Episode 1: A Call To Men

A Call to Men educates men and boys all over the world on healthy, respectful manhood.  At its core, A Call to Men is a violence prevention organization and respected leader on issues of manhood, male socialization and its intersection with violence, and preventing violence against all women, girls, and those at the margins of the margins. Josué Argüelles, the organization's Director of Youth Initiatives, joins Jesse Colman on Miking Change to talk about their mission and the role masculinity plays on men and boys around the world. 

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Josué Argüelles, Jesse

Josué Argüelles  00:00

We live in a society that tells our boys that no means try harder, right that when a girl woman tells them know that they need to try harder, right that they need to step up their game and that's not the world we want to create.

Jesse  00:25

Hey Changemaker, my name is Jesse Colman, and you're listening to Miking Change, a podcast that puts a microphone to the stories that matter. Today, I'm joined by Josué Argüelles, the director of youth initiatives for A Call to Men, a nonprofit that works to educate men and boys all over the world on healthy, respectful manhood. Josu is responsible for a program called youth act, a group of young leaders that are actively committed to promoting healthy masculinity, healthy relationships, preventing gender based violence, and creating a better world for all that includes women, girls, boys, trans LGBTQ and non binary people. He partners with communities to advance the work of engaging youth leaders in violence prevention efforts. Hi, Josué. How's it going today?

Josué Argüelles  01:22

Doing well? How are you, Jesse?

Jesse  01:24

I'm doing good. Thank you so much for joining. Absolutely. You work for an organization called a call to men. Tell me what you guys do there.

01:36

So I am the director of youth initiatives at A Call to Men and we are a national organization that really has the focus on having these conversations with male identified folks around healthy manhood, healthy masculinity and moving us right as male identified people...to live in our most authentic way. Which to us, that means that we have to center the voices and the experience and the safety of women and girls and those that recite in the margins of the margins. Because we do believe you know that we want to see a world where men and boys are loving and respectful. And that women girls in all those that recite in the margins of the the margins are valued and safe.

Jesse  02:29

And you guys coined a term called a Man Box. What's that?

Josué Argüelles  02:34

Yeah, the man box. So that's the way we talk about the matte box really, is this idea really, right? This creation of these really rigid notions of masculinity, right of manhood, like, how men are taught to navigate the world, how men are taught to be a man, right? And like even asking the question, Well, what does that even mean to be a man, right? And so we believe that the matte box are these really rigid notions that, you know, in a way hinder us from being our full authentic selves from being able to experience the full spectrum of the human experience, right, and human emotion. And so the man box is really a construct, right? And that holds men hostage, in terms of like, you know, the teachings that you yourself have probably had from your own parents or even like men in your life, right? That tell us not to show emotion and tell us to man up that tell us to, you know, really perform masculinity that we as a society, right, have said, this is how men show up in the world, right? And this is the world that men play, right? That you have to be a protector, that you have to be a provider that you have to be strong, they can't show weakness, right? So all these fall under the man box. And so our work is really to get men to break outside of that man box and live a little bit more authentically.

Jesse  04:10

Yeah, I recently had my wife and I had our car was stolen. And I have done a lot of my own work trying to like figure out how do I get outside that that man box like how do I break free and i've you know, several times in my life, gone in and really evaluated that. I wrote my senior thesis on the masculine identity and the ability to express vulnerability and how vulnerability was a means to connection. But this car got stolen and suddenly I am back to like, that protector like identity. Where I feel completely emasculated like I didn't. I didn't do enough to keep our things and our property safe. And so I find it interesting that no matter how much you do this work, it seems to continue to come back into my life. And it's a constant thing. How do you navigate that?

Josué Argüelles  05:29

Yeah, and I hear you on that experience, right? I think, really what I've learned in my journey, is that it's not black and white, right? That it's not just like, You're toxic, right? Or you folks use right, toxic masculinity, or that you're not toxic. And I think, really, it's about understanding the different complexities and the fact that many things can be true at once, right? So the way that I've come to understand it, and the way that a Call to Men frames it, right, that this is not an indictment on manhood, it's an invitation for men to the table, right? to really let unpack, Let's peel back those layers, right? Like an onion, Let's peel back those layers of what we think, you know, we're supposed to be playing in our role as men, right? versus what we as a society have been tired, right? And we call that the collective socialization of manhood, right? That there's these unspoken rules and and these rigid notions, right, of how we show up. And so for me, it's really understanding, you know, that there's absolutely beautiful things about being men, right. But there's also some really twisted stuff, right, that we've been taught that we uphold. And not to say that, you know, when I say like that, you have to be strong that you have to be protecter or a provider. Not saying that those are bad things about, you know, that anybody can can embody right and carry, not just men. Because I think at the end of the day, we all do want to protect and provide for our loved ones, right? Or for our family or for our community. But it's really, like thinking a little bit more critically, that like, well, am I protecting, am I providing at the expense of someone else? Right? And when I say that, we think, too, you know, when when the dad tells his son, you know, like, I'm going away for this trip. And so, you know, you you look after things, because you're the man of the house now, right? And so those kind of teachings, you know, that that is responsibility in a way. But when you're saying that, you have to realize that you're doing it at the expense of the women, right? expense of the mom, that she's not in charge of the house while the dad's away, right? Why that she must be the man of the house, because she must need a man in the house. Right? And so we had to really think about, like, you know, what, can be looked at as a beautiful moment between a dad and a son, but it's happening the expense of the mom, right? And so I think, in doing our own work, you know, to promote healthy manhood, we really have to think about the things that we say, the way that we behave, because so much of this, we're just operating on remote control, right? We're just doing and saying, what we think what is expected of us as men, right? And so I think that those complexities, right, we have to really understand that and define manhood and masculinity as something that is just living more authentically, right? And not a performance, because it is performance, right? Like, I can tell you, I still walk into a room that can be very hyper masculine. And my body kind of like, puffs up a little bit, right? Because I know, like, I need to navigate the room, that maybe when I was younger than bullied, it was for reasons of safety. But then our body remembers that right? Our body remembers that and continues to act in that same way. And so, you know, I've had to take in moments of pause, I'm like, Oh, what's that about? Like, what, what? What's going on there? Right? Because it's so deeply rooted. Right? And even as someone who does this work, you know, every day 24 seven, I have my moments where I'm like, oh, what was that about? Like, why did you just do that? Right? or Why are you? Why are you responding in this way? Right? Because, yeah, we live in a patriarchal society, and though I may not uphold a patriarchy or sexism or misogyny? In certain spaces? It's still upholding me, right? Because as a male identified male presenting person cisgendered. Male, I know that it's upholding, right? And so I have to recognize that. Can you

Jesse  10:17

give us a definition of patriarchy? We hear that word a lot? And I'm not sure it's like, exactly clear what it is and how far reaching it really is to.

10:28

Yeah, it's living in a male dominated society, right? a society where systems and structures uphold, in particular cisgendered male identified folks, right? So you walk into a room, and I know that my voice is going to be heard differently. I know that folks are going to respond to me differently than they would if it was a woman or girl or somebody that resides in the margins, right? They're not going to have that same privilege, or access or even given the time, right, so. And patriarchy really is about this. The system, again, that I say like, we may be working really hard to dismantle it and not uphold it. But it still upholds us. Right, as men, it upholds us. And even though we're doing the work to promote healthy manhood, we need to recognize that because that's the only way that we're going to be able to dismantle this patriarchy system. Right? And so that we all are really on the same page about promoting gender equity.

Jesse  11:40

And let's talk a little bit about your own journey with the man box if you're okay with it. Yeah, absolutely. How How is that relationship evolved over time.

11:53

So I'll tell you this, right, as someone who was born and raised in Southern California, and comes from a family with, you know, I have a lot of uncles, I have my dad, my grandfather, my brother. And so I definitely grew up in a very sexist environment, right with the way that I was told as a boy, right, that I needed to behave of things that I told I could do or could not do, right. And that I was giving more access to like, responsibility or giving more access to, you know, quote, unquote, freedom, right, freedom to like, go places, and do things. And, you know, take certain positions and titles. That is something that, you know, when I started my work at a call to men, I realize how much of this was just so embedded in me. And how much of it had prevented me from thriving, right? Once I started my work at a call to man, I also started my own healing journey, which I've been in for, you know, over three years now. And a lot of that journey has been, you know, that, as men and boys when we're told to, you know, man up, toughen up, you know, suck it up, not cry, you realize that those things are like armor, right? Like you put on these, like armors. And they provide a false sense of safety for a minute. And then what happens is that we hold on to that armor, and it just hardens, right? it hardens, and it just becomes part of us. And so my own journey has been, well, how do I peel that armor off? Right? Because they're things that maybe helped me survive at some point, right? Especially as you know, in my teenage years, I came out as queer too, right? So even though I was navigating the world now, as a queer identified individual, I also saw that my masculinity was constantly like challenge or invalidated, or that I was just invalidated as a person, right? Like, people should not exist. And that's a message that, you know, is, you know, an actual reality for a lot of queer folks in this world. It's like you're constantly living in a state in the systems that tell you, you should not exist. You don't belong here. Right? So what that armor did, again, might have provided some safety, but now it's a segue, well, I don't need it to survive anymore because I want to thrive. Right? And so once I started doing that work, it just goes in line with doing this work with other men, right and why I see such a connection and need for other men to do their own healing work, right? Because I think when like when I say or when I hear how manhood, really, I think it's a, it's a journey of healing, right? That we, as men have so much healing to do. Right, as individuals, as a group, as brothers, you know, as a, as a society, we have a lot of healing to do. Right. And I think that's why I'm able to do this work. Because you, you know, we definitely go into a lot of hyper masculine spaces, and you definitely get a lot of pushback. And that were the emasculating men, and that which, you know, switching it all up, and why can't we just be like, how we were taught, you know, and so, and a lot of that has to do is because we are so deeply wounded, that we see someone telling us to live authentically as a threat. Right? When it's really I'm asking you to heal, and I'm asking you to heal with me. So, you know, this work has definitely helped me in that process. And in that, and also in this, I think, to like my dad, right, and I think to like my, my grandfather. And those some of the things that they did really hurt me, and were very problematic. I still look back to them with with empathy, right? Because I think, what was the armor that they were wearing, that they were probably never given the chance to take off? Right? What's those pieces of armor that they've never been able to shut off that they still carry?

16:31

So I think that's one of the most beautiful things actually, about this journey for me, is being able to look to the men in my life, but also just men in my community. And, you know, look, look at them for accountability, but also with love, right, that I'm still holding out left for them, right? Because I know there's hope for men, and I know there's hope for men, if they start healing.

Jesse  16:57

Are there any like moments in your childhood that stand up that was like a clear message of, of the man box of like, that he would be willing to share?

17:11

You mean like, how did I experience in my inbox growing up?

Jesse  17:15

Well, I mean, like, for me, there was one one moment that really stood out and I was I was at a friend's funeral I was like 15 at the time, and I was really mourning this friend and I felt like I couldn't cry like the whole the whole funeral instead of like doing the healthy thing and be in mourning for the person I lost that I loved. Hold on, I was just focused on biting my upper lip and not letting the tears flow and I was lucky enough to come to the car and mentioned this to my father and he's like cry It's okay to cry here then I just let it all out and bald, but that for me was like a very defining moment of like, despite having that that male role model that said it's okay to cry like I'm still in a society surrounded by messaging that tells me otherwise. And so I'm curious for you in your experience growing up and you know, Southern California like are Were there any moments like that that really shaped your your journey with with manhood

18:37

Yeah, I mean I think back to you know my relationship with my grandfather right? He was very tall he's very you know, what they would call rugged you know, had come out here with my parents, you know, my parents and my family are from Mexico from what I heard right? So when they migrated here and we were born My grandfather was you know, in my life a lot when we were little right because he did some of the caretaking for me when my parents were both at work so I do cherish my relationship with my grandfather a lot but he was also very you know, very and I'll quote this because when we say like traditional it's just like well what do we mean when we say that right? When we like my my, my dad or my grandfather was traditional right? But really it's what they were stuck in the man box. Right? And so a lot of the teachings that my grandfather gave me was about you know, like I'm not supposed to play with certain things or even hang out with my might be as my aunt's in the kitchen. Because he would tell me like in his words, right, like SS Casa the VA has which is like that's woman's work. Essentially, right? And so I remember those constant teachings from him, and being really conflicted, right, because he would show me other caring and nurturing things in other ways, right? When he would take me places, or he would take me to, you know, to work with him, or showed me how to do some gardening work and stuff like that. But then he had these moments where he was very clear that I was not allowed there, right, or that I was not supposed to do that. So that that really shaped for me for a while, right? Like, to really be my authentic self, and be okay with saying, like, but I want to dance, or I want to be in the kitchen, you know, like, chatted it up and cooking with my aunts, you know, like, I wanted to do that, like, I found joy in those things. And, you know, it was clear from his teachings, that that was not something that I should be comfortable with. Right. So that really shaped that part of the, you know, those unhealthy teachings of manhood. And, and then I do remember also a moment with my younger brother, that when I first he was one of the first people that actually, you know, came out to, and he immediately called me back and said, no matter what, you're still my brother, and I love you, right, and this was like the late 90s. And so my brother, you know, was really, you know, involved in some of the gang culture in Southern California growing up. And so he also, you know, had this very hyper masculine way of navigating the world. So for him to have done that, and shown that kind of, like nurture, and that moment of, of caring, really marked me, right. It's something that I still remember that he was, you know, he didn't have to do that. It was not something that I expected from him. But it is something that marked me like, because it was it was a moment of vulnerability, right? We had a very intimate, vulnerable moment, right? And I'm very intentional about using the word intimate, right? Because I think as men, when we say, like, intimate, you know, automatically, we related to sex, right? But intimacy is really about sharing of yourself with somebody in this, you know, in this case, other men, right, sharing ourselves and saying, Hey, I see you, you're safe with me, and I'm holding on to what you're sharing, right? And so yeah, that was a very intimate moment that, you know, till this day, when I'm telling you this right now, it kind of, like gives me goosebumps, you know, because it was not something that I really got to experience back then. Right. It's something that experience a lot more often now. But that moment in time, you know, I was like, 18, or something like that. So it was a very significant moment for me. What a kid. Absolutely. Yeah.

Jesse  23:15

Do you are you still in relationship with your brother?

23:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, you we all grew up, there's four of us, me, my younger brother, and my two sisters, right? We kind of grew up did our own thing. hit some rough patches, right in our relationships. But, you know, again, because I started my healing journey, I've been able to also see my own relationships with them heal as well. Right? And so I'm glad that you know, we still have a very strong connection and that we have each other in our life so

Jesse  23:56

so, you know, um, how does your work? How does the work with a cult admin interact with all the different isms? Like starting I mean, it's pretty clear to me what how to interact with sexism. What about races? What about heterosexism?

24:20

Yeah, I mean, you know, one of our core beliefs that a call to mind is really that nothing happens in isolation, right? That everything is connected everything is impacts and causes some sort of relation with the other right and so when we do our work, you know, yes, our entry point to the conversations are is around healthy manhood, right? defining you know, what is what is a man right? Like what what are the expectations of being a man and we always are very intentional about bringing an intersectional lens, right intersectional kind of Crossroads right for different identities that we all come from different experience, we all come from different environments. Right? And, you know, as you know, intersectionality was coined by Kimberly Crenshaw, right? That really, when we're talking about the different identities that we carry, that it does have a diff, it may makes a difference, right? In what we're impacted by and what systems operate to, to oppress us. Right? So, for example, I know that as a queer brown man, that I can experience and have experienced marginalization, right, that I have experienced racism, that I have experienced discrimination. But I also know that you know, as a cisgendered, modified individual, I still carry privilege, I still carry clout in certain spaces, right? And so it's really just, especially when we're talking about sexism, and racism, these are, you know, operating together, right? The way that I can explain it is, you know, we think of, that's the, you know, we think of this hierarchy structure, right? So we have, let's say men of color, right? Black, indigenous men of color, experience, racism at the hands of white men, right? And women of color can experience sexism at the hands of men of color, right? Then they also experiencing racism at the hands of white women, right? And so women of color, black, indigenous women, right, are experiencing both racism and sexism at the hands of white man. Right. And so what that happened, what happens with that is that it creates a society where essentially, women of color black women, indigenous women are erased, right? They're not valued, they're not safe. And so we are very intentional, like, yes, there's a relationship to us as men as a whole really, right. But we have to think differently as men of color, what is my role in the ratio or in causing women of color to not be seen, to not be heard to not be honored, right? Because there's a role that I play for sure. Right? And so there's this stuff that we teach, right? Because, you know, we could have this conversation about healthy manhood just across the board for all men. But we had to also acknowledge that there's very important factors that, you know, apply differently to black men, to indigenous men, right to men of color, in their on risks of their own role and responsibility to end all the violence against women and girls. Right? It's a it's like saying, you know, actually, when I'm mentors and co founders for cosmin, Ted bunch, he explained it this way, one time, that made sense to me. And he said, you know, that the, the EZ Pass that you have in your car, so that you can take those toll roads, or, you know, have access to those lanes. And so it's like, you know, as men of color as black men, as indigenous men, we want that easy pass, right? To have the same accesses lane as white men, right? And then we think like, well, women, and women of color, you know, black Indigenous women they have they don't even have a car, right? And so we have to think about when we're asking for,

29:00

you know, gender equity, when we're asking for equality we weren't asking for, for justice, right around gender issues, that, you know, race plays a part in it. And we can't ignore that, right? We can't say like, Well, you know, I don't see color, or like, we're all men like, Yes, Yes, right. Again, I go back to, like, many things could be true at once, right? There's a lot of more complexities to this. And we have to lean into that, right. And it may cause a little discomfort for us to you know, have these conversations of race, right of white supremacy, culture of privilege. And, you know, I say like, if it causes you discomfort, then far often that means that's an area of growth for you, right? Why are you uncomfortable? Why do you have a discomfort? To me, I've learned that that usually, there's a there's an opportunity, there is an area of growth for me and that's why I'm discovering Experiencing discomfort.

Jesse  30:03

Do you think the white supremacy and the man box are related?

30:12

connected? For sure? Yeah, right. Yeah. Um, you know, I

Jesse  30:16

think, almost modeled off of each other, in a way.

30:22

Absolutely right. There's these systems in place, right? That, you know, create this, this, this sense of superiority, right? So if you're a white male, you do have your sense of superiority, right? You have this definitely, like, you know, systems and structures that are upholding privilege for you, right? similar with the memebox as men, their systems and their structures that are upholding us, right? I'm not saying that we believe it, right, that we really have all these things that women are weak, and then that women are inferior. But we do have to recognize that these systems and structures have hold us in that, even as we're doing the work to dismantle it, right, even as we're doing the work to promote gender equity. And when you think of white supremacy, culture, right, one of the things around white supremacy, culture is the right to comfort, right, the right to silence and to remain invisible, right? So my experience when I'm in a room, and there's white folks present, and we start talking about race, or ask about race, it's usually pretty silent, right? Like, not a lot of white folks are jumping to say something or to start the conversation, which is also similar when I'm in a room of all men, and we start talking about patriarchy, and sexism and that right to silence, right, that right to comfort that men have, they're like, Oh, well, you know, I did not violate in that sense. So this has nothing to do with me. Right. So there's a, there's a same parallels of like, disassociating and distancing from from the issue, right? So yeah, I definitely do believe that they are connected. Right? Again, I don't think any of these things happen in isolation.

Jesse  32:28

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the live respect curriculum.

32:33

Oh, live respect is an amazing curriculum that we created in partnership with scholastic. And really, it was, you know, our way of providing this this free resource to our communities? Which is these lesson plans, right, that help start these conversations on high school campuses, on college campuses with, you know, middle school boys, young men in particular, right? Like how to start these conversations around the memebox? And what is the collective socialization of manhood, right? So this curriculum, you can find it on our website, you can download it for free, it also comes with the toolkit for how to use it on your campus. It's a great resource for coaches, for educators, you know, for young leaders that are really looking to have these conversations in their communities, and covers everything from the memebox, to gender norms to sexual harassment, discrimination, and how to interrupt right? When we see these cases of unhealthy manhood or patriarchy or sexism happening in, you know, in classrooms, or in sports teams, or just in capping on campus in general. So, it's a great resource. You know, we also offer trainings for the trainers on how to make sure that, you know, again, folks are using an intersectional lens when they're having these conversations. And is this something that we've used with, you know, numerous community partners in schools, both nationally and internationally. And it's something that, you know, a lot of our partners have said is very impactful and has changed lives in terms of, you know, how those conversations are happening in on school campuses, and how a lot of this is, you know, helping a shift the culture so that young men know what consent is. We did a pre and post survey with 300 high school boys, middle school and high school boys. And what we found that, you know, post our pre the curriculum, like 81% of the young men did not know how to define consent or tell us what consent was. Right? So it's very alarming. You know, these conversations are not happening in the house, right? That we, as you know, as fathers as uncle's as men that have influence with other young men in our, in our lives, we're not having these conversations right? Around consent around what that means and how to define it, right? Which explains why one in five women will be sexually assaulted in college, right? Because we live in a society that tells our boys, that no means try harder, right, that when a girl woman tells him know that they need to try harder, right, that they need to step up the game. And that's not the world we want to create.

Jesse  35:52

Oh, it's not. So how do these conversations go with that age group?

35:58

Yeah, so the great thing about this is, because we developed it with scholastic, it's super user friendly, it's formatted, so that these nine workshops can happen at whatever rate that they want to do it in school, right, you can do one session over, you know, two class periods or all in one hour. And you can really tailor it to, you know, specific circumstances that might have happened in the school, right? A lot of experience, we have classrooms or schools that, you know, we have these incidents with the young boys harassing girls, right? Or that they're, you know, there's incidents of certain harassment of young queer kids on campus, right? So these conversations around gender norms are really helpful, right to talk about, like, well, let's talk about who defines these roles, right, and let's talk about where we have our own influence, and where we have a platform to shift that culture, right, we want to shift that culture so that boys are, you know, promoting healthy men. Right? And that's by changing the way that they make comments about young women or girls and the way that they interact with each other. Right? You know, and especially with high schoolers, right, a lot of these teachings, at that point in their lives are already pretty much you know, creating a foundation for how they view women and girls in the world. Right? So I think, I think you can always start sooner, right, younger, but definitely, I think middle school, and high school is an important time period to have these conversations, that again, I don't feel a lot of them are happening in the household. And so I think we also as men have to take on that role and responsibility to provide guidance, right? on how they can, how they can live more authentically as men, right? And how they can be part of the solution to create gender equity.

Jesse  38:14

What is what do you mean by living more authentically, what does that mean for

38:19

me means living outside of all this constructs, right? When I mentioned the man box earlier, and how it's really this, you know, you don't cry, you don't show weakness, you're always tough. You know, it really, you know, I think about to, like, you know, three year old boys, right? When we tell them to stop crying, when we tell them to man up, essentially, what we're doing there is telling them to stop feeling, right, so we're already shutting down any kind of literacy, emotion, right? That they can express themselves, that they can cry, that they can be vulnerable, that they can, you know, do all the things that they want to do. And so when I say living authentically, it's really just living a fuller, richer, more free version of ourselves, right? That don't subscribe to these gender norms. Right? That you get to be you and not only just be you, but that you also are contributing to this culture, right? When we're celebrating people, not just tolerating them, you know, but like celebrating people for who they are as their whole selves, right? And their whole selves. Yeah, my whole self. I do want to cry. I want to show weakness, right? I want to be able to break that cycle that men don't offer help, don't accept help. You don't want to want to break that cycle. So that to me is living authentically.

Jesse  39:51

Yeah. It reminds me of, um, and I cannot remember her name right now. Okay. Hey, I just googled it and found the quote, it's, if you have come to help me, You're wasting your time. If you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together. We love Watson, Aboriginal elder, activist and educator from Queensland, Australia. All right, back to sway.

40:28

You know, we had a call to men say, we're aspiring allies, right, that we aspire to show up as allies because, you know, we don't we don't believe that you that we as men necessarily get to give ourselves that title, right? They're like, Hey, I'm an ally. It's like, well, it's all about how we show up, right? And how we're being asked to show up. And for us, it's really important that when we think about Alisha, when we talk about ally ship, that we are really centering the voices and the experiences of those that reside in the margins or the margins, right? And so, for us, it's about, you know, I would I would describe it as, like, I'm on a one day contract with women, right? Meaning that every single day, that contract starts at noon, right, and I'm gonna mess up, and I'm not always gonna say the right thing. And I'm not always going to show up the way I would have liked to show up or that I, you know, was expected to show up. And, and I need to accept that that's part of the journey, right? Because I think that also stops us as man, you know, we just want to always get it right. And why don't make sure that, you know, we say the right thing, when we're, you know, in this practice of ally ship, which I think, you know, again, relate, I can relate it to, you know, when folks or when white folks are asked to show up, around, you know, issues of race, right? That, why don't want to say the wrong thing, or I want to make sure I get it, right, right. And so, again, that that need to have it all right, and just have it all figured out, is, you know, another characteristic of white supremacy culture, and it's just I think we need to lean into that discomfort and be like, Hey, I'm an aspiring ally, but I also know that, you know, I have harmed in my life, right? And I probably am going to make mistakes that may harm, right. So I think we have to, to hold all those truths at once, right? Our founder, Tony Porter, would describe it as we are building the plane and flying it at the same time as a man, right? Because we're like one of the first generations to really be asked to show up differently, right to really break away from all those teachings of our fathers and our grandfathers. And you know, I think that's the invitation right? That's the call to men to show up and stick and even when it gets hard to stay at the table right? To stay at the table.

Jesse  43:08

I love that you said daily contract I think there's this myth of like the good guy that I myself I've definitely adhered to and have been lucky enough to have people in my life who have given me grace and were comfortable enough to to tell me otherwise. And I I'm just so so grateful for this conversation. Because it is you are going to mess up like you just are like I I thought I knew what it meant is I so I'm in an interracial marriage. And there are times even in my own marriage that I fuck up. You know, I say things that are just dumb, or just completely insensitive. And there are times as a man that I'm doing that not just as a white man but as as a man that I'm doing those two things and I got to take each day as different day and and a new opportunity to do better and I think the myth of the good guy just does so much more harm than good. And I think it's like you said it's it's a characteristic of white supremacy that it defends itself because many you call someone a racist. They're like, No, I'm not a racist. I have, you know, I have friends of color. Those kind of things are really not there. They're ignoring what the lessons that are being given to you.

45:03

So yeah, that's a defense that leads to that discomfort, right? Yeah. Why the discomfort that leads to that defense? Yeah, it's like, I'm asking you to listen, right? Like and really listen, right? Because I think a lot of the times we were listening with the intention to respond, rather than just like, Alright, let me see what what was just shared, right. But I don't always have to have a response, especially when people are holding us accountable, right? I think accountability, you know, should people should really understand accountability as love, right? That the fact that I'm taking time to pull you aside or to talk to you, is that of love, right? Because I want to be part of your growth, and because your healing is connected to my healing.

Jesse  45:52

Yeah, thank you. With that, what's been some of the greatest lessons you've gained from your work with a call to action?

46:05

I think one of the one, you know, one of the takeaways that I have found the most impactful in my life is really around. Having, you know, the empathy and humility with men that, you know, in particular, you know, like, I think, as a society, I for sure, was taught that certain men were dangerous, right, that certain men, you stay away from those communities, right, in particular, black and brown and indigenous men that have all these, you know, systems working on, you know, that oppression, right on these structures that oppress them. And so it's really about holding hope in healing for men, even men that I can't count on right now in this moment, right to really be part of this work of this conversation that I still know that I hope, hope, hope, hope, hope and healing for them, right. And that's not always easy, right? Especially when we're talking about men who have harmed right men that harm. And I think one of the things that this work has allowed me to really see or understand is that I'm working with communities of men to try and hold them accountable, right to bring accountability into into our lives. While at the same time recognizing that these black, indigenous and brown men are also living in a society that has never taken accountability for the way that it has treated them, right, the way that they has oppressed them, whether through these different systems of incarceration, financially poor because of criminalization. Right? So, again, calling all those truths at once, right, I think that's probably the most impactful lesson that I've taken away from this work.

Jesse  48:27

One more question for you, oh, two more questions. If you had a microphone to the world, what would you say?

48:39

I think my message to the world is, you know, I want to I want to live in a world where we don't tolerate people that are different from us, right? I want to live in a world that celebrates those folks that honors them, that really centers them. And I think one of the communities that we should really think about centering as a world together, is black trans women, right? If we can celebrate black trans women and honor them, I think we all benefit.

Jesse  49:30

Why black trans women.

49:33

Because it's you know, it's always like very unsettling that when we think about black trans women here in the United States, right? We look at the statistics, right? The numbers that the life expectancy of black trans women in the US is about 3334 years old. 3334 years old, and So it's, you know, how, how is it that any group of people's life expectancy here is 3334 years old? And like, Where's the collective outrage around that, where's the mobilization to really center them. And, you know, I want to be in a world where they're saved and valued and honored, and celebrated. And I think, you know, if we can center those experiences that we can center those voices, and elevate them, that we all benefit, right? we all benefit to like, just like I said, Our Liberation's tied to each other. If we can center that the community we can center, black trans women, we all benefit at a call to men, we firmly believe that that we would all been

Jesse  50:58

awesome. Is there anything I didn't ask that I should ask?

51:07

I don't think so. I mean, this was a good conversation. I think we talked through, really, you know, the core of our work, right, and why it's important. I think one other maybe takeaway, or thing I would share is, you know, is that when we're when we're having these conversations around masculinity and manhood, I think it's important to remember that as men, right, that this is a new work, right? These conversations around masculinity and gender have been happening for a long time, right. And the only reason that we're having it is very much attributed to the leadership of like, trans and non binary folks, right, that have always lived outside of these boxes that have always lived authentically. Right. And so I think we also need to really elevate that and recognize it in these conversations that just because as men, we're having these conversations in our masculinity that we're not, we're not the gatekeepers of what masculinity is right? Or what manhood is that we're stakeholders in these conversations, but we're not the gatekeepers of it. And so I think, you know, these conversations around masculinity, two are about honoring and expanding, you know, as a society that we can move beyond the binary, right? And that doesn't mean that you don't comfortably live as a you know, as a male identified person or that. That's how you identify it, right? It just means that that just because other people thrive doesn't mean you lose something, right? I think you mentioned this earlier, right? This idea that we're losing something because our man has been taken away from right. It's that it's that mentality that's stuck in surviving, and I think we really need to move toward towards thriving. Right, we all thrive together.

Jesse  53:30

A big thank you to host sway for joining us this week and everyone at a call to men for their incredible work to promote healthy masculinities and communities around the world. And thank you for joining me for this week's episode of making change. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I've enjoyed making it and don't forget to hit that subscribe button and join me again next week as we work to put a microphone to the stories that matter.