Sabrina Sutherland guides TWIN PEAKS’ RETURN

David Lynch’s creative process was unconventional in many ways. For example, he preferred sketching his ideas as images to explaining them in words. Producer Sabrina Sutherland worked with him for more than 30 years. How did she find the language to help translate his vision to screen?

LADIES OF LYNCH explores the subversive female characters created by the late David Lynch, and the singular women who helped shape them. Season 9’s guests include celebrated actor and filmmaker Isabella Rossellini; Lynch’s daughter Jennifer Lynch; his producer of more than 30 years, Sabrina Sutherland; TWIN PEAKS co-creator Mark Frost; and the award-winning novelist Deborah Levy.

Written and guest hosted by culture writer Simran Hans, these conversations with actors, writers, producers and craftspeople who worked directly with Lynch reveal insights about the enigmatic and much-missed filmmaker, and the provocative women he put on screen.

TWIN PEAKS and TWIN PEAKS: A LIMITED EVENT SERIES are now streaming on MUBI in the US, UK, Ireland, Latin America, Germany, Turkey, Italy, Netherlands and India. 

MUBI is a global streaming service, production company and film distributor dedicated to elevating great cinema. MUBI makes, acquires, curates, and champions extraordinary films, connecting them to audiences all over the world. A place to discover ambitious new films and singular voices, from iconic directors to emerging auteurs. Each carefully chosen by MUBI’s curators.

Transcript

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Heads up, this episode includes adult themes and spoilers, but it doesn't include me, your regular host Rico Gagliano. For this season, I have handed the reins to UK film writer Simran Hans. You will find her work in <i>The Guardian</i>,<i>The New York Times</i> and many more. You're in fantastic hands with her. Enjoy. When I think of David Lynch and especially<i>Twin Peaks</i>, I think of mystery. What did David teach you about mystery and its value? David loved a good mystery. I love a good mystery. He loved trying to figure things out. He-- we would sit and watch <i>Forensic Files</i> many, many, many, many, many times, like over the years. You know, I know David has seen all of them several times. And, you know, there's quite a few. And it's just this idea of human nature and discovering what people will do and knowing that they might do something that you wouldn't even think of. He liked the idea that things were not ever solved. And that's okay. It's kind of the looking at it and investigating it and, you know, embracing it, that makes a mystery fun. Welcome back to the MUBI Podcast. MUBI is the global film company that champions great cinema. And on this show, we tell you the stories behind great cinema. I'm your guest host, Simran Hans. And this is season nine. We're calling it 'Ladies of Lynch' a mini series about the subversive female characters created by David Lynch and the singular women who helped shape them. When I logged on to the video chat with today's guest, the first thing I noticed was her t-shirt. It had David Lynch's face on it. Sabrina Sutherland was Lynchs long time producing partner and clearly a dear friend. She's worked for Lynch mainly in production since the early 1990s, and I guess you could call her his tether to planet Earth. If he was the dreamer she was the person interpreting those dreams and helping bring them to life. Sabrina describes herself as a nuts and bolts person. She was a Production Supervisor on <i>Lost Highway</i> an Associate Producer on <i>Inland Empire</i>, and an Executive Producer on <i>Twin Peaks: The Return</i>. Sabrina also manages Lynch's YouTube page, David Lynch Theater, where he posted his much loved weather reports.<i>Should get up to the mid 80s this afternoon</i><i>around 26 Celsius, sunshine all the way.</i><i>Have a great day everyone!</i> She is a trustee of the David Lynch Estate and has been working on the David Lynch Archive, along with his biographer, Christine McKenna. She spent a huge chunk of the last 30 years by his side. Sabrina first started working with Lynch in the early 1990s as a Production Coordinator on the second series of <i>Twin Peaks</i>. But she'd been a fan since season one. I was working on another show at that time, and I was watching taped recordings at night, so I recorded on VHS and then I'd bring the tape in to work. And while we were at work, we'd watch it, and I fell in love with it. And I thought, well, this is really what television should be, you know? It was so different and just so great that I called and asked if I could work on it, you know? And I didn't really do that a lot for shows that were on. I don't think I did that before, and I don't think I have done that after. And I was lucky that they hired me. And when you and your friends or your colleagues were watching it at work, you know, you said you hadn't seen anything like it. What struck you as different about the show. Well, television then was very kind of predictable. It just was very structured, depending on what genre you were watching, whether it was a, you know, a comedy, or a romance or a western or whatever it was. You could kind of define it and pigeonhole it. And you knew even detective stories like what was going to happen. Right? But this show was not like that. There really isn't anything that was conventional about the show. I mean, it kind of had this weird comedy to it, kind of this parody thing. When you know, watching the soap opera and it was kind of like a soap opera itself, but not really, but the structure of it and the characters and the way it looked, nothing like that had been up until that point, been like that. It's really interesting how you pick out that sort of off kilter aspect of it, how everything is kind of normal, but it's it's actually not. Something is a little bit off. Something's a little bit different. Do you ever find yourself seeing things out in the real world, or maybe in pop culture where you think,"Hm, that's a little bit <i>Twin Peaks</i>?" Oh, absolutely. And I think that's what Mark and David kind of were going for, in a way, is that they were showing that that life is strange and wonderful and that there are things that maybe don't make sense, but that's what makes life right. So let's go back to the sort of making of that second series, which was your sort of first big project with David Lynch. When you were signing on to the show what was your perception of David before you actually met him? I knew him as a filmmaker. I didn't know him as a person, and the first film I saw was <i>The Elephant Man</i>, or that resonated with me, I should say. Released in 1980, <i>The Elephant Man</i> was Lynch's second film. It's one of his sweetest, too. Set in Victorian London, it tells the story of John Merrick, a clever and gentle man born with physical deformities. He's befriended by a kind doctor and his team, who try to protect him from a cruel world.<i>I'm not late. What is it?</i><i>Well, sir, I don't quite...</i><i>I don't quite understand why it is you allow that sort of people in there.</i><i>Why? Because he enjoys it, and I think it's very good for him.</i><i>Yes, but, Sir, you saw the expression on their faces.</i><i>They didn't hide their disgust.</i><i>They don't care anything about John. They only want to impress their friends.</i> I don't know that I expected him to be any particular way, but because of<i>The Elephant Man</i>, I did think of him to be somebody who cared about humanity. And I wasn't mistaken. You know, he did care about humanity. And what do you remember about actually meeting him and interacting with him on that second series. David was not around a lot. On the second season, my interactions with him when I first met him, he was, you know, very nice, introduced himself, said hi, and that was all great. But, you know, I didn't really have interaction. But then if he was directing and I had something, I would go up to him. He was always very nice and called me by my name. And, you know, he was a very approachable kind of director. Some directors are not approachable, but he was. And then I had a situation where I had a script that I was in charge of distributing the scripts to everybody. And I just remember he caught me in the hallway screaming at me and said, you know, "Why did you send this script out?"Who did you send the script to?"How dare you send this script when I haven't read it or haven't approved it?" And I, you know, was kind of shocked because I had never seen anger out of him before and this was quite angry. But I you know, I said,"Well, I'm super sorry,"you know, that's the script that was given to me."I thought it was all approved. And here are the people I gave it to."I can recall it." And then he quickly changed and he said, "Oh, no, you know" he said,"I know it's not your fault. I'm sorry." And he was quick to apologize and quick to change his tone. When you recall that anecdote of sort of making a mistake and then it sort of being resolved very quickly. I think that is very interesting to hear you describe it in that way, because it seems like he saw you as somebody who could keep their cool in a crisis, and that seems to have been the dynamic of the relationship going forward. But can you describe the atmosphere on set, working on series two of <i>Twin Peaks</i>, because the first series had been this huge success. But what were the expectations like and what was happening behind the scenes on series two when you were working on it? I will say, I, first of all, I met so many people, crew people and actors that worked on the show that I'm still friends with. The atmosphere was always fun and inviting and exciting. Everybody was excited to be there. It was just really fun. There are always people who were wanting to come in and work on it, and so that was part of my purview was to hire certain people. And I got, you know, lots of resumes every day of people. And I remember getting one resume that was inside a box of donuts. So the resume was all full of jelly, but I think I ended up hiring that person. And did that kind of positive atmosphere, did that last throughout the whole of of the second series? Because by the time it finished airing, I think it's probably fair to say that audiences had cooled on it a little bit. Was there any sense from people working on it that that might be about to happen? Well, yeah, I mean, me personally, I thought that the show was not as good as the first season. I felt that the stories kept getting crazier and crazier and beyond of what <i>Twin Peaks</i> was initially to me. I think that there is an idea that maybe the show wasn't going to be... kept up for another season just because, after it was discovered who killed Laura Palmer, it just kind of became this amalgamation of various stories. So I'd like to think that, you know, looking back, that, oh, yeah, everybody was behind it. But I know for the show part of it, it wasn't that special anymore. But the people there were very special. So it was always a hope that it would continue. I think we should skip forward a few years to the next kind of big project that you and David worked on together, which is <i>Lost Highway</i>, a brilliant and underrated film, actually, I think. Yay, I think so too! Can you talk a little bit about your specific role on that film? Sure. I was what was called the Production Supervisor. I was the person on the show that kind of ran the production, the nuts and bolts of it, and made sure that what needed to be on set for equipment or for crew happened if there were any emergencies on set, I'm the go to person to approve things or to deal with things. But he was not happy a lot of times to see me, because I would be the person who would be telling him he was not allowed to have the Technocrane for a week, but he could have it one day. And what day did he want it? If you haven't seen<i>Lost Highway</i>, first, you have to. It's one of Lynch's most underrated films and one of his hardest to explain, too. So for our purposes, I'll just say that Lynch described it as a horror noir. One of the main characters is a gorgeous gangster's moll called Alice Wakefield, played by Patricia Arquette.<i>How'd you like to take me to dinner?</i><i>I don't know.</i> We learn that, like many of Lynch's women, she's mixed up in all sorts of trouble. She's also the star of some risqué and even violent adult films, which her underworld crew are fond of screening in their mansions. One of Sabrina's roles on <i>Lost Highway</i> was to research some seriously sordid images and have them available on set to spark reactions from the actors. So, for example, David wanted me to find the most glorious death scenes of real death to have for watching, which was pretty brutal and also had me look through pornography for certain things and then just having certain things on set for whatever characters, I think there are some pornography magazines in the prison that I had found. He wanted very specific magazines for that, and I remember bringing those in and showing him and saying, are these what you want? I mean, it's kind of a weird job, right? I think it's kind of a weird job when you talk about it like that. But I also think it's interesting that he chose you as one of the female members of the crew to go and kind of be across all of that stuff. Well, I will say, you know, David never treated me differently because of my sex. David was always a supporter of mine and, you know, a champion in ways. And he wasn't sexist at all. So I think of the job I was given was because I was there to do that job. I think he felt like maybe I could find something that he was thinking of. So I looked at it as a positive thing that maybe I could find because he would describe it. And so then I could try and find it. I understand also that you were on set to support Patricia Arquette through some of the nude scenes that she had to do, which she was a bit nervous about. What do you remember being her concerns at the time? You know, to be naked in front of a crew or to have naked film of yourself? I think that for anybody is something that, you know, you don't want exploited. So I think the concern more was just to make sure that everything was kept to David seeing whatever was shot and whatever he wants to use, he could use and anything else would not be seen. I think anybody who's going to do a nude scene, you don't want these pictures out. You don't want the crew hanging around watching you do things. You don't want the film to go anywhere. You know, you don't want to have it splashed anywhere outside of what you see in the movie itself. How did you navigate that and control that situation? I hand-carried the film to the lab, made sure that certain things were done so that it wasn't being handled by a lot of people, and then that the film was put away and that only those pieces that David wanted used were there. And at that time, there wasn't... if you were going to do nudity, you were going to do nudity, so you'd have some guy who would be kind of acting stupid, who would want to stay there when he shouldn't have been there or whatever. And you have that obligation to say, please, you know, can you leave now. As far as an Intimacy Coordinator, I mean, that's a whole specific thing in terms of directing and making sure certain things are handled. And that was never even thought of at that time. And I certainly wasn't a part of that. I wish, you know, that was the case, but that wasn't then. In many ways, you were kind of translator for David. You know, he tells you what's in his head, you make it happen on screen. But how would he communicate the images and sounds and feelings from his imagination to you? To me he spoke very clearly and just described exactly what he wanted. I suppose there were some people who didn't relate to that or understand what he was saying, perhaps? I don't know, but I just know that I was able to understand exactly. He was very specific about what he'd want, what he didn't want. Did he ever demonstrate anything through drawings or visual references, or was it more he would explain it verbally to you? Oh, no. I have notebooks full of drawings. Notebooks full. He would... he would always be talking and drawing at the same time. The problem is, nothing was ever labeled. So you go back and look at that and you have no idea what that drawing was about. But yeah, he would always be drawing something. I know there are probably millions of examples, but could you bring any to mind of things that he demonstrated in a picture that you remember. Pretty much every scene that we shot on. Certainly, <i>The Return</i> he drew. I mean, I have-- pick a scene and I can tell you, you know, what the drawing looks like because it's-- He did everything in a drawing. I asked Sabrina to describe how David explained one of my favorite scenes from <i>The Return</i>. It happens in the first few minutes of the third episode. Agent Cooper climbs through a window and steps into a dark room. There's a woman sitting on a couch wearing a red velvet dress. And what's strange about her is that she doesn't appear to have any eyes. Still, she reaches for Cooper's hand. They leave the room via a ladder, which leads to a trap door. Outside, we see that they're in outer space. He would have the picture of the room she was in. A drawing of the circular couch was kind of a specific way where she was going to be how she was going to move the stairs, she would go up. So everything was, it was kind of like a map drawing. And then as far as specifics, say, in a costume or makeup, he would draw those separately and have it very specific. And I think the art department, I have a book that they had that Ruth, who was the production designer, kept of the big scenes that he would draw out for her. And I still have that, which is a great book.<i>Where are we?</i> Did he ever explain something to you or draw something for you where you thought, I'm not going to be able to help you realize that on screen? When were were those moments where you thought, oh my gosh, I'm not going to be able to achieve it? Never. Because I knew that David would not accept no. So it was always kind of more, how are we going to do this? When he was writing, he didn't want me to give him ideas, but he would say, you could ask questions. So if there was something I didn't understand, I'd say, well, what about this? Does this make sense? One of the things Sabrina had to figure out how to do on <i>The Return</i> was to bring back one of the show's best loved characters, and her log. How did you pull that off? That's after the break. All right, everybody, your regular host Rico Gagliano here taking just a moment to tell you about MUBI. It is the global film company that champions great cinema, bringing it to you wherever you are in as many ways as we possibly can. We stream movies, we produce them, we release them in theaters, movies from any country, from legendary auteurs or brilliant first timers. We've always got something new for you to discover. And ready to be discovered or rediscovered, on MUBI right now is David Lynch's <i>Twin Peaks</i>. The show so groundbreaking Hollywood pros like Sabrina campaigned to work on it. This is a series that presaged by nearly a decade, the era of great streaming TV we're in now. Without it, I mean, we probably eventually would have had shows like <i>The Sopranos</i>,<i>True Detective</i>, et cetera, et cetera. But it might have taken a while longer. Lynch and his co-creator Mark Frost showed a lot of filmmakers just how many rules you could break on TV and still have a hit. Maybe you weren't around for <i>Twin Peaks</i> first run and you want to see where it all started. Or maybe you too spent a few years in the early 90s getting your workmates to watch VHS tapes you made of every episode. Either way, every episode awaits you on MUBI. The original two seasons and<i>Twin Peaks: a limited event series</i> aka <i>Twin Peaks The Return</i>. Subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com and it is all yours. You will find links and all the info you need in the show notes of this episode. And meanwhile, I'll return you to Simran, Sabrina and the rest of this episode. In 2017, Sabrina and David Lynch, along with Mark Frost, were at work on the long anticipated third series, <i>Twin Peaks: The Return</i>. One character they were keen to bring back was Margaret Lanterman. You might know her as the Log Lady. Catherine Coulson, who played her, was ill at the time and nearing the end of her life. In the show the character is too. It makes for an incredibly poignant series of scenes.<i>Hark!</i><i>Electricity is humming.</i><i>You hear it in the mountains and rivers.</i><i>You see it dance among the seas and stars.</i><i>And glowing around the moon.</i><i>But in these days the glow is dying.</i> How did you make those scenes happen? Because I can imagine it was quite a delicate situation. How did you bring those scenes to life? So originally, when we had contacted Catherine, she was all excited about it. And this was probably maybe even in 2014. We originally talked with her and then 2015 when we started pre-production, things had changed drastically for her, so, but we didn't know that. And so Catherine's parts were going to be spread out. They were going to be some in Washington, some in LA. And then she kind of said, well, she wasn't really going to be able to probably come to LA, but she could do the Washington stuff. And so David was trying to rewrite it so that everything could be shot in Washington. And then, you know, little by little, we got this impression that things were not quite right. And she finally had to say she had cancer. It got to the point where she wasn't able to travel, we found out. We had been shooting all day on set in Washington, And then that evening we went up to David's room and I think it was just me, Peter Deming and David. I think it was just the three of us that were there and watching on a, you know, computer screen and seeing how the setup was and David approving the way it looked. You know, getting it exactly right. How do you reflect on on that experience now? You know how important was it to to have Catherine in the final series of <i>Twin Peaks</i>? She was kind of like the soul of <i>Twin Peaks</i>, in a way. I mean, the character, and Catherine herself, she was a very warm person and such a close friend of David's, and it was so important for her to be in it. David would have done anything to make sure she was in the show. And obviously Catherine made sure she was in the show too. It was super important. Catherine is <i>Twin Peaks</i>. You can't think of <i>Twin Peaks</i> without the Log Lady. When it came to making a third series of <i>Twin Peaks</i>, 25 years after the fact, I'm wondering how that experience made you reflect on the passing of time in your own life. You know, I didn't really even think about it. I always think that I'm still the same age, so it doesn't seem like time has passed. It just seems like it's all together. It kind of runs together. It's one of those timelines that just is very short, although, you know, things have changed so drastically, right? I mean, I was the Production Coordinator and kind of not even much of a part of <i>Twin Peaks</i> when I was there then. And on this one, I ended up being in a much different role. So things definitely changed, but I didn't-- I don't feel like it changed. I don't know how to explain it, but I still see myself the same age. I mean, I was in my 20s, so 26, 27. Yeah, somewhere in there. And you gestured to it there, but on <i>The Return</i> you actually had a different role. You were not the Production Coordinator anymore. Would you like to tell us what your role was? Because it was pretty important. I ended up being one of the Executive Producers, so that was pretty cool. A lot of David's closest and longest running also collaborators were women yourself, of course, but also his Casting Director, Johanna Ray, the late Patricia Norris, who was the costume designer on most of his films, the brilliant editor Mary Sweeney Catherine, who was obviously an actress but had been part of the David Lynch world since as early as <i>Eraserhead</i>. What qualities do you think all of these women that worked with him over a long time have or had in common? You know, speaking for myself, you know, I wanted to work with David. David was just a brilliant mind. It was a creative mind, and I'm drawn to that. And I just wanted to do the best that I could. Patty, you know, was amazing. She also did production design and costume design on his things if she could. You know, I just think that working with David was a dream, and I think we're all people who are good at what we do. And David allowed us to grow and expand on what we were doing. And I think having that faith in you makes you work even harder and makes you work better. What did you learn from some of those women that you worked with that were part of this sort of David Lynch extended universe? I have to say, I learned a lot from all of these women. Patti probably the most. Patti was a very strong lady who was an amazing woman and did so much and was so good at her job, but had, you know, outside of that, she was just this really wonderful lady and she just wouldn't suffer fools gladly. You know, she was somebody if you weren't doing what you're supposed to be doing, she didn't have time for you. And I've learned from that for sure, because I'm a little could be a little too soft hearted. You know, I have to really use my judgment and say, you know this as much as I really like you, you know, I'm going to have to let you go. That kind of thing. So I've learned that, which is a hard thing for me. I like to try and please everybody not to, you know, make those kind of hard decisions. But I'm very comfortable in doing that now, if that makes sense. I feel much more empowered in some way. And I learned a lot of that from Patti. And Mary Sweeney was the same. You know, Mary also can be very good at what she does and doesn't take no for an answer and just does what she needs to do. And of these really brilliant, singular female characters in his films, which one resonates with you the most when you kind of think back on those women in the wider body of work? I really love the Laura Dern character in <i>Inland Empire</i>, just like in <i>Mulholland Drive</i> Naomi Watts' character. There are these women who perhaps come in naively and have questions, but are our strong women and encounter things that alter their lives for either good or for bad. So I kind of like that they have these kind of they're multidimensional, you know, they're not just a singular strong woman or a soft woman or anything like that. They have these different pieces of them. What's something that you think David might have learned from you? There was somebody who I was dealing with, like a negotiation kind of thing, and it was a guy. And the guy was super rude. Like, super rude to me, like talking down to me. And David called the guy back because I told him I said, well, this is what the guy said. And David called that guy back and that guy was saying,"Oh, you know, she's just a stupid woman."You know, she doesn't understand these things, blah, blah, blah." And David kind of just said, you know,"You don't know what you're talking about." But once he hung up with that guy, he just looked at me and he said,"I didn't understand that women were were treated like this"or that you were being treated like this." He was kind of astounded that this guy was talking to me in this way, that he would never have expected this guy to talk because I was a woman, just because I was a woman. And of course, you know, we were all devastated when he passed away earlier this year. And I hope it's okay for me to ask this, but what is it like when somebody you've worked with that closely and you know, you've helped to realize their art for many, many years, what is that like when when someone like that passes? It's quite honestly, it's devastating. I mean, it's still devastating. I mean, I'm starting to tear up just thinking about it. It's a huge loss. I think it's a huge loss for everyone. He was somebody I talked to every day. I would text with, I would FaceTime with. I would, you know, see him. So it's like, you know, losing part of your family. It's it's it's horrifying. And, you know, I know he had this kind of philosophy, now, I shouldn't say kind of, he did have the the viewpoint that, you know, this was just another step on a journey. And it wasn't something to really, it's sad for sure, but it's something that's also uplifting and happy in a way, because he's moving on to something bigger and better. And I try and think like that. But I'm very small minded and I just think about my loss a lot, so I don't know. I'm hoping that I can start becoming the bigger person and be more, evolved and understand that, you know, he is still here and just all part of the universe, which is, I guess, a good way of looking at it. Something I found fascinating about Sabrina's work with David Lynch was how she saw her role. As a producer she didn't seem to see it as her job to ask Lynch why he made certain decisions, or even what they meant. Instead, she asked different questions. How do you picture this scene? And would this work as a way of making it happen? It's really moving to hear how much Lynch trusted her. She's been a really important part of making sure his legacy remains in safe hands, and keeping his creative secrets in safe hands to. And that's the MUBI Podcast for this week. Follow us to hear more stories about the Ladies of Lynch. Next week we're staying behind the scenes and talking to someone whose job it was to understand how a lady of Lynch might dress. His personal taste in women from what I know, you think of, like, Jessica Rabbit, a strong woman and red lips, high heels. You know, some might say it airs on fetishism. You know, it was an early Hollywood idea of what was considered conventionally feminine and attractive. And I'm still partial to that. Our guest is costume designer and stylist Heidi Bivens. Make sure you follow us so you don't miss it. Meanwhile, if you love the show, leave a five star review wherever you listen. And if you've got questions, comments, or you're thinking about sending us your CV inside a box of donuts, our email is podcast@mubi.com And now let's roll credits. This show is written and hosted by me, Simran Hans. Christian Coons is our editor. Our original music is composed by Martin Austwick. Ciara McEniff is our producer. Our booking producer is Ollie Charles and our assistant producer is Kat Kowalczyk. Phoebe Unterman recorded Sabrina Sutherland and special thanks to Paul Smith who recorded me. This show is executive produced by Efe Çakarel, Rico Gagliano, Michael Tacca and Daniel Kasman. And finally, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to mubi.com

Thanks for listening and don't forget: 34:18

keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.