{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3.68,"endTime":5.576,"body":"Well, welcome onto the show, Carl."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":5.688,"endTime":7.24,"body":"It's so good to actually have you here."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":7.28,"endTime":12.088,"body":"I know we've crossed paths a few times before"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":7.28,"endTime":12.088,"body":"in the space, really, just online, so it's"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":12.104,"endTime":14.184,"body":"really cool to be able to see you."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":14.272,"endTime":16.66,"body":"Video to video, I guess we would call it."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":17.28,"endTime":21.4,"body":"Yeah. Chat a little bit more about what you've"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":17.28,"endTime":21.4,"body":"been up to because y'all had a very big"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":21.44,"endTime":25.368,"body":"release, I feel like, a couple months ago now,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":21.44,"endTime":25.368,"body":"so a lot to talk about today."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":25.424,"endTime":26.676,"body":"A lot to talk about today."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":26.848,"endTime":28.012,"body":"Yeah, no, 100%."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":28.116,"endTime":30.76,"body":"It's been super exciting times."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":31.06,"endTime":34.892,"body":"I think our official release was just last"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":31.06,"endTime":34.892,"body":"month."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":35.076,"endTime":41.468,"body":"To me, it seems like eons ago now, but it's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":35.076,"endTime":41.468,"body":"been really fun answering the user questions"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":41.484,"endTime":44.876,"body":"and helping people along and squashing the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":41.484,"endTime":44.876,"body":"bugs."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":45.068,"endTime":46.204,"body":"Yeah, yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":46.252,"endTime":48.236,"body":"It does feel like a lot more than a month ago"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":48.308,"endTime":51.884,"body":"because I think I jumped on and started using"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":48.308,"endTime":51.884,"body":"it the day you released, and it feels like a"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":51.892,"endTime":53.292,"body":"lot longer than a month."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":53.476,"endTime":58.412,"body":"Right, right, Yeah. I think you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":53.476,"endTime":58.412,"body":"were on the wait list and so that's why you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":58.436,"endTime":59.5,"body":"got the early preview."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":59.58,"endTime":61.804,"body":"Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":59.58,"endTime":61.804,"body":"about that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":61.972,"endTime":63.18,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":63.34,"endTime":63.676,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":63.708,"endTime":64.7,"body":"I'm excited to talk through this."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":64.74,"endTime":66.7,"body":"Obscura, I think, brought kind of a new"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":66.74,"endTime":70.844,"body":"wrinkle into the VPN space in a way that, that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":66.74,"endTime":70.844,"body":"people hadn't expected."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":70.932,"endTime":74.172,"body":"Kind of blinds out a lot of people with a new"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":70.932,"endTime":74.172,"body":"take on things."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":74.356,"endTime":79.1,"body":"But before we get too deeply into, like, what"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":74.356,"endTime":79.1,"body":"Obscura is, I always like to hear a bit more"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":79.14,"endTime":80.54,"body":"about who's actually behind it."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":80.58,"endTime":81.884,"body":"Like, obviously yourself."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":82.012,"endTime":85.132,"body":"How did you get come to want to create a new"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":85.156,"endTime":89.052,"body":"VPN service?"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":85.156,"endTime":89.052,"body":"Like, how did the idea of Obscura itself come"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":89.076,"endTime":90.652,"body":"about?"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":89.076,"endTime":90.652,"body":"How'd you end up here?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":90.836,"endTime":91.6,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":94.42,"endTime":95.8,"body":"it's a long story,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":96.26,"endTime":100.236,"body":"so I'll give sort of a little bit of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":96.26,"endTime":100.236,"body":"background about myself."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":100.348,"endTime":104.68,"body":"And by the way, if I go into too many rabbit"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":100.348,"endTime":104.68,"body":"holes, feel free to stop me."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":105.3,"endTime":107.16,"body":"I'm just excited about these things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":107.7,"endTime":112.07,"body":"So, prior to Obscura, I was a Bitcoin core"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":107.7,"endTime":112.07,"body":"developer."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":112.23,"endTime":117.366,"body":"So I worked on Bitcoin Core, which is the main"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":112.23,"endTime":117.366,"body":"implementation of the Bitcoin protocol."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":117.558,"endTime":124.166,"body":"So I had three and a half years at ChainCode"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":117.558,"endTime":124.166,"body":"who sponsored me to work on Bitcoin core code"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":124.198,"endTime":124.454,"body":"base."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":124.502,"endTime":130.022,"body":"I was actually at Blockstream before that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":124.502,"endTime":130.022,"body":"partly overlapped when I was in college at"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":130.046,"endTime":130.838,"body":"Berkeley."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":131.014,"endTime":133.91,"body":"And when I was a Bitcoin core developer, I"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":133.95,"endTime":137.49,"body":"mainly worked on the Reproducible build"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":133.95,"endTime":137.49,"body":"system."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":138.44,"endTime":144.528,"body":"Now, for people who are unfamiliar with"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":138.44,"endTime":144.528,"body":"reproducible builds, what that basically is is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":144.664,"endTime":151.616,"body":"when you download, let's say, Bitcoin Core's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":144.664,"endTime":151.616,"body":"app, or Bitcoin D, or you Download the disk"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":151.648,"endTime":152.34,"body":"image,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":152.76,"endTime":158.16,"body":"you download something that's a binary and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":152.76,"endTime":158.16,"body":"then you have the source code that's on the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":158.2,"endTime":160.208,"body":"Bitcoin core repository."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":160.384,"endTime":163.2,"body":"So how do you know that the source code is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":163.24,"endTime":164.416,"body":"what you're downloading?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":164.528,"endTime":168.586,"body":"How do you know that, you know, somebody"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":164.528,"endTime":168.586,"body":"didn't tamper with the source code before"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":168.658,"endTime":171.978,"body":"they, you know, gave you the download and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":168.658,"endTime":171.978,"body":"things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":172.034,"endTime":175.53,"body":"And so that's what reproducible builds solves."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":175.61,"endTime":182.03,"body":"And it was solved previously with the Gitian"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":175.61,"endTime":182.03,"body":"system, that dev random setup."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":182.37,"endTime":189.786,"body":"I improved it in the sense of we were trying"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":182.37,"endTime":189.786,"body":"to solve for the trusting trust attack."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":189.938,"endTime":195.392,"body":"So the trusting trust attack is this attack"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":189.938,"endTime":195.392,"body":"that was posed by Ken Thompson, who made the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":195.416,"endTime":197.072,"body":"UNIX operating system."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":197.256,"endTime":204.3,"body":"And it was an attack whereby, if you can"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":197.256,"endTime":204.3,"body":"poison, if you think about compilers, right,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":204.76,"endTime":207.648,"body":"compilers, okay, compilers are compiling"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":204.76,"endTime":207.648,"body":"something."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":207.704,"endTime":211.28,"body":"But where do compilers come from?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":207.704,"endTime":211.28,"body":"They come from a previous generation of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":211.32,"endTime":215.152,"body":"compilers and it's sort of like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":211.32,"endTime":215.152,"body":"turtles all the way down, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":215.336,"endTime":221.73,"body":"So what Ken Thompson posed was that if you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":215.336,"endTime":221.73,"body":"poison one generation of compilers in a very"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":221.77,"endTime":229.762,"body":"smart way, you can actually have compilers"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":221.77,"endTime":229.762,"body":"that compile poisoned compilers, even if the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":229.786,"endTime":233.698,"body":"compiler code is correct and sort of go all"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":229.786,"endTime":233.698,"body":"the way down."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":233.834,"endTime":236.418,"body":"So that was sort of a supply chain attack."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":236.474,"endTime":239.282,"body":"And nowadays software supply chain attacks are"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":239.306,"endTime":244.674,"body":"everywhere because people have found out it's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":239.306,"endTime":244.674,"body":"the easiest way to get your bug in instead of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":244.682,"endTime":248.286,"body":"trying to figure out, oh, how do I buffer"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":244.682,"endTime":248.286,"body":"overflow this thing?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":248.438,"endTime":252.57,"body":"You can just do a supply chain attack and, and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":248.438,"endTime":252.57,"body":"you don't even need to worry about that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":252.87,"endTime":259.09,"body":"And so I always sort of bring a solution for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":252.87,"endTime":259.09,"body":"that trusting trust attack to Bitcoin's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":259.99,"endTime":265.71,"body":"reproducible build system, making it what we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":259.99,"endTime":265.71,"body":"call bootstrappable with geeks."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":265.87,"endTime":270.894,"body":"And now that is the release process for all"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":265.87,"endTime":270.894,"body":"Bitcoin core releases going forward."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":270.982,"endTime":278.33,"body":"And so I, you know, throughout my career it's,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":270.982,"endTime":278.33,"body":"it's, it's always been a focus on, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":278.37,"endTime":282.746,"body":"obviously user privacy and also about trust,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":278.37,"endTime":282.746,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":282.818,"endTime":287.59,"body":"How, how do we make it such that users can"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":282.818,"endTime":287.59,"body":"trust our,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":288.21,"endTime":291.05,"body":"what we build and, and the things that we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":288.21,"endTime":291.05,"body":"distribute?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":291.21,"endTime":296.282,"body":"I think that's especially important in a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":291.21,"endTime":296.282,"body":"digital world where, you know, nobody's going"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":296.306,"endTime":302.01,"body":"to like disassemble gigabytes of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":296.306,"endTime":302.01,"body":"gigabytes of binary just to know what's going"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":302.05,"endTime":302.394,"body":"on."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":302.482,"endTime":306.906,"body":"You really need to have a good process and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":302.482,"endTime":306.906,"body":"good story around that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":307.058,"endTime":313.61,"body":"And so, you know, after working on Bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":307.058,"endTime":313.61,"body":"core, I was looking around for things to do"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":313.65,"endTime":315.27,"body":"and things in the industry."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":316.13,"endTime":318.47,"body":"And thankfully enough,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":318.85,"endTime":324.03,"body":"I think it was Matt Carollo who was one of the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":318.85,"endTime":324.03,"body":"other Bitcoin core developers."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":324.53,"endTime":330.57,"body":"He told me he knew that I had sort of an"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":324.53,"endTime":330.57,"body":"interest in VPNs for a long time and he told"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":330.61,"endTime":333.814,"body":"me to look into Apple iCloud Relay."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":333.962,"endTime":336.942,"body":"And I looked into Apple and I, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":337.046,"endTime":341.95,"body":"perhaps naively thought that, oh, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":337.046,"endTime":341.95,"body":"it's, it's an Apple thing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":341.99,"endTime":343.87,"body":"When I first heard about it, I was like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":341.99,"endTime":343.87,"body":"it's an Apple thing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":343.91,"endTime":346.37,"body":"It's probably just, you know, some ordinary"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":343.91,"endTime":346.37,"body":"vpn,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":347.11,"endTime":350.574,"body":"oh, it's only for Safari, you know, what is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":347.11,"endTime":350.574,"body":"it?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":350.742,"endTime":353.93,"body":"But he was like, okay, actually look into the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":350.742,"endTime":353.93,"body":"tech behind it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":354.79,"endTime":360.938,"body":"And I, I was really enthralled really by how"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":354.79,"endTime":360.938,"body":"they designed it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":361.094,"endTime":363.47,"body":"It was sort of a hidden gem almost."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":364.25,"endTime":367.23,"body":"And there are two parts to this."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":367.53,"endTime":371.47,"body":"One part is, you know, having two party."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":371.93,"endTime":375.586,"body":"It's not only two hops, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":371.93,"endTime":375.586,"body":"It's more than two hops, it's more than multi"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":375.618,"endTime":375.906,"body":"hop."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":375.978,"endTime":378.482,"body":"Because if you have multi hop, if it's the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":378.506,"endTime":381.842,"body":"same provider that, you know, what, what are"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":378.506,"endTime":381.842,"body":"you gaining really, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":381.946,"endTime":388.578,"body":"It has to be two separate parties, two"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":381.946,"endTime":388.578,"body":"separate entities, two party hop, whereby the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":388.634,"endTime":393.75,"body":"first entity sort of knows who you are but"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":388.634,"endTime":393.75,"body":"doesn't know anything about your traffic and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":393.79,"endTime":398.054,"body":"the second exit entity doesn't know who you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":393.79,"endTime":398.054,"body":"are and serves you the traffic."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":398.102,"endTime":405.558,"body":"And I think in Apple's case it was Apple as"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":398.102,"endTime":405.558,"body":"the first hop and cloudflare Akamai or Fastly"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":405.654,"endTime":407.222,"body":"as the second hop."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":407.406,"endTime":409.43,"body":"And that was how they designed their scheme."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":409.51,"endTime":413.542,"body":"So I thought that was pretty ingenious."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":413.686,"endTime":418.28,"body":"And I looked into the underlying sort of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":413.686,"endTime":418.28,"body":"protocol that they were building, which was"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":418.32,"endTime":424.408,"body":"Masque M A S Q U E which is amazing name,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":418.32,"endTime":424.408,"body":"amazing acronym."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":424.584,"endTime":427.66,"body":"They backronymed it, I'm sure, and it was"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":424.584,"endTime":427.66,"body":"fantastic."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":428.32,"endTime":433.384,"body":"And I looked into it and I actually"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":428.32,"endTime":433.384,"body":"implemented my own version of the Mask UDP"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":433.432,"endTime":438.232,"body":"protocol in Rust and go, just to see how"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":433.432,"endTime":438.232,"body":"things worked and everything."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":438.416,"endTime":445.742,"body":"And I went to the IETF to talk to the working"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":438.416,"endTime":445.742,"body":"group about this and sort of just to get to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":445.766,"endTime":448.062,"body":"know people and you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":448.086,"endTime":449.726,"body":"they were, I had a great time."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":449.798,"endTime":452.446,"body":"They were networking nerds like I was."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":452.518,"endTime":453.13,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":453.75,"endTime":459.694,"body":"But that's sort of not the only thing that was"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":453.75,"endTime":459.694,"body":"interesting about Apple iCloud Relay."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":459.822,"endTime":468.142,"body":"The other big thing that was interesting about"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":459.822,"endTime":468.142,"body":"Apple iCloud Relay was the way that it did the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":468.166,"endTime":469.006,"body":"transport layer."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":469.038,"endTime":470.49,"body":"It used quite quick,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":470.87,"endTime":474.046,"body":"it used quick and http3."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":474.198,"endTime":478.302,"body":"And I thought that was really ingenious in a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":478.326,"endTime":482.526,"body":"very subtle way that people perhaps can't"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":478.326,"endTime":482.526,"body":"appreciate at first."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":482.678,"endTime":488.41,"body":"So I grew up for a part of my childhood in"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":482.678,"endTime":488.41,"body":"Shanghai in China."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":489.27,"endTime":492.494,"body":"And well, actually I was born there."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":492.582,"endTime":493.71,"body":"I grew up There."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":493.83,"endTime":499.152,"body":"And then in primary school, I went to London"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":493.83,"endTime":499.152,"body":"for a few years and then I came back to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":499.176,"endTime":500.656,"body":"Shanghai for three years."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":500.808,"endTime":506.16,"body":"And that was sort of when, you know, in London"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":500.808,"endTime":506.16,"body":"I was used to Facebook and YouTube and, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":506.2,"endTime":509.392,"body":"know, all these newfangled Google and all"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":506.2,"endTime":509.392,"body":"these things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":509.576,"endTime":512.736,"body":"And Wikipedia, I mean, Wikipedia, think about"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":509.576,"endTime":512.736,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":512.808,"endTime":517.088,"body":"And then coming back to Shanghai, the great"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":512.808,"endTime":517.088,"body":"firewall had just came up and I was like,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":517.144,"endTime":520.128,"body":"okay, I have access to none of these things,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":517.144,"endTime":520.128,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":520.184,"endTime":527.279,"body":"And so I had to, you know, do my own, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":520.184,"endTime":527.279,"body":"know, build my own VPNs for friends and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":527.319,"endTime":529.599,"body":"family, try out some of the commercial ones."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":529.679,"endTime":533.551,"body":"I think back then the protocols were very"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":529.679,"endTime":533.551,"body":"nascent."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":533.615,"endTime":535.631,"body":"It was like L2TP and PPTP."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":535.695,"endTime":538.559,"body":"I think those were very ancient algorithms."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":538.639,"endTime":546.911,"body":"And so I followed the journey, the evolution"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":538.639,"endTime":546.911,"body":"of all of these VPN protocols all the way up"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":546.935,"endTime":551.207,"body":"to OpenVPN and Wireguard and things like that,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":546.935,"endTime":551.207,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":551.303,"endTime":555.08,"body":"And certainly, you know, I've been in the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":551.303,"endTime":555.08,"body":"States since I was in high school, but every"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":555.12,"endTime":557.22,"body":"time, you know, I go back, visit family,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":557.76,"endTime":564.056,"body":"I would test, let's say, my new new ways"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":557.76,"endTime":564.056,"body":"against the great firewall and see what,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":564.128,"endTime":565.384,"body":"what's going on."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":565.552,"endTime":568.392,"body":"And I think one of the things that I realized"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":568.536,"endTime":577.26,"body":"was that for these network filters, let's say"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":568.536,"endTime":577.26,"body":"for, for all of these network filters,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":578.99,"endTime":586.966,"body":"what they want to do at the end of the day is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":578.99,"endTime":586.966,"body":"still, they still want to let benign traffic"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":586.998,"endTime":587.238,"body":"through."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":587.294,"endTime":589.654,"body":"They want to let good traffic through, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":589.742,"endTime":595.478,"body":"Like, you know, they want to let apple.com"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":589.742,"endTime":595.478,"body":"through, let's say, at the very least, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":595.614,"endTime":601.894,"body":"And so the best way, and this is sort of out"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":595.614,"endTime":601.894,"body":"of the community of there's a huge community"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":601.982,"endTime":609.916,"body":"on GitHub of basically either expats like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":601.982,"endTime":609.916,"body":"program software engineer expats in China, or,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":609.988,"endTime":615.324,"body":"you know, just networking nerds and engineer"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":609.988,"endTime":615.324,"body":"software engineers in China who are building"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":615.412,"endTime":617.436,"body":"these tunneling protocols."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":617.548,"endTime":623.32,"body":"And the thing that they have found is that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":617.548,"endTime":623.32,"body":"obfuscation is key."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":623.7,"endTime":628.508,"body":"Obfuscating your traffic and making your"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":623.7,"endTime":628.508,"body":"traffic look like benign traffic is really the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":628.564,"endTime":630.28,"body":"best way to get around it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":630.77,"endTime":636.49,"body":"There's sort of a mismatch, let's say, between"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":630.77,"endTime":636.49,"body":"people who build VPN protocols in the first"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":636.53,"endTime":644.522,"body":"world and people who build VPN protocols"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":636.53,"endTime":644.522,"body":"behind a firewall, let's say in that people"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":644.546,"endTime":649.77,"body":"who build not behind a firewall are always"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":644.546,"endTime":649.77,"body":"thinking about how can we make the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":649.81,"endTime":654.33,"body":"cryptography even better and more"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":649.81,"endTime":654.33,"body":"indistinguishable and the packets and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":654.37,"endTime":655.07,"body":"whatever."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":656.03,"endTime":662.534,"body":"And to a firewall they're like, okay, this"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":656.03,"endTime":662.534,"body":"stream looks too random."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":662.662,"endTime":666.294,"body":"You know, like looks, you know, too well"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":662.662,"endTime":666.294,"body":"protected."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":666.422,"endTime":670.566,"body":"And so I'm just going to like, Cut off your"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":666.422,"endTime":670.566,"body":"connection and we'll see what happens."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":670.598,"endTime":674.822,"body":"You know, and so it's really funny the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":670.598,"endTime":674.822,"body":"different approaches to things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":674.926,"endTime":678.678,"body":"And so bringing it back to Apple iCloud Relay."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":678.854,"endTime":683.218,"body":"By using Quic and HTTP 3 as transport, they"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":683.274,"endTime":687.81,"body":"now look more or less like the rest of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":683.274,"endTime":687.81,"body":"Internet traffic, which means they'll get"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":687.85,"endTime":690.034,"body":"around more firewalls."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":690.082,"endTime":694.338,"body":"Not to mention the fact that, you know, we can"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":690.082,"endTime":694.338,"body":"get into it later."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":694.474,"endTime":696.338,"body":"I've already gone too long on this question."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":696.394,"endTime":699.602,"body":"Now that it's over udp, which means that there"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":699.626,"endTime":704.83,"body":"are massive improvements in terms of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":699.626,"endTime":704.83,"body":"performance and latency and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":705.29,"endTime":709.388,"body":"Yeah, I think it's always"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":705.29,"endTime":709.388,"body":"fascinating to see how, I mean just the age"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":709.444,"endTime":714.428,"body":"old saying, necessity is the mother of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":709.444,"endTime":714.428,"body":"invention, leads to these, like, these, these"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":714.484,"endTime":718.204,"body":"iterative major changes over time when there"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":714.484,"endTime":718.204,"body":"is that pressure."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":718.252,"endTime":722.444,"body":"Because like you said, like someone who's"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":718.252,"endTime":722.444,"body":"developing a VPN service in the US is thinking"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":722.492,"endTime":727.228,"body":"very differently than someone who's developing"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":722.492,"endTime":727.228,"body":"a VPN service or a tool to do something"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":727.284,"endTime":729.148,"body":"similar in mainland China."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":729.204,"endTime":733.132,"body":"Like you have a very different set of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":729.204,"endTime":733.132,"body":"assumptions and things that you need to work"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":733.156,"endTime":733.532,"body":"around."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":733.636,"endTime":735.564,"body":"Which means that, that there's a lot more,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":735.732,"endTime":737.052,"body":"really more fascinating stuff there."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":737.076,"endTime":738.732,"body":"I mean honestly, VPNs for the most part in"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":738.756,"endTime":741.276,"body":"like the western world, a lot of people are"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":738.756,"endTime":741.276,"body":"just using them to get around geo"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":741.308,"endTime":741.948,"body":"restrictions."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":742.044,"endTime":744.684,"body":"So it's really just speed and changing the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":742.044,"endTime":744.684,"body":"location."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":744.732,"endTime":750.38,"body":"There's not nearly as much thought about the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":744.732,"endTime":750.38,"body":"more complex blocking of VPNs as there is when"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":750.42,"endTime":752.3,"body":"you're facing something like a firewall."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":752.46,"endTime":754.428,"body":"Yeah, let me add on to that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":754.484,"endTime":758.924,"body":"There's, there's this, the, the same tech"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":758.972,"endTime":761.68,"body":"that's used in the Chinese great firewall,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":762.36,"endTime":764.784,"body":"I think partly was developed by Cisco."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":764.912,"endTime":770.208,"body":"And so now at these, you know, it's not that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":770.264,"endTime":773.424,"body":"this is only relevant for people who are"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":770.264,"endTime":773.424,"body":"behind a nation state firewall."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":773.472,"endTime":773.92,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":774.04,"endTime":782.24,"body":"Nowadays like if you go into a cafe or going"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":774.04,"endTime":782.24,"body":"to an air like airport, public WI fi or any"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":782.28,"endTime":785.46,"body":"kind of public WI fi or your coworking space"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":782.28,"endTime":785.46,"body":"or your hotel,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":786.2,"endTime":792.396,"body":"they probably had some guy that was in the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":786.2,"endTime":792.396,"body":"admin portal and saw it, Cisco Advanced"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":792.428,"endTime":795.852,"body":"protection or something like that and just"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":792.428,"endTime":795.852,"body":"take that box without knowing about it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":795.876,"endTime":799.804,"body":"I'm not saying all of these, you know, admins"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":795.876,"endTime":799.804,"body":"are malicious or trying to control you or"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":799.812,"endTime":804.732,"body":"whatever, just ticking a box and they tick a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":799.812,"endTime":804.732,"body":"box and now your VPNs don't work."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":804.836,"endTime":805.244,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":805.332,"endTime":807.692,"body":"And these are like the networks where you want"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":807.716,"endTime":808.444,"body":"to use a vpn."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":808.492,"endTime":811.26,"body":"I'm not trying to, you know, I want to use my"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":811.3,"endTime":812.908,"body":"VPN on a public network."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":812.964,"endTime":813.18,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":813.22,"endTime":817.17,"body":"And most of these Public networks have these"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":813.22,"endTime":817.17,"body":"kind of advanced protection stuff."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":817.3,"endTime":823.766,"body":"Um, and so, yeah, it's not only just relevant"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":817.3,"endTime":823.766,"body":"for people who are behind a firewall."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":823.878,"endTime":826.07,"body":"No, yeah, yeah, no, I think you're"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":823.878,"endTime":826.07,"body":"definitely right."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":826.11,"endTime":830.182,"body":"Even if those things are often being created"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":826.11,"endTime":830.182,"body":"because of more adversarial environments,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":830.246,"endTime":831.51,"body":"they're, they are useful here."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":831.55,"endTime":833.142,"body":"And I have, I mean I have definitely noticed"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":833.206,"endTime":838.902,"body":"that an increase in, when I join a public"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":833.206,"endTime":838.902,"body":"network, it blocks my VPN or it blocks my"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":838.926,"endTime":839.654,"body":"custom DNS."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":839.702,"endTime":844.088,"body":"Like it's becoming much, much more common as"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":839.702,"endTime":844.088,"body":"we go because that tooling is."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":844.214,"endTime":848.324,"body":"There's a lot of, obviously there are a lot of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":844.214,"endTime":848.324,"body":"legitimate reasons to want to block VPNs or to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":848.332,"endTime":853.316,"body":"block custom DNS from a system admin"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":848.332,"endTime":853.316,"body":"perspective, but obviously for the end user,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":853.348,"endTime":855.924,"body":"especially one who's relying on VPN for"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":853.348,"endTime":855.924,"body":"personal privacy,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":855.972,"endTime":859.524,"body":"it's a, it's a big detractor from the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":855.972,"endTime":859.524,"body":"usefulness of vpn."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":859.572,"endTime":861.668,"body":"So that's definitely a key aspect there."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":861.804,"endTime":863.124,"body":"Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":863.252,"endTime":867.316,"body":"Yeah. I think I was actually kind"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":863.252,"endTime":867.316,"body":"of surprised that you mentioned icloud Relay"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":867.348,"endTime":872.05,"body":"because I feel like it, it really is this"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":867.348,"endTime":872.05,"body":"unsung thing that doesn't get that much like"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":872.09,"endTime":875.33,"body":"coverage or thought like Apple just dropped it"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":872.09,"endTime":875.33,"body":"and we're like, hey, now everybody has this"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":875.37,"endTime":881.73,"body":"really cool multi hop, multi vendor like VPN"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":875.37,"endTime":881.73,"body":"overnight and just kind of moved on."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":881.77,"endTime":884.978,"body":"And I don't see them talking about it much or"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":881.77,"endTime":884.978,"body":"other people talking about it much."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":885.114,"endTime":890.37,"body":"Obviously it has the downside it is closed"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":885.114,"endTime":890.37,"body":"source, but it's pretty amazing to see the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":890.41,"endTime":892.098,"body":"actual technology that they built."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":892.194,"endTime":895.848,"body":"And so it's cool also to see that that kind of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":892.194,"endTime":895.848,"body":"inspired some of obscura as well."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":896.034,"endTime":897.24,"body":"No, 100%."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":898.02,"endTime":902.076,"body":"It was super interesting that got released."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":902.108,"endTime":906.04,"body":"And one thing I will say is I think it was"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":907.3,"endTime":914.36,"body":"recently I've got introduced to the Privacy"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":907.3,"endTime":914.36,"body":"Guides community."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":915.06,"endTime":922.188,"body":"And so Privacy Guides is this community"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":915.06,"endTime":922.188,"body":"resource where they talk about various"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":922.284,"endTime":924.188,"body":"technologies, technical privacy topics."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":924.284,"endTime":928.06,"body":"And it's very well moderated without sort of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":928.18,"endTime":933.16,"body":"the hate and vitriol that sometimes Internet"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":928.18,"endTime":933.16,"body":"forums get into."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":933.46,"endTime":936.108,"body":"And they really know their stuff."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":936.284,"endTime":938.972,"body":"And I think they were one of the few where"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":939.076,"endTime":945.836,"body":"they had articles that were like, where are"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":939.076,"endTime":945.836,"body":"all the multi party relay VPNs?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":946.028,"endTime":951.496,"body":"And talking about icloud relay and being like,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":946.028,"endTime":951.496,"body":"this is great, like why aren't more people"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":951.568,"endTime":952.216,"body":"building this?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":952.288,"endTime":953.544,"body":"I was like, yes, that's."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":953.592,"endTime":954.872,"body":"Yeah, that's what we're doing."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":954.976,"endTime":956.664,"body":"Yes, you were ready."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":956.712,"endTime":957.304,"body":"You were ready."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":957.352,"endTime":962.072,"body":"Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a big departure"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":957.352,"endTime":962.072,"body":"from what the traditional VPN paradigm has"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":962.096,"endTime":966.6,"body":"been, which is essentially I'm shifting trust"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":962.096,"endTime":966.6,"body":"from one entity to another entity."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":966.68,"endTime":968.936,"body":"There's no like decentralization."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":969.048,"endTime":972.296,"body":"There's no real change in what the trust model"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":972.328,"endTime":972.616,"body":"is."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":972.688,"endTime":975.64,"body":"It's just I trust Mulvan, for instance, much"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":975.68,"endTime":977.624,"body":"more than I trust my isp."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":977.672,"endTime":979.352,"body":"My ISP is all my personal data."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":979.456,"endTime":981.876,"body":"They see all the rest of the traffic on my"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":979.456,"endTime":981.876,"body":"home network."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":982.028,"endTime":983.668,"body":"They have a lot more incentives to sell that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":982.028,"endTime":983.668,"body":"data."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":983.724,"endTime":984.532,"body":"Mobile doesn't."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":984.596,"endTime":986.372,"body":"So that's been like the normal paradigm that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":986.396,"endTime":990.884,"body":"we've gotten used to with the really the only"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":986.396,"endTime":990.884,"body":"alternative up to this point being the Tor"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":990.932,"endTime":995.124,"body":"network, which is a very different set of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":990.932,"endTime":995.124,"body":"assumptions and very different set of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":995.212,"endTime":998.708,"body":"protections and threat models that you would"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":995.212,"endTime":998.708,"body":"want to use it for."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":998.764,"endTime":1004.92,"body":"So I think that something like Obscura kind of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":998.764,"endTime":1004.92,"body":"fits in pretty well in between that model."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1005.5,"endTime":1009.798,"body":"So what was it like?"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1005.5,"endTime":1009.798,"body":"What, what made it so important to you to make"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1009.854,"endTime":1013.83,"body":"Obscura and to kind of shift this paradigm?"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1009.854,"endTime":1013.83,"body":"Like maybe tell us a little bit more about"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1013.87,"endTime":1014.502,"body":"Obscura here."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1014.526,"endTime":1017.462,"body":"Cause I feel like we've been beating around"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1014.526,"endTime":1017.462,"body":"the bushes a little bit about what it is, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1017.566,"endTime":1021.174,"body":"tell us a little bit about what it is and why"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1017.566,"endTime":1021.174,"body":"you thought that was a necessary like missing"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1021.222,"endTime":1022.886,"body":"piece in the ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1023.078,"endTime":1024.086,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1023.078,"endTime":1024.086,"body":"A hundred percent."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1024.158,"endTime":1033.03,"body":"Well, Obscura is a next generation VPN that is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1024.158,"endTime":1033.03,"body":"a, you know, we can't log your activity and we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1033.07,"endTime":1034.757,"body":"outsmart Internet censorship."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1034.853,"endTime":1035.397,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1035.533,"endTime":1041.765,"body":"We're taking two of the major features that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1035.533,"endTime":1041.765,"body":"were in icloud relay and all these multi party"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1041.837,"endTime":1046.849,"body":"relay schemes and bring it together in a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1041.837,"endTime":1046.849,"body":"really polished app."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1047.389,"endTime":1056.805,"body":"What we do is in Obscura's two party relay"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1047.389,"endTime":1056.805,"body":"scheme, Obscura is the first hop and Mulvad"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1056.917,"endTime":1059.285,"body":"who we've partnered with is the second hub."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1059.317,"endTime":1061.342,"body":"Now we've partnered with Mullvad because we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1061.366,"endTime":1064.89,"body":"think they're one of the most trustworthy VPN"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1061.366,"endTime":1064.89,"body":"providers out there."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1065.43,"endTime":1071.534,"body":"And so with this two party scheme, as I talked"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1065.43,"endTime":1071.534,"body":"about before us, as Obscura, we know who you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1071.542,"endTime":1076.222,"body":"are because we have to know that you paid, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1071.542,"endTime":1076.222,"body":"we literally can't see anything about your"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1076.246,"endTime":1077.41,"body":"Internet traffic,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1077.99,"endTime":1080.718,"body":"sort of, not even the metadata or anything"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1077.99,"endTime":1080.718,"body":"like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1080.774,"endTime":1081.086,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1081.158,"endTime":1084.09,"body":"You know, even with tls, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1085.51,"endTime":1092.472,"body":"there's the SNI indication, which means that's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1085.51,"endTime":1092.472,"body":"the, the unencrypted part of TLS packets that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1092.496,"endTime":1093.784,"body":"tells you the host name."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1093.952,"endTime":1095.912,"body":"And so we don't know anything about your"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1095.936,"endTime":1096.392,"body":"traffic."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1096.456,"endTime":1098.616,"body":"And on Mobat side they don't know anything"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1098.648,"endTime":1099.304,"body":"about you."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1099.392,"endTime":1105.32,"body":"They just know that you're one of, I don't"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1099.392,"endTime":1105.32,"body":"know, a few hundred Obscura users and they"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1105.36,"endTime":1110.74,"body":"serve you the Internet traffic as they go to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1105.36,"endTime":1110.74,"body":"google.com and YouTube and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1111.84,"endTime":1116.84,"body":"And so that's what Obscura is and that is what"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1111.84,"endTime":1116.84,"body":"we've built."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1117.0,"endTime":1123.382,"body":"And right now we are on Mac OS and I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1117.0,"endTime":1123.382,"body":"we'll go into sort of different platforms and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1123.406,"endTime":1124.45,"body":"all these things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1125.07,"endTime":1135.702,"body":"But what we do, let's say as a service is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1125.07,"endTime":1135.702,"body":"we've adopted Mulvad's account number scheme"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1135.846,"endTime":1139.926,"body":"so that you know, you don't need to provide an"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1135.846,"endTime":1139.926,"body":"email address or anything to sign up."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1139.998,"endTime":1145.958,"body":"And we also accept Bitcoin over Lightning for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1139.998,"endTime":1145.958,"body":"payments because we don't like, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1146.014,"endTime":1152.724,"body":"see personal information as toxic waste and we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1146.014,"endTime":1152.724,"body":"want to collect the least amount possible"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1152.892,"endTime":1153.412,"body":"about you."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1153.436,"endTime":1155.28,"body":"We just want to offer you a good service."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1155.82,"endTime":1156.596,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1156.628,"endTime":1159.204,"body":"And that I think the, the payment in Bitcoin"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1159.252,"endTime":1164.18,"body":"or something like Monero is such a vital part"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1159.252,"endTime":1164.18,"body":"of it as well because like you said like you"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1164.3,"endTime":1169.188,"body":"especially if you weren't in the multi vendor"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1164.3,"endTime":1169.188,"body":"model that you're doing now or two party"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1169.244,"endTime":1173.156,"body":"system, it's even more problematic if you're"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1169.244,"endTime":1173.156,"body":"giving over credit card info or shipping"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1173.188,"endTime":1175.382,"body":"address or not shipping address but billing"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1173.188,"endTime":1175.382,"body":"address to,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1175.476,"endTime":1179.154,"body":"to a VP provider because then they have"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1175.476,"endTime":1179.154,"body":"basically the same info on you that an ISP"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1179.202,"endTime":1182.418,"body":"does and you haven't really removed any trust"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1179.202,"endTime":1182.418,"body":"at all."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1182.474,"endTime":1183.026,"body":"You've just."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1183.098,"endTime":1183.83,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1184.25,"endTime":1192.498,"body":"Yeah. And we believe a lot in sort of layering"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1184.25,"endTime":1192.498,"body":"privacy let's say in that you know, if we can,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1192.554,"endTime":1195.49,"body":"we should have multiple layers of privacy."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1195.57,"endTime":1197.746,"body":"Another thing that I'll note that I've talked"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1197.778,"endTime":1204.56,"body":"about before with iCloud Relay is we do use"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1197.778,"endTime":1204.56,"body":"QUIC as our transport from the user to our"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1204.6,"endTime":1211.024,"body":"first hop and so that allows you to get past"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1204.6,"endTime":1211.024,"body":"many more firewalls and restrictions than"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1211.112,"endTime":1212.7,"body":"normal VPNs do."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1213.32,"endTime":1216.272,"body":"Yeah. And kind of continuing to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1213.32,"endTime":1216.272,"body":"compare this a little bit to other things in"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1216.296,"endTime":1221.136,"body":"the space like it's, it's not, it's obviously"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1216.296,"endTime":1221.136,"body":"much better than a traditional vpn."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1221.328,"endTime":1227.02,"body":"It's not as full blown privacy as something"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1221.328,"endTime":1227.02,"body":"like a mixnet like Nim would be."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1227.72,"endTime":1232.768,"body":"And it's also probably not quite as much"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1227.72,"endTime":1232.768,"body":"privacy preserving as Tor network is."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1232.824,"endTime":1234.016,"body":"It's kind of like in the spectrum."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1234.048,"endTime":1236.0,"body":"Like how do you see it comparing in terms of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1236.04,"endTime":1240.512,"body":"like who would use this versus a traditional"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1236.04,"endTime":1240.512,"body":"VPN or something like a mixnet, like kind of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1240.536,"endTime":1241.648,"body":"the broad spectrum."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1241.824,"endTime":1242.496,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1242.648,"endTime":1243.34,"body":"I,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1243.96,"endTime":1248.224,"body":"so I, I, I'm not a hundred percent too"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1243.96,"endTime":1248.224,"body":"familiar with Nim's exact scheme."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1248.272,"endTime":1253.472,"body":"So I, I'm, I'm not going to speak to that but"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1248.272,"endTime":1253.472,"body":"I can speak to sort of compared to Tor and,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1253.496,"endTime":1257.59,"body":"and people who use Tor I think I'm not Sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1257.63,"endTime":1263.046,"body":"It's quite as easy to model as a spectrum as"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1257.63,"endTime":1263.046,"body":"you would think."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1263.118,"endTime":1269.414,"body":"I think we're just trying to serve a different"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1263.118,"endTime":1269.414,"body":"archetype of users."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1269.542,"endTime":1273.49,"body":"We want Obscura to be the best R and VPN out"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1269.542,"endTime":1273.49,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1274.03,"endTime":1279.01,"body":"Not just for privacy, but also for everyday"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1274.03,"endTime":1279.01,"body":"use and ease of use."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1279.79,"endTime":1284.718,"body":"Right now I'm connected to Obscura talking to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1279.79,"endTime":1284.718,"body":"you, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1284.774,"endTime":1286.014,"body":"And I think the latency."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1286.062,"endTime":1287.71,"body":"Okay, well there we go, perfect."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1287.87,"endTime":1289.502,"body":"And I think the latency is pretty good."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1289.526,"endTime":1292.686,"body":"And I use it for, you know, all my calls."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1292.878,"endTime":1296.97,"body":"I use it to, you know, watch 4K HDR video."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1297.35,"endTime":1304.75,"body":"I want to make sure that the thing that we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1297.35,"endTime":1304.75,"body":"want to change is the default for the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1304.79,"endTime":1308.942,"body":"Internet, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1304.79,"endTime":1308.942,"body":"And to change the default and for people to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1308.966,"endTime":1316.48,"body":"adopt a different default, you can't be worse"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1308.966,"endTime":1316.48,"body":"or you can't be substantially worse than the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1316.52,"endTime":1317.98,"body":"existing experience."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1318.36,"endTime":1323.6,"body":"And so when we think about Obscura, that's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1318.36,"endTime":1323.6,"body":"sort of the niche that we fill in, that people"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1323.64,"endTime":1326.88,"body":"who want to use it for everyday use, right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1327.0,"endTime":1330.224,"body":"And so when it comes to the everyday use and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1330.232,"endTime":1334.58,"body":"the speed and the reliability in terms of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1330.232,"endTime":1334.58,"body":"mixnets or Tor,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1334.92,"endTime":1341.984,"body":"their advantages in terms of privacy and sort"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1334.92,"endTime":1341.984,"body":"of freedom of participation is a double edged"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1342.032,"endTime":1342.72,"body":"sword almost."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1342.84,"endTime":1345.616,"body":"And that, you know, it becomes where, okay,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1345.648,"endTime":1351.008,"body":"you're not sure if any particular node is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1345.648,"endTime":1351.008,"body":"going to be that reliable, is going to be sort"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1351.024,"endTime":1353.072,"body":"of that well maintained and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1353.176,"endTime":1356.64,"body":"And perhaps that makes it infeasible for daily"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1353.176,"endTime":1356.64,"body":"use at times."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1356.76,"endTime":1361.92,"body":"Although I will say, like, I'm a big fan of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1356.76,"endTime":1361.92,"body":"these projects, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1361.96,"endTime":1367.508,"body":"I'm, I am all for new projects that advance"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1361.96,"endTime":1367.508,"body":"Internet privacy and everything like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1367.564,"endTime":1368.052,"body":"And so."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1368.076,"endTime":1369.86,"body":"Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely agree."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1369.9,"endTime":1372.64,"body":"I think it's also, it's vital to have"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1372.94,"endTime":1377.076,"body":"offerings in different niches because they"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1372.94,"endTime":1377.076,"body":"provide different things."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1377.148,"endTime":1380.148,"body":"Like you mentioned, like there's a very"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1377.148,"endTime":1380.148,"body":"different threat model for somebody who wants"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1380.164,"endTime":1383.716,"body":"to use Tor for all their traffic or for"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1380.164,"endTime":1383.716,"body":"somebody that even wants to use a mixnet,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1383.748,"endTime":1388.532,"body":"which is even more extreme than maybe somebody"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1383.748,"endTime":1388.532,"body":"who wants to just use a simple VPN that they"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1388.556,"endTime":1389.588,"body":"turn on and they forget about."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1389.644,"endTime":1391.912,"body":"Which I think Obscura has been filling that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1391.936,"endTime":1392.808,"body":"role really well for me."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1392.864,"endTime":1398.776,"body":"It is a cool test case that we're recording"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1392.864,"endTime":1398.776,"body":"this both over Obscura, so should be a cool"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1398.808,"endTime":1401.08,"body":"example of how, how low latency it is."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1401.12,"endTime":1403.22,"body":"We have video between the two of us as well,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1403.6,"endTime":1405.032,"body":"even though that's not recorded."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1405.096,"endTime":1406.552,"body":"So it's a cool test for that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1406.576,"endTime":1411.016,"body":"But it is definitely one of those situations"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1406.576,"endTime":1411.016,"body":"where it, it's, I mean, it's just kind of the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1411.088,"endTime":1415.272,"body":"crux of how useful will A privacy tool be is"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1411.088,"endTime":1415.272,"body":"how good is the user experience?"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1415.456,"endTime":1419.524,"body":"And I think that's where something like Signal"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1415.456,"endTime":1419.524,"body":"has just destroyed a lot of competition"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1419.572,"endTime":1420.836,"body":"because they're just really easy to use."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1420.908,"endTime":1423.172,"body":"They also provide very strong privacy, and the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1423.276,"endTime":1427.54,"body":"default is strong privacy, and that's where a"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1423.276,"endTime":1427.54,"body":"lot of these privacy tools really have to get."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1427.58,"endTime":1430.788,"body":"So I definitely, definitely agree on that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1430.924,"endTime":1433.14,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, glad to hear."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1433.26,"endTime":1436.564,"body":"Yeah. One of the things that you"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1433.26,"endTime":1436.564,"body":"mentioned and as a key thing for people to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1436.572,"endTime":1440.82,"body":"understand, is your partner right now for the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1436.572,"endTime":1440.82,"body":"exit node, for lack of a better term."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1440.86,"endTime":1444.898,"body":"Do you have a different terminology for like,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1440.86,"endTime":1444.898,"body":"who the exit partner is, or do you all go with"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1444.964,"endTime":1446.71,"body":"kind of similar Tor like terminology?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1446.79,"endTime":1450.982,"body":"Yeah, I use exit node, exit, party,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1446.79,"endTime":1450.982,"body":"interchange."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1451.046,"endTime":1454.566,"body":"We should probably have a glossary and nail"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1451.046,"endTime":1454.566,"body":"down one term."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1454.638,"endTime":1456.022,"body":"But the exit."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1456.086,"endTime":1457.57,"body":"The exit, let's say."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1458.35,"endTime":1459.254,"body":"One second."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1459.422,"endTime":1460.134,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1460.182,"endTime":1461.43,"body":"And you've."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1461.51,"endTime":1463.894,"body":"Y'all have launched with Mullvad as your main"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1461.51,"endTime":1463.894,"body":"partner."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1463.942,"endTime":1466.422,"body":"I know that you already have a good"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1463.942,"endTime":1466.422,"body":"relationship with them."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1466.526,"endTime":1472.572,"body":"And Mullvad, I mean, has been one of the most"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1466.526,"endTime":1472.572,"body":"respected and most useful VPN providers in the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1472.596,"endTime":1475.788,"body":"space, like one that I've recommended for a"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1472.596,"endTime":1475.788,"body":"long time and has a great track record."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1475.844,"endTime":1478.668,"body":"So I don't think anybody's really complaining"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1475.844,"endTime":1478.668,"body":"that that was the choice."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1478.844,"endTime":1483.196,"body":"But two things I kind of would like to know"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1478.844,"endTime":1483.196,"body":"about that, like, why Mullvad for your."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1483.268,"endTime":1484.284,"body":"Your first partner?"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1484.332,"endTime":1489.292,"body":"And then do you have plans to expand to allow"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1484.332,"endTime":1489.292,"body":"other exit nodes or exit partners in the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1489.316,"endTime":1489.88,"body":"future?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1490.42,"endTime":1495.132,"body":"Yeah, I, you know, we chose Mulvad"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1490.42,"endTime":1495.132,"body":"because they're one."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1495.236,"endTime":1499.06,"body":"We think they're one of the most trustworthy"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1495.236,"endTime":1499.06,"body":"VPN providers out there."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1499.22,"endTime":1499.92,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1501.42,"endTime":1505.28,"body":"They've been real pioneers in this space,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1507.26,"endTime":1513.06,"body":"whether it be accepting Bitcoin since 2010,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1507.26,"endTime":1513.06,"body":"which is amazing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1513.14,"endTime":1513.76,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1514.3,"endTime":1518.372,"body":"I actually didn't know about this because I"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1514.3,"endTime":1518.372,"body":"hadn't paid attention, but they've been"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1518.396,"endTime":1520.64,"body":"accepting Bitcoin since 2010."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1521.1,"endTime":1526.23,"body":"They innovated with the account numbers"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1521.1,"endTime":1526.23,"body":"scheme, which I thought was."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1526.27,"endTime":1529.286,"body":"So I remember seeing this when I was in"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1526.27,"endTime":1529.286,"body":"college."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1529.318,"endTime":1530.454,"body":"I thought it was so ingenious."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1530.502,"endTime":1532.854,"body":"I was like, yeah, why did."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1532.942,"endTime":1535.206,"body":"Why do they need my email for this?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1532.942,"endTime":1535.206,"body":"Why?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1535.278,"endTime":1537.97,"body":"There's no reason they need my email for this."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1538.51,"endTime":1542.31,"body":"You know, and if I, you know, if I need"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1538.51,"endTime":1542.31,"body":"support, I'll just email them."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1542.35,"endTime":1546.23,"body":"But like, you know, otherwise there doesn't"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1542.35,"endTime":1546.23,"body":"need to be anything done with that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1546.27,"endTime":1550.374,"body":"And it's just a random number, so you're not"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1546.27,"endTime":1550.374,"body":"like fiddling around with some password"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1550.422,"endTime":1552.104,"body":"generator to generate a number."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1552.262,"endTime":1553.092,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1553.236,"endTime":1558.084,"body":"And, you know, and also they make hard"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1558.252,"endTime":1559.4,"body":"decisions,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1560.3,"endTime":1567.604,"body":"almost counterintuitive business decisions for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1560.3,"endTime":1567.604,"body":"better OPSEC and infrastructure security."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1567.772,"endTime":1573.94,"body":"Like, I think they're retiring OpenVPN pretty"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1567.772,"endTime":1573.94,"body":"soon if they've already retired OpenVPN."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1574.02,"endTime":1579.812,"body":"I mean, I remember when I was looking into"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1574.02,"endTime":1579.812,"body":"OpenVPN and the implementation and things like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1579.836,"endTime":1584.856,"body":"that, I was like, this, this is, like, this is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1579.836,"endTime":1584.856,"body":"great that it has all these features,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1584.888,"endTime":1586.92,"body":"but it's too configurable."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1587.0,"endTime":1590.296,"body":"And I'm sure there's a bunch of CVEs in here."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1590.368,"endTime":1594.632,"body":"Like, this just doesn't look like it's going"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1590.368,"endTime":1594.632,"body":"to be so, you know, retiring, things like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1594.656,"endTime":1595.22,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1596.0,"endTime":1599.7,"body":"They've been a real pioneer and that's why we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1596.0,"endTime":1599.7,"body":"chose them."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1600.08,"endTime":1603.832,"body":"I've also had a good, good, really great"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1600.08,"endTime":1603.832,"body":"relationship with them."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1603.936,"endTime":1609.596,"body":"I remember the first time I reached out to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1603.936,"endTime":1609.596,"body":"Jan, their CEO."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1609.628,"endTime":1617.452,"body":"I think this was back in 2020 when I was first"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1609.628,"endTime":1617.452,"body":"starting to resell Mulvad vouchers for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1617.476,"endTime":1618.24,"body":"Lightning."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1618.82,"endTime":1625.836,"body":"And I reached out to him and we communicated"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1618.82,"endTime":1625.836,"body":"over PGP encrypted email."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1625.908,"endTime":1629.052,"body":"I was like, this is pretty, like this is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1625.908,"endTime":1629.052,"body":"pretty cool."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1629.196,"endTime":1632.284,"body":"There are dozens of us going, yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1632.332,"endTime":1635.836,"body":"So they really, they get it, they're really"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1632.332,"endTime":1635.836,"body":"about it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1635.908,"endTime":1640.4,"body":"And so we wouldn't have chosen anybody else to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1635.908,"endTime":1640.4,"body":"be our first."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1641.26,"endTime":1647.812,"body":"Now, in terms of giving users a choice and,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1641.26,"endTime":1647.812,"body":"you know, other providers for the exit and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1647.836,"endTime":1651.396,"body":"things like that, we really hope that we will"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1647.836,"endTime":1651.396,"body":"be able to do this."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1651.468,"endTime":1653.44,"body":"I think, you know, one of my,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1654.46,"endTime":1659.48,"body":"one of my dreams, and perhaps, perhaps this is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1654.46,"endTime":1659.48,"body":"too optimistic a dream,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1659.9,"endTime":1666.02,"body":"is that I hope that we can elevate the VPN"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1659.9,"endTime":1666.02,"body":"industry."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1666.56,"endTime":1675.144,"body":"I hope that we can elevate the VPN industry to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1666.56,"endTime":1675.144,"body":"a place where perhaps all of the VPN providers"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1675.272,"endTime":1680.872,"body":"could be second hops for each other and be"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1675.272,"endTime":1680.872,"body":"interoperable with each other."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1680.976,"endTime":1686.648,"body":"Now that requires making, as I said before,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1680.976,"endTime":1686.648,"body":"hard decisions, let's say, about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1686.784,"endTime":1688.616,"body":"your business and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1688.768,"endTime":1691.662,"body":"But I think if we can get to that place, no"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1691.686,"endTime":1696.766,"body":"matter how we get there, that would make the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1691.686,"endTime":1696.766,"body":"entire industry way more credible."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1696.878,"endTime":1702.638,"body":"Right, Way more credible in terms of, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1696.878,"endTime":1702.638,"body":"know, the claims that they make in terms of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1702.694,"endTime":1704.446,"body":"the base level of privacy."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1704.558,"endTime":1707.102,"body":"And we're actually doing something great for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1707.126,"endTime":1710.718,"body":"the health of the open Internet and I think"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1707.126,"endTime":1710.718,"body":"that would be great."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1710.774,"endTime":1716.028,"body":"So I hope we get there and certainly, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1710.774,"endTime":1716.028,"body":"know, I'll be reaching out to folks."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1716.214,"endTime":1717.472,"body":"Yeah, I'm definitely excited for"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1716.214,"endTime":1717.472,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1717.496,"endTime":1720.368,"body":"I mean, especially just for the resiliency,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1717.496,"endTime":1720.368,"body":"like not even."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1720.424,"endTime":1723.104,"body":"Because, like, I certainly don't have any"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1720.424,"endTime":1723.104,"body":"issue with mopod."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1723.152,"endTime":1725.472,"body":"They've been fantastic and all my"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1723.152,"endTime":1725.472,"body":"communications with them as well."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1725.496,"endTime":1729.184,"body":"So it's not like I want to use a different"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1725.496,"endTime":1729.184,"body":"partner necessarily, but or just from a"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1729.192,"endTime":1733.584,"body":"resiliency perspective, it would be really"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1729.192,"endTime":1733.584,"body":"cool to see others added in maybe like an IVPN"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1733.632,"endTime":1737.168,"body":"or something like that to have that, that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1733.632,"endTime":1737.168,"body":"optionality for sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1737.224,"endTime":1740.06,"body":"But I think it's been, it's been fantastic so"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1737.224,"endTime":1740.06,"body":"far,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1740.76,"endTime":1741.696,"body":"kind of on that vein."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1741.728,"endTime":1744.234,"body":"So obviously it's going to be a little bit of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1744.242,"endTime":1750.826,"body":"a different bandwidth and latency system, I"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1744.242,"endTime":1750.826,"body":"guess you could say, than if you're just using"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1750.898,"endTime":1752.154,"body":"something like mulbot."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1752.282,"endTime":1756.49,"body":"Have you done any like hard numbers on what"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1752.282,"endTime":1756.49,"body":"the expectation is in like latency increase or"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1756.53,"endTime":1759.338,"body":"bandwidth loss for doing this two party"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1756.53,"endTime":1759.338,"body":"system?"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1759.474,"endTime":1763.61,"body":"It doesn't seem like much in my testing, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1759.474,"endTime":1763.61,"body":"I'm just curious if you have any kind of real"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1763.65,"endTime":1764.826,"body":"comparison there."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1764.978,"endTime":1773.186,"body":"Well, I, okay, I, I, I did a test"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1764.978,"endTime":1773.186,"body":"this morning on my crappy, you know, home"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1773.258,"endTime":1781.658,"body":"connection and you know, anecdotal, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1773.258,"endTime":1781.658,"body":"bandwidth wise I think it was 73 versus 64"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1782.041,"endTime":1789.47,"body":"Mbps and latency wise it was 17.3 milliseconds"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1782.041,"endTime":1789.47,"body":"versus 19."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1790.01,"endTime":1793.778,"body":"So it's within the acceptable range for sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1793.834,"endTime":1796.59,"body":"And it's not noticeable at all for me,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1797.12,"endTime":1801.88,"body":"you know, I do all my, as I said before, I do"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1797.12,"endTime":1801.88,"body":"all my calls on Obscura, including this one."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1802.0,"endTime":1803.624,"body":"No noticeable latency."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1803.672,"endTime":1806.52,"body":"And you know, I stream Twitch stream."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1806.6,"endTime":1810.584,"body":"I think the real test is like twitch stream,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1806.6,"endTime":1810.584,"body":"low latency mode."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1810.632,"endTime":1813.928,"body":"Right. Because like YouTube you can buffer and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1810.632,"endTime":1813.928,"body":"things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1813.984,"endTime":1814.584,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1814.752,"endTime":1817.912,"body":"And with, you know, even 4K, do Twitch have"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1817.936,"endTime":1822.392,"body":"4K?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1817.936,"endTime":1822.392,"body":"At least the 1080p 60fps streams I'm able to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1822.416,"endTime":1823.58,"body":"stream just fine."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1823.93,"endTime":1826.674,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I've seen pretty much"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1823.93,"endTime":1826.674,"body":"the same, I mean like, like I mentioned at the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1826.682,"endTime":1831.282,"body":"top of the show, I've been using Obscura since"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1826.682,"endTime":1831.282,"body":"I guess before the public launch for my daily"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1831.346,"endTime":1835.074,"body":"driver, I had to switch to a Mac for work"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1831.346,"endTime":1835.074,"body":"anyways, which was good timing to be able to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1835.082,"endTime":1838.13,"body":"use Obscura because otherwise I wouldn't have"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1835.082,"endTime":1838.13,"body":"even been able to use it yet."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1838.17,"endTime":1843.202,"body":"But I, I, every call, every podcast recording,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1838.17,"endTime":1843.202,"body":"I haven't turned it off because I really"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1843.226,"endTime":1845.074,"body":"wanted to put it through the ringer and it's"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1843.226,"endTime":1845.074,"body":"been really fun."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1845.082,"endTime":1846.306,"body":"I'm happy to hear that, Seth."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1846.418,"endTime":1848.69,"body":"Yeah, this is, that's an"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1846.418,"endTime":1848.69,"body":"unsponsored take by the way."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1848.73,"endTime":1851.928,"body":"Carl has not paid me any money to say that,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1848.73,"endTime":1851.928,"body":"but it's just been a good tool."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1851.984,"endTime":1852.78,"body":"Hell yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1853.44,"endTime":1854.04,"body":"That's great."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1854.08,"endTime":1855.544,"body":"Yeah. And we, we, we."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1855.712,"endTime":1858.58,"body":"I'm really happy to hear that we have put."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1860.08,"endTime":1866.008,"body":"And I think it's, it's, it's sort of a good"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1860.08,"endTime":1866.008,"body":"thing that, you know, we, we dog food, our,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1866.064,"endTime":1867.86,"body":"our product quite a lot."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1868.32,"endTime":1874.28,"body":"And you know, so if, if there are noticeable"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1868.32,"endTime":1874.28,"body":"latencies, we would try and go fix it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1874.32,"endTime":1881.432,"body":"I think we are all, everybody who's on the ENG"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1874.32,"endTime":1881.432,"body":"team are, you know, performance nerds and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1881.456,"endTime":1883.24,"body":"networking nerds and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1883.36,"endTime":1887.06,"body":"So if we can find an excuse to work on"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1883.36,"endTime":1887.06,"body":"bettering our performance,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1887.52,"endTime":1889.38,"body":"we'll probably do so."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1890.16,"endTime":1891.944,"body":"It's the right kind of approach for"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1890.16,"endTime":1891.944,"body":"sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1892.032,"endTime":1893.336,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1893.368,"endTime":1895.848,"body":"I think the, the, the last kind of really"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1895.904,"endTime":1899.704,"body":"major question that I know a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1895.904,"endTime":1899.704,"body":"have and it just hits on the core security"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1899.792,"endTime":1904.312,"body":"model here, like obviously the two party"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1899.792,"endTime":1904.312,"body":"system is an improvement because instead of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1904.336,"endTime":1908.034,"body":"just one entity being able to decide at will"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1904.336,"endTime":1908.034,"body":"how I'm going to log this traffic or,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1908.072,"endTime":1912.254,"body":"or I'm going to sell this data now there has"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1908.072,"endTime":1912.254,"body":"to be some collusion for that to happen."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1912.342,"endTime":1916.814,"body":"But obviously it is still possible for Obscura"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1912.342,"endTime":1916.814,"body":"and Mobot to collude."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1916.942,"endTime":1922.414,"body":"Is there any technical prevention there to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1916.942,"endTime":1922.414,"body":"prevent that collusion or is it just kind of a"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1922.422,"endTime":1928.334,"body":"system where you have to trust that these two"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1922.422,"endTime":1928.334,"body":"entities won't both collude knowingly to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1928.422,"endTime":1932.558,"body":"collect this data that could have been"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":1928.422,"endTime":1932.558,"body":"collected by just a traditional one party vpn?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1932.734,"endTime":1936.778,"body":"Right, so I'll sort of speak to it"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1932.734,"endTime":1936.778,"body":"first on the technical point."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1936.834,"endTime":1942.55,"body":"I'll speak to it sort of on the business side,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1936.834,"endTime":1942.55,"body":"I suppose the logical point."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1943.41,"endTime":1945.03,"body":"On a technical point,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1947.57,"endTime":1957.338,"body":"when you establish an obscura VPN tunnel,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1947.57,"endTime":1957.338,"body":"right, you actually establish a wireguard"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1957.434,"endTime":1963.832,"body":"connection, a wireguard session through"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1957.434,"endTime":1963.832,"body":"Obscura to Mullvad to Mullvad servers."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1963.976,"endTime":1969.912,"body":"And this session is end to end encrypted,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1963.976,"endTime":1969.912,"body":"which is why obscura, let's say in the middle,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1969.976,"endTime":1971.88,"body":"cannot see anything about it, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1972.0,"endTime":1981.016,"body":"And this session is established between your"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1972.0,"endTime":1981.016,"body":"wireguard key pair that's local and Mullvad's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1981.048,"endTime":1987.342,"body":"key pair that's on the servers and these keys"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1981.048,"endTime":1987.342,"body":"are on their server page."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1987.456,"endTime":1992.626,"body":"You can literally verify these keys are the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1987.456,"endTime":1992.626,"body":"keys that Mulvad is using."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1992.778,"endTime":1999.186,"body":"And on a technical standpoint, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1992.778,"endTime":1999.186,"body":"anybody, any admin anywhere that will give"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":1999.338,"endTime":2003.442,"body":"their wireguard private key to a new partner."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2003.506,"endTime":2005.858,"body":"That's a small, like, it just doesn't make any"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2005.914,"endTime":2008.786,"body":"sense, let's say from that standpoint."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2008.818,"endTime":2012.482,"body":"And so, you know, this is, this is a reason"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2008.818,"endTime":2012.482,"body":"why we designed our protocol."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2012.546,"endTime":2020.058,"body":"We could have gone full mask, which is, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2012.546,"endTime":2020.058,"body":"know, over HTTP 3, you know, doing their whole"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2020.154,"endTime":2024.298,"body":"custom encryption and things like that, and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2020.154,"endTime":2024.298,"body":"authentication and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2024.434,"endTime":2030.89,"body":"But we chose to go with sort of tunneling"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2024.434,"endTime":2030.89,"body":"wireguard over quic, our custom protocol, so"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2030.93,"endTime":2037.114,"body":"that it is easier for the user to verify, hey,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2030.93,"endTime":2037.114,"body":"I'm directly connected to Mulvat."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2037.162,"endTime":2040.208,"body":"This is not some like software tricking me or"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2037.162,"endTime":2040.208,"body":"anything like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2040.314,"endTime":2042.484,"body":"That's how it works now."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2042.652,"endTime":2044.148,"body":"You know, from, I think from a business"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2044.204,"endTime":2045.08,"body":"standpoint,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2045.42,"endTime":2047.14,"body":"I think it's, it's a good point."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2047.18,"endTime":2049.94,"body":"We, this is sort of why we were so careful in"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2049.98,"endTime":2052.612,"body":"choosing our first exit partner."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2052.676,"endTime":2052.9,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2052.94,"endTime":2058.756,"body":"We wanted someone who was well known for being"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2052.94,"endTime":2058.756,"body":"trustworthy."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2058.868,"endTime":2062.8,"body":"Right. And I think we, they would not."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2063.18,"endTime":2068.484,"body":"A company like Mulvad would not stake the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2063.18,"endTime":2068.484,"body":"reputation that they built over the years for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2068.492,"endTime":2070.164,"body":"a small new partner like us."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2070.252,"endTime":2072.244,"body":"You know, not to mention that they'd have to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2072.252,"endTime":2073.556,"body":"share their wireguard private keys."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2073.588,"endTime":2075.236,"body":"It just wouldn't make any sense."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2075.348,"endTime":2077.24,"body":"Is, is the real answer."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2077.58,"endTime":2080.884,"body":"Yeah, no, absolutely that, that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2077.58,"endTime":2080.884,"body":"collusion like there are so many incentives"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2080.932,"endTime":2081.652,"body":"against it."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2081.756,"endTime":2082.084,"body":"It's."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2082.132,"endTime":2082.884,"body":"Right, exactly."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2082.932,"endTime":2083.684,"body":"Unlikely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2083.812,"endTime":2085.348,"body":"Like it is important for people to understand"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2085.404,"endTime":2090.212,"body":"that it is possible but it's again one of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2085.404,"endTime":2090.212,"body":"those situations where there's just so much,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2090.396,"endTime":2094.948,"body":"so many reasons not to do so that it, it is a,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2090.396,"endTime":2094.948,"body":"an improvement over the single party system"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2095.004,"endTime":2098.934,"body":"where it's much different than Mullvad sharing"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2095.004,"endTime":2098.934,"body":"a private key with obscura."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2098.982,"endTime":2101.926,"body":"It would be just Movad saying we want this"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2098.982,"endTime":2101.926,"body":"traffic now."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2101.998,"endTime":2104.278,"body":"So it, it is a, it's a, it's a step beyond"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2101.998,"endTime":2104.278,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2104.334,"endTime":2107.318,"body":"Not trustless but trust minimizing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2107.494,"endTime":2108.806,"body":"Trust minimizing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2108.838,"endTime":2109.35,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2109.43,"endTime":2111.81,"body":"That is exactly what, what it is."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2112.27,"endTime":2116.966,"body":"Yeah. And then another piece of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2112.27,"endTime":2116.966,"body":"that trust minimization is clients being open"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2117.038,"endTime":2117.69,"body":"source."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2118.03,"endTime":2119.67,"body":"Are the clients that you publish right now."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2119.71,"endTime":2120.694,"body":"They're all open source."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2120.742,"endTime":2123.024,"body":"I wonder if reproducible as well since you're."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2123.182,"endTime":2124.972,"body":"They are all open source."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2125.116,"endTime":2130.428,"body":"I have gone through the painstaking journey of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2130.484,"endTime":2131.804,"body":"making them reproducible."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2131.852,"endTime":2134.172,"body":"That's on a local branch right now that I have"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2134.196,"endTime":2135.74,"body":"to, that I have to clean up."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2135.78,"endTime":2135.996,"body":"I'm."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2136.028,"endTime":2137.468,"body":"I'm very excited for when."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2137.604,"endTime":2140.956,"body":"Oh the, the Apple notarization and code"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2137.604,"endTime":2140.956,"body":"signing things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2141.028,"endTime":2141.692,"body":"Oh my lord."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2141.756,"endTime":2142.668,"body":"Yes they are."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2142.724,"endTime":2143.484,"body":"They are not."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2143.572,"endTime":2146.652,"body":"I think, I think Telegram attempted it and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2146.676,"endTime":2147.66,"body":"just gave up."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2147.78,"endTime":2152.272,"body":"I remember there was this blog post where they"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2147.78,"endTime":2152.272,"body":"were like we tried these things and it just"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2152.296,"endTime":2153.392,"body":"didn't work and we gave up."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2153.416,"endTime":2154.4,"body":"And I don't blame them."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2154.44,"endTime":2160.112,"body":"It like took a while so we'll want to have"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2154.44,"endTime":2160.112,"body":"reproducible client."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2160.176,"endTime":2163.424,"body":"I think client code should always be open"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2160.176,"endTime":2163.424,"body":"source."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2163.472,"endTime":2171.072,"body":"Especially for something as, as, as, as"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2163.472,"endTime":2171.072,"body":"critical as you know, a VPN that like you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2171.096,"endTime":2171.584,"body":"know, has."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2171.672,"endTime":2172.784,"body":"Handles all of your packets."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2172.832,"endTime":2173.04,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2173.08,"endTime":2174.592,"body":"God knows what, what, what it's doing with"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2174.616,"endTime":2174.944,"body":"them."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2175.032,"endTime":2177.22,"body":"It should always be open source."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2177.71,"endTime":2187.638,"body":"I think one interesting thing to note here is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2177.71,"endTime":2187.638,"body":"that on macOS and on Apple platforms, they"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2187.694,"endTime":2191.766,"body":"have this API called the Network Extensions"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2187.694,"endTime":2191.766,"body":"API, which is what we use."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2191.918,"endTime":2196.614,"body":"And this is how normally VPNs get set up."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2196.702,"endTime":2199.45,"body":"And with the Network Extensions API,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2201.71,"endTime":2208.106,"body":"our network extension that handles the packets"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2201.71,"endTime":2208.106,"body":"run separately from the app as what they call"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2208.178,"endTime":2209.706,"body":"a system extension."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2209.818,"endTime":2211.626,"body":"And it's very interesting on a technical"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2211.658,"endTime":2211.85,"body":"level."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2211.89,"endTime":2216.41,"body":"It runs as root, but it is sandboxed, which is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2216.53,"endTime":2219.83,"body":"a crazy thing that only macOS can do."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2220.13,"endTime":2220.842,"body":"It just."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2220.946,"endTime":2224.634,"body":"I think the UID is zero, but it can't access"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2224.722,"endTime":2226.51,"body":"any of your other files,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2227.49,"endTime":2228.778,"body":"which is nice, I think."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2228.834,"endTime":2229.002,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2229.026,"endTime":2233.306,"body":"Like, if you have a piece of code that's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2229.026,"endTime":2233.306,"body":"handling all your traffic and is somewhat"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2233.338,"endTime":2235.946,"body":"privileged, you want to lock that down as much"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2233.338,"endTime":2235.946,"body":"as possible."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2236.098,"endTime":2240.55,"body":"So I'm happy to see that macOS took steps on"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2236.098,"endTime":2240.55,"body":"that front,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2240.93,"endTime":2241.658,"body":"I think."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2241.794,"endTime":2244.682,"body":"I'm not sure that there's a great story for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2244.706,"endTime":2245.21,"body":"Linux there."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2245.25,"endTime":2246.762,"body":"I know that there's some progress being made"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2246.786,"endTime":2253.626,"body":"with Landlock and things like that, although I"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2246.786,"endTime":2253.626,"body":"think the Landlock API is still very nascent."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2253.658,"endTime":2259.03,"body":"I just saw an interesting thing called Land"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2253.658,"endTime":2259.03,"body":"Run the other day that helps with that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2259.95,"endTime":2266.678,"body":"But yes, we want to be as transparent with our"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2259.95,"endTime":2266.678,"body":"users as possible."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2266.814,"endTime":2270.47,"body":"And I think it's definitely important that our"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2266.814,"endTime":2270.47,"body":"client is open source."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2270.63,"endTime":2272.65,"body":"Yep. Yeah, yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2272.99,"endTime":2277.446,"body":"We've touched on a lot of different aspects of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2272.99,"endTime":2277.446,"body":"Obscura, but are there any that we didn't"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2277.478,"endTime":2281.718,"body":"touch on today that really excite you or that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2277.478,"endTime":2281.718,"body":"you really love about the design architecture"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2281.734,"endTime":2283.43,"body":"of how Obscura works?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2283.59,"endTime":2288.298,"body":"Yeah, I think we've covered most of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2283.59,"endTime":2288.298,"body":"what, what we talk about."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2288.434,"endTime":2290.79,"body":"I think there's always these,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2291.73,"endTime":2300.634,"body":"these small decisions that we make along the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2291.73,"endTime":2300.634,"body":"way in terms of improving user privacy."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2300.762,"endTime":2301.098,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2301.154,"endTime":2306.09,"body":"Small decisions that sometimes adds a lot of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2306.13,"endTime":2310.394,"body":"engineering work for us, but we're like, this"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2306.13,"endTime":2310.394,"body":"is what we're about."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2310.482,"endTime":2312.826,"body":"Like, we just gotta power through this."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2312.898,"endTime":2315.822,"body":"And if we're as good of engineers as we say we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2315.846,"endTime":2317.726,"body":"are, we got to be able to do this right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2317.878,"endTime":2320.078,"body":"For example, like, you know, for a lot of our"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2320.134,"endTime":2327.182,"body":"wait lists and things like that, we allow you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2320.134,"endTime":2327.182,"body":"to use PGP keys and submit your BGP key so we."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2327.206,"endTime":2329.89,"body":"That we can, you know, encrypt that message."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2330.31,"endTime":2335.518,"body":"I sort of wrote up the first version of that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2330.31,"endTime":2335.518,"body":"without implementing how I would send it"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2335.574,"endTime":2336.17,"body":"later."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2336.71,"endTime":2342.424,"body":"And when I, when I ended up having to send"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2336.71,"endTime":2342.424,"body":"things, there was a lot of Python scripts and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2342.512,"endTime":2345.896,"body":"trying to mangle things and trying to get the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2342.512,"endTime":2345.896,"body":"encryption correct."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2346.008,"endTime":2352.92,"body":"And a bunch of people, you know, who you are,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2346.008,"endTime":2352.92,"body":"submitted keys that were either expired or not"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2352.96,"endTime":2354.184,"body":"on any key server."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2354.232,"endTime":2356.936,"body":"So I was like, I don't even know what to do"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2354.232,"endTime":2356.936,"body":"with this."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2357.088,"endTime":2358.26,"body":"So we'll see."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2359.2,"endTime":2363.432,"body":"But yes, I mean, like, you know, at every turn"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2359.2,"endTime":2363.432,"body":"we try to think about how can we implement"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2363.496,"endTime":2367.26,"body":"this feature in a way that is private for the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2363.496,"endTime":2367.26,"body":"user."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2367.56,"endTime":2370.512,"body":"And it's been an exciting journey for sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2370.696,"endTime":2376.384,"body":"And of course, I think with what's exciting"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2370.696,"endTime":2376.384,"body":"about some of the features that we're going to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2376.392,"endTime":2382.048,"body":"be working on after we get more platform"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2376.392,"endTime":2382.048,"body":"support is that we'll be able to work on"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2382.104,"endTime":2385.696,"body":"interesting UX problems in the, in the VPN"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2382.104,"endTime":2385.696,"body":"space."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2385.768,"endTime":2387.936,"body":"For example, split tunneling."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2388.048,"endTime":2390.528,"body":"I think split tunneling is one of those things"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2390.664,"endTime":2399.702,"body":"that is really crucial for us to get to a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2390.664,"endTime":2399.702,"body":"place where we offer our users something that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2399.726,"endTime":2402.278,"body":"they could use without turning it on and off."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2402.334,"endTime":2406.87,"body":"And the normal finagling that you have to do"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2402.334,"endTime":2406.87,"body":"with VPNs."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2406.95,"endTime":2411.382,"body":"And so we're thinking about, okay, at what"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2406.95,"endTime":2411.382,"body":"abstraction level could we do this?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2411.486,"endTime":2417.894,"body":"Is this sort of on the addressing layer, on"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2411.486,"endTime":2417.894,"body":"sort of the socket layer in the browser with a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2417.902,"endTime":2418.824,"body":"different profile."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2418.942,"endTime":2421.236,"body":"So we're experimenting with that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2421.308,"endTime":2423.812,"body":"One thing that I forgot to talk about actually"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2423.916,"endTime":2431.044,"body":"about things that are interesting that we're"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2423.916,"endTime":2431.044,"body":"working on is with our obfuscation, we're"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2431.092,"endTime":2437.3,"body":"currently already doing really well in terms"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2431.092,"endTime":2437.3,"body":"of it's working in most network scenarios."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2437.46,"endTime":2444.82,"body":"There is one scenario in which there is still"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2437.46,"endTime":2444.82,"body":"some that we're still lacking in and that is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2444.86,"endTime":2453.532,"body":"when the network admin is really not the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2444.86,"endTime":2453.532,"body":"smartest and has said, well, maybe they know"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2453.556,"endTime":2454.06,"body":"what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2454.1,"endTime":2459.708,"body":"They're like only TCP over 480 and 443."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2459.844,"endTime":2461.548,"body":"There are networks like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2461.684,"endTime":2465.644,"body":"I have gone back and forth with a few users"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2461.684,"endTime":2465.644,"body":"where it's just like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2465.732,"endTime":2471.41,"body":"And it frustrates me to no end because then"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2465.732,"endTime":2471.41,"body":"you're not loading your websites quickly over"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2471.58,"endTime":2471.91,"body":"quick."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2471.95,"endTime":2473.69,"body":"And they, but anyway,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2474.11,"endTime":2481.222,"body":"we, you know, the reason why we went with QUIC"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2474.11,"endTime":2481.222,"body":"was to avoid the TCP over TCP meltdown, which"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2481.246,"endTime":2485.37,"body":"is why with a lot of TCP based VPNs you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2481.246,"endTime":2485.37,"body":"actually see a bunch of stuttering."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2486.43,"endTime":2492.886,"body":"What we're, what we've actually found is this"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2486.43,"endTime":2492.886,"body":"is sort of, this is again one of those"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2492.958,"endTime":2498.102,"body":"performance performance things that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2492.958,"endTime":2498.102,"body":"our engineers have found a good excuse to work"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2498.126,"endTime":2499.97,"body":"on and they're like, yes, let's do this."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2500.78,"endTime":2510.628,"body":"We found a way to tunnel packets over TCP in a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2500.78,"endTime":2510.628,"body":"cooperative way between the client and our"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2510.684,"endTime":2517.684,"body":"servers, such that we avoid TCP over TCP"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2510.684,"endTime":2517.684,"body":"meltdown by sort of dynamically resizing"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2517.732,"endTime":2519.844,"body":"buffers and dropping packets and things like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2517.732,"endTime":2519.844,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2519.932,"endTime":2524.228,"body":"So I think that's really exciting, let's say."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2524.364,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"And we'll make sure that,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2526.39,"endTime":2530.462,"body":"you know, we even work in situations where"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2526.39,"endTime":2530.462,"body":"they only allow TCP over 443."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2530.486,"endTime":2532.494,"body":"It's ridiculous, those nightmare"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2530.486,"endTime":2532.494,"body":"networks."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2532.542,"endTime":2532.862,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2532.926,"endTime":2533.774,"body":"Nightmare networks."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2533.822,"endTime":2536.878,"body":"Nightmare networks, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2533.822,"endTime":2536.878,"body":"absolutely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2537.054,"endTime":2541.166,"body":"Well, I've got three just rapid fire questions"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2537.054,"endTime":2541.166,"body":"for you and then we'll jump into some listener"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2541.198,"endTime":2541.534,"body":"questions."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2541.582,"endTime":2543.742,"body":"We had a good few come in, so we'll go through"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2543.766,"endTime":2544.222,"body":"those as well."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2544.246,"endTime":2548.766,"body":"But quick rapid fire ones that'll I think,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2544.246,"endTime":2548.766,"body":"head off a lot of the listener questions too,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2548.838,"endTime":2550.91,"body":"is the first one for me."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2551.03,"endTime":2553.678,"body":"Seems inevitable for a service like yours, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2553.734,"endTime":2555.45,"body":"when Monero support."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2556.04,"endTime":2556.78,"body":"Right,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2557.4,"endTime":2558.86,"body":"I knew these were coming."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2559.96,"endTime":2562.74,"body":"We don't like to give timeline estimates,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2563.32,"endTime":2568.62,"body":"but perhaps I can give sort of insight to the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2563.32,"endTime":2568.62,"body":"listeners on how we think about these things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2569.16,"endTime":2573.232,"body":"We have a million things that we want to do"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2569.16,"endTime":2573.232,"body":"and there's always the okay, well, how do we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2573.256,"endTime":2574.94,"body":"prioritize things?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2573.256,"endTime":2574.94,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2575.72,"endTime":2579.952,"body":"at the beginning we wanted to keep things"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2575.72,"endTime":2579.952,"body":"simple and launch with a simple thing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2579.976,"endTime":2581.742,"body":"And simple is easier to secure."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2581.896,"endTime":2586.322,"body":"But I've heard a lot of requests for Monero"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2586.466,"endTime":2591.842,"body":"from the users and I was just looking into it"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2586.466,"endTime":2591.842,"body":"a few weeks back, sort of the logistical"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2591.906,"endTime":2595.906,"body":"complexities of supporting it doesn't seem to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2591.906,"endTime":2595.906,"body":"be that much."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2596.058,"endTime":2598.002,"body":"So I'm going to continue looking into it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2598.026,"endTime":2600.402,"body":"I think it is inevitable that we add Monero"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2600.466,"endTime":2607.634,"body":"payment support to Obscura and I look forward"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2600.466,"endTime":2607.634,"body":"to announcing it the day that we do."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2607.802,"endTime":2608.466,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2608.498,"endTime":2610.034,"body":"Let me know if I can help or connect you with"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2610.042,"endTime":2611.73,"body":"anybody in the Monero community for that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2611.77,"endTime":2613.586,"body":"But I know that there's going to be a lot of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2613.658,"endTime":2616.754,"body":"Monero people who will be flocking to Obscura"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2613.658,"endTime":2616.754,"body":"as soon as that's enabled."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2616.802,"endTime":2618.47,"body":"So it'll be a good driver."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2619.21,"endTime":2620.51,"body":"We'll get them to you."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2621.21,"endTime":2622.91,"body":"Second rapid fire question."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2623.21,"endTime":2626.002,"body":"Auto Connect at launch is like the only"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2626.106,"endTime":2629.538,"body":"critical thing that's missing for me in"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2626.106,"endTime":2629.538,"body":"Obscura right now."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2629.674,"endTime":2631.55,"body":"Any idea on when that's coming?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2632.09,"endTime":2634.11,"body":"That is coming."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2634.63,"endTime":2637.134,"body":"That's coming relatively soon."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2637.302,"endTime":2641.422,"body":"So we wanted to do Auto Connect at launch in a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2641.446,"endTime":2648.13,"body":"way that is secure and to the best of our"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2641.446,"endTime":2648.13,"body":"abilities,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2650.63,"endTime":2652.462,"body":"done in a way that is reliable."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2652.526,"endTime":2652.702,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2652.726,"endTime":2657.102,"body":"I think there's a certain amount of polish"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2652.726,"endTime":2657.102,"body":"that our users expect from Obscura and things"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2657.126,"endTime":2657.85,"body":"like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2658.55,"endTime":2661.096,"body":"So we're working on that right now."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2661.278,"endTime":2664.564,"body":"We're sort of re architecting how we do"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2664.652,"endTime":2666.98,"body":"internal state handling within our."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2667.1,"endTime":2668.932,"body":"Within our network extension."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2669.076,"endTime":2671.588,"body":"And so we will have that pretty soon."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2671.644,"endTime":2677.988,"body":"And I think that's quite an important feature"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2671.644,"endTime":2677.988,"body":"to have, let's say, for people."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2678.124,"endTime":2682.26,"body":"And certainly one of our engineers has been"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2678.124,"endTime":2682.26,"body":"complaining about it as well."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2682.3,"endTime":2683.412,"body":"So you can be sure that, that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2683.436,"endTime":2686.5,"body":"Will definitely happen as long as"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2683.436,"endTime":2686.5,"body":"someone inside is unhappy."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2686.58,"endTime":2686.878,"body":"It's."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2686.924,"endTime":2687.978,"body":"It's definitely, oh, 100%."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2688.034,"endTime":2689.594,"body":"We, we are the users."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2689.642,"endTime":2693.962,"body":"That, that's one of the great things about"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2689.642,"endTime":2693.962,"body":"building this is like we are the, the exact"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2694.026,"endTime":2694.474,"body":"users."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2694.522,"endTime":2696.634,"body":"So the complaints will come from inside."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2696.762,"endTime":2699.354,"body":"Yeah. And that's how I know the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2696.762,"endTime":2699.354,"body":"best product's gonna get made, because I"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2699.362,"endTime":2700.41,"body":"definitely experienced that as well."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2700.45,"endTime":2702.074,"body":"When you're passionate about what you build"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2702.162,"endTime":2705.818,"body":"and you actually use what you build, that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2702.162,"endTime":2705.818,"body":"product is only gonna get better because"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2705.954,"endTime":2707.85,"body":"you're gonna hit the pain points and you're"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2705.954,"endTime":2707.85,"body":"gonna be the,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2707.89,"endTime":2711.946,"body":"the most motivated of anyone to, to actually"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2707.89,"endTime":2711.946,"body":"solve them or improve on them."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2712.098,"endTime":2712.522,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2712.586,"endTime":2713.258,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2713.434,"endTime":2715.018,"body":"And then just one platform"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2713.434,"endTime":2715.018,"body":"question."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2715.074,"endTime":2718.89,"body":"I know there's some more that we'll get in the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2715.074,"endTime":2718.89,"body":"listener questions, but Android is the main"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2718.93,"endTime":2720.75,"body":"gap for me since I don't use iOS,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2721.17,"endTime":2725.802,"body":"so I know that there's tons of complexity that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2721.17,"endTime":2725.802,"body":"comes in adding new platforms, but just"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2725.826,"endTime":2728.778,"body":"curious what your thoughts are around Android"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2725.826,"endTime":2728.778,"body":"support broadly."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2728.954,"endTime":2730.03,"body":"Yeah, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2730.85,"endTime":2732.298,"body":"we definitely want Android support."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2732.354,"endTime":2735.962,"body":"I think we want mobile platforms because I"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2735.986,"endTime":2741.558,"body":"think there are more use cases for VPNs when"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2735.986,"endTime":2741.558,"body":"you're out and about traveling, let's say, in"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2741.694,"endTime":2743.702,"body":"public networks and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2743.806,"endTime":2745.57,"body":"We've made our,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2746.83,"endTime":2755.142,"body":"you know, with a vpn, it's sort of not as easy"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2746.83,"endTime":2755.142,"body":"as other apps in that, you know, there's a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2755.166,"endTime":2760.774,"body":"system layer that you have to interact with"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2755.166,"endTime":2760.774,"body":"and on every platform that is somewhat"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2760.822,"endTime":2761.318,"body":"different."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2761.454,"endTime":2767.174,"body":"You know, we've architected our infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2761.454,"endTime":2767.174,"body":"such sort of the different modules of our code"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2767.222,"endTime":2770.662,"body":"such that it is more or less reusable across"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2767.222,"endTime":2770.662,"body":"the platforms."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2770.726,"endTime":2777.67,"body":"But there are still some integration problems"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2770.726,"endTime":2777.67,"body":"to do what I'm really happy about with."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2777.79,"endTime":2781.862,"body":"But we'll definitely do Android because all of"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2777.79,"endTime":2781.862,"body":"our engineers are on Android and have been"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2781.886,"endTime":2783.05,"body":"complaining forever."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2784.75,"endTime":2789.478,"body":"And I will say that right now we're working on"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2784.75,"endTime":2789.478,"body":"a wireguard configuration generator."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2789.654,"endTime":2794.412,"body":"Now, of course, with that wireguard"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2789.654,"endTime":2794.412,"body":"configuration generator, you do get the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2794.436,"endTime":2800.572,"body":"privacy of you're not able to correlate your"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2794.436,"endTime":2800.572,"body":"IP with your Internet traffic, but the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2800.596,"endTime":2805.276,"body":"obfuscation side is sort of lost because, hey,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2800.596,"endTime":2805.276,"body":"it's vanilla wireguard,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2805.308,"endTime":2808.492,"body":"what can you do?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2805.308,"endTime":2808.492,"body":"But it should be able to serve most people who"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2808.516,"endTime":2809.76,"body":"are on Android."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2810.26,"endTime":2815.164,"body":"But one of the other things I want to say is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2810.26,"endTime":2815.164,"body":"one of the things I was really happy to see"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2815.252,"endTime":2821.204,"body":"was a bunch of users actually reached out to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2815.252,"endTime":2821.204,"body":"me and was like, hey, I know you're going to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2821.212,"endTime":2824.276,"body":"be on X platform Android, let's say."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2824.348,"endTime":2829.812,"body":"And here are all the pitfalls with integrating"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2824.348,"endTime":2829.812,"body":"with Android's VPN subsystem and things like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2829.836,"endTime":2829.972,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2829.996,"endTime":2831.012,"body":"I'm like, thank you."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2831.036,"endTime":2832.8,"body":"You just saved me, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2833.26,"endTime":2836.276,"body":"a few days of engineering time trying to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2833.26,"endTime":2836.276,"body":"figure this out."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2836.348,"endTime":2838.036,"body":"So I'm happy."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2838.228,"endTime":2840.308,"body":"Please reach out if you have insights about"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2840.444,"endTime":2842.356,"body":"VPN integration on different platforms."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2842.388,"endTime":2843.076,"body":"For sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2843.228,"endTime":2844.084,"body":"Yeah. And I definitely."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2844.132,"endTime":2846.782,"body":"I do also just want to say, like, when you"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2846.966,"endTime":2851.742,"body":"actually build stuff like this, you realize"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2846.966,"endTime":2851.742,"body":"that it's impossible to ship everything that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2851.766,"endTime":2854.078,"body":"you want right away in a really good state."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2854.134,"endTime":2858.942,"body":"So, like, I. I appreciate kind of being behind"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2854.134,"endTime":2858.942,"body":"the scenes in a different way in the app and"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2858.966,"endTime":2859.566,"body":"privacy scene."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2859.598,"endTime":2862.446,"body":"I appreciate that y'all went with a relatively"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2862.478,"endTime":2866.782,"body":"straightforward MVP on one platform, and you"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2862.478,"endTime":2866.782,"body":"really nailed it in the mvp."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2866.846,"endTime":2867.39,"body":"Like, the."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2867.43,"endTime":2869.422,"body":"The Mac experience has been fantastic from day"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2869.446,"endTime":2873.342,"body":"one, and I think that shows that y'all"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2869.446,"endTime":2873.342,"body":"understood if we tried to do everything at"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2873.366,"endTime":2876.624,"body":"once, we're going to overreach and there are"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2873.366,"endTime":2876.624,"body":"going to be things that suffer."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2876.672,"endTime":2878.144,"body":"And I think that that kind of."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2878.232,"endTime":2881.088,"body":"That focus showed for me in the initial launch"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2881.144,"endTime":2884.16,"body":"and gives me, again, just good hope that y'all"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2881.144,"endTime":2884.16,"body":"are going to do a really good job on other"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2884.2,"endTime":2886.576,"body":"platforms as well as you have time."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2886.728,"endTime":2889.52,"body":"Yeah, I super appreciate that,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2886.728,"endTime":2889.52,"body":"Seth."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2889.6,"endTime":2898.768,"body":"I think one thing I want to bring up is I"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2889.6,"endTime":2898.768,"body":"think it's a shame that in the ordinary"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2898.864,"endTime":2900.46,"body":"consumer's mind,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2901.31,"endTime":2908.086,"body":"there's been this false dichotomy that's been"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2901.31,"endTime":2908.086,"body":"made of between, you know, privacy products"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2908.238,"endTime":2911.462,"body":"and usable products in that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2911.646,"endTime":2914.182,"body":"And I think, you know, this was more, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2914.206,"endTime":2920.87,"body":"know, last or last, last generation of privacy"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2914.206,"endTime":2920.87,"body":"products in that consumers sort of have this"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2920.91,"endTime":2925.046,"body":"thing of like, oh, if it's going to be the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2920.91,"endTime":2925.046,"body":"more private alternative,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2925.158,"endTime":2929.842,"body":"it probably is much harder to use than the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2925.158,"endTime":2929.842,"body":"other way around."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2930.026,"endTime":2935.122,"body":"And I think, you know, the privacy tech"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2930.026,"endTime":2935.122,"body":"industry needs to come together, and I think,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2935.146,"endTime":2938.354,"body":"you know, Signal started these things and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2935.146,"endTime":2938.354,"body":"things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2938.522,"endTime":2943.106,"body":"It needs to come together and make sure that"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2938.522,"endTime":2943.106,"body":"that is not the case, because really, we can"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2943.178,"endTime":2949.57,"body":"solve a lot of these problems if we just"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2943.178,"endTime":2949.57,"body":"invested in the tech, the cryptography, the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2949.69,"endTime":2951.426,"body":"different ways that we do things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2951.578,"endTime":2956.578,"body":"And that's one of the things that we hope to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2951.578,"endTime":2956.578,"body":"drive forward as well."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2956.634,"endTime":2962.966,"body":"And that privacy products can also be the most"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2956.634,"endTime":2962.966,"body":"usable product and that put together."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2963.038,"endTime":2964.166,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2964.198,"endTime":2966.022,"body":"You shouldn't suffer just because you are"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2966.046,"endTime":2967.174,"body":"using a privacy tool."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2967.262,"endTime":2969.51,"body":"And even more than that, you should get better"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2969.55,"endTime":2972.774,"body":"privacy than you realize, just because it's"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2969.55,"endTime":2972.774,"body":"the way that something's architected."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2972.822,"endTime":2974.15,"body":"Like, that's the, I think, the."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2974.19,"endTime":2975.622,"body":"The golden goose, so to say."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2975.646,"endTime":2978.966,"body":"And the privacy space is something where"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2975.646,"endTime":2978.966,"body":"people don't even have to realize that it's"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2978.998,"endTime":2980.15,"body":"privacy preserving."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2980.31,"endTime":2981.126,"body":"And yet it is."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2981.198,"endTime":2981.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":2981.622,"endTime":2982.25,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2982.83,"endTime":2983.414,"body":"Awesome."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2983.462,"endTime":2985.382,"body":"Well, that wraps up what I have for you, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2985.406,"endTime":2988.508,"body":"we do have some listener questions we can dive"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2985.406,"endTime":2988.508,"body":"through a little bit."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2988.614,"endTime":2992.976,"body":"Um, I think some of these we already answered,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2988.614,"endTime":2992.976,"body":"so I'll skip some and I'll just, I'll drop"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2993.008,"endTime":2994.432,"body":"people who did ask these questions."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2994.496,"endTime":2997.088,"body":"Links to the right timestamp in the episode."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2997.184,"endTime":2999.328,"body":"Um, but one of the, I think good questions"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2999.344,"endTime":3004.656,"body":"that was asked by Mark Molly on X was he was"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":2999.344,"endTime":3004.656,"body":"curious about knowing what the biggest"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3004.688,"endTime":3009.168,"body":"technical challenge you had was building it,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3004.688,"endTime":3009.168,"body":"and what challenges you anticipate facing next"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3009.224,"endTime":3011.488,"body":"in this kind of privacy arms race."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3011.664,"endTime":3013.22,"body":"Yeah, um,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3013.64,"endTime":3016.02,"body":"the biggest technical challenge,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3017.1,"endTime":3023.492,"body":"I think this is sort of a statement about open"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3017.1,"endTime":3023.492,"body":"and closed platforms is."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3023.676,"endTime":3029.028,"body":"I think the biggest technical challenge was"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3023.676,"endTime":3029.028,"body":"not really a technical challenge, but it was"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3029.084,"endTime":3032.04,"body":"integrating with Apple's APIs."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3032.94,"endTime":3040.26,"body":"Apple's APIs are like, they're well"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3032.94,"endTime":3040.26,"body":"documented, but just not documented in a way"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3040.3,"endTime":3043.076,"body":"that is that useful to the developer."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3043.188,"endTime":3046.692,"body":"And you inevitably run into corner cases where"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3046.716,"endTime":3052.756,"body":"you have to go to the developer forums and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3046.716,"endTime":3052.756,"body":"then somewhere some guy from two years ago"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3052.908,"endTime":3056.452,"body":"said something that, that helps you along."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3056.636,"endTime":3062.756,"body":"And, and I think it speaks to the fact that,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3056.636,"endTime":3062.756,"body":"you know, these closed platforms, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3062.788,"endTime":3067.684,"body":"they have huge innovations, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3062.788,"endTime":3067.684,"body":"Like icloud private relay, like the different"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3067.772,"endTime":3072.982,"body":"ways of sandboxing on macOS that's good for"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3067.772,"endTime":3072.982,"body":"security, good for privacy and things like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3073.006,"endTime":3073.57,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3074.19,"endTime":3079.942,"body":"But these, these APIs are really hard to work"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3074.19,"endTime":3079.942,"body":"with, really opaque."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3080.086,"endTime":3083.446,"body":"When it fails, it's really hard to discern"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3080.086,"endTime":3083.446,"body":"what's going on."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3083.518,"endTime":3086.054,"body":"In fact, we had a few bugs where."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3086.222,"endTime":3091.878,"body":"I mean, I was desperate enough that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3086.222,"endTime":3091.878,"body":"I was attending the IETF at the time."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3091.934,"endTime":3092.15,"body":"The."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3092.19,"endTime":3093.27,"body":"The IETF conference."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3093.35,"endTime":3097.73,"body":"The IETF is the body that makes Internet"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3093.35,"endTime":3097.73,"body":"standards like HTTP 3 and Qwik and all those."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3098.5,"endTime":3102.636,"body":"And funnily enough, it was just a bug that we"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3098.5,"endTime":3102.636,"body":"really couldn't figure out."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3102.708,"endTime":3107.628,"body":"And I knew that someone from Apple was the guy"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3102.708,"endTime":3107.628,"body":"that would know the answer."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3107.724,"endTime":3113.48,"body":"And so I just waited in front of the only"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3107.724,"endTime":3113.48,"body":"escalator in the conference for him."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3114.02,"endTime":3118.924,"body":"I think I bothered a couple people that, like,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3114.02,"endTime":3118.924,"body":"kind of looked like him, but, like, wasn't"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3118.972,"endTime":3119.516,"body":"him."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3119.668,"endTime":3122.092,"body":"But I finally, like, saw him and I just like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3122.116,"endTime":3124.694,"body":"ran up to him and be like, hey, like, we have"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3122.116,"endTime":3124.694,"body":"this problem."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3124.812,"endTime":3128.69,"body":"And he finally was like, okay, look for these"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3124.812,"endTime":3128.69,"body":"logs, look for this."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3128.81,"endTime":3130.898,"body":"And, you know, showed us how to do it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3131.034,"endTime":3132.962,"body":"And so these were the, these were the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3132.986,"endTime":3133.778,"body":"challenges."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3133.954,"endTime":3140.13,"body":"In terms of the other stuff, I think, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3133.954,"endTime":3140.13,"body":"know, we have a really superb engineering team"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3140.25,"endTime":3146.082,"body":"who's able to truck forward, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3140.25,"endTime":3146.082,"body":"Like, if there is a problem with our"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3146.106,"endTime":3150.802,"body":"dependencies, we're not up beyond you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3146.106,"endTime":3150.802,"body":"just patching our dependencies and looking at"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3150.826,"endTime":3151.778,"body":"things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3151.914,"endTime":3154.77,"body":"It is when there is the opaque."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3155.27,"endTime":3161.054,"body":"I think I was talking to one of the guys at"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3155.27,"endTime":3161.054,"body":"Google who worked with the APIs, he said it"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3161.062,"endTime":3161.342,"body":"this way."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3161.366,"endTime":3164.286,"body":"I like this analogy of the Apple platform is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3164.358,"endTime":3167.55,"body":"you have the XNU kernel which is open source."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3167.63,"endTime":3172.67,"body":"Like I actually didn't fully grasp that at"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3167.63,"endTime":3172.67,"body":"first, but the XNU kernel is fully open"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3172.71,"endTime":3176.494,"body":"source, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3172.71,"endTime":3176.494,"body":"And then you have the APIs that the apple"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3176.542,"endTime":3178.81,"body":"opens you, that gives you."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3179.2,"endTime":3181.784,"body":"And then you have this fog of war in the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3179.2,"endTime":3181.784,"body":"middle."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3181.832,"endTime":3184.904,"body":"Like, you know, if you play a strategy game,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3181.832,"endTime":3184.904,"body":"there's fog of war, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3184.992,"endTime":3188.872,"body":"Fog of war in the middle of how they, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3184.992,"endTime":3188.872,"body":"know, interact with each other that you have"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3188.896,"endTime":3189.752,"body":"no idea about."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3189.856,"endTime":3196.936,"body":"And all you can do is twiddle the APIs on the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3189.856,"endTime":3196.936,"body":"API end and see what happens on the XNU end."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3197.088,"endTime":3199.144,"body":"And so I like that analogy."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3199.192,"endTime":3201.576,"body":"And you know, it's sometimes the problems with"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3201.648,"endTime":3203.384,"body":"closed platforms for sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3203.552,"endTime":3205.64,"body":"Yeah, definitely, definitely"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3203.552,"endTime":3205.64,"body":"understand that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3205.68,"endTime":3207.722,"body":"It makes things, makes things interesting"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3205.68,"endTime":3207.722,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3207.816,"endTime":3213.238,"body":"Uh, next listener question was from basicsnolo"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3207.816,"endTime":3213.238,"body":"and he basically wanted to know about port"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3213.294,"endTime":3216.406,"body":"forwarding coming to, coming to Obscura."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3216.438,"endTime":3219.67,"body":"He specifically said for torrenting, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3216.438,"endTime":3219.67,"body":"there's a lot of other use cases for port"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3219.71,"endTime":3223.158,"body":"forwarding like self hosting at home while"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3219.71,"endTime":3223.158,"body":"also using a vpn, that sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3223.214,"endTime":3225.654,"body":"So just curious on if port forwarding's on"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3223.214,"endTime":3225.654,"body":"your roadmap."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3225.702,"endTime":3228.97,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I, I think we're,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3229.39,"endTime":3233.83,"body":"we, we're always on the lookout for different"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3229.39,"endTime":3233.83,"body":"ways to do stuff and, and of course port"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3233.87,"endTime":3239.082,"body":"forwarding is one of those things that people"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3233.87,"endTime":3239.082,"body":"request and rightfully request for peer to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3239.106,"endTime":3240.27,"body":"peer file sharing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3241.25,"endTime":3247.05,"body":"We, as of right now, we can't do it because"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3241.25,"endTime":3247.05,"body":"Mulvad doesn't have support for port"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3247.09,"endTime":3247.722,"body":"forwarding."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3247.786,"endTime":3249.93,"body":"And at the end of the day what is exiting out"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3249.97,"endTime":3253.07,"body":"to the Internet is Mullvad's servers."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3255.09,"endTime":3262.058,"body":"And I think that it is correct in that when"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3255.09,"endTime":3262.058,"body":"you allow port forwarding there is the problem"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3262.114,"endTime":3265.94,"body":"of abuse, right?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3262.114,"endTime":3265.94,"body":"It is very, you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3266.4,"endTime":3270.552,"body":"and we don't want to know anything about the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3266.4,"endTime":3270.552,"body":"user."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3270.616,"endTime":3275.592,"body":"So we're not trying to like go visit"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3270.616,"endTime":3275.592,"body":"everybody's open port and try to snoop on what"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3275.616,"endTime":3277.512,"body":"they do and all those things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3277.616,"endTime":3279.54,"body":"So it's a fine balance to make."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3280.0,"endTime":3285.736,"body":"I think there's something to be done, let's"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3280.0,"endTime":3285.736,"body":"say of a, of a hybrid, you know, consumer VPN"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3285.768,"endTime":3290.882,"body":"versus tail scale where you know, if you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3285.768,"endTime":3290.882,"body":"connect it on your home device or your home"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3290.906,"endTime":3295.442,"body":"server or whatever, you know, you can connect"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3290.906,"endTime":3295.442,"body":"to Obscura using your phone and be able to go,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3295.546,"endTime":3298.11,"body":"go visit Your home server and things like"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3295.546,"endTime":3298.11,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3298.65,"endTime":3302.514,"body":"Yeah, I think that's something that we'll"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3298.65,"endTime":3302.514,"body":"definitely look into in the future."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3302.682,"endTime":3306.274,"body":"Yeah. And I know Mulvot has some"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3302.682,"endTime":3306.274,"body":"sort of partnership with Tailscale as well, so"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3306.282,"endTime":3310.93,"body":"I wonder if there's maybe even an easier route"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3306.282,"endTime":3310.93,"body":"there because of that, to integrate that."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3310.97,"endTime":3315.026,"body":"And like you said, like, I wasn't going to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3310.97,"endTime":3315.026,"body":"spoil the question, but unfortunately Mullvad"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3315.058,"endTime":3317.858,"body":"did have to kill off their port forwarding"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3315.058,"endTime":3317.858,"body":"because of so much abuse."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3317.954,"endTime":3322.77,"body":"It's just kind of one of the downsides of the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3317.954,"endTime":3322.77,"body":"Internet is bad people do bad things, even"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3322.81,"endTime":3323.602,"body":"with these tools."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3323.666,"endTime":3326.066,"body":"And so good people suffer because sometimes"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3326.098,"endTime":3329.186,"body":"that has to be cut out so that you can still"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3326.098,"endTime":3329.186,"body":"offer a product."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3329.338,"endTime":3333.35,"body":"So I know that that's a really hard thing to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3329.338,"endTime":3333.35,"body":"offer in the space, but good insight."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3333.69,"endTime":3334.83,"body":"We've actually,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3335.29,"endTime":3336.21,"body":"here's a funny thing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3336.25,"endTime":3340.978,"body":"We've actually architected Obscura, at least"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3341.034,"endTime":3349.112,"body":"on macOS, such that it works with Tailscale,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3341.034,"endTime":3349.112,"body":"So you can have both Obscura and Tailscale on"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3349.216,"endTime":3352.344,"body":"and ping your phone or, you know, do, do"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3349.216,"endTime":3352.344,"body":"whatever."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3352.472,"endTime":3356.168,"body":"So if that's something that you're into, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3352.472,"endTime":3356.168,"body":"know, try it, try it out."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3356.224,"endTime":3359.144,"body":"And that's something that we definitely"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3356.224,"endTime":3359.144,"body":"support."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3359.312,"endTime":3363.16,"body":"Yeah, I can confirm that works"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3359.312,"endTime":3363.16,"body":"because I use Tailscale for all of my hosting."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3363.24,"endTime":3365.752,"body":"So I constantly have Tailscale and Obscura"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3363.24,"endTime":3365.752,"body":"connected."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3365.816,"endTime":3369.176,"body":"And that was actually one of the main things I"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3365.816,"endTime":3369.176,"body":"was curious about with Obscura."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3369.208,"endTime":3371.96,"body":"Cause with some other VPN providers, their"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3369.208,"endTime":3371.96,"body":"apps don't handle that well."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3372.0,"endTime":3373.748,"body":"And Obscura just worked from day one."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3373.804,"endTime":3376.356,"body":"So again, I'm not paid, I'm not paid to shill"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3376.388,"endTime":3377.22,"body":"this, but it's just."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3377.26,"endTime":3378.8,"body":"Has been a really nice experience."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3379.34,"endTime":3383.012,"body":"I, I am so glad because like, I,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3379.34,"endTime":3383.012,"body":"you know, we put effort into this and I was"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3383.036,"endTime":3385.876,"body":"like, I don't know, is, is this actually going"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3383.036,"endTime":3385.876,"body":"to make anybody happy?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3385.908,"endTime":3386.948,"body":"And it seems like it does."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3387.004,"endTime":3388.324,"body":"So very happy to hear."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3388.412,"endTime":3390.5,"body":"Even if it's just me, it was worth"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3388.412,"endTime":3390.5,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3390.54,"endTime":3390.932,"body":"It was worth it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3390.956,"endTime":3391.748,"body":"Yeah, it was worth it."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3391.804,"endTime":3392.52,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3394.38,"endTime":3395.22,"body":"Another good one."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3395.26,"endTime":3398.372,"body":"And kind of a common tool that VPN providers"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3398.436,"endTime":3403.154,"body":"support supply is add or tracker blocking,"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3398.436,"endTime":3403.154,"body":"basically custom DNS provided by the VPN"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3403.202,"endTime":3403.91,"body":"provider."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3404.25,"endTime":3406.45,"body":"Mullvad obviously has this already."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3406.57,"endTime":3409.41,"body":"Is that something that y'all plan to enable or"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3409.45,"endTime":3410.434,"body":"add to."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3410.602,"endTime":3410.994,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3411.042,"endTime":3412.45,"body":"To Obscura at some point?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3412.57,"endTime":3413.362,"body":"I. I believe so."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3413.386,"endTime":3415.23,"body":"I mean, right now,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3415.93,"endTime":3417.362,"body":"I think our, our."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3417.546,"endTime":3419.922,"body":"With. With our current implementation, this is"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3419.946,"endTime":3421.826,"body":"not sort of a. A technical difficulty."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3421.858,"endTime":3422.706,"body":"It's sort of how."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3422.778,"endTime":3429.73,"body":"How we put it on the ui and we can certainly"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3422.778,"endTime":3429.73,"body":"allow you to use Mole Ads, ad blocking,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3430.07,"endTime":3431.934,"body":"DNS servers and things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3432.022,"endTime":3433.95,"body":"So that's definitely something that we will"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3433.99,"endTime":3434.57,"body":"do."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3434.95,"endTime":3443.79,"body":"I think philosophically for me though, ad"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3434.95,"endTime":3443.79,"body":"blocking is better done at a higher level in"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3443.83,"endTime":3450.57,"body":"that when you do DNS ad blocking, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3443.83,"endTime":3450.57,"body":"it's too much of a sledgehammer to things."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3451.19,"endTime":3456.51,"body":"Whereas if you go up a level and use things"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3451.19,"endTime":3456.51,"body":"like UBlock origin, even though I know that on"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3456.55,"endTime":3457.598,"body":"Chrome now they."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3457.734,"endTime":3460.302,"body":"The manifest v3, all of those things, if you"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3460.326,"endTime":3465.198,"body":"use something like UBlock origin, I think"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3460.326,"endTime":3465.198,"body":"that's a better way to go about doing things"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3465.254,"endTime":3469.13,"body":"and may confuse the JavaScript on the page a"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3465.254,"endTime":3469.13,"body":"little less."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3469.43,"endTime":3471.998,"body":"But yes, we plan to support this for sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3472.134,"endTime":3475.454,"body":"Yeah. I think where it specifically"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3472.134,"endTime":3475.454,"body":"comes in handy is when you're talking about"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3475.542,"endTime":3478.654,"body":"like a whole home vpn, like where you're doing"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3475.542,"endTime":3478.654,"body":"it at router level."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3478.742,"endTime":3479.038,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3479.094,"endTime":3482.19,"body":"It's really nice to have DNS thin"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3479.094,"endTime":3482.19,"body":"because like smart TVs and stuff like that"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3482.23,"endTime":3486.522,"body":"where you don't have the kind of client side"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3482.23,"endTime":3486.522,"body":"blocking available, you can still get a lot of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3486.546,"endTime":3487.082,"body":"blocking there."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3487.106,"endTime":3491.786,"body":"So I think that's where it's more useful than"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3487.106,"endTime":3491.786,"body":"like mobile or desktop platforms."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3491.818,"endTime":3492.714,"body":"But we'll definitely be."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3492.802,"endTime":3493.706,"body":"That's actually a great idea."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3493.738,"endTime":3499.082,"body":"I should add the DNS option to our Mulvad to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3499.106,"endTime":3501.802,"body":"our Wireguard config generator that we're"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3499.106,"endTime":3501.802,"body":"building right now."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3501.826,"endTime":3502.874,"body":"That's actually a great idea."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3502.922,"endTime":3505.11,"body":"Yes, yeah, yeah, that would be nice"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3502.922,"endTime":3505.11,"body":"to have for sure."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3506.05,"endTime":3509.702,"body":"Well, last listener question that I have for"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3506.05,"endTime":3509.702,"body":"you is from Everything Sats."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3509.786,"endTime":3513.294,"body":"Uh, and it is another, another platform"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3509.786,"endTime":3513.294,"body":"question which was inevitable."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3513.342,"endTime":3517.822,"body":"I won't tie you down to any timelines, um, but"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3513.342,"endTime":3517.822,"body":"maybe just phrasing it this way, he asked"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3517.846,"endTime":3520.894,"body":"about Windows Linux support, but maybe just to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3517.846,"endTime":3520.894,"body":"phrase it as."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3520.982,"endTime":3526.334,"body":"Are you prioritizing mobile specifically"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3520.982,"endTime":3526.334,"body":"Android and iOS obviously, and then desktop."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3526.382,"endTime":3529.85,"body":"How are you prioritizing those two in terms of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3526.382,"endTime":3529.85,"body":"like what you're trying to bring out first?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3530.23,"endTime":3531.09,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3531.83,"endTime":3538.804,"body":"I think we're prioritizing whatever we hear"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3531.83,"endTime":3538.804,"body":"the most from our users."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3538.852,"endTime":3541.156,"body":"I think that's the most important thing."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3541.308,"endTime":3544.932,"body":"We hear a lot of want for the iOS device and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3544.956,"endTime":3550.8,"body":"of course the iOS platform is similar to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3544.956,"endTime":3550.8,"body":"macros and that's why we're doing that next."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3551.26,"endTime":3554.76,"body":"Now for Windows and Linux,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3556.06,"endTime":3564.052,"body":"Linux is easier for us to do because we were"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3556.06,"endTime":3564.052,"body":"all Linux nerds and we run home servers and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3564.076,"endTime":3564.74,"body":"things like that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3564.78,"endTime":3568.256,"body":"And, and I think for Linux what we'll likely"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3568.328,"endTime":3574.112,"body":"see is first a CLI version so that we can get"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3568.328,"endTime":3574.112,"body":"something out really quick and then a GUI."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3574.176,"endTime":3579.344,"body":"Certainly GUI's on Linux there's a whole, I"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3574.176,"endTime":3579.344,"body":"don't know if you're familiar, there's a whole"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3579.392,"endTime":3585.664,"body":"fight about GTK versus QT and libidwaita and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3579.392,"endTime":3585.664,"body":"client side declarations and Wayland and exit."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3585.792,"endTime":3588.176,"body":"It's quite a fragmented ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3588.288,"endTime":3589.6,"body":"Linux fragmented."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3589.68,"endTime":3592.38,"body":"No, no, no, no way."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3593.0,"endTime":3597.98,"body":"But of course, you know, we're Linux nerds, so"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3593.0,"endTime":3597.98,"body":"when we do do the gui, we will do it right."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3598.44,"endTime":3599.78,"body":"For Windows,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3600.28,"endTime":3601.58,"body":"we actually,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3602.12,"endTime":3607.62,"body":"we. This is one of the platforms where we had"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3602.12,"endTime":3607.62,"body":"a guy reach out who was one of the users."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3608.52,"endTime":3613.14,"body":"He actually built the Google One vpn,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3613.96,"endTime":3617.504,"body":"which was also an interesting vpn."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3617.632,"endTime":3619.824,"body":"They had a blinded signatures authentication"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3619.872,"endTime":3620.988,"body":"scheme, which was interesting."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3621.104,"endTime":3624.052,"body":"And he was like, cool stuff, this needs to"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3624.076,"endTime":3624.5,"body":"happen."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3624.62,"endTime":3627.62,"body":"And wrote like a whole essay about like all"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3627.66,"endTime":3631.748,"body":"the different ways to avoid problems with the"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3627.66,"endTime":3631.748,"body":"Windows VPN stuff."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3631.764,"endTime":3634.068,"body":"So that's going to speed us along."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3634.124,"endTime":3635.956,"body":"That's going to speed us along, yeah."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3635.988,"endTime":3638.692,"body":"That's one of the things I"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3635.988,"endTime":3638.692,"body":"absolutely love about this space is people are"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3638.716,"endTime":3641.524,"body":"just so passionate about this that they're"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3638.716,"endTime":3641.524,"body":"willing to jump in and just help."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3641.612,"endTime":3645.508,"body":"Help other people for nothing just because"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3641.612,"endTime":3645.508,"body":"they want to see a really cool project"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3645.564,"endTime":3647.324,"body":"succeed, which is just so encouraging."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3647.492,"endTime":3651.628,"body":"We're all fighting the same good"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3647.492,"endTime":3651.628,"body":"fight, you know, we're all fighting this fight"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3651.684,"endTime":3655.564,"body":"for, you know, Internet freedom and digital"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3651.684,"endTime":3655.564,"body":"privacy."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3655.692,"endTime":3657.964,"body":"So, yeah, awesome."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3658.012,"endTime":3659.276,"body":"Well, thank you so much, Carl."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3659.308,"endTime":3661.1,"body":"It was just a really fun chat."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3661.18,"endTime":3663.932,"body":"It's been really cool getting to know you a"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3661.18,"endTime":3663.932,"body":"little bit more, obviously, to learn more"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3663.956,"endTime":3665.12,"body":"about Obscura."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3665.54,"endTime":3668.94,"body":"Excited to get this one out to everybody as"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3665.54,"endTime":3668.94,"body":"well, because I think it's just a fascinating"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3669.02,"endTime":3674.204,"body":"next step in VPNs and I think solves a lot of"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3669.02,"endTime":3674.204,"body":"the core problems of the traditional paradigm."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3674.252,"endTime":3675.998,"body":"So thankful for your work."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3676.134,"endTime":3677.614,"body":"Excited to ship this."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3677.702,"endTime":3680.65,"body":"Any last comments or anything you want to"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3677.702,"endTime":3680.65,"body":"leave our listeners with?"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3681.91,"endTime":3688.846,"body":"Check out Obscura.net and you know,"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3681.91,"endTime":3688.846,"body":"hop in our discord or we have a matrix bridge"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3688.878,"endTime":3690.57,"body":"as well, if you're into that."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3691.03,"endTime":3695.902,"body":"But, you know, let us know your thoughts and"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3691.03,"endTime":3695.902,"body":"questions and we'd be happy to have you."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3695.926,"endTime":3698.126,"body":"And it's been a real pleasure chatting with"},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3695.926,"endTime":3698.126,"body":"you, Seth."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3698.158,"endTime":3699.166,"body":"It's been fun."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3699.318,"endTime":3699.646,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3699.678,"endTime":3700.686,"body":"Have a good one, Carl."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3700.798,"endTime":3701.822,"body":"All right, cheers."},{"speaker":"Speaker B","startTime":3701.886,"endTime":3702.294,"body":"Bye."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3702.382,"endTime":3713.862,"body":"Foreign thanks for listening and I"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3702.382,"endTime":3713.862,"body":"hope you enjoyed this episode of Opt Out."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3713.966,"endTime":3716.662,"body":"If you did, please take a moment and subscribe"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3713.966,"endTime":3716.662,"body":"to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3716.726,"endTime":3720.982,"body":"Or if you're already subscribed, share it with"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3716.726,"endTime":3720.982,"body":"one friend or family member this week."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3721.166,"endTime":3725.542,"body":"As always, you can check out the link to the"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3721.166,"endTime":3725.542,"body":"guest content and contact info, as well as"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3725.566,"endTime":3728.102,"body":"links to all of the tools we discussed in"},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3725.566,"endTime":3728.102,"body":"today's episode."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3728.246,"endTime":3729.59,"body":"Now get out there and opt out."},{"speaker":"Speaker A","startTime":3729.63,"endTime":3730.82,"body":"This week sa."}]}