S5E5 When Mental Illness Changes the Grief Story: Alicia's Journey, from loss to finding helpers

This episode of the Solo Dad Podcast is a deeply honest Solo Mom conversation with Alicia, whose story moves through love, marriage, parenting, mental illness, separation, suicide loss, and the reality of raising grieving children after trauma.

Alicia shares what it was like to love a man whose laugh filled the room, while also slowly watching mental illness change the life they were building. She talks about the impossible choices that came with trying to protect her children, the guilt of needing boundaries, the fear of not knowing what would happen next, and the grief that followed after Daniel died by suicide.

This conversation does not offer easy answers because this kind of grief does not come with easy answers. Instead, it offers something more honest: the reality of surviving the unthinkable one decision at a time.

Matt and Alicia also talk about how children grieve differently than adults, why clear language matters when talking to kids about death, the importance of therapy and support, and why “finding the helpers” can become a lifeline when solo parenting feels impossible.

Content note: This episode includes discussion of mental illness, suicidal ideation, firearms, police response, divorce, child grief, and death by suicide.

For more resources, community, and support, visit solodad.life.

Ready for more than just listening? Explore the CLIMB framework and support options at https://solodad.life/

Transcript

Alicia 0:00

It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be different. It's gonna be crazy. It's gonna be nothing that you prepared yourself for, but you're gonna get through it. And I think the other thing that like is to just keep finding helpers, you know, like take a note for Mr. Rogers and just keep finding the helpers.

Matt 0:32

Welcome to the Solo Dad Podcast, where we hold space and gather for widowers to share heartfelt, honest, and open stories of grief, their insights on navigating the journey after the death of their partner or spouse, loss, healing, and finding their way back to living again. I'm Matt Bradley, your host, and I am honored to join you as we explore the complexities of grief, the challenges of solo parenting, and the struggles of getting back to living, and maybe even some adventures of finding love again. Each episode we'll sit down with courageous dads who are bravely sharing their experiences, insights, and lessons learned along the way on this journey, sharing how grief has impacted them, their children, and their lives. We might have a crosstalk conversation with widows and widowers sharing their experiences, the similarities and the differences in grief and being a solo parent. Occasionally we'll have grief experts on to dive deeper into the understanding of grief and healing. So whether you're a solo dad or solo mom, or a friend of a solo parent, or you're wanting to just understand more about this journey, you're in the right place. Don't forget to visit our website, solo dad.life, for more resources, episode updates, and to connect with our growing community. You can follow us on all the social media platforms, find our group on Facebook, look for us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and on a YouTube page. On YouTube, you can find more content and some behind the scenes moments. Just search the Solo Dad Podcast and remember, don't forget to subscribe. Lastly, if you've enjoyed what you've heard or found it helpful or insightful, we would appreciate your support. Head on over to buymeacoffee.com slash the Solo Dad Podcast to help keep the show running and fuel our mission of supporting solo dads everywhere and giving them a space to have open and honest conversations. Thank you so much for being here. And let's dive into today's conversation. Welcome to a solo mom conversation, part of the solo dad podcast. And I should probably just start saying what is happening, which is the thing called the solo parenting life. I always like to take just a minute, even though my editor says I don't have to, to express my humble thanks and gratitude for everybody that supports us, everyone that listens, everyone that gives me feedback for the good and the bad and the ugly, and also everyone for taking time out of their day to share their stories. And that humble gratitude and thankfulness goes to Alicia right now. Alicia, thank you for being here. Thank you for um being willing to share your story with me and all those folks that listen. So thank you for being here.

Alicia 3:27

Thank you for uh thank you for having me.

Matt 3:29

Absolutely. I'm starting off season five, and I guess technically all of my solo mom podcasts, because beyond my mom, as you graciously said, you listen to, um uh you will be the uh second so third solo mom, not counting my mom. Um, but I'm starting season five with just a question to kind of kick it off of where is your heart, your grief, and your beingness right now, as we are about ready to start this conversation around grief coming into your life.

Alicia 4:03

It's kind of confusing, honestly. Um, my story has been somewhat long progressing, um, and we'll get into that, I'm sure. But um my heart just I think that where I'm where I'm at tonight is I'm really hopeful that I can share a couple things that I've learned along the way and just give like a little bit of hope to people who are deeper in the trenches because it can really suck being a solo parent. And um, yeah, it's it's something that doesn't get talked about a lot.

Matt 4:42

I think everyone will find out uh why you have a mix of emotions coming as as they find, as I know what you've shared with me already, but as they find out more about your story, it totally makes sense. Um let's let's start with when and how you met your husband Daniel.

Alicia 5:04

So um, okay, um, I met Dan at work, um, which is so typical, but I was on a special project getting ready to um my organization was getting ready to move um from Western Illinois to outside of Detroit. And um I met Dan and while I was working on realigning our building to get ready for more staff to come in before we lost a bunch of people. Because statistically, with those moves, most people don't move.

Matt 5:34

Oh, I got you.

Alicia 5:35

Uh so we had to we had to shrink to overhire to then shrink again. He always joked that from the moment I met him, he knew I wanted half because I walked into his cube and everyone had been furious to see me because I was the girl who came around with a pen and paper to shrink their stuff. And I had dealt with a bunch of curmudgeons and I said, Hey, you, give me your barcode, give me your information. And he said, Come and take it. And I just kind of pushed my way through. And um we started like a flirty little bantery relationship for a couple months, and it just kind of nothing happened right away. It didn't happen quickly, but once we started dating, then things definitely moved quickly. Um, we started dating in um May of oh goodness, um, 2009. We started dating in May of 2009, and it just turned into kind of a whirlwind quick romance. I mean, quick, but quick in the sense that I was 22 and a half and then I got married at 25. I know right.

Matt 6:44

Oh yeah, you're so I'm I'm so old.

Alicia 6:47

I know it's ridiculous.

Matt 6:49

Well, so hold on, let's let's set context here. We all know there are places in the world and inside the continental United States that if you're not married by 21, I mean really the ship sailed at this point.

Alicia 7:00

Oh, yeah, for sure. And like I'm lucky that I didn't grow up in a family where I went to school looking for an MRS degree, but I had friends who did.

Matt 7:07

Yeah.

Alicia 7:08

Um, so it was it was interesting. I did not intend on finding a person that soon in life. I was like, oh, I'm gonna date around, I'm gonna whatever.

Matt 7:18

I damp the life. Oh yeah, I didn't know. That's okay. It's all right. Um, so you met you so and I wrote down because this will probably come up again. So you were definitely aimed at getting half, so that was clear early on, which is good. I mean, you want to set that precedent relationship. I mean, I when I met my wife, it was very clear who was in charge. I'm like, yep, I work in marketing and sales, and you are definitely the CEO, CFO, CMO, and CEO, founder, and all the other high titles. I just I have a department and ask for a budget annually. Can I have this much? Um, which is what you got to establish those early. It's okay. Exactly. Um, okay, so you guys meet and then with you kind of shared right before we scored with the move, right? Was that also kind of like, hey, if we're gonna, I'm not really gonna do this back and forth thing, right? Like yes, absolutely. Let's do it together.

Alicia 8:04

Absolutely. Um, I was a hundred percent um if you I'm moving and you can either move or I'm gonna move to Michigan and marry a rock climber. Don't know exactly why I was so convinced on that. And the funny thing was, Dan never once went rock climbing. He had played football in high school, messed up his shoulder, could not do anything remotely like that, otherwise, his shoulder would just fall out of its arm.

Matt 8:29

Understood.

Alicia 8:29

So, yeah.

Matt 8:31

He he graciously accepted your offer.

Alicia 8:34

Yes. He graciously accepted. And what was weird was um when we moved, um, or when we were preparing to move, he was actually sick with um a stomach condition that we did not, it was a medical mystery. And um, that was an interesting time of life because I had never done anything like that. I had never been the person that keeps the notes, the person that keeps the uh prescriptions. And I was just the girlfriend, but um his family was a couple hours away. So I'd go to the doctor's appointments with him. And eventually, like when we got up to Michigan, they figured out a med combo. He was having um cyclic vomiting or like recurrent vomiting. Oh my gosh. Um he dropped like 40 pounds in a matter of a couple months. It was insane. Um, like had an incident of acute renal failure because he just got too dehydrated, and like it was wild. Um, and I was not prepared for it, but I kind of figured it out.

Matt 9:30

Um, but like when I meant half, I didn't mean physically.

Alicia 9:34

Exactly. I was like, look, like this is not the richer and poorer and better for worse, is not right now. It was later. Yeah. But yeah, so we got to Michigan, we figured out his health, we got that in order. We got engaged actually, um, about a week and a half before we left because I told him flat out again that I I told him I didn't want to play house um for 15 years. True. Um, which nothing against people who do. Um, but at the time I was I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I don't want to just go and wait. Um, so I was like, look, if we're gonna do this together, let's do it together. So planned a wedding, like started my wedding planning off at a run and got the venue, the caterer, the photographer, and a bunch of other things figured out in a week and a half before we moved to Michigan. Wow. Um, now the nice thing was that because of my um, because of my organization at work, they did the moving. So, you know, they just came into my apartment, boxed my crap up, and away we went.

Matt 10:36

And imagine it shows up on the other side. Yeah.

Alicia 10:39

Eventually, and mostly in one piece. We definitely had to buy an air mattress because we got to our apartment in Michigan and had nowhere to sleep. But it's fine, it's part of the process.

Matt 10:51

Yeah, it's an adventure when you're when you can still sleep on an air mattress.

Alicia 10:55

Well, yeah, and my dad's saying, so my dad has always said it's not a trip, it's an adventure, and it's kind of been our family slogan.

Matt 11:02

Love it.

Alicia 11:02

Um, and there's been several incidences in my life where I'm like, oh, this fits.

Matt 11:08

This mantra is still true. So you you guys get to Michigan, you eventually get married.

Alicia 11:15

Yes, we got married in June of 2012.

Matt 11:17

Okay.

Alicia 11:19

And um, you know, things were things were pretty good. Um, you know, I had not been in, you know, I dated in college, but it was long distance. So I didn't really know how things were supposed to go. And my parents didn't really fight. My parents have an amazing relationship. So we would have these occasional blow up fights, and then it would be calm, and then it wouldn't happen again for like four to six months. And I was like, oh, this is great. You just tension builds, you get it out of your system, and then life goes on. I did not realize that that was the start of a pattern that was not positive. Um but you're young and you're stupid, and you think that hey, you know, you'll get through it.

Matt 12:06

How about we reframe it to young and you don't know anything else? Yes. How about we're not stupid. I mean, no, not stupid.

Alicia 12:13

And I mean, like he the funny, the the amazing thing about Dan was he had sorry, no, no, um, he had this laugh.

Matt 12:22

Don't we don't ever apologize for that? Yeah, fine.

Alicia 12:25

He had this laugh that filled a room. Like, and I'm sure the people say that all the time, but in the building that we worked in, because we worked together, um, in the building that we worked in when we got to Michigan, um, I was on one end of the building, he was on the other end of the building. And when he left, I could hear it at my desk. Like he just was he was loud. He was big, he was loud, he was, he had this huge laugh. And like what I didn't know when we met, when we got married, was that there was also like on the flip side of the laugh, there was also a lot of sadness. Um, and that kind of came to light over the next couple of years. But like in the beginning, like, oh my god, he just had this magnetic, amazing personality that could just fill up a room. It was great.

Matt 13:19

Oh well, I think that answers the question of one of the things that was gonna be like, well, you know, what drew you to him. But I think uh that definitely he was very precarious, yeah. Checks off a checks off a box. Um okay, so you get so you get to Michigan.

Alicia 13:33

Yeah.

Matt 13:34

Uh and you're and that's home right now. Yeah. Okay. And so you get to Michigan. Um, we'll just say you're in a you're in a you're in a new married relationship that and again maybe had life taking you on a different adventure. This may have been a pattern that eventually gets solved through therapy or counseling. Because other people like I I think of arguments I had when I was younger and in relationships and look back, I'm like, I that probably wasn't really worth getting that mad at. Like, no, when you when you start getting a little older in life, you go, I what's some of the advice uh someone got like it's oh it's actually I'll use Marcy's advice one time. Like, you can get mad as hell for six seconds, and then what are you gonna do about it? Because anger has never fixed anything in the world ever. And I was like, Oh, what about seven? Get me mad for seven. Give me eight, right? Like, what are you gonna do? And I'm like, You're right, you're right, you're right. Like being mad doesn't be being mad that your kid spilt a cup, like it doesn't exactly still gonna have to clean it up. Um yeah, so okay, so um married for a bit, a little bit of ups and downs, but then you guys um we some little humans show up at some yes, so we we bought a house.

Alicia 14:45

Um, we bought a house, we acquired some children on the end of the street.

Matt 14:50

I always say, I always say I acquired her through draft choices. It's like there you go.

Alicia 14:55

Um, no, so we um we had our first daughter, uh Josephine in 2016. Um, we had our second daughter Hannah in 2019, and um they're incredible. Um, they they were hard, they were hard gotten. Um, you know, we dealt with some infertility that was a whole challenging season leading up to them coming. But yeah, like thankfully they were they were both born healthy, they were both born screaming.

Matt 15:23

Perfect.

Alicia 15:23

They kept screaming for a long time and haven't stopped since now.

Matt 15:27

Yes, you may want to get that checked. If they've been screaming for over five years, maybe get it checked off. Maybe they scream differently as they get older instead of weighing more nuggets. Um, so and what beautiful, like old school new school names. I love those. They're like I love that. Um so the two daughters, you, Daniel, uh, home in home in in in why did I want to say Minnesota? Michigan.

Alicia 15:55

Michigan, yeah.

Matt 15:56

They're both cold, flat states with lakes around them.

Alicia 15:59

Yes, exactly. It's it's the same.

Matt 16:01

I am sure no Minnestigonian or Minnesotian's gonna get mad at me for that. There, we are not the same, sir. Uh right. Um, uh, okay, so a couple of little uh we'll go seeds of realizing that maybe there's some patterns here. Now, as we know as parents, solo or otherwise, if you're under stress and you add small humans, that stress does not get less. No, and then I'm assuming, right? Some okay, go ahead.

Alicia 16:34

So um, you know, Josephine didn't sleep for 10 months. Oh like horrendous reflex, didn't sleep. And I was nursing, and I did a I did all the nights, and it sucked, but we got through it, and like, you know, Dan um Dan was adopted. Um, he was adopted from South Korea. There were things that started to come out with um having our own children, you know, some of those feelings of, oh my gosh, this is finally my own child, this is my own DNA. Um wow, that was a that was a totally new experience for him, um, which was both beautiful and challenging at the same time because it it brought up some of those um early, early wounds um from being from being adopted. So, you know, we're moving along, we're figuring things out, and then COVID happens um when our youngest, yeah. Um, COVID happened when our youngest was um nine months old. And that just kind of threw us into a whole other world in the sense of now we've got, you know, now we've got two little kids. We've got the stress of a pandemic, he had asthma, Josephine, our oldest, has pretty severe asthma, and we both were terrified. Oh, sure. She had had well, and Josephine had had um had been hospitalized with RSV, and we both vividly remembered her on oxygen and just that feeling. So we were very afraid. We really like kept our distance.

Matt 18:18

That cracks the the feeling of also of COVID, no COVID, when you watch your little human go through something, it it's seriously vulnerable and and we feel extremely helpless in those absolutely. Yeah, I totally yeah.

Alicia 18:33

Uh yeah, so we like really buckled down and did um, you know, all of the guidelines and followed them really carefully. What was something that we did not expect during that time though was how it would feel when other people had different feelings about your policies.

Matt 18:54

Yes, sure.

Alicia 18:55

But yeah, there were just some differences in what people were willing to do in terms of risk and it created some bigger, it created some bigger gaps. There were just a lot of at the time current events that created some division um within his family. Um, so obviously being adopted from South Korea, Dan was Korean. Um, and it was not a smooth time, if you remember, in 2020, 2021 for people who are minorities.

Matt 19:25

Yeah.

Alicia 19:25

Um, so that added some other stuff. So he actually estranged, was estranged from his parents. So Hannah was born in 2019. They came up for Hannah's birthday in 2021. So when she turned two. And that was the last time that he saw his parents. I well, no, maybe it was October, but anyway, that fall was the last time that he saw his parents, either when we were married or or before his passing. And that was a huge burden. Um, and I tried, yeah. And I tried really hard um to keep the relationship going for the kids over Zoom or Skype and all not Skype, but FaceTime and all of those things.

Matt 20:05

Don't date yourself, Skype. Right. What are we what are we posting on MySpace? Like what's happening?

Alicia 20:09

Oh my god.

Matt 20:11

Don't be in my top eight. Do you know Tom? Um, hold I want to pause for a second, yeah, just to reflect. So when you say his parents, you mean his adopted parents, correct?

Alicia 20:22

His adopted parents.

Matt 20:23

So I think it's worth just taking a beat and recognizing you know how much emotional fracturing that must do to somebody who I'm not, um, who's adopted. So there can be at times, I understand, an underlying feeling of unwantedness, even though someone else wanted you. But now come along and the fracturing happens due to stuff happening in our world, and the people who chose you are now you're estranged from. And so I just want to I want to recognize like how emotionally hard that must have been for Daniel that oh my gosh, now now I'm double knot wanted. Like, yeah, regardless of what I'm saying. He felt like he didn't flip, but yeah, fit in and regardless of where the story's gonna go. I just think for people listening that that's I mean, that's not worth just kind of glazing over, like especially in today's a times and everything. A lot of people are making choices to estrange from family members that they right, which people can make their own choices and and that's but uh this is a little like there's another layer to this of you know, it's not that I just don't agree with pineapple on pizza here. This is this is a this is another estrangement level um that must have been really hard, and then compound that with being adopted, compound that with insulation and everything else that's going on. That's just that it that had to be a lot for him and a lot for you.

Alicia 21:52

Yeah, yeah. It was it sucked. Um it really fucking sucked, say the least, yeah. And you know, despite differences of opinion. I had with people that he separated from they were still family, they were still the kids' family. It was it was hard and it was hard to walk the line, and it was hard to also be the person acting as the bridge that it felt impossible. And it's funny that I say now that it felt impossible because I look back and I'm like, yeah, that was that was whatever. Um, because like compared to what has happened since it's it's a different ball game, but at the time it was just so overwhelming. And I think I probably paid my therapist for a new car, just talking about how do I handle this.

Matt 22:35

Yeah.

Alicia 22:36

Um, but that's what we do, right? Like we don't know what we're going to go through until we get on the other side.

Matt 22:42

Yeah. Um, I think it falls under that category of we there as as parents, as managing things, too. There are times that it's like you just figure it out. And then um, I've referenced this a couple of times in recent conversations where then all of a sudden pick your time one month, one year, whatever. You look back and go, What the f was that? Like, what the f did I just go through? Um, but in the moment you're like, no, this is this is just what we do, right? And then you look back and you go, No, that's not, that was not. You look at the statistical, the statistics in the world, you're like, that was not a normal moment in time for people. That wasn't, yeah, that's not that's not what everyone goes through, right? Right. Okay, so okay, so continue. So there, yeah, post-COVID.

Alicia 23:22

So yeah, well, no, still in COVID. Oh, still in COVID. Um, or still like mid-COVID. So um things started getting really bad um in the fall of 21. And um, to the extent that we would have conversations about, hey, you need more help, um, his depression had gotten extremely bad. Um, at this point, we just thought it was depression. Um, his depression had gotten extremely bad, and he would be very clear about the fact that um he didn't want to stay alive. Um and I remember we had this one discussion where he flat out said that he didn't want to be alive, that he didn't see the point. And I looked at him and I said, Gold sequence dress, gold sparkly dress. I said, You have to make it to our 50th wedding anniversary. And I will come out and I will dance obnoxiously in a gold sequence dress and embarrass everybody. But you gotta make it. And that for a while became my code phrase.

Matt 24:46

Yeah.

Alicia 24:46

Where when he would start to spiral, I would say gold sequence dress. Um, and it would pull them out sometimes and sometimes it wouldn't. And there was during that period of fall to fall of 21 to spring of 22, things got really dangerous. And I didn't realize how dangerous it was until after the fact. Um, but what really made me realize it was we went on a family vacation with my parents, and things had started to open back up. So, you know, uh March of 2022, we went on a family vacation to Hawaii with my parents, and um he didn't want to go, and I was like, you gotta go. Because I knew that if he didn't go, that I would not have a husband when I came home. Um and um so he came and it was rough. Um, and it was the first time that my parents had caught had seen it. Um, they could tell that there was a lot of tension, they could tell that there were ups and downs, but I was very good at hiding and compartmentalizing and moving around his moods and his struggles in a way that kept things as stable as possible for the kids and for everyone else. Um, and you just get good at that. Um, so anyway, we have this trip, and there's a day where he just leaves. And during the trip, he um when he left, he said that he was at one point that he was going to jump into the ocean. Um and he didn't, um, but I didn't know where he was. Um and calling, texting, begging, come back, come back, come back, wouldn't do it. So I took the kids to the beach. And I took the kids to the beach, and I was like, well, I don't know what else to do. So I just kept moving. And that kind of became the next couple of years of just keep moving because sometimes there's just there was nothing to be done by sitting in the hotel and waiting. And eventually he came back. He was gone for about 12 hours, I think, that day. And he had walked over probably over eight miles. I remember he could hardly walk the next day because his feet were so sore.

Matt 27:04

Wow.

Alicia 27:05

And the insane thing was that we had prepaid for this couple's trip the next day, where my parents kept the kids at the hotel or wherever.

Matt 27:15

Yeah.

Alicia 27:16

And we went on a boat trip to Lanai in Hawaii, and we went snorkeling or uh snoobing, which is like a combination of snorkeling and uh scuba diving.

Matt 27:27

Great word, snoobing.

Alicia 27:28

It's it's so weird. Um, but it was amazing and it was gorgeous, and it was a beautiful day. And I was like, oh my god, we can get through it.

Matt 27:36

Yeah.

Alicia 27:37

And it didn't work out that way, but we got through that day, and it was a beautiful day, and it's an amazing memory.

Matt 27:44

Yeah.

Alicia 27:44

And the pictures from that trip are something that I still cherish. So then fast forward, and we get home, and he had agreed to start something called dialectical behavioral therapy, um, DBT. And that was where at that point I was like, you have to do this or you have to go inpatient. Because I didn't, I knew that it was not going to end well um for any of us if we didn't figure out some sort of mechanism to help him.

Matt 28:15

Yeah.

Alicia 28:16

And it was hard because he was he was so unwell, but so good at masking it that most people didn't see it.

Matt 28:26

Yeah.

Alicia 28:27

Um, so then um in May of 2022, we took a trip for our 10-year anniversary with our friends who were celebrating their three-year anniversary. And I know, right? Oh my god, she's one of my best friends in the world. Her name's actually also Alicia.

Matt 28:49

Oh, of course it is.

Alicia 28:50

Yeah, it's amazing. Um, and uh yeah, so we went on this trip. We were gone for a week. My parents had the kids for a week, and we get back at like midnight, one in the morning, Sunday morning, and Monday night the next day, my world fell apart. Um, so the next day he went to behavioral his DBT group, dialectical behavioral therapy group, and he said some stuff during that group that made his therapist call him and say, Hey, if you say this again, I'm gonna do a welfare check. And whoa, he said it again on the phone with her. I was sitting right, I was sitting in the house. She had asked me to leave the room for that phone call. Sure. Um, which was fine.

Matt 29:38

Yeah.

Alicia 29:39

And um, so I left and I guess he doubled down and he said it again. Oh boy. And she called 911. And um, yeah, um, within a couple hours, within an hour, there were more than 40 sheriff officers surrounding my house. And um, he had made it very clear to me at different points leading up to it that if I ever called the police on him, that it was there was one way it was going to end. Um, so we were up in our bedroom, he had gotten off the phone with his therapist and he fell apart and I fell apart. And I said, You need more help, honey. And he was like, Yeah, I do. And we got a phone call, or he got a phone call, and it was the sheriff's department, and they were like, Hey, we're here to talk to you. Oh boy um, and he went sprinting down the stairs to our basement, and I followed, which I should not have done. Um, and I got to the top of the stairs, and I kept calling him on my phone before I went all the way down, and he didn't answer. Well, I continued down the stairs to the first floor and I kicked his phone and I looked out the window or the you know, the panel windows by doors. Um, and I saw the police walking up, and Dan yelled up from the basement, who's up there, declare yourself. And I heard the gun safe open. And um he had probably 10 firearms in our house, um, including an AR-15. And I panicked.

Matt 31:32

Sure.

Alicia 31:32

And I opened the door and I told the sheriffs that they needed to leave, um, that he was really upset that they needed to leave and that it wasn't gonna go okay if they didn't leave. And they didn't leave because that wouldn't be their job.

Matt 31:47

Yeah, yeah.

Alicia 31:48

And they asked me to step out and they grabbed me, and I ended up in the back of a police car terrified. And um what happened next?

Matt 32:00

Sorry, like the no, it's no, no, no, no. The kids, the kids are still with grandparents. No, oh gosh, oh my god, grandparents had left.

Alicia 32:08

Grandparents left Sunday afternoon.

Matt 32:10

Okay.

Alicia 32:10

Um, grandparents had left Sunday afternoon. I had taken the kids to swim class and put them to bed before he got home. And uh they woke up to mommy being gone and daddy yelling.

Matt 32:24

Oh my god.

Alicia 32:26

And what happened next is a blur from because I wasn't in the home. Um, but eventually they got the police got a negotiator out there, and this is all happening in the middle of the night. Like it started at 9:30 at night, and I didn't get my kids back until 2:30 in the morning. Um, now the one thing that Dan did um that was there were two things that Dan did that that night that were wonderful. One of them was that he called one of our best friends, um, Lauren, and he was like, You need to get up there. Now he called her so that he called her from a state of not really talking in a way that you should talk. I don't know how to say it. Um, he was not himself.

Matt 33:14

Understood.

Alicia 33:15

And um, but she was like, Nope, I'm gonna go up there. Um, and she probably it was a 25, 30 minute drive from her house to our house, and she probably broke every single speed limit known to mankind because she got there in like 20 minutes. Um, and the cops let me sit with her, and yeah, she was there, and um he he did negotiations with a trained negotiator who had just done some classes on nonviolent de-escalation, and that was huge. Um, so yeah, eventually the um eventually they negotiate to get the kids sent out of the house. And um, my youngest Hannah was two years old, um, about to turn three. Yeah, and Josephine was five, five, turning six in the in the late summer. Um, so yeah, they were little, they were babies, and you know, they got they they he sent Hannah out still with her pacifier because she was a pacifier addict. Um and that just started a whole mess. And uh he took himself to the hospital the next day. The cops did not go in that night to get him. Um, they said that it was too dangerous, and I I agreed with them. Um, but he took himself to a hospital the next day. Um, the cops were working the process to commit him against as well, if he had enough. But um yeah.

Matt 34:53

I want I want to sorry, no, don't no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is, I mean, I can't I want to go back to real quick when obviously there's a couple other diagnoses or ones coming here, but when you thought it was back in like the I think I wrote down fall of 21, when it it was more feeling like it was we'll just call it blank it, we'll just call it generic depression. That's terrible. When you thought it was depression, like explain like how did that look behind the scenes of hand, like beside behind the Kassetti Massa. Well, what did it look like in the house, and then what did it feel like? Not necessarily in the relationship, but like what did it feel like kind of like in the house, if you will.

Alicia 35:42

Yeah, it felt like we were living in two separate worlds sometimes. Um, it felt like the phrase walking on eggshells, but take it, the eggshells were the planet, you know. Yeah, our washer broke about two months before everything happened. And he confidently told me, Today's the day, today's the day I'm gonna do it. This is what it's gonna look like, this is what you're gonna see. Um which was awful. Um and then it was also like it was there would be moments where the air felt thick. And I I there would be moments where we would be having a conversation and something changed, and his body language changed, and it was it there was actually moments where I asked him, Am I still talking to Dan? Oh wow, um, and he was convinced that there were other people that he was hearing, and I was begging, and I I was begging for him to do something, but he made it clear that if I called, I would be a widow. And if I didn't call, then maybe I could not, maybe I could save him, maybe I could fix it. So I just kept hoping that we would get through it and that there was going to be something that helped bear in mind too that in Michigan, um uh marijuana had become legal. And um he had had some struggles with um, he had had some struggles with marijuana usage and just drugs in general in his 20s, um, and probably well before that. And um, when you take severe, severe depression, um, which with which what we found later was um borderline um or bipolar disorder, bipolar one disorder, and you add in copious amounts of marijuana, it turns into psychosis. Um, and it can actually prompt mania. So what happened in May of 2022 was a manic episode. Um, to as far as we know. Um when he got to the hospital, he cut me off of all the records and would not allow me to talk to the doctors. Um, and would not, he was he was very angry that I opened the door and I left the home. Um, that I let the police take me out of the home.

Matt 38:31

Yeah.

Alicia 38:32

And that's something that I struggle with for guilt. I mean, you were you asked about guilt earlier, and I wish I had left sooner. I wish that I had gotten help, gotten him help sooner. I wish that the kids and I I wish that that someone had said more definitively, you're in danger. Yeah, and he's in danger, because the man that did all of these things was not the man that I fell in love with. I mean, and that's that's the impossible part. And like the fun the crazy thing about all of this is then something would happen and he would something good would happen and he would be himself again. And I would get these glimmers of what I thought life could go back to. And I was like, okay, just keep just keep doing what I'm doing, keep showing up, keep trying to find other options and keep the family together because I didn't know what to do. It was hell, and it was I didn't realize how scared I was until I was out of it.

Matt 39:37

Um, and what ended up it's that classic pressure cooker, right? It's the the classic the frog getting boiled alive, like you don't realize everything that's going on, kind of like a reference a minute ago. Like you look back and you go, it was normal when I was in it, but when you get 10, 100 feet hindsight, well, you're like, that's not normal. None of that was I mean, it's normal in the moment, but it you look back going, that's a lot. That is not just a that's not a Tuesday afternoon, folks. That is a lot happening, so yeah.

Alicia 40:07

And the problem with yeah, and the problem with mental illness too is he didn't see how abnormal it was. In fact, when he got to the hospital, he would say stuff like you have to let it go. You're making mountains out of molehills. You're this is just move forward. He didn't see how he didn't see how fucked up it was. Um, so my friend Alicia that we were in in um the Dominican room with, I called her a couple days later and I said, Dan had a standoff with the police and I don't know what to do. And she was she works, um, she's a CSI type person for a police department. And she dropped everything and she came up. And and my parents, like I the first call that I made once I was in a police car was my parents. And they they turned around and they they came, you know. But um, my friend Alicia, when I finally worked up the courage to call her and tell her what had happened, she told her boss she needed to be off work and she dropped everything and she came. And I'm so grateful for that because I was so in a fog that I don't know how I would have survived otherwise. Like I that whole so yeah, um it was it was such a whirlwind, and unfortunately, you know, our hospital system for mental illness is so broken. Um, you know, he had this huge incident and he was out within eight days. They released him, and um, you know, and I got advice and I was told don't don't let him come home right away. Um, so friends of mine and I like we split hotels and we put him in hotels for two weeks to help the medication kind of kick in. And then during that time started, I we started couples therapy and I tried to get I tried to get a way for him to see the kids. Um, I tried to make opportunities and then it just it never materialized. Um, either someone threw up the night before, or yeah, you know, as kids do, um, or just he didn't want to see them if he wasn't gonna live with them. And that was the mental illness.

Matt 42:37

Yeah.

Alicia 42:37

Um, so yeah, then fast forward a couple more weeks, and the kids and I, when that uh two weeks ended, he was like, I'm coming home. And I sat up all night and I was like, What the hell do I do? Yeah, and my parents were like, Well, he can sleep in the basement and we'll sleep on the middle floor, and you and the kids can sleep in the bedroom with the door locked. I can't do that. So in the middle of the night, I decided, okay, I'm leaving. We're gonna go and we're gonna stay with mom and dad for a little bit. So I packed clothes for four days, thinking we were gonna be gone for four days. We ended up gone for a month. Oh, wow. And um, during that time, things continued to change and progress. And um, I had to get a restraining order. Um, and that was a really, really hard choice because I felt like I betrayed him and I felt like I was waving a flag. Um, but I didn't want to wave because I wanted I wanted him to get better. I wanted um, I wanted my kids to see that it was possible to get better.

Matt 43:47

Sure.

Alicia 43:47

And um that was something that was really hard to do. And um, something that made me realize that I needed it was like you said, the frog in the pot of the boiling water. I called the I Called um the national hotline and um a gun-toting Texas man picked up the phone and I was furious. The last person that I wanted to talk to was a man from Texas or a man in general, sure, but the universe has a weird way.

Matt 44:16

Not taken the universe has a weird way of working itself out, but okay.

Alicia 44:19

And he was like, he was like, I don't know you, but there is no universe as there's no world as a gun carrier that that is okay and that that should have happened. And he gave me so much validation, yeah, that and he was like, Look, I carry my gun everywhere that I'm legally allowed to carry them. And I was like, Okay, good for you, but like this is fucked up, right? And he was like, No, this is totally fucked up, yeah. Um and it clicked.

Matt 44:45

Yep.

Alicia 44:46

So that kind of that kind of started me down a different path.

Matt 44:50

I might be in a boiling pot of water, right?

Alicia 44:52

Yes, I might be in danger. Like the little um kid from Simpsons that's like, I'm in danger again. Uh that that was me.

Matt 45:00

Um so Ralph from The Simpsons, yes.

Alicia 45:02

So yeah, um, I got the restraining order, and then the kids and I and my parents, we made the truck back to Michigan um once he had had a chance to find an apartment. And our friends that had helped me and that had helped me find, you know, a hotel for him, that had helped, you know, find some other like they had kept in touch with him. Um they helped him find an apartment, which and like, you know, they were trying to help him move through that side of things. And I can only imagine, I can only imagine how angry and how sad and how confusing it was for him because I know what it was for me.

Matt 45:43

Yeah.

Alicia 45:44

Um, and you know, I did again, neither one of us wanted that, but the mental illness just had such a grip that I had to put the kids first and I had to make sure that we were safe. Like I've heard you mention in some of your other podcasts, um, put your own oxygen mask on. And I was like, at this moment, I have to put my oxygen mask on and I have to put the kids on. And that's the only way that the three of us are getting through this.

Matt 46:13

Yeah.

Alicia 46:14

So we got back to Michigan, and then it was like, holy shit, now we have to figure out life.

Matt 46:18

Yeah. I think you know, it's the the restraining order. I it you I see it we're using Zoom. Um, I can hear it in your voice, and it's interesting you say like betrayal, where I think that those of us on a well, and you're actually it's the universe is weird how it works. Um you are in a path, and um I use the terms terminal and tragic, right? I use them often of how grief gets introduced in our lives. And what I have discovered from a previous conversation is people who struggle with either addiction or mental illness, uh, those that are impacted by it, those that are left behind, um unfortunately you get both. So it is you start on you're losing them over time, it's terminal, and then unfortunately, um the the journey ends tragically, right? Like at the snap of a finger. And um and so it's a it's a really complex and mishmash of everything going on where you know you're losing the person slowly but slowly over you know due to mental illness, um, or if it was someone that was struggling with addiction, right? Like you just you're losing pieces of them and the version the the authentic them starts to go away and a version of them shows up that isn't the person you you fell in love with and you planned a life with. And so I have a it it really kind of I um I came up with those two things to try to delineate, and now I realized well crap, there's people that walk both lines, so now what do I call that? Hot mess is what I call it. Yes, hot mess exactly. Um and so I it it really it I think it's it's worth mentioning that you know I was using those two to delineate, but uh I think because I haven't um had deep firsthand experience with with mental illness before that I didn't realize that that is a not all, but many can end um unfortunately, and and you do lose the person over time. Yeah, not exactly like losing someone to cancer or something like that. It's a little bit different, but there is there's definitely those micro losses that come along. Yeah I didn't really tragic for my mind was more like not that anyway is good heart attack, car accident, right, you know, etc. Dead before you hit the ground, yeah, type thing, where now I'm like, oh great, the these special people come in with their situation. Now I gotta find a nice pot to put them in. Oh no. Um, but I just think it's worth mentioning that you know, as you are going through all this leading up to um the the spring of of 22 and and the event at the house, like you are losing versions, not versions, you are losing the authentic part of Dan over and over again, you know, through bigger and bigger escalations or deeper, we'll just say depression and then diagnosed with um bipolar. That it's just I mean, and and the real one of the real uh cruxes, and you talked about the betrayal is you still love the version of them that you got to know 100%, even if rational or logically you know that that version is going away, they're still walking around as the person you you look at and you're like, Well, that's still Dan. So it's gotta be difficult. So I just wanted to I wanted to pause and just kind of make you know, make the point of that because it's not like you know, it's not the um, and you're gonna get to it, um it is not the ABC lifetime special moment that's right that is the only loss that happens when someone's dealing with um mental illness um and struggling with that. Um okay, so um oh boy, all right, so and then I also uh the uh the betrayal of the guilt thing, I think that that's uh hopefully you've been able to work out that that's really more of a physical representation of what you what you already knew to be true. And I know it felt like you're giving up or whatever, but I think it's just more of a it's it's kind of like when again, I'm only relating it to mine because that's my journey, but like when someone's like, No, they have cancer, cancer, and you're like, No, but it's the okay kind. They're like, No, it's not. You're like, Oh, I have to acknowledge this is bad. They're like, Yeah, yeah. You're like, but I don't want to, because if I acknowledge it's bad, that means it's bad. They're like, I don't know, that's the reality, right? And it's it sucks. And there is a tinge of guilt in there because you can't, I mean, you hopefully you understand this. Anyone listening understands this that like there love does not cure mental illness, love does not cure cancer. Us, our person leaving this or earth way sooner than any of us wanted to, love would not have done it. And and if it could, oh my god, we fill up every ER room just loving people right back into health, right? So I hopefully, you know, and in the moment I I I mean I can empathize for sure where it's like, well, if we don't if we don't talk about it, it'll be fine. Well, that's um no, unfortunately that only works with some things, um, and not many, actually. So, okay, so here you are.

Alicia 51:26

Yeah, so now I've got two kids who we don't sleep. We've you know, eventually my parents, you know, thankfully they were retired when this happened, you know. My parents were able to retire young, so they were able to, you know, be present for this shit show that my life, you know, publicly kind of unfolded into, with you know, after privately unfolding for a while. Um, and I didn't know I didn't know what to do next. You know, I remember um you know we got back to Michigan and we were sleeping with the lights on and we were all sleeping together, and it was you just keep you just keep finding a way, right? Like I remember the first time that I took the kids to the swimming pool in our subdivision after everything happened, and I was convinced that everyone was looking at me because you know, on the subdivision Facebook group, there was a chat about well, why are there all of these police officers all the time at this house right now? Because the cops came back multiple times after the incident to remove his guns and to get reports and random crap. And I was like, oh my god, I am the I am just the village pariah, and that wasn't the case. Nobody cared.

Matt 52:43

I mean, they cared, but no, no, right. I really hate to break everyone's bubble, but no one on the planet is that important.

Alicia 52:50

Like, right, right, and that was the funny thing.

Matt 52:53

I know the social media makes us think so and so insert famous person is that important and so and so, but you know what's so funny is like we when we feel that way, and then it just takes some random stranger to look at you and be like, what are you talking about? You're like, you didn't know everything that they're like, no, yeah, I had no idea. You're like, Oh, right.

Alicia 53:10

Also, like get out of the way at the grocery store. Right, you don't care that you're having a meltdown over periods, like it doesn't matter.

Matt 53:18

No, they're like, You're not that important, lady.

Alicia 53:20

Move, right? So it was it was very like, no, completely. It was very like, oh shit, like nobody else is going to save us.

Matt 53:30

Oh, so the phrase I love is no one is coming.

Alicia 53:33

Yeah, no one's coming. So, you know, I you know, at some point my parents left and I just figured it out. And I was lucky in that my girls were in um a childcare program on the on the installation that I work at, and they were amazing and they worked with me and they, you know, they found ways to help that I didn't know that I needed, and that's actually something that will keep coming up.

Matt 54:02

Yeah.

Alicia 54:03

Um, so you know, I figured it out. And, you know, I had friends who, you know, my friend group is all over the place, but I had people that would send us dinner um and they'd door dash or they'd, you know, say, okay, um, here's 50 bucks, go get a babysitter or whatever, you know, because I I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating. Like you go into this mo of this like total freeze and flop response where it's like, oh shit. So eventually we kind of started to get through that. And then the fall started, and by that point, Dan had filed for divorce. Um, and there had been some preliminary hearings. Um, and during that next two years, um, we went from married and separated to with him having no visitation, no contact with the kids to working through a supervised visit schedule. And then, you know, it eventually continued to a point where he got unsupervised time, which, you know, took time. And I got advice from people who not everyone who gives advice gives the right advice. Um, I learned the hard way. And um, I definitely threw a bunch of money to a couple lawyers who could have been more aggressive um in advice. And the blessing of all of that is that we all ended up okay. But, you know, it was not an easy path to walk.

Matt 55:38

Yeah.

Alicia 55:39

Um, but yeah, so we um I had my restraining order against him for it ended up being two years that I had the restraining order, and it ended about a month before he passed away. Um, is when my restraining order ended. You know, and and it's interesting because like you figure out how to swim in whatever fucked up stream you're in.

Matt 56:04

Yeah.

Alicia 56:04

Um, so I figured, you know, I found a before care program that was able to take my kid from like that, was able to feed my oldest breakfast and drive her to school, drop her off at her school, pick her up. I'd drop her off at 6:30 in the morning, I'd pick her up at five at night, and it was a long ass day for everybody. And my youngest was still on the military base with me. So like she just came with and she was just along for the ride. Um, and my bosses were willing to work with me as much as they were legally able to in terms of like giving me some flexibility, but then you know, then it became okay, we got to get people back in the office more than you know, one day a week. And then it's like, oh fuck. Um, and that got even more complicated. Um, but yeah, I just kind of kept pressing forward. And um if I if I fast forward a bit, it's that you know, in May of 2024, um, I put a final offer on a house um that I'm sitting in now. Um, and we close um I closed and the kids and I moved in in June. And then um a month later he was gone. Um yeah.

Matt 57:20

So um okay, so sorry, no, don't no no no no no. This you've got this is a lot, a lot. Um what uh man, what was um let's let's yeah, what was what was Dan's visitation dad moments like?

Alicia 57:41

So it was tricky. Um at first he could only see them in a supervised center. Um, and because he didn't think he'd get them, I guess he didn't have stuff for them. So he'd show up to the center and there were, you know, there was a broken play set in the corner or like a broken like kitchen thing in the corner. And like, so I would bring stuff that I would send in backpacks with the girls. They'd go in for their hour, I'd sit in the hallway shaking like a leaf.

Matt 58:13

Sure.

Alicia 58:14

And I ended up making a friend there, and we kind of passed the time together, which was good, but you see, I had this humbling moment at the time of like, I have a master's degree, I I know how these things are supposed to work in life, right? Yeah, and I'm sitting in a hallway so that my kids can see their dad for an hour, and I just realized how naive I was because I didn't realize how easily it could be to step into a different situation.

Matt 58:46

Sure.

Alicia 58:47

And it was very humbling, and I I learned so much from that, yeah. And then um, after a period of God, after a couple months or seven, well, not a couple, after probably six to eight months, he got unsupervised time, which was terrifying, but we worked through it, and then he started getting um overnights, and the most time that he ever had was every other weekend and then a Thursday night dinner. Um, but because of um because of my continued anxiety, because of everything that had happened, because of the fear, um, we did our exchanges at a domestic violence shelter in the parking lot because it was always there was because he would not do a police station. Generally, when there's high conflict, you either do a grocery store, a police station, or a DV shelter. Those are pretty much your three options. And he wouldn't do um the police station because of his incidences with the police. And um, I was worried about sending a three and uh Hannah was three or four at the time and sending her in a parking lot to walk by herself. So, or with her sister. I was like, I'm not gonna do that.

Matt 1:00:05

Yeah.

Alicia 1:00:06

So we agreed on the shelter via the lawyers, and um, I would park facing the building and in a in as much of a corner area as I could get into so that he couldn't, you know, there was there was protection, in my opinion. Um, and he would park behind me. And the reason that that's relevant is that was the pattern every single visit, except the last one. And the last visit, well, and then also he would not release the kids out of his car until you know the exchange time ended at his parenting time ended at six o'clock, let's say. He would wait until 10 to 20 seconds into six o'clock before he would open the door to let them out of the car. So on their last visit, um, I got there a couple minutes early. He let them out of the car at 5 55. And I remember thinking, this is weird. And he pulled out of the parking lot before they got to my minivan. And I was like, This is even weirder. Um, and the kids got in the car and they said, Mom, we think daddy's gonna hurt himself.

Matt 1:01:24

Oh, good crazy, yeah.

Alicia 1:01:28

So um he had told them that if anything bad ever happened that they needed to remember. But he always loved them. And I knew I knew that that was it. Um, so I got out of the car and I called my lawyer and I said, What the hell do I do? And she was like, You can't you can't call it in because it's coming from kids. And if he's not going to do something, then they're going to say that you're harassing him and that you're sending police to the house to try to aggravate him. So I waited.

Matt 1:02:11

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Alicia 1:02:12

Um, and the next day um I got a call from the sheriff saying that they were looking for him and when had I seen him last. And um, I said, Well, he dropped the kids off last night. And they were like, Well, he didn't show up to an appointment. And then we began Week from Hell, where he was um Schrdinger's ex-husband. And um, it took and from so it took from Sunday until Friday before the cops were willing to break the door down because of what he had done before. Um and they did what they could, you know, there had been a police officer get killed earlier that year and they were very concerned um for good reason.

Matt 1:02:54

Sure.

Alicia 1:02:55

Um and they didn't want to enter a situation where someone else could get hurt. Um, so they, you know, marked his tires and put rocks on his car. And when multiple car calls came through and the the the rocks on the tires never moved, yeah, yeah, they eventually broke the door down. And that's uh um at the time, um, by that point, you know, the night before I had called his parents and I had said, you know, hey, this is what's going on. Um, his car's still in the parking lot, nobody knows, but you guys need to be aware. Um, and like he that his parents and I had had reformed a relationship over those, you know, two years where they would come see the kids and stuff. So like they had actually just been up the weekend prior or like 10 days prior for Hannah's uh for Hannah's birthday party. So um that weekend, a guy that I was seeing at the time, um, I was going to go down to the to my hometown. And my parents were like, you should bring this guy. You should have somebody in the car with you. And I was like, no, like it's fine. But I did. I followed their advice, always listen to mom and dad. And um uh we got to Indiana. We got about halfway through Indiana, and um, I had well, at some point in that morning while we were driving, um, while he was driving, I got a phone, I got a text message from the girl who used to cut Dan's hair. And she and I had kind of fallen out of contact during the divorce because she took his side, you know. It happens, it happens, it was what it was, and I wasn't gonna fight him over over over this girl.

Matt 1:04:41

Sure.

Alicia 1:04:41

Um, so she called me and I was and she was like, he missed his appointment and I can't get in touch with him. And the messages are bouncing now, like they weren't getting delivered.

Matt 1:04:52

Right, right.

Alicia 1:04:53

What do I do? And I said, I need you to call the sheriff and I need you to tell the sheriff's office. So she did. Um, and that was the call that made them break the door down. Um, so we keep driving because what else do you do?

Matt 1:05:07

Yeah, yeah.

Alicia 1:05:07

And I get a call from the sheriff and I motioned to um my boyfriend at the time to pull off. And um I stood in a parking lot in Indiana and they couldn't tell me officially, but they told me unofficially. And they were like, We can't tell you, but he did it himself. Um, and I said, Do you need me to come identify his body? And they said, No. So we turned around and the kids said, Why are we turning around?

Matt 1:05:38

Yeah.

Alicia 1:05:39

And oh, it's it's important to note. I'm sorry, I missed something. It is important to note that they knew they knew that something was wrong because they missed their Thursday night visit. And I had taken them to their therapist's office on Wednesday and said, Dad, because of what daddy said to you on Sunday. We need to get we're not going until we know daddy's okay. Um, it's not, things are a little weird right now, and we just gotta figure it out. So they knew that they didn't get to see him that week. Um, so we're driving back, and my one of my other amazing friends um is a therapist out east. And she earlier in the week had said, I'm gonna put together a list of resources. You tell me when you need them. So I texted her while we were driving, while my boyfriend at the time was driving, and I said, I need those resources. So uh reading all these things on how to tell kids that their parent has passed.

Matt 1:06:39

Yep.

Alicia 1:06:39

Um, and I texted their the girl's therapist, and she came in on a day off, and we got back to Michigan, dropped the boyfriend off and went to the therapist's office, got a happy meal on the way because I was like, Well, I'm gonna throw up. And you're probably going to feel the same way in a couple minutes. So I got them a happy meal and made sure they ate it before we go into the office. And we go into the office and I sat them down on the couch, and I remember so clearly their therapist sitting on a little chair behind me, the kids on the couch, and I'm sitting on the floor, like kneeling in front of them. And I grabbed both of their hands and I said, guys, I have to tell you that daddy died by suicide. And suicide means that somebody makes their heart stop beating, and daddy is daddy is no longer alive, and my oldest fell apart completely, and my youngest just kind of sat there for a minute and um eventually started crying. Um but then in the way that kids grieve, a couple minutes later, we're sitting on the floor and they're playing with something, some toy that the therapist had. And Hannah, my youngest, knocks over my purse and money goes flying all over coins or whatever, and she starts pulling the coins together. I said, Honey, what are you doing? And she said, I'm getting the coins together to get medicine to make daddy better. And that just shattered me into like that, shattered me. So then it's like, okay, we finish the appointment and we leave. And it's like, what the hell do you do? Right? Like, then it's the question. Now now we're officially in the after.

Matt 1:08:43

Yeah.

Alicia 1:08:44

And um then it's a whole new ball game of trying to figure out how to move forward again, um, in a different way. So, you know, we go home and I think I think we sat on my bed until everyone fell asleep, and we just all slept in like this giant pile. Um and the next day the girls were like, Well, we want to still go to we want to still go to our friend's birthday party. And I'm like, Okay.

Matt 1:09:12

So we'll pause for a minute. So I'm sure you've learned so ages and stages of how kids grieve. Yes. Um, I've heard it say that and I'm just gonna pick the age so no one come after me, but uh right about five to seven-ish, they puddle jump. They literally be super sad, super happy. And as adults, we go like, what in the what? Like this, there's no, and it's and it's a jump. It's not like uh, okay, I had a good cry and I'm gonna be mellow for a minute and then I'm gonna go right. Yeah, um, yeah, it's it's a it's it's it's definitely healthy and normal for them to do that. Um for us adults, it feels very odd. But I want to also say kudos for you for taking enough emotional fortitude to find the proper words to tell your kids what happened that is insanely difficult, and yet you did it in a very beautiful, authentic, and real way for their age. Because um, anybody that's listening, like it's a slippery slope, and I'm not like I'm not here to tell people whether their religion is good or bad or whatever, but I have lost count the number of small children who want to go into the clouds to see mommy and daddy. I've lost count the number of times that why can't we buy a ticket to go to heaven? This is little kids, and I just think that it's easier, it's podcast, so you can't see me, but I'm tapping myself. It's easier for us adults to use these phrases because it's easier for us. Unfortunately, there's an age, and I I think it's under a 10-ish. It's black or white. There's only we use passed away and lost because it's simpler, but and I try not to because dead is dead. It is it is a matter, everything on this planet that is lived is dying, or it will die. Okay there is no other word for dead is dead. And when we get into this gray area, especially with kids, it's confusing for them. But the word dead hurts so bad, and I understand. Like my my I the only heartbreak I had to deliver was to my my older child and to let her know that that her stepmom, my wife, Marcy, had passed away. My little was 13 months. We had our own moments, that's my own story. But what I can tell you is I can tell you exactly what my younger brother's face looked like when my mom told him and me when I was 11 he just turned six and our dad had died of a heart attack. I can I if you get me a sketch artist, I can draw his face. And I only I was in the room when that happened, I didn't have to deliver the message, but I've said it before on the podcast that the as a parent, our job is if you're a healthy parent, is to try not to hurt our kids. But unfortunately, when we get introduced into solo parenting, there's a high probability we're gonna have to say a phrase that's going to absolutely shatter our children's lives. And we know as adults completely change everything that they they know. So, but good, I mean amazing. I know it is it's it was a long path to to you know, you had some time to ask for resources, people knew. So but I mean, I mean we all have Google now, but I mean that that takes a lot because you could have you could have just fired from the hip and you could have worked or could have not. You could have just told them in the you could have done what I did is tell my child we're moving on the side of the highway of Indiana. Um she's gonna need therapy anyway, don't worry about it. Um at least yeah, I mean, at least you did it in in a very thoughtful, authentic, I don't want to say controlled, but a very a very well well thought out environment. So that that's kudos to you for tuning in. Thank you. Um so um off to a birthday party, you go.

Alicia 1:12:59

Yeah, so then we go.

Matt 1:13:01

This is how this is this is it. I mean, this is yeah, this is it. Welcome to solo parenting.

Alicia 1:13:06

Oh my god. So then, so okay, I hadn't even told them that their dad was gone, was dead 12 hours prior. And we're walking through Target, yep, and they're like, Oh, well, this is cool. I bought every fucking thing they touched.

Matt 1:13:21

It's called it's a clinical thing called retail therapy, yeah.

Alicia 1:13:25

Um, everything I have no idea where most of it is now. We haven't even moved again, but I just everything that they touched, we bought.

Matt 1:13:32

We're just good.

Alicia 1:13:33

And like I remember the lady looking at me and being like, Wow, you're on a shopping spray. And I just was like, You have no idea, and like me telling you, Well, their dad is dead, it's not gonna change anything.

Matt 1:13:44

Well, right, but I mean, sometimes you know, early on, I say in the first two years, you shock and awe, go full score. Oh, oh, I mean, I there were times when I like uh the poor lady at the checkout counter at the local grocery store, like two days after that poor lady. I mean, I'm in there just tears under my sunglasses, and she's like, and I'm like, my wife died, and I need like toast for the baby. And she's just like, beep, I get that. I was like, Well, what am I supposed to do? As Ed Shear is playing a song in the background.

Alicia 1:14:16

Oh, I got I got a discount on a tire because of sad widow points.

Matt 1:14:21

Nice.

Alicia 1:14:22

Um, so my friend right, so okay, so you know, we find out that he's yeah, birthday party.

Matt 1:14:29

So he's gone.

Alicia 1:14:30

We go to the birthday party. While I'm at the birthday party, my brother-in-law calls and tells me, you know, he and I talk, and he's like, Okay, do you want to know method? And I'm like, Yes, I do, which I'm not disclosing. But like he told me, so that gave me some peace because then it it stopped the question, yeah, you know. Um, so you know, the kids are off and I'm hearing all of these things, and it's like, okay, this is it. I've got to figure out the next step. So then, you know, my parents are gonna come up the next day or something, and it's time to start figuring out funeral. It's time to start figuring out all of that stuff. So I worked with his parents and we decided to do um, Dan was cremated up in Michigan, um, where we, you know, where we both lived. And um, you know, I hosted a funeral in Michigan, and then his parents hosted a funeral in Illinois a couple weeks later. Um, but I was like, you know, Dan's wishes had been when he was healthy, or like Dan's wishes when he was healthier um was that he did not want to be buried and he did not want to go, you know, be buried in Illinois. Um, so I was like, nope, I was adamant. I was like, he needs to be here. I don't know what I'm gonna do with him, but he needs to be here.

Matt 1:15:51

Yeah.

Alicia 1:15:52

So I hosted a funeral in Michigan, you know, did that, and I had people, you know, who who did what they could to help. Um, but you know, my parents came up, my brother came up and his family, and then my friend Rachel flew in from DC. And um, she told her kids, she said, Aunt Alicia needs me. Um, and Josie and Hannah need me. So I'm going, and her kids are amazing, and they just went with it. And we're driving. The girls and I are my my kids and I are driving to the airport to pick Rachel up, and my flat tire thing starts going off.

Matt 1:16:24

Oh no.

Alicia 1:16:25

And at this point, my minivan, you know, my divorce was extremely expensive. My minivan has 140,000 miles on it. Like, I all of these things. So I'm like, oh dear god.

Matt 1:16:35

All the things.

Alicia 1:16:36

So I stop and I put air in the tire and we keep going, and then it's flat again. And I'm like, motherfucker. So pull through the airport, pick my friend up, and the tire has nothing in it. Go to another gas station and it doesn't have a working pump. Great. So she's calling the nearest tire shop. We're in the an area that I'm not super familiar with, and we just keep stopping at every every gas station that has a pump to keep adding, um, to keep adding air to this type. Exactly. And then we we finally get to the fucking shop. And the guy's like, Well, you need a tire. I'm like, Okay. And he's like, Well, really, you need four. And I'm like, My I was like, No, I need one. I need to get home. My kid's dad is dead. I've haven't slept in like all week. Like, and his funeral is in two days. And the guy just looked at me and just it, he was like, Um, I can get you a discount on that tire. I can get it to you for like, I don't know, 80 bucks. I don't, I have no idea. Yeah, here's the credit card. I don't care.

Matt 1:17:48

Right.

Alicia 1:17:49

Um, so I got my first, you know, sad widow discount. And it was it was what I needed to get through it. And then and then we just kept moving. And like, you know, what was crazy was I'm still sending my kids to summer camp. Yeah, you know, two days after telling them their dad's dead. Um, because it was the only thing that they knew.

Matt 1:18:10

Yeah.

Alicia 1:18:10

And God blessed the staff because they were amazing. And they I told them I was like, look, this is the situation. I don't know what else to do. And they were like, We've got them, you get you.

Matt 1:18:22

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. And it was amazing.

Alicia 1:18:26

And um, you know, the girls, the girls knew the program, they knew the director, they'd been there since they were infants. So it was, it was home. It's it's our home. And honestly, that is part of the reason why I haven't considered a career change or moved, because that is one of the touchstones of stability for them over four years of insanity.

Matt 1:18:47

Yeah.

Alicia 1:18:47

Like, so anyway, um, you know, we I hosted the funeral, um, and like it was um, it was fine, but it was a mess. And then you get into, well, what are you gonna do with the picture of daddy afterwards? And you've got this giant, you know, and it was a good picture, yeah, but it was a two, it was two years outdated. Yeah, because he wouldn't, he in his mental illness, he wouldn't let people take pictures of him with the kids. So, like the last pictures that the kids have are from two years prior. And that was what I used for his obituary, and then it's writing an obituary. How do you write an obituary for your ex-husband who you still love, but it's confusing. And it's oh my god, I used Chat GPT, and at one point I just kept beating at more prompts. And I was like, okay, he's dead, but tell me more. And like finally, finally, I got it down to Dan was a man and now he is dead. And I'm like, okay, this is funny, but I can't put it in.

Matt 1:19:53

Um the most but it was therapeutic, the most succinct and thorough and short yes, obituary of all time.

Alicia 1:20:01

No, and I I it it was just like I was just screwing with it because oh yeah, I needed some comic to comic relief.

Matt 1:20:09

This goes to like when I so my wife had two celebrations, like one in Illinois, one in Ohio, and my best friend flew out, so I had my probably I think she may have been 15 months at the time, not even 15 months. She's in the car seat, my best friend's in the passenger seat, and well, excuse me, in the back passenger seat, and uh her urn is in the passenger seat. I'm like, here's something I'll teach you about in life class. Like, what the f and I was like, Am I allowed to transport her across state lines? Like, I I mean all these anyway. Yeah, no one teaches you. There is well, there probably is a very specific book that says, Here's how to write an obituary for your ex.

Alicia 1:20:43

I I actually cobbled it together and it worked. It worked well.

Matt 1:20:47

There's probably three one is snarky, one is through love, and one's like comedic. Like, there's probably like just bitter and just yeah, and then there's you know, one that's authentic and then one that's probably funny, but yeah, and and you know, it was it was confusing too, because it's like, okay, like how do you mention yourself?

Alicia 1:21:02

Because it's like he wouldn't have been my ex-husband if he hadn't been mentally ill. Sure. Like, you know what I mean? So I was just like, I just I mentioned myself. I was like, he's survived by his children and his former wife, and then his parents and all of the other, you know, whatever. But yeah, and it was the it felt the most right, but you know, you just do what feels the most right. And like I actually I ended up accidentally hurting a friend with my Facebook post that I made announcing his death, because I put that he died by suicide, and she was really hurt by that. And she was like, Alicia, he was so private, and it took us, we we got through it. But I said, I said, Lauren, he was private, but when he made that choice and when his life ended, he lost control of the story. And if me saying it flat out that he died by suicide, if that stops somebody else from doing it, yeah, then it'll have been worth it. And that's what Dan would have wanted. He would have wanted to help somebody else.

Matt 1:22:02

I always find it interesting five years into this well, this rodeo of grief, is that when things are left unsaid, there are quite literally two assumptions. So, right, if it's not, if they don't mention, you know, peacefully and you do the math, you're like, well, they're a 92. Okay. But if it's like if it's not mentioned, it's it's it's either death by suicide or addiction. Exactly. I respect like what your friend was saying, I understand that, but I also go, but if we share it, the power is in you're depowering this the the disease, the addiction and the mental health. And then if sharing it helps one person go, well crap, if yeah, my my friend of a friend or so-and-so kid, like maybe I really need to think long and hard about what I am currently doing to address my situation. Um, yeah, it's hard, but I mean, listen, you could the problem is you could have left that out, and then there would have been people that would be like, Why didn't you mention it?

Alicia 1:23:05

So it's yeah, but it is what it was, and I did what felt right at the time, and that was that kind of has been my touchstone since. Um, and you know, it's it's interesting because it's like the the I I dabbled a little bit with trying to find widowy support, and none of it fit because it was so atypical. Like I was divorced and I was under, you know, 60. And you know, um, so I just was like, okay, I just have to keep going and do the next and like my kids at at one point were super into Elsa and Anna and like the whole like do the next right thing, right? Like I was just like, I just have to keep doing what seems the least the most right or the least wrong at the time and hope that it all washes out.

Matt 1:23:54

Yeah.

Alicia 1:23:55

Um, so yeah, like we did the ceremony, the sir, the service up here, and then everybody kind of like dispersed, and then it's like, okay, I've got kids that have now my oldest has lost her dad. She's seven. He passed in between both my girls' uh birthdays. So Hannah's birthday, you know, she just turned five, Josephine was about to turn eight. And, you know, there's no long-term thing on how to help kids through grief, other than just keep showing up. So we were, I was like, okay, we're gonna just keep doing, we're gonna keep doing therapy, we're gonna keep doing psychiatry, all of that stuff. Um, and I really like made sure that I was taking care of myself in the sense of like, I told my therapist, I was like, because I had been seeing um a therapist for just trauma recovery for EMDR, and then just you know, she was like a coach at one point. And I was like, I feel really, really sad. And she looked at me and she was like, Of course you're depressed, why wouldn't you be? And I was like, Well, it's complicated. And she's like, Alicia, yeah, you were married for 10 years, you were together for 13, you're depressed. And like it was something where I was really unsure about getting, you know, additional medication support, but it was it was a game changer.

Matt 1:25:16

Yeah.

Alicia 1:25:17

Um, and like it's something that like I really have tried to like push forward to like friends and family is just it's okay to get help. It's okay to take the pills, it's okay, you know what I mean, like the prescribed pills. Um so yeah, we just kind of kept moving. And um, it was so like, you know, then it was Josephine's birthday, and it's like, oh shit, how do you do a birthday party for a kid who lost their dad a month ago? So we did the best that I, you know, I did the best that I could, and it was, you know, it was fucked up at times. Like there were big tears and then there were big happy moments, but we made it. And then they started school at this new school where we didn't know, like we didn't have this a community because we had just transferred right um when I bought my house. So then it's like, okay, now not only are they the new kids, they're the new sad kids. Um, which thankfully kids don't look at it that black and white, but that was my worry.

Matt 1:26:15

Understood.

Alicia 1:26:16

The the emails that the teachers got introducing my kids from me, I'm sure they were like, oh good lord, someone get this woman like a Xanax. Because I was like, this is the situation, and these are the triggers, and their dad is dead, and um, yeah, so good luck.

Matt 1:26:33

You know, it's it I think sometimes so I I forget that there are professionals walking amongst us in every field that have had these situations arise, and so when we moved to where I am now, I was like, Well, no one ever knew my wife existed here, you know, they never met her. Yeah, but and so I just sent an email to the principal going, like, this is us. If you want, here's my wife's YouTube video of her. Here's you know, follow me on Facebook, Instagram, you'll see this is what we do. It's been a few years at this point, yeah. And they are just like, Yeah, we have a school counselor, and uh oh, by the way, uh, there's another dad over here. His wife passed away like two two months ago before you got here. You two should be in contact, and then it's just been everyone's known knows me as this is what I do. Yeah and so I think like we like listen, all of our kids, as much as we love them, are weird little people. Oh yeah. Whether whether they're they're in the they're in the dead parent club or they're the I still eat pace club, or they're the ones that spin in circles, or whatever, like whatever. I'm just all what are we like? What is I shouldn't say what blade is weird? That won't be nice. Um, but so so I think that yes, again, we go back to almost the grief thing where us adults, we project our like I don't want them to feel you know ostracized. Well, they're they are because they're they're gonna be in little groups. Grief is into completely not part of what most sex. year olds are rolling up in the school yard they're more like oh you have the same elsa shoes that i have we're best friends forever now exactly oh your your dad's not alive or we can't be friends like that is so not i do what i do find interesting is like if it sounds like you have just the frankness that the kids can just drop it sometimes where they're like well my mom's well blair right my mom's dead and the kids are like oh i'm sorry yeah okay you want to go play they're like okay i'm like well that was yeah way easier than when i do it an adult like sits down get a cup of coffee so tell me more they're just yeah oh god yeah so Hannah is in first grade now um you know year and a half past his passing and she tells me one day just casually she's like oh yeah I'm going I got invited to sew and so's birthday party and he was like asking why my dad can't come and she was like well my daddy's dead and he was like oh well you could just say he's on a work trip and I'm just like even the kid is okay sure and I was just I was and she just rolled with it but it was just I mean so odd that's where I'd love to go talk to the parents and be like so how many work trips are the grandparents on it's a permanent one all the grandparents are always anyway oh my god oh my god so bad so many work trips um it's yeah it's like you when your dog goes to the farm right uh it's a little like and like so like what was so let me digress real quick so like right before school started I I'm sure you did this or still do it you know you're you're in your thoughts at three in the morning and you can't sleep and you're just like okay I there's a problem that I need to solve and I just started I'd been looking for resources um for the kids and I stumbled onto comfort zone camp and um comfort zone camp is a free camp for kids who have lost um a parent a friend a sibling whoever that was close to them and it just so happened that they were doing their first ever session in Michigan oh wow um for suicide loss.

Alicia 1:30:02

Wow and um you had to be seven to go and Josine was seven turning eight. So I applied at three in the morning and they called me a couple days later and they were like okay tell me the situation and I was like here it is and they got it and it was amazing. And she went for her first session um it's a two night camp and she went in September and up until then she was not telling anyone that she had lost her dad by suicide. She just was the quiet new kid which was which was fine. I wasn't like you know I wasn't like here's a t-shirt to explain your life story. But when she came back she was starting she started being able to talk about it. Good and it was amazing. And um yeah that camp it's it's been and like what was awesome too for me was when I went to pick her up they do a parent debrief and then the kids do a closing service and like oh my God I cried harder than than I did at the funeral probably um and like it was just everyone was warm and was like this is this is just the shitty club that we're all in.

Matt 1:31:14

Well this this goes this touches on the like I was never in the military so I've never been in a foxhole but I've watched my younger brother meet someone went to the same boot camp he did 16 years before and had food at the same base that he was stationed out of. And it's like there's this weird like kindred spirit right yeah and there's something about like just this why this is why partly why the podcast exists partly why the groups exist is like listen I don't want anyone to be in these groups for 12 straight years stuck in their grief. But if they come in and out and they're like well I did this and this is working and oh I'm I'm on to something else and that's fine. I just think that being around people from you don't have to make it your only club you're a part of but being around people who get it from time to time is super important. So for instance um there are widowers that I am in contact with frequently enough that they will they will tell me something they're like you're the only person I can tell because I'm so terrified that any podcast air quotes normal person I'm using air quotes isn't gonna get it. And I was like yeah man but yeah you yeah this all everything you're saying like kind of like if there is no there are very unhealthy ways to grieve then there's this gray area and then there are some healthier ways to grieve but as long as you're not hurting yourself and others um hey guess what it's all on board and they're like wow and I think that when you're around a camp like that and I wrote it down we'll definitely share a link for those that um want to look at that there's another one here in Colorado that someone just sent me um this it's the sleep away camp that gets me I'm not so sure how I feel about that like it was scary it was scary but like oh my god it was amazing it was so good for her I I think it's I'm talking I'm projecting my own anxiety like I think my kid will be fine but again just imagine as adults that when we're in a group we're in a room of people who get it as best they can just imagine as a kid being around people that not only get it but then support it right that you can right like school supports it but they don't get it right and then you have then you have like you have another like then you have other people who may get it but they're not really in when I see support like they're taught on how to do things. Yeah so like I I've shared before I vaguely remember meeting my first grown adult um and at the time the dude was really old I mean he was probably in his 40s I was like 16 or 17 and I said something about how we wound up where we were living and he goes oh my dad died when I was about 11 as well and I was like yes you you have a wife and kids and a job you made it out like you're normal tell me your secret and he's like uh I woke up and then I was 40 one day I was like and here I am now doing this I'm like oh my god um so I like what about the younger um definitely again definitely different processing emotions different processing so different human so that she's just gonna be different so she's a force of nature um that child is either going to be um the first female president or the leader of a drug cartel those are the only two options careers both ways very different benefits but exactly um no so she has she has extremely different memories so my older daughter remembers the before and she remembers kind of the lead up to what was happening even though I thought I shielded her a lot better than I did.

Alicia 1:34:39

Um my younger daughter doesn't um so she has no memory of she remembers our old house because we were in there for about a year after the after you know the incident yeah before the kids and I moved. So she remembers the old house but she doesn't remember us together. She doesn't remember you know that type of stuff and that's hard. And unfortunately he didn't connect with her um as well as he did our older daughter um partially I think by because of the the less time and just because that child if she doesn't if she doesn't want to connect with you she's not going to um not that yeah not that it's a fault in any way but I if she was a little harder for people to warm up to so then when he was out of her life for six months straight that made things difficult and she loves her daddy very much um but she has a very different memory. Yeah and like the kids you know both of the kids will just sometimes drop something on me that I had no idea of um so back to Josephine she when she went to this camp she got interviewed and I found out from the newspaper that he was afraid to go outside um you know in the weeks leading up to his death um and I he they would tell me like oh well daddy let us go outside and play on the field behind his apartment or whatever and I just thought well they're kids being kids I did not know that he was afraid to go um wow so like kids just don't always tell you everything and that so anyway they have different experiences um just by nature of their age and their memories but also just like for Hannah it's always been me pretty much as the primary parent since she was you know a toddler. Whereas Josephine remembers getting the tag team and having one-on-one time with dad. So that's it's just different. She's she does better she's a little bit more protected by her youth. Yeah you know it's it's still there but it's different.

Matt 1:37:02

There's there's a great quote that's uh I can't remember who said it but it's um basically I'm sorry it's like regardless of the situation no two kids grow up in the same household or with the same parents. So I had this epiphany. So I leave my house as a young adult fast forward seven years later my younger brother sitting at my dining room table here and just spin a minute and my mom and him were talking about something they used to do and I was like wait you guys did you you did mom dinners on Wednesday nights at this diner restaurant wait you had a life when I wasn't in that like is this whole appeal I was like what other things were you doing and they're like you were in college and I was like oh my god like there was a life happening so even regardless of the situation yes highly traumatic or not no completely normal if you're the first and only kid there's a stretch where you get all of it and if you're the baby of the family there's a stretch where everyone's left the house and you're getting all of it. If you're the middle kid at some point you are the middle and then the older one leaves and now you're the old and so it's never and it's it it's so weird as adults to then recognize like oh my gosh regardless of the situation our experiences in the same house are very just by the nature of the order of the kids and the relationship and you know whatever like I asked my older one what's the biggest difference she's like oh my sister has way more toys than I have I said well I was young and broke so like you're lucky you got McDonald's kid so let's just so I right and it's it just is and so I think that just not to say that grief doesn't play a role in how the kids experiences are different.

Alicia 1:38:45

Um I think so let's let's real quick yeah totally you mentioned count I'm not even gonna comfort zone camp thank you yeah um any um any other like when you said the resources there is there any you had littles was there any books that helped you was there books are books can be crap sometimes unfortunately they're so well intended but they fall so flat sometimes yeah um and maybe this is me being a little bit of a cynic but like I remember we were given like the invisible string yep and that's one that comes up yeah that one I'm not a fan of um because and part of it is just part of it is because of the nature of suicide right yes there there was and as much as there's mental illness there was also some layer of choice right or perceived choice.

Matt 1:39:40

Sure.

Alicia 1:39:41

And again I'm not ragging on Dan um sure um I know I hope it doesn't sound like that but anyway um there's that layer of like well why did they choose so like some of those books they're they're geared more towards cancer or they're geared towards grandparents is another one which is yeah there's one you call like a bad thing happened.

Matt 1:40:02

It's more some of those are really they're really good at like bridging the conversation especially since you had such a great initial announcement um what about and that's okay like I I I always just ask I love camp camper. What as far as like the therapy that they went through oh boy yeah um so um I did EMDR um and that was huge for me. Say the long name um oh crap my therapist would kill me um all I know is it has to do with the red I I and I mess it up all the time. People are like it's not a festival in Vegas I'm like E DM E D R M. I don't know. So I will put a link to describe it totally fine. I've heard nothing but good things and for those that are listening anytime there is specifically it can work for a lot of things but very visual or physical trauma involved in anything but we're talking about grief and loss it is really good at rewiring your brain.

Alicia 1:41:00

Yes because basically any type of trauma breaks the connection in your brain correct um and it's it's a brain injury which is something that I did not realize for a long time um and what that does is it kind of teaches the brain to heal that um the kids do CBT um so cognitive behavioral therapy and um play therapy. We did a stint of art therapy for a minute for Josephine and it helps um you know it's it's tricky because it's like kids also have attention span issues you know in the sense of like the an adult goes into a therapist office and has like a full out conversation about it, the kids might a lot of times the kids will um uh the kids will just um play and they'll something will come up while they're playing so that's it's different.

Matt 1:41:54

Yeah. Um I also think what's really important at any stage and I've said this multiple times and I'm repeating myself but I don't mind um is that as parents one of the things with when it comes to therapy is it shouldn't be it should be like a walking boot, something you're going to get out of right at some point. And I think really it's more for us as parents to go like listen because I've I've shared before where like I'll call a therapist and I'm like listen this is not going well and we'll have family session and the therapist like everything's fine and I'm like it can't be I'm in charge. There's no way everything's okay. There should be another adult in charge and I shouldn't be the one right and so I think more importantly whether or not they're actually doing the therapy whether it's at 510 or 15 that they know there's an avenue that if they get a big thing whether it's dad related or not that they know there's this place they can go that's in addition to their mom or dad that they can go talk they can go either sometimes talk, write act out whatever for therapy and I think that it's more about because listen some there's a there's a thing um well first I want to say before I went away from it I remember uh from some of the courses I've taken and stuff all trauma has grief not all trauma has not all grief has trauma so no matter the trauma you've had in your life there's a grief component to it whether it's a loss of your physical safety whether it's a lot that all trauma will have grief in it. Not all grief has trauma right so um so but when there is trauma there's going to be a level of grief involved for sure yeah so but um but the other part is like leaning the kids to say hey this is an avenue to do something to help us with whatever we're struggling with I think is really what you're looking for because yeah they're they're right they may just something may come up out of the blue and they're like I really I'm having these big feelings and I don't know why. And you're like well it might be related to the fact that your dad died or it might just be related to that you're having big feelings but let's go talk let's go let's go find someone to gonna suss it out and I think that's when they're when they're again I'm picking kind of random about 10 if I'm my brain I'm not looking anything up right now but my brain is telling me somewhere around 10 it's still very black and white they're gonna have feelings they're gonna be big they're gonna have emotions they're gonna puddle jump but it's not like this let's sit down for a 60 minute session and talk about your feelings at 10 because they barely understand that beyond hungry and tired they barely understand their feelings.

Alicia 1:44:18

Oh and so many times I will end up dealing with a meltdown especially with Hannah uh my younger daughter and it starts with X and then we end 17 steps later at I'm also sad because Daddy's dead.

Matt 1:44:33

Yes.

Alicia 1:44:33

All of these things are valid. Yes but like you know it's not always it's not always like linear and it's not always this one thing is the only thing bothering me. So like something that I've had to learn is just to roll with what they need and like with what they're putting out because there's no fucking book on it.

Matt 1:44:52

No, they don't come with books. It's it's a rude disappointment. What um so C CBT cognitive behavioral therapy.

Alicia 1:45:01

Yeah. Unfortunately for them um we've been told that EMDR is borderline not so much recommended for brains this young it's not so okay yeah so you know we we stay away from that um and medication and like I won't say what meds they take but meds helped. There was a period of time where no one was sleeping and I said to their doctor I was like I'm going to die if we don't start sleeping. This is fair. I found out from a I I got a little offended by my doctor because she said that I had an extremely high caffeine usage. And I was like well because like I drink like three to four cups of coffee a day sometimes and she was like well that's that's very very high.

Matt 1:45:43

And I'm like no that's survival I'd find a new doctor right away.

Alicia 1:45:46

Right? Right I was a little I was a little offended.

Matt 1:45:51

When I found out how much caffeine you're supposed to have I spit out my caffeine and was like you gotta be kidding me like right who survives on that much well apparently there are people who don't drink coffee on a daily basis. Those people have no souls they no I know they they're functioning in some other wavelength um right so yeah we all we are all medicated and it helps yeah and um that's really powerful no no I think it's real powerful because I think um I know that listen people have to find what's going to work for them but I I know specifically there are some people that said exactly what they said where they finally had to go to the doctor and like and I I this is a quote I should put on a t-shirt grief grief makes you tired in a way sleep can't fix too yes and it's and so it it's you know the people say rest is best you're like well I'm laying here but like nothing's resetting I'm I'm right yeah I can I can actually I I actually did go look and I watched my like rem cycle get destroyed is that the deep one yeah the REM cycle get destroyed for the first like six months to a year. I mean I was going to bed for eight hours I'm using right but I was my REM it was instead of getting them whatever I don't know eight times in a night I was getting two of them and I'm like right I wonder I'm being exhausted every morning oh yeah well and it's like it's also like you can't just stop I you know the boyfriend that drove me back from Indiana I mean the kids became an ex-boyfriend partially because he didn't understand grief um and was like well I understand grief because my grandparents died and I'm like no your grandparents are supposed to die well you're not supposed to bury your kid's dad it's a swing and a miss it's an A for effort yeah and I mean that wasn't the only reason like I'm I'm oversimplifying but he was like well you just need to lay down and and and cry for a day and I'm like when am I supposed to have time to do that like these kids don't they're not stopping no they don't so I just have to keep moving otherwise like there's no one yeah yeah well and I think I I think one of the I to touch on kind of I'm not saying that he was entirely right but what what I will say is if there are there is a therapy method that talks about you're gonna take 10 minutes out of your day and you're gonna go in your room if you got to lock the door and tell the kids to watch shout out to Bluey because I love Blue to watch Blue Bluey yes to watch Bluey which uh 10 minutes would be two episodes of Bluey because they're five minutes a piece um and they're just gonna have to watch it and here's a insert whatever terrible treat you want to give them and you're just gonna blow your eyes out. That is a method because if you don't express your grief it's gonna show up oh absolutely show up in some weird way.

Alicia 1:48:31

So well what I would do would um I would set my security alarm um because I didn't want them to leave the house so I would set my security alarm and I would go take a nap or I would go take a launch hour or whatever it was.

Matt 1:48:45

I just duct tape mine to the wall I was like or she gonna that's one way to do it.

Alicia 1:48:52

I mean you know we have methods I was like listen like don't kill each other yeah like you know don't get anything out of the drawers and just right don't set the house on fire and please don't leave yeah um and then I'm gonna be whatever and I was lucky in that like they were old enough where I could step aside for that amount of time my thing was was like I didn't have the ability to stop moving entirely and just be comatose because they deserve they deserve me to be a functional adult.

Matt 1:49:24

Yeah we need to be present if you want to be a good parent being present is part of that for sure.

Alicia 1:49:29

Well and like something for my kids because we're very does we discuss mental illness and like they they know that there is or they are vaguely aware that there is a risk to them developing mental illness or anyone developing mental illness we've had very frank conversations about like you've got to take care of yourself. And my my oldest was like mommy if you get sick like daddy did can you please take your medicine and um I'm like honey like you know mommy is doing all of these things to make sure I Have as long of a life as possible, yeah. You know, but it's the things that you know, obviously she doesn't know that you could get hit by a car on a random Tuesday, but like you know, we do what we can, yeah.

Matt 1:50:13

So so um is there anything else that you would um do you want to say about this before I kind of wrap up with the way I kind of wrap up? Yes, okay.

Alicia 1:50:26

One thing that is just a cute story, I mentioned it to you before we started talking. Oh, yes, is let your kids let your kids say what they want to say. So we were the morning of the funeral, we were getting ready, and my my both my girls were like, I don't want to go. I don't want to do it, I don't want to deal with it, I don't want to see people. I said, I know. I looked at them, I was like, guys, it fucking sucks. This fucking sucks. It sucks that your daddy is dead, it sucks that we have to do this, it sucks that there is nothing that I can do to make this easier, but this is where we have to be. I said, the one thing we can do is I can tell you you can say it fucking sucks. And they were like, What? And they know all the swear words, but like they have a they understand that you don't just use them willy-nilly. I was like, you can say it fucking sucks in this house, as long as you know daddy's parents, your other grandparents aren't in the room. So my youngest starts running around the house shrieking, it fucking sucks. And it turned into something that made us all laugh. And my oldest jumped in and it was just it was beautiful because then moving forward, something would happen and they'd just be like, Mom, it fucking sucks right now. And that was a way for me to understand that they don't have to tell me everything in their inner world, right? But if they just say, Hey, this this fucking sucks, it's it's a clue to me that like they're they're having a time that you know they just need to use the big words to get it out.

Matt 1:51:58

I think this is a perfect example of that is grief being expressed and witnessed in the same moment. Yeah, I mean, that is it is a true thing. Um, and how I mean, let's be honest, when kids under the age of like, I'm I don't know why I'm whispering, under the age of eight swear, it's effing hilarious. It's adorable, freaking fantastic. And yeah, toss on a British accent and swearing in a little kid, you got yourself a whole Netflix special. I mean, it's hilarious. I don't care who you are, it's funny. Um uh I love that. Good for you for giving them permission to to express deeply and loudly how shitty of a situation all that is and or was and is. If you could go back, just and it's not that hasn't been that long for you, but if you could go back to at any point, because you your grief was over time, you were losing Dan over time. But if there is you could just go back, and in the early parts of, and I'm using grief generally, and so basically the idea is if someone is hearing this and they're in that kind of moment of early grief, what would you go tell them or yourself?

Alicia 1:53:07

Wow, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be different, it's gonna be crazy, it's gonna be nothing that you prepared yourself for, but you're gonna get through it. And you're gonna be okay. Yeah, because um, there's a Alex Warren song. It's uh you'll be all right, kid.

Matt 1:53:30

Yep.

Alicia 1:53:31

The girls came home one day with um wanting to listen to that, and I bawled like a baby, sure, probably the first 15 times that I heard it.

Matt 1:53:40

Yeah.

Alicia 1:53:40

Um, because that is you're you're gonna be okay and it's gonna suck, but you're gonna get through it. Um, and I think the other thing that like I would tell myself is to just keep finding helpers, you know, like take a note from Mr. Rogers and just keep finding the helpers because that's what gets you through. Um, and then if someone to someone as a widow or widower, figure out ways that you can outsource the stuff that's outsourceable. Um, you know, I use when I'm overloaded on laundry because my children apparently wear 80 outfits a day. Um, when I get overloaded, I use um an app that I used to do gig work for, and now they do work for me. Um, so they'll come pick up my laundry and drop it off the next day. Or, you know, stuff like that.

Matt 1:54:34

Us widowers have now come to the conclusion that this the universal sign for laundry is just the infinite symbol, just the how is it possible?

Alicia 1:54:45

Oh yeah, no, it doesn't end.

Matt 1:54:47

It's um, but yeah, so someone re someone reframed laundry for me. I think it was a male robin's guest on her podcast. They're like, Laund, why do you think laundry is supposed to be done? And she goes, Well, that's how I know it's done. She goes, Laundry, she goes, You're wearing clothes now, so they're technically and it's and all of a sudden she goes, Wait, laundry's not supposed to be done. She goes, No, laundry's always in a state of being. And I was like, You mean it's not to be done? And it's like it changes the whole mindset where you're like, I have to finish. You're like, No, because the clothes I'm wearing right now will be dirty in moments. And so and I was like, Oh, laundry's not something that's to be done. It's not like painting a room because it's always right now. It's like, oh, it's just a cycle, yeah. It's just a cycle, it's in stages of being doneness, dirty green, dirty green. But yeah, I just I just keep finding it.

Alicia 1:55:32

Yeah, I just keep finding people. So, like, you know, I have for my schedule so that I can pick my kids up from school, instead of them going to before and after care, I have somebody come to the house in the morning and she gets them ready. I'm out the door at 5:30, five, well, 545 in the morning, but I'm able to then pick them up at three o'clock in the afternoon.

Matt 1:55:53

Gotta do what you gotta do.

Alicia 1:55:54

And it's but it it makes it it makes it easier for everybody, it makes it easier for the kids because they're not rushing around and it gives us more quality time in the evenings.

Matt 1:56:03

Yeah. And by the way, you're not allowed to give kids caffeine, so you can't get them up at five. Damn it. I know. Doctors, what do they know? Um, anything else you tell somebody early on this journey? I love all of those. Those are all great.

Alicia 1:56:17

I can't think of anything else other than just keep just keep chucking because that's the only way to go.

Matt 1:56:24

Yeah. Um which order do I want to assist? You're gonna want to grab another one. All right, you're ready. All right. Be ready. These this is this is this is where your kids can't. If Dan could say anything to you right now, what do you think Dan would say?

Alicia 1:56:49

I think he'd say, I'm really fucking proud of you. Because he pulled it together. Because I think that he knew. I think that he always knew that I would be able to make sure that kids were okay and make sure that I was okay. I think that he uh he would he would scratch our dog, the the girls and I's dog's ears, um, because that was an acquisition after he died. And he would say, You're doing great. And he'd say, I love you all. And I'd tell him that too, that I love him too. Because that love, even though, even with all the things that happened, that that love never went away.

Matt 1:57:49

Wow. Appreciate it. Well, I think you kind of said it in there. Is there anything else you would want to say to Dan?

Alicia 1:58:05

I love you. I forgive you. I hope I hope that whatever happens after this that you are at peace. Oh yeah. And that at the big milestone moments that that you know that the girls are are the amazing, incredible, chaotic little demons that they are. Because he'd be he would love seeing that.

Matt 1:58:42

I don't know why I do this to myself either. So the last one is if and when uh Hannah and Josephine, if they were to ever find out their mom was on a podcast and they got to the end, yeah. What would you want to tell them?

Alicia 1:59:02

I didn't do everything perfectly. And I but I did the best that I could at the moments that I did the best that I could with what I knew and what I understood. And that um this has been a hell of an experience to see them grow into the amazing and incredible people that they are, and that I am so proud of them and that their dad would love everything that they're doing. Um and I think I'd want them to understand that like he loved them so much that I think that he knew that in the way that he was going, that he couldn't get better or that he wasn't able to get better at that time, and he he wanted them to be okay, and he didn't want to keep like creating dramas, like yeah, I it's hard to describe. I think he thought he was doing the best thing for them. Um and it's uh I don't yeah, I would never I would honest, I would trade anything for him to be here. Well, no, I would not trade anything, but I would love for him to be here, yeah, healthy and able to see them, even if we were just co-parenting. Yeah, I would love for him to be able to see them, but I'm also very glad that like he's not in pain and that he's not suffering with some trauma that I don't think he even fully understood what he was carrying.

Matt 2:01:04

Yeah.

Alicia 2:01:05

But yeah, that I just yeah, I love him and I forgive him. And I hope the girls know how much he loved them because they're he had so much love for those kids. They they brought him so much joy.

Matt 2:01:21

Yeah.

Alicia 2:01:24

Oh you're killing me. Well bad choice of words.

Matt 2:01:30

Not on this podcast. So I think um I just want to make sure that I thank you for being so courageous to share all of that with me and the people who are gonna listen. It takes a lot to be honest about what you went through, what Dan went through, the I'm just gonna use the word the chaos that started and and and went on for a period of time. Um I can hear when you're talking about what was and what happened and now what is that you know there is so much love in there and love, like I said in the middle there, if if love could cure illness, we would all be there'd be no ERs. It would be but that's not how it works. And you know you've really done a lot to build a life um even out of all of that chaos. And so thank you for sharing all that. Thank you for being vulnerable enough to share those things. Um I think I don't think I know this is gonna resonate with a lot of people because much like young widows in general, mental health gets a really interesting place. It it doesn't seem to fit at a certain table, and it won other people want to not talk about it in another court in another place, and so I think it's super powerful that we're honest about that, and um I'm proud of you for sharing all this, and so and I know your girls are gonna be proud of you because you're welcome, because um I'm seven years out, and my daughter will still say things to me, and I'm like, All right, thanks, but she's not wrong. I am the I have the mug and I am the best dad in the world, so I am sure the kiddos think the same thing about their mom, and it's and the fact that when people talk about like, am I doing it right? Uh I've messed up, all those type of self-reflection questions just go to show that we are doing we are doing the right job because we're asking because someone who didn't care won't ask those questions, right? Right. So um, man, uh uh ma'am, man. I I man, there are so there are really there is a lot, Alicia, that I wrote down that I will follow up for some clarification and stuff. But I mean, all of the honesty I think is super important. There's so many takeaways, whether it's at the end talking about outsourcing or just how you communicate to kids about death, um, there is a lot in here, and then you know, all of it's wrapped up in in mental mental health and everything. I through a couple of conversations recently, I know how death impacts people, but I didn't fully understand that when someone is dealing with mental illness, and then if they go ahead and add in some self-medication or unfortunately turns to addiction, the shrapnel ripple effect that is left while they're here and while not, it's just it is it's a lot. It is a lot to handle. So um, thank you for doing this and taking time out of your solo parent night. And um I really appreciate it.

Alicia 2:05:14

Thank you so much, Matt. It's been hard talking about it, but it's been it's been good. This is the uh most public that I've probably talked about a lot of this journey. So I appreciate your time.

Matt 2:05:26

Well, thank you, and thank you for being so strong to do so and trusting me with it. I appreciate it.

Alicia 2:05:31

Thank you.