{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3.92,"endTime":5.857,"body":"Thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3.92,"endTime":5.857,"body":"jumping in, Jameson."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":5.961,"endTime":7.609,"body":"I'm really excited to talk through this topic."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":7.697,"endTime":9.769,"body":"I followed you for a long time and we've had a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":9.777,"endTime":12.377,"body":"lot of different interactions over the past"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":9.777,"endTime":12.377,"body":"few years."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":12.441,"endTime":18.305,"body":"But it seems like you're pushing a little"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":12.441,"endTime":18.305,"body":"harder on this ossification subject and the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":18.345,"endTime":25.401,"body":"idea of making calm, rational changes to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":18.345,"endTime":25.401,"body":"Bitcoin to make sure that it can continue to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":25.433,"endTime":29.001,"body":"fulfill the goals that I think at least people"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":25.433,"endTime":29.001,"body":"like us have for it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":29.113,"endTime":32.517,"body":"And I thought it would be a great time to just"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":29.113,"endTime":32.517,"body":"sit down and chat through a lot of this."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":32.661,"endTime":38.381,"body":"Because this topic of ossification, which"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":32.661,"endTime":38.381,"body":"we'll define when we get into it, this topic"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":38.413,"endTime":42.557,"body":"of making protocol changes to Bitcoin, better"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":38.413,"endTime":42.557,"body":"privacy, better scalability, all this stuff"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":42.581,"endTime":48.749,"body":"has been talked about relentlessly over the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":42.581,"endTime":48.749,"body":"years and a lot of the things that I was"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":48.797,"endTime":53.317,"body":"promised when I got into the space don't seem"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":48.797,"endTime":53.317,"body":"like they've come to fruition at least as they"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":53.341,"endTime":54.225,"body":"were promised."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":55.685,"endTime":58.445,"body":"So as there's been kind of a revival around"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":58.485,"endTime":62.973,"body":"this concept of can we make changes to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":58.485,"endTime":62.973,"body":"Bitcoin, specifically with covenants, I think"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":62.989,"endTime":67.737,"body":"it's a really good time to dive into just this"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":62.989,"endTime":67.737,"body":"topic in general."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":67.841,"endTime":71.577,"body":"So I'm excited to talk about ossification"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":67.841,"endTime":71.577,"body":"protocol changes, a lot of different things"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":71.601,"endTime":72.361,"body":"with you today."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":72.473,"endTime":74.425,"body":"But before we get too deep into that, why"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":74.425,"endTime":77.329,"body":"don't you just introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":74.425,"endTime":77.329,"body":"I know you haven't been on the show before and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":77.377,"endTime":81.833,"body":"my audience is not a bitcoiner only audience,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":77.377,"endTime":81.833,"body":"so they may not know you."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":81.849,"endTime":85.169,"body":"So I'd love for you to just introduce"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":81.849,"endTime":85.169,"body":"yourself, tell people who you are and then"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":85.177,"endTime":86.685,"body":"we'll dive into the topic at hand."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":87.305,"endTime":92.593,"body":"Well, that's okay because I'm"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":87.305,"endTime":92.593,"body":"not a bitcoin owner cypherpunk, a bitcoin only"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":92.649,"endTime":95.605,"body":"guy that is, I mean, and that's why I get"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":92.649,"endTime":95.605,"body":"canceled sometimes."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":97.405,"endTime":99.141,"body":"I'm Jameson Lopp."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":99.213,"endTime":104.221,"body":"I've been in the bitcoin space for a decade"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":104.333,"endTime":113.949,"body":"now, full time, focused on security, self"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":104.333,"endTime":113.949,"body":"custody and in general just doing a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":114.117,"endTime":116.149,"body":"research, side projects."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":116.277,"endTime":119.665,"body":"So I'm always just trying to understand"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":120.045,"endTime":126.235,"body":"Bitcoin better and try to figure out where"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":120.045,"endTime":126.235,"body":"we're going."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":126.615,"endTime":130.943,"body":"And so, you know, I'm a technical guy,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":126.615,"endTime":130.943,"body":"computer science background."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":131.079,"endTime":137.359,"body":"I'm the chief security officer at CASA where"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":131.079,"endTime":137.359,"body":"we basically focus on helping high net worth"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":137.447,"endTime":143.595,"body":"individuals set up extremely robust multisig"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":137.447,"endTime":143.595,"body":"self custody."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":144.135,"endTime":156.219,"body":"And I guess the short version of a lot of why"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":144.135,"endTime":156.219,"body":"I do what I do is I feel like Bitcoin is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":156.267,"endTime":159.427,"body":"fundamentally a collaborative open project."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":159.571,"endTime":162.851,"body":"And so the most important thing that we can do"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":162.923,"endTime":169.099,"body":"is continue talking about it, researching it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":162.923,"endTime":169.099,"body":"discussing it and proposing ways to improve"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":169.147,"endTime":169.643,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":169.779,"endTime":172.619,"body":"So I guess you could say that I see"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":172.667,"endTime":177.667,"body":"ossification as kind of an existential crisis"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":172.667,"endTime":177.667,"body":"to one of the fundamental strengths of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":177.691,"endTime":178.255,"body":"project."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":179.525,"endTime":181.245,"body":"Yeah, I definitely"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":179.525,"endTime":181.245,"body":"understand that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":181.325,"endTime":184.653,"body":"And I think something that would be helpful"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":181.325,"endTime":184.653,"body":"here, if you don't mind just kind of defining"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":184.709,"endTime":190.717,"body":"how you view ossification and specifically if"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":184.709,"endTime":190.717,"body":"there are, like, natural and unnatural types"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":190.741,"endTime":194.141,"body":"of ossification, because that was something"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":190.741,"endTime":194.141,"body":"that was really interesting that you brought"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":194.173,"endTime":198.973,"body":"up in your debate with Jimmy Song in Lugano,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":194.173,"endTime":198.973,"body":"which I was able to go back and watch, was"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":198.989,"endTime":202.613,"body":"that there's, like, natural ossification that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":198.989,"endTime":202.613,"body":"will happen and there's unnatural types that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":202.629,"endTime":203.957,"body":"we can force into place."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":204.021,"endTime":206.373,"body":"So maybe just define ossification and kind of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":206.389,"endTime":209.685,"body":"hit on those two different ways that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":206.389,"endTime":209.685,"body":"ossification can happen."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":210.905,"endTime":211.457,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":211.561,"endTime":217.417,"body":"So ossification, from a dictionary term sense,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":217.521,"endTime":226.645,"body":"just means sort of calcification or turning to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":217.521,"endTime":226.645,"body":"bone, making something more brittle and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":226.945,"endTime":232.165,"body":"slowing down its flexibility and ability to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":226.945,"endTime":232.165,"body":"grow and change."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":232.585,"endTime":241.735,"body":"From protocol perspective, I actually see this"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":232.585,"endTime":241.735,"body":"almost as a law of network physics."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":242.195,"endTime":249.563,"body":"And that basically means that when you have a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":242.195,"endTime":249.563,"body":"protocol, which is just a fancy technical way"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":249.579,"endTime":258.211,"body":"of saying a shared communication language, in"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":249.579,"endTime":258.211,"body":"order to accomplish some specific task, that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":258.283,"endTime":266.045,"body":"protocol, the value of it grows as the network"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":258.283,"endTime":266.045,"body":"grows, as the number of entities using the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":266.085,"endTime":272.517,"body":"protocol to speak the same language with each"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":266.085,"endTime":272.517,"body":"other grows, and as the size and the value of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":272.541,"endTime":279.685,"body":"the network grows, it also becomes more and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":272.541,"endTime":279.685,"body":"more difficult to coordinate changing the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":279.725,"endTime":280.477,"body":"protocol."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":280.621,"endTime":282.541,"body":"So, you know, you can almost think of it as,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":282.573,"endTime":287.501,"body":"like, you know what, how difficult would it be"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":282.573,"endTime":287.501,"body":"to make fundamental changes to the English"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":287.573,"endTime":292.225,"body":"language or any language that has a billion"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":287.573,"endTime":292.225,"body":"adopters?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":292.925,"endTime":299.005,"body":"Those type of changes do sometimes happen"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":292.925,"endTime":299.005,"body":"organically over extremely long periods of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":299.045,"endTime":299.625,"body":"time."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":299.925,"endTime":302.005,"body":"But you can't just make sudden changes."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":302.085,"endTime":307.677,"body":"Otherwise it would be chaos and confusion, and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":302.085,"endTime":307.677,"body":"people would no longer know how to talk to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":307.701,"endTime":312.917,"body":"each other, and the value of the network would"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":307.701,"endTime":312.917,"body":"kind of drop off a cliff."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":313.101,"endTime":322.959,"body":"So this we've seen play out with network"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":313.101,"endTime":322.959,"body":"protocols like tcpip, like smtp, email"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":323.047,"endTime":323.835,"body":"protocol."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":324.175,"endTime":326.999,"body":"Really, any of these fundamental protocols"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":327.047,"endTime":331.719,"body":"that hit mass adoption with hundreds of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":327.047,"endTime":331.719,"body":"millions or billions of people using them tend"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":331.767,"endTime":332.623,"body":"to ossify."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":332.719,"endTime":336.415,"body":"So this is the natural progression, I think,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":336.575,"endTime":342.279,"body":"of a network kind of collapsing under its own"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":336.575,"endTime":342.279,"body":"weight."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":342.367,"endTime":349.237,"body":"It becomes unable to change because everyone"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":342.367,"endTime":349.237,"body":"understands that trying to do so would be a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":349.261,"endTime":351.865,"body":"net negative for the value of the network."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":352.325,"endTime":354.725,"body":"And what we're talking about these days with"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":354.765,"endTime":363.413,"body":"Bitcoin ossification is almost more of a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":354.765,"endTime":363.413,"body":"artificial, preemptive, accelerated"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":363.469,"endTime":370.781,"body":"ossification of saying that, well, bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":363.469,"endTime":370.781,"body":"ain't broke, don't Try to fix it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":370.973,"endTime":376.297,"body":"There are unknown unknowns, and any change"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":370.973,"endTime":376.297,"body":"that you make could have negative"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":376.361,"endTime":377.049,"body":"consequences."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":377.137,"endTime":379.361,"body":"Therefore, we should stick with what we know,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":379.513,"endTime":385.457,"body":"stop changing the Bitcoin protocol and just"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":379.513,"endTime":385.457,"body":"kind of declare it ossified, even though"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":385.481,"endTime":387.433,"body":"there's no one who can declare it ossified."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":387.609,"endTime":389.745,"body":"Due to the sort of game theory and governance"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":389.785,"endTime":397.585,"body":"of Bitcoin as a protocol, if enough people are"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":389.785,"endTime":397.585,"body":"apathetic and going to veto or not participate"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":397.665,"endTime":404.419,"body":"in upgrades and changes, then it's certainly"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":397.665,"endTime":404.419,"body":"possible for preemptive ossification to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":404.467,"endTime":405.055,"body":"happen."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":406.155,"endTime":409.731,"body":"Yeah. So the inevitable is"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":406.155,"endTime":409.731,"body":"ossification at some point."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":409.843,"endTime":415.883,"body":"The conversation right now is more around, do"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":409.843,"endTime":415.883,"body":"we want to force ossification faster than the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":415.899,"endTime":418.419,"body":"weight of the network itself would cause it to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":415.899,"endTime":418.419,"body":"happen?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":418.587,"endTime":423.947,"body":"Or do we want to understand that we literally"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":418.587,"endTime":423.947,"body":"cannot stop ossification at some point, but"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":424.051,"endTime":429.243,"body":"take the chance now before that natural"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":424.051,"endTime":429.243,"body":"ossification happens, that hardening of the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":429.339,"endTime":430.735,"body":"consensus changes."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":431.705,"endTime":433.745,"body":"If we want to take advantage of that right now"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":433.825,"endTime":436.705,"body":"to continue to improve the protocol, and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":433.825,"endTime":436.705,"body":"that's."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":436.785,"endTime":439.921,"body":"We're in this gap right now where we do have"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":436.785,"endTime":439.921,"body":"the chance to still do that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":439.953,"endTime":441.033,"body":"It feels harder and harder."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":441.089,"endTime":443.809,"body":"Like, I feel like that natural ossification"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":443.937,"endTime":449.137,"body":"since I got into Bitcoin in 2017, I'm a little"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":443.937,"endTime":449.137,"body":"bit of a late bloomer when it comes and comes"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":449.161,"endTime":453.825,"body":"to the terms of when we got into the space,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":449.161,"endTime":453.825,"body":"but it seemed like there was a lot more"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":453.865,"endTime":454.817,"body":"openness at that point."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":454.881,"endTime":456.689,"body":"Obviously there were the block size wars and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":456.737,"endTime":460.939,"body":"that was not a consensus change that went"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":456.737,"endTime":460.939,"body":"through, but there was a lot more kind of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":460.987,"endTime":466.339,"body":"discussion and ideation over what could happen"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":460.987,"endTime":466.339,"body":"seemingly leading up to that and, like, kind"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":466.347,"endTime":467.235,"body":"of hit a wall."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":467.355,"endTime":469.043,"body":"And it feels like in the last few years that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":469.059,"endTime":471.923,"body":"I've been in this space, there hasn't been"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":469.059,"endTime":471.923,"body":"much progress."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":471.979,"endTime":475.619,"body":"And do you feel like that is just the natural"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":471.979,"endTime":475.619,"body":"ossification?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":475.667,"endTime":480.731,"body":"Like, we do have many more people in the space"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":475.667,"endTime":480.731,"body":"now in 2024 than we did in 2017."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":480.923,"endTime":485.805,"body":"Or do you think that that's some sort of,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":480.923,"endTime":485.805,"body":"like, narrative taking hold, that's preventing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":485.845,"endTime":489.037,"body":"people from having an interest in proposing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":485.845,"endTime":489.037,"body":"changes or trying to get them through"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":489.061,"endTime":490.425,"body":"softworks, et cetera?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":492.365,"endTime":500.421,"body":"So the block size wars, I think"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":492.365,"endTime":500.421,"body":"on their face, it was this debate about do we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":500.493,"endTime":507.437,"body":"prioritize the cost of transacting or do we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":500.493,"endTime":507.437,"body":"prioritize the cost of auditing the system and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":507.461,"endTime":514.071,"body":"running a full node?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":507.461,"endTime":514.071,"body":"But underneath that, I would say it was"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":514.183,"endTime":518.195,"body":"actually a war about the governance of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":514.183,"endTime":518.195,"body":"protocol."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":518.575,"endTime":519.875,"body":"And the."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":521.175,"endTime":523.935,"body":"On one side, it seemed like the quote unquote,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":523.975,"endTime":531.903,"body":"big blockers were more in favor of giving"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":523.975,"endTime":531.903,"body":"miners more governance power in determining"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":531.999,"endTime":539.583,"body":"the future and path forward of the protocol,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":531.999,"endTime":539.583,"body":"whereas the small blockers were more in favor"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":539.639,"endTime":544.075,"body":"of the independent node operators retaining"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":539.639,"endTime":544.075,"body":"more power."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":544.495,"endTime":552.315,"body":"And I would say the independent node operator"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":544.495,"endTime":552.315,"body":"idea won out."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":553.055,"endTime":560.435,"body":"And along with that seemed to come a fair"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":553.055,"endTime":560.435,"body":"amount of trauma."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":561.615,"endTime":568.873,"body":"And the result was that we didn't even really"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":561.615,"endTime":568.873,"body":"have anyone seriously suggesting consensus"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":568.929,"endTime":571.245,"body":"changes for several years after that."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":572.745,"endTime":576.977,"body":"And so then we did get the taproot upgrade."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":577.121,"endTime":585.561,"body":"But ever since then, even though we've had"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":577.121,"endTime":585.561,"body":"some proposals, a lot of the proposals have"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":585.593,"endTime":588.593,"body":"not come with proposed activation parameters."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":588.649,"endTime":592.433,"body":"So it's like we still have a decent amount of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":592.489,"endTime":596.457,"body":"brain power that's thinking about ways to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":592.489,"endTime":596.457,"body":"improve Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":596.641,"endTime":606.225,"body":"But few developers have the interest in"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":596.641,"endTime":606.225,"body":"becoming a consensus change champion and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":606.265,"endTime":610.845,"body":"having to deal with all of the negativity that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":606.265,"endTime":610.845,"body":"goes along with that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":611.585,"endTime":614.033,"body":"Yeah, and I think we've seen"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":611.585,"endTime":614.033,"body":"that with even some of the big covenants"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":614.089,"endTime":619.223,"body":"proposals like with CTV and Jeremy Rubin tried"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":614.089,"endTime":619.223,"body":"to start pushing a little bit towards"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":619.279,"endTime":621.751,"body":"consensus change and propose some activation"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":619.279,"endTime":621.751,"body":"methods."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":621.783,"endTime":627.311,"body":"And there was a kind of an all out war against"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":621.783,"endTime":627.311,"body":"him as a result, and there was a lot of mess."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":627.383,"endTime":632.039,"body":"And thankfully he's still in the space and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":627.383,"endTime":632.039,"body":"still kind of ideating on how we can do"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":632.087,"endTime":634.955,"body":"covenants in smart and efficient ways."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":635.255,"endTime":636.799,"body":"But there's definitely been a lot of examples"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":636.847,"endTime":642.111,"body":"of when people do propose activation methods,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":636.847,"endTime":642.111,"body":"they get hit pretty hard for it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":642.143,"endTime":648.065,"body":"I know someone was proposing activation"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":642.143,"endTime":648.065,"body":"methods for Ellen Hance a couple days ago on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":648.105,"endTime":651.977,"body":"Twitter and was immediately called out by"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":648.105,"endTime":651.977,"body":"Bitcoin core dev as being an attack on Bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":652.041,"endTime":654.041,"body":"because they were proposing activation"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":652.041,"endTime":654.041,"body":"methods."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":654.113,"endTime":659.137,"body":"Which is that feels kind of like where we're"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":654.113,"endTime":659.137,"body":"at is even just the idea of not even having"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":659.161,"endTime":659.921,"body":"people run the code."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":659.953,"endTime":661.657,"body":"But even just saying this is how this could be"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":661.681,"endTime":665.065,"body":"activated is kind of an attack somehow."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":665.225,"endTime":670.521,"body":"That's one of the fundamental"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":665.225,"endTime":670.521,"body":"disagreements that I had with the bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":670.593,"endTime":675.065,"body":"subreddit moderators nine years ago."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":676.285,"endTime":679.341,"body":"The early days of the scaling debates was that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":679.373,"endTime":689.465,"body":"they basically enacted a rule saying that you"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":679.373,"endTime":689.465,"body":"can't even talk about proposed forks because"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":690.605,"endTime":695.541,"body":"that is detrimental to bitcoin consensus."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":695.613,"endTime":696.225,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":696.565,"endTime":702.209,"body":"And I'm like, well, if we can't discuss"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":696.565,"endTime":702.209,"body":"proposed changes to Bitcoin, what are we even"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":702.257,"endTime":703.097,"body":"doing here?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":702.257,"endTime":703.097,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":703.161,"endTime":708.833,"body":"And so, you know, I considered that a form of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":703.161,"endTime":708.833,"body":"censorship."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":708.889,"endTime":714.801,"body":"And at the time I actually went to go become a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":708.889,"endTime":714.801,"body":"moderator of the Bitcoin XT Reddit, which is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":714.833,"endTime":720.473,"body":"one of the many reasons why people like to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":714.833,"endTime":720.473,"body":"cancel me every now and then, because I dared"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":720.649,"endTime":728.317,"body":"to go against the sort of mainstream consensus"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":720.649,"endTime":728.317,"body":"at the time, but it was, it was less That I"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":728.341,"endTime":735.525,"body":"was like in favor of that particular block"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":728.341,"endTime":735.525,"body":"size increase BIP and more, that I felt like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":735.605,"endTime":746.597,"body":"it was a negative way of maintaining"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":735.605,"endTime":746.597,"body":"discussion, healthy discussion in the space."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":746.661,"endTime":748.941,"body":"And so I get it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":748.973,"endTime":752.373,"body":"I mean the bitcoin moderators have the whole"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":752.429,"endTime":762.479,"body":"thing about if you don't maintain some"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":752.429,"endTime":762.479,"body":"semblance of order within your walled garden,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":762.567,"endTime":771.551,"body":"then it can turn into wild weeds and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":762.567,"endTime":771.551,"body":"overgrowth and the sort of quality of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":771.583,"endTime":772.639,"body":"discussion can go down."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":772.687,"endTime":775.135,"body":"But I think that it went down significantly"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":775.295,"endTime":780.463,"body":"just from that one rule and they were a bit"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":775.295,"endTime":780.463,"body":"heavy handed about that."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":780.519,"endTime":787.675,"body":"But you know, we have so many different"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":780.519,"endTime":787.675,"body":"platforms now that we can discuss things on."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":788.055,"endTime":795.087,"body":"And kind of to your point, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":788.055,"endTime":795.087,"body":"almost, it's almost asking for trouble of even"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":795.151,"endTime":798.407,"body":"talking about proposed consensus changes on"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":795.151,"endTime":798.407,"body":"social media."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":798.471,"endTime":803.831,"body":"Because I mean the vast majority of people on"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":798.471,"endTime":803.831,"body":"social media aren't even really relevant or"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":803.903,"endTime":809.555,"body":"participating in consensus, technical"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":803.903,"endTime":809.555,"body":"consensus changes for the network."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":811.095,"endTime":814.391,"body":"Yeah, it can be maybe"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":811.095,"endTime":814.391,"body":"helpful to just find like rough community"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":814.463,"endTime":817.895,"body":"consensus, but even then, like, if you're"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":814.463,"endTime":817.895,"body":"talking like Bitcoin Twitter, it's a tiny"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":817.935,"endTime":822.551,"body":"fraction of the bitcoin ecosystem that's going"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":817.935,"endTime":822.551,"body":"to actively engage in a discussion around"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":822.743,"endTime":825.595,"body":"activation parameters for a covenant or"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":822.743,"endTime":825.595,"body":"something like that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":826.135,"endTime":830.215,"body":"It's interesting, I think, like you talked"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":826.135,"endTime":830.215,"body":"about that censorship ultimately prevents"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":830.255,"endTime":834.631,"body":"finding consensus if there's not a good way"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":830.255,"endTime":834.631,"body":"and there's not an openness to just having the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":834.663,"endTime":835.385,"body":"discussions."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":835.535,"endTime":837.813,"body":"Like having open, nuanced, calm, rational"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":837.869,"endTime":838.269,"body":"discussions."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":838.317,"endTime":839.717,"body":"Like obviously I'm not saying anyone should"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":839.741,"endTime":844.093,"body":"just go crazy on either side and start"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":839.741,"endTime":844.093,"body":"attacking, start attacking people."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":844.149,"endTime":847.629,"body":"But if you can't have that calm, rational"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":844.149,"endTime":847.629,"body":"discussion, you're never going to find"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":847.677,"endTime":848.149,"body":"consensus."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":848.197,"endTime":852.197,"body":"And ultimately you will then by default be"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":852.221,"endTime":854.237,"body":"choosing to leave bitcoin as it is."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":854.381,"endTime":855.225,"body":"If you have."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":856.005,"endTime":858.545,"body":"It's also a problem with each"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":856.005,"endTime":858.545,"body":"platform."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":860.485,"endTime":864.865,"body":"Every discussion platform has its own set of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":860.485,"endTime":864.865,"body":"game theory."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":865.315,"endTime":880.935,"body":"So you know, Twitter X, for example, with its"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":865.315,"endTime":880.935,"body":"short form, really prioritizes quick emotional"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":881.755,"endTime":882.795,"body":"reactions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":882.955,"endTime":887.443,"body":"You know, dunking on people kind of like it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":887.459,"endTime":889.427,"body":"doesn't really matter if what you say is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":887.459,"endTime":889.427,"body":"logical."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":889.491,"endTime":895.067,"body":"Like if it get, if it emotes some sort of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":889.491,"endTime":895.067,"body":"quick knee jerk response, then it's going to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":895.091,"endTime":896.931,"body":"get engagement and do well."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":897.003,"endTime":899.171,"body":"And so that's the feedback loop that it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":899.203,"endTime":903.735,"body":"creates of the type of interactions that you"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":899.203,"endTime":903.735,"body":"should expect to get on there."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":904.635,"endTime":913.059,"body":"You know, Reddit is kind of similar with the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":904.635,"endTime":913.059,"body":"upvote, downvote system in the sense that if,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":913.147,"endTime":919.595,"body":"if you go against the grain of what the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":913.147,"endTime":919.595,"body":"terminally online redditors are thinking, then"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":919.635,"endTime":922.551,"body":"you're, you're just going to get downvoted"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":919.635,"endTime":922.551,"body":"into Oblivion."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":922.723,"endTime":929.935,"body":"Once again, the quick, witty retorts that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":922.723,"endTime":929.935,"body":"don't take much effort to read and parse and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":929.975,"endTime":936.711,"body":"think through logically are going to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":929.975,"endTime":936.711,"body":"outperform the longer form nuanced"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":936.783,"endTime":937.751,"body":"discussions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":937.943,"endTime":942.767,"body":"So I'm kind of of the mind that for those"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":942.791,"endTime":950.391,"body":"longer form nuanced discussions, the better"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":942.791,"endTime":950.391,"body":"platforms are mailing lists or potentially"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":950.503,"endTime":957.867,"body":"just simple linear discussion forums that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":950.503,"endTime":957.867,"body":"aren't manipulated with upvotes down votes,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":957.931,"endTime":959.815,"body":"likes, so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":960.555,"endTime":964.187,"body":"Yeah, I know delving Bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":960.555,"endTime":964.187,"body":"has been a really good resource that I've"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":964.211,"endTime":964.843,"body":"enjoyed following."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":964.899,"endTime":966.987,"body":"I haven't actually contributed much to it, but"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":967.011,"endTime":970.587,"body":"that I've enjoyed following that's had, I"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":967.011,"endTime":970.587,"body":"think, a lot better a discussion than any"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":970.611,"endTime":971.739,"body":"other platform I've been on."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":971.787,"endTime":973.107,"body":"I haven't followed the mailing list, but"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":973.131,"endTime":977.115,"body":"that's just because I feel like actually"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":973.131,"endTime":977.115,"body":"following a mailing list is very time"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":977.155,"endTime":978.971,"body":"consuming just in the format."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":979.083,"endTime":980.555,"body":"So I haven't bothered too much with that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":980.635,"endTime":982.775,"body":"But delving Bitcoin has been useful there."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":983.365,"endTime":986.469,"body":"I want to kind of pull us back to why this"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":986.517,"endTime":987.705,"body":"discussion today."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":988.885,"endTime":991.373,"body":"And it's felt like for a long time that we're"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":991.389,"endTime":996.805,"body":"kind of at a fork in the road in bitcoin,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":991.389,"endTime":996.805,"body":"where if we leave things as they are, there's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":996.845,"endTime":1001.133,"body":"general agreement, there's a very limited"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":996.845,"endTime":1001.133,"body":"ability to support a good portion of the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1001.149,"endTime":1002.981,"body":"population on Bitcoin as it is today."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1003.053,"endTime":1004.581,"body":"Even when we're talking lightning."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1004.773,"endTime":1008.906,"body":"I think the number that you gave in Lugano was"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1004.773,"endTime":1008.906,"body":"100 million."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1008.959,"endTime":1012.731,"body":"I know there's been different estimates, but I"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1008.959,"endTime":1012.731,"body":"think 100 million is probably the most"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1012.803,"endTime":1017.235,"body":"consensus that I've seen around roughly how"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1012.803,"endTime":1017.235,"body":"many users we could support even with using"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1017.275,"endTime":1020.415,"body":"lightning, because they still require"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1017.275,"endTime":1020.415,"body":"lightning channels for each of those users."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1021.475,"endTime":1026.075,"body":"And if we leave things as they are, we're"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1021.475,"endTime":1026.075,"body":"necessarily choosing that we're going to limit"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1026.115,"endTime":1033.187,"body":"who can access the base layer and the bigger"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1026.115,"endTime":1033.187,"body":"or not bigger, but equally as important issue"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1033.251,"endTime":1037.845,"body":"in my mind is that privacy on Bitcoin is"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1033.251,"endTime":1037.845,"body":"obviously quite poor."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1037.995,"endTime":1042.329,"body":"I think you said in a podcast that we did"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1037.995,"endTime":1042.329,"body":"while we were at the Plan B forum in Logano as"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1042.337,"endTime":1047.105,"body":"well, was essentially like privacy is the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1042.337,"endTime":1047.105,"body":"antithesis of how bitcoin was designed."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1047.145,"endTime":1048.545,"body":"It's designed to be transparent."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1048.585,"endTime":1050.129,"body":"It's designed to reveal all of this"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1050.177,"endTime":1051.473,"body":"information to the world."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1051.649,"endTime":1053.953,"body":"And to go against that grain is incredibly"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1054.009,"endTime":1056.841,"body":"difficult with the way that it's built today."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1057.033,"endTime":1059.057,"body":"And so we kind of have these two paths right"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1059.081,"endTime":1064.457,"body":"now where self custody is going to get more"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1059.081,"endTime":1064.457,"body":"and more difficult and privacy has gotten more"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1064.481,"endTime":1065.105,"body":"and more difficult."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1065.145,"endTime":1067.209,"body":"Even just in this year, we've seen how much"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1067.257,"endTime":1073.109,"body":"harder that has gotten and how app level"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1067.257,"endTime":1073.109,"body":"privacy is very vulnerable to state level"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1073.157,"endTime":1073.945,"body":"attacks."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1075.285,"endTime":1077.397,"body":"So those are kind of the like the two pillars"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1077.461,"endTime":1079.549,"body":"that I view as core to freedom money."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1079.677,"endTime":1080.989,"body":"And it feels like we're kind of at a fork in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1080.997,"endTime":1086.709,"body":"the road where if we don't choose to improve"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1080.997,"endTime":1086.709,"body":"those two things soon, that natural"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1086.797,"endTime":1091.013,"body":"ossification is going to be too great, the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1086.797,"endTime":1091.013,"body":"weight of the network will be too great to be"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1091.029,"endTime":1092.865,"body":"able to improve on those two things."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1093.645,"endTime":1096.245,"body":"I'm curious, what, what's the driver for you?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1096.285,"endTime":1100.001,"body":"Like I've heard you talk about this very"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1096.285,"endTime":1100.001,"body":"loosely in the past, but I've never seen such"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1100.033,"endTime":1105.321,"body":"a concerted effort from you to talk about this"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1100.033,"endTime":1105.321,"body":"topic as I have at the point before."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1105.353,"endTime":1108.285,"body":"I'm in Logano in your blog post on X recently."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1108.745,"endTime":1111.009,"body":"So I'm curious, what, what was kind of the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1111.177,"endTime":1117.057,"body":"breaking point, if you will, or what's the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1111.177,"endTime":1117.057,"body":"main driver behind you wanting to kind of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1117.121,"endTime":1119.285,"body":"spark these discussions now?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1120.505,"endTime":1129.735,"body":"I think the short version of it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1120.505,"endTime":1129.735,"body":"is actually Bitcoin's success and related to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1129.775,"endTime":1132.995,"body":"that, the institutions arriving."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1133.895,"endTime":1138.903,"body":"And so I think the problem that I'm foreseeing"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1139.039,"endTime":1143.795,"body":"is really complacency because number go up."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1144.615,"endTime":1147.159,"body":"And I think people aren't thinking too"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1147.207,"endTime":1149.435,"body":"critically about why number go up."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1150.735,"endTime":1154.377,"body":"I think the short version that should make it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1154.401,"endTime":1162.553,"body":"more obvious is look, look at the price charts"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1154.401,"endTime":1162.553,"body":"right now and then look at the activity in the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1162.569,"endTime":1164.165,"body":"MEM pool on the blockchain."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1165.345,"endTime":1167.849,"body":"Anyone who's been around for a cycle or two"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1167.977,"endTime":1170.805,"body":"should find this odd."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1171.825,"endTime":1173.885,"body":"And why is it odd?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1174.385,"endTime":1183.587,"body":"It's because in my opinion, all of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1174.385,"endTime":1183.587,"body":"activity is going through a few centralized"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1183.651,"endTime":1184.139,"body":"providers."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1184.187,"endTime":1186.855,"body":"It's going through the ETFs, the custodians,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1187.755,"endTime":1197.283,"body":"and a large portion of the inflows into"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1187.755,"endTime":1197.283,"body":"Bitcoin as a monetary system are now happening"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1197.379,"endTime":1199.115,"body":"through a few gatekeepers."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1199.275,"endTime":1201.523,"body":"And so they're not using many on chain"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1201.579,"endTime":1202.523,"body":"transactions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1202.699,"endTime":1207.577,"body":"And this is a way of scaling Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1207.641,"endTime":1212.665,"body":"And in fact, you know, this was one of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1207.641,"endTime":1212.665,"body":"first proposed ways to scale Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1212.745,"endTime":1218.161,"body":"Hal Finney talked about, I think in the first"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1212.745,"endTime":1218.161,"body":"few months of the network he said, oh, we'll"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1218.193,"endTime":1222.073,"body":"just create a bunch of Bitcoin banks and they"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1218.193,"endTime":1222.073,"body":"will, you know, offload a lot of the on chain"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1222.129,"endTime":1223.005,"body":"transactions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1223.305,"endTime":1226.697,"body":"And so, you know, there are many ways that we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1226.721,"endTime":1235.191,"body":"can scale Bitcoin, but if we're not continuing"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1226.721,"endTime":1235.191,"body":"to make improvements at the protocol level,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1235.383,"endTime":1240.863,"body":"then I expect that the scaling of Bitcoin will"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1235.383,"endTime":1240.863,"body":"come with the trade offs of more"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1240.919,"endTime":1248.655,"body":"centralization, less sovereignty, less privacy"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1240.919,"endTime":1248.655,"body":"in general, the continued erosion of several"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1248.695,"endTime":1254.583,"body":"of the most valuable attributes of this"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1248.695,"endTime":1254.583,"body":"network And I put out some posts recently"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1254.679,"endTime":1261.665,"body":"where I was basically saying that one of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1254.679,"endTime":1261.665,"body":"things that should cause people concern is the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1261.705,"endTime":1267.617,"body":"fact that it's entirely possible for the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1261.705,"endTime":1267.617,"body":"bitcoin exchange rate to go to the moon while"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1267.681,"endTime":1270.977,"body":"we continue to erode these fundamental"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1267.681,"endTime":1270.977,"body":"properties."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1271.161,"endTime":1276.257,"body":"And so that's why I think bitcoin is an"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1271.161,"endTime":1276.257,"body":"amazing system."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1276.361,"endTime":1284.017,"body":"And it's gotten 15 years, almost 16 years so"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1276.361,"endTime":1284.017,"body":"far, because the game theory and the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1284.041,"endTime":1287.513,"body":"incentives were all somewhat magically"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1284.041,"endTime":1287.513,"body":"aligned."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1287.649,"endTime":1293.677,"body":"But I think that this is one particular area"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1287.649,"endTime":1293.677,"body":"in the game, a theory where the incentives are"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1293.741,"endTime":1301.837,"body":"not aligned optimally for the sort of the long"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1293.741,"endTime":1301.837,"body":"term health and longevity of the ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1301.981,"endTime":1307.757,"body":"And so kind of tying that all together, I"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1301.981,"endTime":1307.757,"body":"think that that actually can create a negative"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1307.861,"endTime":1313.477,"body":"feedback loop where if we have more and more"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1307.861,"endTime":1313.477,"body":"money and quote, unquote, bitcoin adoption"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1313.621,"endTime":1322.251,"body":"coming in through a few centralized providers,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1313.621,"endTime":1322.251,"body":"that actually further disincentivizes the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1322.323,"endTime":1327.395,"body":"continued improvement and evolution at the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1322.323,"endTime":1327.395,"body":"protocol level."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1327.555,"endTime":1330.795,"body":"Why?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1327.555,"endTime":1330.795,"body":"Because nobody is going to care about the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1330.835,"endTime":1333.695,"body":"protocol because they're not using the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1330.835,"endTime":1333.695,"body":"protocol."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1334.675,"endTime":1343.797,"body":"To put this in context of one of my favorite"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1334.675,"endTime":1343.797,"body":"network protocols to talk about, smtp, I think"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1343.821,"endTime":1353.917,"body":"if you ask the average person right now, is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1343.821,"endTime":1353.917,"body":"email a global mass adoption success in terms"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1353.941,"endTime":1357.861,"body":"of network protocols?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1353.941,"endTime":1357.861,"body":"And they would say, absolutely, I use email"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1358.013,"endTime":1358.621,"body":"every day."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1358.693,"endTime":1360.973,"body":"Everybody I know uses email every day."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1361.029,"endTime":1363.105,"body":"It has billions and billions of users."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1363.965,"endTime":1368.613,"body":"But if you're a really technical guy like me"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1368.709,"endTime":1374.525,"body":"and you look at the actual architecture of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1368.709,"endTime":1374.525,"body":"email network and how people are using it,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1375.265,"endTime":1378.593,"body":"nobody is actually using the email protocol."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1378.729,"endTime":1384.865,"body":"The email protocol is used by probably a few"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1384.905,"endTime":1387.365,"body":"hundred or few thousand entities."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1388.145,"endTime":1392.273,"body":"90% of people who are using quote, unquote"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1392.329,"endTime":1397.645,"body":"email are actually using one of 10 centralized"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1392.329,"endTime":1397.645,"body":"providers."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1398.205,"endTime":1405.469,"body":"That this is sort of one of the ways that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1398.205,"endTime":1405.469,"body":"email was scaled out, and that's a whole 40"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1405.517,"endTime":1410.221,"body":"year history that I've talked about of how"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1405.517,"endTime":1410.221,"body":"that happened, because it wasn't always that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1410.253,"endTime":1410.757,"body":"way."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1410.901,"endTime":1414.789,"body":"In the early days, lots of individuals or"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1414.877,"endTime":1419.989,"body":"almost every corporation ran their own email"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1414.877,"endTime":1419.989,"body":"servers and they were running a quote unquote"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1420.037,"endTime":1421.301,"body":"node on the email network."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1421.373,"endTime":1424.273,"body":"And over the decades, due to a variety of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1424.429,"endTime":1433.817,"body":"problems that came up mostly around spam, the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1424.429,"endTime":1433.817,"body":"bar to operate as a sovereign email node on"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1433.841,"endTime":1438.873,"body":"the email network got higher and higher and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1433.841,"endTime":1438.873,"body":"higher until we ended up with basically a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1438.889,"endTime":1442.897,"body":"dozen gatekeepers owning super majority of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1438.889,"endTime":1442.897,"body":"network."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1442.961,"endTime":1450.377,"body":"And so the point being, I find the path"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1442.961,"endTime":1450.377,"body":"forward of Bitcoin doing that same thing to be"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1450.481,"endTime":1455.943,"body":"fairly likely if we're not out here screaming"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1450.481,"endTime":1455.943,"body":"about it and trying to prevent it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1456.039,"endTime":1462.335,"body":"And maybe it's all for not, you know, maybe I"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1456.039,"endTime":1462.335,"body":"undertake all of this and yell about it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1462.415,"endTime":1468.335,"body":"And you know, a few decades from now, we'll"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1462.415,"endTime":1468.335,"body":"look back on my post and people will say,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1468.375,"endTime":1470.103,"body":"well, he was right, we should have listened to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1468.375,"endTime":1470.103,"body":"him."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1470.159,"endTime":1474.519,"body":"But, oh, well, hopefully,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1470.159,"endTime":1474.519,"body":"hopefully that's not the outcome."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1474.567,"endTime":1481.819,"body":"Hopefully we can Prevent the SMTP SMTPization"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1474.567,"endTime":1481.819,"body":"of Bitcoin becoming something that's much more"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1481.867,"endTime":1482.235,"body":"centralized."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1482.275,"endTime":1485.075,"body":"But I think you hit on a really good point"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1485.115,"endTime":1485.363,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1485.419,"endTime":1489.867,"body":"That many people, especially in this bull run,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1490.011,"endTime":1491.547,"body":"they're not actually using bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1491.651,"endTime":1494.435,"body":"And I run into this all the time of especially"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1494.475,"endTime":1497.915,"body":"when I'm talking with people about using the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1494.475,"endTime":1497.915,"body":"lightning network."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1498.075,"endTime":1500.611,"body":"I talk to people and they're like, lightning"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1498.075,"endTime":1500.611,"body":"is fantastic."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1500.643,"endTime":1501.891,"body":"It works perfectly for me."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1501.963,"endTime":1503.415,"body":"I never have any problems."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1504.255,"endTime":1510.271,"body":"Inevitably, when I get down to it, 99% of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1504.255,"endTime":1510.271,"body":"those users, I go, okay, what wallet are you"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1510.303,"endTime":1512.391,"body":"using?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1510.303,"endTime":1512.391,"body":"And they go, oh, I'm using wallet of Satoshi"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1512.423,"endTime":1514.559,"body":"and I'm paying another wallet of Satoshi user."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1514.687,"endTime":1516.567,"body":"Okay, yeah, you're not using lightning."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1516.711,"endTime":1520.943,"body":"You're sending a transaction by just changing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1516.711,"endTime":1520.943,"body":"a field at a database."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1521.079,"endTime":1522.423,"body":"This is totally centralized."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1522.519,"endTime":1524.495,"body":"It's not actually using the Lightning network."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1524.655,"endTime":1527.007,"body":"And it's kind of a growing theme."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1527.031,"endTime":1527.727,"body":"I've heard the same thing."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1527.751,"endTime":1533.273,"body":"When people talk about privacy, they'll say,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1527.751,"endTime":1533.273,"body":"I'll just use an exchange to make payments and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1533.289,"endTime":1537.969,"body":"I'll pay from Coinbase because then I know"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1533.289,"endTime":1537.969,"body":"that when I pay someone, they'll know that it"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1537.977,"endTime":1538.617,"body":"came from Coinbase."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1538.641,"endTime":1539.953,"body":"But they're not going to know who it came"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1539.969,"endTime":1540.097,"body":"from."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1540.121,"endTime":1541.281,"body":"They're not going to know the rest of my"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1541.313,"endTime":1541.601,"body":"funds."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1541.633,"endTime":1543.793,"body":"They won't have any visibility into what I do."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1543.969,"endTime":1550.993,"body":"And I see this as a growing quote unquote"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1543.969,"endTime":1550.993,"body":"solution that people see is I'll just use"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1551.049,"endTime":1552.209,"body":"centralized providers."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1552.257,"endTime":1555.387,"body":"And I think even when we get into this kind of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1555.411,"endTime":1560.435,"body":"this promise that I was made by many of the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1555.411,"endTime":1560.435,"body":"loud voices in the space when I first got into"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1560.475,"endTime":1563.415,"body":"bitcoin was basically there were two things."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1563.795,"endTime":1567.131,"body":"We'll build everything we need in layers and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1567.203,"endTime":1573.355,"body":"anything that an altcoin, or I'm sure they use"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1567.203,"endTime":1573.355,"body":"the terminology shitcoin implements that's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1573.395,"endTime":1576.739,"body":"good, will bring it back into Bitcoin and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1573.395,"endTime":1576.739,"body":"we'll improve bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1576.787,"endTime":1577.995,"body":"And we won't need that altcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1578.035,"endTime":1580.443,"body":"It'll just test what we need, we'll build it"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1580.459,"endTime":1581.455,"body":"into bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1582.605,"endTime":1585.877,"body":"Unfortunately, neither of those things really"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1585.941,"endTime":1586.625,"body":"happened."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1587.005,"endTime":1588.813,"body":"None of the stuff from other chains has been"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1588.829,"endTime":1590.465,"body":"brought back into Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1590.765,"endTime":1592.741,"body":"And then scaling in layers has become"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1592.853,"endTime":1593.949,"body":"increasingly difficult."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1594.037,"endTime":1596.905,"body":"All there is really today is lightning."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1597.205,"endTime":1603.005,"body":"And lightning is a fascinating technology and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1597.205,"endTime":1603.005,"body":"can be very powerful, but has also not been"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1603.045,"endTime":1607.573,"body":"the self custodial success that I think it was"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1603.045,"endTime":1607.573,"body":"also initially pitched as we're actually"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1607.669,"endTime":1610.893,"body":"scaling lightning to individual users who"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1607.669,"endTime":1610.893,"body":"actually have their own channel and hold their"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1610.909,"endTime":1614.405,"body":"own keys has been, has been minimal."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1614.785,"endTime":1619.009,"body":"And those promises haven't played out."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1619.097,"endTime":1624.385,"body":"And if we ossify, those promises only become"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1619.097,"endTime":1624.385,"body":"harder and harder to happen."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1624.505,"endTime":1630.521,"body":"So yeah, it's just really interesting to see"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1624.505,"endTime":1630.521,"body":"that where even in the last, I feel like six"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1630.553,"endTime":1634.153,"body":"to 12 months, we've seen a shift in the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1630.553,"endTime":1634.153,"body":"lightning space where lightning's supposed to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1634.169,"endTime":1635.121,"body":"have solved these problems."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1635.193,"endTime":1636.721,"body":"Again, these are promises that were made to me"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1636.753,"endTime":1637.345,"body":"on social media."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1637.385,"endTime":1639.353,"body":"I'm not saying that it was actually feasible,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1639.489,"endTime":1642.345,"body":"but there were promises that were widely"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1639.489,"endTime":1642.345,"body":"talked about in the space when I got into"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1642.385,"endTime":1643.125,"body":"bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1643.555,"endTime":1646.451,"body":"And yet now we see many lightning wallet"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1646.483,"endTime":1649.947,"body":"providers shutting down because they're having"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1646.483,"endTime":1649.947,"body":"too many issues solving the problems of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1649.971,"endTime":1650.931,"body":"lightning for their users."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1651.003,"endTime":1654.259,"body":"We're seeing a shift in focus to custodial"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1654.307,"endTime":1658.803,"body":"solutions, whether they're full custodians"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1654.307,"endTime":1658.803,"body":"like in the traditional sense of wallet of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1658.819,"endTime":1663.939,"body":"satoshi, or they're custodians in the sense of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1658.819,"endTime":1663.939,"body":"an E cash mint, where people want privacy and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1663.947,"endTime":1666.819,"body":"they want a simple UX so they give up custody"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1663.947,"endTime":1666.819,"body":"to get that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1666.947,"endTime":1673.933,"body":"And it all hits on the point that you made"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1666.947,"endTime":1673.933,"body":"where people are not actually using bitcoin, I"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1673.949,"endTime":1679.301,"body":"would argue, because it's too hard to do so"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1673.949,"endTime":1679.301,"body":"for self custody in many scenarios and it's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1679.333,"endTime":1680.621,"body":"too hard to do so privately."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1680.693,"endTime":1682.013,"body":"So people are looking for alternative"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1682.069,"endTime":1682.485,"body":"solutions."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1682.565,"endTime":1685.205,"body":"And because we don't have good building blocks"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1685.245,"endTime":1688.981,"body":"to build out things that help with self"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1685.245,"endTime":1688.981,"body":"custody and things that help with privacy on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1689.013,"endTime":1692.905,"body":"Bitcoin, that path seems to be the one that's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1689.013,"endTime":1692.905,"body":"been chosen."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1694.365,"endTime":1698.421,"body":"I know I kind of got into a lot and fell down"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1694.365,"endTime":1698.421,"body":"a rabbit hole there, but any kind of thoughts"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1698.453,"endTime":1702.953,"body":"around that, like that scale in layers idea?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1698.453,"endTime":1702.953,"body":"I know I'll bring it back into a concise"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1703.009,"endTime":1703.225,"body":"question."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1703.265,"endTime":1705.257,"body":"So I know in your debate with Jimmy Song, one"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1705.281,"endTime":1710.705,"body":"thing that you brought up that really struck"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1705.281,"endTime":1710.705,"body":"me was you talked about if we don't make"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1710.745,"endTime":1716.057,"body":"changes to bitcoin that give more building"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1710.745,"endTime":1716.057,"body":"blocks to developers, the scale and layers"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1716.241,"endTime":1720.617,"body":"scenario becomes increasingly complex or even"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1716.241,"endTime":1720.617,"body":"impossible to be able to scale out and build"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1720.641,"endTime":1721.721,"body":"the things that we want."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1721.833,"endTime":1723.745,"body":"We're already seeing that with the limitations"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1723.825,"endTime":1730.315,"body":"that Ark has, with the limitations that Spark"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1723.825,"endTime":1730.315,"body":"has, with the ways that they're essentially"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1730.355,"endTime":1735.563,"body":"having to hack around, the lack of covenants,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1730.355,"endTime":1735.563,"body":"and we're already seeing that play out right"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1735.579,"endTime":1738.291,"body":"now, which is even earlier than I expected to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1735.579,"endTime":1738.291,"body":"see that play out."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1738.483,"endTime":1742.259,"body":"But could you maybe dive into a little bit"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1738.483,"endTime":1742.259,"body":"More of that idea of like, if we don't change"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1742.307,"endTime":1748.067,"body":"Bitcoin scaling in layers becomes increasingly"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1742.307,"endTime":1748.067,"body":"complex or centralizes or introduces custody,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":1748.131,"endTime":1749.003,"body":"et cetera."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1749.179,"endTime":1754.323,"body":"Yeah, I mean, pretty much all of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1749.179,"endTime":1754.323,"body":"these discussions come down to trade offs and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1754.379,"endTime":1761.177,"body":"a lot of it, especially if we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1754.379,"endTime":1761.177,"body":"how user adoption progresses, then often it's"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1761.201,"endTime":1763.985,"body":"a trade off between convenience and something"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1761.201,"endTime":1763.985,"body":"else."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1764.065,"endTime":1771.897,"body":"Convenience and privacy, convenience and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1764.065,"endTime":1771.897,"body":"security, convenience and complexity in"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1772.001,"endTime":1781.265,"body":"navigating a higher bar of knowledge required"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1772.001,"endTime":1781.265,"body":"in order to be able to operate sovereignly or"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1781.385,"endTime":1784.205,"body":"to actually use some of these protocols."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1785.205,"endTime":1787.781,"body":"So I would say over the past year, for"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1787.813,"endTime":1793.733,"body":"example, we have seen a lot more quote unquote"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1787.813,"endTime":1793.733,"body":"layer 2 bitcoin projects."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1793.869,"endTime":1801.805,"body":"But I think it's important to look at them and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1793.869,"endTime":1801.805,"body":"analyze them to see what are the trade offs"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1801.845,"endTime":1803.093,"body":"that are being made."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1803.229,"endTime":1808.325,"body":"And so you did comment on E Cash mints."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1808.445,"endTime":1814.743,"body":"The trade offs there being you can get really"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1808.445,"endTime":1814.743,"body":"strong privacy, but generally with rug pull"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1814.799,"endTime":1817.655,"body":"risk because you have a custodian running the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1814.799,"endTime":1817.655,"body":"mint."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1817.695,"endTime":1821.155,"body":"I think Fediment improves upon that somewhat."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1821.655,"endTime":1823.703,"body":"So what I'm seeing and like, one of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1823.719,"endTime":1828.767,"body":"reasons I keep talking about one of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1823.719,"endTime":1828.767,"body":"reasons we want better building blocks at the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1828.791,"endTime":1836.959,"body":"base layer is because if you're building a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1828.791,"endTime":1836.959,"body":"layer two right now, then most likely you're,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1837.047,"endTime":1845.865,"body":"you're either doing pegging into a custodian"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1837.047,"endTime":1845.865,"body":"or a federation, which is not great, or if you"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1845.905,"endTime":1852.105,"body":"want to make it more quote unquote"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1845.905,"endTime":1852.105,"body":"permissionless and censorship resistant,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1852.265,"endTime":1856.765,"body":"you're having to come up with some crazy game"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1852.265,"endTime":1856.765,"body":"theory."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1858.065,"endTime":1863.209,"body":"And one of my favorite examples, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1858.065,"endTime":1863.209,"body":"if you're familiar with the spider chain"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1863.337,"endTime":1868.865,"body":"concept by Botanics or Botanics."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1868.905,"endTime":1871.025,"body":"I'm not sure exactly how they pronounce it,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1871.065,"endTime":1879.377,"body":"but suffice to say that they've come up with"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1871.065,"endTime":1879.377,"body":"this idea of sort of rolling cycles of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1879.481,"endTime":1888.113,"body":"multisig wallets that kind of act as the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1879.481,"endTime":1888.113,"body":"pegging, staking layer in between the base"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1888.169,"endTime":1890.953,"body":"chain and the second layer that they are"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1888.169,"endTime":1890.953,"body":"building."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1891.049,"endTime":1896.193,"body":"And it's just, it's extremely complicated and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1891.049,"endTime":1896.193,"body":"it's hard to analyze the game theory."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1896.249,"endTime":1900.217,"body":"And this is one of the reasons why, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1896.249,"endTime":1900.217,"body":"there's a number of, you know, kind of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1900.281,"endTime":1904.169,"body":"economic and technical parameters that are"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1900.281,"endTime":1904.169,"body":"involved in all of this."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1904.217,"endTime":1906.265,"body":"And it's really hard to say what the optimal"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1904.217,"endTime":1906.265,"body":"ones are."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1906.305,"endTime":1911.841,"body":"And so that's going to probably a multi year"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1906.305,"endTime":1911.841,"body":"process of them going through multiple phases"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1911.913,"endTime":1916.805,"body":"to try to tease out how do we make this as"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1911.913,"endTime":1916.805,"body":"secure as possible."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1917.905,"endTime":1925.365,"body":"Or you know, if you look at bitvm, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1917.905,"endTime":1925.365,"body":"just, it's complicated and you're trying to do"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1926.435,"endTime":1934.499,"body":"even fairly simple logic in a more"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1926.435,"endTime":1934.499,"body":"permissionless manner has a lot of overhead."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1934.627,"endTime":1941.715,"body":"My favorite though was the one that just came"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1934.627,"endTime":1941.715,"body":"out a week or so ago, the covenants with hash"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1941.755,"endTime":1942.695,"body":"collisions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1944.075,"endTime":1945.915,"body":"The short version is, yeah, we can do"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1945.955,"endTime":1947.331,"body":"covenants on bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1947.443,"endTime":1949.763,"body":"The only caveat is you have to burn tens of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1949.779,"endTime":1955.979,"body":"millions of dollars worth of electricity doing"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1949.779,"endTime":1955.979,"body":"proof of work in order to find some hash"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1956.027,"endTime":1956.895,"body":"collisions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1957.705,"endTime":1962.321,"body":"And so look, that's really cool."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1962.393,"endTime":1969.033,"body":"Like you totally nerded out on this idea and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1962.393,"endTime":1969.033,"body":"you proved that something is technically"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1969.129,"endTime":1969.577,"body":"possible."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1969.681,"endTime":1972.761,"body":"But I don't care what's technically possible"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1972.833,"endTime":1977.857,"body":"if it's impractical and feasible, to the point"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1972.833,"endTime":1977.857,"body":"that I don't think that it's actually going to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1977.881,"endTime":1979.233,"body":"get much adoption."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1979.289,"endTime":1982.825,"body":"Like we have to find the right path forward"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1982.945,"endTime":1992.545,"body":"where the technical improvements and whatever"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1982.945,"endTime":1992.545,"body":"we're building can actually be used."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1992.665,"endTime":2000.737,"body":"Otherwise we're just kind of sitting around"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":1992.665,"endTime":2000.737,"body":"mentally masturbating, basically saying, oh,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2000.761,"endTime":2003.993,"body":"look at this really cool idea I came up with"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2000.761,"endTime":2003.993,"body":"that nobody's ever going to use."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2004.049,"endTime":2008.881,"body":"So if we actually want to progress the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2004.049,"endTime":2008.881,"body":"ecosystem forward, we have to find the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2008.913,"endTime":2009.863,"body":"practical stuff."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2010.009,"endTime":2013.827,"body":"And so the way that I look at it, and I think"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2013.851,"endTime":2022.571,"body":"it was actually Adam Back who used this term a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2013.851,"endTime":2022.571,"body":"number of years ago, but he said, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2022.603,"endTime":2027.055,"body":"look at the Bitcoin base layer as a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2022.603,"endTime":2027.055,"body":"cryptographic accumulator."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2027.395,"endTime":2032.187,"body":"And so I think that that makes a lot of sense"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2027.395,"endTime":2032.187,"body":"in the context of second layers, especially if"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2032.211,"endTime":2039.715,"body":"we're talking about the, the low level"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2032.211,"endTime":2039.715,"body":"functions and operations that will be most"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2039.795,"endTime":2045.875,"body":"useful in order to make building"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2039.795,"endTime":2045.875,"body":"permissionless second layers easier for"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2045.915,"endTime":2046.499,"body":"people."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2046.667,"endTime":2053.363,"body":"And basically that is if there is some set of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2053.419,"endTime":2063.443,"body":"operations that is either impossible right now"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2053.419,"endTime":2063.443,"body":"or requires you to do just a ton of gymnastics"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2063.539,"endTime":2065.175,"body":"in order to recreate."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2066.184,"endTime":2068.744,"body":"But you can distill that down into like one"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2068.784,"endTime":2071.084,"body":"opcode on the bitcoin network."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2071.664,"endTime":2073.624,"body":"That's where you have potential orders of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2073.664,"endTime":2083.044,"body":"magnitude of improvement of efficiency and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2073.664,"endTime":2083.044,"body":"developer friendliness that can then boost,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2083.984,"endTime":2087.736,"body":"accelerate the future development of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2083.984,"endTime":2087.736,"body":"entire ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2087.84,"endTime":2094.627,"body":"That's how I think we should be looking at"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2087.84,"endTime":2094.627,"body":"improvements to Bitcoin is if it can greatly"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2094.691,"endTime":2101.931,"body":"simplify the burden that we're currently"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2094.691,"endTime":2101.931,"body":"putting on Layer two developers, then it's"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2101.963,"endTime":2104.011,"body":"something that we should be interested in."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2104.083,"endTime":2109.091,"body":"And so I wasn't able to go to the recent"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2109.163,"endTime":2114.315,"body":"conference in Boston OP next, but it looked"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2109.163,"endTime":2114.315,"body":"like there was a lot of good discussions"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2114.395,"endTime":2115.015,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2115.595,"endTime":2119.567,"body":"And one thing that I saw happening from some"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2119.591,"endTime":2125.991,"body":"of the social media discussion was a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2119.591,"endTime":2125.991,"body":"those layer twos, they're already building"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2126.063,"endTime":2135.215,"body":"stuff, but they've done the analysis and they"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2126.063,"endTime":2135.215,"body":"can show in many cases, if we had this one"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2135.255,"endTime":2141.743,"body":"opcode, it would greatly improve X, Y and Z"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2135.255,"endTime":2141.743,"body":"aspects of our second layer."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2141.919,"endTime":2150.523,"body":"And so that's why I'm in favor of things like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2141.919,"endTime":2150.523,"body":"opcat and RE enabling some of the old opcodes"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2150.599,"endTime":2151.603,"body":"on Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2151.739,"endTime":2154.347,"body":"And I think that it's, it's possible to do"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2154.371,"endTime":2155.067,"body":"that safely."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2155.131,"endTime":2160.387,"body":"We don't need to be afraid of, you know, edge"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2160.451,"endTime":2164.655,"body":"cases if, if we build a proper safety"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2160.451,"endTime":2164.655,"body":"framework around it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2165.275,"endTime":2166.771,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I definitely"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2165.275,"endTime":2166.771,"body":"agree."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2166.803,"endTime":2172.171,"body":"And that, that part about like doing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2166.803,"endTime":2172.171,"body":"gymnastics essentially to build out these"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2172.203,"endTime":2176.567,"body":"second layers is, is wild to see what they"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2172.203,"endTime":2176.567,"body":"could look like."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2176.731,"endTime":2178.495,"body":"Especially like ARC is all the rage these"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2176.731,"endTime":2178.495,"body":"days."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2178.535,"endTime":2180.095,"body":"Lots of people talking about it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2180.255,"endTime":2183.855,"body":"Look, looking at the user experience that we"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2183.895,"endTime":2188.855,"body":"could have with simple covenants and arc,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2183.895,"endTime":2188.855,"body":"which is essentially enabling people to use"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2188.895,"endTime":2190.327,"body":"lightning in an easier way."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2190.391,"endTime":2193.495,"body":"So like it is expanding lightning, allowing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2193.535,"endTime":2196.355,"body":"things like channel factories, has a lot of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2193.535,"endTime":2196.355,"body":"interesting use cases."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2196.695,"endTime":2202.343,"body":"Comparing that to the user experience of what"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2196.695,"endTime":2202.343,"body":"we will have with Covenantless Ark is wild"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2202.479,"endTime":2208.143,"body":"because instead of being able to just use one"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2202.479,"endTime":2208.143,"body":"or maybe two opcodes to commit to transactions"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2208.199,"endTime":2211.727,"body":"only looking a certain way in the future,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2208.199,"endTime":2211.727,"body":"which is necessary for the ARC protocol to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2211.751,"endTime":2216.111,"body":"function smoothly, you have to do these"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2211.751,"endTime":2216.111,"body":"massive pre signed Bitcoin transaction"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2216.223,"endTime":2221.599,"body":"collaborative things between all of the users"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2216.223,"endTime":2221.599,"body":"and around and the ARC operator."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2221.647,"endTime":2227.127,"body":"And it gets crazy compared to what it could"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2221.647,"endTime":2227.127,"body":"be, like you said, with relatively simple"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2227.231,"endTime":2230.555,"body":"changes to the base layer, something like"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2227.231,"endTime":2230.555,"body":"opcat, something like opctv."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2231.165,"endTime":2236.901,"body":"And you can't assume that just because you can"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2231.165,"endTime":2236.901,"body":"do something means that it will gain adoption."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2236.973,"endTime":2241.773,"body":"And the harder the user experience hurdle is"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2236.973,"endTime":2241.773,"body":"to get over, the less likely it is to actually"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2241.829,"endTime":2242.613,"body":"see use."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2242.749,"endTime":2244.981,"body":"And the best case in these layer twos is"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2245.013,"endTime":2249.725,"body":"generally that the user experience will be"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2245.013,"endTime":2249.725,"body":"drastically worse than it could be with simple"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2249.765,"endTime":2251.101,"body":"changes to Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2251.293,"endTime":2253.733,"body":"But in many of these examples, they actually"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2253.789,"endTime":2257.341,"body":"lose the trustless nature that we come to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2253.789,"endTime":2257.341,"body":"accept with the base layer."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2257.413,"endTime":2262.045,"body":"Like normally our barrier of entry is I want"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2257.413,"endTime":2262.045,"body":"to be able to get funds out no matter what."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2262.205,"endTime":2265.925,"body":"And there are generally unilateral exits and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2262.205,"endTime":2265.925,"body":"things like ARK and Spark."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2266.085,"endTime":2270.277,"body":"But a lot of the things like anything,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2266.085,"endTime":2270.277,"body":"basically anything using bitvm for a bridge is"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2270.301,"endTime":2271.109,"body":"not trustless."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2271.237,"endTime":2274.181,"body":"You need one operator to one operator or a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2274.213,"endTime":2282.301,"body":"threshold of operators to be good or to be"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2274.213,"endTime":2282.301,"body":"apathetic for funds to not be lost or stolen."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2282.453,"endTime":2288.535,"body":"And you lose that trustlessness because you"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2282.453,"endTime":2288.535,"body":"don't have ways to build layer twos that have"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2288.575,"endTime":2289.591,"body":"those trustless bridges."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2289.663,"endTime":2292.359,"body":"And yeah, it gets really weird because it"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2292.367,"endTime":2295.343,"body":"looks like we're like trying to scale in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2292.367,"endTime":2295.343,"body":"layers right now when we don't actually have"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2295.359,"endTime":2301.903,"body":"the building blocks to do it in a way that's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2295.359,"endTime":2301.903,"body":"approachable from a user's perspective, or"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2302.079,"endTime":2304.927,"body":"trustless or extremely trust minimized."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2305.111,"endTime":2309.399,"body":"Yeah, I mean it's also"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2305.111,"endTime":2309.399,"body":"ridiculous because we did three different"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2309.447,"endTime":2312.705,"body":"forks to get Lightning Network enabled."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2313.685,"endTime":2315.917,"body":"There are some, I've seen some ossifiers say,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2315.941,"endTime":2318.261,"body":"well we could have done lightning network"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2315.941,"endTime":2318.261,"body":"without those things."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2318.333,"endTime":2321.765,"body":"And like yes, you're technically correct and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2318.333,"endTime":2321.765,"body":"it would have sucked even more."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2321.885,"endTime":2324.465,"body":"Like the game theory would have been even"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2321.885,"endTime":2324.465,"body":"worse."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2324.805,"endTime":2329.865,"body":"You wouldn't have been able to have like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2324.805,"endTime":2329.865,"body":"infinitely long lived channels and so long so"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2330.205,"endTime":2331.229,"body":"on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2331.317,"endTime":2333.773,"body":"And so once again, this is all about trade"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2333.829,"endTime":2334.505,"body":"offs."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2335.165,"endTime":2338.703,"body":"I did have, someone was, was asking me"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2338.799,"endTime":2346.655,"body":"recently how we should be thinking about"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2338.799,"endTime":2346.655,"body":"making protocol changes going forward because"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2346.815,"endTime":2351.839,"body":"they felt like that something shifted where it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2346.815,"endTime":2351.839,"body":"used to be."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2352.007,"endTime":2358.111,"body":"Oh, we have this great idea for a future of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2352.007,"endTime":2358.111,"body":"things that we could build on top of it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2358.143,"endTime":2364.023,"body":"And that's how we ended up saying okay, we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2358.143,"endTime":2364.023,"body":"should add these lock time opcodes and we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2364.039,"endTime":2370.483,"body":"should fix transaction malleability so that we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2364.039,"endTime":2370.483,"body":"can do Lightning network channels and get all"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2370.499,"endTime":2371.655,"body":"of those benefits."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2372.115,"endTime":2376.707,"body":"And it feels like I think a lot of people are"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2376.731,"endTime":2383.019,"body":"pushing back against the idea of us just"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2376.731,"endTime":2383.019,"body":"enabling more building blocks without"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2383.187,"endTime":2387.187,"body":"specifically saying, okay, we're only doing it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2383.187,"endTime":2387.187,"body":"for this one use case."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2387.331,"endTime":2390.931,"body":"They're afraid that there's so many use cases"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2387.331,"endTime":2390.931,"body":"out there."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2390.963,"endTime":2394.067,"body":"Some of them might be bad, some of them might"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2390.963,"endTime":2394.067,"body":"be immoral."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2394.131,"endTime":2405.945,"body":"Somebody might get scammed because somebody"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2394.131,"endTime":2405.945,"body":"builds Ponzi scheme or builds some sort of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2407.085,"endTime":2408.345,"body":"pump and dump."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2409.205,"endTime":2411.509,"body":"Call it nft, Project, Token, Project,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2411.557,"endTime":2412.225,"body":"whatever."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2412.725,"endTime":2418.077,"body":"This is kind of tangential, but I've seen what"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2418.101,"endTime":2425.311,"body":"you might call the Bitcoin puritans or"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2418.101,"endTime":2425.311,"body":"moralists overlapping a lot in the Bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2425.383,"endTime":2434.063,"body":"ossifier space of basically, you know, we, we,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2425.383,"endTime":2434.063,"body":"we basically want to gatekeep Bitcoin to only"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2434.119,"endTime":2437.591,"body":"be what we consider to be pure monetary"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2434.119,"endTime":2437.591,"body":"transactions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2437.663,"endTime":2442.375,"body":"And if you're using Bitcoin for anything"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2437.663,"endTime":2442.375,"body":"outside of what we deem to be appropriate,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2442.535,"endTime":2446.143,"body":"then you know, you're a shitcoiner and we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2442.535,"endTime":2446.143,"body":"don't want you on our network."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2446.279,"endTime":2450.785,"body":"And, and that has kind of seeped into the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2446.279,"endTime":2450.785,"body":"whole."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2451.285,"endTime":2455.861,"body":"How do we improve Bitcoin space to be greatly"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2451.285,"endTime":2455.861,"body":"afraid of?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2455.893,"endTime":2462.565,"body":"Well, if you can't prove that this change"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2455.893,"endTime":2462.565,"body":"won't be used in a way that I disagree with,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2462.605,"endTime":2466.385,"body":"then I'll never agree to run it on my node."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2468.805,"endTime":2472.661,"body":"I don't know, I don't even really want to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2472.693,"endTime":2475.117,"body":"engage with those type of people in argument."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2475.181,"endTime":2478.405,"body":"And I'm hopeful that they're just a tiny vocal"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2478.525,"endTime":2481.151,"body":"minority, but you know, it is."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2481.223,"endTime":2485.199,"body":"It is a fundamental conflicting perspective."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2485.327,"endTime":2490.327,"body":"And I think how people see bitcoin, many"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2485.327,"endTime":2490.327,"body":"people see Bitcoin in many different ways."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2490.511,"endTime":2496.135,"body":"And I've always been quite open about the fact"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2490.511,"endTime":2496.135,"body":"that, you know, I'm a technologist and I see"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2496.175,"endTime":2506.879,"body":"Bitcoin as a database and, you know, there's a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2496.175,"endTime":2506.879,"body":"protocol around how you buy space in that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2506.927,"endTime":2509.373,"body":"database and make updates to it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2509.559,"endTime":2514.769,"body":"And I'm kind of a hardcore free market"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2514.857,"endTime":2526.005,"body":"maximalist that if someone finds a use case"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2514.857,"endTime":2526.005,"body":"for block space that fits within the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2526.585,"endTime":2532.665,"body":"constraints of the protocol and they're"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2526.585,"endTime":2532.665,"body":"willing to pay market rate for it, then"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2532.705,"endTime":2536.511,"body":"they're not a spammer, they're just a consumer"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2532.705,"endTime":2536.511,"body":"of block space."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2536.673,"endTime":2542.363,"body":"And the permissionless nature of the protocol"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2536.673,"endTime":2542.363,"body":"is such that you don't get to gatekeep them."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2542.419,"endTime":2546.415,"body":"The only gatekeeping that happens is from an"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2542.419,"endTime":2546.415,"body":"economic perspective."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2547.235,"endTime":2548.987,"body":"Yep, they pay a fee."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2549.171,"endTime":2550.563,"body":"That's the core spam filter."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2550.619,"endTime":2552.235,"body":"Mempool policies aren't going to do it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2552.275,"endTime":2554.339,"body":"You're not going to work around the game"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2554.387,"endTime":2557.695,"body":"theory of privately passing a transaction to a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2554.387,"endTime":2557.695,"body":"miner."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2558.835,"endTime":2560.627,"body":"That's a whole nother can of worms, I feel"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2558.835,"endTime":2560.627,"body":"like."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2560.651,"endTime":2565.579,"body":"But it is tied in because like you mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2560.651,"endTime":2565.579,"body":"a lot of the pushback that I see as well is"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2565.627,"endTime":2568.925,"body":"basically, well, we don't know what this could"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2565.627,"endTime":2568.925,"body":"cause."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2569.305,"endTime":2572.233,"body":"Yeah, it's the unknown unknown"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2569.305,"endTime":2572.233,"body":"argument."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2572.329,"endTime":2574.125,"body":"And that's one of."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2577.145,"endTime":2579.209,"body":"I don't think it came up specifically in my"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2579.257,"endTime":2580.017,"body":"debate with Jimmy."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2580.041,"endTime":2582.725,"body":"He was smart enough not to go there because"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2584.065,"endTime":2589.513,"body":"ultimately, and I put this in my article that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2584.065,"endTime":2589.513,"body":"I published later, the unknown unknowns"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2589.609,"endTime":2596.033,"body":"argument actually cancels each other out"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2589.609,"endTime":2596.033,"body":"because there are always unknown unknowns."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2596.169,"endTime":2602.561,"body":"And so the ossifiers often say any change that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2596.169,"endTime":2602.561,"body":"you make has unknown unknowns."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2602.673,"endTime":2609.641,"body":"But what they're unwilling to admit from what"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2602.673,"endTime":2609.641,"body":"I've seen because it's not convenient, is that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2609.753,"endTime":2613.065,"body":"not making changes also has unknown unknowns."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2613.225,"endTime":2617.737,"body":"And trying to quantify that one is more than"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2617.761,"endTime":2619.627,"body":"the other, I think is."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2619.801,"endTime":2622.159,"body":"It's naive and it goes."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2622.247,"endTime":2624.235,"body":"It's actually ahistorical."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2625.535,"endTime":2627.399,"body":"Just look at what happened to email, for"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2627.447,"endTime":2628.031,"body":"example."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2628.143,"endTime":2630.871,"body":"Not changing the email protocol had unknown"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2630.943,"endTime":2637.775,"body":"unknowns that were unforeseeable because what"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2630.943,"endTime":2637.775,"body":"happened was the rest of the world changed as"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2637.895,"endTime":2639.735,"body":"the protocol hit mass adoption."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2639.815,"endTime":2642.903,"body":"A lot of new problems came along and they had"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2642.919,"endTime":2644.023,"body":"to get solved."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2644.199,"endTime":2648.517,"body":"And one of the only people who tried to solve"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2648.661,"endTime":2652.669,"body":"the spam problem at the SMTP layer was Adam"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2648.661,"endTime":2652.669,"body":"Beck."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2652.797,"endTime":2655.545,"body":"But guess what?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2652.797,"endTime":2655.545,"body":"He got ignored."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2656.165,"endTime":2664.145,"body":"So I wonder if I'm going to end up being the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2656.165,"endTime":2664.145,"body":"atom back of the bitcoin protocol in regard to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2664.445,"endTime":2668.301,"body":"this particular issue, I certainly hope not."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2668.373,"endTime":2672.307,"body":"But point being, I expect, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2672.331,"endTime":2676.043,"body":"Bitcoin ossifies, the world will continue"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2672.331,"endTime":2676.043,"body":"changing."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2676.099,"endTime":2680.715,"body":"There will be more problems and those"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2676.099,"endTime":2680.715,"body":"solutions are going to get haphazardly bolted"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2680.755,"endTime":2687.019,"body":"on, generally in a centralized manner, and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2680.755,"endTime":2687.019,"body":"we're just going to end up with more"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2687.067,"endTime":2687.975,"body":"gatekeepers."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2688.835,"endTime":2694.931,"body":"Yeah, and I think too there,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2688.835,"endTime":2694.931,"body":"there are known problems that need to be"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2694.963,"endTime":2695.575,"body":"solved."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2696.035,"endTime":2696.827,"body":"I would say."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2696.891,"endTime":2700.667,"body":"I think Jimmy used the terminology of imminent"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2696.891,"endTime":2700.667,"body":"unnecessary as his barrier."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2700.811,"endTime":2704.011,"body":"I would say the lack of privacy is imminent"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2700.811,"endTime":2704.011,"body":"and necessary."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2704.083,"endTime":2707.827,"body":"We're seeing people targeted based on the on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2704.083,"endTime":2707.827,"body":"chain activity that they had."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2708.011,"endTime":2714.139,"body":"Someone is now serving a sentence in jail"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2708.011,"endTime":2714.139,"body":"because one transaction that Chainalysis says"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2714.307,"endTime":2721.323,"body":"was his was used to buy a domain for a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2714.307,"endTime":2721.323,"body":"centralized mixer, which was a whole nother"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2721.379,"endTime":2724.295,"body":"topic that there were centralized mixers"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2721.379,"endTime":2724.295,"body":"because privacy was poor."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2724.675,"endTime":2729.119,"body":"But he is said to have done that because there"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2724.675,"endTime":2729.119,"body":"was no privacy in between that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2729.307,"endTime":2733.839,"body":"What seems to have happened, just as a side"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2729.307,"endTime":2733.839,"body":"note, is that he traded Bitcoin peer to peer,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2733.887,"endTime":2734.607,"body":"frequently."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2734.751,"endTime":2736.975,"body":"And it's very, very likely that at a bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2737.015,"endTime":2741.111,"body":"conference he bought bitcoin from the operator"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2737.015,"endTime":2741.111,"body":"of bitcoin fog, and then had that link"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2741.183,"endTime":2745.767,"body":"directly to the funds that that bitcoin fog"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2741.183,"endTime":2745.767,"body":"operator then used or sorry, he sold Bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2745.791,"endTime":2749.447,"body":"to that bitcoin fog operator, Bitcoin fog"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2745.791,"endTime":2749.447,"body":"operator, used those to purchase what he"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2749.471,"endTime":2752.583,"body":"needed and the lack of privacy landed him in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2749.471,"endTime":2752.583,"body":"jail."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2752.759,"endTime":2756.175,"body":"I would say that that's pretty imminent and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2752.759,"endTime":2756.175,"body":"necessary that the average person has access"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2756.215,"endTime":2761.213,"body":"to privacy to protect them from what at least"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2756.215,"endTime":2761.213,"body":"over the last four years has been a clear"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2761.269,"endTime":2764.645,"body":"attack against Bitcoin and against privacy and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2761.269,"endTime":2764.645,"body":"cryptocurrencies."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2764.805,"endTime":2765.901,"body":"Just like scaling."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2766.013,"endTime":2766.573,"body":"Yes, maybe."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2766.589,"endTime":2771.437,"body":"The fee market right now is ridiculously low,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2766.589,"endTime":2771.437,"body":"which is potentially a problem on its own."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2771.461,"endTime":2775.253,"body":"As you mentioned earlier, that we're hitting a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2771.461,"endTime":2775.253,"body":"bull run and no one's using the chain, which"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2775.269,"endTime":2780.637,"body":"is an interesting combination that has, as far"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2775.269,"endTime":2780.637,"body":"as I know, never happened before in the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2780.661,"endTime":2781.785,"body":"history of bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2782.125,"endTime":2786.907,"body":"Yeah. And so actually I had a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2782.125,"endTime":2786.907,"body":"presentation in Lugano."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2786.931,"endTime":2790.255,"body":"I don't know if you saw my block space"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2786.931,"endTime":2790.255,"body":"economics presentation."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2791.075,"endTime":2792.335,"body":"Not yet, sadly."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2793.355,"endTime":2798.619,"body":"Yeah. And so this is another"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2793.355,"endTime":2798.619,"body":"controversial topic that I'm sure will get me"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2798.667,"endTime":2800.099,"body":"canceled by some people."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2800.227,"endTime":2804.027,"body":"But I believe another one of the very long"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2804.091,"endTime":2810.747,"body":"term problems that we should be thinking about"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2804.091,"endTime":2810.747,"body":"with Bitcoin is block space, or call it the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2810.771,"endTime":2811.787,"body":"block size debate."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2811.851,"endTime":2815.365,"body":"But I think that the block size debate of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2816.065,"endTime":2823.289,"body":"2015-2017 era was one thing, and I think that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2816.065,"endTime":2823.289,"body":"the block size debate of the future is going"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2823.297,"endTime":2825.045,"body":"to be A very different thing."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2825.585,"endTime":2830.065,"body":"We've already decided on how we're"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2830.105,"endTime":2835.625,"body":"prioritizing low cost of on chain transaction"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2830.105,"endTime":2835.625,"body":"versus low cost of auditing the system."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2835.785,"endTime":2836.873,"body":"That's already decided."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2836.929,"endTime":2838.681,"body":"I don't expect that to change."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2838.873,"endTime":2847.693,"body":"But what I do think will eventually become an"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2838.873,"endTime":2847.693,"body":"issue will be fees, you know, sustainable"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2847.789,"endTime":2853.709,"body":"thermodynamic security and cost of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2847.789,"endTime":2853.709,"body":"sovereignty."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2853.837,"endTime":2858.957,"body":"Basically this is, you know, some, some people"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2853.837,"endTime":2858.957,"body":"have said, well, should everyone be able to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2858.981,"endTime":2861.725,"body":"own their own utxo?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2858.981,"endTime":2861.725,"body":"You know, that's, that's kind of its own"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2861.765,"endTime":2862.453,"body":"debate."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2862.629,"endTime":2867.869,"body":"But my, my point from my presentation that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2867.917,"endTime":2874.413,"body":"it'll probably be published in the next few"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2867.917,"endTime":2874.413,"body":"months was that I think that we should desire"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2874.509,"endTime":2881.869,"body":"to have an adjustable block size that takes"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2874.509,"endTime":2881.869,"body":"into account all the different stakeholders in"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2881.877,"endTime":2888.789,"body":"the ecosystem and prioritizes safety, of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2881.877,"endTime":2888.789,"body":"course, prioritizes node operators not getting"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2888.837,"endTime":2894.657,"body":"priced out from auditing the system, but also"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2888.837,"endTime":2894.657,"body":"prioritizes the economics of block space."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2894.821,"endTime":2899.105,"body":"And so, you know, I would argue that right now"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2894.821,"endTime":2899.105,"body":"the block size should actually probably be"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2899.145,"endTime":2905.005,"body":"smaller than it currently is if we had an"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2899.145,"endTime":2905.005,"body":"appropriate adjustable block size algorithm."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2905.905,"endTime":2908.937,"body":"Yeah, it's a, it's a very"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2905.905,"endTime":2908.937,"body":"interesting aside, but this is something that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2908.961,"endTime":2914.025,"body":"I've really liked about the game theory of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2908.961,"endTime":2914.025,"body":"Monero specifically, and it may not be the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2914.065,"endTime":2915.905,"body":"exact approach that you're mentioning."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2915.945,"endTime":2917.865,"body":"And I definitely want to see that presentation"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2917.905,"endTime":2918.345,"body":"outside."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2918.465,"endTime":2922.963,"body":"So I did mention Monero in my"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2918.465,"endTime":2922.963,"body":"presentation."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2923.019,"endTime":2927.931,"body":"I went through every bitcoin BIP related to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2923.019,"endTime":2927.931,"body":"block size and I explained why they all"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2928.003,"endTime":2928.735,"body":"sucked."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2929.515,"endTime":2931.315,"body":"And really the only one that I said didn't"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2931.355,"endTime":2936.243,"body":"suck was Peter Woola's one that was based upon"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2931.355,"endTime":2936.243,"body":"network bandwidth growth."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2936.379,"endTime":2941.139,"body":"I felt like that was an appropriate safety"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2936.379,"endTime":2941.139,"body":"based one, but it still didn't take into"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2941.187,"endTime":2942.935,"body":"account economics."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2943.555,"endTime":2945.947,"body":"And then I went out and I looked at all of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2945.971,"endTime":2952.063,"body":"other systems, at least all of the other major"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2945.971,"endTime":2952.063,"body":"cryptocurrencies that have adjustable block"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2952.119,"endTime":2955.455,"body":"sizes and tried to understand the game theory"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2952.119,"endTime":2955.455,"body":"around them."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2955.495,"endTime":2958.783,"body":"And the only one that I thought didn't"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2955.495,"endTime":2958.783,"body":"completely suck was actually Monero."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2958.919,"endTime":2963.623,"body":"And the main reason for that, as I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2958.919,"endTime":2963.623,"body":"you're well aware, is because although it does"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2963.679,"endTime":2968.991,"body":"give miners the ability to increase the block"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2963.679,"endTime":2968.991,"body":"size, they can only do that if they also"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2969.063,"endTime":2969.943,"body":"increase the fees."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2969.999,"endTime":2971.983,"body":"Right, so there's actually that economic"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":2972.079,"endTime":2972.991,"body":"component."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2973.183,"endTime":2975.767,"body":"Yeah, yeah, that's one of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2973.183,"endTime":2975.767,"body":"the beautiful things, is if they choose to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2975.791,"endTime":2980.313,"body":"just arbitrarily increase the block size, they"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2975.791,"endTime":2980.313,"body":"sacrifice subsidy and so they have to make up"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2980.329,"endTime":2984.937,"body":"for written fees or the game theory of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2980.329,"endTime":2984.937,"body":"financial incentives will break down for them"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2984.961,"endTime":2987.441,"body":"and they'll be burning money to be able to do"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2984.961,"endTime":2987.441,"body":"so."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2987.473,"endTime":2991.097,"body":"It's a really fascinating system and one not"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2987.473,"endTime":2991.097,"body":"meant for just permanently increasing the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2991.121,"endTime":2996.601,"body":"block size, but handling short term amounts of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2991.121,"endTime":2996.601,"body":"increased on chain activity and then shrinking"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2996.633,"endTime":2999.817,"body":"blocks back down to a size that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2996.633,"endTime":2999.817,"body":"reasonable."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":2999.921,"endTime":3001.017,"body":"It's a really interesting one."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3001.041,"endTime":3003.153,"body":"I don't want to get into the details, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3003.169,"endTime":3006.217,"body":"glad that you, you looked into it and covered"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3003.169,"endTime":3006.217,"body":"it a bit too because it's one that's been"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3006.241,"endTime":3009.955,"body":"working very, very well in practice for a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3006.241,"endTime":3009.955,"body":"decade now."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3011.095,"endTime":3017.415,"body":"So circling back to this topic of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3011.095,"endTime":3017.415,"body":"ossification, I think maybe the harder thing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3017.455,"endTime":3018.535,"body":"to actually discuss."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3018.695,"endTime":3022.583,"body":"I love the theory, but I'm really curious on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3022.639,"endTime":3028.415,"body":"what you think for what are the real steps we"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3022.639,"endTime":3028.415,"body":"take towards helping bitcoin to continue to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3028.455,"endTime":3031.391,"body":"evolve?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3028.455,"endTime":3031.391,"body":"I know you talked about block size in that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3031.423,"endTime":3031.839,"body":"presentation."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3031.887,"endTime":3034.015,"body":"We've talked a lot about covenants and other"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3034.055,"endTime":3035.631,"body":"potential changes like opcat."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3035.743,"endTime":3037.823,"body":"You briefly mentioned the great script"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3037.879,"endTime":3042.793,"body":"restoration, which we'll maybe get to a little"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3037.879,"endTime":3042.793,"body":"bit more later with the listener question."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3042.889,"endTime":3048.057,"body":"But what are the actual things that we can do?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3042.889,"endTime":3048.057,"body":"It feels like to me every day it's getting"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3048.081,"endTime":3053.609,"body":"murkier as to how would I go about, hey, I"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3048.081,"endTime":3053.609,"body":"have this perfect privacy bitcoin improvement"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3053.657,"endTime":3054.485,"body":"proposal."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3055.065,"endTime":3058.045,"body":"How do I get that done?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3058.345,"endTime":3062.777,"body":"Or is that something that's worth pursuing?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3058.345,"endTime":3062.777,"body":"So maybe just your thoughts on what are the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3062.801,"endTime":3067.417,"body":"actual steps that we can take as people who"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3062.801,"endTime":3067.417,"body":"want to see changes continue to happen in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3067.441,"endTime":3068.205,"body":"bitcoin?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3068.875,"endTime":3076.403,"body":"Yeah, well, part of the problem"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3068.875,"endTime":3076.403,"body":"is that there is no well defined process."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3076.579,"endTime":3083.411,"body":"And I would say there cannot be a well defined"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3076.579,"endTime":3083.411,"body":"process because ultimately what does it all"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3083.443,"endTime":3086.495,"body":"come down to?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3083.443,"endTime":3086.495,"body":"Rough consensus and running code."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3086.875,"endTime":3089.187,"body":"It's very hard to quantify."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3089.291,"endTime":3092.255,"body":"That's why it is rough consensus."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3093.035,"endTime":3102.439,"body":"But I think one potential problem is that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3093.035,"endTime":3102.439,"body":"there just hasn't been a improvement proposal"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3102.527,"endTime":3110.663,"body":"that has gained significant momentum and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3102.527,"endTime":3110.663,"body":"collaboration from people."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3110.759,"endTime":3115.195,"body":"It seems like it's always been like a few"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3110.759,"endTime":3115.195,"body":"people over here, a few people over there."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3116.415,"endTime":3124.167,"body":"And really if you want to build consensus,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3116.415,"endTime":3124.167,"body":"it's kind of its own bootstrapping and network"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3124.231,"endTime":3125.515,"body":"effect problem."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3127.015,"endTime":3131.287,"body":"You, you have to actually get boots on the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3131.311,"endTime":3135.759,"body":"ground and start talking to a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3131.311,"endTime":3135.759,"body":"and get them interested and get them, you"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3135.767,"endTime":3143.767,"body":"know, devoting time into contributing to that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3135.767,"endTime":3143.767,"body":"idea and voicing support for it and trying to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3143.791,"endTime":3144.755,"body":"move it forward."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3145.175,"endTime":3148.991,"body":"And it seems like Jeremy Rubin was the, the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3149.023,"endTime":3151.127,"body":"last person who really tried to do that."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3151.231,"endTime":3153.837,"body":"And unfortunately it rubbed some people the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3153.861,"endTime":3154.705,"body":"wrong way."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3155.405,"endTime":3158.965,"body":"It is kind of a delicate process and it may"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3159.045,"endTime":3165.705,"body":"even be the case that you should not champion"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3159.045,"endTime":3165.705,"body":"your own proposal."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3166.285,"endTime":3169.905,"body":"I think some people may see that as a red flag"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3166.285,"endTime":3169.905,"body":"in and of itself."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3170.405,"endTime":3175.797,"body":"So maybe if there's something that you really"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3170.405,"endTime":3175.797,"body":"want, it's better for you to find other"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3175.861,"endTime":3178.065,"body":"reputable people in the space to champion."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3179.235,"endTime":3181.067,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I definitely can"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3179.235,"endTime":3181.067,"body":"see that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3181.091,"endTime":3185.363,"body":"And I feel like that's been part of the reason"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3181.091,"endTime":3185.363,"body":"why the Covenants discussion has been much"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3185.379,"endTime":3185.979,"body":"more pressing."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3186.027,"endTime":3190.115,"body":"I mean, like what Jeremy proposed CTV in like"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3190.155,"endTime":3197.163,"body":"2020, maybe 2021, but I think 2020 and only"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3190.155,"endTime":3197.163,"body":"really now have we circled back to serious"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3197.219,"endTime":3198.923,"body":"discussion around the concept of Covenants."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3198.979,"endTime":3200.275,"body":"Not necessarily just op ctv."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3200.315,"endTime":3206.511,"body":"There's a lot of other proposals in OPCAT now"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3200.315,"endTime":3206.511,"body":"and great script restoration, but it feels"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3206.543,"endTime":3210.199,"body":"like that's kind of happened because a lot"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3206.543,"endTime":3210.199,"body":"more people in this space, not just the devs"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3210.247,"endTime":3214.151,"body":"working on the proposals, are actually willing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3210.247,"endTime":3214.151,"body":"to talk about this stuff publicly and have"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3214.183,"endTime":3215.151,"body":"conversations around it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3215.183,"endTime":3216.503,"body":"I think that's definitely a key point."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3216.559,"endTime":3217.195,"body":"It's."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3217.575,"endTime":3220.687,"body":"Yeah, rough consensus is very, very rough and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3220.751,"endTime":3224.167,"body":"it does require almost like a. It's more a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3220.751,"endTime":3224.167,"body":"social aspect."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3224.231,"endTime":3227.791,"body":"Like obviously the technical proposal has to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3224.231,"endTime":3227.791,"body":"be sound for there to be any chance."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3227.863,"endTime":3236.381,"body":"Obviously that's how it should be, but it ends"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3227.863,"endTime":3236.381,"body":"up being more of a social effort than it is a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3236.413,"endTime":3237.181,"body":"technical one."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3237.253,"endTime":3239.093,"body":"Once you have a good technical proposal and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3239.109,"endTime":3241.637,"body":"that hurdle is just so high these days, it"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3239.109,"endTime":3241.637,"body":"feels like."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3241.701,"endTime":3243.917,"body":"Yeah, and here's a good example."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3244.101,"endTime":3251.293,"body":"So there was a panel at Lugano about opcat or"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3251.309,"endTime":3260.927,"body":"at least it was about Covenants and Layer Twos"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3251.309,"endTime":3260.927,"body":"and there was like five or six people on the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3260.951,"endTime":3263.875,"body":"stage, all very well known bitcoin folks."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3264.175,"endTime":3270.055,"body":"And they all said that they liked opcat."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3270.215,"endTime":3275.975,"body":"However, one of them said, I'm against it for"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3270.215,"endTime":3275.975,"body":"social reasons rather than technical reasons,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3276.095,"endTime":3283.289,"body":"simply because they're ****** off with like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3276.095,"endTime":3283.289,"body":"taproot wizards and UDI and you know, him"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3283.337,"endTime":3285.521,"body":"going off and triggering people on social"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3283.337,"endTime":3285.521,"body":"media."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3285.593,"endTime":3292.137,"body":"And I'm like you, this is like the perfect"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3285.593,"endTime":3292.137,"body":"example of this process going wrong is you're"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3292.161,"endTime":3300.609,"body":"letting your emotions get in the way of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3292.161,"endTime":3300.609,"body":"sort of cold, stoic logic of looking at these"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3300.657,"endTime":3304.685,"body":"things and how they're going to potentially"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3300.657,"endTime":3304.685,"body":"improve the network."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3305.305,"endTime":3310.171,"body":"Yeah, choosing based on if"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3305.305,"endTime":3310.171,"body":"people you like support something and if"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3310.203,"endTime":3316.251,"body":"people you don't like don't support something"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3310.203,"endTime":3316.251,"body":"is a very interesting bar for what changes"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3316.283,"endTime":3317.275,"body":"should happen to bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3317.315,"endTime":3318.315,"body":"But I have seen a lot of that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3318.355,"endTime":3319.403,"body":"That's not a one off case."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3319.459,"endTime":3320.851,"body":"Like there's a lot of people say, like, as"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3320.883,"endTime":3323.055,"body":"this person supports it, I won't support it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3323.395,"endTime":3331.235,"body":"I also think that an appropriate"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3323.395,"endTime":3331.235,"body":"description of bitcoin consensus is it's like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3331.275,"endTime":3338.427,"body":"a non Newtonian fluid and this is where some"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3331.275,"endTime":3338.427,"body":"of the delicate social nature comes in is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3338.451,"endTime":3350.059,"body":"that, you know, if there's, there's some"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3338.451,"endTime":3350.059,"body":"unquantifiable velocity of force at which if"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3350.107,"endTime":3354.995,"body":"you push too hard then it, it turns into a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3350.107,"endTime":3354.995,"body":"brick wall."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3355.115,"endTime":3361.275,"body":"And so you just need to ease into it slowly"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3355.115,"endTime":3361.275,"body":"and steadily, you know, slowly building"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3361.395,"endTime":3371.589,"body":"consensus and getting your champions together"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3361.395,"endTime":3371.589,"body":"to show that your proposal does not have any"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3371.757,"endTime":3374.145,"body":"substantial objections."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3375.405,"endTime":3378.357,"body":"Yeah, definitely seems like"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3375.405,"endTime":3378.357,"body":"the way, and I think that might be one of the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3378.381,"endTime":3382.861,"body":"reasons why Covenants have gotten further than"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3378.381,"endTime":3382.861,"body":"I expect, is that it has been kind of a low"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3382.893,"endTime":3387.461,"body":"and slow conversation over the past few years"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3382.893,"endTime":3387.461,"body":"that's just continued and slowly grown and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3387.493,"endTime":3388.145,"body":"grown."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3389.205,"endTime":3392.285,"body":"I would love to hear if there's any specific"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3393.225,"endTime":3398.241,"body":"proposal or just general change or improvement"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3393.225,"endTime":3398.241,"body":"that you're particularly excited for or"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3398.273,"endTime":3399.925,"body":"particularly would want to see happen."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3400.705,"endTime":3402.225,"body":"Obviously, I know maybe there's some things"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3402.265,"endTime":3406.285,"body":"that just can never happen that you would"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3402.265,"endTime":3406.285,"body":"love, but maybe on the practical side"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3406.705,"endTime":3412.325,"body":"something that you think needs to happen in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3406.705,"endTime":3412.325,"body":"Bitcoin that you'd like to see adopted."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3413.665,"endTime":3418.985,"body":"Yeah, there are many things I"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3413.665,"endTime":3418.985,"body":"think my highest priority at the moment would"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3419.025,"endTime":3424.385,"body":"be basic ability blocks that will help improve"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3419.025,"endTime":3424.385,"body":"development of Layer two networks."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3424.425,"endTime":3426.905,"body":"And so opcat seems to be one of those."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3426.985,"endTime":3429.529,"body":"There's a few other opcodes out there that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3429.617,"endTime":3433.009,"body":"Layer two developers seem to be in favor of."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3433.137,"endTime":3435.393,"body":"And you know, whether that happens as a one"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3435.449,"endTime":3442.005,"body":"off or perhaps through the great script"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3435.449,"endTime":3442.005,"body":"restoration, then I'm kind of ambivalent."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3443.025,"endTime":3451.521,"body":"I do like greatscript restoration because I"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3443.025,"endTime":3451.521,"body":"feel like it would be better for us to just do"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3451.553,"endTime":3457.689,"body":"a one and done, you know, just get it over"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3451.553,"endTime":3457.689,"body":"with rather than fighting about sort of one"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3457.737,"endTime":3459.665,"body":"off opcodes here and there."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3459.825,"endTime":3462.961,"body":"If we can have, you know, one clean sweep of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3462.993,"endTime":3464.405,"body":"that, that would be great."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3465.625,"endTime":3471.339,"body":"Medium term, like over the next 10 to 20"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3471.427,"endTime":3479.883,"body":"years, I think the quantum computing issue is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3471.427,"endTime":3479.883,"body":"going to potentially reach a critical point."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3480.059,"endTime":3486.939,"body":"I gave a presentation about that a month or so"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3480.059,"endTime":3486.939,"body":"ago and it's, you know, it's sufficiently far"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3486.987,"endTime":3489.739,"body":"away that I think people aren't concerned"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3486.987,"endTime":3489.739,"body":"about it."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3489.787,"endTime":3492.875,"body":"But also, as we know, it's very difficult to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3489.787,"endTime":3492.875,"body":"change Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3492.995,"endTime":3503.679,"body":"And this particular change I believe is going"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3492.995,"endTime":3503.679,"body":"to violate some principles of Bitcoin one way"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3503.687,"endTime":3504.591,"body":"or another."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3504.783,"endTime":3507.675,"body":"The point being that if we."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3510.375,"endTime":3510.687,"body":"We'Re."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3510.711,"endTime":3516.315,"body":"Basically going to have to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3510.711,"endTime":3516.315,"body":"decide how to deal with non quantum safe"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3516.615,"endTime":3524.431,"body":"bitcoin funds, bitcoin UTXOs at some point so"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3516.615,"endTime":3524.431,"body":"we can start the process of agreeing upon what"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3524.463,"endTime":3531.531,"body":"the best quantum safe cryptography is that we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3524.463,"endTime":3531.531,"body":"should implement in Bitcoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3531.683,"endTime":3537.323,"body":"But even once we do that and once we kick off"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3531.683,"endTime":3537.323,"body":"the migration process, that will take years"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3537.379,"endTime":3538.051,"body":"and years."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3538.163,"endTime":3543.055,"body":"I Think for people to actually migrate, and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3543.875,"endTime":3549.363,"body":"eventually not everyone is going to migrate,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3543.875,"endTime":3549.363,"body":"and at least part of that is due to lost"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3549.419,"endTime":3550.083,"body":"funds."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3550.219,"endTime":3551.923,"body":"And so then the real question is going to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3551.939,"endTime":3558.109,"body":"become, do we either sit on our hands and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3551.939,"endTime":3558.109,"body":"allow lost funds to be stolen by quantum"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3558.197,"endTime":3565.397,"body":"adversaries, or do we say at some point, okay,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3558.197,"endTime":3565.397,"body":"this has gone far enough and we're going to do"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3565.421,"endTime":3568.981,"body":"a soft fork to essentially make those funds"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3565.421,"endTime":3568.981,"body":"unspendable."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3569.173,"endTime":3575.101,"body":"So one way or another, that's going to violate"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3569.173,"endTime":3575.101,"body":"a principle of, basically the principle of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3575.173,"endTime":3576.705,"body":"your key is your coins."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3577.125,"endTime":3581.079,"body":"Either either those coins are going to get"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3581.127,"endTime":3588.847,"body":"stolen even though the adversary didn't"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3581.127,"endTime":3588.847,"body":"originally have the keys, or the keys will no"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3588.871,"endTime":3592.635,"body":"longer be useful if that owner still has them."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3593.295,"endTime":3596.399,"body":"Yeah, and like you said,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3593.295,"endTime":3596.399,"body":"that's something that has to happen so far"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3596.447,"endTime":3600.119,"body":"ahead of when quantum computers are actually"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3596.447,"endTime":3600.119,"body":"viable."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3600.207,"endTime":3604.493,"body":"So that's an interesting one that does need"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3600.207,"endTime":3604.493,"body":"conversation sooner rather than later."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3604.679,"endTime":3609.569,"body":"And so then even looking out"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3604.679,"endTime":3609.569,"body":"further beyond that is more of the block space"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3609.657,"endTime":3617.605,"body":"economic stuff of how are we going to deal"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3609.657,"endTime":3617.605,"body":"with the long term thermodynamic security."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3618.065,"endTime":3625.761,"body":"And the main reason why I think that's"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3618.065,"endTime":3625.761,"body":"important and so complicated is that there are"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3625.873,"endTime":3634.729,"body":"too many variables and in fact future unknown"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3625.873,"endTime":3634.729,"body":"unknowns of the supply and demand of block"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3634.777,"endTime":3635.365,"body":"space."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3635.825,"endTime":3638.465,"body":"And I think people might raise their eyebrows"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3638.505,"endTime":3643.045,"body":"and say, well, what do you mean there's"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3638.505,"endTime":3643.045,"body":"unknowns about the supply of block space?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3643.545,"endTime":3647.273,"body":"Well, that's where layer twos actually come"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3643.545,"endTime":3647.273,"body":"into play."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3647.369,"endTime":3655.265,"body":"And layer twos and centralized providers is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3647.369,"endTime":3655.265,"body":"effectively, if a lot of adoption happens"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3655.305,"endTime":3662.705,"body":"through centralized custodians or if certain"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3655.305,"endTime":3662.705,"body":"layer twos gain sufficient mass adoption,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3663.165,"endTime":3670.053,"body":"those things can actually effectively act like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3663.165,"endTime":3670.053,"body":"a block size increase from the economic"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3670.149,"endTime":3674.581,"body":"perspective, as they are offloading a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3670.149,"endTime":3674.581,"body":"demand from the base blockchain."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3674.733,"endTime":3678.285,"body":"So there's a lot of transactions that might"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3674.733,"endTime":3678.285,"body":"have originally happened on the base"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3678.325,"endTime":3680.597,"body":"blockchain that no longer happen."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3680.741,"endTime":3685.165,"body":"And so that can cause a drop in fees for"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3685.205,"endTime":3685.905,"body":"miners."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3686.525,"endTime":3689.385,"body":"And simply because we don't know in the long"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3689.425,"endTime":3694.193,"body":"term future what all of these different"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3689.425,"endTime":3694.193,"body":"variables of supply and demand are going to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3694.209,"endTime":3701.609,"body":"work out to I think that having a static block"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3694.209,"endTime":3701.609,"body":"size limit, whatever it is, like there is no"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3701.657,"endTime":3703.885,"body":"magic number, I think that is the right"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3701.657,"endTime":3703.885,"body":"number."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3705.585,"endTime":3709.345,"body":"One of the main reasons that a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3705.585,"endTime":3709.345,"body":"block size proposals back in the day were dumb"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3709.385,"endTime":3711.245,"body":"is that they were just magic numbers."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3712.265,"endTime":3718.507,"body":"And so I think in order to really fix this"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3718.611,"endTime":3725.483,"body":"aspect of the game theory of Bitcoin as an"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3718.611,"endTime":3725.483,"body":"ecosystem, that similar to how we have"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3725.539,"endTime":3731.019,"body":"difficulty adjustments right now for the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3725.539,"endTime":3731.019,"body":"miners, I think we need to have block space"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3731.107,"endTime":3737.067,"body":"adjustments that take into account all the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3731.107,"endTime":3737.067,"body":"different variables that can lead to a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3737.091,"endTime":3742.215,"body":"healthier, unhealthy environment for the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3737.091,"endTime":3742.215,"body":"economics of block space."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3743.765,"endTime":3745.653,"body":"Yeah, yeah, it's really"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3743.765,"endTime":3745.653,"body":"fascinating."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3745.789,"endTime":3749.381,"body":"I'm glad you pointed out things further down"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3745.789,"endTime":3749.381,"body":"the line as well, because I think I can get"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3749.413,"endTime":3756.909,"body":"kind of caught up in the current things, like"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3749.413,"endTime":3756.909,"body":"just looking at Covenant opcodes or something"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3756.957,"endTime":3761.245,"body":"like that and not thinking long term about"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3756.957,"endTime":3761.245,"body":"what would this actually look like for quantum"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3761.285,"endTime":3764.677,"body":"resistant crypto for changing block size,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3761.285,"endTime":3764.677,"body":"Something like that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3764.861,"endTime":3768.469,"body":"And I'm glad you pointed out that there's no"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3764.861,"endTime":3768.469,"body":"perfect block size."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3768.557,"endTime":3773.763,"body":"I think there's this weird assumption that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3768.557,"endTime":3773.763,"body":"either 4 megabytes is just perfect, like what"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3773.779,"endTime":3778.523,"body":"we've chosen is somehow perfect and we should"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3773.779,"endTime":3778.523,"body":"never change it, or that we know exactly what"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3778.539,"endTime":3779.531,"body":"the size should be like."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3779.563,"endTime":3781.467,"body":"Oh, we should have 1 megabyte block sizes or"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3781.491,"endTime":3781.699,"body":"something."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3781.747,"endTime":3784.531,"body":"And I'm not really sure how people can think"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3784.563,"endTime":3786.851,"body":"that they know exactly what the perfect block"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3784.563,"endTime":3786.851,"body":"size is."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3786.923,"endTime":3791.451,"body":"When we're talking, hopefully hundreds or"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3786.923,"endTime":3791.451,"body":"maybe even thousands of years in the future."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3791.603,"endTime":3793.779,"body":"There's no way to predict what it's going to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3791.603,"endTime":3793.779,"body":"look like."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3793.907,"endTime":3796.935,"body":"It requires a great degree of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3793.907,"endTime":3796.935,"body":"arrogance."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3797.915,"endTime":3809.507,"body":"And also I think that one of the reasons that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3797.915,"endTime":3809.507,"body":"we should desire an algorithm to adjust the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3809.691,"endTime":3817.235,"body":"block size or block space is that we want"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3809.691,"endTime":3817.235,"body":"really what I'm calling Goldie blocks."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3817.355,"endTime":3820.483,"body":"You know, you don't want small blocks or big"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3817.355,"endTime":3820.483,"body":"blocks, you want Goldie blocks."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3820.539,"endTime":3832.145,"body":"And what are Goldie blocks?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3820.539,"endTime":3832.145,"body":"I consider this to be block space that is set"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3833.285,"endTime":3839.465,"body":"sufficiently low enough that there is constant"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3833.285,"endTime":3839.465,"body":"fee pressure."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3839.805,"endTime":3843.345,"body":"You're not getting basically free, cheap"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3839.805,"endTime":3843.345,"body":"transactions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3843.885,"endTime":3852.509,"body":"And the reason why you want this constant"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3843.885,"endTime":3852.509,"body":"backlog with a robust fee market is twofold"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3852.557,"endTime":3853.789,"body":"and possibly more."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3853.957,"endTime":3856.533,"body":"One, of course we need to pay the miners and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3856.549,"endTime":3861.157,"body":"we need to make this sustainable in perpetuity"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3856.549,"endTime":3861.157,"body":"as the subsidy continues halving."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3861.341,"endTime":3866.677,"body":"And two, it actually incentivizes people to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3861.341,"endTime":3866.677,"body":"use block space efficiently."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3866.741,"endTime":3873.545,"body":"So if your blocks are too big, nobody is going"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3866.741,"endTime":3873.545,"body":"to even bother building layer two solutions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3874.285,"endTime":3877.067,"body":"At least not, not for, like, cheap"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3874.285,"endTime":3877.067,"body":"transactions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3877.131,"endTime":3881.175,"body":"Maybe if there's other functionality and."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3883.555,"endTime":3883.819,"body":"If."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3883.827,"endTime":3891.819,"body":"Your blocks are too small and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3883.827,"endTime":3891.819,"body":"the fees are too high, then even that can"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3891.867,"endTime":3900.547,"body":"cause problems where I foresee a potential"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3891.867,"endTime":3900.547,"body":"future where even the layer twos have issues."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3900.611,"endTime":3904.975,"body":"So layer twos need to be able to settle back"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3900.611,"endTime":3904.975,"body":"onto the main chain."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3905.305,"endTime":3910.121,"body":"And let's envision a future where we do get"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3905.305,"endTime":3910.121,"body":"enough protocol improvements that there is a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3910.153,"endTime":3914.865,"body":"really robust and vibrant, thriving Layer two"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3910.153,"endTime":3914.865,"body":"ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3914.985,"endTime":3917.445,"body":"But the blocks are still really, really tiny."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3918.825,"endTime":3923.073,"body":"I could easily see game theory start to break"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3923.129,"endTime":3928.057,"body":"down if the layer twos are the primary"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3923.129,"endTime":3928.057,"body":"consumers of block space."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3928.121,"endTime":3930.645,"body":"And they're all competing with each other over"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3928.121,"endTime":3930.645,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3932.005,"endTime":3937.425,"body":"It is once again, it's a type of pure free"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3932.005,"endTime":3937.425,"body":"market capitalism."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3938.565,"endTime":3948.181,"body":"But that could be problematic and in fact"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3938.565,"endTime":3948.181,"body":"ultimately harm the thriving layer two"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3948.253,"endTime":3949.197,"body":"ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3949.341,"endTime":3952.757,"body":"And we're thinking really out in the future"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3952.821,"endTime":3957.101,"body":"right now there's so many variables we're"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3952.821,"endTime":3957.101,"body":"probably not even imagining as very difficult"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3957.213,"endTime":3958.253,"body":"to even talk about."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3958.309,"endTime":3961.041,"body":"But I'm just trying to tease out some of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3961.073,"endTime":3964.005,"body":"potential future problems."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3964.305,"endTime":3967.929,"body":"Because if we agree that natural ossification"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3967.977,"endTime":3975.073,"body":"is a thing, then I think that if we wait so"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3967.977,"endTime":3975.073,"body":"long until these problems actually become"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3975.169,"endTime":3981.457,"body":"problems, then we may not actually be able to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3975.169,"endTime":3981.457,"body":"do anything to adjust course and be able to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":3981.601,"endTime":3983.645,"body":"resolve them at the base layer."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3984.475,"endTime":3985.299,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3985.347,"endTime":3986.851,"body":"I think like quantum computers are a great"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3986.883,"endTime":3987.491,"body":"example of that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3987.523,"endTime":3989.299,"body":"Because if they're actually imminent, it's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3989.347,"endTime":3990.507,"body":"probably too late."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3990.691,"endTime":3992.731,"body":"It's too late for most people's funds."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3992.763,"endTime":3996.415,"body":"Maybe you can save some, but that process is"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3992.763,"endTime":3996.415,"body":"going to take a long time."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3996.835,"endTime":4000.499,"body":"So I've got one last question for you and then"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":3996.835,"endTime":4000.499,"body":"I have a bunch of really good listener"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4000.547,"endTime":4004.667,"body":"questions that people dropped on X when I let"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4000.547,"endTime":4004.667,"body":"them know that we were going to be talking"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4004.691,"endTime":4005.427,"body":"about this."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4005.571,"endTime":4007.403,"body":"So last question that I have, we've touched on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4007.419,"endTime":4011.639,"body":"it a little bit throughout, but not in a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4007.419,"endTime":4011.639,"body":"really concerted way."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4011.827,"endTime":4013.215,"body":"So I just wanted to circle back."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4013.295,"endTime":4015.439,"body":"We touched on self custody a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4015.487,"endTime":4017.595,"body":"or like building better layer twos."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4018.735,"endTime":4021.703,"body":"But when we talk about privacy, what's your"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4021.759,"endTime":4026.559,"body":"view around how that fits in?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4021.759,"endTime":4026.559,"body":"Like, can Bitcoin continue to be called"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4026.607,"endTime":4030.063,"body":"Freedom Money if privacy is not approachable"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4026.607,"endTime":4030.063,"body":"for the average person?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4030.199,"endTime":4035.463,"body":"Is that something that you view as essential"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4030.199,"endTime":4035.463,"body":"as improving self custody or ensuring that we"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4035.479,"endTime":4041.175,"body":"can build proper trustless layer twos?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4035.479,"endTime":4041.175,"body":"Where do you see that fitting into this"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4041.215,"endTime":4041.995,"body":"conversation?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4046.055,"endTime":4051.919,"body":"I mean, I think it's probably a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4046.055,"endTime":4051.919,"body":"lost cause to get what you might call strong"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4052.007,"endTime":4061.447,"body":"privacy built into Bitcoin based layer and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4052.007,"endTime":4061.447,"body":"that it's a better path forward for developers"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4061.511,"endTime":4066.535,"body":"to build strong privacy onto second layers"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4061.511,"endTime":4066.535,"body":"because you have so much more leeway and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4066.575,"endTime":4068.455,"body":"flexibility in how you build them."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4068.535,"endTime":4070.747,"body":"And so that kind of goes back to, well, we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4070.771,"endTime":4075.815,"body":"need to actually make it easier for people to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4070.771,"endTime":4075.815,"body":"build second layers so that they can do that."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4076.675,"endTime":4086.835,"body":"And you know, it could get pretty interesting"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4076.675,"endTime":4086.835,"body":"right now, even if you, if you give up on the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4086.915,"endTime":4095.595,"body":"idea of Sovereign Lightning Network as a like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4086.915,"endTime":4095.595,"body":"mainstream adoption thing for people to be"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4095.635,"endTime":4104.04,"body":"using, I do think Lightning Network could"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4095.635,"endTime":4104.04,"body":"easily have a place in the future of a vibrant"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4104.152,"endTime":4109.032,"body":"layer two ecosystem of essentially acting as"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4104.152,"endTime":4109.032,"body":"bridges between the different layer twos."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4109.088,"endTime":4114.912,"body":"And so that could get pretty interesting from"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4109.088,"endTime":4114.912,"body":"a privacy perspective if you could hop between"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4115.048,"endTime":4120.364,"body":"any number of layer twos trustlessly,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4115.048,"endTime":4120.364,"body":"instantaneously."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4121.464,"endTime":4126.181,"body":"Would that hopefully be able to greatly"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4121.464,"endTime":4126.181,"body":"improve privacy?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4126.293,"endTime":4131.717,"body":"Of course, as we're well aware, the state of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4126.293,"endTime":4131.717,"body":"privacy on the lightning network continues to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4131.741,"endTime":4138.037,"body":"be explored and when weaknesses continue to be"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4131.741,"endTime":4138.037,"body":"found and we'll need to continue hardening it"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4138.061,"endTime":4139.345,"body":"from that perspective."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4140.245,"endTime":4141.221,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4141.293,"endTime":4143.597,"body":"So to summarize, basically, like we need to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4143.701,"endTime":4149.501,"body":"enable better building blocks so that the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4143.701,"endTime":4149.501,"body":"scalar layers thing actually can become true."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4149.573,"endTime":4150.781,"body":"It's kind of the crux of it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4150.813,"endTime":4153.425,"body":"And then we can do better privacy there."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4154.025,"endTime":4159.969,"body":"So maybe this is controversial,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4154.025,"endTime":4159.969,"body":"but one of the reasons why I don't really tell"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4160.017,"endTime":4164.841,"body":"people to go use mixers is because I'm not"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4160.017,"endTime":4164.841,"body":"convinced that that's going to be a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4164.873,"endTime":4166.561,"body":"sustainable long term solution."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4166.673,"endTime":4171.889,"body":"I expect that, well, if the current course"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4171.977,"endTime":4180.041,"body":"continues, that most people are going to get"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4171.977,"endTime":4180.041,"body":"priced out of using mixers on chain unless we"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4180.073,"endTime":4184.965,"body":"get other technical improvements that actually"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4180.073,"endTime":4184.965,"body":"economically incentivize people to do mix."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4185.105,"endTime":4190.425,"body":"Uh, I don't, I don't see that being"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4185.105,"endTime":4190.425,"body":"sustainable long term."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4191.045,"endTime":4191.997,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4192.061,"endTime":4193.885,"body":"I would, I would agree that they're, they're"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4193.925,"endTime":4199.465,"body":"really a short term band aid and if things"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4193.925,"endTime":4199.465,"body":"happen to the fee market as people expect,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4199.765,"endTime":4201.733,"body":"it's not going to be a long term solution."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4201.909,"endTime":4205.829,"body":"And there's the double issue of they have"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4205.957,"endTime":4211.459,"body":"traditionally either required very poor user"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4205.957,"endTime":4211.459,"body":"experience or a centralized entity to help"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4211.507,"endTime":4212.219,"body":"coordination."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4212.387,"endTime":4213.859,"body":"That's not necessarily a technical"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4213.907,"endTime":4215.947,"body":"requirement, but that's how it's played out so"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4213.907,"endTime":4215.947,"body":"far."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4216.051,"endTime":4220.415,"body":"And that makes them much more vulnerable than"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4216.051,"endTime":4220.415,"body":"a more decentralized layer too."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4222.155,"endTime":4226.827,"body":"Yeah, man, a lot of different things going on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4222.155,"endTime":4226.827,"body":"here, but I feel like I got a lot more clarity"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4226.971,"endTime":4228.059,"body":"out of our conversation."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4228.107,"endTime":4230.499,"body":"So thank you for our time diving through my"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4230.547,"endTime":4235.691,"body":"questions, but if you're down, I've got a few"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4230.547,"endTime":4235.691,"body":"listener questions that we can walk through"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4235.723,"endTime":4238.735,"body":"and maybe just kind of do a rapid fire Q and"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4235.723,"endTime":4238.735,"body":"A. Sure."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4239.555,"endTime":4239.947,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4239.971,"endTime":4240.615,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4240.915,"endTime":4244.835,"body":"You did touch on the great script restoration"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4240.915,"endTime":4244.835,"body":"already a bit."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4244.955,"endTime":4249.051,"body":"Was there anything you wanted to add?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4244.955,"endTime":4249.051,"body":"Bob Summerwill said, I would love to hear your"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4249.083,"endTime":4251.467,"body":"thoughts on the great script restoration as a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4249.083,"endTime":4251.467,"body":"potential."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4251.611,"endTime":4252.451,"body":"Let's fix it all."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4252.483,"endTime":4254.219,"body":"I think you already pretty much answered that,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4254.267,"endTime":4255.955,"body":"saying that that's one of the reasons you like"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4254.267,"endTime":4255.955,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4256.035,"endTime":4259.695,"body":"So you could kind of do it on one go, but"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4256.035,"endTime":4259.695,"body":"anything else you want to add there?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4260.235,"endTime":4262.195,"body":"Yeah, so doing it all in one go."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4262.235,"endTime":4264.459,"body":"Also, the nice thing is that Rusty is really"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4264.507,"endTime":4265.899,"body":"focusing on safety here."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4265.947,"endTime":4266.227,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4266.291,"endTime":4273.687,"body":"And so one of the major aspect and changes to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4266.291,"endTime":4273.687,"body":"the great script restoration is essentially"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4273.831,"endTime":4280.879,"body":"you're coming up with a new way of kind of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4273.831,"endTime":4280.879,"body":"counting the Computational resources required"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4280.967,"endTime":4282.595,"body":"to execute a script."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4283.735,"endTime":4286.671,"body":"We've had a few kind of half assed ways of"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4286.703,"endTime":4291.631,"body":"doing that over the years by like counting"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4286.703,"endTime":4291.631,"body":"signature operations and stuff, but that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4291.663,"endTime":4296.839,"body":"hasn't been able to capture all of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4291.663,"endTime":4296.839,"body":"potential complexity of validating"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4296.927,"endTime":4297.835,"body":"transactions."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4298.235,"endTime":4301.115,"body":"So, you know, Rusty seems to be making good"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4301.155,"endTime":4306.251,"body":"progress on that and I think he actually just"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4301.155,"endTime":4306.251,"body":"published a draft biped for it in the past"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4306.323,"endTime":4306.627,"body":"week."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4306.691,"endTime":4310.555,"body":"So, you know, it still could be a year or"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4310.595,"endTime":4315.135,"body":"several years away from happening, but I'll be"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4310.595,"endTime":4315.135,"body":"keeping an eye on it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4315.675,"endTime":4316.843,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4316.939,"endTime":4318.667,"body":"I'll be seeing if you, if you choose to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4318.691,"endTime":4323.651,"body":"champion it, it'll be interesting see if we"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4318.691,"endTime":4323.651,"body":"can get a get a collective together to push"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4323.683,"endTime":4324.347,"body":"through something like that."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4324.371,"endTime":4326.579,"body":"It would be really, really enjoyable to have a"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4326.587,"endTime":4331.049,"body":"lot more building blocks, especially now that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4326.587,"endTime":4331.049,"body":"I'm getting more on the Bitcoin dev side on,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4331.097,"endTime":4332.033,"body":"on Chain and Lightning."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4332.089,"endTime":4333.937,"body":"It's been interesting trying to see what it's"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4333.961,"endTime":4338.805,"body":"like to actually build more advanced solutions"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4333.961,"endTime":4338.805,"body":"around it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4339.585,"endTime":4346.153,"body":"The other main focus of really a couple"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4339.585,"endTime":4346.153,"body":"questions was basically what's your view on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4346.249,"endTime":4350.553,"body":"getting better privacy at the base layer?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4346.249,"endTime":4350.553,"body":"I know we just touched on this a little bit,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4350.649,"endTime":4352.625,"body":"but I want to shift the focus a little bit."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4352.745,"endTime":4356.329,"body":"So like Kayabanurv, who's a dev in the Monero"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4356.417,"endTime":4359.997,"body":"community, he asked, what's your stance on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4356.417,"endTime":4359.997,"body":"privacy bips?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4360.061,"endTime":4364.005,"body":"If opt in privacy could be added today"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4360.061,"endTime":4364.005,"body":"magically for the computational and bandwidth"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4364.045,"endTime":4367.557,"body":"cost of a Schnorr signature, would you add it"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4364.045,"endTime":4367.557,"body":"or do you best."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4367.621,"endTime":4369.893,"body":"Do you see privacy as best done by L2"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4367.621,"endTime":4369.893,"body":"Solutions?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4369.949,"endTime":4375.925,"body":"I guess getting more to the theoretical if you"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4369.949,"endTime":4375.925,"body":"could have that, would you be behind it versus"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4375.965,"endTime":4379.061,"body":"the pragmatic, which is probably that you"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4375.965,"endTime":4379.061,"body":"wouldn't be able to get something like that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4379.093,"endTime":4380.105,"body":"through consensus."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4382.205,"endTime":4388.781,"body":"I mean even if you could, almost"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4382.205,"endTime":4388.781,"body":"every privacy solution is once again beholden"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4388.813,"endTime":4392.769,"body":"to sort of network effect problem, right?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4388.813,"endTime":4392.769,"body":"So like, you know, the great quote of, you"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4392.777,"endTime":4398.753,"body":"know, privacy only extends so far as the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4392.777,"endTime":4398.753,"body":"cooperation of one's peers from that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4398.809,"endTime":4399.553,"body":"perspective."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4399.649,"endTime":4403.409,"body":"I think in a practical perspective it might be"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4403.457,"endTime":4413.265,"body":"better and more sensible to have layer twos,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4403.457,"endTime":4413.265,"body":"you know, specific protocols that are for"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4413.345,"endTime":4417.145,"body":"privacy so that you get more people over"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4413.345,"endTime":4417.145,"body":"they're using them."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4417.185,"endTime":4423.593,"body":"So to get to give a kind of counter example, I"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4417.185,"endTime":4423.593,"body":"think that one of the best practical ways that"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4423.609,"endTime":4429.897,"body":"we could improve bitcoin privacy today without"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4423.609,"endTime":4429.897,"body":"protocol changes would be to get Everybody to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4429.921,"endTime":4431.085,"body":"use PayJoin."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4432.065,"endTime":4433.569,"body":"It's already a thing."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4433.697,"endTime":4439.185,"body":"All we have to do is get people to actually"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4433.697,"endTime":4439.185,"body":"implement that interactive protocol whenever"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4439.225,"endTime":4440.665,"body":"you're accepting payments."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4440.825,"endTime":4442.105,"body":"But I don't think it's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4442.145,"endTime":4448.525,"body":"And, you know, just asking people to do"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4442.145,"endTime":4448.525,"body":"anything seems to be too high of a burden."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4449.185,"endTime":4453.841,"body":"Yeah, the user experience"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4449.185,"endTime":4453.841,"body":"hurdle is definitely the tricky part of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4453.873,"endTime":4454.849,"body":"gaining adoption there."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4454.897,"endTime":4458.089,"body":"And it's best when you can get privacy on"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4458.137,"endTime":4461.369,"body":"accident just using something for the user"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4458.137,"endTime":4461.369,"body":"experience."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4461.457,"endTime":4466.633,"body":"I think that was one of the ideas behind how"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4461.457,"endTime":4466.633,"body":"lightning privacy would be helpful, is that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4466.649,"endTime":4470.441,"body":"people would use lightning for cheaper"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4466.649,"endTime":4470.441,"body":"transactions and they would necessarily get"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4470.473,"endTime":4473.445,"body":"better privacy because you're not publishing"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4470.473,"endTime":4473.445,"body":"every transaction on chain."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4474.085,"endTime":4476.421,"body":"And that is one of the good benefits there."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4476.493,"endTime":4477.853,"body":"The hard part is the user experience of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4477.869,"endTime":4484.381,"body":"lightning hasn't quite lived up to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4477.869,"endTime":4484.381,"body":"expectations, but I think that's definitely an"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4484.413,"endTime":4484.629,"body":"issue."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4484.677,"endTime":4486.461,"body":"There is the user experience getting there."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4486.493,"endTime":4489.661,"body":"I guess if you could do it in a perfect way"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4486.493,"endTime":4489.661,"body":"where the user experience was just the same as"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4489.693,"endTime":4493.613,"body":"making a standard transaction, you could"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4489.693,"endTime":4493.613,"body":"probably get much better, much better"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4493.669,"endTime":4494.341,"body":"adoption."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4494.453,"endTime":4497.625,"body":"But if we're still looking at needing to move"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4498.005,"endTime":4502.799,"body":"coffee transactions to a second layer, base"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4498.005,"endTime":4502.799,"body":"layer changes could help that bridge."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4502.847,"endTime":4505.431,"body":"Like especially when you're moving funds into"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4502.847,"endTime":4505.431,"body":"a layer two."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4505.463,"endTime":4509.215,"body":"That's one of the weak points right now of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4505.463,"endTime":4509.215,"body":"lightning is the on chain footprint is quite"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4509.255,"endTime":4512.151,"body":"detrimental unless you do things a very"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4509.255,"endTime":4512.151,"body":"specific way."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4512.303,"endTime":4517.743,"body":"So those on chain changes do help those layers"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4512.303,"endTime":4517.743,"body":"that get built on top have better privacy in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4517.759,"endTime":4520.915,"body":"the bridging in and bridging out or pegging in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4517.759,"endTime":4520.915,"body":"and pegging out scenario."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4521.455,"endTime":4523.795,"body":"But yeah, thanks for jumping on that one."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4526.145,"endTime":4528.525,"body":"Another one to get into."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4528.945,"endTime":4532.537,"body":"I think we already answered quite a few of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4528.945,"endTime":4532.537,"body":"these in just our conversations."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4532.641,"endTime":4537.369,"body":"But another one that's an interesting kind of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4532.641,"endTime":4537.369,"body":"thought experiment, and I think we'll probably"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4537.417,"endTime":4544.481,"body":"end on this one, is if you could rewrite"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4537.417,"endTime":4544.481,"body":"bitcoin today as a brand new protocol, what"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4544.513,"endTime":4547.681,"body":"would the core of it be?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4544.513,"endTime":4547.681,"body":"What are the core kind of differences that you"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4547.713,"endTime":4551.865,"body":"would have in a bitcoin that you think could"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4547.713,"endTime":4551.865,"body":"solve the problems that we've talked about"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4551.905,"endTime":4552.765,"body":"throughout today."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4557.305,"endTime":4559.473,"body":"It's a pretty general question, so just dive"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4559.489,"endTime":4559.641,"body":"in."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4559.673,"endTime":4561.385,"body":"Maybe if there's one or two specific things"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4561.425,"endTime":4565.889,"body":"that you would change if you had the ability"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4561.425,"endTime":4565.889,"body":"to kind of wave a wand and build bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4565.937,"endTime":4566.645,"body":"differently."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4571.025,"endTime":4575.873,"body":"Yeah, that's a tricky one."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4575.929,"endTime":4581.303,"body":"I mean, there are a number of bugs in bitcoin,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4581.359,"endTime":4582.515,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4581.359,"endTime":4582.515,"body":"There's this."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4584.015,"endTime":4588.991,"body":"There's this other project that's basically"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4584.015,"endTime":4588.991,"body":"the great consensus cleanup or something like"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4589.023,"endTime":4595.943,"body":"that, which are just a bunch of outstanding"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4589.023,"endTime":4595.943,"body":"edge cases and issues and actually like safety"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4596.119,"endTime":4604.087,"body":"issues, some of which are kind of related to"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4596.119,"endTime":4604.087,"body":"block size debate and ensuring that people"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4604.151,"endTime":4609.035,"body":"can't do sort of denial of service on nodes by"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4604.151,"endTime":4609.035,"body":"constructing weird transactions and stuff."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4613.545,"endTime":4621.609,"body":"Yeah, Bitcoin, the tricky Thing is, as I said"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4613.545,"endTime":4621.609,"body":"earlier, you really don't want to screw with"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4621.657,"endTime":4623.125,"body":"the game theory."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4623.545,"endTime":4627.873,"body":"And so I think I would go back to really what"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4627.889,"endTime":4632.505,"body":"we've already spent a lot of time talking"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4627.889,"endTime":4632.505,"body":"about, which is the one aspect of the Bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4632.545,"endTime":4636.865,"body":"game theory that I think needs improving is"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4632.545,"endTime":4636.865,"body":"this sort of idea around block space"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4636.985,"endTime":4637.801,"body":"economics."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4637.913,"endTime":4640.005,"body":"But that is a long term problem."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4641.575,"endTime":4649.435,"body":"I'm not really convinced that there's anything"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4641.575,"endTime":4649.435,"body":"at the protocol layer that would necessarily"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4650.015,"endTime":4655.599,"body":"be a 10x improvement for user experience and"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4650.015,"endTime":4655.599,"body":"adoption."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4655.767,"endTime":4662.687,"body":"I think most of the friction around that just"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4655.767,"endTime":4662.687,"body":"has to do with key management."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4662.791,"endTime":4669.593,"body":"And I don't have a fundamental solution for a"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4662.791,"endTime":4669.593,"body":"protocol change that would fix a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4669.609,"endTime":4670.925,"body":"key management issues."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4671.905,"endTime":4675.409,"body":"Yeah, that's one where it"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4671.905,"endTime":4675.409,"body":"just comes down to that initial barrier of are"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4675.417,"endTime":4678.937,"body":"you willing to take personal responsibility?"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4675.417,"endTime":4678.937,"body":"And that's always kind of going to be the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4678.961,"endTime":4680.009,"body":"barrier of entry here."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4680.057,"endTime":4681.953,"body":"We can minimize that and abstract it away as"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4681.969,"endTime":4688.177,"body":"much as possible, but if you can't keep"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4681.969,"endTime":4688.177,"body":"something secret, you can't use Bitcoin or"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4688.201,"endTime":4688.761,"body":"anything like it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4688.793,"endTime":4691.377,"body":"That'll always be kind of the lower bar that"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4691.401,"endTime":4694.565,"body":"people have to be willing to jump over to be"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4691.401,"endTime":4694.565,"body":"able to use these things."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4696.115,"endTime":4696.539,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4696.587,"endTime":4699.507,"body":"Well, I think that's all of the main questions"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4699.531,"endTime":4699.907,"body":"that I had."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4699.931,"endTime":4701.723,"body":"Like I said, I think we hit on the majority of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4701.739,"endTime":4703.371,"body":"these already in our discussions."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4703.523,"endTime":4705.859,"body":"So if you listeners asked a question and I"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4705.867,"endTime":4709.747,"body":"didn't cover it, let me know and I'll see if I"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4705.867,"endTime":4709.747,"body":"can get a text response or something from Lot."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4709.811,"endTime":4713.259,"body":"But I think we walked through the vast"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4709.811,"endTime":4713.259,"body":"majority of it."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4713.387,"endTime":4717.935,"body":"So any last thoughts or kind of closing things"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4713.387,"endTime":4717.935,"body":"you want to bring up, Jameson?"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4721.205,"endTime":4727.213,"body":"Well, in closing, basically the"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4721.205,"endTime":4727.213,"body":"same as in opening, which is the most"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4727.269,"endTime":4730.885,"body":"important thing that we can do is continue"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4727.269,"endTime":4730.885,"body":"talking about these issues."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4731.005,"endTime":4737.197,"body":"I think the most dangerous thing that we can"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4731.005,"endTime":4737.197,"body":"do is be complacent, rest upon our laurels,"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4737.341,"endTime":4739.145,"body":"declare victory."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4739.845,"endTime":4743.517,"body":"Because if we declare victory today, I can"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4743.541,"endTime":4748.065,"body":"assure you we will not retain a victorious"},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4743.541,"endTime":4748.065,"body":"position over the long term."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4748.985,"endTime":4750.325,"body":"Very, very well said."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4750.625,"endTime":4752.233,"body":"Well, thank you so much for jumping on."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4752.329,"endTime":4756.257,"body":"Glad you were willing to do this and glad we"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4752.329,"endTime":4756.257,"body":"got to talk through what I think is one of the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4756.281,"endTime":4759.185,"body":"most pressing topics in the Bitcoin space"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4756.281,"endTime":4759.185,"body":"right now."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4759.225,"endTime":4762.857,"body":"So hopefully this will help people better"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4759.225,"endTime":4762.857,"body":"understand a lot of the thought process behind"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4763.001,"endTime":4767.857,"body":"different views and better understand kind of"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4763.001,"endTime":4767.857,"body":"where we're coming from when we say that there"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4767.881,"endTime":4772.729,"body":"are some good ways that we can make changes to"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4767.881,"endTime":4772.729,"body":"Bitcoin to keep it a useful tool for freedom,"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4772.777,"endTime":4773.793,"body":"to keep it free to money."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4773.889,"endTime":4775.685,"body":"So thank you so much for your time, Jameson."},{"speaker":"Jameson Lopp","startTime":4776.025,"endTime":4777.245,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4785.215,"endTime":4788.335,"body":"Thanks for listening and I"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4785.215,"endTime":4788.335,"body":"hope you enjoyed this episode of Opt Out."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4788.455,"endTime":4791.175,"body":"If you did, please take a moment and subscribe"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4788.455,"endTime":4791.175,"body":"to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4791.255,"endTime":4795.395,"body":"Or if you're already subscribed, share it with"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4791.255,"endTime":4795.395,"body":"one friend or family member this week."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4795.695,"endTime":4800.007,"body":"As always, you can check out the link to the"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4795.695,"endTime":4800.007,"body":"guest's content and contact info, as well as"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4800.031,"endTime":4802.623,"body":"links to all of the tools we discussed in"},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4800.031,"endTime":4802.623,"body":"today's episode."},{"speaker":"Seth For Privacy","startTime":4802.759,"endTime":4804.415,"body":"Now get out there and Opt out this week."}]}