giving me the same amount of joy. The donut isn't as sweet, the steak isn't as delicious, everything's I just nothing's good enough, nothing it's just not right. And then that's how I kind of emotionally feel I love I just ate dinner. Why am I about food? Anyway, like nothing is giving me the same enjoyment, right? Whatever the little things like playing a funny game with the kid or whatever it is, or or for me, I golf in you know, golf, or watching a funny movie, I'm like, it's none of it's right. And then I go, Hold on a second. But I think there's you talk about barrier, there's a barrier that's blocking me to get to the rest of my emotions, and then finding a a a reason to either remember her or cry or get sad about the totality of our life that it is now. Um, how do you feel? Like, what what are some of the words you would use to describe like that lead you to the I'm gonna make myself cry now?

SPEAKER_00: 30:57

So, what's interesting, this isn't really an answer your question, but what I think is interesting, I've reflected on sometimes, is that like I I feel like I have a different vocabulary for the different types of crying I do now, right? Like what we're talking about right now is what I would think of as maintenance crying, like regular most of the year, like something just happens and I'm feeling irritable or fearing, feeling anxious, and then I need to get a good cry out, get some grief waves hitting, and then I feel more myself afterwards, right? But that's different from like around a significant anniversary when I might cry like every day for a week or whatever, because like it's a time of year where I just feel worse than normal. And that kind of cry can leave me feeling emotionally exhausted. Like I might have a few things where I like get together with friends and talk about Leia, or it's her birthday or whatever, and we have a like a Zoom call with friends, whatever, and I like get some good crying out. I'm like, Oh, I'll feel better afterwards. I'm like, nope, I just feel wiped. Like this is the draining kind of crying.

Matt: 31:51

So you have maintenance crying and draining crying.

SPEAKER_00: 31:54

Yeah, and they're both important. Like you can't avoid them, but you just like I don't know, sometimes it's just helpful to like get your expectations in check to be like, all right, I'm not necessarily gonna feel better every time I cry. Sometimes it's just gonna leave me exhausted.

Matt: 32:05

I'm really glad you brought that up. I don't know if I've had a good draining cry in a while. I mean, everybody's journey is their own, right? Maybe that's why I'm so irritable. It could be a lot of things. Um, well, I'm glad you make the distinction though, because and you're right. I'm glad you also brought up the point that not every cry is gonna make you feel better. You may actually quote feel exhausted, which is totally understandable. Wow. I you know, now I'm gonna let's see what let's see where are we at? Well, see, I'm in my I'm on the other side of my what I call my melancholy phase because my melancholy phase, there's earmarks on the calendar, and just for our lives and my wife and I's life journey together and et cetera. There's just a period of year that ends in March that um kind of April-ish or March, April, that kind of ends, and then there's no, I mean, there's always significant days if Facebook would stop reminding you, but anyway, right? Like, there's always something that is significant when you've been with someone, but are important dates, and so I'm like on this, like, it's summertime, I'm all good and happy, and like, yeah, and then the fall will come and be like, oh, but I'm like, wow, I wonder how I'm gonna feel now. I'll have to think about that. Like, if I'll just use um our anniversary coming if our anniversary is coming up, and I'll I'll have to really be mindful. I'm glad you brought that up. I really am. Yeah, that's awesome. Because I I I also do you notice you do you notice you withdraw?

SPEAKER_00: 33:28

I don't feel like I withdraw so much in my grief process. I think that I um it's funny, like as as I've gone through grief, I've kind of reflected on like whether I'm an introvert or an extrovert, because I think relative to Leia, I was more of an introvert. Like she just always loved being around her people and like drew so much energy from being around them. And I like I liked that as well. But like relative to her, I would just sometimes need my space. Um, but having been, you know, spent 20 years of my life, because we got together when I was 20, and then she died when I was 40, um, with somebody who is just so affectionate, so effusive, and like we just clicked and like grew up together. And like having that suddenly yanked out of my life, I just like I just I need people, I crave them. And I think that that actually was the hardest thing for me in terms of like the, I think where the the little bit of of machismo, like having a hard time reaching out to people early on in my grief. I had some friends who were really good at being like, Hey, how are you doing? Do you need a phone call? And I was like, Yes, I do, like all the time. And then as they started getting back on their going on, you know, back to their lives, and I started being, you know, fine most of the time, every once in a while I'd still just get into her like a really lonely, needy state. And I'd be like, Oh god, I really wish somebody would reach out to me right now. I don't want to like ask them and have them be like, Oh, sorry, I'm busy tonight. Like that was really hard.

Matt: 34:50

You're touching, I like I'm sitting here like, I'm uh I'm gonna have some work to do tomorrow. Oh my god. Like, no, I'm serious, man. Like, because that actually hits really hard home right now for me because um, like my wife has this amazing crew of women. I mean, they are amazing, but their lives um used to be centered around Chicago. That's just where they all were. But as life goes, people get married, people have kids, people move out of the city, jobs take away, relationships, whatever. No, no one's being mean, right? But like that crew hasn't and isn't, it's they're not all geographically located in the same place like they used to be. And it would be it would be really good to be able to, like you mentioned, like having a Zoom call and having a good what might wind up leading to some really good crying, which yeah, remembering the person, and that hasn't happened in a while. And and I think it it probably belong yeah it probably belongs to me for not asking for that. I mean it's it's two sided, right? Like oh yeah, I'm not mad. I'm definitely not mad about it, but I'm like, wow, like I did I never until right now, I never would have thought to be like, hey guys, do you want to have a lot of things?

SPEAKER_00: 36:00

And like they they might not know to reach out to you, right? Because like they don't want to intrude on you, like you got your life, and like they haven't been a part of your side of the relationship before. So how do they know?

Matt: 36:08

Yeah, no, yeah, I I like I said I'm not mad at any of them. I never have it. I it's definitely not that. It's more I think it falls more under the I don't want to reach out to be sad, like if you will, like like like I want to have a moment with you guys, right? To to reflect on the last time we talked about her because in my day-to-day life, due to my situation, I've talked about this before. I've relocated and it blew my mind because I just figured this out not that long ago. People I interact with on a daily basis, never met my wife, didn't even know she existed on the planet. Almost 90% of the people I know. My my daughter's pre-K teacher was like, Oh, she looks just like you. And I was like, I can't, I my oldest does 100%. Yeah, like I can't let's I go, I I'm like, I can't let this stand. So I pull out my phone because she's never met her, she's never met her. Yeah, and I showed a picture of her mother. She's like, Whoa, and I'm like, there you go. Um, of course she looks at me a little, but I'm like, because you only have one thing to compare to, I'm like, right, she's 98% her mom. Like, yeah, and they they I wasn't mad, but I was like, I can't let this stand. I don't want her looking like me. I don't want to look like me. Um, but man, I really appreciate what she just pointed out, man. That's really awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 37:13

But what you just said made me think like one of the things that I find really hard is like knowing how to share the news that I'm a widower with somebody, right? Like, I recently started a new job. I was laid off for my own old job in January, I started a new job in March, and like I'm interacting with people who don't know me, don't know my story. And like under what circumstances is it appropriate to me, like, oh yeah, by the way, I'm a widower, my wife died two years ago, you know. Like, I don't want to make people sad and be like, I'm sorry for your loss. I'm like, Oh, yeah, but let's get back to this project thing we're talking about. Like, it's it just feels like you're just dropping a weight in the conversation, and who wants that responsibility?

Matt: 37:44

You either go full shock and awe, you just you just you just like just drop it in there and just blow them up. But here's the other awkward part you're talking about co-workers, right? So I was uh not, I don't think it was in a podcast. I was talking to another widower, and he same thing, like had a job change, and he's like quasi-remote, in and out of office, so like you know, he knows people, but not really, really well. Like, he's I think he's like outside sales guy or something like that. And so he's been there like probably over a year, and like he's talking to an office mate, and they're talking maybe about a Christmas party or something, and they're all just talking, and so they've known each other, he knows the guy's kids, and like maybe maybe not everyone talks about their spouses or whatever, right? Or maybe divorce. And so he just kind of forgets in the moment and he goes, Oh, well, yeah, my wife won't be joining me because you know she died like four years ago, and everybody like around the water cooler was like, Wait, and he was like, Oh shit, you don't all that he totally so there is a there's a window that you have to figure out.

SPEAKER_00: 38:38

You can't just like casually mention it if you haven't ever brought it up before.

Matt: 38:42

Well, but you know what's interesting. So I interviewed my mom, and we went from Southern California after my dad died in Northern California, and so here's this lady with two sons, plopped down in northern California, right? And we grew up there, and life's fine and normal as it can be, or whatever. I interviewed my mom. Someone I grew up with, went to school with, went we went to the same church and stuff growing up, sends me a message after listening to the podcast. She goes, I had no idea that A, that's why you moved to Northern California, and B, that your dad died. And I was like, Wow, wow, yeah, I guess it really wouldn't have ever come up. Like, why would I talk to this girl at church about why we moved? Like, she goes, I don't know, I just assumed divorce or he wasn't around. And I'm like, that wouldn't be the normal thing to assume. So there is a so apparently 30 years is too long to wait to tell her. But it's also like you also kind of when you get past uh well again, I'm picking random. We'll go when you get past about two years. We'll just I'm using that for you. You kind of have to read the room a little and ask yourself, like I found so early on, I told everybody all the time, and I correct everybody. I was like, You have to know her mom's dead, and you have to know I'm widowed because if I'm gonna be sad, you need to be sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Like, just welcome to the shit show. Anyway, but then you get. Then and you're like, catch up, right? Come on, get in the sad boat. And but then you hit a certain point where, like, all of a sudden you got to read the room. And so I remember completely white lying, just lying through my teeth to a guy that was doing repairs in my house. Like he was there to fix something. And I'm never gonna see this guy again, right? And I was like, and my mom was within earshot. And after they left to do the work, she goes, That was fascinating. You just talked like Marcia was at work and that she was gonna come home later. I'm like, Oh, they don't need no, don't feel like having the conversation right now. The guy that's fixing the crank on the window handle that didn't work did not need to know my wife. Like, he doesn't, he looks like a happy guy. He doesn't need that. It's a Wednesday, Mom. This guy doesn't need that on his gadget. So it's an interesting, and and then I felt weird because it feels a little disingenuous, but at the same time, you're like, I don't really need that.

SPEAKER_00: 40:50

Like, is it gonna so it's your it's your story to tell or not tell?

Matt: 40:53

It's your or not tell, right? And um, but I think I think there is a little bit of like read, but it's interesting with your new job. Like, I'll be interested, I'll I'll make a little note and like follow up in like six months with you and be like, So, how many people in your new job know?

SPEAKER_00: 41:04

And you'll be like, two, like yeah, no, it actually came up like organically. I was on a Zoom call with people and were like waiting for some code to test, and somebody else just happened to talk about like somebody who knew who died in a car accident. And I was like, Oh, well, I mean, since you might as well tell you that this is the thing about me. But yeah, I just I like wrestle with it for like you know, half a minute.

Matt: 41:25

It is it is an inter it's an interesting thing, and I think I think what you said is is a perfect way to put it for people if they're trying to pluck a piece of advice out of this rambling conversation right now. Is that what did you say? It's your story to tell or not tell, or not, which is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 41:41

But also, like getting back to Megan Divine, right? Like at the early stages of grief, for me at least, right? Like my grief story needed to be told. And when I crossed that point where I could choose not to tell it, I was like, Oh, this feels good. Like, I don't have to do it, and I can choose not to despair the guy who's like fixing your toilet or whatever. I don't need that to do that to that guy right now. But it it feels good to recognize that like you don't need to, like when you do need to, sure, do it. Like, that's fine. People can handle it.

Matt: 42:06

I that is that is beautiful. That is yeah. I just I'm now I'm thinking about like, I wonder how many people in the first like six months to a year, that just ruined their days, just obliterated.

SPEAKER_00: 42:16

But I don't I've done that too. Like, I I went to there's a there's a place that sells cocktail supplies, and and uh my wife got me a cocktail making class for my birthday one year, and like that started me on my hobby of making cocktails, and I to keep it to this day, and I love it. And I was walking by that store one day and I walked in and I just felt the need to like tell that random guy that story about how my wife got me in classes there and she died. And I was like, and I left the store, and I'm like, I why did I do that? Like, I didn't I didn't I didn't need to make that poor guy, you know, have that moment of sadness, but there but there are other times he's now making himself a cocktail, that's what happened. But I I feel like there are other times like when I am in the middle of it, like when I'm feeling really bad, where I'm just like, Yeah, I I feel bad enough. Other people can handle a little bit of sadness, like that's okay. I don't feel guilty about that.

Matt: 43:01

It's an interesting and like I said, I'm I'm over four years out, coming up on five, and I had the epiphany again. I relocated or whatever. I was like, Oh crap, there's like most of the people I see every day didn't even know my wife walked this planet. Like it's a weird, it's a weird thing to realize. All of a sudden, we're like, Oh, you never knew me as this person's husband, or ever knew it, which is odd. It's just an odd thing to happen because of where I currently reside. It was just weird, but um, that's some really good stuff. I do like all that so far. So when like what so you are now over two years out. Yeah, let's real quick early on what did you find was helpful for and remind me their ages, Eli and um, yeah. Their early on, what was their kind of grief journey and what maybe helped with them? Or can you even recall, or was it yeah?

SPEAKER_00: 43:56

Yeah, I remember a little bit. So um, you know, I remember in vivid detail what it was like when we brought them to the hospital. So like she, you know, she her accent was on the third, she died on the fifth, the fourth was the day when they they told us in the hospital that like early on they had a tiny little bit of hope, but like as time had passed, they're like, no, she's she's not gonna survive this. So we we brought the kids in the hospital, we told them, and there was a lot of crying right in the moment. But within, I don't know, like 20 minutes, they were they were playing with their cousin. We would come into town. My my mother-in-law and sister-in-law had come and my niece. Um, and so I feel like my kids were they were nine and six at the time. And for me at least, that was like the perfect age because they were old enough and independent enough that like I didn't have to be like a full-time parent. Like I could, I could focus on my own grief. Um, but they're still still young enough that they didn't actually grieve like adolescents. Like once your brain kind of crosses that threshold, I think, you know, my understanding of how grief and developmental stages work is that older kids start to grieve more like adults. Like they get it, they get attached to the the world being a certain way. And then the loss of of that of a person, it can be traumatic. And not to say my kids weren't traumatized, but like they were able, they they had that resiliency. Like you're able to kind of get back into school, get back into their day-to-day lives. Like they started doing a climbing after uh school activity that conflicted with the grief group I signed them up for. And I'm like, you know what? Like, Zoom grief group, they were not getting a lot out of it. I was like, what would what would you like to do? And they both are like, we want to go climbing. I'm like, great, do that. Like get some physical activity, do your things, be kids. Like, I'm not seeing signs of suffering at this point. Um, so yeah, I I early on I was very concerned. Like, I need to make I need to get them into grief group, I need to get them into fine therapists, make all the resources available in case they need it. Um, but over time, as I kind of returned to myself and started to trust my ability to like know my kids and and see how they're doing, I was like, all right, I I think they're I think they're fine. Like, and the ways that they're not fine are consistent with the stuff that they're they're going through before their mommy died, right? Like it's not like new trauma appeared. I was like, all right, yeah, my kids still got that same stuff that's going on.

Matt: 45:54

I find it fascinating. So I had I've talked to two family therapists that like different inflection moments with Blair, right? And the first one cried. She cried. That was that she's like, You're doing such a great job. I'm like, okay, you're not that was not helpful. Um, it was helpful, actually, it was reassuring, right? But I was like, okay, and then a few there was another inflection point, and I reached out to a different family therapist, no fault of the first ones, but just reached out to another one. And basically was what she just said. She was like, Everything you're saying is not grief-based, it is yeah, it is a completely normal four and a half year old, and um, you're just gonna have to deal with that. And I was like, Oh, yeah, can it be grief related? Like, you tell me like to fix this because she's a pain in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00: 46:38

I mean, the fact that you have to deal with it on your own, that's grief related, right? Exactly.

Matt: 46:43

I'm like, is there any way we can not have her be a normal phone? Yeah, so um, but yeah, it's and I like how you put it that when you offered it to them, and every and I'll I'd say this much every uh human being in grief is different. Some people need uh a ton of that sounded bad. Some need a lot more um therapy and guidance in their grief. Some people uh need very little and and figure it out on their own and trust their own instincts, or maybe they have some other well to draw on designs like a therapy, you know, a therapist. And kids are the same way, right? Yeah, like I still remember you know, as Blair gets a little older and like like this Mother's Day was interesting. Um she was just off the whole day. And basically what she told me at bedtime was she doesn't like Mother's Day because right, and the first four she was fine with it. And I was like, Oh yeah, that makes sense now because she's a little more articulate and aware of the fact of what it is she's missing, right? Like, like, wait, everyone else gets to go as a fancy lunch with their mom, and I have to sit here with this guy and eat rice krispy treats. And I'm like, Yeah, that's as fancy as we get. You don't know, right? Like, but whatever it is. And so she's able to articulate, and it's not so much quasi, yes, she misses her mom, but it's more about missing the idea of everyone else is having this experience. And I don't like the fact that I'm missing out on it, but I know she's smart enough to know that like I can't like my I can't well, not that she couldn't, but like taking my dad to a Mother's Day brunch isn't gonna help anybody, like it's just gonna talk about making everybody sad. Why are you here, sir? Because my wife died and I want an all-yeah, I am a mommy, damn it. I'm a mom dad, leave me alone. Um but I I I appreciate that like I think that's another really good point to to highlight is that looking at your kids, and hopefully at whatever age they are when our people uh pass away, die, that we know them well enough to look at them and say, like, is this normal like reaction to life, or is it through grief? Are they is it something not normal because of grief? Yeah, like you said, you're like, not that they weren't getting anything out of the the camp or the therapy sessions, they just want their their own opinion was like, I want to go do some normal stuff. And if they're not showing any signs that that's not gonna be healthy for them, it's okay. Yeah, forcing forcing anyone to go to a therapy session, they're not getting anything out of you're just paying a bill.

SPEAKER_00: 49:06

Yeah, and you know, continue to check in with my kids, right? Like so this, this uh the group, the peer groups that we were doing. Like, I kept doing the Zoom peer group because I'm like, I'm getting a lot out of it. And then when they invited us to come in in person, it wasn't until just this past fall. And I was like, Oh, I I'd totally do that in person. They're like, Well, we'd like the in-person thing to be for parents and kids. So can you ask your kids if they'd like to come? And I'm like, Oh, sure, I'll ask them. And my older son said yes. So the two of us go.

SPEAKER_02: 49:30

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 49:31

And he gets a lot out of it. Like just having other kids to talk to who are going through it, who get it, who have the experience of like other people asking insensitive things about their mom missing mom, you know, whatever. Um, and then uh like similar to your experience with Mother's Day. I was like used to thinking my kids don't mind this stuff. And I just happened to ask my older son, I was like, Eli, how do you feel about Mother's Day? He's like, Yes, it's pretty sad. Like, other people get to do the stuff with their mom, and we don't. And we ended up having a really nice, very loving Mother's Day with lots of friends. It involved going to the cemetery, among other things. And I was when I was just like, Man, this sucks. Like, my kids are gonna have to spend Mother's Day at the cemetery of the rest of their lives. Like, this this is kind of lame, but like it was surrounded by by friends in love. So I feel like we did it as best as we could, yeah.

Matt: 50:12

You know, you make it it's interesting. Um, the podcast is part of this, our group is part of this. These connections we have are part of this. I think there's a massive thing. I I lost my dad when I was 11. Um lost. Oh my god, that's stupid. He died when I was misplaced him. My mom didn't misplace him in the living room. Um, he died when I was 11. And I remember shortly after his he died, which is of course it's a core memory. I go back to school and it feels like it was the next day, but I'm sure it was months later. A kid in my same fifth grade class, his dad died as well. Oh my god. And I immediately was like, I'm not alone. Like in him, and I wasn't like we weren't not friends, but we were I think we were actually a different teacher, but we're in the same grade, right? And I immediately remember feeling like not being isolated. And what I've heard when kids there's a really good camp, I'm pretty sure it's called Camp Katumsa, Kecumsa. I'll put the link in the show notes. It's really, it's you all and I pretty sure I should double check before I say, but the whole thing's built on only for kids who've lost their parent. And and the whole thing is like there's kids that have been going to camp for seven years, right? Yeah, and they're like they've kind of turned into mentors a little bit or whatever, but it's like every year they're around a whole everybody at the camp gets it, right? Everybody, and what how because think about I mean, kids yearn to feel the sense of belonging. It's been a while since you and I were kids, but I remember trying to find my group of people, and even in grief, part of the reason the podcast started was because, as you and I were just talking about, right? Before we were there are some wonderful podcasts that guys do, they're just really old and they're not helpful to us. Yeah, yeah. No, and I I'm not gonna say the name of the podcast, but I listened to it and I'm like, this is not helpful for me. Yeah, I appreciate what the guy's doing, but it's not for not for me. It's wonderful if you're like over 60 and don't have kids. So, but it's a sense of belonging too. And how cool that he like did the younger one just say, Yeah, I'm good, I don't want to go hang out.

SPEAKER_00: 52:06

Yeah, he's like, I don't need that, and and like he's still got climate that complex with it, you know? So it's like that's fine.

Matt: 52:12

I'd rather take my life in my own hands and get up that wall.

unknown: 52:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 52:16

Um, yeah. I mean, he's he's he's young enough, and I think just because of who he is, like he doesn't have a lot of organic memories. Every once in a while, I'll have one. But um, but my older son, like, yeah, like he has a better sense of like what things were like beforehand, how they changed, and like that that more tangible feeling of loss. And and from what I've learned, you know, with that this this uh grief group I was in, like they did a whole parenting while grieving class, and we learned about like as kids get older, they will pass through different stages of grief, like even if they weren't that age when the loss happened, like as their brains develop, they start to experience it in different ways.

Matt: 52:48

I had this epiphany talking to our buddy Ben, who's I'll just call him one of the the co the co-founders of this whole thing. And I we I don't even know if we did it on the podcast, but uh him and I were probably just talking as friends. I was like, it hit me. I was like, oh damn, dude, you you gotta you're gonna have to go through it three times every time. Because I'll I ban I'm sorry, but I'll just say his kids are like, you know, uh at the time, uh say I think it was like six, five in 13 months, kind of like mine. And I'm like, every every time that 13 month old gets older and hits like whatever logo, uh a six-year-old and emotionally develop that way, it's gonna be grief into a six-year-old. And then yeah, when the six-year-old turns 12, and even though we've dealt with it, the the used to be 12-year-old who's now 18 or whatever, I'm like, oh man, I only have to do it once with Blair. I'm so sorry. And they're all individuals, right? So you can't do it. And they all handle it totally differently, right? And they're not even, you know, and and one's more obviously, I am sure you don't have to name names, but there's always one kid that's more sensitive than the other, more highly emotionally intelligent from the get-go. And oh yeah, have others that are just very pragmatic, and and so it's it's it, and then that stays with them, and that'll affect how they grieve. Um, so grief groups, a little bit of therapy for them, any books or anything. Like, I mine I did a whole like all those. Um, it's kind of they're in that weird age where you probably I mean, you probably read within to them maybe a little, but I was still doing like nighttime stories, so I had all these like books that just made me ball my eyes. I'm like reading nighttime Ida always. Oh, stupid polo bear that dies. Anyway, you're like reading it, you're just like my little, like, my 18-month-old's like, What? Get back to the ducks, like, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bear dies, but it's all okay.

SPEAKER_00: 54:27

Like, I may have read some stuff like that early on, but like my brain did not retain it. I we I was like cleaning out my closet recently um and found a book about organ donation that we got when my wife donated her kidneys. Um, she was a donor and and the nature for accident was that she could donate. Um, and so I read that to my kids like a couple weeks ago and like got a little weepy over it. But I think you know, for us, I it just happened to work out nicely that like I was the parent who handled the bedtime routine most nights, and I was reading Harry Potter to the kids, and I just like kept on reading that. And some some friends, actually, some of my wife's friends got us, I think it's a land of stories, some book that their kids loved. And I started reading it, and like a few chapters in, it's revealed the main character's mom dies in a car or dad dies in a car accident. And I'm like, Whoa, like a little warning, like, come on, we're fresh here. And my kids like didn't even notice, but for me, I was like, I need I need a minute.

Matt: 55:20

That exact thing happened. Oh, I shouldn't say, I'll say it anyway. My wife's mom suggested a like like a brain candy book because my my wife was a pretty vivacious reader, right? And without thinking, was like, you should read this book. And she gets like two chapters in, and she looks at me, she's like, The mom has cancer, the mom has cancer. And I'm like, maybe, maybe don't do chapter three. I was like, Oh, and because it's early on, it's not really part of the story arc, and so Grammy, you didn't do anything wrong, it's fine. And it was actually there's like one of the first movies we watched after a diagnosis. Like, you can't make this shit up. We watched um The Darkest Hour, right? It's uh the movie about Winston Churchill becoming becoming Morton's Winston Churchill. The guy he took over from back then they called it bowel cancer, left because he had bowel cancer. And my wife and I are like sitting in the movie theater, like, we're just trying to get we're just trying to get away from butt cancer. Like, can we just I'm like, Do you want to stay? She goes, I mean, obviously he dies, and Winston's yeah, you gotta know what's gonna happen. Yeah, I mean, everyone watch movies with your kids, like yeah, you know, every Disney movie is gonna have a day or multiple, like we just talked about the other day, like it was like there's no movies with widowers, and I was like, Well, technically, every single Disney movie is with a widower. Um, so okay, so that's back then. Uh now you kind of touched on that. Um I wanna the one there's one other thing I wanted to to to add. Oh, because it was traumatic and because of how she died, and I'm assuming there was a court case involved. Yeah, how did I kind of walk me through? Was that like did you have to keep revisiting grief? Like, kind of for those that have had to deal with that or that may have to, can you give any sort of and hold on, is it over now? Is is there been a uh verdict and all that? Is it okay?

SPEAKER_00: 57:13

It is it is over, yeah. So that so please there was there was a court case and there was uh settlement. So they're two separate things. And I went through my own journey. Um, you know, my wife was a physician, so like on top of the traumatic emotional loss, there's also like a financial loss, like you lose the income when a when a parent dies, right? Um, and I remember talking to a lawyer friend who early on like got my hopes up by thinking, like, you know, you can get a settlement because the the guy who's driving the truck was an employee of the city. He was a uh building inspector, and like you can you can get a settlement from the city for all the foregone income for you know the until your wife would have retired. And I was like, oh wow, like you know, nothing is gonna take you know, help all the important things, but like, yeah, having some money would definitely make some some of the anxiety go away. And then uh did a little bit more digging and found out that there's like some obscure statute that like very strictly limited the liability for the for the city. So that was the whole journey. That was one piece of it. Um, but then the criminal proceedings, I was informed by the uh county DA that they were going to press charges. And um, this was pretty early on that they told us about it, but it didn't actually get resolved until just this past summer. So it took about two years um for the whole process to work through the court. And when we first heard about it, um, I remember we were with a bunch of family. We got together with my sister, and I think my mother-in-law was there as well. Um, must have been some kind of holiday. And we were talking about it. And I posed a question to my kids and I said, you know, we've talked about it. And like my my mother-in-law and my sister-in-law were all pretty clear. They're like, we don't want this guy to go to jail. Like we understand there, like there wasn't any weren't any substances involved. You know, he wasn't on a cell phone or anything. He just happened to not see her while making a left turn after stopping. Like he he wasn't driving like obviously recklessly, it's just like a freak accident. And we did not want him to go to jail. We were confident that that's not what Leia would have wanted. But I wanted to like give my kids a chance to like let me know what they felt. So I asked them. I was like, you know, I have my own opinions, but I kind of want to hear what you think. And my younger son Kai, who is still six and a half, he's like, I don't want him to go to jail. And I'm like, Oh, why why is that, Kai? And he said, Because I like to do nice things for people, and he didn't mean to kill mommy. And I'm like, Wow, that's like that's Leia's son, right there. Like, that's that's it.

Matt: 59:28

Holy shit. Isn't it amazing how kids sometimes just I mean I don't quote this very often, but right? The quote is from the mouth, what is it from the mouths of babes or something like that? The truth or whatever. It's like, man, say that again. See, what did he say?

SPEAKER_00: 59:42

He said, uh, what he said, I like to do nice things for people, and he didn't mean to kill mommy.

unknown: 59:48

Wow.

Matt: 59:49

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00: 59:50

I was like, Yeah, that's it. Yeah, you don't need to make it complicated. Um, and I also had friends telling me they're like, you know, it's okay if you do want this guy to go to jail, but like from you know, people who who have. More experience with the legal system or friends who are lawyers are like, if you pin your hopes, including one of Leia's really good high school friends, um, she's like, if you pin your hopes on the criminal justice system, you will be disappointed.

Matt: 1:00:10

Like you have no control over that's actually really good advice in general, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:15

Like there, people do things for their own incentives, their own reasons, and like they are not going to do the nice thing for you and your family. So, like, you need to be okay regardless of what happens. And I tried to take that advice to heart. Um, in the end, the driver was put on probation and he lost his driver's license for 15 years, um, which we were disappointed by. Like, he, you know, it's it's it's not a it's not a very strict thing. Like, when we said we didn't want him to go to jail, they said, yeah, we're not even asking for jail time. Um, but for his job, like he needs to drive. So it's a significant hardship for him. And it was our view that he's he had already suffered enough. And um, when it was resolved, which happened uh yeah, like this past fall, right after Thanksgiving, my mother-in-law was in town and we arranged to meet him. So we actually got to meet the driver who hit my wife. Oh my gosh.

Matt: 1:01:02

And um the first time you guys met face to face?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:06

First time we met face to face. We had we had like sent a message because my my mother-in-law, especially, was like the main driving force here. She's like, we were it's really important. We want to send this message that we like bear him no ill will. We don't want him to be punished. And they're like, that's great, we can pass the message along, but like we can't you can't be in communication until this of course meeting is done. Um and so once it was done, we got to meet him. We drove up to where he lives in a nearby town and got to meet him and his wife. And um, it was a really beautiful and helpful experience for me. Like, I didn't, my mother-in-law was was really clear about it. She's like, I really want to tell him this, like, he needs to stop like feeling guilty about it, he needs to be able to like move on with his life. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm on board with that in theory, but I kind of want to see how I feel in the moment. Like, like if I if I get to see him and and he feels remorseful, then yes, 100%. But like, I didn't know. I didn't, it was hard to predict. No, I no, I sure and so yeah, we got I got to see him and it I I did. I felt I felt really bad. It felt good for me to be able to tell him, like, hey, this was I don't view this as a bad thing that you did to us. This is a bad thing that happened to us and to you. Like, that's I've seen people drive more recklessly than him all the time without consequences. I've been the guy driving more recklessly than him without consequences, right? Like, nobody is perfect, and I've just been lucky enough that like my mistakes haven't killed somebody. So it felt good to be able to tell him that and for him to it's it's it seemed to him like he expressed a lot of gratitude to me for for hearing that message. Um, and it felt nice to that like that was part of the healing process for both of us, I think.

Matt: 1:02:38

Well, there's so much, there's there is there's there's so much um love in that and understanding, and you said like gratitude on his part, but also like both of you giving each other permission to accept it as what it was. It wasn't intentional, it was truly an accident, and I love how you put it like it was done, it was done to us, and it happened to us and you, right? Yeah, and and that's just that I mean that's that that's I mean, that take that takes a lot too, man. I mean, I uh were you was there a point when you were like really, really mad?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:23

Was there early on, early on I was, yeah. I Google stalked him a little bit. Um, I wanted to know more about him, and I you know, like if you if you put somebody's name into Google, sometimes you get like weird, uh, those websites are like, this is a different place that this person has lived and stuff. And I was like, oh, one of those addresses is in my neighborhood, and I went on my walks. I would like go by that house, which I think is like a house that they used to live in, like, you know, 20 years ago. Right. Um, and I would just like glare at it. But like my my revenge fantasies, they consisted of like taking pictures of me and Leia and like shoving them under his door, you know, or like like telling him stories about how how wonderful things used to be and making him sad. I'm like, I'm gonna use these sad because I'm sad, you know.

Matt: 1:04:02

You know what though? I uh you get a little bit of the whole thing of a that he he somehow exuded, I'm assuming, so uh a massive amount of probably remorse. Oh yeah, probably a massive amount of sadness in what he had created in your lives and his own life. Yeah, like I I can't I don't even I don't like if if I was the guy in the car, I don't I don't know how I would function, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:30

Like on some level, to be perfectly honest, there have been days where I'm like, I do not want to feel empathy for the guy who killed my wife. Like, I I don't want to do that, but but like when I'm my best self, I'm like, yeah, I can imagine being that, and that would suck. That would be in many ways be worse than what I'm going through because like I don't feel guilt, I don't feel like like I'm a bad person for what happened to me. I get to feel like I'm a good person, like all of these, like I'll I get to soak up all the pity and the the good wishes people send my way, but it's not like I killed somebody and have to make my peace with that, like that would be so hard.

Matt: 1:05:04

What an interesting point that we we have the in in in your instance, I don't want to put me in your group, uh don't do that. Um that in your instance, like there is there is no guilt in your loss. And in the is it is it it probably starts with guilt, right? Where we start with like, you know, people give us the accolades for doing you know, getting through it and going through this, and we're so sorry. I am sure he got some I'm sorry's, but they're coming from a whole different place, right? Yeah, I mean, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:42

And the the the epilogue to the story, right? Is that like I I put some posts on on social media, I put a post on Facebook, and then I also posted on Twitter. Am I am I rational for posting on Twitter? Like I got invited to to talk at a safe streets rally in my town. And so like I got had some relationships with there, some of the people there, and I was like, Oh, wouldn't it be good, like super powerful if the driver and I got to both talk? Because they invited me to talk at one rally, and and I was like, What if we both talk? Like that would be such a powerful message. So I like put this post up and I tagged these other people on it, and then they broadcast it more broadly. Like, even like the mayor of of my town, you know, retweeted, and other people, and like some of the people were saying super nice things, like some people with a big following, like said, like, wow, this guy's way nicer than ever I could have been. And then somebody else was like, Yeah, but like I read about her like in her obituary, and no wonder she married a guy like that. And I'm like, wow, that that feels super nice on a number of levels. And like local local news media, after I got some traction, started reaching out to me. They're like, We'd love to do the story, like that's a really great, feel-good story. And I was like, Oh, yeah, that's great. Like, more people will learn about Leia. Like, I'd I'd love for people to know what a great person she was. And then I like stopped to think about it for a second, and I was like, I've got nothing to lose for this story being out there, but the the driver actually does. Like, you can Google his name and you do not know that he was found, you know, criminally liable for somebody's death. And that's a good thing. Like, he does not need to have that out there. And so I was like, it would it would really be like the most hypocritical thing if I let people tell me what a great person I was for forgiving this guy and then like totally steamrolled him.

Matt: 1:07:12

Destroying, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:13

Yeah. So I I like reached out to him and his wife, and I was like, hey, this is what happened. I'm sorry, like I shouldn't have made this post without checking with you first. Like, I'm I'm happy to take it down, but like I I've got authors to do this story, but I don't want to do it if you don't want me to. And they were super nice about it. Like, they I could tell they were very reluctant to ask me not to. So they're like, we also would love for people to know about Leia, but like it became very clear that they're like, Yeah, this this would be bad for us. And I was like, okay, then I won't do it.

Matt: 1:07:40

Like, yeah, just I mean, what that but what a presence of both mind in in recognizing that, right? Like that that your intentions were pure and good, and also hoping you know, and and hoping he would get some absolute uh absolution out of it, and and like you know, like, hey guys, this is why our streets need to be safer. Like, look at this accident that happened that this poor guy didn't have happen, you know, it could have been him or Bob, it doesn't matter, it's just it happened and it sucks, and our streets need to be better, safer, whatever. And sharing how wonderful he is, and that's all great things, right? But the the unintended consequence is that that now everyone knows who he is, right? Yeah, what a what a presence of mind to go, like maybe maybe I'll pull this back a bit.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:24

Yeah, I mean, I didn't get there right away eventually, but like getting back to the same before. Yeah, yeah, but like you know, the story of our of our loss, right? Like, that is our story to tell, right? But the story of how you know his involvement in it, that's not my story, right? Some of it is like I yes, I'm the one who like suffered the loss, so I can tell some of the story, but like to a point. You're right, to a point you're he's the one who's at risk here.

Matt: 1:08:45

You're well, but and then I listen, you're over two years out. It took you a while to get there, but like I shouldn't say while like it just took you time regardless of it. And but what a cool, what a cool both like gift and and I have the presence of mind to do that. That's that's really it's really something else, man. Um I'm I'm scrolling through, so I might have to play some like Jeopardy music here in a second. Um or do some editing. Let's see. I'm gonna take a minute. All right. So we covered, I will edit this out. We covered the letter. Well, you mentioned well, we didn't cover, but we brought that in. How you guys met, where you guys were at, like how she passed. Let's um you still good? You still good on time? Yeah. All right, okay. So let's let's talk about we talked about like what helped, what didn't talk about like things that have got like you wanted to talk about things that have gotten easier, right? So we'll we'll do that. So um we'll talk about things that got easier, things that are still hard, and then I'll I'm gonna take and I'm gonna pour myself a beverage and then we'll we'll do dating. Does that sound good? Sounds good. Yeah, I so what I'm supposed to do. I was supposed to collapse, I'm gonna find the edit. Uh so tell me about some things where you're at two two years plus out now. Tell me about some of the things that you um kind of find that you've grown through that are kind of I don't want to say easier, but like you've processed them and it's kind of part of your your grief process now. And then some things that even at two years that you're like, why is this still complicated? Why is this still tripping me up?

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:19

Yeah. So I mean, I think I think some of my my own notes here. I mean, we talked about some of these, like leaning in to help, get I got myself an au pair and like just getting all the help that you can, um, and just not feeling guilty about that because like it is what it is. Um, exercise is huge. I know you talked about that in the podcast before. My sister gifted me a Peloton pretty early on, and she's like, you need to exercise. And I was like, I go on walks every day, and she's like, it doesn't count if you're not sweating. And like you mentioned this before, like sometimes you just got to get those endorphins flowing. And like I'm in better shape now than I ever was when I was wearing married to my wife because like I know if I don't exercise, I will feel way worse, and I don't want to feel that way. So I've got like great motivation.

Matt: 1:11:00

Do you also find that like I tell myself when I'm at the gym, I'm like, this may suck, but I I can't die. I can't die now. Like, not now. Like, I gotta be healthy for like 15 more years. Like, I can't have my daughter not have either parent. Like, every now and then I'm like, all right, just get on the treadmill, fat ass.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:17

Like, I didn't think about that before, but now I might.

Matt: 1:11:19

So okay, well, maybe on the Peloton, you might get one of them have the leaderboards are like, look at him go. He's all like, not for the kids, for the kids. Yeah. No, it's just for me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:29

I do it for me so that I don't feel terrible.

Matt: 1:11:30

Yeah, that's all right too. I that's a good motivation, too. You're right, it does feel good. So exercising, taking the help, whatever that is. Um what else? What else can I do?

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:37

I'd say another thing that's like that's gotten easier, but it's still hard, I think, is like learning who I am without her. Like, we had a very close, very intimate relationship that like I feel, and maybe it's just the the kind of person I am, that I thought of myself as a we more than an I in many ways. And when she was gone, that was part of like the vacuum of loneliness that I had to deal with. It's like, I don't not only do I miss her as a person, but like I don't even know who I am. Like, powerful. What kind of person am I? What do I want in life? Like, what kind of things do I like to do? You know, like some of the TV shows we used to watch together, they're like my absolute favorite shows. And I was like, I don't want to watch it without her. Like, that's not the kind of thing I like. You know, it took it took a while to like come to that conclusion that like I liked it because we were doing it together, and now I have to get in touch with like who I am and what I like. So I think I know a lot of progress on that.

Matt: 1:12:30

You know what I realized? I don't have to like Greek salads anymore. That was a big like my wife, my wife loved those things, and I'm like, every time, really, and then I one day I ordered one. I'm like, why am I ordering this? I don't have to like this anymore. We're not sharing this with dinner. I'm like, I'm done with Greek salads, yeah. As an example, I still probably have one every now and then.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:48

But it's so weird because it's like I feel like there are things like that where over time I liked Greek salad because of her, and it's just like I never would have without her, but like I'm a different person now, but like I'm also not the person that I was when she was alive. So, like, who is that guy? So that's the kind of thing that I'm huge, yeah. And like um getting what I say the thing that's improved is I'm getting better at forgiving myself for not being her. Like in many ways, I looked up to her and like so many things that mattered, right? Like social skills and like showing my love to people and working hard, all these things that are in some ways are like significant areas of insecurity for me. Like if I was acting in ways that were like her, I'm like, all right, I'm doing it right. And so in some ways, it's in on one hand, it's like I got to marry my role model. That was great. But on the other hand, like I was constantly looking up to her as for the right way of doing things and not feeling like I knew how to do that myself.

Matt: 1:13:43

So that's the kind of thing that I've had to that's been part of my journey since then, is being like she was a like she was a compass or north star for you to like kind of point to in areas, right? Like aspirationally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:54

Not that she was not that she was doing that to me, but that's kind of like internally how I viewed myself. Like I'm a good person if I'm acting more like her. And now I just kind of have to get myself to be like, you know, I'm a good person, period. Good for you. Yeah. So that's a work in progress. It's still it's still hard sometimes.

Matt: 1:14:11

Um you know what it was for me, and I'm not gonna turn the camera around. My wife, and I never asked her this, and I really regret it, is like she was an organized listdoer person. Oh my gosh, right? And so, like, I'm not so much that way, and and so if she were to see this office off camera right now, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd be alive. I think she I think she would have put a pillow over, like, howdy can you? Um but aspirationally, I was way more because A, I knew she liked it that way, and also she showed me how to. I'm like, oh, that's a label maker. What's this new machine? Nice, nice, right? Like, I'm like, I'm a grown-ass adult. Like, what are the yeah, but like I'm sure she but I never asked her if she liked doing it or if it was a skill set she had acquired, but either way, it was definitely I looked to her and was like, if I could just be like one eighth as organized as she is, my life would be awesome. But it was a hundred percent organized when I was with her because she helped me do it and I wanted to do it for her, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:16

I get that. I'd say that my my journey in that area has been uh kind of in a different direction, right? Because when she was alive, like everybody has a different threshold of like where the clutter or the mess gets so bad that you're like, I gotta do something about it. And when she was alive, yeah, right. Like her threshold was way lower than mine. And so I always just thought, like, oh, I'm just a slob, like I don't care about this stuff. But without her around, the house got messy enough that I was just like, I've got to fucking clean this up. Like, if I don't clean this up, I'm going crazy. And I did it, and I was like, This is so much better. Turns out I do like things to be neat just about as much as she did. Right, yeah.

Matt: 1:15:51

I uh my epiphany one time, so I had always had kind of roommates, right? Or significant others living with me, right? And so first time I ever lived as a bejorning adult on my own was when I moved to Chicago. I came home after, like, I don't know, whatever, couple of weeks. I look around this single man's apartment. I'm like, there's no one else to blame for what's going on here. I always used to think it was like my roommates or whatever. I'm like, I am a disgusting human being. Like, all of this needs to change. This is so bad. Like you're I like how you put the threshold because like I beat myself up for stuff, and I think my therapist keeps trying to remind me, he's like, first off, as you put it so elegantly, you're not you anymore. And oh, by the way, the things you used to do for the person you love are aspirational, wonderful, but they're not there to give you the feedback, like like the reward system. It sounds very what's the Pavlavian, but it's not, it's because it's out of love. Like there are things that yeah, I'll just pick on the Greek salads. Again, Greek salads are fine people, but just anyway, bear with me. But like I like I would do things, but not because, like you said, you made it a point. You want to make sure, like, she wasn't asking me to. I'm like, no, like I did things because it made my the person I love, my wife, the mother of my children, happy. And I know it made her feel better when things were this way or that way, not that she was like, these need to go here and that needs to go that way. And I a hundred percent would assume that if she was able to speak with us today, she'd be like, I did things that I knew that made my happy, yeah. And it wasn't out of like some sort of controlling or like, and I said it's Paul Volivia, like it's a response. Like, I knew that like I remember one time my wife, because she walked to her office in downtown Chicago, and I we're kind of early on it now. We're kind of middle relationship at this point, like we knew which direction we're headed, and we knew things were gonna like wind up being together. And she was like, you know, you don't always have to cook dinner. And I'm like, I work remote, I work from the house, it's totally fine. And I was like, and I know what makes you happy that when you come home, dinner's either started, we have a glass of wine, it's a nice little time. I'm like, I'm not doing it servingly, like I'm doing it too servantly, but not because you're asking or expecting it. Yeah, there's times I'm not gonna, but I'm like, I know what made you happy, so why wouldn't I? Like, it it's no I I I love you, and so therefore I'm gonna do things that I know you love, right? And when they in your instance, you know, and in but my dude, that they're out of our lives, they're gone, they die, and all of a sudden we're we're habitually again. It sounds like you're training a dog, but it's not we do things out of default because we love them, and then over time you start to go, as you said, who am I? Yeah, what is it that and and it's been 20 use for you for me? It was just inside a five. So I there are still changes, but like I I point so I'm stealing this for someone else. We talked about version 2.0, right? The weird part in our instance where we've changed this isn't a weight loss program, this wasn't intentional. We didn't go out and seek to learn a new language, it wasn't a skill set that we acquired through effort and improving ourselves to become a new better person. I'm using air quotes if people can see. And all of a sudden, boom, on insert the day after they die, we're a new person, and your needs, wants, and desires are vastly different than they were when you were 20 when you met her. And oh, by the way, you're now a widower with two kids, so you can't even go back to like what did I want when I was 20? You better not want the same thing when you're 20, by the way. No, I mean, if you do, that's fine, but we need to talk off air. Um, and so, but but right, and you go, but I didn't want this, I didn't even want to acquire it, and now I got to reintroduce myself, and all those things that used to give me a love feedback loop are gone. Yeah, and that took me a bit to figure out too.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:21

I really like you point out that love feedback loop. I hadn't made that connection before, and what I love about it is like once you are aware of that, you're like, you know, it's yeah, you did it because you wanted to, but you also got that reinforcement. You're not getting that before, but you can actually give that to yourself. Like you can focus on like, oh hey, I I cleaned up the house. You can give yourself a little metaphorical pat on the back. Like, good for good for me. I did the thing. I Swiffered, I love myself. Yeah, exactly. I love myself anyway, but like I love myself even more.

Matt: 1:19:52

This is yeah, I'm glad you picked up because I it I think that falls into the, and I know I'm kind of we're interrupting a bit, but. That falls into like allowing love back into your life. And I don't want to be ultra cheesy of like self-love, but like there, you know, the attaboys and the the feet because we're not getting it from that one person that we desire it so much. And some of our habits that we did because we love them, right? That there are things I also realized there was things that I just had a flat outsource. I was like, listen, I did this for my wife because I loved my wife. I don't have the time anymore. I I gotta pay someone else to I just I I I because I'm not getting the feedback loop, even if it's just a simple thank you from the person you love. Like, I'm not getting it. So you know what I'm not doing? I'm not cooking salmon every single Friday night for me because I'm eating it. Like, I'll do it when you're older, but we're not doing this anymore. But the the weird part is I think early on it was it was a bit of a habit. And I was like, that was actually oh wow. I just had a massive like, holy crap! My therapist pointed out because my wife and I were, as you might be able to guess, I'm slightly extroverted, and so and so um my wife was as well, but I'm like, I'm like a lab on crack. I'm ultra like hi, be my friend. Um, we would always be very social, and we had always like gatherings, and people would come over, and there was always way too much alcohol and way too much food. She passes away. Take the help, get the get the meals, get the whatever, things kind of swing back to normal. I I want people to listen to this very carefully. I was a single male with a I'll just give myself five months, an 18-month-old at home, and then part-time father to a teenage daughter. That's and a 70-year-old mother that had gastric bypass, so she eats like a bird, right? I still had a membership and used it at Costco for a year and a half. What the was I planning?

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:46

How how hard was it when you got rid of it? Like, was that painful?

Matt: 1:21:49

I gotta be honest, I heard a lot, but like like the therapist point is like you're you're acting like you're still in the relationship, like you're gonna have a gathering, you're gonna have a party that your your wife's gonna bring over co-workers or her friends and all their significant others. And I was like, Holy crap, because it felt so good to do it, because that was part of our and I like right now in this moment. I'm having this like, holy gee. And so now I'm like, now it's my shopping is very sad. Now it's like I'd like two chicken breasts and one strip of broccoli for how long? That's gonna last a week. That's it, me and the kid.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:23

But you're and you're you're taking me back too, because I feel like in those early days, like the loss of the person is bad enough that like you're also being asked to to get to give up on all of the things that went along with that life, right? Like the hope that you're gonna have those gatherings and all those things are just like, yes, all of that's gone. Like, that's too much to face at once.

Matt: 1:22:43

It's you know that you're right. You're absolutely now. I'm gonna have to like go back and think about what other things that's a really good point. That when they're gone, immediately, no individual person, but the universe is saying, and oh, by the way, you have to give up all the things that were with them. Like I've told the story before. There was a guy in the same grief group that I got pulled over the first time. We we've been meeting a while, and this was pre-COVID. Um, and he was, I'm just gonna go, he was like 12 years out, and we're kind of going around sharing something, and I envision him having a master bedroom with like two closets, like his, hers on like either side of the room, if you will, right? Like not a walk-in, but like a kind of old school, like two closets, his hers. We're going around the room, and he goes, Oh, I haven't cleaned out our closet. And he has two sons, so there's no like seminal reason to keep the dresses. And the and the the therapist leading the session goes, like, you mean you haven't like you know completely cleaned it out? He goes, No, I haven't touched it in 12 years. 12 years, wow right, and the therapist is like, We need to talk. And like every guy in the room was like, I don't know how too long is, but that's too long. But in the sense of like, how like it would be I think it would be shocking if the day after the funeral you cleaned out all their clothes, because like you just said, you're being asked to give them up because you're not here, you don't you know logically they're never gonna put the pants on again, but you're like, I'm not gonna empty it out the day after the maybe people do, but it would be a shock to the system, I think. Right. If I I'm thinking right now, could you imagine the next morning? So you come home from the hospital. Uh we were on hospice, but I can just imagine the next morning waking up, right? Now you're gonna have to go to the funeral home, you have to do all that things. Let's say you go to the funeral, let's say you go to the funeral thing, you the paperwork's all fog, people helping you, you come home, and there is nothing of your person in the house. That's basically that's what that's what the universe is basically implying, right? That you have to give it all up, all of it, they're just gone. But you have all the memory, and you built a life around them, the feedback loop and the love, and all and so I think this is where the grief journey this is fascinating me right now in the moment. That that's one of the things that is the struggle because like I have and I've I've admitted this before and I've gotten a little better at it. I'm working on it, everybody, everything's fine. I literally, when I moved to my new house, I put my wife in a basement behind the closed door. That's not a figure of a speech. I took everything that was memorialized in boxes and said, not today. And I hated it. And Ben actually pointed out, he goes, That's both figurative and literal. I'm like, I probably should work on that. And so now I'll go down there and I'll pull a box out, and I'm like, okay, why why am I keeping all these receipts? Like, I don't like why I don't know. She went to the grocery store. I don't, so it's not quite that bad, but like it's interesting because I think, as you mentioned, I wasn't in a spot where I'm like, listen, I can't give it all up. I just it's too much too soon for me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:44

And the the Costco membership, right? Like, you don't you don't need to go to Costco now because you have a life that involves not going to Costco. But at the moment, you didn't have that life yet, right? It's that it's that that ball in the box metaphor where like the box grows bigger. Yeah, because you you live life, like you're still alive, you got your daughter, your other daughter too, but you're like you're still moving forward in life doing things. But when that loss is fresh, it's impossible to imagine what that life is gonna look like. All you're aware of is like what you're losing.

Matt: 1:26:15

I'm just thinking about the beef jerky that I wouldn't have bought had I not this Hawaiian beef jerky, it is oh so good, it's so not good for you either. But anyway, um, sorry, we won it off the but this is really, really good. Like, really good, man. Like, I like that's I never really thought about it that way. And the Costco membership literally, I couldn't, I don't, and I had all the random justifications for it. And I literally was I was like, why am I buying 24 pounds of meat? Like, this is insane, yeah. And then I'd freeze it, and I mean it takes me like six months to eat.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:52

I mean, it's not that different from like it took me a year before I got rid of my wife's cell phone, you know, like all that one's, yeah.

Matt: 1:26:58

I get well, but no, you're right. And I think you know what's interesting. I think we people could all go through, we'll go, we'll say two years, we'll say a two-year journey and pick out things that were like I I held on to it just a bit too long. A Costco membership, a cell phone, whatever. It's not, it's not, it's not that too, too long, just a moment too long, where you're like, but when you look back, if you put yourself in it, had someone taken away from you a day before, you'd be like, give that back, right? Like, so when you did it, was that time to do it? But right, and so I think this is one of the parts that makes a journey in grief complex and very individual, which is referencing the guy from 12 years, that's too long, but also the day after would be too soon. I don't know what the right answer is because everyone's like you might be super attached to the clothes and could care less about the cell phone, right? I actually think I I actually well, mine was probably about a year or so, but I remember giving it to a family member because their phone died. I'm like, well, here just switch the plan. I don't, it's just sitting on the thing. Um, and so and so it's interesting. Clothes is another one. Like, I remember kind of going through a process of having people go through it and getting what they wanted out of it because my wife was a your wife was a professional and had a mast of fairly my clothes were in the hall closet, let's just be honest. So I had a master pretty good wardrobe, and uh, and so and then eventually knowing where she wanted them to go to like help, she had mentioned in passing, like, just don't donate my stuff to all of it to goodwill, nothing wrong with goodwill, but like find the right avenue. And I did, it took some time, but I remember I distinctly remember the first couple of days because we had a walk-in closet early in our relationship in the condo, my stuff was in the hall closet. The house I worked myself into the walk-in anyway. I remember opening the door, uh Nadav, and I go, I put my hand in, and I'm like, t-shirt, shorts, and just pull I couldn't walk in because it was her stuff. Like, I literally just shot up, was like I can't go in there. Um, so yeah, that's an interesting, that's a really, really solid point, too. And I like how you brought up the you know, that who you are now needs totally different things, and you have to get to know that person because it no one there's as we know. Two, I actually said this the other day two of the most complicated things in our lives don't come with a manual. Kids, grief, like and yeah, the two things we do as humans forever. We've had kids, no manual, and we've died forever, no manual with grief. Like, can we just the rest of the life? There's books for all of it. Like, how to lose weight, how to put on weight, how to build a house. Anything else? Nothing. We got nothing for the two big there's no manual to raise a kid. Um, so I really like I that's a really, really good point. So those are the things that you find that are getting easier. Sorry, we went way down, but I really think it's good stuff. What are you mentioned? There's some things that you're finding, or is there anything else? Is there anything else that is?

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:36

I think those are big. Oh, I think like having adventures with my kids, I think. And that's part of the process of getting to know who I am, but it's also like getting to know what our family is like, right? Like it's still my family, it's just missing a person. And now it's like, well, I'm the adult. I can kind of like have more control over what we do. Um, and we took a trip with my in-laws that had a second part that was supposed to be with them as well. And their flight is like first part was Kenya, second part was Scotland. It was a pretty crazy summer trip. And the flight from Kenya to Scotland, my in-laws' flight got canceled. So just me and my two boys, the trip to my in-laws had planned. I was just like, Yeah, sure, I'll tag along. And then all of a sudden I'm like, all right, it's just me now. Like, let's figure this out.

Matt: 1:30:16

And it was solo, solo dad. Solo dad international.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:19

Yeah, driving, driving on the left-hand side of the street. Like it was it was a little freaky. Um, but it was delightful. Like, I mean, my kids, they're just great to travel with. Like, I think I got lucky, but like having having that chance to just do that stuff on our own, and we gotta have planning another trip for the summer for the three of us to go to Italy. Like, the first one was accidental, but like once I got a taste of it, I was like, all right, this is this is actually great. Like, I'm looking forward to the next time we can do that.

Matt: 1:30:43

I love stay, I love stamps on passports. Um, I think it's awesome. So uh the adventures with the kiddos. And I you know what's interesting, and you and I know we're joke, like, I'm the adult, but it is. It's like every now and then I'll reference, like, kind of like, what would my wife want? Right? I'll just in my head, I'll be like, what would she want for Blair? And then every now and then I I don't because I'm like, well, it's it's not irrelevant. What's the right word? It I have to make the decision. Like, there's no there's no calling the wife and going, like, you know, what do you think about her taking swim over ballet? It's like to look at the kid, look at her schedule and be like, listen, uh, you you got to do swim because we can't get you in the ballet class, or whatever the example is. And I think that's another thing of us getting to know ourselves as the solo parent. And I can I can only speak for my journey because it was shorter and more compact with my wife. I believe I have it easier because that wasn't as long as relying on her as a co-parent. Where I think people like you and Ben, who had these long, amazing relationships with their spouse, there was a lot more intertwined and and uh um support in the the parenting journey. And I can't like I'm thinking to myself, like, oh my gosh, had I been parenting with my wife 10 years, I'd be like, I don't know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:55

Like, I don't yes and no, because I feel like those times when I've when I've wrestled with the decision about my kids, and I'm like, what would what would Leia say? Like, it's not hard for me, you know, my my older son moved from one school to another, and I was like having to weigh different options. And I was like, it was pretty easy for me to figure out what Leah would want. I'm like, oh, this one has a pretty strong social justice focus. Like, Leia would love that. Like, and I happen to agree with it myself. It's not just like her telling me from beyond you know this.

Matt: 1:32:21

Calling a medium. Uh, can you call Leia and tell her ask her what school my son should go to?

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:26

Right. But at the same time, like, especially in your case and also in mine, like our kids are turning into people that our wives never get to know. Like, they're they're becoming like a whole new person, and you can't rely on on the judgment of somebody who never got to meet that person.

Matt: 1:32:44

So my wife in her cancer journey had the wherewithal. This this broke my heart. So in our cancer group, someone had mentioned, like, oh, they gave a bunch of birthday cards to their husband to fill out to their children so they could give them to me. Oh man, that's beautiful, right? Yeah, and for some people it works. So my wife gets a stack of cards. Now keep in mind, our we knew at this point it wasn't gonna be we weren't getting years. We knew that. And so, like, someone gave her like from two on, right? Or something like that. And there's a stack, and she also like, I had no idea how many people were sending her cards until like I went anyway. There's a stack, she wasn't hiding them in a nefarious weird way. I went was going through stuff, and I'm like, Oh, I had no idea she was getting all these cards. Like people were sending her cards, like you know, wishing you well and notes and all this amazing stuff. So um in that area where she'd kept those was these cards. And and I I I asked her, I was like, Well, what do you want to do with these birthday cards? And she was she the person who the people that had made the effort to give them, she goes, I do you no too late now. Here we go. Um she said, I I can't fill them out. Well, why not? She goes, I have no idea who she's gonna be when she's five and ten and fifteen and twelve. And she goes, she goes, What if I write like you know, when she had her mean girl events when she when Marcy was like, you know, 10, 11, 12, like the difficult time for girls when things can happen. Anyway, and she goes, What if what if she's one of the mean girls? What if I tell her about like her first high school crush and she winds up liking girls? What if and she goes, What if I'm giving her this advice that is not per not not at all germane to who she is? And I was like, We're just gonna go ahead and put those over here and I'll get rid of all the monies and all. Like I it broke my heart, and even right now I'm like, Oh, can you like oh, but but to your point, we are now the sole record keeper of who these little humans are becoming, right? Yeah, and so when we go into our decision-making process, yes, we can rely on knowing the person we love best on the planet that anyone can know each other, and knowing that they're in us a little, right? They're a part of us forever for sure. That we can rely a little bit on that. But at the end of the day, like, like you said, like what I'm I'll make it up for my daughter. What if, like, what if she was like, you know, and when you're three, you're gonna take ballet and you're gonna love it like I did, and blah, blah, blah. And my daughter's like, Dad, I'm a hip-hop artist, like, I don't do ballet, and I'm like, we're just gonna cross out ballet. So, right, like they didn't do it in a bad thing, but they they don't they don't know what our little people have become. And that's a that's a really and it's difficult, but I think that if we like you said, it's not hard to call up our person in our mind and go, what would they want? And I I do like doing that from time to time, but there are times when I'm all like, I just you just gotta you gotta trust your gut too. But I think that that's super important. Um, what would you say? That was the third one. Adventures with the kids, getting to know yourself, good stuff in there. So, what about anything a little more or that's still tripping you up or still challenging, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:57

Stuff like stuff that's still hard. I mean, we already talk about like getting to know who I am without her, and I feel like managing myself without having a partner there, right? Like, I think in some ways, some of my personal growth I didn't have to do because I had her in my life, right? I have insecurities where I sometimes struggle with feeling lovable. And when I was with a very affectionate, abusive, loving person for 20 years, I didn't need to work on that because every second I saw her, I was like, It was covered. Yeah, totally covered. Of course I'm lovable. She makes me feel lovable all the time. So now that I'm like without her in my life, I'm like, oh, all right, yeah, there's some unfinished business here. Like, I gotta work on that. And like, even just more mundane things. Like somebody, no, not to get into the dating conversation yet, but somebody I connected with early on in dating. I was talking about how, like, yeah, I'm having a really hard time getting to bed on time. That's something my wife used to go to bed earlier than me, and she'd say, like, hey, come to bed, you know, stop playing on your phone. And this, the, the person that I was that I was uh interacting with, she's like, you know, I'm also a night owl, but sometimes it's just nice to have somebody to say, we should both go to bed. Like, not just you should go to bed because I'm going to bed, but like, we are both struggling with this, but let's work on it together. Like just having a companion to help you work on your shit, like having to work on it on my own now is hard.

Matt: 1:37:14

There's a there's a vast difference between accountability and a loving accountability, right? Like, I feel I I tell this to many people. Like, I, even though it was short, I had a taste and a view of who I had the potential to be when I was with my wife. And then you it goes away and you go, like, I want to be that person again, but the person that made that possible is not here. Yeah, and there's no way I can do it on my own, like because I couldn't do it for the first 38 years old. And so now I'm sitting here, like, you know, again, shame eating my ice cream with a Greek salad still, like, well, she would make me eat a Greek salad. I'm getting just picking up salad. But like, but that's a really good point that that you know the areas and it's the areas that they complemented, right, are shortfallings, and vice versa, yeah, that we did for them. Well, why would you work on it? Because, like you said, of course you felt lovable and cared for, and you know, all those things because your wife made you feel that way, and that's great. Like, why why would you could you imagine? Like, if you're if Leo was well, you go into the go into the dining room table one day and be like, Hey, sweet, I think I need to see a therapist about how I'm feeling unlovable. She'd be like, What in the hell? Like, it'd be a weird like I really think I need some work on this. She's like, uh, you're totally lovable, dude. Like, what's your problem? He'd be like, I don't know, this just isn't working for me. I don't feel like she'd be like, right? So I think it because it's covered and that's okay. But it it is an honest reflection to sit and be honest with your ourselves and say, you know, is this something I need to work on? Is it like a shortcoming, or was it just covered because my person was so powerful at it and I'm okay with it, but it doesn't necessarily need work, right? Like my organizational skills. Um just just hypothetically saying, uh, right, but it is you have to sit down and the interesting and and tell and answer this. That's something that you can't do. Well, I don't think most of us could in the first three to six months. Like because we're just so our brains are so scrambled. Yeah, you've got to get to a point where you can be honest with yourself and really take that uh stock in that evaluation, right? Like like you're saying, like, yeah, like going to bed on time. You're like, well, I'm staying up late because I don't want to, I or if I go to sleep, I'm gonna sleep forever, or whatever it is. Like, that's not uh that's too early for you to go, like, oh, my wife was really good at make sure I went to bed on time. You're like, I'm grieving, like I sleep when I sleep.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:46

Like, yeah, but we know, but at the same time, it was also like getting more sleep will help me feel less terrible tomorrow, right? So, like early on, I actually had was better at managing my sleep, not not very early on, but like with the within month like three to twelve or so. I was Like, all right, I'm gonna exercise more, I'm gonna get to bed. Like, because if I don't, I'll feel terrible. And now that like my life has gotten more normal, I'm like, oh yeah, I kind of feel like playing a game now rather than going to bed. And if I don't, if I stay up too late, I'll be okay tomorrow. Like, that's I'm that's I mean, that's stage now.

Matt: 1:40:15

Yeah, well, right. I can stay on a podcast talking to some random dude I've never met face to face. No, um, okay, so so that side, any anything else is kind of uh tripping you up or that you're finding I think I think those are the main notes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:40:29

I think the the real catch 22 with managing myself is how it interacts with dating. And this is the thing that I'm like still trying to figure out, which is that like given that dynamic that I was just talking about before, that like some of the stuff is easier to manage with a partner, but I feel like I kind of need to do more work on some of the stuff before I'm ready to deal with like all the craziness and stress that comes with trying to find a partner, right? Like, what do you do first? Which comes first?

Matt: 1:40:54

I think I think it's a great spot. Um, I'm just gonna I want to go get a beverage to be honest with you. So um, I'm let's uh I think I'll pause well, I'm not gonna pause the recording, but I'm gonna go get a beverage. If you need to grab something, grab something. And then um I wanted to ask, oh, there was um, do you feel I saw on here I'd asked about like keeping mom's memory alive, and I was trying to figure a way before we if we went to dating, is there a way to circle back with it? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41:25

Um I don't think I have a lot to say on that topic either.

Matt: 1:41:28

No, yeah, yeah, I we have pictures around and stuff. I think it's because when I think about like my kid, like I have a lot of blank walls and I feel real guilty. So I ask people like, what should I be doing? I moved into a new house, and so like that's my this is this is my only thing that's like hanging on any wall in the house, and I'm like, just put holes in the walls, you dumbass. It's your house. Yeah, no, I'm I'm terrible at that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41:48

It takes it takes me forever to put stuff on the walls. I'm the worst.

Matt: 1:41:51

Uh oh, actually. Let's let actually I want to record this question real quick, and then we'll go to dating. So give me a second. And then um okay, so that's what you were struggling with. That's what's still tripping you up. And then real quick, what has grief and loss taught you either about yourself or other people?

SPEAKER_00: 1:42:15

Oh, yeah. Um, I'd say I've been hitting on similar things to what I was talking about before. I think what grief taught me about myself is that I'm stronger than I gave myself credit for, you know, some of that is like physically stronger, right? Like I'm getting on the Peloton to help my mood, but like I'm able to, when I set a new record, um, or is that a new personal best, I'm like, oh, this feels really good. Like I didn't think of myself as the kind of person who could do that, who could like work out every day. Um, I don't know, maybe every other day. But uh that that kind of thing, like that kind of proving to myself that I can do hard things, that that's a great feeling. And that's not something that was part of my pre-grief experience. So that's been nice.

Matt: 1:42:54

That is good. That is good. I think also uh how do you feel about your parenting?

SPEAKER_00: 1:43:02

So, yeah, I mean, one thing and this might be like a unique dynamic to like two parent or two kid families that like I felt like we had this kind of these little niches where like one of us would traditionally lose our shit with one of our kids more often than the other one. So, like Leo would more often have a hard time with Eli, and I would more often have a hard time with Kai. And early on when she died, I'm like, oh man, poor Kai. Like, he lost the one parent that like never lost it with him. Like, it's gonna be rough.

Matt: 1:43:31

He's just he's just getting bad cop all the time. No bad cop, all bad cop, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:43:35

Yeah, and I think you know, I like I do the thing where I like see a younger version of myself in him, and I'm like, oh no, don't do that thing. Like it I didn't like that when I did that, you know, as a kid. Um, and so I had a lot of worries early on. And I think um since then, over the past like year especially, I've been able to like reflect that like I can grow past that. Like I can, not all the time. Like I had an off night last week that was not great, but most of the time I do feel like I can be the parent that both of my kids need most of the time, and I can like pay attention to how they're doing, pay attention to their needs, and um be mommy and daddy for them.

Matt: 1:44:11

That middle part right there, that you now feel that you can be the parent that your kids need, and because they have probably, I'm assuming, different personalities for both of them is super powerful. And I think it sucks that we have to learn through grief because how else would we know that we are capable of that, right? I think that's a because I I think we're always gonna have a little bit of a twinge of doubt, right? Of are we doing enough for our kids? Are we are we both are we filling the void? Are we you know compensating? Are we doing all the things? But when you look at the results and you're like, wow, they're fed, they're dressed, they're they're moderately functioning small humans in the planet, maybe we're doing pretty good. And I don't know about you. If anyone, how do you feel about when people compliment you on dading, like being a parent a dad?

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:08

I yeah, I mean, I I try to do I try look at it two ways. I try to be good at like just accepting the compliment and being like yes, like and not just like immediately deflect it. But I I do think you were mentioning like difference between widows and widowers. I I do try to be mindful of like the double standard that it's just like doing the bare minimum as any kind of dad, even especially as a solo dad, people like, oh wow, it's amazing, dad of the year. Um, and I gotta tell a quick, quick lay anecdote where I was I was it was when shortly after Kai was was born, and like she did three months of maternity leave for each of our kids, and I did one month of paternity leave afterwards. And so as I was doing my one month with Kai, and I had both kids going grocery shopping, and I was at Trader Joe's, and people are always like super friendly, and they saw me with my kids and like not doing a great job holding it all together. They're like, Wow, here you go, super dad, and just give me some free flowers. And I came home and I was like super excited. I was like, look at this nice thing they did for me. And Leo is just like like smoke rising from her ears. She's like, Not once in the last three months did anybody give me any flowers, and I was like, Oh, oh yeah, yeah, good point.

Matt: 1:46:13

Uh uh Trader Joe's, maybe maybe give those moms flowers every now and then. I well, I like I'm serious, like I it's this really weird thing, right? Because people will tell me, and I I try not to just dismiss it because they are being genuine, and I understand that yes, we uh solo dads are all the ones I can think of out of pause for a minute, are doing a pretty damn good job, you know, giving our total situation. But I do feel at times that the bar I feel the bar in general is a bit low, yeah for dads in general, for dads in general, and then you throw grief on top of it and the bar doesn't necessarily move anywhere. And so then if you're at all cognitive of your parenting, you go like well, I appreciate it. But like like I like I I want to be I wanna be above it, and and yeah, it's a I I find I find that I I feel like I'm always failing upwards, if right? Yeah, I feel like, yeah, I'm doing well, but it's like I still feel like I look at my daughter and like she's gonna listen to this in like 18 years and hate me. But like she's been basically raised by a single dude, right? She was 13 months when her mom passed away. Cutting the cheese, breaking wind, and farting is free range in this house. She's a young lady and she's like about ready to go to public school in the mic. You can't just rip them when you walk through a room, like oh failing upwards. Like, I'm super proud of her, and it's awesome, but at the same time, I'm like, uh, we need to teach you like a hallway or a restaurant. Oh man, you're gonna have no friends if I allow you to go to public school.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:07

My my version of that, like you know, when my so bad af my kids always had terrible table manners, right? Like, you know, not at not thank please or thank you, or kneeting with their hands, all this stuff. And I was just like, whatever, their kids, it'll it'll pass at some point if we decide to like make a big deal of it. And after my wife died, I was like, Oh, wait, it's all on me. Like, if I don't fix this, they will just be this way forever.

Matt: 1:48:30

They're gonna be savages. We know actually, you know, it's nice when you can tell, like, I'm I have a 19-year-old, and so you know how you can tell that they like somebody, they'll start to do something that they've never done before because they want to impress the kid they like. So, like, your kids would have eaten with their hands right up until they thought a girl was cute, and you're like, Are you hungry? It's like, yeah, there's this cute girl at school.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:50

Like, yeah, so they it's that knowledge is there, they're just doing that.

Matt: 1:48:54

You just have to find the right motivation. Um, all right, and this is great, man. So um, we're gonna pause. I think that's a perfect segue. So we're just talking about the kids, and then we'll we'll roll into let's talk about dating. Cool.

SPEAKER_02: 1:49:06

Okay, that's good.