{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.6,"endTime":3.27,"body":"All right, I always like to say"},{"startTime":0.6,"endTime":3.27,"body":"something wrong at the very"},{"startTime":3.27,"endTime":5.73,"body":"start. Safiya has to do at least"},{"startTime":3.27,"endTime":5.73,"body":"a little bit of work editing."},{"startTime":7.32,"endTime":9.42,"body":"Okay, Colin good to go."},{"startTime":10.98,"endTime":12.33,"body":"Thank you. I look forward to it."},{"startTime":12.54,"endTime":16.26,"body":"Okay. Hi there. My name is Peter"},{"startTime":12.54,"endTime":16.26,"body":"bell. And today I'm speaking"},{"startTime":16.26,"endTime":20.61,"body":"with Colin Earle, the CTO of"},{"startTime":16.26,"endTime":20.61,"body":"agile, oft calm. Thanks so much"},{"startTime":20.61,"endTime":22.11,"body":"for taking the time to talk"},{"startTime":20.61,"endTime":22.11,"body":"today."},{"startTime":22.83,"endTime":23.76,"body":"Thank you, Peter."},{"startTime":24.12,"endTime":27.09,"body":"Now, usually, but we're always"},{"startTime":24.12,"endTime":27.09,"body":"talking about topics that relate"},{"startTime":27.09,"endTime":30.18,"body":"to engineering leaders. And so"},{"startTime":27.09,"endTime":30.18,"body":"usually it's about programming"},{"startTime":30.18,"endTime":33.81,"body":"or building and managing"},{"startTime":30.18,"endTime":33.81,"body":"engineering teams or hiring. But"},{"startTime":34.08,"endTime":36.81,"body":"I know that you're passionate"},{"startTime":34.08,"endTime":36.81,"body":"about a whole other area, which"},{"startTime":36.81,"endTime":38.85,"body":"I think is going to be"},{"startTime":36.81,"endTime":38.85,"body":"transformative to engineering"},{"startTime":38.85,"endTime":43.08,"body":"leaders of the next decade,"},{"startTime":38.85,"endTime":43.08,"body":"which is the area of no code,"},{"startTime":43.47,"endTime":46.65,"body":"right? So it's where you kind of"},{"startTime":43.47,"endTime":46.65,"body":"have citizen developers writing"},{"startTime":46.65,"endTime":50.13,"body":"their own apps within the"},{"startTime":46.65,"endTime":50.13,"body":"departments. Firstly, why do you"},{"startTime":50.13,"endTime":53.43,"body":"think that's going to be"},{"startTime":50.13,"endTime":53.43,"body":"relevant to CTOs at all?"},{"startTime":54.59,"endTime":58.58,"body":"Well, it's been a movement,"},{"startTime":54.59,"endTime":58.58,"body":"which is gathering pace for the"},{"startTime":58.58,"endTime":62.69,"body":"past five to 10 years, and the"},{"startTime":58.58,"endTime":62.69,"body":"adoption of no code platforms"},{"startTime":62.9,"endTime":67.58,"body":"made a lot of progress in 2020."},{"startTime":62.9,"endTime":67.58,"body":"As companies scrambled to deploy"},{"startTime":67.58,"endTime":71.96,"body":"new technologies in reaction to"},{"startTime":67.58,"endTime":71.96,"body":"the covid 19 pandemic, with"},{"startTime":71.99,"endTime":76.04,"body":"highly configurable automation,"},{"startTime":71.99,"endTime":76.04,"body":"no code increases efficiently."},{"startTime":76.28,"endTime":80.69,"body":"But above all, it greatly"},{"startTime":76.28,"endTime":80.69,"body":"reduces the time and the risk in"},{"startTime":80.69,"endTime":85.19,"body":"deploying digital systems. And"},{"startTime":80.69,"endTime":85.19,"body":"this gives organizations a new"},{"startTime":85.19,"endTime":89.33,"body":"level of dexterity, that allows"},{"startTime":85.19,"endTime":89.33,"body":"them to customize their systems"},{"startTime":89.33,"endTime":92.93,"body":"to fit the most complex"},{"startTime":89.33,"endTime":92.93,"body":"processes adapt when"},{"startTime":92.93,"endTime":97.13,"body":"circumstances change, and"},{"startTime":92.93,"endTime":97.13,"body":"automate processes to free up"},{"startTime":97.13,"endTime":101.09,"body":"time was better spent from"},{"startTime":97.13,"endTime":101.09,"body":"customers or other initiatives."},{"startTime":101.87,"endTime":106.22,"body":"So that makes a lot of sense. If"},{"startTime":101.87,"endTime":106.22,"body":"I'm a CTO, and I'm working,"},{"startTime":106.22,"endTime":109.37,"body":"perhaps in a larger enterprise,"},{"startTime":106.22,"endTime":109.37,"body":"I have departments that are"},{"startTime":109.37,"endTime":113.0,"body":"saying, Hey, we want to use web"},{"startTime":109.37,"endTime":113.0,"body":"flow, or Babel or one of the,"},{"startTime":113.0,"endTime":114.44,"body":"you know, BPA tools."},{"startTime":115.82,"endTime":120.11,"body":"How do I engage with that? Is it"},{"startTime":115.82,"endTime":120.11,"body":"a project that my team should be"},{"startTime":120.14,"endTime":125.45,"body":"developing? And I hire some kind"},{"startTime":120.14,"endTime":125.45,"body":"of semi coders? Or are how do I"},{"startTime":125.45,"endTime":128.42,"body":"support? Or should I be"},{"startTime":125.45,"endTime":128.42,"body":"supporting the business units in"},{"startTime":128.42,"endTime":130.16,"body":"building their own solutions?"},{"startTime":131.63,"endTime":135.74,"body":"Well, I think that the"},{"startTime":131.63,"endTime":135.74,"body":"engineering leaders need to"},{"startTime":135.74,"endTime":139.73,"body":"select Tools that empower the"},{"startTime":135.74,"endTime":139.73,"body":"rest of the organization to"},{"startTime":139.73,"endTime":143.69,"body":"operate as independently as"},{"startTime":139.73,"endTime":143.69,"body":"possible, while maintaining"},{"startTime":143.69,"endTime":149.36,"body":"security uptime and seamless"},{"startTime":143.69,"endTime":149.36,"body":"upgrades. And these enterprise"},{"startTime":149.36,"endTime":152.33,"body":"considerations are really"},{"startTime":149.36,"endTime":152.33,"body":"something that the engineering"},{"startTime":152.33,"endTime":158.24,"body":"leaders, CTOs VPS, see, CIOs"},{"startTime":152.33,"endTime":158.24,"body":"need to address and make sure"},{"startTime":158.24,"endTime":163.43,"body":"are fully supported in the"},{"startTime":158.24,"endTime":163.43,"body":"options that they give two to"},{"startTime":163.43,"endTime":168.29,"body":"the business users and to the"},{"startTime":163.43,"endTime":168.29,"body":"other IP phone. So engineering"},{"startTime":168.29,"endTime":173.39,"body":"leaders need to manage the"},{"startTime":168.29,"endTime":173.39,"body":"discussion. But of course, make"},{"startTime":173.63,"endTime":177.11,"body":"final recommendations based upon"},{"startTime":173.63,"endTime":177.11,"body":"the input of both business"},{"startTime":177.11,"endTime":178.37,"body":"leaders and IT."},{"startTime":178.94,"endTime":182.81,"body":"Now given that, Does that"},{"startTime":178.94,"endTime":182.81,"body":"suggest would you primarily"},{"startTime":182.81,"endTime":186.2,"body":"choose a tool This is our"},{"startTime":182.81,"endTime":186.2,"body":"business protect process"},{"startTime":186.2,"endTime":190.76,"body":"automation tool, or provide a"},{"startTime":186.2,"endTime":190.76,"body":"menu for different departments"},{"startTime":190.76,"endTime":193.13,"body":"to choose from, depending upon"},{"startTime":190.76,"endTime":193.13,"body":"their use cases?"},{"startTime":194.24,"endTime":197.9,"body":"You would typically look look to"},{"startTime":194.24,"endTime":197.9,"body":"find the tool that can address"},{"startTime":197.9,"endTime":202.55,"body":"the needs of as many departments"},{"startTime":197.9,"endTime":202.55,"body":"as possible. Yeah, subject, of"},{"startTime":202.55,"endTime":205.46,"body":"course, to the proviso that you"},{"startTime":202.55,"endTime":205.46,"body":"shouldn't be jamming a square"},{"startTime":205.46,"endTime":209.87,"body":"peg into a round hole, it has to"},{"startTime":205.46,"endTime":209.87,"body":"be a natural fit. But given that"},{"startTime":209.87,"endTime":214.7,"body":"there are tremendous economies"},{"startTime":209.87,"endTime":214.7,"body":"of scale, simplicity, and above"},{"startTime":214.7,"endTime":219.26,"body":"all the seamless flow of data"},{"startTime":214.7,"endTime":219.26,"body":"between departments if everybody"},{"startTime":219.26,"endTime":220.52,"body":"is running on the same tool."},{"startTime":221.45,"endTime":224.87,"body":"Now, when you're running on"},{"startTime":221.45,"endTime":224.87,"body":"these tools, do you still find"},{"startTime":224.87,"endTime":229.13,"body":"that there is a role for the"},{"startTime":224.87,"endTime":229.13,"body":"engineering org in a support"},{"startTime":229.13,"endTime":235.52,"body":"role in terms of providing API's"},{"startTime":229.13,"endTime":235.52,"body":"around databases, or how what"},{"startTime":235.52,"endTime":240.77,"body":"parts what subset of these"},{"startTime":235.52,"endTime":240.77,"body":"systems should still be built by"},{"startTime":240.8,"endTime":242.78,"body":"an experienced engineering team?"},{"startTime":244.46,"endTime":249.92,"body":"The the engineering team"},{"startTime":244.46,"endTime":249.92,"body":"typically has expertise in data"},{"startTime":249.92,"endTime":254.3,"body":"mapping basic configuration,"},{"startTime":249.92,"endTime":254.3,"body":"which the business users don't"},{"startTime":254.3,"endTime":258.92,"body":"have, and they will frequently"},{"startTime":254.3,"endTime":258.92,"body":"be involved in designing"},{"startTime":258.95,"endTime":264.98,"body":"architecting these systems."},{"startTime":258.95,"endTime":264.98,"body":"There's this there's two truths"},{"startTime":264.98,"endTime":267.59,"body":"here. The core truth is that"},{"startTime":268.61,"endTime":273.65,"body":"providing a no code system to a"},{"startTime":268.61,"endTime":273.65,"body":"developer to an IT person as"},{"startTime":273.65,"endTime":278.84,"body":"much as to a business user"},{"startTime":273.65,"endTime":278.84,"body":"increases, efficiency increases"},{"startTime":278.84,"endTime":283.31,"body":"the speed with which they can"},{"startTime":278.84,"endTime":283.31,"body":"build a production quality"},{"startTime":283.37,"endTime":288.47,"body":"solution from that by an order"},{"startTime":283.37,"endTime":288.47,"body":"of magnitude or more. It's like"},{"startTime":288.47,"endTime":291.77,"body":"giving somebody a chainsaw to"},{"startTime":288.47,"endTime":291.77,"body":"work with if they're carving a"},{"startTime":291.77,"endTime":297.26,"body":"statue rather than the hammer"},{"startTime":291.77,"endTime":297.26,"body":"and chisel. However, giving"},{"startTime":297.26,"endTime":300.17,"body":"somebody a chainsaw doesn't turn"},{"startTime":297.26,"endTime":300.17,"body":"them into Michelangelo."},{"startTime":301.16,"endTime":304.67,"body":"You know, you still, you still"},{"startTime":301.16,"endTime":304.67,"body":"need to make a lot of decisions"},{"startTime":304.73,"endTime":308.57,"body":"when you're building these"},{"startTime":304.73,"endTime":308.57,"body":"systems. And it's typically it"},{"startTime":308.57,"endTime":313.07,"body":"people who can make the complex"},{"startTime":308.57,"endTime":313.07,"body":"architectural decisions that"},{"startTime":313.07,"endTime":316.64,"body":"base the decisions that what"},{"startTime":313.07,"endTime":316.64,"body":"data they're going to capture,"},{"startTime":316.64,"endTime":319.16,"body":"what are the relationships"},{"startTime":316.64,"endTime":319.16,"body":"between that data and the"},{"startTime":319.16,"endTime":325.46,"body":"workflow, etc. That said, once"},{"startTime":319.16,"endTime":325.46,"body":"that's done, there's a whole ton"},{"startTime":325.46,"endTime":329.9,"body":"of work that can can be done by"},{"startTime":325.46,"endTime":329.9,"body":"business users with no risks in"},{"startTime":329.9,"endTime":333.23,"body":"a matter of minutes, they need"},{"startTime":329.9,"endTime":333.23,"body":"to add a new choice field, for"},{"startTime":333.23,"endTime":337.79,"body":"example, that shouldn't take it."},{"startTime":333.23,"endTime":337.79,"body":"But you know, it should be a"},{"startTime":337.79,"endTime":341.84,"body":"five minute task. trivial. And"},{"startTime":337.79,"endTime":341.84,"body":"you shouldn't need to take the"},{"startTime":341.84,"endTime":343.43,"body":"system down in order to do it."},{"startTime":344.3,"endTime":346.61,"body":"Absolutely. And I feel like"},{"startTime":344.3,"endTime":346.61,"body":"that's a trend even in the"},{"startTime":346.61,"endTime":348.95,"body":"software development world is"},{"startTime":346.61,"endTime":348.95,"body":"we're looking at how we can"},{"startTime":348.95,"endTime":353.42,"body":"reduce downtime and give"},{"startTime":348.95,"endTime":353.42,"body":"ourselves more control over the"},{"startTime":353.42,"endTime":359.36,"body":"deployment experience. So it's"},{"startTime":353.42,"endTime":359.36,"body":"one of the it's always"},{"startTime":359.36,"endTime":362.69,"body":"interesting to me for I feel"},{"startTime":359.36,"endTime":362.69,"body":"that I usually built a no code"},{"startTime":362.69,"endTime":366.38,"body":"solution back in 99. It was"},{"startTime":362.69,"endTime":366.38,"body":"million dollar websites for 1000"},{"startTime":366.38,"endTime":369.11,"body":"bucks a month. And we had this"},{"startTime":366.38,"endTime":369.11,"body":"incredibly rich kind of XML"},{"startTime":369.11,"endTime":373.13,"body":"language for describing user"},{"startTime":369.11,"endTime":373.13,"body":"interfaces and functionality and"},{"startTime":373.13,"endTime":377.69,"body":"workflows. And MDM we didn't we"},{"startTime":373.13,"endTime":377.69,"body":"were a little early for our time"},{"startTime":377.69,"endTime":381.32,"body":"and unable to scale, but it's a"},{"startTime":377.69,"endTime":381.32,"body":"domain I've been fascinated"},{"startTime":381.32,"endTime":385.34,"body":"about for years. Typically, the"},{"startTime":381.32,"endTime":385.34,"body":"challenges and the push backs I"},{"startTime":385.34,"endTime":388.73,"body":"see from engineering orgs are"},{"startTime":385.34,"endTime":388.73,"body":"the things we've learned the"},{"startTime":388.73,"endTime":393.41,"body":"hard way about writing custom"},{"startTime":388.73,"endTime":393.41,"body":"software. So maybe to go through"},{"startTime":393.41,"endTime":396.05,"body":"some of those. So for example,"},{"startTime":393.41,"endTime":396.05,"body":"how do you think about data"},{"startTime":396.05,"endTime":399.47,"body":"integrity, where you have six"},{"startTime":396.05,"endTime":399.47,"body":"departments creating front ends"},{"startTime":399.47,"endTime":403.46,"body":"that effectively engage with the"},{"startTime":399.47,"endTime":403.46,"body":"same persistence layer? How do"},{"startTime":403.46,"endTime":406.55,"body":"you ensure that the business"},{"startTime":403.46,"endTime":406.55,"body":"rules are wrapped around that"},{"startTime":406.55,"endTime":410.0,"body":"persistence layer in a way that"},{"startTime":406.55,"endTime":410.0,"body":"you don't get invalid data from"},{"startTime":410.0,"endTime":411.44,"body":"department number three,"},{"startTime":413.34,"endTime":420.6,"body":"the person or the persistence by"},{"startTime":413.34,"endTime":420.6,"body":"the GUI with which they enter"},{"startTime":420.66,"endTime":425.07,"body":"interface with the system is"},{"startTime":420.66,"endTime":425.07,"body":"tied directly to the backend"},{"startTime":425.07,"endTime":431.13,"body":"database structures. So even if"},{"startTime":425.07,"endTime":431.13,"body":"you have to have six different"},{"startTime":431.13,"endTime":436.05,"body":"gooeys, they're all interacting"},{"startTime":431.13,"endTime":436.05,"body":"directly with the database. And"},{"startTime":436.5,"endTime":440.43,"body":"database locking prevents them"},{"startTime":436.5,"endTime":440.43,"body":"prevents two people from"},{"startTime":440.67,"endTime":443.73,"body":"accessing or updating the same"},{"startTime":440.67,"endTime":443.73,"body":"system at the same time."},{"startTime":445.01,"endTime":449.09,"body":"The very worst that you can"},{"startTime":445.01,"endTime":449.09,"body":"encounter in such a system is"},{"startTime":449.09,"endTime":454.79,"body":"that it may be that one GUI, for"},{"startTime":449.09,"endTime":454.79,"body":"example, requires that user a"},{"startTime":454.79,"endTime":459.02,"body":"user enters particular data, the"},{"startTime":454.79,"endTime":459.02,"body":"other GUI doesn't require that"},{"startTime":459.02,"endTime":461.87,"body":"they enter that provide a value"},{"startTime":459.02,"endTime":461.87,"body":"for that field."},{"startTime":462.02,"endTime":464.54,"body":"And, and that's really where"},{"startTime":462.02,"endTime":464.54,"body":"I've seen this happen. So I"},{"startTime":464.54,"endTime":467.57,"body":"mean, obviously, you can create"},{"startTime":464.54,"endTime":467.57,"body":"database constraints, you can't"},{"startTime":467.57,"endTime":471.11,"body":"put a string, you can't put a"},{"startTime":467.57,"endTime":471.11,"body":"series of alphanumeric"},{"startTime":471.11,"endTime":475.1,"body":"characters into a numeric field,"},{"startTime":471.11,"endTime":475.1,"body":"you can't put a string into a"},{"startTime":475.1,"endTime":478.55,"body":"Boolean. So there are base level"},{"startTime":475.1,"endTime":478.55,"body":"database constraints you get for"},{"startTime":478.55,"endTime":482.18,"body":"free from most relational"},{"startTime":478.55,"endTime":482.18,"body":"database systems, the challenge"},{"startTime":482.18,"endTime":486.2,"body":"becomes when you says, This must"},{"startTime":482.18,"endTime":486.2,"body":"be a US phone number. So it must"},{"startTime":486.2,"endTime":490.43,"body":"be this number of digits, it"},{"startTime":486.2,"endTime":490.43,"body":"must, and if one of the gooeys"},{"startTime":490.43,"endTime":492.83,"body":"requires it to be a US phone"},{"startTime":490.43,"endTime":492.83,"body":"number, but the other just"},{"startTime":492.83,"endTime":495.41,"body":"requires it to be a phone"},{"startTime":492.83,"endTime":495.41,"body":"number, you get, you know, plus"},{"startTime":495.41,"endTime":499.88,"body":"for for for a call to the United"},{"startTime":495.41,"endTime":499.88,"body":"Kingdom, one of the one of the"},{"startTime":499.88,"endTime":503.48,"body":"systems might get a little"},{"startTime":499.88,"endTime":503.48,"body":"unhappy, have any of the vendors"},{"startTime":503.48,"endTime":508.43,"body":"starting to think about and"},{"startTime":503.48,"endTime":508.43,"body":"solve that class of providing a"},{"startTime":508.55,"endTime":514.52,"body":"richer set of constraints around"},{"startTime":508.55,"endTime":514.52,"body":"the persistence mechanism?"},{"startTime":515.45,"endTime":519.08,"body":"Well, speaking, just fragile if"},{"startTime":515.45,"endTime":519.08,"body":"we implement the constraints"},{"startTime":519.08,"endTime":522.62,"body":"that you describe at the server"},{"startTime":519.08,"endTime":522.62,"body":"level, not at the GUI level."},{"startTime":524.13,"endTime":528.84,"body":"And of course, that in those"},{"startTime":524.13,"endTime":528.84,"body":"constraints implemented"},{"startTime":528.84,"endTime":530.16,"body":"instantly, not"},{"startTime":531.18,"endTime":535.02,"body":"at the database layer, but a"},{"startTime":531.18,"endTime":535.02,"body":"layer above the database, so"},{"startTime":535.02,"endTime":540.18,"body":"that we can have a rich that so"},{"startTime":535.02,"endTime":540.18,"body":"constraints that databases don't"},{"startTime":540.51,"endTime":544.32,"body":"typically support. To take an"},{"startTime":540.51,"endTime":544.32,"body":"example, we might specify that"},{"startTime":544.32,"endTime":547.77,"body":"when somebody is entering their"},{"startTime":544.32,"endTime":547.77,"body":"age, it should be somewhere"},{"startTime":547.77,"endTime":550.14,"body":"between zero"},{"startTime":551.43,"endTime":552.33,"body":"and 125."},{"startTime":553.56,"endTime":556.17,"body":"Data databases don't have such"},{"startTime":553.56,"endTime":556.17,"body":"constraints, but it's a"},{"startTime":556.17,"endTime":558.66,"body":"reasonable constraint to ensure"},{"startTime":556.17,"endTime":558.66,"body":"the age is valid."},{"startTime":559.95,"endTime":562.2,"body":"That That makes a lot of sense."},{"startTime":559.95,"endTime":562.2,"body":"So you do have that level."},{"startTime":562.2,"endTime":564.96,"body":"Because it's something like with"},{"startTime":562.2,"endTime":564.96,"body":"custom software development,"},{"startTime":564.96,"endTime":567.69,"body":"what you often do is wrap an API"},{"startTime":564.96,"endTime":567.69,"body":"around the database. So you"},{"startTime":567.69,"endTime":571.8,"body":"don't just have three Rails apps"},{"startTime":567.69,"endTime":571.8,"body":"speaking to the same database,"},{"startTime":571.8,"endTime":575.22,"body":"and one of them messing up the"},{"startTime":571.8,"endTime":575.22,"body":"the underlying data. So so that"},{"startTime":575.22,"endTime":577.89,"body":"makes perfect sense that you"},{"startTime":575.22,"endTime":577.89,"body":"have this this model of a server"},{"startTime":577.89,"endTime":581.67,"body":"level where you can effectively"},{"startTime":577.89,"endTime":581.67,"body":"enforce those constraints across"},{"startTime":581.67,"endTime":582.39,"body":"scurries."},{"startTime":583.44,"endTime":584.07,"body":"Just so"},{"startTime":585.0,"endTime":589.95,"body":"nice. So I guess the next"},{"startTime":585.0,"endTime":589.95,"body":"question is, I as you see"},{"startTime":589.95,"endTime":592.92,"body":"adoption of this, are you"},{"startTime":589.95,"endTime":592.92,"body":"primarily seeing this as"},{"startTime":592.92,"endTime":596.34,"body":"something that is driven by the"},{"startTime":592.92,"endTime":596.34,"body":"CTO and or CIO, who's saying,"},{"startTime":596.34,"endTime":599.43,"body":"hey, departments go solve your"},{"startTime":596.34,"endTime":599.43,"body":"own problems? Or is it much more"},{"startTime":599.43,"endTime":602.64,"body":"kind of a consumer pool thing"},{"startTime":599.43,"endTime":602.64,"body":"like it was with BYOD, a few"},{"startTime":602.64,"endTime":605.94,"body":"years ago, where people are just"},{"startTime":602.64,"endTime":605.94,"body":"rocking up and saying I've built"},{"startTime":605.94,"endTime":607.41,"body":"something in a tool,"},{"startTime":608.79,"endTime":614.49,"body":"it began as somewhat of a BYOD"},{"startTime":608.79,"endTime":614.49,"body":"thing, the business, the"},{"startTime":614.49,"endTime":617.55,"body":"business users would find the"},{"startTime":614.49,"endTime":617.55,"body":"technology, they'd find the"},{"startTime":617.55,"endTime":622.05,"body":"solution, engage with the"},{"startTime":617.55,"endTime":622.05,"body":"vendor, and start building"},{"startTime":622.05,"endTime":625.92,"body":"applications or have an"},{"startTime":622.05,"endTime":625.92,"body":"application built for them on a"},{"startTime":625.92,"endTime":629.73,"body":"no code platform, and then take"},{"startTime":625.92,"endTime":629.73,"body":"it over to IP and say, This is"},{"startTime":629.73,"endTime":630.42,"body":"what we want."},{"startTime":632.13,"endTime":636.24,"body":"Increasingly, though, it's"},{"startTime":632.13,"endTime":636.24,"body":"because it's being driven by IP,"},{"startTime":637.26,"endTime":641.52,"body":"the IT folks are extremely"},{"startTime":637.26,"endTime":641.52,"body":"sharp, and they recognize that"},{"startTime":641.52,"endTime":646.26,"body":"this is really a way for getting"},{"startTime":641.52,"endTime":646.26,"body":"them out of from under what has"},{"startTime":646.26,"endTime":649.71,"body":"been completely unrealistic"},{"startTime":646.26,"endTime":649.71,"body":"expectations on the part of"},{"startTime":649.71,"endTime":653.37,"body":"their business users. You know,"},{"startTime":649.71,"endTime":653.37,"body":"the business users expect"},{"startTime":653.37,"endTime":657.0,"body":"turnaround times measured in a"},{"startTime":653.37,"endTime":657.0,"body":"few weeks,"},{"startTime":658.08,"endTime":663.09,"body":"it has been saying for years,"},{"startTime":658.08,"endTime":663.09,"body":"that they're able to roll out a"},{"startTime":663.09,"endTime":667.17,"body":"new release of this enterprise"},{"startTime":663.09,"endTime":667.17,"body":"system to make substantive"},{"startTime":667.17,"endTime":669.63,"body":"updates to it on a nine month"},{"startTime":667.17,"endTime":669.63,"body":"schedule."},{"startTime":670.74,"endTime":674.55,"body":"You know, here's the thing, if"},{"startTime":670.74,"endTime":674.55,"body":"you're rolling out a new release"},{"startTime":674.55,"endTime":680.49,"body":"of SAP, say, every nine months,"},{"startTime":674.55,"endTime":680.49,"body":"that's, that's a truly herculean"},{"startTime":680.91,"endTime":684.3,"body":"task. I mean, it's"},{"startTime":680.91,"endTime":684.3,"body":"extraordinary, you know,"},{"startTime":684.81,"endTime":688.68,"body":"monumental effort and dedication"},{"startTime":684.81,"endTime":688.68,"body":"and disciplines required to do"},{"startTime":688.68,"endTime":692.64,"body":"something like that. But the"},{"startTime":688.68,"endTime":692.64,"body":"person is still extremely"},{"startTime":692.67,"endTime":695.1,"body":"unhappy. And you know, and"},{"startTime":692.67,"endTime":695.1,"body":"rightly so."},{"startTime":705.69,"endTime":708.63,"body":"We had one customer who said,"},{"startTime":705.69,"endTime":708.63,"body":"you know, it's always great to"},{"startTime":708.63,"endTime":711.87,"body":"go into a meeting and hear"},{"startTime":708.63,"endTime":711.87,"body":"people talking about the"},{"startTime":711.87,"endTime":716.16,"body":"features and functionalities"},{"startTime":711.87,"endTime":716.16,"body":"that they'd like to have, and"},{"startTime":716.19,"endTime":721.71,"body":"have that functionality built"},{"startTime":716.19,"endTime":721.71,"body":"out hours later. I mean,"},{"startTime":721.74,"endTime":725.46,"body":"literally the same day, I turn"},{"startTime":721.74,"endTime":725.46,"body":"around, say what, you know, here"},{"startTime":725.46,"endTime":726.39,"body":"it is, guys,"},{"startTime":726.75,"endTime":729.96,"body":"I've even seen that the like"},{"startTime":726.75,"endTime":729.96,"body":"working session meeting"},{"startTime":729.96,"endTime":732.06,"body":"experience where any doesn't"},{"startTime":729.96,"endTime":732.06,"body":"work for everything, where it's"},{"startTime":732.06,"endTime":735.12,"body":"like, Wait a second, what was it"},{"startTime":732.06,"endTime":735.12,"body":"You said you wanted that field"},{"startTime":735.12,"endTime":738.33,"body":"to be called? And you can"},{"startTime":735.12,"endTime":738.33,"body":"actually even engage in real"},{"startTime":738.33,"endTime":740.91,"body":"time to get real time feedback"},{"startTime":738.33,"endTime":740.91,"body":"on none of that. That's what I"},{"startTime":740.91,"endTime":744.3,"body":"said. But now I see it, that's"},{"startTime":740.91,"endTime":744.3,"body":"too many fields. Let's just"},{"startTime":744.3,"endTime":745.59,"body":"remove some of those."},{"startTime":746.16,"endTime":750.06,"body":"Exactly. We do that from demos"},{"startTime":746.16,"endTime":750.06,"body":"the whole time. You know,"},{"startTime":750.06,"endTime":753.06,"body":"they'll say, what can you do"},{"startTime":750.06,"endTime":753.06,"body":"this? And we'll do it and say,"},{"startTime":753.06,"endTime":753.81,"body":"you mean that?"},{"startTime":756.57,"endTime":760.05,"body":"It really does, it empowers I"},{"startTime":756.57,"endTime":760.05,"body":"think the business stakeholders"},{"startTime":760.05,"endTime":763.59,"body":"when they compare with a, let's"},{"startTime":760.05,"endTime":763.59,"body":"just call it citizen developer"},{"startTime":763.59,"endTime":766.68,"body":"for the lack of a better term."},{"startTime":763.59,"endTime":766.68,"body":"Now, somebody who is capable in"},{"startTime":766.68,"endTime":772.74,"body":"a no code platform to actually"},{"startTime":766.68,"endTime":772.74,"body":"run those experiments. It brings"},{"startTime":772.74,"endTime":775.98,"body":"one question to mind when when"},{"startTime":772.74,"endTime":775.98,"body":"I'm take this term citizen"},{"startTime":775.98,"endTime":778.59,"body":"developer or whatever, it should"},{"startTime":775.98,"endTime":778.59,"body":"be called this person who is"},{"startTime":778.68,"endTime":783.75,"body":"capable of configuring a no code"},{"startTime":778.68,"endTime":783.75,"body":"system? Is there a compensation"},{"startTime":783.78,"endTime":787.05,"body":"impact on this? Are they gonna"},{"startTime":783.78,"endTime":787.05,"body":"cost you the same as senior"},{"startTime":787.08,"endTime":790.89,"body":"front end react developer in New"},{"startTime":787.08,"endTime":790.89,"body":"York City? Or do you do you get"},{"startTime":790.89,"endTime":793.56,"body":"some benefit from the fact that"},{"startTime":790.89,"endTime":793.56,"body":"their skill set is at least"},{"startTime":793.56,"endTime":796.74,"body":"nominally easier to teach other"},{"startTime":793.56,"endTime":796.74,"body":"people?"},{"startTime":797.47,"endTime":800.53,"body":"You get a tremendous benefit"},{"startTime":797.47,"endTime":800.53,"body":"from from that, I mean, you're"},{"startTime":800.53,"endTime":803.44,"body":"paying a lot less than you would"},{"startTime":800.53,"endTime":803.44,"body":"pay for a developer because"},{"startTime":803.44,"endTime":807.49,"body":"there's there's far greater"},{"startTime":803.44,"endTime":807.49,"body":"range of people who have the"},{"startTime":807.49,"endTime":812.05,"body":"core attributes of intelligence"},{"startTime":807.49,"endTime":812.05,"body":"and attention to detail that"},{"startTime":812.05,"endTime":817.06,"body":"they need for the job, but"},{"startTime":812.05,"endTime":817.06,"body":"haven't gone through five years"},{"startTime":817.06,"endTime":821.05,"body":"of programming, development and"},{"startTime":817.06,"endTime":821.05,"body":"experience. But I'd say though,"},{"startTime":821.05,"endTime":826.51,"body":"that the greater benefit is the"},{"startTime":821.05,"endTime":826.51,"body":"level of expertise in their"},{"startTime":826.51,"endTime":830.32,"body":"domain that they bring to the"},{"startTime":826.51,"endTime":830.32,"body":"task, because they're a citizen"},{"startTime":830.32,"endTime":833.02,"body":"developers are not typically"},{"startTime":830.32,"endTime":833.02,"body":"people that you've just hired"},{"startTime":833.02,"endTime":837.61,"body":"off the street, the parents"},{"startTime":833.02,"endTime":837.61,"body":"staff who have a particular"},{"startTime":837.61,"endTime":843.22,"body":"expertise in, you know, say the"},{"startTime":837.61,"endTime":843.22,"body":"configuration, the building of"},{"startTime":843.22,"endTime":850.69,"body":"machine tools, and they bring"},{"startTime":843.22,"endTime":850.69,"body":"that knowledge to the automation"},{"startTime":850.69,"endTime":853.42,"body":"that they want to implement for"},{"startTime":850.69,"endTime":853.42,"body":"the department."},{"startTime":854.86,"endTime":859.75,"body":"Whereas programmers have no such"},{"startTime":854.86,"endTime":859.75,"body":"experts have no such domain"},{"startTime":859.75,"endTime":862.9,"body":"expertise. And you have this"},{"startTime":859.75,"endTime":862.9,"body":"tremendous communication"},{"startTime":862.9,"endTime":869.38,"body":"challenge between the SMEs and"},{"startTime":862.9,"endTime":869.38,"body":"the developers and invariably"},{"startTime":869.41,"endTime":873.73,"body":"communication lapses in so that"},{"startTime":869.41,"endTime":873.73,"body":"what the developers finally"},{"startTime":873.73,"endTime":880.24,"body":"deliver, isn't close to what the"},{"startTime":873.73,"endTime":880.24,"body":"SMEs thought that was specified."},{"startTime":882.09,"endTime":884.64,"body":"That makes perfect sense. I've"},{"startTime":882.09,"endTime":884.64,"body":"certainly certainly seen that"},{"startTime":884.64,"endTime":888.63,"body":"once or twice. What kind of"},{"startTime":884.64,"endTime":888.63,"body":"support Do you need to provide"},{"startTime":888.63,"endTime":890.97,"body":"with the citizen developers? I'd"},{"startTime":888.63,"endTime":890.97,"body":"say you've got somebody who"},{"startTime":890.97,"endTime":893.73,"body":"appears to have good at that,"},{"startTime":890.97,"endTime":893.73,"body":"you know, the appropriate"},{"startTime":893.73,"endTime":897.48,"body":"attributes in terms of attention"},{"startTime":893.73,"endTime":897.48,"body":"to detail intelligence, logical"},{"startTime":897.48,"endTime":901.5,"body":"reasoning. How do they go from"},{"startTime":897.48,"endTime":901.5,"body":"there? Having the app in terms"},{"startTime":901.5,"endTime":905.76,"body":"of training them in a tool, but"},{"startTime":901.5,"endTime":905.76,"body":"also do they need? What what"},{"startTime":905.79,"endTime":909.12,"body":"what areas might you bring maybe"},{"startTime":905.79,"endTime":909.12,"body":"somebody with a more formal"},{"startTime":909.12,"endTime":912.54,"body":"engineering background in to"},{"startTime":909.12,"endTime":912.54,"body":"support them with here and now?"},{"startTime":913.65,"endTime":917.91,"body":"Well, they space, it then"},{"startTime":913.65,"endTime":917.91,"body":"essentially need to go through"},{"startTime":917.91,"endTime":923.1,"body":"training. You know, they need to"},{"startTime":917.91,"endTime":923.1,"body":"go through the two week training"},{"startTime":923.1,"endTime":926.94,"body":"course, to come fully up to"},{"startTime":923.1,"endTime":926.94,"body":"speed on the platform, the"},{"startTime":926.94,"endTime":931.65,"body":"capabilities and get some"},{"startTime":926.94,"endTime":931.65,"body":"practice using it. And you know,"},{"startTime":931.68,"endTime":935.46,"body":"two weeks may sound like a long"},{"startTime":931.68,"endTime":935.46,"body":"time. That's, that's not"},{"startTime":935.46,"endTime":941.1,"body":"trivial. But that compares with"},{"startTime":935.46,"endTime":941.1,"body":"yours, to become a professional"},{"startTime":941.1,"endTime":946.08,"body":"developer. And a tool which has"},{"startTime":941.1,"endTime":946.08,"body":"the sophistication to allow you"},{"startTime":946.08,"endTime":952.77,"body":"to build a CLM system supports"},{"startTime":946.08,"endTime":952.77,"body":"us the Monnet is necessarily a"},{"startTime":952.77,"endTime":959.22,"body":"very sophisticated tool, I"},{"startTime":952.77,"endTime":959.22,"body":"think, then you need experience,"},{"startTime":959.34,"endTime":963.69,"body":"and in the things that so come"},{"startTime":959.34,"endTime":963.69,"body":"for some people really naturally"},{"startTime":963.69,"endTime":968.43,"body":"and easily, and others just need"},{"startTime":963.69,"endTime":968.43,"body":"a lot more work and practice at"},{"startTime":968.43,"endTime":974.07,"body":"it. And data modeling, deciding"},{"startTime":968.43,"endTime":974.07,"body":"how to manage the data, what"},{"startTime":974.07,"endTime":979.02,"body":"fields what, to create an above"},{"startTime":974.07,"endTime":979.02,"body":"all, what the relationships are"},{"startTime":979.11,"endTime":982.14,"body":"between tables, that's something"},{"startTime":979.11,"endTime":982.14,"body":"that you require a bit of"},{"startTime":982.14,"endTime":987.39,"body":"experience. And it's an area"},{"startTime":982.14,"endTime":987.39,"body":"where it can help all the vendor"},{"startTime":987.39,"endTime":988.02,"body":"can help."},{"startTime":989.77,"endTime":992.14,"body":"So either way, you'd have"},{"startTime":989.77,"endTime":992.14,"body":"something so really, it's the"},{"startTime":992.14,"endTime":995.59,"body":"database modeling and the domain"},{"startTime":992.14,"endTime":995.59,"body":"modeling to be thoughtful about"},{"startTime":995.59,"endTime":998.83,"body":"the relationships and presumably"},{"startTime":995.59,"endTime":998.83,"body":"constraints and things like"},{"startTime":998.83,"endTime":999.19,"body":"that."},{"startTime":999.67,"endTime":1003.06,"body":"Yeah, you know, at least at"},{"startTime":999.67,"endTime":1003.06,"body":"least for high end, highly"},{"startTime":1003.06,"endTime":1006.42,"body":"complex applications, you know,"},{"startTime":1003.06,"endTime":1006.42,"body":"if you're just adding a new"},{"startTime":1006.42,"endTime":1012.09,"body":"table to an existing application"},{"startTime":1006.42,"endTime":1012.09,"body":"or some new fields, is very"},{"startTime":1012.09,"endTime":1012.84,"body":"straightforward."},{"startTime":1013.14,"endTime":1016.83,"body":"That makes sense. So it's"},{"startTime":1013.14,"endTime":1016.83,"body":"interesting, when you talk about"},{"startTime":1016.83,"endTime":1020.22,"body":"this, it makes me think, because"},{"startTime":1016.83,"endTime":1020.22,"body":"obviously, there's the well,"},{"startTime":1020.22,"endTime":1023.49,"body":"should we have our engineering"},{"startTime":1020.22,"endTime":1023.49,"body":"team building? Or should we use"},{"startTime":1023.49,"endTime":1027.27,"body":"a no code platform? Do you feel"},{"startTime":1023.49,"endTime":1027.27,"body":"that no code platforms are going"},{"startTime":1027.27,"endTime":1030.63,"body":"to start to infringe upon Hey,"},{"startTime":1027.27,"endTime":1030.63,"body":"should we use to take an example"},{"startTime":1030.63,"endTime":1032.7,"body":"you know, Salesforce, or my cat"},{"startTime":1030.63,"endTime":1032.7,"body":"or something that is"},{"startTime":1032.7,"endTime":1036.99,"body":"specifically tuned to a domain,"},{"startTime":1032.7,"endTime":1036.99,"body":"but still requires customization"},{"startTime":1036.99,"endTime":1040.77,"body":"within that domain? I are people"},{"startTime":1036.99,"endTime":1040.77,"body":"potentially going to be using no"},{"startTime":1040.77,"endTime":1044.01,"body":"code tools to build out their"},{"startTime":1040.77,"endTime":1044.01,"body":"their marketing hubs and their"},{"startTime":1044.01,"endTime":1047.34,"body":"their email marketing systems?"},{"startTime":1044.01,"endTime":1047.34,"body":"Whatever limits?"},{"startTime":1047.64,"endTime":1052.17,"body":"Oh, absolutely, they are. And in"},{"startTime":1047.64,"endTime":1052.17,"body":"fact, people are now developing"},{"startTime":1052.74,"endTime":1057.63,"body":"no code layers on top of"},{"startTime":1052.74,"endTime":1057.63,"body":"products like Salesforce, to"},{"startTime":1057.63,"endTime":1061.65,"body":"provide exactly this, this kind"},{"startTime":1057.63,"endTime":1061.65,"body":"of flexibility. Now, I have to"},{"startTime":1061.65,"endTime":1065.76,"body":"say that that's an extremely"},{"startTime":1061.65,"endTime":1065.76,"body":"challenging thing to do. And,"},{"startTime":1068.0,"endTime":1071.39,"body":"you know, there's, there's a"},{"startTime":1068.0,"endTime":1071.39,"body":"limit to the extent to which you"},{"startTime":1071.39,"endTime":1076.22,"body":"can lair no code on top of a"},{"startTime":1071.39,"endTime":1076.22,"body":"system that wasn't designed from"},{"startTime":1076.22,"endTime":1080.54,"body":"it from the get go. But it"},{"startTime":1076.22,"endTime":1080.54,"body":"certainly in the fact that"},{"startTime":1080.54,"endTime":1084.17,"body":"they're even trying reflects the"},{"startTime":1080.54,"endTime":1084.17,"body":"level of demand at the market."},{"startTime":1085.52,"endTime":1088.97,"body":"Is this primarily for solving"},{"startTime":1085.52,"endTime":1088.97,"body":"departmental problems like in"},{"startTime":1088.97,"endTime":1092.18,"body":"marketing, we need this in"},{"startTime":1088.97,"endTime":1092.18,"body":"operations, we need to track our"},{"startTime":1092.18,"endTime":1096.83,"body":"trucks and their locations? Or"},{"startTime":1092.18,"endTime":1096.83,"body":"is it potentially also something"},{"startTime":1096.83,"endTime":1101.12,"body":"that could be used by you know,"},{"startTime":1096.83,"endTime":1101.12,"body":"for your core corporate web"},{"startTime":1101.12,"endTime":1103.94,"body":"applications, especially if"},{"startTime":1101.12,"endTime":1103.94,"body":"you're a real product based"},{"startTime":1103.94,"endTime":1104.48,"body":"company?"},{"startTime":1105.53,"endTime":1109.22,"body":"Oh, it's something which"},{"startTime":1105.53,"endTime":1109.22,"body":"stretches across departments and"},{"startTime":1109.52,"endTime":1111.14,"body":"across the whole enterprise."},{"startTime":1112.2,"endTime":1118.11,"body":"And, above all, it allows"},{"startTime":1112.2,"endTime":1118.11,"body":"different departments to build"},{"startTime":1118.14,"endTime":1122.04,"body":"modules and functionalities on"},{"startTime":1118.14,"endTime":1122.04,"body":"the same core system. And to"},{"startTime":1122.04,"endTime":1126.21,"body":"build them in such a way that"},{"startTime":1122.04,"endTime":1126.21,"body":"they're integrated by that by"},{"startTime":1126.21,"endTime":1131.94,"body":"design by default, rather than"},{"startTime":1126.21,"endTime":1131.94,"body":"having to be glued together with"},{"startTime":1132.72,"endTime":1135.27,"body":"baling wire and to get bubble"},{"startTime":1132.72,"endTime":1135.27,"body":"gum."},{"startTime":1136.08,"endTime":1139.65,"body":"Now, usually, when a new"},{"startTime":1136.08,"endTime":1139.65,"body":"technology comes out, or newer,"},{"startTime":1139.65,"endTime":1143.55,"body":"I say new, I mean, no code is"},{"startTime":1139.65,"endTime":1143.55,"body":"4chan was supposed to be no"},{"startTime":1143.55,"endTime":1147.3,"body":"code, even even business people"},{"startTime":1143.55,"endTime":1147.3,"body":"could write it. Obviously, it's,"},{"startTime":1147.33,"endTime":1152.01,"body":"it's come a little bit since"},{"startTime":1147.33,"endTime":1152.01,"body":"then. But as a, as people start"},{"startTime":1152.01,"endTime":1157.68,"body":"to adopt a new way of solving a"},{"startTime":1152.01,"endTime":1157.68,"body":"problem, it often appears to be"},{"startTime":1157.71,"endTime":1160.92,"body":"the solution to everything. And"},{"startTime":1157.71,"endTime":1160.92,"body":"then over time, it's like, well,"},{"startTime":1161.19,"endTime":1165.27,"body":"there are some sweet spots it"},{"startTime":1161.19,"endTime":1165.27,"body":"should probably start with. So I"},{"startTime":1165.27,"endTime":1167.43,"body":"guess I have two separate"},{"startTime":1165.27,"endTime":1167.43,"body":"questions. And the first is"},{"startTime":1167.43,"endTime":1170.43,"body":"going to be Are there any sweet"},{"startTime":1167.43,"endTime":1170.43,"body":"spots which are particularly"},{"startTime":1170.43,"endTime":1170.94,"body":"well,"},{"startTime":1172.64,"endTime":1175.61,"body":"well aligned with it. And then"},{"startTime":1172.64,"endTime":1175.61,"body":"secondly, Are there areas where"},{"startTime":1175.61,"endTime":1178.16,"body":"you know, you might not want to"},{"startTime":1175.61,"endTime":1178.16,"body":"go here such as, you know,"},{"startTime":1178.43,"endTime":1182.99,"body":"gigabytes of data transfer or or"},{"startTime":1178.43,"endTime":1182.99,"body":"super complex real time systems?"},{"startTime":1184.4,"endTime":1189.86,"body":"It doesn't there are no problems"},{"startTime":1184.4,"endTime":1189.86,"body":"with with no code systems"},{"startTime":1189.86,"endTime":1193.88,"body":"handling gigabytes or in our"},{"startTime":1189.86,"endTime":1193.88,"body":"case, terabytes and potentially"},{"startTime":1193.88,"endTime":1200.12,"body":"petabytes of data. The challenge"},{"startTime":1193.88,"endTime":1200.12,"body":"is more in terms of The"},{"startTime":1200.12,"endTime":1206.03,"body":"flexibility of the GUI, in a no,"},{"startTime":1200.12,"endTime":1206.03,"body":"no code systems tend to have"},{"startTime":1206.06,"endTime":1210.38,"body":"gooeys that lock in that for a"},{"startTime":1206.06,"endTime":1210.38,"body":"given system, the GUI tends to"},{"startTime":1210.38,"endTime":1217.28,"body":"look the same. And this is great"},{"startTime":1210.38,"endTime":1217.28,"body":"for building web applications"},{"startTime":1217.28,"endTime":1221.93,"body":"for building b2b applications,"},{"startTime":1217.28,"endTime":1221.93,"body":"where it's the data, which is"},{"startTime":1221.96,"endTime":1227.69,"body":"core, not the interface. It's"},{"startTime":1221.96,"endTime":1227.69,"body":"not great for building"},{"startTime":1227.78,"endTime":1229.73,"body":"applications such as Photoshop,"},{"startTime":1230.89,"endTime":1235.3,"body":"you could not build Photoshop"},{"startTime":1230.89,"endTime":1235.3,"body":"within the Agile framework."},{"startTime":1235.42,"endTime":1235.84,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1235.87,"endTime":1239.74,"body":"And, you know, in general, I'd"},{"startTime":1235.87,"endTime":1239.74,"body":"say if you're building something"},{"startTime":1239.74,"endTime":1247.21,"body":"with where the the key point,"},{"startTime":1239.74,"endTime":1247.21,"body":"that the kind of primary focus"},{"startTime":1247.27,"endTime":1251.83,"body":"of the application is the"},{"startTime":1247.27,"endTime":1251.83,"body":"sophistication of the GUI,"},{"startTime":1252.04,"endTime":1255.07,"body":"rather than the back end"},{"startTime":1252.04,"endTime":1255.07,"body":"processing that that system"},{"startTime":1255.07,"endTime":1258.25,"body":"provides, then no code is more"},{"startTime":1255.07,"endTime":1258.25,"body":"of a challenge."},{"startTime":1259.44,"endTime":1263.19,"body":"The other area is, of course,"},{"startTime":1259.44,"endTime":1263.19,"body":"into integration between"},{"startTime":1263.19,"endTime":1267.87,"body":"systems. If you're integrating"},{"startTime":1263.19,"endTime":1267.87,"body":"with some other third party"},{"startTime":1267.87,"endTime":1272.31,"body":"system, you're typically going"},{"startTime":1267.87,"endTime":1272.31,"body":"to use an API to do that. And"},{"startTime":1272.34,"endTime":1273.87,"body":"API's imply coding."},{"startTime":1274.68,"endTime":1278.16,"body":"Got it. That makes sense? And"},{"startTime":1274.68,"endTime":1278.16,"body":"then Have you noticed particular"},{"startTime":1278.16,"endTime":1282.42,"body":"sweet spots, things? Which"},{"startTime":1278.16,"endTime":1282.42,"body":"commonly people are building?"},{"startTime":1282.45,"endTime":1284.91,"body":"Like what is some of the"},{"startTime":1282.45,"endTime":1284.91,"body":"examples to get somebody's mind"},{"startTime":1284.91,"endTime":1285.39,"body":"going?"},{"startTime":1286.89,"endTime":1291.06,"body":"Contract Lifecycle Management,"},{"startTime":1286.89,"endTime":1291.06,"body":"the creation, the management,"},{"startTime":1291.09,"endTime":1296.28,"body":"the flow of contracts within an"},{"startTime":1291.09,"endTime":1296.28,"body":"organization, support"},{"startTime":1296.28,"endTime":1302.85,"body":"automation, for both traditional"},{"startTime":1296.28,"endTime":1302.85,"body":"support and ITIL, service first"},{"startTime":1302.85,"endTime":1307.89,"body":"level support? A great examples."},{"startTime":1302.85,"endTime":1307.89,"body":"Yeah, that's great to be"},{"startTime":1307.89,"endTime":1312.84,"body":"applications where data"},{"startTime":1307.89,"endTime":1312.84,"body":"integrity, back end processing"},{"startTime":1312.84,"endTime":1317.82,"body":"with rules, automation, and"},{"startTime":1312.84,"endTime":1317.82,"body":"databases with terabytes of"},{"startTime":1317.82,"endTime":1320.88,"body":"data, great applications for the"},{"startTime":1317.82,"endTime":1320.88,"body":"technology"},{"startTime":1321.39,"endTime":1325.35,"body":"Makes perfect sense. Some of the"},{"startTime":1321.39,"endTime":1325.35,"body":"other things that sometimes come"},{"startTime":1325.35,"endTime":1331.02,"body":"up are around how you think"},{"startTime":1325.35,"endTime":1331.02,"body":"about things like multiple"},{"startTime":1331.02,"endTime":1334.44,"body":"developers, and automated"},{"startTime":1331.02,"endTime":1334.44,"body":"testing. So maybe you didn't one"},{"startTime":1334.44,"endTime":1338.28,"body":"at a time. How does"},{"startTime":1334.44,"endTime":1338.28,"body":"collaboration work? Because"},{"startTime":1338.28,"endTime":1340.62,"body":"obviously, I can a software"},{"startTime":1338.28,"endTime":1340.62,"body":"development world, it's pretty"},{"startTime":1340.62,"endTime":1343.26,"body":"straightforward, you'll"},{"startTime":1340.62,"endTime":1343.26,"body":"typically create a branch off of"},{"startTime":1343.26,"endTime":1347.04,"body":"main, you'll do your work there,"},{"startTime":1343.26,"endTime":1347.04,"body":"you'll create a pull request,"},{"startTime":1347.04,"endTime":1350.07,"body":"and then you'll merge it in once"},{"startTime":1347.04,"endTime":1350.07,"body":"you've got some eyes on it, push"},{"startTime":1350.07,"endTime":1352.5,"body":"it to production, and then maybe"},{"startTime":1350.07,"endTime":1352.5,"body":"behind a feature flag, and then"},{"startTime":1352.5,"endTime":1355.8,"body":"deploy it, which is incredibly"},{"startTime":1352.5,"endTime":1355.8,"body":"difficult, slow, tedious and"},{"startTime":1355.8,"endTime":1359.7,"body":"complex. But it allows larger"},{"startTime":1355.8,"endTime":1359.7,"body":"teams to collaborate on a single"},{"startTime":1359.7,"endTime":1363.6,"body":"app. What does that typically"},{"startTime":1359.7,"endTime":1363.6,"body":"look like in no code platforms?"},{"startTime":1364.44,"endTime":1368.07,"body":"On the no code platform, you may"},{"startTime":1364.44,"endTime":1368.07,"body":"have multiple developers or"},{"startTime":1368.07,"endTime":1372.48,"body":"multi citizen developers, or IT"},{"startTime":1368.07,"endTime":1372.48,"body":"folks logged into the system"},{"startTime":1372.48,"endTime":1377.01,"body":"concurrently. All of them,"},{"startTime":1372.48,"endTime":1377.01,"body":"making changes to the system,"},{"startTime":1377.31,"endTime":1379.89,"body":"adding fields to different"},{"startTime":1377.31,"endTime":1379.89,"body":"tables, changing fields,"},{"startTime":1379.89,"endTime":1385.59,"body":"configurations, etc. and the"},{"startTime":1379.89,"endTime":1385.59,"body":"backend database manages all of"},{"startTime":1385.59,"endTime":1390.12,"body":"this without a problem. The"},{"startTime":1385.59,"endTime":1390.12,"body":"interesting challenge, then is"},{"startTime":1390.15,"endTime":1393.75,"body":"then how do you move and of"},{"startTime":1390.15,"endTime":1393.75,"body":"course, you can then test on"},{"startTime":1393.75,"endTime":1396.39,"body":"that platform, ensure that the"},{"startTime":1393.75,"endTime":1396.39,"body":"new functionality works"},{"startTime":1396.39,"endTime":1399.66,"body":"properly, you then have the"},{"startTime":1396.39,"endTime":1399.66,"body":"challenge of moving those"},{"startTime":1399.66,"endTime":1403.11,"body":"changes from the test system,"},{"startTime":1399.66,"endTime":1403.11,"body":"the dev system, to the"},{"startTime":1403.11,"endTime":1408.51,"body":"production system. And there, we"},{"startTime":1403.11,"endTime":1408.51,"body":"employ a technology called sync,"},{"startTime":1408.69,"endTime":1413.28,"body":"which allows the developers to"},{"startTime":1408.69,"endTime":1413.28,"body":"tag the entities that they want"},{"startTime":1413.28,"endTime":1417.21,"body":"to transfer and say, okay, you"},{"startTime":1413.28,"endTime":1417.21,"body":"know, in this table, all the"},{"startTime":1417.21,"endTime":1421.35,"body":"changes, I'm not going to bother"},{"startTime":1417.21,"endTime":1421.35,"body":"going through each of them, just"},{"startTime":1421.35,"endTime":1424.77,"body":"take all of the changes in this"},{"startTime":1421.35,"endTime":1424.77,"body":"table, and include it in the"},{"startTime":1424.77,"endTime":1429.9,"body":"transfer set. This table over"},{"startTime":1424.77,"endTime":1429.9,"body":"here, only take these three"},{"startTime":1429.9,"endTime":1435.87,"body":"fields, this table, take these"},{"startTime":1429.9,"endTime":1435.87,"body":"workflows. Okay, that's what I'm"},{"startTime":1435.87,"endTime":1440.91,"body":"transferring, now, export it to"},{"startTime":1435.87,"endTime":1440.91,"body":"mouse clicks important on the"},{"startTime":1440.91,"endTime":1444.21,"body":"other system. And those changes"},{"startTime":1440.91,"endTime":1444.21,"body":"are synchronized."},{"startTime":1444.96,"endTime":1449.4,"body":"Nice. And then you mentioned"},{"startTime":1444.96,"endTime":1449.4,"body":"testing, how do you think about"},{"startTime":1449.43,"endTime":1452.88,"body":"a, again, in a custom software"},{"startTime":1449.43,"endTime":1452.88,"body":"development world? I come from"},{"startTime":1452.88,"endTime":1454.89,"body":"the world of, you know, test"},{"startTime":1452.88,"endTime":1454.89,"body":"driven development, you write"},{"startTime":1454.89,"endTime":1457.89,"body":"unit tests, you have acceptance"},{"startTime":1454.89,"endTime":1457.89,"body":"tests, to make sure that you"},{"startTime":1457.89,"endTime":1462.24,"body":"don't introduce regressions by"},{"startTime":1457.89,"endTime":1462.24,"body":"accident. Do you feel like there"},{"startTime":1462.24,"endTime":1466.29,"body":"is a comparable testing story or"},{"startTime":1462.24,"endTime":1466.29,"body":"simply not a need for comparable"},{"startTime":1466.29,"endTime":1467.22,"body":"testing story?"},{"startTime":1468.29,"endTime":1471.74,"body":"There's certainly a need for it,"},{"startTime":1468.29,"endTime":1471.74,"body":"because you can make if make"},{"startTime":1471.77,"endTime":1475.82,"body":"errors when you're configuring"},{"startTime":1471.77,"endTime":1475.82,"body":"the system. And exactly the same"},{"startTime":1475.82,"endTime":1479.96,"body":"ways you can make errors when"},{"startTime":1475.82,"endTime":1479.96,"body":"you're coding the system. You"},{"startTime":1479.96,"endTime":1483.59,"body":"know, you add if you add a new"},{"startTime":1479.96,"endTime":1483.59,"body":"choice field, you give it the"},{"startTime":1483.59,"endTime":1488.09,"body":"wrong name. Or you should have"},{"startTime":1483.59,"endTime":1488.09,"body":"added two choice fields, but you"},{"startTime":1488.09,"endTime":1492.62,"body":"only added one, those arrows. I"},{"startTime":1488.09,"endTime":1492.62,"body":"mean, they're not programming"},{"startTime":1492.62,"endTime":1496.88,"body":"bugs Exactly. But they have the"},{"startTime":1492.62,"endTime":1496.88,"body":"same net effect. So yes, there's"},{"startTime":1496.88,"endTime":1500.0,"body":"certainly a need for casting"},{"startTime":1496.88,"endTime":1500.0,"body":"them happily. They're automated"},{"startTime":1500.0,"endTime":1500.18,"body":"If you're"},{"startTime":1500.22,"endTime":1504.51,"body":"testing tools now, so that you"},{"startTime":1500.22,"endTime":1504.51,"body":"can, you know, essentially"},{"startTime":1504.51,"endTime":1507.81,"body":"script a set of user actions"},{"startTime":1504.51,"endTime":1507.81,"body":"which occur within the"},{"startTime":1507.81,"endTime":1508.8,"body":"interface."},{"startTime":1510.51,"endTime":1513.6,"body":"In effect, you're recording the"},{"startTime":1510.51,"endTime":1513.6,"body":"most place that the user is"},{"startTime":1513.6,"endTime":1518.34,"body":"going. And you're recording the"},{"startTime":1513.6,"endTime":1518.34,"body":"response given by the system to"},{"startTime":1518.34,"endTime":1523.23,"body":"those clicks, and you just you"},{"startTime":1518.34,"endTime":1523.23,"body":"ensure that they work after the"},{"startTime":1523.23,"endTime":1525.6,"body":"upgrade just as they work before"},{"startTime":1523.23,"endTime":1525.6,"body":"the upgrade."},{"startTime":1525.9,"endTime":1530.1,"body":"Got it. So it's not quite a full"},{"startTime":1525.9,"endTime":1530.1,"body":"continuous integration flow yet,"},{"startTime":1530.1,"endTime":1534.36,"body":"but at least you can have the"},{"startTime":1530.1,"endTime":1534.36,"body":"scripted tests running. So you"},{"startTime":1534.36,"endTime":1536.97,"body":"don't have to go go and click"},{"startTime":1534.36,"endTime":1536.97,"body":"through every screen to make"},{"startTime":1536.97,"endTime":1539.19,"body":"sure you didn't just break"},{"startTime":1536.97,"endTime":1539.19,"body":"anything that use the user"},{"startTime":1539.19,"endTime":1539.76,"body":"stable."},{"startTime":1540.71,"endTime":1545.42,"body":"Well, it's it's, it's as"},{"startTime":1540.71,"endTime":1545.42,"body":"automated as it can be, you"},{"startTime":1545.42,"endTime":1549.5,"body":"know, the, the no code platform"},{"startTime":1545.42,"endTime":1549.5,"body":"guarantees that what you do what"},{"startTime":1549.5,"endTime":1554.42,"body":"you've done, works, that you're"},{"startTime":1549.5,"endTime":1554.42,"body":"not going to get a blue screen"},{"startTime":1554.42,"endTime":1557.69,"body":"of death that you know, the"},{"startTime":1554.42,"endTime":1557.69,"body":"system is going to function."},{"startTime":1558.2,"endTime":1562.97,"body":"What it can't guarantee is that"},{"startTime":1558.2,"endTime":1562.97,"body":"it works right. What it can't"},{"startTime":1562.97,"endTime":1566.66,"body":"guarantee is that you have made"},{"startTime":1562.97,"endTime":1566.66,"body":"the correct changes."},{"startTime":1566.69,"endTime":1567.32,"body":"Right"},{"startTime":1567.44,"endTime":1569.63,"body":"And that's what the automated"},{"startTime":1567.44,"endTime":1569.63,"body":"testing can do."},{"startTime":1570.77,"endTime":1575.99,"body":"Makes perfect sense. And so I"},{"startTime":1570.77,"endTime":1575.99,"body":"guess, bringing it back round as"},{"startTime":1575.99,"endTime":1580.58,"body":"a CTO, how should I think about"},{"startTime":1575.99,"endTime":1580.58,"body":"this? How should I think about?"},{"startTime":1581.33,"endTime":1583.76,"body":"Do I just wait for one of the"},{"startTime":1581.33,"endTime":1583.76,"body":"departments to come to me?"},{"startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1587.21,"body":"Should I like get a couple"},{"startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1587.21,"body":"people to start kicking the"},{"startTime":1587.21,"endTime":1590.84,"body":"tires on different systems? How"},{"startTime":1587.21,"endTime":1590.84,"body":"do I go about formulating a"},{"startTime":1590.84,"endTime":1594.47,"body":"strategy for this? So when I"},{"startTime":1590.84,"endTime":1594.47,"body":"hear from the contract team,"},{"startTime":1594.47,"endTime":1597.95,"body":"that they want to go try to do"},{"startTime":1594.47,"endTime":1597.95,"body":"something themselves? We can"},{"startTime":1597.95,"endTime":1599.42,"body":"give them some good advice?"},{"startTime":1600.32,"endTime":1603.47,"body":"Well, I think I think the key is"},{"startTime":1600.32,"endTime":1603.47,"body":"in the last comment when you"},{"startTime":1603.47,"endTime":1607.34,"body":"hear from the contract team,"},{"startTime":1603.47,"endTime":1607.34,"body":"because the way to go about this"},{"startTime":1607.37,"endTime":1611.51,"body":"isn't to say, Oh, I'm gonna find"},{"startTime":1607.37,"endTime":1611.51,"body":"some cool new technology and"},{"startTime":1611.51,"endTime":1614.87,"body":"then find some way to use it."},{"startTime":1611.51,"endTime":1614.87,"body":"Rather, it's to look at the"},{"startTime":1614.87,"endTime":1619.13,"body":"problems that your organization"},{"startTime":1614.87,"endTime":1619.13,"body":"is facing, and figure out what"},{"startTime":1619.13,"endTime":1622.46,"body":"technology would be appropriate"},{"startTime":1619.13,"endTime":1622.46,"body":"for that particular challenge."},{"startTime":1622.73,"endTime":1627.05,"body":"So if the contract team is"},{"startTime":1622.73,"endTime":1627.05,"body":"asking for something, then go"},{"startTime":1627.05,"endTime":1631.94,"body":"out and look and find out what"},{"startTime":1627.05,"endTime":1631.94,"body":"solutions can best meet the meet"},{"startTime":1631.94,"endTime":1635.36,"body":"the needs of the contract team."},{"startTime":1631.94,"endTime":1635.36,"body":"Then consider Well, what other"},{"startTime":1635.36,"endTime":1639.38,"body":"departments are saying that they"},{"startTime":1635.36,"endTime":1639.38,"body":"need something? Is there a"},{"startTime":1639.38,"endTime":1641.96,"body":"solution which can address"},{"startTime":1639.38,"endTime":1641.96,"body":"multiple needs in my"},{"startTime":1641.96,"endTime":1646.16,"body":"organization? Or is there a"},{"startTime":1641.96,"endTime":1646.16,"body":"solution that can be used to"},{"startTime":1646.16,"endTime":1651.47,"body":"address contracting right now,"},{"startTime":1646.16,"endTime":1651.47,"body":"but then scale and expand"},{"startTime":1651.47,"endTime":1655.25,"body":"seamlessly to address multiple"},{"startTime":1651.47,"endTime":1655.25,"body":"needs after that initial"},{"startTime":1655.25,"endTime":1655.94,"body":"deployments?"},{"startTime":1657.01,"endTime":1660.31,"body":"That's great Colin, well thank"},{"startTime":1657.01,"endTime":1660.31,"body":"you so much for taking the time"},{"startTime":1660.31,"endTime":1661.21,"body":"to chat today."},{"startTime":1662.5,"endTime":1667.06,"body":"Well, thank you, Peter. It's"},{"startTime":1662.5,"endTime":1667.06,"body":"been an absolute pleasure. And"},{"startTime":1667.06,"endTime":1669.1,"body":"that's awesome to hear. If you"},{"startTime":1667.06,"endTime":1669.1,"body":"want to stop"}]}