Episode 4: Peaces of Me

Disability rights activist Daniel Hodges joins Miking Change to talk about Peaces of Me, a young nonprofit that promotes universal access and inclusion for those living with a disabilities and chronic illness. Founding the organization all while juggling law school, Daniel's perspective has been profoundly shaped by his experience as a blind man living with chronic pain and other conditions. He has spent a lifetime surpassing the low expectations placed on him and has made it his personal calling to aid others living with a disability and chronic illness reach their full potential. 

Transcript

Daniel Hodges: 0:00

Every employer that I've ever talked to wants to have the best candidate. But if your systems are such that you're rooting out people through an accessibility or through structured ableism within your screening process, then odds are you're not getting all of the best canidates in it.

Jesse: 0:31

Hi Changemaker. My name is Jesse Colman, and you're listening to making change a podcast that puts a microphone to the stories that matter. Today I'm joined by Daniel Hodges, the founder of Peaces of Me a young nonprofit that promotes a universal access and inclusion for those living with disabilities and chronic illness. Daniel is a disability rights activist who founded the organization well in law school, his perspective has been profoundly shaped by his experience as a blind man living with chronic pain and other conditions. Daniel has spent his lifetime surpassing the low expectations placed on him, and has made it his personal calling to aid others living with a disability, and chronic illness to reach their full potential. I want to make a small note, before we get started, that you may notice a difference in the audio quality for this episode, we had to switch recording softwares as the one that this podcast typically uses, was not set up to be inclusive of Daniel's needs. It gave us just a small glimpse of the realities Daniel faces daily doing today, I am doing great, how about yourself. So good, so great to have you on making change. So you founded an organization called Peaces of Me Foundation. Before before we jump into your mission, I'd like to get to know you a little better and ask you about your own journey. And so what was your childhood like?

Daniel Hodges: 2:04

You know, I had it since childhood that was a bit unique, we traveled around the country, for various reasons, you know, I was in several schools growing up and lived in several states. But I think my childhood was one where my parents did what they could to try to find whatever resources and connections they could to help make me quote unquote, normal, which we'll get into later on to this interview, but it never quite fit. So I look back on my childhood and see all the reasons why I felt like I never quite fit myself.

Jesse: 2:54

Yeah, what were some of those reasons that you didn't feel?

Daniel Hodges: 2:57

So I was born legally blind. And we didn't know this at the time. But I was also born with a connective tissue disorder called iOS danlos. So I was the kid who walked around with the glasses that or you know, as thick as your finger, and you still couldn't quite read the print on the page, you know, maybe we could magnify it up to a, you know, 1,000,000%. And I could read a letter at a time. I tried to play sports, but it's hard to track a basketball or baseball, when you have a very limited range of vision and you're extremely near sighted. So I would still go out and do those things. But you know, there were adaptations that had to be made. And it just always felt like I was on the periphery.

Jesse: 3:51

And what were your parents, like responses to your, your, both your challenges, and just your diagnosis in general.

Daniel Hodges: 4:02

There was a lot of attempts to connect me with the right retinal specialists, the right surgeons, etc. You know, every doctor would always try to infuse optimism into the conversation by saying, Hey, you know, they're working on retinal transplant, and they're working on microchips, and all of these other things. Maybe someday we'll restore his sight. And that was supposed to be the beacon, you know, between where I was and what was supposed to be the fulfilling life. So, you know, there was this real emphasis on what can we do to maximize that last little inkling of vision because no one had ever brought into the awareness that there were things that could optimize my other skills, regardless of whether any vision remained. Yeah,

Jesse: 4:57

so it sounds like it's almost as if they were fully Something like fixing it, versus focusing on how to make your life and make the world around you as accessible as possible. In my hearing that right?

Daniel Hodges: 5:16

That's precisely it.

Jesse: 5:20

So what is it? Like for someone who's not legally blind? What's it like navigating the school system? With that challenge?

Daniel Hodges: 5:31

You know, in a physical sense, I learned a lot of memorization tricks. You know, I would learn to tell where I was in space by just kind of using a few visual and some other like auditory landmarks, you know, stay with the crowd, that sort of thing. But in a social sense, it was pretty difficult because, you know, none of my classmates had ever come across anyone like me, No, nobody knew what to do. And really, to be frank, most of the adults didn't know what to do. And so they were setting the course. And you learn to try to get teachers to read what's on the chalkboard, sometimes they would want to sometimes they wouldn't. And I remember this very vivid memory of me as a third grader, this being really upset because I had asked and I had asked to have was one of the chalkboard for the daily assignment read to me, which was a pretty simple thing. But you know, it was not consistently happening. So I felt excluded. I felt like I was in trouble for something I had no control over.

Jesse: 6:48

How did that affect your ability to learn?

Daniel Hodges: 6:53

Well, essentially, what happened was, my parents got set up, both because of that, and some issues related to my birth certificate with me being adopted. And they pulled me out of public school for what would have been my seventh grade year, in hopes of homeschooling me. Unfortunately, the homeschooling materials all came in standard print and weren't accessible either. And so what happened in a very literal sense, is from what should have been grade seven through what should have been grade 11. I, basically, completely, and so I went back to school for what should have been my senior year of school, we had finally found that there was a school for the blind, and I went in and learned cane travel, I've learned Braille, I learned some accessible technology there. But in a very real sense, I missed out on five years of K 12 education, and eventually ended up getting a GED so that I could go into school, or go into college at the same age as my peers.

Jesse: 8:00

So you were you were 17. By the time you got the resources you needed to

Daniel Hodges: 8:05

learn? Yes. Wow. That was the first time I hadn't been introduced to Braille. First time I was introduced to a white cane first time, I knew that there were programs on the computer that could magnify text, or could actually read a text out to you. It was a whole new world. And I'll also mentioned this was the first time I had ever actually met anyone, any of my peers who were also blind or visually impaired. This was the first time I didn't feel completely alone. And I started the thrive a little bit. Yeah.

Jesse: 8:42

I mean, what was what was that like meaning meeting someone that experienced the world similar to you, at the age of 17. And having to wait that long? To have

Daniel Hodges: 8:51

that. It was great. It was awesome, because I was able to feel more accepted. I felt like I was starting to stand out for reasons other than being the kid who couldn't see. And so I started to be able to lean into more of my talents and my skills and my personality, in a way that I hadn't been able to before.

Jesse: 9:15

Yeah, let's talk about those talents. What did you discover what talents and what superpowers is Daniel and Hodges have?

Daniel Hodges: 9:25

Well, at that point in my life, I really started to lean into music. And I started to realize that, contrary to what I had felt going up through public school without the right accommodations, I started to realize, Oh, wait, I actually am reasonably smart. I'm a decent writer I can. I can do these things, at least on par with my peers, if not better, when I actually have access to the right materials and You know, skipping ahead a little bit, I went from someone as a kid and as a young adult who thought, Oh, I just, I'm not a good reader I don't like to read I'll read if I absolutely have to, to eventually becoming a law school grad. And you know, there's a lot of reading involved there. And I'll even say, I'll even say during my law school times, I was still reading for pleasure, because I enjoy it that much in that I can't think of a better contrast between what I actually enjoyed doing, versus what I thought I didn't enjoy based on an accessibility barrier, and just how starkly that stands out.

Jesse: 10:47

And and there was like, I mean, 17 years of your life before discovering that, I mean, what's going on? Then? Like, what is what are you being told about yourself? What are you like, how are you experiencing the world without like, being able to like realize your own potential.

Daniel Hodges: 11:10

I'm existing in this dual reality where on one hand, I feel like I'm capable of greatness. I feel like I'm capable of achieving my dreams. I feel like there's something in there inside of me. And on the other hand, I'm existing in a world where every message coming back is inferiority and capability just being someone who needs to be taken care of or someone who is somehow broken and so my identity at that point was very split and that did lead to a lot of depression anxiety, other things just because I honestly did not feel like I said in and then you put on the isolation and the other things that happened by virtue of just some of the social medication or dynamics it was it was really dark Yeah, I can only imagine and

Jesse: 12:08

i mean i'm sure like every you know kid growing up you're asked like, what do you want to do when you grew up? Did you get asked that question and in those moments and like, what what was your reaction to that?

Daniel Hodges: 12:24

Well and that was a great example here of you know, I wanted to at that point, be a musician because I knew music was one thing a blind person could do and I was reasonably good at it. I had earlier in my life thought I was going to be able to be a pro athlete because here I was as a guy who could barely see but could yet hit a baseball 450 feets with a wooden bat if somebody sauce tossed it to me but as I realized Okay, that's talent might be there but just put the bridge just doesn't exist between that and being able to see a 90 mile an hour fastball. You know, there was a lot of personality conflict, a lot of internal conflict there trying to sift through you know, what, what is possible? How do I how do I go to college? How do I get out into the work world? How do I start a family if on one hand, yeah, I'm smart enough, I've got these talents. But on the other hand, I can't even cross the street by myself, I can't cook my own meals, I don't know how to clean my own house all of these things. So at that point in my life, there wasn't a deep conflict inside.

Jesse: 13:48

And before you were able to find your peer group, and your community there what what were friendships like what were I mean what were the peers that you were meeting before that age of 17

Daniel Hodges: 14:08

I had a few strong one to accepted me for me and you know, if somebody would have said crossword they would have ended up regretting it because you know, one or two of my friends growing up with dexcom and I do have an example. You know, my my best friend growing up and I we would always place for three a year, we became very in sync when it came to basketball. And, you know, this is the point in my life where I had started to give up on wearing glasses. I didn't like the way I stood out. So I sacrificed a little bit of vision improvement they gave me just to sit in. I remember one time we were just shooting hoops at the school playground after hours and a couple of other teenagers came up and we did challenged them to a two on two game didn't say anything about my vision at that point or during the game beat them pretty soundly in a two on two game and then we said oh by the way you just got beat by a blind guy so so we had I had a good Very few very good friends um unfortunately they were in Ohio and so when we left Ohio and went to other places that did start to strain because you know again back then you know, we didn't have access to zoom and FaceTime and all of that we had barely had you know, AOL Instant Messenger and cell phone if you can snag somebody minutes

Jesse: 15:44

you get you find this school for for the blind, and then you end up going getting your GED and then going to college. And then eventually law school, why did you choose law school and bring me to the journey of like navigating from, you know, thinking you're going to become a musician to working on becoming a lawyer. While I

Daniel Hodges: 16:10

was getting my GED, I was also getting trained at a place called the Colorado Center for the Blind, where we took the skills I had begun receiving the previous year, and really amplify them, you know, when you're getting trained on mobility instruction from in Denver, and the expectation is, by the time you finish the course, they're going to drop you off somewhere in the Denver Metro area, without assistance without telling you where you are. And you're going to make your way back to the training center by yourself only asking one question to the general public, your your mobility skills are way different than they were when you got there. That was one of the pivotal moments where I started to see okay, I really can travel anywhere in this country that I want to, I started to have people in my life including now my ex wife, who had said, Look, I don't care. If you're blind, you're going to achieve whatever you decide you're going to achieve. You're going to surround yourself with people who reinforced that or you're going to get rid of them. And that was a that's a years long process. By the way, that's not something you do overnight. I ended up going to Boise State in Idaho after I finished at the Colorado center and was starting out looking at psychology and then ended up looking at education, thinking okay, I really help. I really enjoy helping people learn I really enjoy learning myself. And when did that have happening is during my junior year, I had a significant mental health crisis. I ended up in the hospital I ended up on several different psych meds and because I didn't know how to advocate I didn't know how to go back to the school and say, Look, I'm not trying to be truant, I'm not trying to pull things off. I literally cannot get out of bed. I ended up failing out of school and what went on to do some work in retail I was the first blind stocker that any of that we all my co workers, co workers had ever seen. And eventually got back into school in a virtual school called Western Governors University, which was competency based and based on based on one's skills based on one's understanding, and able to work around life's challenges because oh, by the way, at the time that I'm starting at WSU, I'm also helping the kids mom deal with our daughter's cancer treatment because she had been born with the same eye cancer that my ex wife was born with. And we had to take that on, and she came out really well. We have three kids, two of them have beaten this cancer. And that is all of a say by the time I got through my undergrad by the time I got through, you know playing my partner's a dad and this by the time we had fought with the state of Colorado because the social workers at the hospital literally refused to believe the blind parents were capable of taking care of taking care of babies or children, despite us bringing in resources despite us passing every test that they gave us and them still trying to remove the towel Children from our custody simply based on their perceptions of blindness. By the time all of these things have transpired, I've gained a very particular view of the world in the kind of discrimination that we face, and had begun to lean into advocacy again and say, Look, I've got these experiences, I have this fire that is now burning inside of me, I want to make this world more equitable, I want to make sure that if there's any way I can make sure that somebody else doesn't go through this the way that I did, I'm going to go out of my way to make sure I can block that from happening. And I kind of sat with that for a couple of years, I ended up getting in a mentorship program with a lawyer who was training me on a few things, helping me look for jobs and such and had really built up a rapport with me and said, Look, you've got the brains, you're articulate, you've got a passion for advocacy, you've got all these things going for you. Why would you not consider going to law school. And that was a pivotal moment for me, because I had to admit, I still hadn't let go of my own internal ableism, I still had to allow myself to believe I was capable of that, instead of settling for the things I thought I was capable of, even if they weren't a great fit, even if they weren't what I really wanted to do. So I sat with that for a day or two, prayed about it, consulted another mentor, who on her own came to me and said the same thing. It says, look, here's what I'll do, I'll sign up for the L SAT. I'll begin to look into different options. I'll give it a shot, but I'm not promising anything. Well, a year later, I was in law school looking to practice at the intersection of healthcare and civil rights and say, I made it here. I did reasonably well on the all sat, got accepted into a school with a scholarship in a place I wanted to be, which was Baltimore, I'm going to go do this. And I'm going to fight to make sure that we're rooting out some of these inequities and creating opportunity instead of hurdles for people. Wow.

Jesse: 22:28

That's incredible. I mean, there's just so many times in that story where it's like, he knows you you have these plans and then life had a different plan. And and you both pivoted and broke free from that I'm you know, you mentioned this a little bit with your your daughter and your your other children. But But what was it like navigating the medical system.

Daniel Hodges: 23:05

So, navigating the medical system, when you have any kind of rare disease is automatically hard. There's a maxim in the medical system where it's built to address the most common issues first and foremost. And so, from the very beginning, we're having to educate ourselves on retinoblastoma. We're having to learn all of the latest research ourselves, we're having to learn the terminology and the different players in the field ourselves. Because it becomes very clear that we can't just sit back and rely on the opinion of others, even if they are doctors. When it's your child's life on the line. You just can't. Or at least we couldn't. So that was probably number one. Now, let me again, go back and say when I'm talking about CPS intervention based on blindness, they beat us home from the hospital with our first child based on the hospital's perception of blindness. Now, my daughter had her first eye exam at five days and had her first exam under anesthesia in treatment, I don't know 10 days of age. That means we were literally fighting this cancer, learning all of this stuff, doing all the other stuff first time parents are having to do and I'm working full time graveyard at a retail store. While the state of Colorado is openly questioning our ability to parents. I made every single one of her appointments. I made it a point to do that. And actually rearrange, my store was thankfully, accommodating enough to help me switch my split my nights off so that I could make sure that I was there for the chemo, and the laser and stuff. And that's not to say I have a perfect job. I'm far from a perfect dad. But it was a point to me, just to make sure that I was there and to make sure that their mom or her mom at that point, wasn't facing this alone. Because when you when you're when you're a first time mom, and you've come into it, knowing how to nurse knowing how to change diapers, knowing how to dress, the baby, all of these other things. And they're still saying, No, it's not good enough. I can't see anything that's wrong, but it's still not good enough, because I can't believe you can do this. She came out traumatized, just pure, simple. He came out traumatized from all of this. So it was important for both of us to work together to get through this on a broader scale, not just for me, but for those of us with disabilities in general. It is not good. Health inequity in our arena, which is honestly a conversation ended up itself is a very real problem right now. You know, in my last semester of law school, I wrote on this topic for a class. And one of the studies that I cited, which was from a few years ago showed that despite the ADA, despite the Affordable Care Act requiring access, less than 15%, of medical facilities in the state of California, we're accessible to those with disabilities fully, which is completely unacceptable. And there are stories that we could cover all weekend of just things that have happened that were tragic, that just didn't need to happen. People have suffered harm or sometimes lost their lives based on accessibility. And the prevailing idea that the lack of adequate care is somehow based off of our bodies, and the quote unquote, defects in our bodies, rather than defects in the system, rather than negative attitude rather than a system that is structured, profoundly. ineptly is it's just wrong. The system is the problem here, not our bodies,

Jesse: 27:42

just imagining the insecurities you already have, as a new parent, being told by by people, that should be helping you get on your feet as parents that you're not equipped for it. I just can't imagine. I am so grateful for you in your activism. And so I want to go into Pe. You're in law school, a d you decide to start this orga ization, what led you to it.

Daniel Hodges: 28:12

I had been noticing even within the disability world, but there were significant gaps in coverage. There was no one place where someone could go and find access to the resources or connections they needed in a streamlined manner. You can Google that you can get word of mouth from people, but there were a lot of things that were just falling through the cracks. I had also noticed that many of the organizations I had been exposed to, were not really able to embrace and support people with multiple disabilities. And I had seen too many of peep too many people that I cared about feeling like they were left on the side of the road at the moment. They needed help most. And what finally happened was that summer between my first and second year of law school, I find myself in a very dark place yet again said hey, I need something. I need something good. I need something that makes this pain, physical and mental worth it. I need something that I can bring back into the world beyond just being a lawyer. And I found myself sitting in Christy's living room talking about what happened with her having to leave the workforce due to her injuries and what has happened when her youngest daughter was born with the limb difference hearing her say, you know how unsupported she felt how the medical system had failed her and her family as well. And it just clicked, I said, you know what we can do something about this. Because the stigma, the misconceptions, the pain that you're feeling on behalf of yourself on behalf of your daughter, it's very similar to what I felt is similar to what my friends and other loved ones have felt, we can fix this, or we can at least make a dent in the process. And so we started building a team, we had a vision of creating the Wikipedia of Disability Resources. But beyond that, building that community where someone can come and feel like they're accepted from the beginning, regardless of whether they have a diagnosis or not, regardless of what circumstances that they may have in their life, you have people that are willing to give you support ideas, connect you with resources. And I think at least as importantly, you have a community that says, You're not broken, you have something to contribute, you have a knowledge or an insight, or an understanding or a gift, or something that we want to help you share back into the world, so that you realize that you don't matter. And that's really the basis of pieces. And that's why we started PTA CES of me, rather than p IE CES, we are not broken, we are just missing the tools that help us embrace who we are, and go live our best lives. You mentioned

Jesse: 31:50

Wikipedia of Disability Resources, what is this idea?

Daniel Hodges: 31:54

This idea is basically breathe together, the resources, the programs, the different bits of knowledge, whatever it may be, that people have found useful in their lives, putting it into one database, one searchable database that is accessible to everyone throughout the world, where they can come and they can learn, and they can shake free of whatever misconceptions they have, they can find something that'll help them on their journey towards thriving. Because right now, you know, we there's a lot of people in groups who have tried to compile all of the good resources, it's just too big of a task for one person, it can't be done. Just like Wikipedia had to be done by the crowd to be full and to be robust. So does that's

Jesse: 32:55

and and you've used the word disability. I've heard others. I prefer different words. So I'm curious if we should be using the word disability or what your thoughts are on that?

Daniel Hodges: 33:12

Well, let me first say that, I think as with any other minority, if you pick up on somebody having their own preferred language, that's the way to go. Because it's a sign of respect. Now, for me, I use the word disability, because to me, it cuts to the chase, and that I'm not having to feel like I am differently abled in the sense of, Okay, I'm blind, but I don't have superior hearing. Therefore, in my having my societal reinforced societal notions are reinforced based off of not having a heightened sense compared to what we can since, you know, it gets me out of all the crap of, you know, what, what else am I bringing to the table to try to compensate for my blindness or my chronic pain instead, the word disability to me, it's not about my body, it's about the system that is broken. It's about the system that is not built for people like me, and us, my disability arises from what I call systemic ableism. It's the notion that one reads print or relies on Braille, or someone who is able to walk or cast to use a wheelchair, those kinds of things, because really, and truly if I'm using if I'm using Braille, and that's my primary mode of communication or using a screen reader, so long as I am getting the information, utilizing it in the way that it's needed, and then turning it out into some kind of knowledge or something. useful, who cares what the medium is? If you're having to go somewhere, and a place is accessible, why should it matter? If you're walking or using a chair or some other device, in order to get from point A to point B, society has no right to hold that against you. And so it comes back to this idea that we have to get out of this mode of preferring or elevating certain ways of accessing the world over others. And that, to me, that's where disability the word comes into play because it, it signs the spotlight back on the systemic inequities that have created these problems.

Jesse: 35:44

So it's in context with the system? Yes. What do you want people to understand about the stigma around disability?

Daniel Hodges: 35:55

My biggest hope there is to understand that how we perceive disability is malleable, we can fix it, we can learn and we can grow just like we have with other minorities, society. Um, and I know, when we had kind of discussed earlier, we had kind of talked about the link between ableism and racism. And I think, I think this comes into play here. If you understand that ableism, racism and other isms are based out of eugenics, they're based on the idea that one characteristic or set of characteristics defines one's worth or potential and just the I just coming to realize how wrong that is, then we can let go of that. Or we can, we can free ourselves from the trappings of that history. And in the world of disability, we can say, you know, what, there is a very painful history here. There's a history of foster organization, there's a history of ugly laws where people who were quote unquote, unsightly, due to their disability were literally not allowed to be seen in public, we can release ourselves from the echoes and the underlying stigma. And we can do a better job of accepting one another, by learning from one another. Yeah. In so

Jesse: 37:38

how does the world benefit when individuals with disabilities get a fair shot? I mean, their potential? I mean, this may sound like an obvious question, but I think it's an important one to ask.

Daniel Hodges: 37:49

Absolutely. Some estimates put it at one in four Americans having a disability. Another popular statistic is that we are the world's largest minority. And you can slice and dice the numbers, any which way but loose. The reality of the matter is, there's a lot of us out here who are really fighting just to have a place at the table. Now, if you think about the kind of potential one could bring back into the system, if barriers are removed, and people are allowed to thrive, on terms of equity, it's mind boggling to think the kind of advancements we could make if everyone has a fair shot, and everyone is able to participate. And I think on the employer side, for instance, every employer that I've ever talked to, wants to have the best candidate. But if your systems are such that you're rooting out people through inaccessibility or through structured ableism within your screening process, then odds are you're not getting all of the best candidates. So again, going back to the lawyer front, if you want the best person who can read and synthesize and utilize case law or legal knowledge in general are the facts of the case. That's a very different question, then are you the person who is the fastest print reader, but sometimes we still get caught in that trap. You know, the person who was the best reader may very well use a different modality than what you're used to. Who is the best chef may very well use different tools than what you're used to. And if you're looking for the person who Who's Who has the most get rid of the accessibility barriers so that you can see what people are truly capable of.

Jesse: 40:11

I want to talk a little bit more about how racism and ableism is intertwined and explore that. On August 25 2019, Elijah McLean, a 23 year old black man was walking home from a convenience store, listening to music on his headphones in wearing an open face ski mask to keep his face warm because he has anemia. Three police officers decided that he looks suspicious. And when they called to him, they didn't respond. And so they restrained him tackled him to the ground and placed him into a chokehold. He yelled out, I'm an introvert, please respect my boundaries. And then he yelled out, I can't breathe. And then his final words were I am different. I bring this up, because we now know that Elijah was on the autism spectrum. And I think this is a is a prime example of how deadly it can be when we aren't talking about the intersection between the two of racism and ableism. And so I wanted to get your thoughts on how do we start that discussion? And how can we frame this discussion.

Daniel Hodges: 41:31

So let me put a disclaimer about him, hopefully not misunderstood in my following comments. I do not believe that law enforcement is inherently bad. Nor do I believe your average law enforcement officer is somehow evil, or just bad or awful, or whatever. That being said, I have to take a moment here and recognize, and this is something the media has, they think, feel it a son, we as disabled people, regardless of our skin color. Right? Oh, being on the wrong end of a tragic police intervention rate, very similar to those of our friends in the African American community, or other people of color. I can only imagine when you start having the intersecting conversation, the kind of challenges one deals with there. I think, in the sense of the case you were talking about which I remember reading about and actually being familiar with that neighborhood to some degree from my time living in Colorado. I don't think law enforcement meant to cause the outcome they did. I don't, I'm gonna choose to believe they were not of ill will. And I have to emphasize that because in that case, their training was so profoundly insufficient. It's not even funny. And and that's the case in many areas. I read thing last year about the rate of someone may get a few hours of de escalation training, which may or may not really even include full disability awareness training, compared to something like 10 or 20 times the amount of hours spent on firearms training. It's not enough, we have to train our law enforcement to understand how to interact with people who are in crisis, people who are on the autism spectrum, people who have invisible disabilities of all stripes, respectfully, safely, appropriately. Because if we fail to do that, we are putting our population at risk. And quite frankly, we are putting our enforcement at risk. They don't, I don't I don't believe your average law enforcement officer wants to be in that position, much more than the person who ends up being harmed wants to be in that position. I really don't. I mean, that's not the state of the art. You know, there are people out there who make wrong choices for any number of reasons and there are people with disabilities or rotten people do. That's that's that's a totally different conversation. But I think by and large, we're looking at We're looking at interactions, particularly with those who have invisible disabilities, and they also be a person of color, I think it's even more important to identify and fight any potential bias we may have. So that we can be with that person in reality, rather than within the constraints of our warped perception, because otherwise, we're at risk of any number of adverse outcomes happening. And how do we

Jesse: 45:55

I mean, beyond policing? I think it's an important conversation to have. I mean, we've talked a little bit about the medical system, medical, a lot of people look at the medical system as what, for black women is what police are for black men. And so and then you and then we've talked about the intersection of disability there. I just want to keep us focused here on on just how do we start to frame the conversation when we're talking about ableism that we also do it through a lens of racism.

Daniel Hodges: 46:37

I think simplistically speaking, people of color tend to be disproportionately represented on particularly Medicaid, people with disabilities. Similarly, case can be a phenomenal program. Let's just be honest, I Medicaid, Medicaid was part of what was a what we used in order to keep our children had the fight against cancer. But it also has its flaws. I think, again, if you're looking at a system, like you said, that does have a history of adverse outcomes for women of color, or people who are in general, and it has gross inequities with regard to disability built into the system, it really does create a need for conscious efforts to be made to disrupt the system in a very serious manner, in order to make sure that people are honestly just seen as people, rather than a caseload that may or may not be, you know, quote, unquote, too complicated for one's interest. That's kind of a cynical way to look at it. But it's honestly how it felt sometimes even with a white man navigating the system with a disability, what has been

Jesse: 48:07

your greatest lesson to your work at Peaces of Me, your greatest life lesson, I should say.

Daniel Hodges: 48:17

Internally, I have learned how to do things that I didn't know that I could do. I've learned how to lead, I've learned how to reach out and promote, which is a big thing coming from someone who has the history that I do, and some of the insecurities that I've had, I've had to be very intentional about getting the word out. And I think on the external side, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about the the inequities in the system and the barriers in the system, and rightly so. But I've had the belief reinforced that there really is hope out there for a brighter future, most, the vast majority of people in fact that I come across and talk through these issues with come away with a level of awareness and the desire to effect positive change within their circle. That is really encouraging. And so two years into the nonprofit, I am more encouraged than ever, that we can make a positive impact that the way that things had been don't have to be the way that things continue to be, at least to the degree that we have power over and honestly, every time we help someone get past their barriers in order to be able to thrive and to contribute back into the system. That's a win. And I think that the lesson that has really sunk in with me is just How great it feels even just one person up?

Jesse: 50:04

How can people get involved with Peaces of Me?

Daniel Hodges: 50:09

So the first and foremost thing is we are on all the social, we want to hear from you. We want to work with you. Come follow us, come join us on social, because we want to be heart of, we want you to be part of the community. And we want to help you get to whatever stage is best for you to continue on your thriving journey. Beyond that, you know, let's be honest, we're we're a nonprofit organization driven by donations. And any gift, even if it's a small gift, we just mean the world to us. It really does. I reply personally, back to anyone who makes a donation on our GoFundMe, so please come check us out there, even if it's 2030 bucks or whatever you can spare, it's going to help us go do this work. And above and beyond that, it reinforces to us that people are there supporting what we do, and anticipating us making this world a better place.

Jesse: 51:21

My final question for you, is if you had a microphone to the world, what would you tell it?

Daniel Hodges: 51:30

I would say that your assumptions aside, you get to know the person in front of you with an open mind. Let them communicate to you, their hopes, their dreams, their struggles. Without letting your own biases get in the way and meet them where they are, and then figure out how you can improve one another's lives.

Jesse: 52:17

Thank you so much for joining us this week, Daniel into everyone at Peaces of Me for your work to make our world more inclusive. I'm just so grateful that you were able to take time out of your schedule to chat as I've learned so much. And I really cannot wait to watch Peaces of Me grow into a flourishing vehicle for change, as I've no doubt at will with you at the helm. This has been another episode of making change. And I hope you've enjoyed listening to it as much as I've enjoyed making it. As I work to get this project off the ground and make it more sustainable. Your support would mean the world to me and if we haven't met before, haven't chatted in a while. I'd love a wave Hello on social and let me know if there's a mission close to your heart that you'd like covered. And please don't forget to hit that subscribe button and join us again next week as we work to put a microphone to the stories that matter