{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.44,"endTime":2.84,"body":"Heads up, this episode includes spoilers."},{"startTime":6.292,"endTime":8.382,"body":"Couple years back,"},{"startTime":6.292,"endTime":8.382,"body":"the Brazilian filmmaker"},{"startTime":8.466,"endTime":9.961,"body":"Kleber Mendonça Filho"},{"startTime":10.045,"endTime":12.898,"body":"was wrapping up his documentary"},{"startTime":10.045,"endTime":12.898,"body":"\u003ci\u003ePictures of Ghosts\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":12.982,"endTime":17.278,"body":"a look back at the movie theaters"},{"startTime":12.982,"endTime":17.278,"body":"of his youth in his hometown of Recife"},{"startTime":17.362,"endTime":21.518,"body":"and suddenly he found himself"},{"startTime":17.362,"endTime":21.518,"body":"writing the script for his next movie,"},{"startTime":21.602,"endTime":23.778,"body":"also set in 1970s Brazil,"},{"startTime":23.862,"endTime":25.505,"body":"a sometimes violent thriller"},{"startTime":25.588,"endTime":28.798,"body":"but with the same bittersweet vibe"},{"startTime":25.588,"endTime":28.798,"body":"as his documentary."},{"startTime":28.922,"endTime":32.84,"body":"I think first and foremost,"},{"startTime":28.922,"endTime":32.84,"body":"I wanted to play with genre."},{"startTime":33.44,"endTime":39.158,"body":"If I have to go brutal, I would have to"},{"startTime":33.44,"endTime":39.158,"body":"bring a lot of love into the story"},{"startTime":39.242,"endTime":45.118,"body":"and a lot of affection"},{"startTime":39.242,"endTime":45.118,"body":"and great people hanging out together."},{"startTime":45.202,"endTime":49.478,"body":"And all of that would be this thriller"},{"startTime":45.202,"endTime":49.478,"body":"that I had in mind."},{"startTime":49.562,"endTime":53.106,"body":"And I think all the research"},{"startTime":49.562,"endTime":53.106,"body":"that I did for \u003ci\u003ePictures of Ghosts,\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":53.19,"endTime":57.505,"body":"looking at old photographs, audio tapes,"},{"startTime":57.589,"endTime":60.998,"body":"it put me in the right state of mind"},{"startTime":57.589,"endTime":60.998,"body":"to write the script."},{"startTime":61.082,"endTime":65.358,"body":"Except, as he wrote, it occurred to him"},{"startTime":61.082,"endTime":65.358,"body":"this wasn't really a movie about the past."},{"startTime":65.482,"endTime":70.558,"body":"I kind of realized that a lot of the logic"},{"startTime":65.482,"endTime":70.558,"body":"that went into the script,"},{"startTime":70.642,"endTime":72.758,"body":"which is set in 1977,"},{"startTime":72.842,"endTime":79.113,"body":"was actually coming from the political"},{"startTime":72.842,"endTime":79.113,"body":"times that we went through in Brazil"},{"startTime":79.197,"endTime":81.638,"body":"with the last president"},{"startTime":79.197,"endTime":81.638,"body":"who is in jail now."},{"startTime":81.762,"endTime":83.878,"body":"Who was not at the time"},{"startTime":81.762,"endTime":83.878,"body":"when you were writing this."},{"startTime":83.962,"endTime":85.814,"body":"He was still in power, Bolsonaro."},{"startTime":85.897,"endTime":87.938,"body":"He was president. He was still in power."},{"startTime":88.022,"endTime":91.598,"body":"You know, the way he looked at government,"},{"startTime":88.022,"endTime":91.598,"body":"he basically wanted to bring back"},{"startTime":91.722,"endTime":95.358,"body":"the good old days"},{"startTime":91.722,"endTime":95.358,"body":"of the military dictatorship in the '70s."},{"startTime":95.482,"endTime":101.24,"body":"So I was writing a film about the '70s,"},{"startTime":95.482,"endTime":101.24,"body":"but with the logic of contemporary Brazil."},{"startTime":103.32,"endTime":105.578,"body":"The result is \u003ci\u003eThe Secret Agent.\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":105.662,"endTime":109.838,"body":"The movie is cool, absurd"},{"startTime":105.662,"endTime":109.838,"body":"and harrowing as '70s Brazil"},{"startTime":109.922,"endTime":111.534,"body":"and right now."},{"startTime":112.59,"endTime":116.538,"body":"It's the story of Armando."},{"startTime":112.59,"endTime":116.538,"body":"Once he was a research professor,"},{"startTime":116.622,"endTime":120.208,"body":"now he's on the run from"},{"startTime":116.622,"endTime":120.208,"body":"a government official who wants him dead."},{"startTime":120.292,"endTime":124.268,"body":"So he's living under a fake identity"},{"startTime":120.292,"endTime":124.268,"body":"with a bunch of lovable political outcasts"},{"startTime":124.352,"endTime":128.468,"body":"in a Brazil where dictatorship has"},{"startTime":124.352,"endTime":128.468,"body":"made everything weird and dangerous."},{"startTime":128.552,"endTime":132.18,"body":"From the corrupt cops who mistake"},{"startTime":128.552,"endTime":132.18,"body":"a Holocaust survivor for a Nazi,"},{"startTime":132.264,"endTime":136.047,"body":"to the roadside gas station with a"},{"startTime":132.264,"endTime":136.047,"body":"random corpse lying near the pumps,"},{"startTime":136.131,"endTime":138.573,"body":"to his own stabs,"},{"startTime":136.131,"endTime":138.573,"body":"in the middle of all this,"},{"startTime":138.656,"endTime":140.898,"body":"at having a relationship with his son"},{"startTime":140.982,"endTime":142.181,"body":"and his past."},{"startTime":144.27,"endTime":146.948,"body":"I'm Rico Gagliano,"},{"startTime":144.27,"endTime":146.948,"body":"welcome back to the MUBI Podcast."},{"startTime":147.032,"endTime":149.748,"body":"MUBI is the global film company"},{"startTime":147.032,"endTime":149.748,"body":"that champions great cinema."},{"startTime":149.832,"endTime":152.148,"body":"On this show, we tell you"},{"startTime":149.832,"endTime":152.148,"body":"the stories behind great cinema."},{"startTime":152.272,"endTime":153.908,"body":"Season 11 is coming soon."},{"startTime":153.992,"endTime":156.082,"body":"Meanwhile, another special episode here."},{"startTime":156.165,"endTime":158.716,"body":"It's my interview with"},{"startTime":156.165,"endTime":158.716,"body":"Kleber Mendonça Filho"},{"startTime":158.8,"endTime":160.465,"body":"and his star Wagner Moura"},{"startTime":160.549,"endTime":162.288,"body":"about \u003ci\u003eThe Secret Agent\u003c/i\u003e."},{"startTime":162.372,"endTime":165.588,"body":"The movie is up for four Oscars"},{"startTime":162.372,"endTime":165.588,"body":"this month, including Best Picture"},{"startTime":165.672,"endTime":167.168,"body":"and Best Actor for Moura."},{"startTime":167.252,"endTime":171.188,"body":"It's in cinemas right now and coming soon"},{"startTime":167.252,"endTime":171.188,"body":"to MUBI in the UK, Ireland,"},{"startTime":171.272,"endTime":173.348,"body":"Latin America and many other countries."},{"startTime":173.432,"endTime":176.618,"body":"The movie totally works as a thriller,"},{"startTime":173.432,"endTime":176.618,"body":"but I wanted to learn more"},{"startTime":176.702,"endTime":178.707,"body":"about the sly references and metaphors"},{"startTime":178.79,"endTime":181.388,"body":"you can just tell"},{"startTime":178.79,"endTime":181.388,"body":"probably carry extra meaning"},{"startTime":181.472,"endTime":183.008,"body":"for a Brazilian audience."},{"startTime":183.092,"endTime":186.588,"body":"So you're gonna hear me get a primer"},{"startTime":183.092,"endTime":186.588,"body":"from these guys on some of that,"},{"startTime":186.672,"endTime":188.647,"body":"including the scene"},{"startTime":186.672,"endTime":188.647,"body":"everyone's talking about,"},{"startTime":188.731,"endTime":192.568,"body":"in which a disembodied leg"},{"startTime":188.731,"endTime":192.568,"body":"goes on a late night kicking spree."},{"startTime":192.652,"endTime":195.148,"body":"We also get a crash course"},{"startTime":192.652,"endTime":195.148,"body":"on the Brazilian music"},{"startTime":195.272,"endTime":196.828,"body":"that shaped their lives and work."},{"startTime":196.912,"endTime":200.708,"body":"But my first question went to Wagner,"},{"startTime":196.912,"endTime":200.708,"body":"who's become an international star"},{"startTime":200.792,"endTime":204.568,"body":"off roles in the Netflix series"},{"startTime":200.792,"endTime":204.568,"body":"\u003ci\u003eNarcos\u003c/i\u003e and the hit movie \u003ci\u003eCivil War,\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":204.652,"endTime":208.31,"body":"but hasn't been seen on screen"},{"startTime":204.652,"endTime":208.31,"body":"speaking much Portuguese lately."},{"startTime":212.91,"endTime":216.588,"body":"Wagner, my understanding is"},{"startTime":212.91,"endTime":216.588,"body":"you had not been acting"},{"startTime":216.672,"endTime":218.991,"body":"- in Brazilian films for a while."},{"startTime":216.672,"endTime":218.991,"body":"- Yeah, man."},{"startTime":219.075,"endTime":221.548,"body":"What about this script drew you back?"},{"startTime":221.632,"endTime":225.467,"body":"I can imagine 10,000 things,"},{"startTime":221.632,"endTime":225.467,"body":"but what what first struck you as like,"},{"startTime":225.551,"endTime":226.692,"body":"this is my return home?"},{"startTime":226.776,"endTime":229.788,"body":"Well, first of all,"},{"startTime":226.776,"endTime":229.788,"body":"it's Kleber himself, right?"},{"startTime":229.872,"endTime":231.188,"body":"I wanted to work with him."},{"startTime":231.312,"endTime":236.71,"body":"If Kleber was going to direct"},{"startTime":231.312,"endTime":236.71,"body":"a Disney movie, I would do it with him."},{"startTime":237.234,"endTime":238.508,"body":"I can't wait to see that film."},{"startTime":238.592,"endTime":240.43,"body":"Yeah, I can't wait"},{"startTime":238.592,"endTime":240.43,"body":"to see that either, but..."},{"startTime":242.408,"endTime":244.634,"body":"But no, but it was--"},{"startTime":244.718,"endTime":247.688,"body":"My conversation with him"},{"startTime":244.718,"endTime":247.688,"body":"started a long time ago."},{"startTime":247.772,"endTime":249.848,"body":"You know, I met Kleber a long time ago."},{"startTime":249.932,"endTime":253.508,"body":"I met Kleber in Cannes back in 2005."},{"startTime":249.932,"endTime":253.508,"body":"He was still a critic."},{"startTime":253.632,"endTime":258.148,"body":"Then I started to see his short films,"},{"startTime":253.632,"endTime":258.148,"body":"and I was like, really impressed."},{"startTime":258.232,"endTime":261.628,"body":"But then when I saw \u003ci\u003eNeighboring Sounds,\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":258.232,"endTime":261.628,"body":"I thought that I had seen"},{"startTime":261.712,"endTime":263.468,"body":"one of the greatest Brazilian films ever."},{"startTime":263.552,"endTime":269.148,"body":"And from that day on, I really, really"},{"startTime":263.552,"endTime":269.148,"body":"started to talk Kleber to,"},{"startTime":269.272,"endTime":271.27,"body":"so he could, we could work together."},{"startTime":271.354,"endTime":276.31,"body":"But then this time from 2018 till 2022"},{"startTime":276.99,"endTime":281.244,"body":"was when we kind of"},{"startTime":276.99,"endTime":281.244,"body":"got together as more like--"},{"startTime":281.34,"endTime":283.428,"body":"When we connected as friends"},{"startTime":283.512,"endTime":284.75,"body":"because of politics."},{"startTime":285.31,"endTime":288.712,"body":"Because we were both very"},{"startTime":285.31,"endTime":288.712,"body":"vocal against the government"},{"startTime":288.795,"endTime":293.148,"body":"and we were both suffering"},{"startTime":288.795,"endTime":293.148,"body":"the consequences of what we were doing."},{"startTime":293.272,"endTime":295.308,"body":"For those who don't know,"},{"startTime":293.272,"endTime":295.308,"body":"can you describe like,"},{"startTime":295.432,"endTime":297.828,"body":"what was happening to the two of you?"},{"startTime":297.952,"endTime":301.028,"body":"For any fascist government,"},{"startTime":297.952,"endTime":301.028,"body":"the first thing that they attack"},{"startTime":301.152,"endTime":305.128,"body":"is universities, art, journalism."},{"startTime":305.212,"endTime":309.668,"body":"So, and talk about myself"},{"startTime":305.212,"endTime":309.668,"body":"like I directed a film about this time,"},{"startTime":309.752,"endTime":310.908,"body":"about the dictatorship,"},{"startTime":310.992,"endTime":312.903,"body":"about the real character"},{"startTime":310.992,"endTime":312.903,"body":"called \u003ci\u003eMarighella,\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":312.986,"endTime":315.295,"body":"who was the leader of the resistance,"},{"startTime":315.379,"endTime":317.908,"body":"the armed resistance"},{"startTime":315.379,"endTime":317.908,"body":"against the dictatorship."},{"startTime":318.072,"endTime":321.37,"body":"The film premiered in Berlin 2019"},{"startTime":321.831,"endTime":325.713,"body":"and I could only release the film"},{"startTime":321.831,"endTime":325.713,"body":"in Brazil by the end of 2021"},{"startTime":325.797,"endTime":327.748,"body":"because they made it impossible,"},{"startTime":327.872,"endTime":331.468,"body":"the government made it impossible for me"},{"startTime":327.872,"endTime":331.468,"body":"to release my film in the country."},{"startTime":331.552,"endTime":333.028,"body":"And that was hardcore, man."},{"startTime":333.112,"endTime":334.724,"body":"It wasn't easy."},{"startTime":334.807,"endTime":337.658,"body":"So Kleber and I got together"},{"startTime":334.807,"endTime":337.658,"body":"in that moment"},{"startTime":337.742,"endTime":340.628,"body":"talking about, \"What can we do about it?\""},{"startTime":340.752,"endTime":344.9,"body":"So I think that the genesis of this film"},{"startTime":340.752,"endTime":344.9,"body":"is that time, you know,"},{"startTime":344.984,"endTime":346.468,"body":"and you can see that in the film."},{"startTime":346.552,"endTime":350.068,"body":"The film takes place in the '70s,"},{"startTime":346.552,"endTime":350.068,"body":"but it has a lot to say"},{"startTime":350.152,"endTime":352.948,"body":"about contemporary Brazil."},{"startTime":353.072,"endTime":356.888,"body":"Thankfully,"},{"startTime":353.072,"endTime":356.888,"body":"not that much right now anymore."},{"startTime":356.972,"endTime":358.698,"body":"Yeah, well, It's okay."},{"startTime":358.782,"endTime":363.758,"body":"There's plenty of other places that are"},{"startTime":358.782,"endTime":363.758,"body":"providing modern context for this."},{"startTime":363.842,"endTime":365.388,"body":"We'll get into that in a bit."},{"startTime":365.472,"endTime":370.34,"body":"I feel like your movies, Kleber,"},{"startTime":365.472,"endTime":370.34,"body":"are so, kind of, based in place and..."},{"startTime":370.424,"endTime":372.778,"body":"Especially your hometown of Recife."},{"startTime":372.862,"endTime":378.398,"body":"And there's a moment in the movie"},{"startTime":372.862,"endTime":378.398,"body":"that it felt to me as a non-Brazilian,"},{"startTime":378.482,"endTime":383.3,"body":"that is very important,"},{"startTime":378.482,"endTime":383.3,"body":"but I'm not sure of what the context is."},{"startTime":389.42,"endTime":393.318,"body":"A couple of the villains in the story"},{"startTime":389.42,"endTime":393.318,"body":"are grilling the hero, Armando,"},{"startTime":393.402,"endTime":397.938,"body":"and one of the guys folds a napkin"},{"startTime":393.402,"endTime":397.938,"body":"into a triangle and he goes..."},{"startTime":400.66,"endTime":402.458,"body":"\"This is the map of Brazil.\""},{"startTime":402.542,"endTime":406.763,"body":"And then he draws a line across the center"},{"startTime":402.542,"endTime":406.763,"body":"of the napkin and says..."},{"startTime":410.201,"endTime":412.398,"body":"\"Down below this line, that's Brazil."},{"startTime":412.482,"endTime":414.46,"body":"\"Up here is the North."},{"startTime":415.14,"endTime":416.542,"body":"\"To each his place.\""},{"startTime":418.654,"endTime":422.364,"body":"What politically and culturally"},{"startTime":418.654,"endTime":422.364,"body":"does that line demark."},{"startTime":423.007,"endTime":425.838,"body":"Either at the time or now."},{"startTime":423.007,"endTime":425.838,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":425.922,"endTime":429.858,"body":"And by the way, Recife, and where many of"},{"startTime":425.922,"endTime":429.858,"body":"the characters are based, is in the North."},{"startTime":429.982,"endTime":436.518,"body":"It's the classic political economic"},{"startTime":429.982,"endTime":436.518,"body":"division that exists in so many countries"},{"startTime":436.602,"endTime":440.418,"body":"and also in the world"},{"startTime":436.602,"endTime":440.418,"body":"in terms of the North and South."},{"startTime":440.502,"endTime":442.778,"body":"Sometimes depending on the country,"},{"startTime":442.862,"endTime":447.7,"body":"the South is poorer"},{"startTime":442.862,"endTime":447.7,"body":"and the North is richer, wealthier."},{"startTime":448.217,"endTime":451.958,"body":"Sometimes the North is wealthier"},{"startTime":448.217,"endTime":451.958,"body":"and the South is poorer."},{"startTime":452.042,"endTime":455.698,"body":"In the case of Brazil,"},{"startTime":452.042,"endTime":455.698,"body":"I really think that the whole country"},{"startTime":455.782,"endTime":461.378,"body":"was put together in the wrong way,"},{"startTime":455.782,"endTime":461.378,"body":"almost like a Lego that didn't quite fit,"},{"startTime":461.462,"endTime":464.06,"body":"but people declared it finished anyway."},{"startTime":464.86,"endTime":468.46,"body":"I come from the Northeast,"},{"startTime":464.86,"endTime":468.46,"body":"myself and Wagner, in fact"},{"startTime":469.02,"endTime":473.407,"body":"and there are separations"},{"startTime":469.02,"endTime":473.407,"body":"which persist to this day,"},{"startTime":473.49,"endTime":479.678,"body":"from big media being focused on"},{"startTime":473.49,"endTime":479.678,"body":"the Southeast, Rio and Sao Paulo,"},{"startTime":479.761,"endTime":484.314,"body":"to the way that the Southeast"},{"startTime":479.761,"endTime":484.314,"body":"looks at the Northeast,"},{"startTime":484.397,"endTime":486.138,"body":"the way that we look at them."},{"startTime":486.222,"endTime":491.098,"body":"One of the ideas in the film is"},{"startTime":486.222,"endTime":491.098,"body":"that this corrupt government official,"},{"startTime":491.222,"endTime":493.358,"body":"who also happens to be a businessman,"},{"startTime":493.442,"endTime":500.418,"body":"he doesn't really understand or accept"},{"startTime":493.442,"endTime":500.418,"body":"a research center in the Northeast"},{"startTime":500.502,"endTime":504.658,"body":"because he was always taught to believe"},{"startTime":500.502,"endTime":504.658,"body":"that the Northeast is regional."},{"startTime":504.742,"endTime":508.738,"body":"It would never be national"},{"startTime":504.742,"endTime":508.738,"body":"or much less international."},{"startTime":508.862,"endTime":512.078,"body":"- It's the sticks."},{"startTime":508.862,"endTime":512.078,"body":"- It's the sticks, it's the sticks."},{"startTime":512.162,"endTime":515.86,"body":"And that's how the main character"},{"startTime":512.162,"endTime":515.86,"body":"is treated, basically."},{"startTime":516.62,"endTime":519.678,"body":"And that's the basis"},{"startTime":516.62,"endTime":519.678,"body":"of everything that happens"},{"startTime":519.762,"endTime":522.058,"body":"and all the persecution that he suffered."},{"startTime":522.142,"endTime":524.218,"body":"You're both from that area,"},{"startTime":524.342,"endTime":526.098,"body":"I mean, is that still--"},{"startTime":524.342,"endTime":526.098,"body":"Does that persist today?"},{"startTime":526.222,"endTime":527.738,"body":"It persists in many ways."},{"startTime":527.822,"endTime":531.378,"body":"But of course, the Northeast is"},{"startTime":527.822,"endTime":531.378,"body":"very strong culturally,"},{"startTime":531.502,"endTime":533.658,"body":"you know, literature and cinema and music."},{"startTime":534.617,"endTime":536.968,"body":"For example,"},{"startTime":534.617,"endTime":536.968,"body":"Lula comes from the Northeast."},{"startTime":537.052,"endTime":538.107,"body":"Your current president?"},{"startTime":538.191,"endTime":542.048,"body":"Yeah, the current president,"},{"startTime":538.191,"endTime":542.048,"body":"serving now his third term."},{"startTime":542.132,"endTime":547.568,"body":"So for many years,"},{"startTime":542.132,"endTime":547.568,"body":"there was a lot of rejection to the fact"},{"startTime":547.652,"endTime":551.888,"body":"that the presidential candidate"},{"startTime":547.652,"endTime":551.888,"body":"came from the Northeast."},{"startTime":551.972,"endTime":556.528,"body":"Not only did he come from the Northeast,"},{"startTime":551.972,"endTime":556.528,"body":"but he was a left-wing leader for Brazil"},{"startTime":556.612,"endTime":558.208,"body":"and coming from the Northeast."},{"startTime":558.292,"endTime":563.478,"body":"So he had, and the country had,"},{"startTime":558.292,"endTime":563.478,"body":"to overcome a lot of these prejudices."},{"startTime":563.562,"endTime":565.105,"body":"- I see."},{"startTime":563.562,"endTime":565.105,"body":"- So."},{"startTime":565.189,"endTime":570.248,"body":"It is a cultural and political reading"},{"startTime":565.189,"endTime":570.248,"body":"that the film gives you,"},{"startTime":570.332,"endTime":573.33,"body":"but it's not too hard to imagine."},{"startTime":574.01,"endTime":578.968,"body":"Maybe you can adapt your own version"},{"startTime":574.01,"endTime":578.968,"body":"for the US or for France, Italy"},{"startTime":579.052,"endTime":580.848,"body":"or any other country, you know?"},{"startTime":580.932,"endTime":582.067,"body":"Sure. Although it's interesting,"},{"startTime":582.15,"endTime":584.598,"body":"the idea that the sticks"},{"startTime":582.15,"endTime":584.598,"body":"would be where the left leaning people"},{"startTime":584.682,"endTime":586.849,"body":"were coming from is kind of--"},{"startTime":584.682,"endTime":586.849,"body":"That's unique."},{"startTime":586.932,"endTime":589.048,"body":"That's a really interesting observation."},{"startTime":589.132,"endTime":595.57,"body":"But the Northeast, just to give you an"},{"startTime":589.132,"endTime":595.57,"body":"idea, is the one region with nine states"},{"startTime":596.25,"endTime":599.21,"body":"where Bolsonaro lost in all nine states."},{"startTime":599.97,"endTime":604.248,"body":"So he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder"},{"startTime":599.97,"endTime":604.248,"body":"towards the Northeast."},{"startTime":604.332,"endTime":607.528,"body":"So in a way, when that one character--"},{"startTime":604.332,"endTime":607.528,"body":"When the bad guy is saying,"},{"startTime":607.612,"endTime":609.008,"body":"\"Oh, this isn't even Brazil.\""},{"startTime":609.092,"endTime":612.288,"body":"In a way, there's an echo of that"},{"startTime":609.092,"endTime":612.288,"body":"in the way Bolsonaro treated"},{"startTime":612.372,"endTime":614.523,"body":"his opponents in the modern day."},{"startTime":614.607,"endTime":615.608,"body":"Exactly. Yeah."},{"startTime":615.692,"endTime":618.108,"body":"I can ignore you"},{"startTime":615.692,"endTime":618.108,"body":"because you're not really Brazil anyway."},{"startTime":618.192,"endTime":622.383,"body":"It's too bad that it remains a thing."},{"startTime":618.192,"endTime":622.383,"body":"But it--"},{"startTime":622.467,"endTime":624.008,"body":"- But it does."},{"startTime":622.467,"endTime":624.008,"body":"- But it does, yeah."},{"startTime":624.132,"endTime":626.553,"body":"Actually, I was gonna ask you,"},{"startTime":624.132,"endTime":626.553,"body":"Wagner, you're from that region."},{"startTime":626.636,"endTime":628.488,"body":"- Are you from Recife?"},{"startTime":626.636,"endTime":628.488,"body":"- I'm from Salvador."},{"startTime":628.612,"endTime":632.328,"body":"I feel like so much of Kleber's stuff"},{"startTime":628.612,"endTime":632.328,"body":"is so Recife based."},{"startTime":632.412,"endTime":636.331,"body":"And I'm wondering if you have"},{"startTime":632.412,"endTime":636.331,"body":"much of a relationship with that town?"},{"startTime":636.415,"endTime":637.469,"body":"Yes, yes."},{"startTime":637.553,"endTime":640.568,"body":"I mean,"},{"startTime":637.553,"endTime":640.568,"body":"I understand that culture very well."},{"startTime":640.652,"endTime":644.177,"body":"I have many family members"},{"startTime":640.652,"endTime":644.177,"body":"that actually live in Recife"},{"startTime":644.26,"endTime":647.568,"body":"and Recife is a very important city"},{"startTime":644.26,"endTime":647.568,"body":"for me as well,"},{"startTime":647.692,"endTime":651.328,"body":"because one of the greatest things"},{"startTime":647.692,"endTime":651.328,"body":"that I've done as an actor in my life"},{"startTime":651.412,"endTime":654.468,"body":"was a play that I did in 1999"},{"startTime":654.552,"endTime":657.808,"body":"that opened in Recife,"},{"startTime":654.552,"endTime":657.808,"body":"which is not normal."},{"startTime":657.932,"endTime":662.248,"body":"Nothing really opens in Recife."},{"startTime":657.932,"endTime":662.248,"body":"But that play, we did it there"},{"startTime":662.332,"endTime":665.488,"body":"because the director was from there,"},{"startTime":662.332,"endTime":665.488,"body":"and that was one of the most"},{"startTime":665.572,"endTime":667.928,"body":"important times of my life as an actor."},{"startTime":668.012,"endTime":673.028,"body":"So I got to live in Recife"},{"startTime":668.012,"endTime":673.028,"body":"and know the city really well."},{"startTime":673.112,"endTime":678.305,"body":"So coming back to shoot \u003ci\u003eThe Secret Agent\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":673.112,"endTime":678.305,"body":"was actually very emotional for me."},{"startTime":678.389,"endTime":683.728,"body":"Not only because I had spent 12 years"},{"startTime":678.389,"endTime":683.728,"body":"not doing anything in Portuguese,"},{"startTime":683.812,"endTime":689.528,"body":"but then when that time came,"},{"startTime":683.812,"endTime":689.528,"body":"I felt that I was in my element."},{"startTime":689.652,"endTime":692.435,"body":"You know, if I was,"},{"startTime":689.652,"endTime":692.435,"body":"although I'm not from there,"},{"startTime":692.519,"endTime":695.52,"body":"I felt very connected"},{"startTime":692.519,"endTime":695.52,"body":"to the cultural codes"},{"startTime":695.604,"endTime":697.278,"body":"that people from Recife share."},{"startTime":697.362,"endTime":699.243,"body":"But obviously,"},{"startTime":697.362,"endTime":699.243,"body":"since you're not from there,"},{"startTime":699.327,"endTime":703.848,"body":"you're not maybe as steeped"},{"startTime":699.327,"endTime":703.848,"body":"in the whole history of that city."},{"startTime":703.972,"endTime":708.648,"body":"Certainly not the way that Kleber has now"},{"startTime":703.972,"endTime":708.648,"body":"plunged deep into that action."},{"startTime":708.772,"endTime":711.968,"body":"Did you have to bone up"},{"startTime":708.772,"endTime":711.968,"body":"on the history for this film,"},{"startTime":712.092,"endTime":714.708,"body":"or did you osmose it from Kleber?"},{"startTime":714.792,"endTime":717.229,"body":"No, to be honest,"},{"startTime":714.792,"endTime":717.229,"body":"I knew a lot about Recife."},{"startTime":717.312,"endTime":719.626,"body":"I was always very interested about Recife"},{"startTime":719.71,"endTime":721.848,"body":"and the culture of the city."},{"startTime":721.932,"endTime":723.448,"body":"There was, when I was there,"},{"startTime":723.612,"endTime":726.299,"body":"for example,"},{"startTime":723.612,"endTime":726.299,"body":"when I was doing this play there,"},{"startTime":726.383,"endTime":734.088,"body":"Recife was still in a very high"},{"startTime":726.383,"endTime":734.088,"body":"cultural moment called, manguebeat,"},{"startTime":734.172,"endTime":739.168,"body":"you know, which is a music movement"},{"startTime":734.172,"endTime":739.168,"body":"that shaped Brazilian culture..."},{"startTime":739.292,"endTime":741.718,"body":"- Really?"},{"startTime":739.292,"endTime":741.718,"body":"- ...back in the '90s. Yeah."},{"startTime":745.81,"endTime":748.988,"body":"The main name of that time"},{"startTime":745.81,"endTime":748.988,"body":"is a guy called Chico Science."},{"startTime":749.072,"endTime":751.669,"body":"Unfortunately, he died in a car accident."},{"startTime":751.753,"endTime":754.968,"body":"But the idea was to mix influences"},{"startTime":755.052,"endTime":759.888,"body":"from all over the world"},{"startTime":755.052,"endTime":759.888,"body":"with Recife's folklore"},{"startTime":759.972,"endTime":766.148,"body":"and the drums of a rhythm that's typical"},{"startTime":759.972,"endTime":766.148,"body":"from there called, maracatu."},{"startTime":766.232,"endTime":770.968,"body":"So they presented themselves"},{"startTime":766.232,"endTime":770.968,"body":"playing those drums with electric guitars"},{"startTime":771.092,"endTime":773.303,"body":"in a way that I had never seen before."},{"startTime":782.904,"endTime":785.158,"body":"You should check it out. It's really cool."},{"startTime":785.242,"endTime":787.598,"body":"It's called, Chico Science e Nação Zumbi."},{"startTime":787.682,"endTime":790.353,"body":"They were endlessly influential"},{"startTime":790.436,"endTime":793.492,"body":"on the way I looked at the city"},{"startTime":790.436,"endTime":793.492,"body":"in the '90s"},{"startTime":793.576,"endTime":796.118,"body":"- when I was coming out of university."},{"startTime":793.576,"endTime":796.118,"body":"- How so?"},{"startTime":796.202,"endTime":799.198,"body":"They were the coolest thing"},{"startTime":796.202,"endTime":799.198,"body":"that ever happened in the city,"},{"startTime":799.282,"endTime":801.198,"body":"at least in the 20th century."},{"startTime":801.282,"endTime":804.998,"body":"And I happened to be"},{"startTime":801.282,"endTime":804.998,"body":"from the same generation as them"},{"startTime":805.082,"endTime":807.092,"body":"and I could go to the concerts."},{"startTime":807.175,"endTime":809.518,"body":"They really shook the way that media"},{"startTime":809.642,"endTime":812.242,"body":"looked at culture and pop music in Brazil,"},{"startTime":812.325,"endTime":815.839,"body":"and they attracted people from abroad,"},{"startTime":812.325,"endTime":815.839,"body":"from other countries."},{"startTime":815.922,"endTime":818.46,"body":"- It was just so incredible."},{"startTime":815.922,"endTime":818.46,"body":"- It's very unique."},{"startTime":818.544,"endTime":819.598,"body":"Very similar--"},{"startTime":819.682,"endTime":822.288,"body":"I actually had an interview"},{"startTime":819.682,"endTime":822.288,"body":"with Tony Wilson,"},{"startTime":822.372,"endTime":824.558,"body":"the guy behind New Order and..."},{"startTime":824.682,"endTime":827.823,"body":"- Factory Records."},{"startTime":824.682,"endTime":827.823,"body":"- ...Joy Division and the Hacienda, yeah."},{"startTime":827.907,"endTime":831.614,"body":"This would be the British"},{"startTime":827.907,"endTime":831.614,"body":"manager/record label owner"},{"startTime":831.698,"endTime":832.775,"body":"in the '80s and '90s,"},{"startTime":832.859,"endTime":835.998,"body":"who hyped all the post-punk bands"},{"startTime":832.859,"endTime":835.998,"body":"from Manchester like New Order."},{"startTime":836.122,"endTime":837.358,"body":"Yeah, yeah he was--"},{"startTime":837.522,"endTime":840.538,"body":"He's a great character in"},{"startTime":837.522,"endTime":840.538,"body":"\u003ci\u003e24 Hour Party People.\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":840.622,"endTime":842.758,"body":"- The movie."},{"startTime":840.622,"endTime":842.758,"body":"- Michael Winterbottom's film."},{"startTime":842.842,"endTime":846.811,"body":"But I had a wonderful conversation"},{"startTime":842.842,"endTime":846.811,"body":"with him and he said that"},{"startTime":846.895,"endTime":852.758,"body":"cities like Recife, Manchester,"},{"startTime":846.895,"endTime":852.758,"body":"Seattle, they have similar profiles."},{"startTime":852.842,"endTime":857.678,"body":"They are not the center,"},{"startTime":852.842,"endTime":857.678,"body":"but they are highly fertile"},{"startTime":857.762,"endTime":862.255,"body":"in terms of, you know, producing culture"},{"startTime":857.762,"endTime":862.255,"body":"and music and film and poetry."},{"startTime":862.957,"endTime":867.758,"body":"So that's what Recife is"},{"startTime":862.957,"endTime":867.758,"body":"and the impact of manguebeat"},{"startTime":867.842,"endTime":872.158,"body":"found a place in Wagner"},{"startTime":867.842,"endTime":872.158,"body":"as a young Brazilian actor."},{"startTime":872.242,"endTime":877.48,"body":"And of course, it had a huge impact on me"},{"startTime":872.242,"endTime":877.48,"body":"and my whole idea of making films."},{"startTime":884.072,"endTime":887.404,"body":"I thought for a second that we were"},{"startTime":884.072,"endTime":887.404,"body":"totally wandering away from"},{"startTime":887.488,"endTime":888.559,"body":"what this interview is about."},{"startTime":888.642,"endTime":892.478,"body":"But it is interesting that you both"},{"startTime":888.642,"endTime":892.478,"body":"kind of mentioned this music"},{"startTime":892.562,"endTime":894.678,"body":"as being formative to you as artists."},{"startTime":894.762,"endTime":898.44,"body":"How do you think that"},{"startTime":894.762,"endTime":898.44,"body":"that may be reflected in this movie?"},{"startTime":899.0,"endTime":901.238,"body":"- The influence of that--"},{"startTime":899.0,"endTime":901.238,"body":"- Can I just say something?"},{"startTime":901.322,"endTime":904.079,"body":"The first time I've heard about"},{"startTime":901.322,"endTime":904.079,"body":"the Hairy Leg"},{"startTime":904.163,"endTime":907.103,"body":"was in one of Chico Science's songs."},{"startTime":907.187,"endTime":908.106,"body":"Okay, wait a second."},{"startTime":908.19,"endTime":911.631,"body":"For those who haven't seen the movie,"},{"startTime":908.19,"endTime":911.631,"body":"describe the Hairy Leg,"},{"startTime":911.715,"endTime":914.438,"body":"which is one of the most insane moments"},{"startTime":911.715,"endTime":914.438,"body":"in this movie."},{"startTime":914.522,"endTime":917.238,"body":"And that apparently is based"},{"startTime":914.522,"endTime":917.238,"body":"in reality somehow."},{"startTime":917.362,"endTime":920.278,"body":"I thought this was a totally surreal thing"},{"startTime":917.362,"endTime":920.278,"body":"when I was watching it."},{"startTime":920.362,"endTime":921.518,"body":"But explain this."},{"startTime":921.642,"endTime":925.198,"body":"I love, urban legends."},{"startTime":921.642,"endTime":925.198,"body":"I'm fascinated by them."},{"startTime":925.282,"endTime":928.278,"body":"And the Hairy Leg is an"},{"startTime":925.282,"endTime":928.278,"body":"urban legend developed,"},{"startTime":928.362,"endTime":932.52,"body":"created, in the 1970s in the local press."},{"startTime":933.16,"endTime":938.692,"body":"The police would come and,"},{"startTime":933.16,"endTime":938.692,"body":"basically beat people up,"},{"startTime":938.776,"endTime":942.735,"body":"especially people from the gay community,"},{"startTime":938.776,"endTime":942.735,"body":"cruising in a park."},{"startTime":943.513,"endTime":946.508,"body":"And they would suffer violence"},{"startTime":946.592,"endTime":950.654,"body":"and they would be sent"},{"startTime":946.592,"endTime":950.654,"body":"to the trauma ward in hospitals."},{"startTime":950.738,"endTime":954.969,"body":"And that couldn't really be reported"},{"startTime":950.738,"endTime":954.969,"body":"the way it happened"},{"startTime":955.052,"endTime":959.478,"body":"because the police and the military police"},{"startTime":955.052,"endTime":959.478,"body":"would come after them."},{"startTime":959.562,"endTime":965.744,"body":"So in an ironic, cynical, irreverent way,"},{"startTime":959.562,"endTime":965.744,"body":"the newspapers would use the code,"},{"startTime":965.828,"endTime":969.874,"body":"a character almost, saying that"},{"startTime":965.828,"endTime":969.874,"body":"what actually happened last night"},{"startTime":969.957,"endTime":972.66,"body":"was the Hairy Leg."},{"startTime":969.957,"endTime":972.66,"body":"The Hairy Leg attacked again."},{"startTime":972.744,"endTime":975.878,"body":"Yeah, this mythical disembodied leg."},{"startTime":976.002,"endTime":979.128,"body":"And the Hairy Leg became"},{"startTime":976.002,"endTime":979.128,"body":"a phenomenon in Recife."},{"startTime":979.211,"endTime":981.798,"body":"The cartoons were about the Hairy Leg."},{"startTime":981.882,"endTime":985.578,"body":"And it was also,"},{"startTime":981.882,"endTime":985.578,"body":"stories told on the radio."},{"startTime":985.662,"endTime":988.198,"body":"And I always wanted to use"},{"startTime":985.662,"endTime":988.198,"body":"the Hairy Leg in a film"},{"startTime":988.562,"endTime":994.018,"body":"and finally, now I managed"},{"startTime":988.562,"endTime":994.018,"body":"to find a way to bring it to the film."},{"startTime":994.102,"endTime":998.598,"body":"Wagner, you said you mentioned this"},{"startTime":994.102,"endTime":998.598,"body":"as somehow connected to that music."},{"startTime":998.722,"endTime":1001.061,"body":"That band,"},{"startTime":998.722,"endTime":1001.061,"body":"Chico Science e Nação Zumbi,"},{"startTime":1001.144,"endTime":1004.203,"body":"they had a song"},{"startTime":1001.144,"endTime":1004.203,"body":"where they mentioned the Hairy Leg"},{"startTime":1004.287,"endTime":1005.998,"body":"and I was like, \"What the fuck is it?\""},{"startTime":1006.122,"endTime":1007.8,"body":"And then I started to..."},{"startTime":1008.64,"endTime":1012.664,"body":"That was the first time I learned"},{"startTime":1008.64,"endTime":1012.664,"body":"there was a Hairy Leg in Recife,"},{"startTime":1012.748,"endTime":1014.129,"body":"kicking people, yeah."},{"startTime":1014.213,"endTime":1016.708,"body":"Oh my God, everything comes together."},{"startTime":1016.792,"endTime":1020.768,"body":"So that's one of the ways, obviously,"},{"startTime":1016.792,"endTime":1020.768,"body":"this kind of plays into your movie."},{"startTime":1020.852,"endTime":1024.468,"body":"Is there a way that the movie's put"},{"startTime":1020.852,"endTime":1024.468,"body":"together that is influenced by that music?"},{"startTime":1024.592,"endTime":1031.028,"body":"No, I think Recife has a very strong"},{"startTime":1024.592,"endTime":1031.028,"body":"personality in terms of having"},{"startTime":1031.112,"endTime":1034.162,"body":"a very clear political point of view."},{"startTime":1034.246,"endTime":1038.048,"body":"And when that-- All of the music scene"},{"startTime":1034.246,"endTime":1038.048,"body":"happened with the manguebeat"},{"startTime":1038.132,"endTime":1045.148,"body":"in the 1990s,"},{"startTime":1038.132,"endTime":1045.148,"body":"it was just a really cool moment"},{"startTime":1045.232,"endTime":1047.47,"body":"when so much was happening."},{"startTime":1047.554,"endTime":1052.148,"body":"And it was the beginning of the internet."},{"startTime":1047.554,"endTime":1052.148,"body":"And we had these great bands."},{"startTime":1052.232,"endTime":1055.622,"body":"Chico Science e Nação Zumbi"},{"startTime":1052.232,"endTime":1055.622,"body":"was the biggest band"},{"startTime":1055.705,"endTime":1057.708,"body":"and then we had other bands,"},{"startTime":1057.792,"endTime":1063.628,"body":"like Mundo Livre and Mestre Ambrósio,"},{"startTime":1057.792,"endTime":1063.628,"body":"and they were all part of one movement."},{"startTime":1063.752,"endTime":1070.268,"body":"And that was so inspiring"},{"startTime":1063.752,"endTime":1070.268,"body":"because you're so used to buying records"},{"startTime":1070.352,"endTime":1074.232,"body":"from people who live thousands"},{"startTime":1070.352,"endTime":1074.232,"body":"and thousands of kilometers away from you"},{"startTime":1074.316,"endTime":1075.774,"body":"in other countries"},{"startTime":1075.858,"endTime":1079.308,"body":"and now I was actually the fan"},{"startTime":1075.858,"endTime":1079.308,"body":"of local bands"},{"startTime":1079.392,"endTime":1082.628,"body":"I could just call"},{"startTime":1079.392,"endTime":1082.628,"body":"or meet in the supermarket."},{"startTime":1082.712,"endTime":1084.103,"body":"So all of that was really--"},{"startTime":1084.186,"endTime":1087.099,"body":"It made me feel like I was"},{"startTime":1084.186,"endTime":1087.099,"body":"in the middle of something"},{"startTime":1087.182,"endTime":1089.508,"body":"and the middle of something"},{"startTime":1087.182,"endTime":1089.508,"body":"was right here."},{"startTime":1089.592,"endTime":1090.948,"body":"So maybe you could do it."},{"startTime":1091.032,"endTime":1092.588,"body":"Yeah, of course we can do it, yeah."},{"startTime":1092.712,"endTime":1097.188,"body":"And I got to live in Recife back then,"},{"startTime":1092.712,"endTime":1097.188,"body":"you know, when I was doing that play."},{"startTime":1097.272,"endTime":1103.828,"body":"So I could see how that movement"},{"startTime":1097.272,"endTime":1103.828,"body":"was influencing in everything,"},{"startTime":1103.912,"endTime":1109.668,"body":"in fashion, in movies, in music, you know,"},{"startTime":1103.912,"endTime":1109.668,"body":"the way people would carry themselves."},{"startTime":1109.752,"endTime":1112.828,"body":"It was a very special moment"},{"startTime":1109.752,"endTime":1112.828,"body":"to be in Recife."},{"startTime":1112.912,"endTime":1117.068,"body":"I can't help but think"},{"startTime":1112.912,"endTime":1117.068,"body":"that it's a good thing that so many people"},{"startTime":1117.192,"endTime":1120.268,"body":"are curious about Recife"},{"startTime":1117.192,"endTime":1120.268,"body":"because they've seen it in the films."},{"startTime":1121.277,"endTime":1123.797,"body":"Some people actually say,"},{"startTime":1121.277,"endTime":1123.797,"body":"\"Oh, I visited Recife"},{"startTime":1123.881,"endTime":1126.948,"body":"\"because I wanted to get to know"},{"startTime":1123.881,"endTime":1126.948,"body":"the locations of your film.\""},{"startTime":1127.753,"endTime":1130.114,"body":"It's something that I have done"},{"startTime":1127.753,"endTime":1130.114,"body":"in other cities"},{"startTime":1130.197,"endTime":1133.087,"body":"and I'm happy that"},{"startTime":1130.197,"endTime":1133.087,"body":"people do it in my city, you know?"},{"startTime":1133.171,"endTime":1135.766,"body":"By the way, if you think I'm not going,"},{"startTime":1133.171,"endTime":1135.766,"body":"right after this interview,"},{"startTime":1135.85,"endTime":1138.619,"body":"to Discogs and buying"},{"startTime":1135.85,"endTime":1138.619,"body":"Chico Science records,"},{"startTime":1138.703,"endTime":1139.868,"body":"you're out of your mind."},{"startTime":1139.952,"endTime":1141.501,"body":"- That's amazing."},{"startTime":1139.952,"endTime":1141.501,"body":"- You're gonna love it, man."},{"startTime":1141.585,"endTime":1142.834,"body":"But talking more about Recife,"},{"startTime":1142.918,"endTime":1147.228,"body":"so the recreation of this era"},{"startTime":1142.918,"endTime":1147.228,"body":"that you pull off here"},{"startTime":1147.312,"endTime":1149.768,"body":"is so beautiful and so tactile."},{"startTime":1149.852,"endTime":1155.017,"body":"And having seen \u003ci\u003ePictures of Ghosts,\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":1149.852,"endTime":1155.017,"body":"I know that downtown Recife"},{"startTime":1155.101,"endTime":1157.428,"body":"is now totally different"},{"startTime":1155.101,"endTime":1157.428,"body":"than it was back then."},{"startTime":1157.512,"endTime":1161.051,"body":"What was the process"},{"startTime":1157.512,"endTime":1161.051,"body":"of doing this recreation"},{"startTime":1161.135,"endTime":1164.057,"body":"on, you know,"},{"startTime":1161.135,"endTime":1164.057,"body":"probably not like a Disney budget."},{"startTime":1164.141,"endTime":1168.47,"body":"\u003ci\u003eThe Secret Agent\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":1164.141,"endTime":1168.47,"body":"cost five million euros or dollars."},{"startTime":1169.03,"endTime":1172.008,"body":"It's my most expensive film so far."},{"startTime":1172.092,"endTime":1176.708,"body":"It really comes from so many years"},{"startTime":1172.092,"endTime":1176.708,"body":"of looking at the city."},{"startTime":1176.792,"endTime":1179.828,"body":"I've been photographing Recife"},{"startTime":1176.792,"endTime":1179.828,"body":"since my teens."},{"startTime":1179.912,"endTime":1185.48,"body":"I really think that I learned to look at"},{"startTime":1179.912,"endTime":1185.48,"body":"the city and know where to put the camera."},{"startTime":1185.564,"endTime":1187.167,"body":"And of course, with a good budget,"},{"startTime":1187.251,"endTime":1192.134,"body":"you can get cars"},{"startTime":1187.251,"endTime":1192.134,"body":"and work with great people"},{"startTime":1192.218,"endTime":1195.735,"body":"who do costumes like Rita Azevedo."},{"startTime":1195.819,"endTime":1200.418,"body":"I think we really did a good job"},{"startTime":1195.819,"endTime":1200.418,"body":"and great actors like Wagner"},{"startTime":1200.502,"endTime":1202.54,"body":"and the whole rest of the cast."},{"startTime":1202.624,"endTime":1205.29,"body":"I'm very happy"},{"startTime":1202.624,"endTime":1205.29,"body":"with the final result, you know."},{"startTime":1205.374,"endTime":1207.401,"body":"Wagner, I read an interview with you"},{"startTime":1205.374,"endTime":1207.401,"body":"about this movie"},{"startTime":1207.484,"endTime":1210.658,"body":"and its depictions"},{"startTime":1207.484,"endTime":1210.658,"body":"of an authoritarian regime."},{"startTime":1210.742,"endTime":1212.978,"body":"And it's a kind of regime,"},{"startTime":1210.742,"endTime":1212.978,"body":"as we've mentioned,"},{"startTime":1213.102,"endTime":1216.538,"body":"I think many will tell you, is happening"},{"startTime":1213.102,"endTime":1216.538,"body":"now in the US, maybe some other places."},{"startTime":1216.622,"endTime":1219.502,"body":"And you said something"},{"startTime":1216.622,"endTime":1219.502,"body":"that I think is true,"},{"startTime":1219.585,"endTime":1222.809,"body":"which is that maybe the US"},{"startTime":1219.585,"endTime":1222.809,"body":"thinks democracy is a given"},{"startTime":1222.892,"endTime":1225.245,"body":"because we've not had a dictatorship."},{"startTime":1225.329,"endTime":1228.498,"body":"But on the other hand, I've also heard,"},{"startTime":1225.329,"endTime":1228.498,"body":"Kleber, you talking about this movie"},{"startTime":1228.582,"endTime":1232.538,"body":"as being about like cultural amnesia,"},{"startTime":1228.582,"endTime":1232.538,"body":"even in your own town,"},{"startTime":1232.662,"endTime":1236.138,"body":"in your own country,"},{"startTime":1232.662,"endTime":1236.138,"body":"which almost implies that even if you've"},{"startTime":1236.222,"endTime":1239.498,"body":"gone through a dictatorship,"},{"startTime":1236.222,"endTime":1239.498,"body":"you have to be reminded of it."},{"startTime":1239.582,"endTime":1242.6,"body":"- Yes."},{"startTime":1239.582,"endTime":1242.6,"body":"- Why do you think that is?"},{"startTime":1242.684,"endTime":1245.418,"body":"What is it about a dictatorship"},{"startTime":1242.684,"endTime":1245.418,"body":"that people just can't seem,"},{"startTime":1245.542,"endTime":1247.238,"body":"even when they've lived through it,"},{"startTime":1247.322,"endTime":1251.428,"body":"to shake the attraction of,"},{"startTime":1247.322,"endTime":1251.428,"body":"that you have to keep telling this story"},{"startTime":1251.512,"endTime":1252.423,"body":"over and over again."},{"startTime":1252.507,"endTime":1254.696,"body":"How long are we"},{"startTime":1252.507,"endTime":1254.696,"body":"gonna have to tell this story?"},{"startTime":1254.78,"endTime":1258.98,"body":"I think collective memory"},{"startTime":1254.78,"endTime":1258.98,"body":"is getting shorter and shorter."},{"startTime":1259.94,"endTime":1264.86,"body":"I first came to understand this"},{"startTime":1259.94,"endTime":1264.86,"body":"in terms of cinephilia."},{"startTime":1265.94,"endTime":1271.217,"body":"Every eight, maybe ten years,"},{"startTime":1265.94,"endTime":1271.217,"body":"a new film comes along"},{"startTime":1271.877,"endTime":1274.77,"body":"and there is a general reception"},{"startTime":1274.853,"endTime":1278.02,"body":"or a general understanding"},{"startTime":1274.853,"endTime":1278.02,"body":"that the film is completely original."},{"startTime":1278.74,"endTime":1282.038,"body":"But in fact, if you remember"},{"startTime":1278.74,"endTime":1282.038,"body":"that 20 years ago"},{"startTime":1282.122,"endTime":1284.46,"body":"there was a film that did the same thing."},{"startTime":1285.18,"endTime":1288.82,"body":"So every ten years"},{"startTime":1285.18,"endTime":1288.82,"body":"you can have a new original classic."},{"startTime":1289.82,"endTime":1296.558,"body":"Imagine if something similar was done"},{"startTime":1289.82,"endTime":1296.558,"body":"55 years before or 70 years before."},{"startTime":1296.642,"endTime":1299.578,"body":"- Let's not even mention that."},{"startTime":1296.642,"endTime":1299.578,"body":"- Yeah, it's lost in time."},{"startTime":1299.662,"endTime":1302.898,"body":"And I think politically now, I don't know."},{"startTime":1303.062,"endTime":1307.101,"body":"We are getting to 80 years"},{"startTime":1303.062,"endTime":1307.101,"body":"from the Second World War."},{"startTime":1307.98,"endTime":1312.938,"body":"We are going back in cycles, I think."},{"startTime":1307.98,"endTime":1312.938,"body":"And that is really scary."},{"startTime":1313.062,"endTime":1319.98,"body":"You know, looking at the situation"},{"startTime":1313.062,"endTime":1319.98,"body":"and in Europe and in Palestine and Gaza,"},{"startTime":1320.62,"endTime":1325.618,"body":"it just feels like the same mistakes"},{"startTime":1320.62,"endTime":1325.618,"body":"are being made again."},{"startTime":1325.702,"endTime":1328.798,"body":"And that is depressing, you know?"},{"startTime":1328.882,"endTime":1336.058,"body":"And it's almost like, memory has to be"},{"startTime":1328.882,"endTime":1336.058,"body":"reignited every ten years."},{"startTime":1336.142,"endTime":1338.298,"body":"And sometimes a film can do that."},{"startTime":1338.422,"endTime":1341.7,"body":"It's not the film's"},{"startTime":1338.422,"endTime":1341.7,"body":"primary function, I think."},{"startTime":1342.3,"endTime":1345.363,"body":"I don't make films as history lessons."},{"startTime":1345.446,"endTime":1349.535,"body":"But they may be used in some way"},{"startTime":1345.446,"endTime":1349.535,"body":"to remind people"},{"startTime":1349.619,"endTime":1356.018,"body":"that some bad things remain bad"},{"startTime":1349.619,"endTime":1356.018,"body":"and they shouldn't be reutilized."},{"startTime":1356.102,"endTime":1361.138,"body":"Last year when Walter Salles' film"},{"startTime":1356.102,"endTime":1361.138,"body":"\u003ci\u003eI'm Still Here\u003c/i\u003e came out in Brazil,"},{"startTime":1361.222,"endTime":1365.178,"body":"I was at a screening,"},{"startTime":1361.222,"endTime":1365.178,"body":"and on the way out of the screening,"},{"startTime":1365.262,"endTime":1369.74,"body":"I overheard two teenagers"},{"startTime":1365.262,"endTime":1369.74,"body":"and they said to each other,"},{"startTime":1370.54,"endTime":1373.58,"body":"\"I didn't know the dictatorship"},{"startTime":1370.54,"endTime":1373.58,"body":"was so bad.\""},{"startTime":1374.66,"endTime":1379.02,"body":"And it was really crazy to hear that."},{"startTime":1379.82,"endTime":1384.079,"body":"At what point did they hear"},{"startTime":1379.82,"endTime":1384.079,"body":"that it wasn't so bad, you know?"},{"startTime":1384.86,"endTime":1387.98,"body":"So the film, in some way, reminded them."},{"startTime":1390.38,"endTime":1394.181,"body":"Kleber Mendonça Filho and Wagner Moura,"},{"startTime":1390.38,"endTime":1394.181,"body":"their Best Picture Oscar nominee,"},{"startTime":1394.265,"endTime":1395.329,"body":"\u003ci\u003eThe Secret Agent\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":1395.412,"endTime":1398.458,"body":"is in cinemas now"},{"startTime":1395.412,"endTime":1398.458,"body":"and coming soon to MUBI in the UK,"},{"startTime":1398.582,"endTime":1400.978,"body":"Latin America, lots of other places."},{"startTime":1401.062,"endTime":1405.098,"body":"For tickets and showtimes in your country,"},{"startTime":1401.062,"endTime":1405.098,"body":"check the show notes of this episode."},{"startTime":1405.182,"endTime":1407.404,"body":"And that is the MUBI Podcast for now."},{"startTime":1407.488,"endTime":1410.458,"body":"Next time, we're gonna hear from a guy"},{"startTime":1407.488,"endTime":1410.458,"body":"who I almost guarantee"},{"startTime":1410.542,"endTime":1414.089,"body":"is gonna be part of the next wave"},{"startTime":1410.542,"endTime":1414.089,"body":"of Oscar favorite filmmakers,"},{"startTime":1414.173,"endTime":1415.89,"body":"Akinola Davies Jr."},{"startTime":1415.974,"endTime":1419.033,"body":"His heartbreaking, BAFTA winning movie"},{"startTime":1415.974,"endTime":1419.033,"body":"\u003ci\u003eMy Father's Shadow\u003c/i\u003e"},{"startTime":1419.117,"endTime":1421.838,"body":"is also about the importance"},{"startTime":1419.117,"endTime":1421.838,"body":"of remembering your past,"},{"startTime":1421.922,"endTime":1424.778,"body":"especially when there are forces"},{"startTime":1421.922,"endTime":1424.778,"body":"trying to erase it."},{"startTime":1424.862,"endTime":1427.921,"body":"The history that's been taught"},{"startTime":1424.862,"endTime":1427.921,"body":"for generations and generations"},{"startTime":1428.005,"endTime":1429.717,"body":"is a version of history."},{"startTime":1429.801,"endTime":1431.419,"body":"History is written by the victors."},{"startTime":1431.503,"endTime":1435.668,"body":"By definition, the people who lost"},{"startTime":1431.503,"endTime":1435.668,"body":"had their history sort of scrapped."},{"startTime":1435.752,"endTime":1438.168,"body":"Beautiful movie"},{"startTime":1435.752,"endTime":1438.168,"body":"and a great person and filmmaker."},{"startTime":1438.252,"endTime":1439.448,"body":"Follow us so you don't miss it."},{"startTime":1439.572,"endTime":1442.385,"body":"Meanwhile, if you love the show,"},{"startTime":1439.572,"endTime":1442.385,"body":"do leave us a five star review"},{"startTime":1442.469,"endTime":1443.753,"body":"wherever you listen, won't you?"},{"startTime":1443.837,"endTime":1445.708,"body":"It helps others find and love us too."},{"startTime":1445.792,"endTime":1449.408,"body":"And if you've got questions, comments,"},{"startTime":1445.792,"endTime":1449.408,"body":"or are maybe listening in Brazil"},{"startTime":1449.492,"endTime":1452.408,"body":"and just want to tell me all about it."},{"startTime":1449.492,"endTime":1452.408,"body":"I'm so into your country."},{"startTime":1452.532,"endTime":1455.648,"body":"Email us at podcast@mubi.com"},{"startTime":1455.732,"endTime":1457.048,"body":"And now let's roll credits."},{"startTime":1457.132,"endTime":1459.928,"body":"This episode was written"},{"startTime":1457.132,"endTime":1459.928,"body":"and hosted by me, Rico Gagliano."},{"startTime":1460.052,"endTime":1463.728,"body":"Ciara McEniff is our producer with help"},{"startTime":1460.052,"endTime":1463.728,"body":"from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk."},{"startTime":1463.852,"endTime":1465.728,"body":"Christian Coons edited this episode."},{"startTime":1465.812,"endTime":1468.308,"body":"Our original theme music"},{"startTime":1465.812,"endTime":1468.308,"body":"was composed by Yuri Suzuki."},{"startTime":1468.392,"endTime":1471.668,"body":"Thanks this week to David Harper"},{"startTime":1468.392,"endTime":1471.668,"body":"for recording Kleber and Wagner."},{"startTime":1471.752,"endTime":1474.928,"body":"This show is executive produced by me"},{"startTime":1471.752,"endTime":1474.928,"body":"along with Efe Çakarel,"},{"startTime":1475.052,"endTime":1477.168,"body":"Daniel Kasman and Michael Tacca."},{"startTime":1477.252,"endTime":1482.295,"body":"And of course, to see the best in cinema,"},{"startTime":1477.252,"endTime":1482.295,"body":"subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com"},{"startTime":1482.379,"endTime":1484.936,"body":"Thanks for listening."},{"startTime":1482.379,"endTime":1484.936,"body":"Hope you go watch some movies."}]}