S5E1.2 Twice Widowed, Still Standing (Pt. 2): “It’s Happening Again”—and You Still Have to Parent

What happens when grief doesn’t just visit once—when it repeats? In this conversation, Michael Chapman and Matt talk through the kind of loss that changes your nervous system: sitting in a hospital room watching “a repeat of history,” the exhaustion that makes reality blur, and the moment a nurse gives permission to step away—because sometimes that’s when it happens. 

They get into the parts people rarely say out loud: the numbness that shows up as a survival skill, the impossible job of telling your kids their mom is gone, and the ongoing tug-of-war between holding it together and actually feeling it. Michael shares how writing became a way to carry the story—how a Facebook “vent” turned into a book, and why finishing it felt like setting down a heavy weight.

Book available here: https://www.amazon.com/Two-Days-Calendar-Life-Lessons/dp/B0DK6DFT5D

Ready for more than just listening? Explore the CLIMB framework and support options at https://solodad.life/

Transcript

Micheal 0:00

In the end, you're not gonna have to deal with this anymore. And I said, but at least you and I have the opportunity to sit here when you feel like it, and we can talk about anything you want to talk about. So there again, Matt, what was I done? I was given a gift. I could talk, she could talk.

Matt 0:18

Yeah. Well, and yeah, I mean, give yourself a ton of credit for like offering up the space to say and express the hard things with where you're at in that journey at that time. Like a lot of people won't, right? They don't want to talk about it. They don't they'll shut down. Yeah, they'll shut down, or or it's it's too painful, right? Because you're having these conversations around this is not a happy, this is not a happy conversation, right? There's none of this is none of this is gonna we're gonna cry, we're not gonna feel good about it, but we're gonna be.

Micheal 1:04

Well, uh, I'll interject this too. I think part of a part of me along her, you know, journey with it, if you will, was I started I the difference between this time and the first time was I did start to become numb in a lot of areas to it, because I'm like, well, there's nothing I can really convince her of. So maybe the only way I can deal with it on a day-to-day basis is to try to just numb it out, yeah, and just see how it plays out.

Matt 1:31

Sure.

Micheal 1:31

And that was kind of still somewhat in play when when she was in her last five and a half weeks, you know, in in the hospital. Um, we did talk about a few things. Um, but the the hardest part for me was uh I'd sit there at night, just like I had nine years prior, and I'm looking at her laying in a bed, and then what's happening in my mind, it's a reflection, it is a it is a repeat of history. So I would have nights where I'm almost sitting there in that uh uh medieval torture device chair that they have in hospital rooms for you to sit in, and I'm looking at her, and it was almost as if I was looking at looking at April.

Matt 2:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, like an overlay. Like like you said, like it's almost like watching a rewrite. Yeah.

Micheal 2:18

No, you know, they were very they were similar in skin color and hair color. So, you know, from a a sleep-deprived man who's been trying to maybe work during the day and then make it to the hospital at night to spend the night with her, and you can never sleep in the hospital, and it's you know, you're not going to.

Matt 2:36

You're right. They do design all the furniture in a hospital room for you to sleep on. Yeah, I mean, they look like you can, but you can't.

Micheal 2:42

I I made mention of that chair in my book. I'm like, if you went in a furniture store and that thing was in there, it would be like that, you wouldn't even want to sit in it. It's like a torture device. Some of them you struggle to even figure out how to get the footage. Right. But anyway, that's a whole nother topic, right? It was it was it was not a fun period of time for me. Um, I would what we would do, we we just found a balance there with her her one of her sisters would come and stay with her at times, and I could go get the kids from my mom's and bring them in and let them spend some time with her Friday nights. I would take them home and let them do whatever they wanted to do.

Matt 3:16

Yeah, y'all. So they are they like five and seven, five and eight? Is that about right?

Micheal 3:21

Well, they were they were eleven and almost seven. Eleven and seven, okay. Yeah, noah, Noah was eleven and two years. Okay, yeah. The wrong way, got it. Right, okay. So, you know, typical thing, Matt, the weeks are rolling by, you see them decline. Uh it's heartbreaking to watch it. And then every day, as the as the calendar started flipping each day, I'm thinking to myself, okay, we are rapidly approaching February the 13th. And I'm like, surely, surely, somebody is on my side here, and this is not going to happen on that exact day. Primarily, I didn't want it to happen on my daughter's birthday.

Matt 4:04

Right, right, right.

Micheal 4:05

I could have I would have been able to accept had it just been April's day, yeah. Had it been a coincidence for that to happen. Sure, but I don't want it to happen on Faith's birthday.

Matt 4:16

Yeah, Faith's mom's birthday.

Micheal 4:18

Yeah, so um time kept going by, and um the you know, you were talking earlier about people hang on sometimes when you're in the room with them. Well, uh, there was a night I was there, and this nurse came in, and and bless her heart, she looked at me and she's like, You look totally exhausted. She said, You look like if you don't, she said, Have you been getting any rest yourself and been able to recharge? And I'm like, No, ma'am, not a whole lot. I'm trying to keep a business going. I'm trying to be able to spend time with these kids, bring them up here, and I try to spend as much time as I can up here. She said, Honey, if you don't go take care of yourself in moments, you're gonna wind up up here in a bed, maybe not for the same reasons, but you're gonna collapse. Yeah. And she said, Can I let you in on a little secret? I said, Sure. She said, I've been doing this a long time. She said, I've been around patients that are in this situation she's in right now, and a lot of times that loved one needs to step away. Yeah, even if you go walk around the hospital or go take a drive, just I'm telling you, just do it. Because at that point, she was, I mean, it could have been a matter of hours or days, really. You just didn't know.

Matt 5:38

No, yeah.

Micheal 5:39

And so I I battled myself for a couple of hours, even after she said that. And finally, I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna walk out of here, take a lap around the hospital, maybe, or I'll get in my truck and take a drive. Well, that drive turned into me coming all the way home, which was only about a 20-minute drive from the hospital.

Matt 5:58

Sure.

Micheal 5:59

I come home, it's you know, probably after midnight. Uh, we had a little small Shizu dog at the time. I took him out for a walk, went back inside, got in the recliner in the den. He jumps up in my lap and I dozed off and went to sleep. And at 6:30-ish, the morning of February the 12th, was what the day was. Phone rang, head nurse at the hospital. So, Mr. Chapman, Chapman, we're here just we're calling you to let you know that your wife's passed away roughly around 6 30 this morning. And she said, We're gonna be moving her. Um, I said, Well, I'm gonna leave right now to head up there. Like, we're you know, she may be in the room or she may not. We're gonna we gotta get her, you know, because they were in need of beds then too. There's a lot of flu going around here. So when I got there, she was and I in the room. Um, so I gathered up all of her belongings, put them in bags, and I sat on the bed, and this moment just hit me. I'm like, wow. Uh phrased it in the book of another surreal yet real moment. And I sat there for a moment and I'm like, all right, man, this is what you're wired for. Get up and go take care of whatever needs to be taken care of. And I walked out of that hospital, and I've not had a reason to go back to it to this day. Um, I left I left there and I went to my mom's house and you know, sat down with the kids and told them. But yeah, it was it was February the 12th. It was the day before Faith's seventh break. Yeah. So that's where the book title comes from.

Matt 7:53

I mean, you know. It's sadly very appropriate.

Micheal 7:58

My gosh. So, you know, we were left to I mean, what are you gonna do, man? You you you you're left to pick up the pieces, and then of course I'm I'm like, all right, wonder what's gonna happen now, because and I can't even, you know, I've kind of followed what you said about your story, and I can't even imagine had faith been the age that your youngest daughter was, and having to say, okay, I've got to deal with I've got to be super mom almost because you're you know, you've got a baby that needs to be taken care of. I guess I was I'm very grateful that she was the age that she was, she was able to comprehend what was going on.

Matt 8:37

Yeah. You know, we we I appreciate that. I I think one of the things that I've I've really there's that quote that says, Comparison is the thief of joy, and I need to I need to wordsmith it about grief. But like it like my dad died when I was 11, and my brother was six. I have you know, Faith was almost seven, right? About to turn seven. Yeah, my daughter was 13 months old, you know. My older brother was I think 21, 22 when our dad died. I can tell you every age sucks. Like there's no right, like people like I appreciate like we always look at other people. Go, I go with my buddy Ben, who has who had three littles under the age of six, I think, when his wife died. And I go, like, three. I'm over here pissing on about one. Like just running around, right? And so I think I mean, I do appreciate it. And I think you know it's I think one of the other blessings of grief is is I think it makes us if we're if we're truthful with it, it makes us really honest about like being compassionate and having empathy for our fellow human beings. Like, listen, my daughter was only 13 months. Like, she didn't really miss her mom. She didn't really her mom was sick since she was 90 days old. And so trying to tell a seven-year-old that their mom died, no, thank you. I'm good. Like, like I even think yours is not as right, and it's one of those things where you go, like, you know, she has memories, she doesn't, like, you know, there's it's just it sucks. There is no right there. I I get I mean, you know, I I don't know about your parents, but like my dad was at my mom's now turn just turned 75, and I go, like, you know what? Uh whether it's 10 more years or 10 more days, I'm still gonna want more time, right? Like it's one of those deals where it's just like it's um there's no there are I don't say positives and negatives, but I think there are there are some things that are more challenging and some things that are less challenging at any stage of life when we're dealing with our kiddos and loss. I mean, it's just you know, um, yeah. I mean it it it my I think what when I hear like I I can't I I mean I'm gonna get all choked up in a minute. I I can't imagine having to tell a kid that comprehends that their parent that was there isn't there anymore. Like I can't, I didn't have to, I mean, I had to tell my my older daughter, but she only knew Marcy for about five years. But like I can't imagine the heart, and because you're gonna you know these words coming out of your mouth are gonna do the thing is us as a guy, as a dad, we protect our kids, right? We will do anything for them, and we're gonna have to say something that's going to absolutely break them, and that's not what we're supposed to do, right?

Micheal 11:21

We are not supposed to you know, Matt, a couple weeks, a couple weeks prior to the to the day of her death. Um, I got a buddy who was a pastor, and I asked him, I said, Look, man, I need I need a little bit of help here. I said, Do you think you could go over to my mom's house with me and let's maybe talk to these two kids and kind of let them know that their mom is getting to a point where I want to prep them as much as I can, not that it's gonna make it, but it it was kind of like a heads up, a pre-game type let's let's little brace for impact, if you will. Exactly. Yeah, um, so he was like, Absolutely. Um, and he and he was very close to my mom and stepdad as well. So he came over with me and we sat him down and we just kind of went through the old reminder of you know, they had seen their mom be very sick for a number of months, basically. Yeah, and then and then kind of said, you know, there may be a point in time that that we we kind of phrased it and sold it to them in a way of uh sometimes when God has a way of healing people, he takes them to heaven, and we just have to learn that that's part of it, and that death is part of life. And you know, when we told him that, and we kind of just said, you know, she's reaching a point where we don't feel like you guys need to really go up there and spend time with her because at that point she was very incoherent, um, and just her physical appearance had had gotten to where I'm so yeah, and you don't want to put that in there in there.

Matt 12:52

No, especially is anyone who's dealt with watching what especially if it's any sort of long, even well, it doesn't matter, the way cancer can just eviscerate the body. It is it is it when you when you see it, you know it. There's nothing else like it. You're like that person has bad cancer.

Micheal 13:14

You know, and so they they they kind of talked with us a little bit about it that day, and um I don't know, man. I think it's gotta be the grace of God alone, man, to just kind of put a blanket of protection over those kids, even from the day she had to leave the house in the ambulance and go to the hospital. I stood in the driveway waiting on it, just said, you know, and prayed for that. I'm like, Lord, just blanket them, keep them protected from this. That's beautiful. Put some peace in them, maybe if you can. And so when I got got there that morning of her of her the day of her death, I I went inside the house and I told them, I said, I need to talk to you guys. And they knew.

Matt 13:50

They can they can see it in your face. I mean, I don't know about you, but my my little when she was little, little, um, I must have gotten looks. And I mean, I guess I get them now, but maybe she doesn't say anything. But she'd be like two, three, and she'd be like, You miss mama? I'm like, Yeah, like I give, I just have a look on it. So they can read, they know. They get we get we don't give our kids credit enough, right? They know, they know what you're coming to do.

Micheal 14:12

Ah man. Well, yeah. Um, so that's kind of the that was the end of her journey, I guess. And then you know uh yet again I'm left to try to pick up some pieces, and now I've got to do it with with two kids. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like I don't know, I'm I'm a bit sentimental in things, and I and I try to make reference to things at times just for my own memory, and that that chalkboard sign that I mentioned back in uh when we were talking earlier about the Chapman party of four, uh at some point I just kind of went over there and I rubbed through the four and put a three. And it was the three of us for an entire summer, and then toward the end of the summer, Noah, my stepson, went and moved in with his dad, his biological, and started a new life with him full-time in a town about an hour away. So then the party of three became the party of two. And you know what, man? I've I've got so many things to be grateful for when it comes to the way my daughter is and their dynamic that we have. And I I I tell you, man, she is an old soul. The way she looks at life and her logic at 13 will blow your mind sometimes. We can be talking about different things because I I I kind of made a promise to myself that I was there are things obviously you're gonna censor in life to keep kids protected from certain things, of course, yeah. But they're gonna find out a lot of things on their own, right? Yeah, so I'll try to cut it off in the past, and you know, like, okay, these are things we want to talk about. So we have conversations that are more on what we consider an adult level at times, sure, and she gets it, she understands it, and she's been very resilient about all this when it comes to her mother. Um, because you know, readers will will find out in the book of just how you know her life and her brother's life were. Her mother really kept um them under her wings a lot and didn't want them really getting out and doing much, almost to the point where you could, I hate to say it, but almost deprived them in manners of where they weren't really being able to be a children of their own age.

Matt 16:23

Understood. Yeah.

Micheal 16:24

So now that she's been able to, you know, for six and a half, you know, years roughly now, been able to branch out and go to an actual school. Um, that the that summer I contacted a private school near us and wanted to enroll her there. And of course, they they did an evaluation of her, and God bless she was right where she needed to be academically.

Matt 16:48

Oh, that's fantastic.

Micheal 16:49

Uh, she goes to school in the fall of 2019 and never looked back, man. She has just been setting the world on fire. How she is uh socially, academically, athletically. Um, her Aunt Jennifer, her her late mom, her mom's uh her sister, uh described it to a tea. She said, That girl is living her life out loud. I love that. You know, I decided right now to do anything I can to facilitate that. Yeah, I'm I'm her head Uber. Dad taxi. I have I have running the roads. Uh she got involved in a lot of things. I did some coaching for a few years with her playing softball and all that. So she's very hopefully she's leaving you five-star Uber reviews, though. I mean, because that's so. I mean, you know, I asked her the other day, I said, I really hope you appreciate everything I do for you. She goes, Oh, I did, right? Yeah, we just have a great, you know, dynamic. Um, you know, it's amazing what she can sometimes. I think God speaks to to me through that child. I'll have moments and I've had a lot recently. This has been a bit of an up and down year for me, 2025 has been. Um, and she looks at me sometimes and she just throws some wisdom my way that an average 13 year old wouldn't even know to say. Yeah. And I'm like, oh wow, thank you for that.

Matt 18:08

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think you're six, you're six, six years, yeah, six years, right? Six about six and a half years. Six years out. Yeah. So you're yeah, you're pretty, yeah. Cause I was a I was I was eight, I was uh September eight of eighteen. Um, so I'm seven plus. Um is there anything else you want to say about your life and your journey with Cheryl and anything around like I don't want to say compare the griefs, but like, was there anything of like, oh, this is same but different, or I don't anything around there before we s I'm kind of shift over into the solo dad part of it?

Micheal 18:47

Well, well, one one thing I will say that um the one of the biggest lasting impressions and things that I've taken, you know, from my marriage with her was that she she pushed me to um to to learn more things, she she pushed me more down the road of of reading my Bible more and getting more, you know, knowledge from that, even though it's something I had done my entire life, uh, she kind of encouraged me. And so there's so many things that I have a different perspective on now, just because of that as well. And and some of those very things that had she not really pushed me, I probably would have handled the last six and a half years a little bit differently than I have. Oh, it's even though it hasn't always been a smooth ride. Oh, heck no.

Matt 19:37

You know, um that had moments, but listen, anyone listening to this podcast knows that there are ups and downs and it's a bumpy road. That is that is a given, my friend. There no one needs to elaborate on. Listen, I don't know if you've listened to it, but I know I've mentioned this story more than once. There is a sippy cup that is in many pieces that got flung across the garage one day for no apparent reason because it was just one of them days. Like someone's like, I just got mad at a sippy cup and it's no longer here.

Micheal 20:05

Yep. But you know, if I had to uh if if she left any sort of legacy, you know, is she was a very compassionate person. She uh she she always uh wanted to help out in areas like we had this little pack between us one time. If we ever went up toward Columbia and we saw someone standing on the side of the road, maybe you know, in in dire straight situations, and you don't know what people's stories are at all. You never do. When it's like a in a quote unquote homeless type environment, you don't know. She she told me, she said, I want you to make a deal with me. And if I could, if anybody could ever take anything away from from uh like what her legacy would be, I would want them to know that she cared so much about people, and without judgment in those areas, she said, if if we see people like that and we're maybe en route to go eat dinner, I want us to get a takeout from a restaurant we would eat at, and not one we're not gonna hit a drive-thru and get a you know, a couple burgers in a sack. Yeah, she said, We want us to order a meal as if we were gonna sit down and eat it, and we're gonna take it back to that person. That's we did that a number of times.

Matt 21:13

That's beautiful.

Micheal 21:14

Uh, I mean one time we got back to somebody and they had already left, and she was really brokenhearted that she wasn't able to give it to him. But we drove around a few more blocks and found someone else.

Matt 21:24

Oh, it's beautiful, man.

Micheal 21:25

Um, so she was that was part of that was part of her compassion side, you know. She's very much uh compassionate about other people out there, and he loved her children very much. Of course, yeah, not just the two of us, but she had three older children, right? So, you know, yeah. So I was kind of left, you know, let's let's move on with life, but now I've got a little one in tow. Um she's doing great, so that made it easier, yeah. And then you start getting into all right, well, what does life have to offer? Well, what else is out there for me?

Matt 22:00

Yeah. So with the And you know, I go ahead.

Micheal 22:04

No, no, no, go keep going. No, no. Well, no, I mean it kind of I think one one reason uh started the book was uh during that aftermath period in the months that followed Cheryl's death is I'd take the Facebook and I'd write these posts just on Facebook about I would kind of vent my feelings and I would share my experience with people. And then I started getting all this feedback, and I would start even in comments, or people would send me private messages and say, Hey, uh, you need to write a book. Yep. You're kind of in a little bit of a rare situation here. I mean, I don't know what the statistics are for people that have been in my situation and in the nine-year period. I'm sure there may be more than I'm not even aware of, really.

Matt 22:47

Uh, there's not a lot of you, I'll be honest.

Micheal 22:49

And so then, and then I'm like, well, okay. And they would say, just your writing style and the way you articulate your thoughts, people would be interested in if you ever decided to write a book. And so I started giving it some thought over the course of a year, and it wasn't even until like the fall of 2020. Yeah, I actually sat down and I I just started writing. It turned into 320, I think, pages of wow, stories. So that's how the book came to be.

Matt 23:25

So, did you did you go back and so two questions about the writing? One, did you go back and look at the Facebook post and draw off of that, or did you literally just start kind of, I'm gonna tell my story from April to Cheryl to now? Was it that sort of writing?

Micheal 23:41

You know what, Matt, a lot of people will tell you, and most especially professors or people that teach writing classes, which I never have taken, they'll they'll they'll give you a method of the madness that you're supposed to do. You know, you usually you start with outlines, you create a synopsis, and then you develop your chapters, and then you have an ending manuscript. Yeah, not me. Um, I of course made a few notes, and you're right, touching on the Facebook post because at that point I had made a lot of them. Yeah, so you have like a log. This is kind of like told me. Yeah, so what I did, I I would go back and I would I would copy and paste them and then print them and put them in a file just if I wanted them for reference.

Matt 24:21

Yeah, a reference or to to talk about that post or make it into okay.

Micheal 24:25

But I basically just sat down one day and I actually went way back before um even my life with April. It's kind of like that book is a paraphrase chronological order of my life from the time I was a kid, and some lessons I learned throughout my youth, and then all of the major events in my life leading up to about I might think I finished the book in uh September of last year, so it's only been out October the 17th, I think was a year it's been out.

Matt 24:54

Okay.

Micheal 24:55

So it is basically it takes you all the way up until last fall. Wow. And I just wrote it and I broke it up into chapters and then went back and edited a little here and took away a little bit there. And um before I knew it, I had a 320-page manuscript that needed to be edited.

Matt 25:13

That's fantastic.

Micheal 25:14

And it came out uh a girl I was actually dating for two years. She she had been through some similar things as me. She had she was a widow and she had also been through a divorce. And I told her after several conversations throughout the years I was with her, I said, I think you can write a book too. I ended up writing one about her story, and uh she was able to get it published, and hers came out and released the day before mine did last year. So there's two more.

Matt 25:44

Two more.

Micheal 25:44

Two more. You know what they say things come in pairs.

Matt 25:47

They well, man, you are you are the walking epitome of that. When when you when you put the bow on the book, was there any sort of cathartic healing that happened? Was it yeah? I can only imagine because I know so. My joke I tell people I'm stealing for someone's people people will be like, You should you should write a book. I said, Well, I do a podcast because I can't write, and I have a podcast because I have a face for radio. Like, I can't. We all got to know our lane. But like, because I found I'm not a great prolific, I'm a I'm a sporadic journaler, and I have found that when I journal on any sort of regular basis, something shifts inside of me, especially if I'm dealing with something. Like if it's a theme, right? And I go back and I'm journaling, I'm journaling, I'm like, okay, I'm processing some stuff as I'm writing. Um what when you when that kind of when you when you put the last dot on the period of the book, was was there like a I don't want to say I'm I don't we're never done with it. We can just get really efficient at carrying grief. But what was that feeling like?

Micheal 26:53

And then I could I could I could breathe. It felt like I'd sat down a heavy weight because I had released it. I got it. Yeah, it's whether or not you know my thing with it was whether or not it sold one copy, or I told some people I said, you know what, if someone sticks it under a table and it has a short leg to keep the table from rocking, I'll consider it successful.

Matt 27:16

I know the best-selling table leveling book there is. Yeah, well, this is kind of what we said about the podcast when we first ever recorded one, and then we finally got the gumption to release it. The two guys that kind of started this with me, Ben and Ken, we were like, if it just helps one person, that's all that matters, right? That's all that matters, just one, right? And it's beyond that.

Micheal 27:38

Right. I will say this it was not easy to write because in order to articulate it in the story form and get it the readers gonna keep their attention, you have to re-lift every single moment. Yeah, wow, and you know, I I've gotten a lot of great feedback on it. Um, it's hard to promote a book nowadays, really. I mean, when you're doing it on your own, you're kind of relying by word of mouth, and of course, you can pay people to do it, but then you start dipping into this and that. But yeah, you know, the feedback I've gotten on it has been tremendous from people that have even sent me private messages and said, you know what, man, this thing touched home with me, and I view life so much differently in my home life and how I interact with my wife, or even a woman says, I I look at my life as a wife differently now, and what I what I took from it was that I need to be better here, yeah, or better there. So I'm like, okay, that's a win. I'll take it.

Matt 28:30

Yeah. Well, you know what's you know what's interesting? I just had someone the other day at because they know about my pod, they know about the podcast, and they said, Hey, uh, you ever thought about like uh spinning that towards like, you know, for guys that wives aren't dead? And I was like, I don't really, huh? And he was like, Well, most of you have a perspective of a little bit of the woulda shulda coudas, right? Like, oh my gosh, if I, you know, not that it would have changed the outcome, more about like, I just hope they knew how much I love them, or I really wish I would have not made such a big deal about this and everything would be okay. Not everything would have changed, but like the relationship would have been or whatever. And I was like, Oh, I see what he's saying. He's saying that most of the guys that come on this podcast had a ups and downs, but had a loving, good relationship that if something wouldn't have come in and changed it, it probably would have continued on that way for as long as we could have imagined. And what lessons can we impart to somebody going like, hey man, that big thing probably isn't as big as you think it is. And if you just find a way to like reconnect with your wife, if you just find a way to start having gratitude over being upset about something or whatever might be. And I was like, he's got a really good point, which I think kind of what you were saying is like in your book, like someone can read it who's happily married, and they can take lessons from it and go, Wow, I can be better at this area in my life.

Micheal 29:51

Yeah, you don't know how many times I've had conversations with buddies or thrown some advice towards men that hear them complain about, huh? You know, and I'm like, listen, um here's what you need to do, you know, it just something as simple as it takes all of about five minutes to create an account online with a florist, you know, and it you don't wait till birthday, anniversary, or Valentine's Day, send them on a Thursday, send them on a Tuesday, yeah. And you're just trying to make her smile, right? And I said that goes more. I said, Man, I'm telling you right now, and I probably have learned that more, really. It's kind of like you said, we've had the shoulda, coulda, woulda's.

Matt 30:37

Sure.

Micheal 30:37

So take those lessons that maybe you, if you'd have had moments to redo, you'd have done them differently. So now I've applied them more in the last six and a half years and probably been way more proactive about how I handle myself in individual relationships than I ever did before. So it's been another big life lesson for me that I try to reflect back on in moments.

Matt 30:58

It's almost like without the loss, we wouldn't have well, we would have become who we are. But if given another, I'm gonna use this, uh trying to find another, if given another chance, we'll take those lessons and try to make it as positive as possible.

Micheal 31:14

Exactly.

Matt 31:15

Right? I keep thinking back um to you know how it goes. So to chemo and all the stuff. And I one of the things I I I keep I till the day I die, I will never, even though she said it was okay. I was like, I should have just like because she had uh neuropathy real bad, a nerve-ending pain due to the chemo. And I was like, and there was a scream you could rub out, and I was like, I should have just rubbed her feet one more time, I should have just rubbed her hands one more time. And then going forward, I'll go. I think to myself, if and when I ever get nervous, I was like, I don't ever want to say if I would have just rubbed, like, you know, given that one la like, don't don't go turn on ESPN, like give it 30 more minutes. Yeah, right? You know what I mean? Like, I love a good ESPN late night, but come on, like, and so it's this weird kind of gift of like, oh gosh, you know, maybe maybe someone else will hear that and go, you know, yeah, it in it, I don't, yeah. It's it's a weird, it's a weird lesson to learn and then go apply because it's there's there's so much uh sadness around it, but at the same time, we get a chance to be a version of ourself we maybe never could have become without it.

Micheal 32:30

That's right. Yeah, that's right. Um I had a buddy not long ago, he was kind of venting about um a marriage, and not that they're on the verge of anything happening.

Matt 32:42

No, but the ups and downs in the we gotta go somewhere, yeah.

Micheal 32:46

Yeah, they throw that they throw that term out there. I'll never ever get married again as long as I live. I wouldn't even date anybody again. I'm like, don't you say that? I said, because if you wind up, god forbid, in a situation like I have twice, or it's just due to a divorce, I said, you don't know how you're gonna react until you're actually faced with that emotion. You can't predict how you're gonna be. I said, but uh I want you to know right now that uh there's a lot of things that you guys vent about that are pretty trivial in comparison to things that you really don't want to have to vent about, right?

Matt 33:19

So yeah. I might one of one of the things that it just happened the other day, and I didn't say anything to this person. They're not really, I don't really know them that well. So my daughter plays like it's a fun, it's like scrimmage soccer right now. And uh one of the other dads from the other team is over here, and he's talking to another people he knows. He goes, Well, you know, I've been alone all weekend, and so it's been tough. And I wanted to walk over and be like, dude, you're just a dad. Your dad, your wife's at the whatever concert in Vegas. I don't, it is not that hard. She's coming home. You want to just be like, be grateful that your wife's at a concert to have fun and cut wherever she was. It doesn't is but I was my insides were so I was like, Are you really pissing and moaning that your wife is gone for a weekend? Like, yeah. Enjoy it a little bit. Here's the urn. Uh try that on for side anyway. No, I they no one they can't know it's you don't want it. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Um but yeah, I hear you. Like, really, you're complaining that your wife need took a week anyway. Um, the book again is called Two Dates on the Two Days on the Calendar, right? Two days, right? Two days on the calendar. When someone goes and gets the book, because I think they should, what are from the solo dad perspective, what are some things, what what is like one thing, don't give it away, but what's one thing that you think a solo dad would would learn reading this book? Like don't give away the specific lesson, but like what are some things you might share? Um, whether it's lessons you learned in your youth or whatever, but like what's some things that you think if a new solo dad were to pick up your book, is there like a little theme in there that they might walk away with?

Micheal 35:02

You know, I think one thing that uh that a lot of people don't realize is they're they're capable of doing a lot of things that they don't think they are once they're doing. You you obviously probably could attest to that big time because of just the age of the you know, you're youngest at the time. Um I I found myself, you know, I remember one night I will say, I will give this away. I was, and I don't even know if I put this in there, it might have been a Facebook post. I was I was in my laundry room one night scrubbing a stain out of a cheerleading uniform so that it could be worn the next day for a game. And I remember I remember as I'm scrubbing it, I'm thinking, you know what, man, there's probably a lot of guys out there right now that are sitting at a dinner table across from a beautiful girl, meserized by her eyes, you know, and I'm scrubbing stain out of a cheerleading uniform. But I'm like, you know what? I would not trade this right here in this moment because look what I'm doing. And it was coming out. I mean, it wasn't like I was really fighting it, it was coming out. You were doing the work. Another case where I love it, you know, like dad, this strap on this sandal broken, I really need to wear them to school tomorrow. And so what I do, I get out some thread and a needle, and I'm like, all right, it can't be that complicated.

Matt 36:19

Can't be any harder than tying a fly. I mean, right?

Micheal 36:23

I got it, I got it secured enough. I think it lasted a week.

Matt 36:27

Look at that, another win. So I do this is I like how you put that. So if I'm gonna say not if, I'm gonna say when people go get your book, because we'll put it in the show notes, we'll put a link, and definitely we'll probably have another, I'll have another announcement about it. But I think and I think people get this when they listen to the podcast. As hard as you might think it is gonna be, it probably is, but you you're capable of way more than than you really give yourself credit for.

Micheal 36:54

Absolutely you are, yeah.

Matt 36:56

Right? You know, yeah, I think that's a big one. I appreciate that, man. That's a that I I look forward to your book getting arrived. I don't know if it was recording or not, but it's in a different Amazon cart, and it's my fault and it's coming.

Micheal 37:07

Well, you know, one thing I've I've pointed out to people and try when I have an opportunity to just share a little bit of of my feelings on things or my perspective is when it comes to grief, and this is something I've repeated a lot, even a little bit in the book, but in some more writings, and it's going into the second book even more in depth when it comes to grief. Um, is that people need to understand that, yeah, you can go and you can get professional advice, uh, you can join support groups, which are very helpful. But know that everyone's got to walk through it in their own way, and what applies to this person doesn't necessarily apply to you. And even though you're gonna get advice, and sometimes you're gonna get it from someone who's never been through it, it's just how they think they would do it. So you just kind of are like, Okay, thank you. I appreciate your you know sharing that with me. But know that along the way you may make a few mistakes, um, and you got to give yourself some grace because you're gonna maybe you trip up at times. Oh, that's a big one, you know, giving ourselves the space. One of the most important things, also, if there are unresolved issues that maybe were under the surface from years ago, maybe a previous marriage, whether it's divorce or a death, is you got to make sure you're healed from a lot of things before you even try and get out of there and start your life over with someone else. Because what'll happen, and I can attest to this and probably could talk to you till midnight about this alone, is the last six and a half years of the whole I feel like I've lived my the introduction to my other book that I'm working on is it it alludes to the fact that I feel like I've lived more in the last six and a half years than I ever did prior, because just the things that I've experienced in that time. And the wisdom that I feel like apparently I needed to gain that maybe it you know would hit home with some people.

Matt 39:08

Some of us need a rock, some of us need a boulder to learn a lesson. It's okay. You know, you know, I I love the grace part because I think so many, and especially in the solo dad group that we have on Facebook, there's a lot of like undertones of failing, right? Like, well, I'm not doing it the way she would have, or I'm not, and I feel this way all the time, like all the time, like not all, but I feel it, I get it. And it's like, well, is the kid alive? Are they are they thriving? Yeah, it doesn't matter how you got there, man. Yeah, you're right. We would do it differently if our spouses were alive, right? It would be different, but it doesn't necessarily mean it'd be better, right? And we're not doing it worse necessarily, and so I think there's a lot of grace of letting some expectations go, letting a bar that you're like, oh, the laundry always has to be done, or they always have to do this. No, no, they don't. You're one human, like you gotta you gotta give yourself a little bit of room. And then I also um love what you said. I've I've used this quote. I don't do you, I don't know, you may not remember this book. So there's a little baby book, and it's called Going on a Bear Hunt. It's actually a poem, and it's this family for whatever reason is hunting a bear. And when you say it, it sounds crazy. They're going to look for a bear. But the phrase in the poem is every time they come in an obstacle, whether it's a swamp or a bush or a forest or a hill, you can't go around it, you can't go over it, you can't go under it, you gotta go through it. Right. And I like you just said it like if you're trying to move on and you haven't really addressed some things that you need to heal from. And I this comes from my grief counseling uh is and I love this phrase, is also you gotta feel it to heal it. Right. So if you weren't, if you weren't occasionally in a hotel room going, gosh, April would really like to be at this hotel, at this fishing, at this boat thing I'm doing, that's feeling it. And if you just denied that feeling, right, it's gonna crop up whatever, two months later or two years later. So I I mean, I think that's super important for people to realize that, especially for us guys where we're told that you know some feelings aren't as welcoming as others, and we're not supposed to express those as much as maybe the other gender supposed to, or whatever. But it's like, you know, I mean, I'm sure you had them. I mean, I I I I hope you had, you know, I had some of my greatest cathartic cries after a workout in the gym because my body couldn't hold it back anymore, and I just balled my eyes out my car. There was it wasn't because of the work, it wasn't because of a memory of the workout, it's just because I I couldn't hold on to it anymore, and I just was sad that my wife isn't here and I've got this kid to take care of, and life's hard.

Micheal 41:33

You know, you know what it's hit me the most is because I've uh I have put myself out there a few times in the past six and a half years, and when things maybe kind of worked out like I maybe had intended in the beginning with each one of them, sure. Um then you end up with another loss of sorts. Then what it does, it triggers the emotional loss that comes back from years ago. So you're now overwhelmed with the emotional loss, and not only are you feeling a little bit of grief from that, but here's one thing that I've I've had to come to terms with, and and it goes back to how I said I'd I managed the grief from April, and then there's still some things under the surface that I've had to work on in the past, you know, even months really that were lingering Cheryl, some emotions that were put in me that weren't anybody else's fault. But the grief of the living can be a very difficult thing too when you maybe find yourself in a situation where a relationship ended, the you didn't really want to, but then in the end you kind of see why it did. Um, so there's been moments even uh in this year alone where I've had those moments where the the grief is compounded from losing someone in your life due to a relationship ending, and then it you feel the weight of everything else kind of come back on you temporarily, so it's like it gets a really heavy yeah, it's like compounded, yeah. So you have to kind of fight your way back through all of that yet again. But I don't know, man. God has a way, and I believe this, he has a way of enlightening us at times, and it could just be through other people and people talking to you and sharing some information with you, and you're like, oh, I get it now. I know what I really need to be doing now moving forward.

Matt 43:27

Did you notice real real quick? Did you I I didn't interest about the enlightening thing? So something happened to me recently, and I finally was like, you just said it. You said I'm like, oh, I okay, I get I get I get what I get what I get what the message is is coming to me. And then about I'll pick a random minute, but about 90 minutes later, I go, you know, I've heard this someplace else before. And I'm like, oh, this other person kind of said that to me too. We'll go six months ago, and this other person kind of said that to me eight months ago. And I was like, oh, I'm finally in a space. To like receive it. And I was like, oh, there's a theme here. And I probably got to take it when we can accept it. But I was like, oh, this isn't the first time I've heard this. Right. And you go, oh, okay. Now I'm in a space where I can do like take it in and process it. But it was funny to me. Did you did you notice that when you've had some enlightening moments where you go, oh yeah, this isn't the first time I've heard this message is trying to do it.

Micheal 44:23

Yeah, not really. I mean, it was like, okay, yeah, I did it. I should I it's kind of like you ignored it when this person said it and ignored it. Right.

Matt 44:31

Yeah, and you go, oh shoot. Right. Yeah. When you've heard it 92 times, you're like, maybe I should listen. It's kind of like the stove is hot. Um, well, I look forward to reading the book. I'll definitely post a review. I'll definitely give it a shout out when it comes into my hands for sure. This is how usually how I end, and usually how I end is I ask some real quick questions. Um, and then uh and then yeah, we kind of ended that way. So if you could say anything to April right now, from this point all the way back, what would you say to April?

Micheal 45:05

You know, I've I've gone over this many times in my mind. In fact, I went a couple months ago. I'd I'd been putting off going to visit her grave. Uh it was something that I just can never go and do. And a buddy of mine had um had tried to get me to go one time before, and I just was resistant to it. Um and I was up at his house spending some time with him, and I and he brought it up again, and I think it's because he needed to. So on my way home, I took a slight detour and went and I stood in the in the cemetery at about 1:30 a.m. in the morning, and uh with the the light on my phone shining on her headstone, and I had a conversation with her. And and the gist of it was, you know, I I kind of was rapidly going back through memories in my mind, but I I I would say today what I said to her then was I just I thanked her for being the person that she was to me, the friend that she was to me for so long, and then the wife that I really could I would struggle to find anything negative to say about her. I mean, she was a beautiful soul, yeah. And uh I probably have learned more, I recognize more now as I've gotten older about just how special she really was. And there's been a lot of events in life that really have made me miss her more than maybe I did at times. It's like, oh gosh, you know, uh George Strait saying I'd like to have that one back. Yep. Ooh, buddy. Yeah, right now in my current life with everything that I've been through, if I could snap my fingers and that one come back, yeah. Um knowing how I would be to her now, even you know, way better anyway. Yeah, boy, oh boy, would I do it?

Matt 47:01

Yeah, yeah, I get that. And then if there's if there's anything you could say to Cheryl right now.

Micheal 47:07

Well, I would say to Cheryl, in case she wouldn't know, that her her baby girl has been taken very good care of, and like you said earlier, she's still upright, she's alive, she's living her life out loud. I love that. Um, and I appreciate the things that she instilled in her at a young age. You know, she put the the the she did some biblical teachings with those kids very early. So Faith has already she's accepted Christ and she lives her life a certain way. And she's gonna be a typical teenager, you know, at times I'm sure. And that's some things I've yet to really go down that road yet. But I I would say another thing of of thanking her for the things that she did instill in her, uh and skills that that faith has that come naturally from her. I mean, she's a she's a pretty excellent cook at 13 years old, and that's because her mother was an ace at that. Um, so she she kind of permanently planted some seeds there that that I really appreciate more than she would ever know. Because as many dads out there, I'm sure maybe they're dealing with situations at home, it's like, oh, what am I gonna do? Yeah, many troublesome kids, and yeah, I have a lot to be grateful for, man. I really do.

Matt 48:22

And Cheryl Cheryl planted the seeds in that garden, even though she's not seeing the fruits of it. Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. And then um if if faith were to ever land on this, and I'll even say no to if Faith or Noah were to land and hear this conversation in this podcast, what would you want to tell them? Is there anything that you want them to know?

Micheal 48:46

Yeah, and it's one thing that I've taken away from these two um experiences of my life is that sometimes I think some of us are actually chosen and a little bit maybe set apart from people because we can turn things that are very painful to us into a purpose. You obviously have been doing that with the podcast series. You know, you found a way to turn pain into purpose and to try to help people and to spread messages and these stories and experiences. I guess I would try to translate it in a way to them where, like, you know what, you both have had losses in your life that you didn't want and you didn't expect, but maybe somewhere down the road you can be an advocate for it and you can actually use it as a purpose. Maybe there's uh maybe like when Faith gets a little bit older, if she finds herself with an opportunity to share her story and her emotions with someone her age that maybe going through it then, yeah, then she too can find some purpose in it as well.

Matt 49:45

Yeah. I remember I remember being about 15 or 16. I wasn't driving yet, so 14 or 15, and seeing not an old adult, right? And old gets older as you get older, but this I said something about like my dad died a few years ago, and this young man, he's probably like in his late 20s or 30s, was like, oh well, my dad died when I was like 12 too. And I was like, wait, what? You you make it like you're okay, like you can live like I was like, or there's other people out there that aren't, you know, that aren't 15-year-olds trying to figure out life that made it and he's okay and he has a job and he looks like a cool dude. Like I so you're right. There is some, and I love I, you know, I don't say that one enough. That turning pain into a purpose is is in there's a book that uh David Klesler wrote that uh because it's not finding meaning in their death. There's no meaning in cancer, there's no there's no meaning for cervic cancer, there's no meaning behind melanoma cancer, that that's ridiculous, but more about like our own finding our own meaning in the pain, which I like pain into purpose, right? Like, you know, we can't you have you know had these two women influence your life and be able to love you and you love them, it can't be for nothing, right? Like I can't, I can't let Marcy's death just be a death. I mean, it can't be you just can't. It just it can't, right? And yes, they you know, and Cheryl and you have a child, and I had a I have one with with Mars, but it's like, yes, that's her like physical legacy in the world, but as like a spiritual legacy, it's almost like the seeds that they planted in a garden that they're never gonna see, right? Blair's gonna go into the world, Faith's gonna go into the world, and we're gonna go in the world, and they changed us, both how they lived and then how you know, again, them dying changes us. And going out in the world and and allowing people to see it, I think, is a good thing, right? Because acting like it didn't happen, I I mean, even if you've healed from it and you felt it, it's like that still happened, it still changed you. You're you are sitting here on this podcast today because of something really terrible that happened, but you've also created a book that is that's already helping some folks. You've you've done more than you ever thought you were capable of, including cleaning a cheerleading outfit and selling a pair of sandals, which could you imagine telling, like, go back in time and tell your I'm gonna pick an age, 19-year-old self, right? Like you're gonna be scrubbing a stain out of a cheerleading outfit.

Micheal 52:12

On the back, on the back cover of my book, Matt, uh, I alluded to the fact that if someone had told me when I was 18 years old that I was going to go through the things that I, you know, had ahead of me. Like if someone if you could go back and write a letter to right, right, yeah. Do the whole back to the future. There's gonna be a chapter, there's gonna be a chapter in my second book about that. I'm actually going to write the letter. I love it. And the way I'm gonna word it is uh it's not one that you would want to alter the course of time.

Matt 52:36

No, no, right, right, yeah. Back to the future thing, right? But on the Cubs in 2016.

Micheal 52:41

If someone had told me that at 18 years old of what I was going to do in my life at that point, I'd be like, Are you tripping? Are you serious? Right. Yeah. What? What did you how are you how's who script in this book? Yeah, yeah.

Matt 52:58

No one person wrote this script. Here I am. Yeah, and yet here you are. You know, the the one I just posted this a week ago. So it my wife, I think, was diagnosed either November 7th or Number 8th, is depending on how my memory works. And there's a picture, you know, Facebook loves to do those memories, of me holding my newborn baby with my older kid on the on the down on the couch, and it's like November 4th or 3rd is the date of the memory. And I post it, I'm like, look at this idiot who has no idea what's about ready to come in about four or five days. Like, I'm in. Yeah, right, and or something like that. And I'm like, this moron has no idea. Or even like, I don't know about you, but I see wedding pictures because Marsh and I weren't together that long, and I'll see wedding pictures, and I'm like, these two stupid people have no idea. Look how happy they are, they have no idea. But I also uh, you know, it's part of our journey, it's part of our the story we're writing and the story we're living. And I don't, I mean, we like to think that if we were to change it, it'd all be better than the same somehow, but uh we don't know that. And and I think if we get stuck in the if I were to change it, it'd be better mode. It gets really hard to live in the now. I do think that, yeah. I mean, of course, I would want my daughter to have her mom, to give her advice, to influence her, to shape her to who she would be in the world. And I wouldn't, you know, I'd give anything for that. Yet at the same time, I it's really bizarre to sit here. We talk about on the solo dad group all the time when we have our weekly calls. I'm like, if these three dudes' wives hadn't to die, this wouldn't exist. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, for better or worse, it's the way it is. So um, Michael, I really appreciate you, man. Uh, I really look forward to reading your book. And then as a teaser, I'm I'm just gonna go ahead and commit him to it. Michael's gonna be on one of our uh we'll call it dating uh advice shows, and we'll we'll we'll follow up with that later because I want to get to where people can talk about what either two do, lessons they've learned, kind of the if you haven't healed it, you're you you're gonna bring it forward type stuff. So, Michael, I greatly appreciate you, man. I look forward to your second book. Uh, I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of your other one, of your first one coming. And um, all the best to you and Faith and keep removing stains out of cheerleader outfit, buddy.

Micheal 55:26

Hey, as long as uh there's stains, I'll get them out. They're out of softball uniforms now, though. Hey, that's fine.

Matt 55:32

I get it.