SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Every family is different. And I think it's important to show ourselves love and grace that the way one family does it isn't the way that another family is going to do it. And a million people are going to tell you what to do and tell you if you're right or wrong. Fuck all of them.

Matt: 0:27

Welcome to the Solo Dad Podcast, where we hold space and gather for widowers to share heartfelt, honest, and open stories of grief, their insights on navigating the journey after the death of their partner or spouse, loss, healing, and finding their way back to living again. I'm Matt Bradley, your host, and I am honored to join you as we explore the complexities of grief, the challenges of solo parenting, and the struggles of getting back to living, and maybe even some adventures of finding love again. Each episode we'll sit down with courageous dads who are bravely sharing their experiences, insights, and lessons learned along the way on this journey. Sharing how grief has impacted them, their children, and their lives. We might have a crosstalk conversation with widows and widowers sharing their experiences, the similarities, and the differences in grief and being a solo parent. Occasionally we'll have grief experts on to dive deeper into the understanding of grief and healing. So whether you're a solo dad or solo mom or a friend of a solo parent, or you're wanting to just understand more about this journey, you're in the right place. Don't forget to visit our website, solo dad.life, for more resources, episode updates, and to connect with our growing community. You can follow us on all the social media platforms, find our group on Facebook, look for us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and on the YouTube page. On YouTube, you can find more content and some behind the scenes moments. Just search the Solo Dad Podcast. And remember, don't forget to subscribe. Lastly, if you've enjoyed what you've heard or found it helpful or insightful, we would appreciate your support. Head on over to buymeacoffee.com slash the Solo Dad Podcast to help keep the show running and fuel our mission of supporting solo dads everywhere and giving them a space to have open and honest conversations. Thank you so much for being here, and let's dive into today's conversation. Welcome to another episode of the Solo Dad Podcast. I am your host, Matt Bradley, and as always, I am honored and humbled when another solo dad or someone deep in grief takes time out of their day to share their story, their journey with us. And that's this is no exception. Um I I'm just gonna call you my friend for now, CJ. It just makes it nice. We've had one chat, but we've kind of been following each other for a minute. I have CJ on. CJ, welcome and how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00: 3:11

Yeah, thank you. Um, today is um stressful, yeah. Which, you know, maybe it's pretty common for us, but uh yeah, today's pretty stressful. So it'd be nice to get a break from that all and just kind of have a chat with you. I really enjoyed our last chat. So yeah.

Matt: 3:24

I and CJ, you have um kicked off. Well, why don't we start where you are today in the Greek journey and what you have recently kind of launched? Um, because we're kind of walking this parallel path, and I I really I really respect and admire what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 3:39

Yeah, I appreciate that. So um where I'm at today is a pretty loaded question. Uh, so I will try to be brief and then we can dig in if you want. So sure. It's been about um four four years, um, four years and some change since uh losing my wife. And I am now kind of in this whole new world of starting companies for grief-related content and helping people. Um, you know, like you said, we're kind of walking these similar paths, as well as being a solo dad to three kids. And the interesting part is after four years, realizing, oh shit, we never learned how to be a family of four. We're always a family of five. And I kind of came to this moment in time, like two or three months ago, where I was like, yeah, I'm really failing here. We have to relearn all of this and become a family of four, especially if I plan on having somebody else come in, you know, to develop a new family. So it's it's a really interesting place to be in. Um, the grief has really transformed and changed into something wholly new. Um, so I feel like I'm in a new phase of that.

Matt: 4:49

Yeah. Um, wife's name Ari Ariana. Ariana. Ariana. Um, and how old are the kids now?

SPEAKER_00: 4:56

Uh, 16, 15, and 12.

Matt: 4:59

It's always like one of those trick questions, right? We have to do bad in our head, right? Like exactly. When people when people ask me like how old my two daughters are, I'm like, well, I am they are, that makes me, so they are, right? It's a whole anyway. Um, that's an interesting. I want I want to go back to stress real quick because you mentioned the stress thing. Um, I very similar, maybe it's just like the stars and where Mercury is in retrograde. I don't know any of that stuff, but like I was telling right before we started recording, I was I'm very blessed to have a very good relationship with my in-laws and my father-in-law, my sister-in-law were visiting over a long weekend recently. And um, I opened up to my sister-in-law telling her, I don't know what's happened. I don't know if it's because of I was kind of moving, literally, like moving thousands of miles to start my life over again with my daughter. And I've had like extra, like just stress crying, right? Like just kind of random, like, oh, and I think when you said stress, I kind of my internal dialogue went, I wonder if it's because I there's no one to turn to and go, am I doing this right, babe? Right? Like it's it's your but we're on we're in this silo with a classic, right? We're solo. Um how do you mitigate or um exercise out stress? And is it in different like chunks, right? Because we have personal work, adult, adulting, kids, but like so uh I cannot compartmentalize.

SPEAKER_00: 6:30

I'm one of those people that if there's one area that is in chaos, the rest of my life is in chaos. So this is a really kind of heavy question for me because there's that, there's grief, there's this mental health struggle that I've had since I was a kid, um, which I've been very open about previous to my wife getting cancer. And there's been a really big development in which I have been um misdiagnosed for 16 years.

Matt: 6:59

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 7:00

And yeah, so this year, um, I just got a diagnosis that has transformed my stress, my life, and everything. So finding out that I'm I have OCD, um, specifically pure O and relational OCD and ADHD. And finding out, you know, I'm a huge advocate for therapy. Um, and I'll I'll get to the the pointed question, but I'm a huge advocate for therapy because, you know, like I said, I've had mental health struggles since I was as long literally as long as I can remember. And once I got married, you know, I was engaged to my wife at 19 years old. We were high school sweethearts, we got married, and we had a child right away, my daughter. And that just brought up this immense amount of depression, and it just floored me. And at that point, before my daughter was born, there was kind of a do or die. Either I go get help, or you know, we don't know what's gonna happen. So I've been on this journey for 16 years, and I feel like I've like I I have been to every modality of therapy, every esoteric type of therapy you could think of. I have had multiple therapies last year. I had three therapists doing different things, and I've dove so deep, but I always felt like there was this core of something that I couldn't touch. And it wasn't until you know I had a psychiatrist and my current therapist are like, you have OCD, and this is your um this is your compulsions because it always it didn't look like what you would see in the movies, right? So I think OCD has this really mischaracterization of like turning the lock 27 times every yeah, every every time.

Matt: 8:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:46

There is some of that, but so anyway, so that kind of unlocked this whole thing of this explains my entire life, and that then also brought me to a place where I've been struggling for years because I have such horrible health anxiety after everything that my wife went through and my son, and we can touch on that later, right? That I have been trying to get myself to a place where I can potentially take medication because, like I said, I have tried everything, and for me personally, it wasn't making enough of an improvement. And again, it wasn't so my therapist was like, You're depressed, and I was like, No, I'm not, I'm just anxious. I I just have grief. It's okay that I cry every night myself to sleep, like it's okay that I watch comedies and just cry all day and feel numb and all this stuff. And then I was like, Oh fuck, I am depressed. So I finally got to a place. So I'm I'm on two medications now, one for the depression, one for the OCD. I'm still titrating up to a therapeutic dose for my OCD.

SPEAKER_02: 9:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 9:51

Um, but that to now go back and answer your question, that has allowed space in my life to begin using tools that I have learned to manage my anxiety. So before it was like literally, I was just 20 feet underwater, and everything I did just got me two feet up. I'm still drowning. Right now I feel like I'm I'm 10 feet and I can I can get eight, nine, 10, maybe 11 feet up in the air now. So like I'm finding myself utilizing things so it's working out. Lifting for me is really good. Um, I started skiing, um, journaling, therapy, creativity is a huge output for me and which allows me to externalize my grief and my pain. Yeah. Um, so those are some of the some of the the practical things of what I do. I what a man.

Matt: 10:45

Did you was it was it for you internally? Was it that kind of nagging thing of like that you're saying like no I'm not depressed, but you was it like an internal question where you're like something still isn't quite right? And and is that what kept you pushing, going like, hold on, like I'm because sometimes we go like someone gives us an answer and we don't like the answer, but it sounds like you were getting answers and in for 16 years, and obviously raising family life's moves forward, so you can't just sit and meditate on like well the doctor said I have this, and this must be right. We got bills to pay and kids to raise. So um, and then your wife cancer, right? Correct, yeah. Um, yeah, and then I I think I think to to because we talked originally, and then shortly after your son had a had a scare, which yes, rightly so. I mean, it's into that's another whole nother, like I think anybody that had the terminal uh journey to grief, I think it's interesting that I have a funny feeling that a lot of us get a touch of like my wife had colon cancer, so I'm yep, very acutely aware of certain right, and I'm like, yeah, well, everyone's getting a colonoscopy in my family. Like, I don't know, this is right, it's so it's like yeah, you know, so um, but for that for you, going back to it do you think that like the component of grief that you're going like, no, that's not it. No, I'm not just depressed, no, and then what what kept you going kind of back to like three therapists to to doctors to go like I just don't because it's got to be exhausting. And if you're in the United States, our medical system, none is perfect, ours isn't great either, but a lot of times it's so oh I can see you in six months. You're like, great, so now I'm just sitting here for six months. So, what what was that kind of hamster real drive going, or was it that you just knew you were not in a good place?

SPEAKER_00: 12:36

So I think it's been this journey of we'll call self-work. And I have be like I am so fascinated by humanity and humans. I love watching people, I love talking with people and just figuring them out. There's something that is just um naturally intriguing to me and and connecting with people in that way, but that's also turned inward as well. So I've been like anything that I can do to figure out who I am and why I make the decisions that I do, I'm going to do. And when I tell you, for anybody who has gone through some type of self-work, whether it's therapy, a men's group, shadow work, whatever you've done, if you've truly applied yourself to it, you know how painful it is. And when I tell you the pain that I have endured on this journey of healing is unbelievable. I mean physical pain to go through this. And the thing that kept me going is I know that there's something that is going to help me keep making improvements. So for me, every therapy session is a huge revelation. Like I have these really like vivid, powerful sessions in most of the therapies that I do. I did somatic therapy and and I was having visualizations, no drugs, just meditation and stuff. So to keep going was I can't live my life this way because I have things that I want to do. And then it goes in these cycles where I'm like, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna push, and then I'm like, fuck, I can't do this anymore. Right. I hate everything, I don't want to be here. Why aren't you here, Ariana? Why the fuck did you leave me? I can't do this, screw my kids, I'm running away into a cave, or I'm just gonna die. Yeah, and then you kind of get back up after a certain amount of time, and then life kicks you in the ass again, and you keep going. And it was this point in time when I was like, I have to stop all this therapy because I am now trying to create problems, right? Like it gets to a point where all your thoughts become pathologized, and that's not how things are.

Matt: 14:52

Yeah, right, you're right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:53

So there's there is a limit. So I did that and I broke away and I was like, I'm done for a bit. Um, but the problem is grief is so unknown to us because we don't talk about it, we don't share experiences that I sit back and I wonder, am I struggling this way because of grief? Is this who I am? Is there something else? What is going on? And I and I cannot rest until I had that answer. Well, it's funny enough, it turns out it's OCD. So, right, like so there's that obsessive. Right, yeah, there's so yeah, like I've got it.

Matt: 15:31

I've yeah, yeah, yeah. What an interesting yeah, I'm yeah, I I it's I'm glad you said that the the grief is such an unknown in in how it, you know, how it dabbles. I'm I'm six plus years out, yeah. And I recognize too through my therapist was like it's real hard to do anything when you're quite in literally moving. Like I we moved twice. My boy, I realized the other day with a rental while while we're trying to figure out where we landed, my kid was six and she's moved three times in her life. And I'm like, this is this is a trend that needs to stop. Like, this is not dad needs to stop moving around. Um, they all had legitimate reasons, it was fine. I wasn't running from the law or anything, but um, I glad that you said the unknown because, and this is where I think what what you're doing, um, and I want to make sure we come back to that in a minute, but like creating these spaces for people, like this is one of the biggest rewards for me, and that's why I say I'm always humbled and honored. There's at least a moment in every single conversation I've had so far where I I and record and I go, wow, like it hits me in some way in the in the grief space, right? Yeah, and one of the things about creating these spaces is to let people know that hey, you know, you may have not cried over your wedding song for three years, but then one day, this is kind of happening to me right now, you can't listen to it again. You could, and now I can't, and I'm like, Why can't I? And there's like great book, The Body Keeps the Score. Uh, the lady that did the grieving brain just did a second book about the body that I'm in grief and body that I want to read. But it's like there's something in me where I'm like, I can't listen to that song, it makes me really, really sad again. And it and someone pointed out because A, I've I'm I've stopped running around, and B, I'm coming up on our anniversary. I was like, Oh, yep. I not that I forget the anniversary, but you just write, and it's like so sharing just that, so if someone hears that, right, or like you saying, like, I you know, there's something in us where whether we want to use the word like full potential, and we go, is it one part? Is it just grief? Is it my my brain operates in a special way? Is it my uh family upbringing? Like all these combinate because we're all wired differently because of the different experiences we had, and we're wired differently when we come out. Like you have three different kids, I am sure they're similar in some ways and vastly different in others, right? And that's right, and you go like, but they came from the same two people. How does that and they're in the same house? It wasn't like someone kidnapped them and brought them back and things. You're like, why does this one not like cheese? I don't understand. Um, so I'm really glad that you you said that, and so I also want to focus real quick on you mentioned one of the things that really helps is creativity, and I think if we were to kind of bundle the other one, is also as an outlet, is physical movement. We and I've talked about this before on the podcast where I think I don't want to overgeneralize, but I think guys, there's a thing about expressing emotion physically with guys. I'm not saying that women can't or don't, but like I there's a story I've told multiple times about throwing a sippy cop in the garage because it bounced out of the minivan and I about blew my shoulder out throwing it. And I was like, why was I so mad at that sippy cup? Oh, I had nothing to do with the sippy cup. I was exactly mad about colon cancer. I was mad about you knowing there to help. So walk me through how you find what works for you. And we say skiing, uh, snow, water, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00: 18:59

Oh, sorry, snow.

Matt: 19:01

I was like, uh any type of skiing, but ski physically, what how is it stuff that you went back to that you used to do, or like or new stuff, and and kind of walk me through that because I'm kind of on the same journey where I used to like to lift very heavy, but yeah, my life that's not a skill set I'm gonna need. So I've kind of switched how I work out, which is nice, but I don't get the same kind of whatever. Yeah, so walk me through like kind of the physical part of stress. Like, how did you yeah?

SPEAKER_00: 19:27

So uh it has been this journey of discovering who I am, right? I think all of us, whether we realize it or not, we died when our partners died, when our loved ones died.

Matt: 19:38

Yeah, the whole we becomes a me, right? It's it's a very, very and it I and I think that's gonna be an interesting thing to talk about when you say family of five to four, which is an interesting concept too.

SPEAKER_00: 19:47

Yeah. So it's been this discovery of who am I, right? Did I do these things because Ariana and I did them? Did I like them? Did I not like them? And then it's what's the intersection of what I do like. Now and its impact on my life. Like you said, there's a lot of things that I used to do, but I'm acutely aware of time and what we have and what we don't have. So if I'm going to participate in something, it needs to be a benefit to my life. And a lot of what I do is to increase and improve and stabilize my mental health, which includes anxiety. So uh interestingly enough, yeah, I used to do powerlifting. I still lift in that way, just doing the three main lifts, but it's I'm not pushing as hard anymore. I'm like, I don't need to. Like, I just need to maintain muscle mass. So like when I'm 70 years old, I can sit down and take a shit without falling over, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So for me, it is about the aspect of release. So it's funny enough when before my wife died, as she was going through it, and and and after she died, there were many moments where I'm literally powerlifting or sorry, um deadlifting. And I'll just start crying my eyes out while I'm while I'm doing this because like it's just coming out of my body. Or there are times where I'm lifting, and like my therapist, she asked me, She's like, Are you angry? And I was like, No. And over a couple of weeks, she was just like brought it to my attention. She's like, You are hiding and masking your anger. Why are you afraid to let it out? And I was like, Well, one, uh, we're not necessarily told that we're allowed to let our anger out anymore. Um, that that is kind of an interesting topic that that we have to tow around. Um, I think there are healthy ways for specifically for men to release their anger, but we're not really taught that. So there was an element of societal pressure to not release it. And then there was an element of if I do, is all that pain gonna come back? And yeah.

Matt: 22:06

The thing, man, I you're touching on so many huge, great topics. Yeah, um, not great, great, positive, just really good. Yeah, I remember very so going on to the I have this theory, and I'd be I'm fascinated to go back and read. Now I really want to read these this other book that just came out. But I have this theory about like grief and um uh the never-ending story and the big sand guy. And by the way, I keep referencing that movie every now and then. It is about grief because Lil Boy's mom died, and we pick up right after she died. And I'm like, I think there's a bunch of analogies in here that we can pull. But the big sand monster, right? He's trying to hold on to the sand and eventually the nothingness comes and he can't. Yeah, and I remember I remember very distinctly having some like we're you know, the cries, just the snot, the movie cries, right? We're almost like it's visceral right after working out and and going into the car and sitting and not feeling like it was coming, and then you know, just whatever drinking my my protein shake afterwards, and then it just comes flowing. And I I have this idea, it's like almost like our body is so spent physically, it can no longer literally hold back the grief. And it's interesting that I hadn't thought about the anger part. That if I let the anger out, is the anger kind of part of a wall that's holding back the pain? Yeah, and I had never really thought about that because for a while my younger daughter would ask if I was mad all the time, and I kept going, like, I'm not mad. Like, do I have this look on my that I'm like, or why are you so like scared of me? Right? Like, why is this little human who's three terrified? And I'd say, you know, I've never, you know, I don't I don't spank, I don't do any, but like, I'm like, why is she and I'm I'm it like there's no good cop, bad cop. I'm you know we're both, right? That's right. And I'm just kind of going, like, well, maybe I was, and you know, with cancer, like this is a really good, I guess, segue into the let's stay with the anger thing for a minute. Um, like, how do you get mad at an inautomate, inanimate object? Like, how do you how do you punch cancer in the throat? Like, I don't it's like I get it when a guy's in a hurry and cuts me off. I'm like, all right, I guess a jerk and meet him out in the parking lot later. Um, but like how do you and have you have you have you come to a healthy way to be like I'm mad at the injustice of of cancer and our person dying and leaving us with this full plate?

SPEAKER_00: 24:36

So I think it needs to go a step further. Sure. So let's let's take the anger, right? The the anger is everything that we thought we were gonna have that we don't have. The anger is the life that we have to live now that we didn't sign up for.

Matt: 24:59

That petulance is foot stomping, I don't wanna, right? That's what I see myself doing.

SPEAKER_00: 25:03

I'm like, I don't wanna and the anger is to take this all the way to its logical conclusion. The anger is that our partners abandon us. Even though they didn't choose to, they abandoned us. I'm not mad at cancer, I'm mad that my wife left me. And that was something that I had to come to a realization of and to admit because you don't want to, because she loved me and she didn't want to leave me, but she did abandon me. That's all my my my nervous system understands is that she was here and now she's not. So, you know, to take it back to the the working out, we were going through this in therapy, like this all came out with this new therapist, and she was like, you know, she took me through this exercise, this somatic exercise and and meditation. And she was like, you know, where do you notice it? Where do you notice it? And the anger worked up, and then I was like, it's in my throat. It's just like, okay, let it out. And that was when I was like, No. So she said, Next time you go do something physical, I need you to go as hard as you possibly can until you feel like you're literally gonna die. And tell me what comes and come back and tell me what happens. So I did this, I was lifting and I pushed as hard as I could. And I started, you know, you you start to feel that like, I don't want this fucking life, you know, that whole like you said, stop in your feet. Yeah, and I was like, okay, okay, let me do this. And I pushed and I pushed, and and so I I have my own home gym here, thankfully. And next thing you know, I was like, I'm gonna let this out. And I screamed that tribal visual guttural scream until my voice was gone, and it just like released this thing, and I started doing this. So then the next you know, the next couple days, I went and I did a spin class, which I never do. So now I'm like on this bike. I hate cardio, I'm terrible at it. I'm a power lifter, not a fucking like I can't do cardio, I can do sprints.

Matt: 27:00

I run to the couch into the fridge, that's about as much running as I do in my life.

SPEAKER_00: 27:04

So I'm I'm in this class, and the instructor, she's amazing. I I did yoga with her, so I was really excited to see her there. And she starts saying, What are you gonna leave here? You know, at the highest apex of this class.

Matt: 27:16

Is this Soul Cycle or just a local gym that I have? Maybe you heard of Soul Cycle, right? Yeah, yeah, that wrecked me the first two times I did that. But keep going, keep amazing, keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 27:26

Yeah, yeah. So so she, you know, she was building it up, building it up, and we're at the the point when it's like, you need to push. And she's like, What are you gonna leave here? What are you gonna leave on the bike? And then that's when I finally was like, My wife abandoned me. I'm fucking mad at you, Ariana. And I started having this conversation in my head, and thank God that the studio was dark because I pushed and I pushed and I pushed and went faster and faster and just started crying and screaming and crying and screaming. And that's when I was like, I'm not mad at cancer, I'm mad that she left me, and I and I finally accepted that.

Matt: 28:05

Wow, yeah, and that whole the whole physical part too. It's like I feel like I'm so glad your therapist and your sharing like therapist pointed out, and you're sharing it with us that it it kind of just confirms my whole idea of like you've you've got to find a way to physically work through some part of grief. And and again, we're gonna repeat this at least one more, two or twelve more times, is that no one's and I figured out why no one's two grief is the same because no two people lost the same person the same way.

SPEAKER_02: 28:44

Right.

Matt: 28:44

Right. So even though like if if you if uh like in in our in in our own family units, right? Like we lost a partner and a spouse and someone that um you know was a yangduar yang and was we were doing the life thing together, our kids lost a parent, even though it's the same person on the planet, that's a vastly different relationship, right? And our our friends law and their friends lost a best friend, and even a co-worker lost a co-worker and and their parents lost a son or daughter, and so it's not the same. It even it's just not because of the relationship, and then and then all and then even if you even if our exact we met our wives at the same day at the same time and it went the exact same course, the reason it's gonna be different is because my relationship with my wife is slightly different than relationship with your wife, right? And so it's never the same, and so grief is always different. But I I believe there is do you I I'm gonna ask because it's one of those leading questions, right? Do you think you would have gotten to that point without being that physically put upon? Um like emotionally, do you think you would have reached that um point through like journaling? Right?

SPEAKER_00: 29:56

No, I think I think there is this untalked about intelligence that our body holds. You know, I I think those of us who are in like some deep self-work understand this in you know, intuitively, you build an intuition around it, but no, like we you can only process so much in the brain, but we really need to lead our life with with our body because that's our nervous it's and when you say body, it's it's your nervous system. Our nervous system got up every single day watching our partners dying, you know, for those of us who who watch them slowly die. Yeah, our nervous system is what got up every day when we had to get a call from the doctor and then the next scan. Our nervous system is what was like overactive when we were in hospice with our loved one. And our nervous system is the one that had us get us through that first year of grief that we can't even remember because we were barely sleeping and could barely function, but we had kids to get up for every day. That's where it's all stored. So now it's like in this chronically high or low type of mode, you know, and it's and and the the parents, the the sympathetic and the parasympathetic is not working uh the way that it's supposed to, and then you add in trauma because we've all endured that trauma, and then you add in abandonment, and then you add in life just normal life, can't find the crackies, you have to, there has to be a physical component. Now, you could do it with like somatic stuff, but it's interesting because there's still a need to physically move and push your body in some way. It doesn't have to be weightlifting, it doesn't have to be running, it doesn't have to be a sport. There just has to be something. It could be pushing up against a wall, it could be getting a friend and just pushing against them, fighting your way through something. Like you just have to move your body in space and give it resistance. Like one of the exercises I've done is in um my some somatic therapy, actually, is she would make me go up against the wall and scream and push against a brick wall as hard as I could, and that's effective as well.

Matt: 32:00

Wow, yeah, there's you're you're absolutely and and that that makes more sense when you talk about the nervous system, not the body, right? And if you don't, the nervous system is you know the the thing that moves this meat sack we're in, really, right? This meat bag that we're we're all part of. That's I now I'm now I'm gonna I wrote down go look at more um physical therapies, but um just in general, right? Like I I'm wondering, like I'm I do like journaling, I think there's a lot of power in that, right? Yes, but I feel that and I I remember I did a um I did not someone led it, sorry. I was in a led meditation, and it was it was kind of light yoga, and then we sat and did a meditation. This is like super after my wife passed, super core memory, and it was with other widows and widowers, and the and the the instructor asked for names, right? It was amazing, and just randomly was kind of doing like random ward association, right? He was like, you know, car, cat, dog, whatever, and then he would just drop the person's name, right? So he'd be like Brad, and I was like Brad, whatever. And then he said, My wife's name, Marcy, and it was the most surreal image I'd ever gotten in like color, right? It wasn't like I saw her, but it was all these colors, and then he went on to, you know, hot dog and snowball, and I was like, What the heck was that? And then I started crying, and I was like, What's right, it was right, and it's amazing because the body had been worked a little yoga. I mean, I know yoga can be hard, but and then it was this relaxing thing. And I remember going, Wow, that tapped into something at I think it was just over a year out. Um, I hadn't tapped into yet. And I was like, Oh, there's there's something there. Um, yeah, that's a so do you find yourself is is now the physical movement. Sorry to kind of segue. I have I definitely have a touch of ADHD, so bear with me all the time. I'm like, I'm just now figuring out everyone's brain doesn't work the way mine does. I was like, really? Yes. Uh 40, it's 49. I'm like, oh it's gonna be a rough year for me. Oh my gosh. I'm like, oh, we got some appointments. Anyway, I'm like, really? People's brains just don't um with the working out thing. Is it for me? And I'm just gonna make the analogy of music, I have a cry list that if I have an itch, I can't scratch, right? Like it just I can't get the cry out. Do you are you at a point now where you're like, oh, if I if I really need to, if something's not feeling right, if my body, I'm I'm a little out of sorts, are you feeling like, let me go do a heavy lift and scream and it comes out? Or is it is it kind of once it's exercised a bit, it doesn't need to come back as much? Like, how does that like once you've kind of poured that cup out, does it need to be poured out again? Or like how are you feeling now, I guess?

SPEAKER_00: 34:38

Like with your Yeah, I I I'm not sure if it's the same for everybody, but for me specifically, I think there is the idea of of always going deeper. So, you know, you you want like I I have to keep pulling the thread, right? Like, you know, on the whole, I have to just keep pulling it and be like, oh, I I found that knot, unknown it, and I'm gonna keep going. And then it's like, oh shit, that knot just kind of re-notted itself. Like you're you're going in and out of all these different things that we experience, but but it's like it's almost like the stock market, right? If you go look at a graph at a a particular stock and you look at it on the week, it's just all over the place.

SPEAKER_02: 35:21

Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 35:21

But if you look at it on a month, it's this or a year, it's this smooth elevation up and to the right.

Matt: 35:28

Okay. I like that. That's the progression.

SPEAKER_00: 35:31

Yeah, because there are all these dips, and it's like fuck now. I'm back at this thing again, and then shit, now just drop me down. But but you're always still always going up and to the right, even though a lot of the times it feels like you're back down in the hole, you're never quite back down at the same level or in the same way.

Matt: 35:51

Yeah, it's a really perspective, is a really hard thing to get. Oh, yeah. When I think I like how you broke down the stock versus like the stock market. Like, yeah, I think a lot of solo dads, and we make this joke often where we go like it's a low bar for being a good dad, right? We kind of go like it is right, and we can that's a whole nother that's a whole nother podcast. Um but one of the things that is like when we you know someone tries to give me like a you're doing great, or you know, you're such a good dad, I go, my my immediate reaction is yeah, but right?

SPEAKER_00: 36:22

Yeah, exactly.

Matt: 36:23

Because I'm in the in you talk about like I'm in the daily stock trading. I'm like, yeah, but I'm down four today. Like this is not gonna be like the laundry didn't get full and I didn't match the socks, and they're like, Yeah, but she's fed and she's she's fine, right? And I'm like, Yeah, but um, but then you go back and I go six years out, and even with a couple of moves and stuff, like there's there's things I look at now, like even this journey that I'm on now with solo dad and connecting with people like you. I'm like, oh, there was zero chance in hell I could have done that five years ago, right? Because like you talk about, like if it wasn't for Facebook memories, I have no idea what it did with the first nine months after loss, right? Like zero. I'm like, I don't know. Oh, you were in you were in Michu Picchu for Christmas. Sure, I was why not? I don't know. Check out Facebook Memories. Um, so that is an interesting because I feel like I'm really interested now in like seeing I've talked to my therapist as well about like the whole physical thing and going like where is it stored? What's going on? Yeah because I definitely it resonated when you said like in our society, like um it's just not great to go to child pickup at school and just rage, like not in any human, just be mad as hell. That's right. If you're if you're just you know throwing out sippy cups and listening to death rage metal at the in the pickup line, they're like, is he okay? Nubs, right? So you're right. There it you gotta find a good avenue to let the the anger out. And I I really find it it's amazing that you took the step from I'm not at it mad at cancer, I'm I'm mad that my wife abandoned me even though it wasn't a choice, even it was not a choice of hers.

SPEAKER_00: 38:04

That's right.

Matt: 38:05

Huge man, that is that's a lot. Um, so let's uh anything else you want to say about like the work and the journey you've been on, and then I want to kind of ask about like the work and the journey your kids have been on to kind of lead from the family of five to the family of four thing.

SPEAKER_00: 38:21

Yeah, I think the last thing I would say is like it's it's important to realize that we can't logic our way out of pain and mental health, right? If we could, a lot of us wouldn't be dealing with it, and grief would be a lot easier if we could logic our way out of it.

Matt: 38:36

That's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_00: 38:37

I think it's coming to the acknowledgement that we have to feel our way through it, and if you don't, it's still gonna come for you. Could be 20 years from now, it's still gonna come for you.

Matt: 38:51

I don't know how many books I've read, and this is why I don't think there's just one book on grief, too. Like you can't log if there was a blueprint, we'd all do it. We'd be like, Exactly, you know, eat the three green MMs and do five push-ups and journal, and you're good. I'd be like, where's that recipe for success, right? Yeah, I'd love that. I love you can't logic your way out of it. That's that's awesome. And the other one I'm I I reiterate with you as well. I try to tell people early on, especially in the men's group, right? And our in in with dealing with men and in whether or not their solo data is is just a bonus, anyway. Um, is like, if you do not uh give grief a space, place, and way to be expressed and witnessed is the other part, whether it's in a group or in a journal, whatever, it's gonna come. It may, it might, like you said, might be in two weeks, might be in 20 years, but you're gonna make a decision, you're gonna be balling your eyes out, and you're like, what is this? Your best friend's gonna, it's gonna come if you don't exercise it in a way to get out of us in in ways, it's it's it's gonna be there. It's gonna be there.

SPEAKER_00: 39:53

It will. We cannot run it. And the two things to focus on are you know, we've been talking a lot about the the body. Body of the nervous system and exercising that in terms of you know the rage and anger, but I would say find out if you are masking your anger with something. For me, I was masking it with sadness, funny enough. And understand if you don't already begin to just pay attention to your body. Where do I feel this thing? Oh, I'm feeling anxious right now. Where do I feel it? Is it in my hands? Do I feel like I want to ball them up? Is it in my chest? Do I mean is it tight? As you begin to develop this skill of just noticing your body, that is the first step into kind of getting into this work. And the ultimate goal, I feel like, and and you know, this is a little bit hyperbolic, but the ultimate goal is to be able to look in the mirror and say, I see my humanity. Right? You're like, well, somebody says I'm a good dad, and I'm like, but right, and I think that is probably an extreme. I do that all the time. It's a very common experience.

SPEAKER_02: 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:01

But if I told you, hey man, like this is what the day was like, and oh, I I can't believe I failed, you'd be like, What are you talking about? You did amazing, right? Because you can see my humanity, but you can't see your own. And we and we and for all of us, it's going to be different in what that means for me. And that oh shit, my brain is just operating in a way that is not typical, and there's a reason why I'm feeling this way. Now I can almost separate myself from it and be like, that's that thing. And I can start to like slowly begin to see my humanity. And over time, the hope is that I'll begin to love myself in my humanity. Because, like you said, there are so many things that I I hate myself for that I've done, especially the past four years. Sure. I I hate myself for it, and I wish I could have done different, and I wish I could be perfect, but we have to see our humanity. But it takes a lot to get there.

Matt: 42:03

Yeah. And I also, man, that is those two really solid points. I also like the idea of when you start to focus on where something feels. I I think that also can lead you to like, oh, I have a, I don't want to say trick, but I have I have a weight. Now that I've identified it, I know I can go do this or this works for me. Because if you don't, yeah, it's kind of you know, it's like, why does why does my ankle always hurt? You're like, well, stretch it out. You're like, oh yeah, I can do those exercises now. Um, those are two really good solid points, man. I appreciate it. Um, let's let's talk about kind of segue are are the what type of therapy or as a family or individuals and whatever you're comfortable sharing with the kiddos, and and how like what would you recommend at their ages for other dads dealing with loss for their family that changed? And then I oversimplified, but I do like yours. Like your family went from a family of five to four, and I talk a lot about to people when they're like, you know, should I move? Should I stay? What should I do? I said, Well, this is when the we becomes a me. Like if you hated pickleball, no offense to people play pickleball, but you play it as a couple, you don't have to play it anymore if you don't want to. Exactly. Touched on that a bit. And there's nothing wrong. That's not a that's not a I'm misremembering my spouse or I'm dis I'm I'm making a display house. It's like, you know what I don't have to do? I don't have to do that anymore. It exactly. If it doesn't, if it doesn't, if it doesn't fill me up or speak to me, that's right. And especially with the amount of time we have a solo dad. So uh with the kiddos, uh, what type what were they in the same sort of kind of deep journey, or was it um they're the best of both of you guys, so they're not as deeply flawed as you are, might be.

SPEAKER_02: 43:40

Um yeah, right, right.

Matt: 43:44

Yeah, I know my my kiddos got a whole bunch of anxiety. I don't know where it comes from. Um but so a little bit about that just to kind of share with other dads about therapy, and then um, like as you've said in the last, you know, recently kind of realizing, oh, we need to be a family of four, you know, not a family of five, that kind of process.

SPEAKER_00: 44:01

Yeah. Uh well, I would first say all kids are gonna grieve differently, and kids are gonna grieve differently at different points in their life.

Matt: 44:10

That's true.

SPEAKER_00: 44:11

So it's it's first an acknowledgement to them. Hey, my grief is is going to be different than yours because mine is this constant thing in my life of the person in the future that I lost. Yours is developmental. You're going through these different stages and these milestones in life, and it changes and molds for them. Sometimes they're not going to think about it, other times it's going to hit them hard, you know, and maybe not when we expect it. And the other thing to look at too is the behavior your kid is going through right now, the problem that they have, is it grief or is it just being a kid? Because all they learned, especially if they were younger, is grief. Yeah. And they might just have that language and that language only, but what they're going through is just normal stuff. Yeah. And while it's exhausting, and I'd say only do it like 10% of the time, it's taking the time to tease that apart. Yeah. You know, pick the times when it's very severe to tease apart is this grief or is this something else? Because if it's something else, then we need to treat it a different way. We need to show up for them in a different way.

Matt: 45:19

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:21

Um, yeah.

Matt: 45:22

And in much like and much like grief is in, and I feel like at least because mine was 13 months when her mom died, I feel like I, as the logical, even though we can't logic our way out of grief, I can make I can make grief touch any part, right? So like if she if she has an issue with a thing, I go, oh, well, it's you know, obviously because she's missing her mom, not because exactly it's a normal thing for a six and a half year old to do.

SPEAKER_00: 45:50

Yeah, that's right. Yep, a hundred percent.

Matt: 45:53

As as the as the adult, right? Or go like, or it's just it's just she's six. Yeah, it's a normal six-year-old thing to be doing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:01

But it's hard because we're exhausted. Yeah, so it's easy to be like, well, it's just grief, and I can either just excuse the behavior and not address it, or whatever the case might be. Like, we all kind of go through that normally as a parent, and now you have this added layer, which is why solo parenting is different than single parenting.

Matt: 46:19

Uh, I'll preach that one from the rooftops. I I hear you, brother.

SPEAKER_00: 46:23

So therapy-wise, yeah. Therapy-wise. So they each have their individual therapists. Good. Um, we did that for years and years and years. We just started family therapy.

Matt: 46:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 46:33

And I wish I did this sooner. Um, this is one thing that I I deeply regret, but I think I needed to be in a place where I had the bandwidth to do it. Right. Understandable. So getting to a place where I'm medicated, where I'm able to have more reserves, and you know, the timing of it was the timing of it, and I can't change it. But right, family therapy, individual therapist. The other thing is what I would argue is even more important. We can't really be there for them. And that's purposely like you know, provocative, but we can't be there for our kids, they need other people, they need their grandparents, they need their siblings, they need their uncles, their aunts, their friends, because we are so connected to their grief that we can't necessarily show up for them in that kind of way, especially dads to daughters. I'm very close with my daughter, yeah, very close, but I still can't be there for her in the ways that she needs.

Matt: 47:36

Do you think that default of like the protector kicks in where you're like, I need to mitigate all pain, whether it's internal or like physical or emotional? Because that's what I noticed with me. Like, I almost like there's a lot of things I think I subconsciously avoid exposing my daughter to because I think it's gonna cause her emotional pain. It may not, but I'm like, I just we're just for example, again, no shade to anybody who does this, but I am not going to be a dance dad because I feel that's too many moms and it's too much hair and it's too much sparkle, and dad's gonna ball his eyes out because mom's not here to help. There are wonderful dance moms that would step in. But like, I'm like, um, nope, we're not doing it. It's hard, it's too many, it's too many moms.

SPEAKER_00: 48:18

My daughter cheered, so well, they right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, kind of a little. Yeah, I was the only dad around, you know, or one of two, right? Exactly. It's um it's just this interesting thing of where does our grief conflict with our children's grief? And where do we need to say, I'm sorry, but my grief supersedes you right now? And then where what are those moments when we say your grief supersedes mine, and I need to just shut up and show up? And none of this is easy, and I think we're only gonna get it right five percent of the time if I'm being real. But I think just having the awareness of it, hopefully, that five percent is those pivotal moments.

Matt: 49:01

Yeah, that's really yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, I've never really thought about it that way. Where, like you said, like my grief is superseding your grief. Yeah, I definitely get the I definitely have leaned way more into the it takes a village, and it's I gotta find a better acronym. But the one that just pops in is it's not FOMO, it's not fear of missing out, it's more like fear of being involved, right? So, like perfect example, just recently, uh amazing father-in-law, amazing sister-in-law coming to town, and they're doing whatever with hers. I'm folding laundry, something in the garage, doesn't matter, but I'm like, I'm missing out on yeah, Barbie's Ranger party down in the basement. I'm like, I'm like, but that's her time with her aunt, and it's this weird, like, we can't be everything to them all the time. Not that we we we wouldn't try to be anyway if our spouse was alive, but it's almost like it's kind of like if people send their kids away to overnight camp, you're like, Oh, I'm so glad to have the extra time and energy to do what I need to do, but you also miss the living hell out of them, right? You know, you can't you you can't do both, you can't, and and what's weird is like we wouldn't if our person was alive, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00: 50:14

No, but we try to now, right?

Matt: 50:16

Which is weird parents, which is weird, right? Yeah, you we wouldn't look at I wouldn't look at my wife and be like, hey, I'm gonna mom the hell out of this right now. You can take off.

SPEAKER_00: 50:24

She'd be like, What are you doing? Right. But we feel like we have to step in initially, yeah, and then I think we get to a place where we're like, Yeah, we can't do that, can't sustain it. Like, literally, it was it was killing me.

Matt: 50:34

I I ended up getting sick for three months, three months for like exertion and anxiety and stress, non-stop.

SPEAKER_00: 50:42

And I was I was like sick to the point where I was like, it was hard to get out of bed a lot of days, still trying to do everything because you just get so run down and your body can't take it. And I think like we just have to we have to learn we have to learn to identify our children's needs and not what we need our children to need.

Matt: 51:09

Oh, say that again.

SPEAKER_00: 51:10

That's really so we we need to learn to identify their needs, not the needs that we think they need, the things that we want them to need, right? Like, for instance, um, we'll take this in the grief space. Yeah, it was Mother's Day last year, yep, and I felt like shit, and it was awful. And I woke up and I was miserable, and we had to go out and we had to celebrate my sister and my mom, and we had to go to dinner, and I'm like, all those live moms, they're the worst, right? And I'm just miserable. My kids are just excited to go see their cousins, of course, yeah. And I was like, you guys are have you thought about mom at all? No, not really. What? And I was like, in that moment, I'm like, I don't want to be alone. You need to be sad, you need to be upset, you need me to help you because I feel like shit, and I need you to feel like shit, so I don't feel fucking alone. But they did it, they were fine. You need you to be sad right now for me, yeah, right. You know, so it's so I can help you with your mom.

Matt: 52:16

Yeah, or your mom, yeah, so I can watch you be sad. You're not wrong, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 52:22

So it's just being being aware of being aware of all that, and and it's really just what is our intention with our kids and figuring out what do you want them to leave your house with. You know, my kids became hyper-independent, and I and I kind of went the opposite of you, where I was just like, you guys do whatever you want, I'm just gonna be over here crying and dying and trying to keep the house going. And they kind of like literally just they would come and go as you know, my son would ride his bike all over, like they were just gone, nobody knew where anybody was, you know. So I went the extreme opposite where I was like, I don't have the bandwidth, I can't deal with this. You guys have to learn how to take care of yourselves because I can barely keep things together. I gotta work, I gotta do laundry, I gotta feed you, I gotta grocery shop, I gotta take care of your school. I got 20 emails from school today, I got emails over here, I got this person. You're asking me, you're asking me, you're asking me. I don't know. So that's where we started, where I said, Oh shit, that's good because they developed a lot of skills, but there needs to be that time where we're sitting down for dinner, or we're sitting and playing a game, we're doing video games, we're doing things together again as a family.

Matt: 53:34

Yeah. That's such a it's such an interesting thing about like when you say bandwidth and and it's it was so weird for me. It was well, I was lucky enough that my mom was living with me, and I I actually just recently listened to one of the Seamus Plug other solo dad podcasts. And um, and I was retelling about like my mom's was like this she's a she's a she's the saint of putzing around in a good way, right? Like laundry, dishes, and so I'm like six to nine months out, and I don't think I'd done a load of laundry, I hadn't done a load of dish because my mom just kind of did them. And I remember sitting down with her, like, I need to figure out what exactly I'm capable of because I don't like I don't feel like I'm doing anything. Yeah, and what was interesting was like I she you know she's got her own place and moved out, and I was like, Oh yeah, I was I was really not doing a lot. But then I started to go like, but by whose barometer, right? Like, what's more important? The laundry or at the time the kiddo's little, like you know, snuggle time with the kiddo. I mean exactly snuggle time with the kiddo. But like to your point, too, as well, like you know, if all you could do at that time, I mean, we can't woulda, shoulda and live in the past and have regrets all the time. Regrets just we gotta learn from them and move forward. But like, so the kids became a little more independent had they had you, you know, not been doing if you were all over in uh helicoptering and living right cheeses out of them, right? And had them wrapped in bubble wraps and nothing bad ever happened or whatever. And so it's it, yeah, I think it's it's it's a real I I really that's an intro I'm trying to articulate the lens of how to show up for what your kid needs, not what either we think they need or what we um subconsciously want from them.

SPEAKER_02: 55:33

Right.

Matt: 55:33

Almost like I need you to miss your mom today, right? Exactly. Um, I need you to be sad with me. And they're like, but why? Um and you're like, because I need to be sad and you need to be sad. That's an interesting because I need you to be sad, so I have something to parent or something like that. It's um that's an interesting one. So I kind of I think you're kind of going that route. So as you rose up, got out of bed, got got some things figured out. What does the fit what was the transition from like the family of four or five to four? Yeah literally, kind of as you said, I think you touched on it, like you're together doing things as a family. Like, yeah, what was that conscious kind of effort like?

SPEAKER_00: 56:11

So uh it kind of touches a little bit about what you were just saying. So, you know, how through that lens, how do we do that? So for me, there's been three kind of pillars of of how I've run the family, and these kind of came from um my wife and I making these decisions, and I kind of just carried them and evolved them because every family is different, and I think it's important to show ourselves love and grace that the way one family does it isn't the way that another family's gonna do it, and a million people are gonna tell you what to do and tell you if you're right or wrong. Fuck all of them. You know what's right for you, you know it's right for your kids. So for me, it was transparency. We were always honest with our kids. Mommy's dying, mommy has cancer, we had, you know, we made it a part of our family. You know, I am sad, I'm angry, I'm this, I'm that. So for me, I continue to carry that forward. Hey guys, I'm not good today, or I'm really fucking pissed at you because you did this, and this is how I feel. Or I can't parent anymore. So one thing I say in the house is um I'm done, I'm done parenting today. And that's kind of their signal of no more asking dad stuff. He's tapped out, you know, because I wanted them to know. Or it's hey guys, can you come into the room? And you know, reacting poorly to to a decision my kid made. So um let me think. There was oh, so I have two boys. I have my daughter's the oldest, and then I have two boys, teenagers. They're always fighting, right?

Matt: 57:45

Physical, yeah. They have to be.

SPEAKER_00: 57:47

Yeah.

Matt: 57:48

Establish your dominance.

unknown: 57:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 57:51

And they were going at it again, and it got a little bit too escalated. And I started screaming at them and yelling, and I was yelling at the older one and saying, just you know, you can't do this, or whatever I was saying, and he was just like, but I don't understand. When am I supposed to do that? And I didn't have an answer, I just kept yelling at him. So later on, I kind of came to him and I was like, Listen, the reason why I reacted that way is because I can't stand seeing any of my children get hurt, and I don't know what to do when I see one hurting the other because I'm not sure how to react in that moment, and I reacted out of fear, and it's that kind of level of transparency with my kids, so they always can trust you know where I'm coming from. Because I don't want my kids to look at me and say, Dad, you're not okay, and I'm just like putting on a fake smile, I'm fine, yeah, because they're not gonna be able to trust themselves. I'm basically gaslighting my kids, and I don't want them to go into the world and not trust their gut and their intuition, they need to because the world is a dangerous fucking place.

SPEAKER_02: 58:56

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00: 58:57

So it's being honest with them and letting them know so that way, most of the time, when I say, How do you feel about this thing? How do you feel about this decision? So for us, we make a decision semi-democratic. We will make most decisions together as a family, and occasionally, if they're not going away, I'll be like, This has to be the decision. But mostly we always make a decision as a family, so it's the transparency involving them in in these decisions and in the household. So that way, when we went to, hey guys, I realize I fucked up. We need to learn to be a family again. What does that look like for us? That doesn't matter.

Matt: 59:41

It's a whole new thing. Yeah, it's like it's like it's a whole new canvas. Like you can try to repaint it the way it was, but it's like someone took a whole color away. You're like, Well, but how am I supposed to paint a forest if you took all my green away? You're like, it's just gonna be a bunch of brown sticks. So you have to completely redefine what it means. That's really I love the transparency thing. I I I it's It's not happened recently, but I apparently must have gotten a look on my face because my daughter could tell at her whatever we'll go two years. Are you missing mommy? And I'm like, Yeah. And it kind of like you're tapped out, and there was that's right. There are definitely some times when I'm like, we're just gonna watch a whole lot of Disney Plus because dad just can no longer dad anymore. Exactly. And I do like that. I got I I will I will definitely when we're done here, sit for a minute and try to think of our way to articulate to my seven-year-old when I am I'm all done dadding. Like I just can't because they definitely, you know, she's younger, and so like seven sometimes she she'll and there's some there's a touch of anxiety going on for sure with her, which is a whole nother thing. But you know, like, are you mad at me? I'm sorry. I do, and I'm like, oh no, no, no, it's crazy. It's just I had a long, hard day. It was a lot. The to-do list is never to done. And so I'm just dad's well, dad's tapped. So if you want ice cream for dinner, let's just roll. Yeah, just make sure we put your teeth afterwards. I really I gotta find I and I like how you and I I do, I there, I know for a fact, and I'm glad you share this as well. I know for a fact I have apologized to my seven-year-old for how I've reacted to something. And it, you know, the whole like, hey, come, you know, I again I'll just use a sippy cup or whatever spilled, right? And I get all mad and you know, yell at her because I told you not to leave it on the counter or whatever. And she goes upstairs, and I and I do a lot, I know I've done this recently when I get tapped out. I'm like, I'm not mad yet. And I go, just I need you to, since it's a small house. I'm like, go to your room, not in trouble. I just, if you're here, I'm gonna get more agitated, and you haven't you haven't deserved this level of agitation from dad because really at the end of the day, nothing is really that worthy of getting that mad, right? So, and then coming back and getting down at a high level and doing like you talk about. It's like dad messed up and dad's um tired, and this is you know, you didn't that was a I reacted to nine on a severity of a two, like that was not you know, mismatch socks to school is not the end of the world. So I really I really appreciate you being honest and sharing that stuff, and and I do like how you also put the asterisk of everyone's family dynamics gonna be different, and you know, grief aside, um, and how we grieve, like everyone's a little different and what the goals are. And I know, you know, I I my wife and I, she definitely had we talked about before she was diagnosed, like, you know, as we're dating and married, and you know, going, what type of humans do we want to put in the planets? You know, and here's the I'll make it up the 11 attributes that we find valuable. And I what's ironic is I kind of go like, wow, I would only have picked six of those, and she added five more that I agree that are really right. Like, so sticking with that, with the idea of like, what do we what are we trying to not necessarily for them, but you know, hopefully our people made us better off. And so we go, okay, well, let me take the best of what we had, but at the same time, it's kind of like clay. If there's if the 11 becomes 10, I'm like, yeah, that's one that I just I don't really think that important anymore, right? Or whatever. You kind of go like, or you ask your kiddo, you're like, is this something we really want to you know we want to continue to focus on? So um uh and then I like anything else around the family dynamic, and I I'm trying to be mindful of time that I because I can ramble, but um uh uh anything else around the family dynamic, and I want to make sure we talk about your your the unvoiced oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:20

Um no, I I think it's just like like you said, reiterated, just understand that every family is different and you have to trust yourself and you know figure out like you said, I love that that you guys figured out your attributes, figure it out, and and it's okay to change it. Like my wife and I figured it out, mine's one. I have one, and that's it, because that's all I'm like they're they're their own humans. There's really little we can do that is true to change humans, right? Like, we can't actually do it other than exemplifying it, right? So for me, I was like the one thing I want them to leave my household with is learning how to love others. Oh, it's beautiful, that's and everything else. Hopefully, they'll pick up what they need to pick up.

Matt: 1:04:03

Well, and like, you know, trying to trying to take someone who struggles with being on time and and forcing that down a kid's throat to be organized, you're like, well, like being organized, that was your mom's thing. Like, my daughter got that, thank goodness. Like I'm a mess, but she's great. Um the unvoiced. Let's um that's kind of how we stumbled into each other. Um, I really again, I don't know if I said it at the beginning, but uh I really appreciate you um as we kind of parallel are kind of doing a very similar things in in the space, um, creating a space for folks. So tell me about tell tell our folks about unvoiced. And um uh obviously I'll put links in the show notes and stuff, but all the ways they can find you and um go ahead and and shamelessly mention that people article that they just dropped.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:49

Um, yes. So people did do an article. Um, they found us on they found me on TikTok and they wanted to kind of know a little bit more about the story. Um, speaking of like every family is their own, I ended up doing a family photo shoot with a huge cardboard cutout of my wife, and it's super fucking goofy and it was amazing. And it's surprising how many people have told me how fucked up that is, how weird I am, how horrible you are. It's amazing. Um, especially because I got so much um eyes on it, obviously, because of People magazine.

Matt: 1:05:20

So it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:21

Unvoiced, this has evolved over the past four years. So it really all started with a clothing company, Hopeless Moat, and which is still in existence to today. And for me, it was I'm a massive introvert, and I communicate, and I have my whole life, and I like retroactively learn this, that I communicate how I'm feeling based on my clothes. And I think a lot of us do this subconsciously. If I feel like shit, I'm putting on sweats, and I want something comfy, oversized, I just I just want to be hugged. If I'm feeling amazing, I'm putting on my best, my best. So I was like, how do we raise awareness with mental health and grief? And how do we combine that with this idea of expressing ourselves through our clothes? And that kind of formed hopeless smoke. And it's it's allowing people to fearlessly express humanity, is really what it is. And that kind of started to evolve, and I started getting this seedling of an idea of a calling. Um, and I use that purposely because this is the first time in my life I've ever felt a real calling. And it was I don't want any griever to be alone in their journey. And story is the most powerful thing we have, so let's use story, and it started with that. Uh, story is how I got a policy created at Facebook while I worked there for the entire company for medical leave because there was nothing prior to me working and sharing that story with Cheryl Sandberg and then working with HR to get a policy created, all because of story. Amazing, and that started to continue and evolve. Then it was like the podcast. We started the day after podcast, getting people's stories out there, and then it came unvoiced, where all of this work started to culminate into this idea of unvoiced, and that is unvoicing grief, bringing grief out of the shadows. Love it, and that has again continued to evolve and iterate to what it is today, and in its current form and its current state, it is multifaceted. So we still have that clothing, the podcast is still going. We have um the stories that we are telling on social media and TikTok, our newsletters, YouTube, there's that kind of element of it of like, let me get people's stories, let me share my story, let me help people that they can get this for free and they can just figure out that they're not alone. It's building that community. We've started a Facebook community to give people a safe space, like you've done with Solo Dad. And like, we need safe spaces because if you are in grief, if you've lost somebody, then you know this. Most of the spaces are fucking toxic, so toxic, and they are not helpful because if you really want to heal and you really want to have a life after grief, then you need to be in a space that is going to push you towards that and give you, like you said, best word ever. And this came to me a few years ago: somebody to witness your pain who has been there, who you can trust. Those obviously, like it's crazy because so many people start things, those spaces are so rare. They are so we started that space, and it's for people to join.

Matt: 1:08:36

I love the witness and the new the all the kids are what's the new new hashtag? We we listen, we don't judge. That's another one. Yeah, it's a new hashtag that's been floating around on my you know, it's like you have 27 Stanley Cups, we listen to Judge. But like that's amazing. I feel that that's one of the things. Um, and I I'll I'll definitely put the links in there. And man, I really, you know, I think uh there's definitely a grief component here, obviously. Um I really I I shamelessly will tell people absolutely go follow unvoiced on TikTok, the stuff he shares, the things you're doing are great. I think that um the more spaces that people can create, like you said, that are safe, that are untoxic, that give people a chance to witness, and you make another good point. And and and I I mentioned this before, before I think I think before we recorded, one of the burdens and of my heart, and I'm even speaking to myself too, is like you know, the Facebook group has over 600 guys in it now, and it's this is just me stalking widowers on social media um in a non-cree way. Hey, I see you have a dead wife, you want to talk? Like, it's really weird. Um I got that message, right? Yeah, I think of you, I'm like, hey man, uh um, which is which is the and I'm gonna use full circles maybe H brain, the never ending story of the horse in the the the mud of the internal darkness or whatever it is, right? Where he's trying to play, is that a braille or whatever out of the horse? And I feel like and again, I'm not a widow, I'm a widower. I feel like for my our tribe of widowers, I'm like yeah, pushing is what you said, pushing towards healing, making whether it's I think part of it is definite, I don't think I now know after some of the stuff you just shared, that the movement is a physical component to getting you to move. And my tagline in the in the podcast is learning how to live again, and and I'm trying to massage it into right, maybe finding love or a life you love again. Not everybody's gonna repartner, not everybody, that's not gonna be their thing, and that's okay, right? But I think you would agree too, we as humans, as two as as our nervous systems are are meant to do things in community, and community, we are we are just wired to have community, and everyone's community is gonna be different. But I really like and respect what you what you're doing as well, and so I really appreciate it. And um obviously we'll continue probably to serpent scene each other and cross paths, but um the thing I kind of anything else about the unvoiced that we should know about or yeah, unvoiced, yeah, that we should know about.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:12

Yeah, one of the things that I'm most proud of that we are now doing is I realized that I had this experience at Facebook where I was able to effectuate change that helped people. And there's there was this full circle moment where this policy had been created, and then one of the folks that I was speaking with and working with to get this created, uh, I was back on campus because it was in California, I'm in New York, so I had to travel. Uh, they wanted to get grab some coffee with me. So I did. And they started it off with I wanted to thank you for sharing your story and helping us get this policy created because my partner has cancer.

unknown: 1:11:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:00

And I'm now able to use this policy that we created, and I don't know what I would have done if I didn't have this. So I took this and it all came through all these like serendipitous ways where I said, if my vision, my mission, is to make sure that no griever is alone in their journey, what better way to scale that than to go into businesses and help them with their policies, with their training, and building a culture and a workplace that is grief and mental health friendly. And that is something that we are now doing. I have two people working with me. Um, we have an HR compliance expert. Um, like we are going hard into this because I have a lot of other stuff that I can't mention, but there's so many things um that I have a plan for, like this huge long roadmap to the place that I ultimately want to get. And I'm so fucking excited about it. Yeah, because people spend most of their life at work, and I want to go there and I want to help them deal with grief at work because it is miserable, miserable to deal with grief at work, even when you're at a place that is excelling at it, it's miserable.

Matt: 1:13:17

I still I still can't wrap my head around. Now we both came out of the tech space, and I've shared before, like I was not significant at where I worked, um at Salesforce. Um, and uh some VP heard my story, yeah, called my phone and said, run it by me again. I said, Well, here's the situation. And he goes, Great. And I knew of the name, but I didn't like I was so far down the turtle pole. Like I was right, and he he goes, Cool. Uh, if you want to work, you can work. If you don't want to, that's fine. You're fully benefited, fully compensated. Call us with updates, and basically hung up. That's and I was like, What? And then little did I know, that's not everyone's Salesforce experience, but um that's all right, Salesforce did it a lot. They were like really nimble with things like that, right? With with like a coworker at it, I didn't know this because their child was cancer free by the time I crossed paths with them, but they had given them basically unlimited time off while they dealt with their kids' cancer, you know, five, six years prior. Um, and but I still that was a short way to go. I cannot believe that our bereavement leave is yeah, what is it, a week if you're lucky?

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:26

If you're lucky, three days usually.

Matt: 1:14:28

Yeah, and I'm like, I'm like, just just think like when you say miserable too, and again, this goes back to the science. So hopefully uh we can probably find a study at some point. But like let's say you just do something that you know where people won't die if you miscode something or whatever, and you work at Facebook or Salesforce and you come back and you're half an employee. Okay, so what? People are bringing up something, but if you're half an employee welding bridges, like that's not okay, man. Like that is that is you should have a lot more time if you're a mechanic working on someone's car and your wife died three days ago. I'd be like, get that guy away from my vehicle and I'll see him next year, right? Like it's so bad. And so I'm uh I'm thank you for telling me that. I didn't know that's a direction you guys are now leaning into, and I love that. And I actually wrote down I actually have um uh I will email you have a couple people who are professional, like career HR people and the directors of HR. Oh, amazing. It's uh yeah, and I'll send you the information because I know one of them would love to have a better policy because uh they the friend of mine saw how this impacted our family and she'd love to do more. So um, well, that's awesome. Well, then quick thing, I will make sure that we continue to follow you and see what you have coming out because just like me, there's certain things we'll we're both working on things where we're like, we don't want to we don't want to overshout before we deliver for sure. Exactly. The lat one thing, and I was trying to find them. This is kind of season four, so I gotta go find them, but I usually ask a couple of questions right at the end, and one of the questions I like to ask, and even chokes me up um, what do you think your wife would say now to you?

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:03

There's two answers to that. There's what I think she would say, and what my fucked up mine, and go either way, either way, buddy. So I think she would say, I'm really fucking proud of you. And the Thursday before she went into hospice, so the night before she went into hospice, we were singing our wedding song together. She just bursted it out, started singing. Um, she was not the emotional one in our relationship, I was. And so I just like kind of sang along, we kind of cried together. And this was um day nine of her uh brain radiation. She had one more day to go. And she said, They're gonna tell me that it's it's over. I was like, what are you talking about? I'm like, you got one more day. They said they can like slow it down, we can get you through the holidays, because this was in September of 2020. Like, we can get you through the holidays so you can die in 2021, we can just have one last Christmas, it's all we wanted. Yeah, like it's over. And she looked at me, and she never said this before. She said, You still have so much to do here. You have so many things and big things to do here. You're gonna be okay. And I couldn't take it, I could not receive that at the time. I was pretty angry about it. But I look back now and I see the idea of getting to a place, and this is hard to take, and I would never put this on anybody, especially in the beginning of their grief. Right. There's a gift in our grief, yeah, there's a gift in all of the things that we experience, but there is a gift in grief. Now, I'd rather have my wife than the gift, I'll acknowledge that. But the gift is all the things that are happening in my life now, and all the people that I really hope that I can help. So I know she would be saying, I'm so fucking proud of you, and also I fucking told you, you idiot, because she loved Tarazmi. So she would say that. In my mind, it's you're fucking up the kids, you're fucking up your life, what are you doing? But I know that she would be telling me that she's proud of you.

Matt: 1:18:25

And then if you could, and I if you could, what would be something that you would want to say to her four years now?

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:37

Beautiful question. I would tell her you were right. You were my everything. And I am where I am today, and I am the man that I am today, because of everything that you taught me in the 18 years we were together, and because of everything that you left behind in your legacy, that I will protect that legacy until I fucking die.

Matt: 1:19:11

It's thank you. Um every and I don't even think those are my two questions, really. I mean, they kind of are. It is such an amazing thing to talk to widowers and hold this space for them, and then uh be able to both for myself and and them give them a mirror that says, like you you said a couple times, but you said it then too, like we're doing better than we think. Yeah, the people that we most likely loved and admired the most would probably tell us the same thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:45

Yeah.

Matt: 1:19:45

So um, man, I I CJ, I know we've talked once before, and um I really appreciate this kinship that we have. Unfortunately, like we we I we give it both away to have something different, but um man, I am really Excited for what you're doing, and um, if there's any way the solo dad can help out, reach out, and then um I will get your links and stuff to put in the show notes. And as always, thank you for your time, man. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:15

Yeah, thank you so much.