Episode 6: How Political Cartoons Can Be Barometers For Democracy - Part 1

Like Michael Jordan in Space Jam, Miking Change jumps into the world of cartoons with Terry Anderson, the executive director of Cartoonists Rights Network International.  CRNI is a human rights non-profit specifically for cartoonists whose work has lead to a threat on their life or liberty.  In part one, Terry explains how political cartoons play a critical role in our public discourse and when threatened—can be a sign of a democracy in decline. 
 

Transcript

Terry Anderson: 0:00

The the ability of a cartoonists to work to express themselves on troubled is a good indicator of the health of a democracy.

Jesse: 0:20

Hi Changemaker! My name is Jesse Colman, and you're listening to making change, a podcast that puts a microphone to the stories that matter. Like Michael Jordan and Space Jam. We're jumping into the world of cartoons today with Terry Anderson, the executive director of Cartoonists Rights Network International. It's a human rights nonprofit that specifically works with cartoonists whose work has led to a threat on their life and or their liberty. Terry brings over 25 years of cartooning to this role, getting his start while in high school by producing illustrations for the Glasgow Herald. He's a founding member of the Scottish cartoon art studio, which produced a touring exhibition full of international cartoons on the 2014 Scottish independence referendum. Terry's led workshops all over the world on cartooning, and is the former president of the Scottish Artists Union, the trade union for visual artists. Maybe it's his charming Scottish accent combined with Terry's powerful ability to articulate the nuances around freedom of speech. But he and I had a 45 minute conversation plan that quickly turned into 90 minutes. So I've cut this episode into two parts. This week, we'll dive into how political cartoons are barometers of democracy. And next week, we'll jump into what that barometer is reading with stories of cartoonists from all around the world. With that, let's get started. Hi, Terry, how are you doing today?

Unknown: 2:00

Um, know about JC how are you?

Jesse: 2:02

I am doing good. So, I am so glad to have you on here. I usually like to start these things out with a bit of an icebreaker and since you're in the artwork, cartoon world, I thought I'd start with who is your favorite superhero?

Unknown: 2:21

Batman without question

Jesse: 2:22

that's that man.

Unknown: 2:24

That's very easy.

Jesse: 2:29

Oh, yeah, we got to go into this because I'm a Spider Man guy. And I like I like cuz he's like, you know, he's like the people's superhero.

Unknown: 2:39

Of course. Yes.

Jesse: 2:40

Grew up in Queens. Yes. So

Unknown: 2:43

that is that that is that a kind of a a good leftist a theory around Spider Man. When I say Batman at first blush, anyway, a tends to strike people as a little bit right wing, you know, a billionaire that just has his own way and exempts his idea of of the law on everybody else. And perhaps a bad the bad hero for human rights advocate. But as as he won't be, isn't he what we would wish of the world's billionaires you know, he plays all the money back into into a effectively making the world better and he gets his hands dirty rather than being standoffish. But I think it really just comes down to the whole book is just so so go downhill you can't really argue with it. You can't you really can't argue with his graphic design aesthetic. And, you know, put little black triangles on everything and call it the bio or whatever. And he came up he came he came up recently a I don't know whether you're aware of the controversy, but I'm conscious that we perhaps have a family or didn't so I'll keep it clean. But a there was a some controversy lately about how considered a lover Batman has a certain joke was made in an animated series or was or the writers of a certain animated series wanted to make a joke, I should say, a that was a cable washed by the powers that be at DC and Warner Brothers who said that a Batman would not engage in a certain romantic activity. And they I don't buy that at all. I think by definition, Batman is the best at everything. And therefore, you know, in the bedroom, he would be as competent on the streets taking down criminals, so

Jesse: 4:49

I love it. I love it. So you know, we're talking about superheroes. I'm curious what your childhood was like. Where did you grew up? What were your parents Like are your guardians. And so

Unknown: 5:02

I grew up in Paisley, which is a time just outside Glasgow. Paisley's, we have the pattern comes from. It was historically a town of textile makers, weavers. At one time, the majority of the world's sewing thread was woven in Paisley. And I would say it was a happy childhood. And we weren't rich, but we weren't poor. And if we are poor at any point that that was kept back from myself and my two brothers, I'm the oldest of three boys. And we were fairly typical, I would say, late 1970s, early 1980s, Ted's, it was all about Star Wars and Hema, and a little bit later on ninja turtles, and so on. And I was indulged, I think it's fair to say, I was drawing from a very early age. And I don't know exactly where I picked up the words. But somewhere along the line, I learned the word cartoonist, and I'm told that it was a self identifying if you like, from the age of eight. And I was never disabused of that notion by either of my parents. I fought tooth and nail with teachers over them. And other people that were skeptical outside the home, but the two of them never once even that the, you know, the kind of cliched pm thing of, you've got to have something to fall back on. You know, you should you can do that. But go and get the account, Accountancy degree or go and get the, you know, the certificate from wherever, so that you put something, if it doesn't work out, it was always, yeah, that's what you want to do. So,

Jesse: 7:04

so. And so how did you do? What what how did you go from like drawing as a kid, to deciding to do political cartoons, and then making a living out of it?

Unknown: 7:18

I don't think I'm unusual. I think everybody draws up to a point. You don't have to tell a five year old or a six year old what to do when you put crayons and paper in front of them. At a certain point, seven or eight years old, some people get told don't do that anymore. And some people are left alone. And I'm just one of those people that was left alone to go on with it. My drawings were never not put on the refrigerator. Whereas some other folks drawings, when they're four or five, everything goes up. And then at a certain point, you know, you're not entertained anymore. So I was that kid at school of which there's always at least one who was invariably drawing. And the first money I made a was actually the sailing drawings of the ninja turtle the first time first, yeah, it was a thing that kind of, like kind of dates me, I suppose, because they've been around the block a few times since. But that was that was making money a school that way. And then before I even left before I was out of high school, the big newspaper in Glasgow, the Herald started taking material from me publishing and they are a supplement at a supplement education in schools supplement. And, and then from there after I left school, I kept producing various kinds of editorial illustration for them. And spent a little bit of time in the States. I went to school in New Jersey, and the Cubert school specifically for cartoonists and comic book artists. Because at that stage, I don't think I had my heart set on any particular you know, kind of format or application of cartooning comics were back, it was the 1990s If you recall, you know, image had just happened and all that kind of stuff. So that was the big kind of speculate or booming market around comic books specifically. And a lot of people were pursuing comics because of that, but when I was at the school, I was just as open to things like caricature and gag cartooning and stuff like that a as much as the kind of superhero capes and tights stuff and came back came back to Scotland a resume to work with the handled and so I've been I was a contributor to the to the Herald in Glasgow for the best part 15 years in total. And and also The Millennium 1989 Myself and a group of other artists the left here established a studio because cartoonists the standing joke the past year has been we were, we were pandemic ready, we were already all working from home and visibly from from from back rooms and the bedrooms and basements and so on. But the idea of the studio and it was established was to was to make us more visible to make us more available. And so as you see, I was 1989. So that kind of took me into other other forms, as I say in applications of cartooning started doing more things like drawing events, working with young people in schools and libraries, that kind of thing. And then a, started exhibiting work is well, because cartoonists increasingly, it's not just a commercial, your commercial art activity, it does have kind of crossover with a, our friends in that kind of fine art world as well. cartoonists can exhibit cartoonists can sail work in a gallery setting, they can do some of these other things as well, particularly as the relationship with the place can adorn those, which I'm sure will come to I'm getting ahead of myself about the problems of late with the newspapers. But a in the run up to 2014. Here in Scotland, there was an independence referendum about whether Scotland was going to leave the United Kingdom or not. And then in the run up to that IQ at the an exhibition a of political cartoons from from all over the world about that topic, and toured it to various different locations that are in Europe, we exhibited that the Guardians headquarters in London, and we went to the the big center for European cartooning and attend call centers llama tale in France, a couple of locations in Catalonia and Spain, which comparable to Scotland has its own independence movement. And the end actually ended up showing some of the cartoons in the Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh. After the whole thing was over, I hasten to add to that didn't like the idea of having a garden exhibition before. Before the vote. A afterwards they were okay with it. So that was really the beginning of like, I traveled up until that point, I'd met a lot of cartoonists, but I was the first time that I kind of got the bug for like a bag, sort of cross border, international team, that project. And then an actual fact. I was doing this, I was on a podcast promoting that particular project. And somebody asked me a sort of speculative question about what's next? Or what do you see yourself doing in the future or something like that. And I mentioned, some organizations that I admired, including Caitlyn Street, network, international, CRNA, who I was aware of by that time, and I've had some sort of social media interaction with not knowing that the person that looked after that social media was like me, based in the UK. And that organization is an NGO in the United States. But at that time, they had a, an officer here in the UK, who was doing their social media and so on. So she listened to this podcast, she forwarded the podcast to a my predecessor, the executive director at the time and said, This guy's talking about us by the by the law. And then for reasons which again, we'll come to later on in the conversation, I'm sure there was a big summit meeting in 2015 2015 was a very significant year for cartoonists all over the world. I was invited to that. And, and then by the end of that meeting, they had decided that they wanted to adopt some more a cartoonist space outside the USA on to their board of directors. So that was the the we end in to what I'm doing now. So there's no place for JC but in my experience, podcasts are life changing experiences, so I expect something massive to come out with us.

Jesse: 14:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'll do my best. I'll try not to let you down. So what when did you start to like fall into politics and get into politics? Was that always something? Did you grow up with a family that was fairly like politically inclined,

Unknown: 14:55

it was not discussed. It was not discussed. And again, that was one of the things we actually talked about. Back in 2014, on on the show that I mentioned was the fact that and that's part of the world anyway, but I love a, the those years running up to 2014, because it was probably the best part of two years of campaigning actually before a before the referendum it, it turned the whole country into politics junkies in a way. And I would say, you know, up until that point, I was broadly of the left. In a previous life, I was the president of the trade union for visual artists, and scald. So my political identity, I suppose the one of them, I've never been a member of any party. And but I'm comfortable describing myself as a trade unionist, A, which puts me puts me on the left, for sure.

Jesse: 15:54

For us, in the US, because you can is it? Are you familiar with our politics? Is there a way you could translate that to our

Unknown: 16:03

so it's basically organized, organized labor of faith. It's so so so the Labour Party, which you will have here, dove in the UK, which is the kind of mean, a left left of center political party they've been in and out of government. It's not a like for like comparison, but it's the closest we've got to the Democrats. So the two parties that have historically kind of alternated in government in the UK, a broadly speaking or the Conservatives are version of the Republicans and the Labour Party or version of the Democrats. But but the party the clues in the name, it came out of the trade unionist movement. So it was founded by organized working people. So the so the the ACU the Scottish Artists Union, as a representative, membership body, made up of visual artists of all disciplines. This is certainly not just for cartoonists, it's painters and sculptors and ceramicists screen planners and all sorts of visual artists is about I believe I'm writing seen as the best part of 2000 members right now, which doesn't sound like a lot. But that's essentially the majority of the working population in that field, and school. And it's one of the things I'm proudest of, in my whole life, been involved in with the SAU, and become a model. There's other other trade unions specifically for artists that come down the pike later than kind of a duplicated their structure. So that I'd already had so I was I was I was a campaigner, and politically engaged, from that point of view already part of what you do. In terms of trade unionism, as you engage with government, I'd already sort of met with ministers that are they've been to the parliament in Scotland and spoken on behalf of artists and so on. So I was already kind of doing politics already from from that point of view. And then, as I say, the referendum happened that made everybody you're by definition, when you're presented with a binary choice like that, which it was, it was a yes or no question. Everybody has to pick a site, literally. So everybody had a side, everybody had an opinion. And it was, you know, the big topic of conversation, as I say, for the bass part of two years. And you'll hear some people say that it shouldn't have happened. And you'll hear some people say that. And in the year sense, the gains that were made, were wasted. And so on. I think it was an obviously I'm biased, but I think it was a marvelous thing. A mess those years. I really do. There was a possible the police, Scotland feel like it was the center of the universe for a little while there. And they, I think, and again, I'm not shy about it. I was quoted in The Guardian the next morning, so anyone that wants to go back and look at will know how I voted. I voted. Yes. We lost my court in the paper on the Saturday. Again, I'll keep it clean him, we soiled ourselves. Let's put it that way. By thank our state in no small measure has kind of been borne out in the year sense because of course since then, Brexit has happened. And one of the things that we were A told prior to the Scottish referendum was that our membership of the European Union would be would be forfeit. If Scotland were to leave the UK, which was an EU member state, we would crash out of the European Union. And it would take years to get back in. And so many people believe that and part of the reason it was a no to Scottish independence is because of the premium that Scottish people have had an A, in the regard that they had for, for being in the EU. And that was born out a few years later, because Scotland overwhelmingly voted virtually by the same margins to oppose Brexit and to stay in the EU. So that kind of confirmed the theory that what, what the majority of Scottish people wanted to do was to keep everything together. And they went out. And if you glance at the headlines in this part of the world these days, it's one case after another in terms of supply chains, labor shortages, empty shelves, and stores, petrol being bought in a panic. All sorts of stuff, which, at the heart of it all, is the fact that we're not in the in the European Union anymore. So we'll see, our government here has said that the plan to have another referendum in the lifetime of the new parliament, because we just had an election this year, there was a new parliament later than me. So within the next five years, we're told, and we will have another another goal. From my point of view, I just thought that means I get to take a cartoons all over the place again. Because last because after the last couple of years of going nowhere can see nobody a for obvious reasons. I'm not I'm not disputing that it was for a good reason. But a but I can't I miss a mess the road. Definitely after the last couple of years.

Jesse: 22:07

Absolutely. So

Unknown: 22:12

in my opinion, they are, like you hear sometimes about ecologists talk about particular species that are are important to keep an eye on because they're an indicator of the health of the whole system. In something like a frog, you know, frogs, frogs and toads and amphibians are particularly vulnerable to change in the environment. Bective ality of a cartoonists to work to express themselves on troubled is a good indicator of the health of a democracy. The metaphor is used an awful lot is Canadian, the coal mine, I'm not a fan of that because the Canadians were, by their nature, the disposable, a, I don't think we're disposable. But I do think that we're one of the first to feel the effects. If something happens in society, whether it's the rise of an authoritarian or populist government or the chilling effect of a an extremist or a fundamentalist movement. The cartoonists are going to be among the first people to kind of hear about it. Precisely because what they create, as for the most part, by its nature, the same thing disrespectful and disruptive. And if you're someone who wants to exert control, and then one of the things you'll find objectionable is that kind of contrarian ism and, and the mockery one of the bits of snark, we get all the time as no cartoon ever took down a dictator, which is probably true, but my response to that always is but why did they have such a bloody problem with them? Because the because they definitely do. Yeah.

Jesse: 24:30

So how are we doing then? If if you know you talk about political cartoons being this sort of democracy barometer happ how is the world's health right now if we were to look at it like are

Unknown: 24:48

not so good? Not so good. Last week, I was say one of the the chairs level meeting, we convene the place cartoning Global Forum, we took a break last year because of the pandemic. And this year, obviously, many people still couldn't travel. So we decided to do something online instead. And that was one of the questions I asked, and how does everybody feel about, about the state of democracy where they are and the room, inverted commas, the virtual room, you had people from Malaysia, Rwanda, a people in Hong Kong, as well as people in the UK, the USA, Switzerland, the two ends of the spectrum, if you like, and nobody was happy, everybody had something in that they were wanting the boat. And one of the first things I did a when I assumed a stewardship of our program at Crni, as I pulled our, our stakeholders, and particularly our a regional representatives, we've got cartoonists, all over the place in on every continent who are all examples out of cartoonists, but they also a volunteer to, to verify and help share information on our behalf. And at the beginning of 2020, obviously, prior to the pandemic, the chief anxiety that was being expressed a buy them was was criminalisation. So if you'd asked the same question a few years prior, the number one, anxiety, I'm sure would have been Taylorism. But things have changed in the last few years, for sure. And right now, if a cartoonist is concerned, it's probably because that is either a law specifically or a government program more broadly, that they think will ultimately result in them either finding it much, much harder to do what they do, or leave them vulnerable to being specifically targeted and potentially criminalized. Obviously, a real corrupt A out of control dictator, can put anybody the lake away for any reason at all. They can make up a case and and put people away if that's what they want to do. But if you look at somewhere like Turkey, we are since the coup in 2016, or the attempted coup, I should say. And the leading on of presidential powers, the court after that emergency powers in the first instance. And then they had a referendum, granted more powers to the presidency. They had the one President Erdogan, they're engaged in what you may call industrial scale, pursuit of dissenting opinion, academics, media workers, and so on. And that is definitely included cartoonists including his least favorite cartoon is three, tried on two other occasions to dictate to Gordon and finally was able to do so in a case arising after the cure. So all of that, of course, intensified and worsened by the pandemic because it's a really good excuse for emergency powers to be invoked. It's a really good pretext for curtailing certain freedoms. When public health is such an acute concern, it's very easy to label criticism of the government as misinformation or even disinformation. So, in the early months of the pandemic, ourselves and a couple of other organizations cartoonists organizations fail, that there was actually a potential disaster in the making. And, and we put a kind of emergency statement, you know, seeing everybody really needs to be on our toes. A through this whole thing, however long it lasts, it wasn't clear at that stage, how long we will be dealing with lockdowns, the travel ban, travel restrictions and everything else. But it felt as if we weren't getting They're entering a new phase where the the worst authoritarian impulses A would be given almost carte blanche in your to pursue whatever they whatever they wished in terms of targeting critics and opponents. It's not been an extinction level event. Your aim cartoonists still exist in reasonable numbers, a and we still want to do what we do. And but we've we're only human, we're the same as everybody else we've we've been through the same kind of anxieties, economic consequences, a jobs have been lost possessions have been lost family members have been lost, things like that have had to be had to be dealt with an old Those situations are stressful enough if it's bad enough, without having to also think at the same time that in actual fact, what I do, or the way I choose to express myself could actually be you'll kind of get fazed, though. Because at times like these, that can input as well.

Jesse: 31:26

And we saw this, even with the New York Times, right? A New York Times, two years ago stopped printing political cartoons. I mean, what's it say when a media organization like the New York Times, which touts the free press and freedom of the press, and freedom of speech? cancels something like a political cartoon?

Unknown: 31:52

Yeah, so I'll just for the benefit of anyone familiar, very briefly. Yeah. So the, the, the, and I'm going to be really pedantic. But it's the it's the International, an online New York Times that used cartoons, the domestic print edition of The New York Times, I don't believe has had any cartoons on it for years. But the Online Edition and the International Edition that. And so what happened was they took a certain amount of cartoon material from two regular contributors, and then supplemented that with material from syndicates. And a syndicated cartoon appeared, which portrayed a Benjamin Netanyahu as a dog on a lead led by a Donald Trump and who was kind of cast in the role of a kind of a blind man being led by this dog. And because it used a start of David and because it used a yarmulke and because whenever you compare humans to animals, and you're always gonna run the risk of a accusations of racism when you let when you figuratively dehumanize anybody, and even though that's a trope that goes back, you know, to the very beginnings of of cartooning. So those three things combined, and left the cartoon in a very bad light. The the editors involved essentially kind of tacitly admitted that they hadn't looked at it before they put it in, or that they had or didn't have the capacity to monitor everything, every every contribution that came in by these kind of means. So the apologize, the bigger the cartoon, the Syndicate, syndicated cartoons got dropped. And in pretty short order, the two cartoonists they actually had a on staff so to speak, we're also dropped. So within the space of about a fortnight or maybe three weeks, they went from having a reasonable amount of cartoon content every week to absolutely none. And the story was that would be permanent, that they were done with cartoons. So to cartoonists for sites for cartoon that they didn't draw. And the immediate response from from our community was, you would never even over the worst, most invective laden opinion column, get a devote your colonists, right. Stroke, it just wouldn't have. You wouldn't for the sake of widen I don't know. insensitively taken photograph, a invasion of somebody's privacy. See, for example, get rid of every photographer. And one bad guy, one bad cartoon got through. And now we're done with cartoons, we can't run that risk ever again, we're just done with it. So a lot of people would have the opinion that in actual fact, they were just taking the opportunity to get rid of something that they had wanted to get rid of, for quite some time and just couldn't figure out how to do it. And less controversy actually handed them a really convenient moment in which to do it. Because cartoons, relatively speaking, I would see particularly ones that are done in specifically for for a given outlet, send the kid the cartoons, by their nature, because they're available to multiple outlets, a cost less, the feed is leaving these smaller cartoons that are produced for specific outlets and are more expensive. And by by column and cheese, if you want to put it that way, a cartoon, I think is a relatively expensive thing. A to have. So they were perhaps just fed up spending money on cartoons. We know that media outlets everywhere, are having a really hard time getting people to continue to pay for news, we've all become so accustomed, particularly online, to not paying anything at all, and still being informed in both with hard news and with opinion and everything else. So it's an easy cost to cut if the coffers are bare. And another argument that was suggested was that editors increasingly, are just kind of fed up having to defend or have the argument with readers over cartoons when they do cause a controversy. So the question then becomes, are the more controversial than they used to be? I don't think it's so much that as certainly in my part of the world, with Brexit, certainly in your part of the world with Trump, and things are polarized in a way that they weren't before. And if you're less than two, something like that, okay, you'll who runs a big syndicate in the USA, he describes the Trump years as being incredibly difficult because editors of a, of a newspaper that served a conservative readership, didn't want to run anti Trump cartoons then want to run a anything critical of the president, even though in any given year prior. American cartoonist would kind of reserve the right to draw the president, if they weren't drawing the president. That that the only explanation for that would be that he the President was exceptionally boring and non disruptive to the point of absence. Presidents take action, good, bad, indifferent, and cartoonists draw them. And the cartoon is we're just drawing the guy that happened to be the president, for the most part, not universally, for the most part, I think it's safe to see, most cartoonists look to Donald Trump in the beginning and rub their hands and when we're gonna have some fun now. Because look at how he deals with people. Look at how he communicates, look at how he runs his affairs. I

Jesse: 38:53

mean, he's almost a caricature, without

Unknown: 38:57

the, you know, you don't have to be a particularly skilled observational caricaturists to convey Trump to someone. And you just need to make sure it's in full color. If it's in full color, you don't even have to have facial features. You can just pick that orange swatch, apply it liberally. And everyone knows what you're talking about. A but by the end, they were Cana done because, first of all, it was monotonous. It was essentially the same thing day after day after day for years. And on the other side, there was just this extraordinary pushback. We are any criticism of the President was suddenly fundamentally automatic. And that's a completely boneheaded. An inverse reading of as an outsider a new way of my understanding of of the First Amendment. If you can't criticize the place, what the hell? A is all for? Right? That's the whole point you guys got away from monarchy? Yeah, you've got to, you've got to reserve the right to be able, without fear or favor to see the game charges and ass. Right? That's, that's, that's fundamental. So that went away or seemed to go away all of a sudden. But, you know, we'll see whether those days return or not, we're kind of out of it to a certain extent now. And we're now kind of taking stock, obviously, of, of what happened in during those years. The kind of the culture war, you know, a that we talked about, is definitely keenly felt by cartoonists precisely because you can't edit a cartoon, the way that you can a piece of writing. An editor can step in and remove a warped align a paragraph, and get something in shape before it sees them. And then after it's been published, you can make further amendments and connections. And you can sometimes do that in a way that maybe isn't even noticed. Very, very hard to edit a cartoon. Unless you've got a really good relationship with a cartoonist after the fact, if it's, if it's too hot, the only thing you can really do is just take it down, you can't really, you know, be seen be plastering things over, or you're in some other way. bouldering. And then there's the way that cartons are consumed. I call them a piece of writing. A deep dive has to be consumed and digested, and it takes time and an array or laser argument and the reader consumes it over several minutes, and then comes to a conclusion about how they feel about the thing they've just read. A good cartoon is consumed in seconds. Hopefully, if the cartoonist is making a strong point, and graphically, is in command of the medium, then the cartoon is comprehended rapidly. And so it arrives in your your mind, almost before you've had the chance to unpack it. So it's empty, then, in a way, it can be shocking. And that's where the the perception of insult and offense comes from, I think is the fact that a really, really, really good strong cartoon can just kind of hit you, between the eyes in a way that even the most amazing prose doesn't.

Jesse: 43:16

Yeah, it's a certain way. Cartoons are kind of the purest form of freedom of speech, because they don't have that ability to edit. Like you

Unknown: 43:25

said, they're up there, you know, it's up there. I wouldn't say we're, you know, we're not maybe right at the top. But it's, it's definitely powerful, and unique and unique. There's a unique thing, the, you know, the interplay between words and images. And how the two, the two, together can something see something that either one of them alone couldn't do. And and then as I say, there's just that's just the fact that you're, you're it's a two way thing is the cartoonist on one end of the line, and that's the reader that the other and I think the reason that they are because the easy thing to see is, is the verb to make people laugh. I don't actually think that's true. A lot of the time, people will laugh. But as we've seen in recent years, you know, political cartoons can be can be dreadfully serious and earnest and outraged. And the intention isn't necessarily to make somebody laugh. It's to connect with them and say, I feel the same way you

Jesse: 44:28

do. Yeah.

Unknown: 44:31

So if you turn the page and you see the cartoon, or you go online, you open up an app or wherever you see the cartoon, and it strikes you. You don't you don't feel alone. You're like, oh, god, there's somebody else out there that feels the same way about that as I do. And you're the reader. You're kind of relieved of your burden. And away yeah. And, and conversely, if it if it strikes you as the opposite. Then these days anyway, group with the immediately goes to I can't believe you think that, you know, a? How dare you? How dare you suggest that? What can I do to see less of this? Get rid of this? Silence? That's so

Jesse: 45:16

yeah, you know, I want to get into like what what might be the limits of political cartoons but if you like this would be a good follow up question this would be you know, we just had the Facebook whistleblower I don't know if you've followed that story at all but yeah, basically wherever Facebook goes, if you can whatever market they're entering you can guess what political where the next political turmoil will happen. And so I'm curious as to what your perspective is on the impact of social media on democracy and and in particular, the impact social media might have with political cartoons.

Unknown: 46:02

It's huge. For those of us who are deprived of a mainstream media outlet, which these days is the majority. Um, social media is essential, because it's the means by which you build an audience. So some of the cartoon some of the cartoonists that we deal with, particularly in the in the Global South, they are essentially Facebook cartoonists, and that's how they reach people, that's how they, they gain a following. If they're making any money at all, it's only been because people have seen the work first on Facebook, and then perhaps farther down the line are willing to pony up for a book or gotten an exhibition or, or, you know, put some money in some other way. But a great great many of the cartoonists we deal with now. Like I said before, far more similar to a fine artist, or a, even an activist. They're just producing the work. And whether or not ever makes any money is another discussion, the thing they're doing in the first place as they're producing the work, because that's what they want to do, for whatever reason. And again, as we discussed, or as well, as a lot of people discussed this week, the week we were recording, and all there was the whistleblower, but there was the outage, yeah. Right, a for six hours. For the people who live in, in, in places where Facebook, actually as the internet. That was their whole digital infrastructure going. And there are places in the world where Facebook essentially as the enemy, particularly in Africa, but also in Asia, so turn into a media blackout. So effectively, effectively a media blackout. And the anxiety that that must have caused the can't imagine, particularly for people who are in situations of displacement. We are a timely information is a matter of life and death. And it's a strong argument for why the thing should be broken up. Because we can't have we can't have that happen. We can have that happen. We can't have whole nations lose their ability a to communicate. And when it comes to the cartoonists what we've seen as of course, the cartoons, fall under the big York or the or the purview of the AI of the algorithms, and so on. And a big, big issue right now as the extent to which the hate speech measures don't actually successfully differentiate between people who are putting forward a speech and people that are opposing hate speech. There's been instances of, you know, avowedly anti Nazi, anti KKK cartoons. They get struck from Facebook, because by nature of being an anti Nazi cartoon, there was a Nazi. Right, right. Or because it's an anti KKK cartoon, there was a guy in a bedsheet and but the AI just sees swastika, or whatever other iconography and just strikes it, it's gone. And then then it's down to you to go through the appeals process and try and get it. Try and get it back up again. Also, Facebook users politically engaged Facebook users are very savvy. We've got Many reports again, particularly from from Asia, of cartoonists who know that their cartoons are being if you like disingenuously flagged as offensive or a hate speech or what have you by their political opponents, essentially, because enough, because it reaches a critical mass enough people complain in the same way quickly enough. It doesn't even have to be that high a number in the system always seems to err on the side of caution. And so the stuff will come down. And then as I see, it's down, then to the a the cartoonist to kind of fade the corner and appeal and try and get the material back up again. Yeah. So it's, and this is the perennial complaint. I'm far from unique. Yeah, but the complaint, the complaint essentially boils down to, it's like, it's a private company that conducts itself as such. But in terms of how it the function that it actually serves, A is no equivalent to our public utility. Yeah. And as the whistleblower was pointing out, the measures that are taken to reduce harm, and so on, are invariably inadequate, and, or even, you know, disingenuous, it's a short to improve their PR, by natural fact that people who are who are most damaged by it, are the least protected.

Jesse: 51:56

If I'm being honest, I'd never really put much thought to political cartoon before this conversation. But now, I can't help but think back on the handful of cartoons that really stopped me in my tracks, and wonder about the cartoonists behind it. Next week, you'll hear the last half of this conversation where Terry shares some of the stories of the cartoonists that cartoonist Rights Network international works with. They are tales of brave people working for nickels, and risking life and liberty, for the privilege to speak truth to power in a single drawing. If you're like me, you'll never look at a political cartoon the same way after. This has been another episode of making change and I hope you've enjoyed listening to it. As much as I've enjoyed making it. As I work to make this project more sustainable, your support would mean the world to me. If we haven't met before, where we haven't talked in a while please wave hello on social hell let me know if there's a mission close to your heart that you'd like cover. And please don't forget to hit that subscribe button. And join me again next week. As we work to put a microphone to the stories that matter.