{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":5.34,"endTime":8.31,"body":"Hey everyone."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":5.34,"endTime":8.31,"body":"Welcome to selected essays, a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":8.31,"endTime":11.82,"body":"podcast series from the point"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":8.31,"endTime":11.82,"body":"magazine about essays you should"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":11.82,"endTime":15.81,"body":"read, but probably haven't. Each"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":11.82,"endTime":15.81,"body":"episode we'll be talking with"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":15.81,"endTime":19.59,"body":"writers about an essay that's"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":15.81,"endTime":19.59,"body":"influenced one of their own. My"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":19.59,"endTime":22.92,"body":"name is Jess Swoboda. And"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":19.59,"endTime":22.92,"body":"usually I'm here with my co-host"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":22.92,"endTime":25.92,"body":"Zack Fine, but today, it's just"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":22.92,"endTime":25.92,"body":"me as your host. Don't worry"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":25.92,"endTime":30.45,"body":"though, Zack will be back for"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":25.92,"endTime":30.45,"body":"the next episode. Today we have"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":30.45,"endTime":34.53,"body":"Siri Hustvedt on the podcast. I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":30.45,"endTime":34.53,"body":"spoke with Siri about Simone"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":34.53,"endTime":37.56,"body":"Weil's essay \"Human"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":34.53,"endTime":37.56,"body":"Personality,\" which was written"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":37.56,"endTime":42.0,"body":"in 1943, and also about Siri's"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":37.56,"endTime":42.0,"body":"essay \"Scapegoat,\" which is the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":42.0,"endTime":45.33,"body":"final essay in her most recent"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":42.0,"endTime":45.33,"body":"essay collection, \"Mothers,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":45.36,"endTime":50.64,"body":"Fathers and Others.\" Siri's the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":45.36,"endTime":50.64,"body":"author of a book of poetry, many"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":50.64,"endTime":54.51,"body":"essay collections and works of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":50.64,"endTime":54.51,"body":"nonfiction, and several novels,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":54.57,"endTime":57.69,"body":"including the International Best"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":54.57,"endTime":57.69,"body":"Sellers What I Loved and The"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":57.69,"endTime":61.05,"body":"Summer Without Men, as well as"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":57.69,"endTime":61.05,"body":"The Blazing World, which was"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":61.05,"endTime":65.25,"body":"long listed for the Man Booker"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":61.05,"endTime":65.25,"body":"Prize in 2014, and won the Los"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":65.25,"endTime":69.75,"body":"Angeles Book Prize for Fiction"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":65.25,"endTime":69.75,"body":"in 2015. Her work has been"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":69.75,"endTime":73.11,"body":"translated into over 30"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":69.75,"endTime":73.11,"body":"languages, and she's also a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":73.11,"endTime":77.91,"body":"lecturer in psychiatry at"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":73.11,"endTime":77.91,"body":"Cornell Medical College. We hope"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":77.91,"endTime":80.58,"body":"you'll enjoy this episode and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":77.91,"endTime":80.58,"body":"subscribe wherever you get your"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":80.58,"endTime":85.05,"body":"podcasts. If you have questions,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":80.58,"endTime":85.05,"body":"comments or anything else, send"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":85.05,"endTime":89.34,"body":"an email to selected essays at"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":85.05,"endTime":89.34,"body":"thepointmag.com. We'd love to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":89.34,"endTime":90.0,"body":"hear from you."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":102.9,"endTime":106.8,"body":"Hi, Siri, thanks so much for"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":102.9,"endTime":106.8,"body":"joining us on selected essays."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":107.76,"endTime":109.08,"body":"I'm happy to be"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":107.76,"endTime":109.08,"body":"here."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":110.34,"endTime":112.74,"body":"So you've"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":110.34,"endTime":112.74,"body":"selected Simone Weil's essay"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":112.77,"endTime":116.01,"body":"\"Human Personality,\" which was"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":112.77,"endTime":116.01,"body":"written during the last year her"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":116.01,"endTime":120.84,"body":"of her life in 1943. Can you"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":116.01,"endTime":120.84,"body":"tell us a little bit about her"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":120.84,"endTime":123.27,"body":"life and then what this essay is"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":120.84,"endTime":123.27,"body":"about?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":124.65,"endTime":128.73,"body":"So Simone Weil"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":124.65,"endTime":128.73,"body":"was born into a secular,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":129.27,"endTime":136.95,"body":"affluent Jewish family in Paris."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":129.27,"endTime":136.95,"body":"She was one of two siblings."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":136.98,"endTime":142.56,"body":"They were both prodigies. Her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":136.98,"endTime":142.56,"body":"brother became an important"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":142.98,"endTime":150.27,"body":"mathematician in France. She had"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":142.98,"endTime":150.27,"body":"the best of all possible"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":150.27,"endTime":155.49,"body":"educations for a person in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":150.27,"endTime":155.49,"body":"France at that time, including a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":155.49,"endTime":165.03,"body":"girl she went to Lycee at"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":155.49,"endTime":165.03,"body":"(....), which is was a renowned"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":165.12,"endTime":172.02,"body":"institution. And from there, she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":165.12,"endTime":172.02,"body":"went to the ecole normale in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":172.02,"endTime":177.51,"body":"1928. That was a year after they"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":172.02,"endTime":177.51,"body":"had first admitted women. She"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":177.51,"endTime":185.52,"body":"was the only woman in her class,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":177.51,"endTime":185.52,"body":"she wrote on Descartes and she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":185.58,"endTime":193.23,"body":"graduated in 1931. I think at"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":185.58,"endTime":193.23,"body":"the top of her class. She had a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":193.23,"endTime":197.22,"body":"deep interest in the suffering"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":193.23,"endTime":197.22,"body":"of others in the drama of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":197.25,"endTime":203.25,"body":"oppression, sympathy with"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":197.25,"endTime":203.25,"body":"workers, she was attracted to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":203.52,"endTime":209.49,"body":"Marxism. And after she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":203.52,"endTime":209.49,"body":"graduated, she taught at Lycee"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":211.35,"endTime":222.09,"body":"that she found boring. But she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":211.35,"endTime":222.09,"body":"also then began a life of what"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":222.09,"endTime":229.98,"body":"might be called Praxis or"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":222.09,"endTime":229.98,"body":"praxis, right that she worked in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":229.98,"endTime":237.75,"body":"factories with unskilled female"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":229.98,"endTime":237.75,"body":"laborers, including an a factory"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":237.75,"endTime":242.07,"body":"that made electrical components."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":237.75,"endTime":242.07,"body":"Weil was never very good at"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":242.07,"endTime":250.89,"body":"this. She was fired a couple of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":242.07,"endTime":250.89,"body":"times. And she was, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":250.89,"endTime":255.69,"body":"famous among people who knew her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":250.89,"endTime":255.69,"body":"for being clumsy. She couldn't"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":255.69,"endTime":259.32,"body":"fulfill her quotas."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":255.69,"endTime":259.32,"body":"Nevertheless, the experience of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":259.32,"endTime":266.34,"body":"working on assembly lines in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":259.32,"endTime":266.34,"body":"this in these really terrible"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":266.37,"endTime":272.85,"body":"conditions, was life changing"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":266.37,"endTime":272.85,"body":"for her. She understood what it"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":272.85,"endTime":283.77,"body":"meant to be dehumanized and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":272.85,"endTime":283.77,"body":"humiliated. She also was rather"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":283.8,"endTime":291.93,"body":"remarkably, a fighter in the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":283.8,"endTime":291.93,"body":"civil war in Spain. She called"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":291.93,"endTime":295.17,"body":"again her friends -- I believe"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":291.93,"endTime":295.17,"body":"this is in a letter that she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":295.17,"endTime":301.38,"body":"couldn't hold a rifle. She was"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":295.17,"endTime":301.38,"body":"terribly near-sighted, so she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":301.38,"endTime":305.67,"body":"would probably never kill anyone"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":301.38,"endTime":305.67,"body":"because she couldn't, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":306.21,"endTime":314.04,"body":"fire at a target. Not long after"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":306.21,"endTime":314.04,"body":"her stint as a warrior, she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":314.04,"endTime":322.89,"body":"stepped in boiling oil and had"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":314.04,"endTime":322.89,"body":"to retreat. From her brief"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":323.04,"endTime":330.03,"body":"period as a soldier, she went to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":323.04,"endTime":330.03,"body":"Portugal and in Portugal, she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":330.03,"endTime":335.64,"body":"had what I think was her first"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":330.03,"endTime":335.64,"body":"movement toward Christianity,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":336.0,"endTime":342.33,"body":"when she heard some peasant"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":336.0,"endTime":342.33,"body":"women singing ancient Christian"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":342.33,"endTime":347.37,"body":"hymns. And the insight she had"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":342.33,"endTime":347.37,"body":"was that Christianity was the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":347.37,"endTime":355.92,"body":"religion of slavery. From there,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":347.37,"endTime":355.92,"body":"she was in Italy for a time and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":355.95,"endTime":363.0,"body":"had a mystical experience that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":355.95,"endTime":363.0,"body":"she wrote about as forcing her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":363.15,"endTime":371.94,"body":"to her knees for the first time."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":363.15,"endTime":371.94,"body":"Then she, when this is you have"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":371.94,"endTime":377.52,"body":"to remember, so this is in the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":371.94,"endTime":377.52,"body":"30s. But then, with the Nazi"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":377.52,"endTime":384.15,"body":"occupation of France, she fled"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":377.52,"endTime":384.15,"body":"with her parents, they ended up"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":384.18,"endTime":391.41,"body":"in New York. But she was eager"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":384.18,"endTime":391.41,"body":"to be much closer to the war. By"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":391.41,"endTime":395.25,"body":"then, as you understand, she had"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":391.41,"endTime":395.25,"body":"given up her earlier pacifism."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":395.94,"endTime":404.22,"body":"And she wrangled her way into a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":395.94,"endTime":404.22,"body":"job in England, working for Free"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":404.22,"endTime":409.29,"body":"France, that is undertake de"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":404.22,"endTime":409.29,"body":"Gaulle, and she had a plan to I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":409.29,"endTime":416.46,"body":"believe, have nurses jump out of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":409.29,"endTime":416.46,"body":"planes into occupied territory"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":416.7,"endTime":426.99,"body":"to save, do what they could for"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":416.7,"endTime":426.99,"body":"injured soldiers -- de Gaulle"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":426.99,"endTime":435.27,"body":"read this and famously said, but"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":426.99,"endTime":435.27,"body":"she's mad. So that program,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":435.3,"endTime":439.14,"body":"right didn't work. But the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":435.3,"endTime":439.14,"body":"period that we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":439.14,"endTime":445.11,"body":"when she was in England, she was"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":439.14,"endTime":445.11,"body":"writing at full force, plague"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":445.14,"endTime":454.23,"body":"plagued by gruesome, headaches,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":445.14,"endTime":454.23,"body":"migraines, she was eating very"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":454.23,"endTime":461.79,"body":"little, she had eaten in a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":454.23,"endTime":461.79,"body":"troubled way from childhood. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":461.79,"endTime":468.45,"body":"she died of tuberculosis that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":461.79,"endTime":468.45,"body":"was probably aggravated by her a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":468.45,"endTime":474.48,"body":"form of self-starvation in 1943"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":468.45,"endTime":474.48,"body":"34 years old, which"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":474.51,"endTime":478.11,"body":"is, which is"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":474.51,"endTime":478.11,"body":"wild, to think through and to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":478.11,"endTime":482.25,"body":"think of how much she produced"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":478.11,"endTime":482.25,"body":"before the age of 34. And to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":482.25,"endTime":484.77,"body":"know and then to think, too,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":482.25,"endTime":484.77,"body":"that a lot of her work didn't"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":484.77,"endTime":488.76,"body":"become read until after her"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":484.77,"endTime":488.76,"body":"death. So she never very until"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":488.76,"endTime":490.83,"body":"was residence, she would have"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":488.76,"endTime":490.83,"body":"her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":490.0,"endTime":495.31,"body":"Her work on the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":490.0,"endTime":495.31,"body":"Iliad was published during her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":495.31,"endTime":499.27,"body":"lifetime, but most of it is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":495.31,"endTime":499.27,"body":"posthumously published."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":500.77,"endTime":503.32,"body":"And then can"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":500.77,"endTime":503.32,"body":"you provide a bit of a summary"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":503.35,"endTime":506.74,"body":"of the essay that we'll be"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":503.35,"endTime":506.74,"body":"discussing today? I know that it"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":506.74,"endTime":509.29,"body":"was like a daunting task, I was"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":506.74,"endTime":509.29,"body":"thinking, how would I how would"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":509.29,"endTime":510.46,"body":"I summarize this?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":510.0,"endTime":516.09,"body":"So the essay in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":510.0,"endTime":516.09,"body":"English is called \"Human"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":516.48,"endTime":526.8,"body":"Personality.\" In French, it's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":516.48,"endTime":526.8,"body":"called La person a (...), which"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":526.8,"endTime":533.79,"body":"means the person and the secret."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":526.8,"endTime":533.79,"body":"Now, even though this sounds in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":533.79,"endTime":538.35,"body":"English, as if it's some kind of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":533.79,"endTime":538.35,"body":"psychiatric document, it has"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":538.35,"endTime":543.06,"body":"nothing to do with \"Human"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":538.35,"endTime":543.06,"body":"Personality\" in the way we think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":543.06,"endTime":549.96,"body":"of it. It is really an argument"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":543.06,"endTime":549.96,"body":"against a philosophical and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":549.96,"endTime":556.08,"body":"theological position called"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":549.96,"endTime":556.08,"body":"personalism. It was first used"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":556.44,"endTime":562.44,"body":"by the German theologian"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":556.44,"endTime":562.44,"body":"Schleiermacher. Now, all you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":562.44,"endTime":565.8,"body":"have to know about that there"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":562.44,"endTime":565.8,"body":"are many different kinds of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":565.83,"endTime":574.14,"body":"personalisms. But all one has to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":565.83,"endTime":574.14,"body":"know is that those ideas took as"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":574.14,"endTime":580.83,"body":"their sort of origin"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":574.14,"endTime":580.83,"body":"epistemological ontology, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":580.83,"endTime":586.2,"body":"know, they're the idea of being"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":580.83,"endTime":586.2,"body":"and how you know what, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":586.2,"endTime":594.69,"body":"from the single person. What"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":586.2,"endTime":594.69,"body":"Weil is arguing about is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":594.69,"endTime":601.74,"body":"precisely against that position"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":594.69,"endTime":601.74,"body":"and she wants the reader to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":601.74,"endTime":610.89,"body":"understand that a human being is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":601.74,"endTime":610.89,"body":"not a collection of rights,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":611.7,"endTime":618.06,"body":"individual rights. But what is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":611.7,"endTime":618.06,"body":"to be valued in the person is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":618.06,"endTime":624.9,"body":"precisely what is not personal,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":618.06,"endTime":624.9,"body":"what is impersonal."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":626.34,"endTime":628.53,"body":"I do want to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":626.34,"endTime":628.53,"body":"start with just entering us into"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":628.53,"endTime":631.92,"body":"the text. And now when you wrote"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":628.53,"endTime":631.92,"body":"to me, you when you're"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":631.92,"endTime":636.15,"body":"communicating earlier, you said"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":631.92,"endTime":636.15,"body":"to me, I keep returning to this"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":636.15,"endTime":639.66,"body":"remarkable essay, which has one"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":636.15,"endTime":639.66,"body":"of the most beautiful openings"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":639.66,"endTime":643.68,"body":"in the history of the forum. And"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":639.66,"endTime":643.68,"body":"so I'm hoping that you can read"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":643.68,"endTime":647.85,"body":"that aloud to us and then"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":643.68,"endTime":647.85,"body":"explain for us what you find so"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":647.85,"endTime":650.49,"body":"beautiful about the essays"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":647.85,"endTime":650.49,"body":"opening."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":651.47,"endTime":654.02,"body":"These are the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":651.47,"endTime":654.02,"body":"first sentences of the essay."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":655.28,"endTime":663.38,"body":"You do not interest me. No man"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":655.28,"endTime":663.38,"body":"can say these words to another"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":663.56,"endTime":670.97,"body":"without committing a cruelty and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":663.56,"endTime":670.97,"body":"offending against justice. That"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":671.57,"endTime":682.22,"body":"slays me every. I mean, I find"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":671.57,"endTime":682.22,"body":"it so I mean, so bracing. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":683.06,"endTime":690.29,"body":"so, like Weil, you know, when"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":683.06,"endTime":690.29,"body":"she's at her best, she cuts"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":690.29,"endTime":701.03,"body":"through all crap, right? And she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":690.29,"endTime":701.03,"body":"has a combination of what I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":701.03,"endTime":706.34,"body":"think of as Cartesian rigor. She"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":701.03,"endTime":706.34,"body":"wrote about Descartes,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":706.37,"endTime":714.53,"body":"Descartes, clarity, and rigor"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":706.37,"endTime":714.53,"body":"with a tremendous passion for"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":714.53,"endTime":719.9,"body":"whatever she's writing about."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":714.53,"endTime":719.9,"body":"These traits are really what I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":719.9,"endTime":724.61,"body":"admire most in her even when I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":719.9,"endTime":724.61,"body":"disagree, disagree sometimes"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":724.64,"endTime":732.68,"body":"rather, strenuously was her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":724.64,"endTime":732.68,"body":"position. But the this these"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":732.68,"endTime":737.27,"body":"first sentences to say to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":732.68,"endTime":737.27,"body":"another person, you do not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":737.27,"endTime":743.6,"body":"interest me. I do agree"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":737.27,"endTime":743.6,"body":"entirely, that that is a form of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":743.6,"endTime":750.62,"body":"terrible injustice. That because"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":743.6,"endTime":750.62,"body":"we share a species B that's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":750.62,"endTime":754.31,"body":"taken from the early marks, and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":750.62,"endTime":754.31,"body":"I'm twisting it around, but we"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":754.31,"endTime":764.12,"body":"do share a species B, that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":754.31,"endTime":764.12,"body":"commonality in itself should"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":764.63,"endTime":771.92,"body":"entail interest. And William"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":764.63,"endTime":771.92,"body":"James, another philosopher that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":771.92,"endTime":779.03,"body":"I have great admiration for,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":771.92,"endTime":779.03,"body":"talked about the horror, of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":779.03,"endTime":785.57,"body":"being cut off from others, of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":779.03,"endTime":785.57,"body":"walking into a room and not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":785.57,"endTime":792.53,"body":"being seen --- the nightmare of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":785.57,"endTime":792.53,"body":"no recognition. I think these"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":792.56,"endTime":801.29,"body":"ideas are linked here. It is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":792.56,"endTime":801.29,"body":"that we should not because of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":801.29,"endTime":809.66,"body":"our shared reality, annihilate"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":801.29,"endTime":809.66,"body":"others, through no interest, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":809.66,"endTime":811.01,"body":"do not interest me."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":813.8,"endTime":817.43,"body":"That's a really"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":813.8,"endTime":817.43,"body":"provocative way of understanding"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":817.43,"endTime":822.44,"body":"it. It is really piercing to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":817.43,"endTime":822.44,"body":"read that first line. And"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":822.47,"endTime":825.38,"body":"understanding the difference"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":822.47,"endTime":825.38,"body":"between you do not interest me"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":825.5,"endTime":829.07,"body":"and your person does not"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":825.5,"endTime":829.07,"body":"interest me seems central to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":829.07,"endTime":832.49,"body":"getting in and entering into the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":829.07,"endTime":832.49,"body":"essay as a whole. Yeah, what"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":832.52,"endTime":835.4,"body":"what do you take her to be"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":832.52,"endTime":835.4,"body":"saying about their difference?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":835.0,"endTime":837.31,"body":"it's very"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":835.0,"endTime":837.31,"body":"strange. I mean, she makes some"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":835.43,"endTime":835.73,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":837.31,"endTime":842.53,"body":"very strange arguments here. But"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":837.31,"endTime":842.53,"body":"I think what she's saying is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":842.53,"endTime":853.78,"body":"that what is an injustice is not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":842.53,"endTime":853.78,"body":"saying that aspects of a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":853.78,"endTime":859.69,"body":"person's, you know, personality,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":853.78,"endTime":859.69,"body":"the things that you add up, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":859.69,"endTime":865.39,"body":"know, their looks or their tone"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":859.69,"endTime":865.39,"body":"of voice or gestures or what"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":865.39,"endTime":871.75,"body":"have you. That you're not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":865.39,"endTime":871.75,"body":"allowed to dismiss those things."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":871.87,"endTime":880.24,"body":"This is okay. Those features of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":871.87,"endTime":880.24,"body":"a person we're allowed to joke"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":880.24,"endTime":888.64,"body":"about, we're allowed to make fun"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":880.24,"endTime":888.64,"body":"of, perhaps, put aside it is the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":888.88,"endTime":897.61,"body":"impersonal human species being"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":888.88,"endTime":897.61,"body":"that we can't ignore. I think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":897.61,"endTime":900.64,"body":"that's what she's saying. She"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":897.61,"endTime":900.64,"body":"goes on to make a really"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":900.64,"endTime":908.02,"body":"peculiar remark about putting"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":900.64,"endTime":908.02,"body":"the eyes out, poking the eyes"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":908.02,"endTime":913.12,"body":"out of a man walking down the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":908.02,"endTime":913.12,"body":"street, and then saying that,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":913.75,"endTime":918.94,"body":"you know, she could do that and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":913.75,"endTime":918.94,"body":"he would remain, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":918.94,"endTime":925.09,"body":"same person, which I think is to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":918.94,"endTime":925.09,"body":"be perfectly honest nonsense. I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":925.09,"endTime":928.72,"body":"would agree. He would not remain"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":925.09,"endTime":928.72,"body":"the same and why she chooses"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":928.72,"endTime":936.7,"body":"that I have no idea. But she is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":928.72,"endTime":936.7,"body":"building this argument that it's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":936.88,"endTime":942.82,"body":"a respect for something else for"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":936.88,"endTime":942.82,"body":"this good thing that the person,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":943.03,"endTime":946.75,"body":"and this I think is rather deep,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":943.03,"endTime":946.75,"body":"that the person has an"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":946.78,"endTime":955.87,"body":"expectation of goodness, and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":946.78,"endTime":955.87,"body":"that every person does. Now, is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":955.87,"endTime":961.72,"body":"that true? Or is that not true?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":955.87,"endTime":961.72,"body":"I would translate that, and this"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":961.72,"endTime":964.69,"body":"is whenever you translate"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":961.72,"endTime":964.69,"body":"someone's ideas, you are always"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":964.69,"endTime":970.42,"body":"doing some harm to them. But I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":964.69,"endTime":970.42,"body":"would translate that as the fact"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":970.42,"endTime":975.49,"body":"that human beings do, even in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":970.42,"endTime":975.49,"body":"the most dire circumstances"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":975.52,"endTime":983.29,"body":"cling to hope. And hope, is the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":975.52,"endTime":983.29,"body":"expectation of good. It is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":983.29,"endTime":984.37,"body":"nothing but that."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":985.83,"endTime":986.97,"body":"Right? It"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":985.83,"endTime":986.97,"body":"can't."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":986.0,"endTime":987.65,"body":"And it's not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":986.0,"endTime":987.65,"body":"optimism, right? Because Weil is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":987.65,"endTime":990.8,"body":"definitely not an optimist."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":987.65,"endTime":990.8,"body":"Optimism means that you expect a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":990.8,"endTime":991.28,"body":"good outcome."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":991.94,"endTime":999.17,"body":"Right, and she's definitely not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":991.94,"endTime":999.17,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":999.83,"endTime":1007.15,"body":"An expectation that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":999.83,"endTime":1007.15,"body":"there can be some good out"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1007.15,"endTime":1010.33,"body":"there. So. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1007.15,"endTime":1010.33,"body":"there's, there's a difference."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1012.01,"endTime":1014.32,"body":"You know, putting the eyes out,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1012.01,"endTime":1014.32,"body":"I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1015.25,"endTime":1017.08,"body":"One of the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1015.25,"endTime":1017.08,"body":"things I was trying to work"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1017.08,"endTime":1021.58,"body":"through, as I read this essay"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1017.08,"endTime":1021.58,"body":"was what prohibits us from"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1021.73,"endTime":1027.58,"body":"seeing the impersonal or being"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1021.73,"endTime":1027.58,"body":"able to understand it. And it"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1027.58,"endTime":1031.75,"body":"seemed to me that first was that"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1027.58,"endTime":1031.75,"body":"we're very intent on asserting"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1031.78,"endTime":1035.56,"body":"the personality asserting the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1031.78,"endTime":1035.56,"body":"person foregrounding the person,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1036.01,"endTime":1040.27,"body":"and then the second thing seemed"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1036.01,"endTime":1040.27,"body":"to be submerging ourselves in"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1040.27,"endTime":1043.48,"body":"the collective and she uses"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1040.27,"endTime":1043.48,"body":"submerge, and I don't know, if"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1043.48,"endTime":1046.0,"body":"it's a translation issue, I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1043.48,"endTime":1046.0,"body":"don't know if the French would"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1046.0,"endTime":1050.29,"body":"suggest submerge, but that"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1046.0,"endTime":1050.29,"body":"suggests this total loss of the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1050.29,"endTime":1054.13,"body":"self this total loss of agency"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1050.29,"endTime":1054.13,"body":"passivity, it's just an entrance"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1054.13,"endTime":1061.81,"body":"into passivity. And so, what is"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1054.13,"endTime":1061.81,"body":"keeping us from the impersonal"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1061.81,"endTime":1066.7,"body":"Why is it so sacred, why is it"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1061.81,"endTime":1066.7,"body":"so hard to to see?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1066.93,"endTime":1069.0,"body":"Well, of course,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1066.93,"endTime":1069.0,"body":"you know, everything has a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1069.0,"endTime":1075.18,"body":"context right. So, the return or"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1069.0,"endTime":1075.18,"body":"the interest, I think, the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1075.18,"endTime":1080.94,"body":"contemporary interest in Weil"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1075.18,"endTime":1080.94,"body":"always has to be draped in our"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1080.94,"endTime":1092.07,"body":"own perceptions, right. We are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1080.94,"endTime":1092.07,"body":"in a world of group and you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1092.07,"endTime":1097.17,"body":"know, what is called often"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1092.07,"endTime":1097.17,"body":"identity politics, if you will,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1098.31,"endTime":1108.18,"body":"and I think this has become"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1098.31,"endTime":1108.18,"body":"fractious, right, a fractious"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1108.18,"endTime":1115.47,"body":"reality, right. So that people"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1108.18,"endTime":1115.47,"body":"are submerged in an identity and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1115.47,"endTime":1122.22,"body":"what Weil is saying is that,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1115.47,"endTime":1122.22,"body":"really, it is impossible for the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1122.22,"endTime":1129.57,"body":"group, especially political"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1122.22,"endTime":1129.57,"body":"groups, to speak for, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1129.6,"endTime":1138.78,"body":"the deep individual experiences"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1129.6,"endTime":1138.78,"body":"of, of human beings. And to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1138.81,"endTime":1146.64,"body":"avoid affliction, she is asking"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1138.81,"endTime":1146.64,"body":"for every human being, to have"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1147.6,"endTime":1157.95,"body":"the room and time to cultivate"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1147.6,"endTime":1157.95,"body":"attention. That is something"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1158.64,"endTime":1164.19,"body":"that I think most people living"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1158.64,"endTime":1164.19,"body":"in contemporary Western"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1164.19,"endTime":1174.12,"body":"societies feel a profound lack"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1164.19,"endTime":1174.12,"body":"of, right? And that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1175.44,"endTime":1183.9,"body":"individualism, the self, the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1175.44,"endTime":1183.9,"body":"great pad itself, of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1183.9,"endTime":1189.81,"body":"neoliberalism, right, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1183.9,"endTime":1189.81,"body":"which was something that she did"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1189.81,"endTime":1193.95,"body":"not know about. She was dead"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1189.81,"endTime":1193.95,"body":"before the real rise of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1193.95,"endTime":1200.43,"body":"neoliberalism, where the self is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1193.95,"endTime":1200.43,"body":"everything and collective life"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1200.43,"endTime":1211.68,"body":"has been battered to pieces the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1200.43,"endTime":1211.68,"body":"you know, commerce or exchange,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1212.19,"endTime":1220.08,"body":"buying things to pad the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1212.19,"endTime":1220.08,"body":"singular self, or advertising on"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1220.08,"endTime":1229.65,"body":"Instagram, your perfect singular"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1220.08,"endTime":1229.65,"body":"life, I think has proved to be"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1229.65,"endTime":1236.37,"body":"part of the malaise of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1229.65,"endTime":1236.37,"body":"contemporary culture. So when"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1236.37,"endTime":1247.53,"body":"people read someone like Weil,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1236.37,"endTime":1247.53,"body":"who is arguing for the throwing"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1247.56,"endTime":1255.42,"body":"off of that obsession with the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1247.56,"endTime":1255.42,"body":"self, you know, I did it, I made"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1255.42,"endTime":1260.19,"body":"myself the self made man, this,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1255.42,"endTime":1260.19,"body":"this isn't an old thing. And it"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1260.19,"endTime":1264.87,"body":"repeats itself in it, especially"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1260.19,"endTime":1264.87,"body":"in U.S. culture, but certainly"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1264.87,"endTime":1269.61,"body":"in Western culture in general."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1264.87,"endTime":1269.61,"body":"And now because of globalization"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1269.82,"endTime":1276.75,"body":"all over the place that we make"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1269.82,"endTime":1276.75,"body":"ourselves, right, that we"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1276.75,"endTime":1281.37,"body":"literally are, I don't know how"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1276.75,"endTime":1281.37,"body":"we do that as last time I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1281.37,"endTime":1284.52,"body":"checked, we were all born out of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1281.37,"endTime":1284.52,"body":"the body of somebody else."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1284.97,"endTime":1289.11,"body":"Right, we were not only born out"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1284.97,"endTime":1289.11,"body":"of the body of someone else, we"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1289.11,"endTime":1292.65,"body":"just stayed inside that body,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1289.11,"endTime":1292.65,"body":"and we had to be cut away from"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1292.65,"endTime":1296.28,"body":"that body. This is me, of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1292.65,"endTime":1296.28,"body":"course, not Weil. She never says"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1296.28,"endTime":1302.88,"body":"anything about pregnancy and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1296.28,"endTime":1302.88,"body":"birth. But it's my little"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1302.88,"endTime":1307.92,"body":"sounding board. And this, I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1302.88,"endTime":1307.92,"body":"think, is only a further"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1307.92,"endTime":1317.91,"body":"argument for the A form of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1307.92,"endTime":1317.91,"body":"binding one person to another."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1318.63,"endTime":1322.92,"body":"And as we all know, there are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1318.63,"endTime":1322.92,"body":"now philosophers that are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1322.92,"endTime":1331.23,"body":"talking about a much larger kind"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1322.92,"endTime":1331.23,"body":"of binding to other species, not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1331.23,"endTime":1342.0,"body":"just our species being but the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1331.23,"endTime":1342.0,"body":"recognition that we are part of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1342.3,"endTime":1347.55,"body":"a fragile, connective tissue."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1347.0,"endTime":1352.49,"body":"I wonder if"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1347.0,"endTime":1352.49,"body":"it's even possible for for"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1352.49,"endTime":1355.79,"body":"individuals in contemporary"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1352.49,"endTime":1355.79,"body":"society with how beholden we are"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1355.79,"endTime":1360.26,"body":"and steeped we are in the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1355.79,"endTime":1360.26,"body":"attention economy and capitalism"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1360.26,"endTime":1363.62,"body":"to cultivate the type of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1360.26,"endTime":1363.62,"body":"attention that Weil that Weil"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1363.65,"endTime":1367.85,"body":"wants us to? And what we might"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1363.65,"endTime":1367.85,"body":"need to change in our individual"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1367.85,"endTime":1372.98,"body":"selves in order to do that, and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1367.85,"endTime":1372.98,"body":"it's something I've thought a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1372.98,"endTime":1374.78,"body":"lot about with her. Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1372.98,"endTime":1374.78,"body":"don't know."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1375.59,"endTime":1380.99,"body":"Well, it's a big"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1375.59,"endTime":1380.99,"body":"question. I. I also think that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1381.74,"endTime":1388.88,"body":"one of the reasons that reading"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1381.74,"endTime":1388.88,"body":"Weil is a tonic is not because"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1388.94,"endTime":1395.78,"body":"again, you have to go down the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1388.94,"endTime":1395.78,"body":"line with her ideas, or embrace"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1395.78,"endTime":1402.8,"body":"the transcendent or end up with,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1395.78,"endTime":1402.8,"body":"you know, truth, beauty and God,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1404.12,"endTime":1410.6,"body":"but rather, because you are in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1404.12,"endTime":1410.6,"body":"the presence of a rigorous mind,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1411.53,"endTime":1420.35,"body":"that is questioning the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1411.53,"endTime":1420.35,"body":"platitudes that we all are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1420.35,"endTime":1425.99,"body":"subjected to that are pounded"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1420.35,"endTime":1425.99,"body":"into us, and you bring up"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1426.56,"endTime":1435.53,"body":"capitalism, and I think it's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1426.56,"endTime":1435.53,"body":"very important to recognize the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1435.53,"endTime":1445.04,"body":"degree to which we accept the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1435.53,"endTime":1445.04,"body":"idea of capitalist realism, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1452.48,"body":"know, which was a phrase, gosh,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1452.48,"body":"what's his name, now, English"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1452.48,"endTime":1458.3,"body":"philosopher, he killed himself"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1452.48,"endTime":1458.3,"body":"will come to me anyway, he"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1458.33,"endTime":1462.41,"body":"coined this phrase, because what"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1458.33,"endTime":1462.41,"body":"happens in the culture is that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1462.41,"endTime":1465.98,"body":"propaganda produces this idea"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1462.41,"endTime":1465.98,"body":"that it cannot be any other way."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1466.07,"endTime":1472.94,"body":"Right, right. This is just how"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1466.07,"endTime":1472.94,"body":"it is, you know, unionism is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1472.94,"endTime":1478.67,"body":"dead, you know, this is speaking"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1472.94,"endTime":1478.67,"body":"against Weil actually, there are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1478.67,"endTime":1485.06,"body":"ways to organize and I am not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1478.67,"endTime":1485.06,"body":"opposed to group identities. I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1485.06,"endTime":1491.0,"body":"think we understand that forms"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1485.06,"endTime":1491.0,"body":"of group identity are very"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1491.0,"endTime":1500.63,"body":"important. They're, politically"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1491.0,"endTime":1500.63,"body":"significant. There is a actually"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1500.66,"endTime":1509.9,"body":"a little link, I think between"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1500.66,"endTime":1509.9,"body":"Weil's idea of the, the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1509.93,"endTime":1518.18,"body":"impersonal equality and critical"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1509.93,"endTime":1518.18,"body":"race theory, which began as I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1518.18,"endTime":1524.63,"body":"think most people know, as a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1518.18,"endTime":1524.63,"body":"legal theory, and then was"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1524.63,"endTime":1536.12,"body":"expanded. But the idea in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1524.63,"endTime":1536.12,"body":"critical race theory is that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1537.05,"endTime":1543.77,"body":"individual rights before the law"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1537.05,"endTime":1543.77,"body":"are not enough, because they"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1543.77,"endTime":1551.33,"body":"rest on a notion of equality of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1543.77,"endTime":1551.33,"body":"all people that has not yet been"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1551.36,"endTime":1561.11,"body":"established. So just to focus on"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1551.36,"endTime":1561.11,"body":"the individual, as if he she, or"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1561.11,"endTime":1566.15,"body":"they were completely separated"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1561.11,"endTime":1566.15,"body":"from the rest of what's going on"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1566.15,"endTime":1572.33,"body":"in the world is a kind of lie,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1566.15,"endTime":1572.33,"body":"right? Because, uh, some people"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1572.36,"endTime":1579.77,"body":"are silenced. And some people"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1572.36,"endTime":1579.77,"body":"are free to speak. So, in terms"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1579.77,"endTime":1585.29,"body":"of free speech rights, that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1579.77,"endTime":1585.29,"body":"Weil, you know, glancingly comes"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1585.29,"endTime":1591.32,"body":"on she says, Well, some people"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1585.29,"endTime":1591.32,"body":"can't even speak. So how, how"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1591.32,"endTime":1597.92,"body":"are we then to recognize their"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1591.32,"endTime":1597.92,"body":"equality with the rest of us,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1598.22,"endTime":1603.65,"body":"when the tools are not even"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1598.22,"endTime":1603.65,"body":"there for them when they cannot"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1604.16,"endTime":1612.95,"body":"attend? Because they haven't."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1604.16,"endTime":1612.95,"body":"Um, they have been so afflicted,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1613.73,"endTime":1619.97,"body":"that they can't speak. These are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1613.73,"endTime":1619.97,"body":"very important points, I think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1619.97,"endTime":1625.4,"body":"that can be taken in a number of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1619.97,"endTime":1625.4,"body":"different directions. And she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1625.4,"endTime":1626.45,"body":"allows that"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1627.95,"endTime":1630.08,"body":"Your comment"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1627.95,"endTime":1630.08,"body":"there just made me think, do you"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1630.08,"endTime":1634.73,"body":"think that's why when she talks"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1630.08,"endTime":1634.73,"body":"about rights, saying, Oh, you to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1634.73,"endTime":1638.84,"body":"say I have the right or you have"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1634.73,"endTime":1638.84,"body":"no right to is to what she says"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1638.87,"endTime":1642.65,"body":"a vocal, late and war and awaken"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1638.87,"endTime":1642.65,"body":"the spirit of contention, but"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1642.65,"endTime":1645.56,"body":"when to use the language of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1642.65,"endTime":1645.56,"body":"justice, or what you're doing to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1645.56,"endTime":1649.79,"body":"me is not just, you may touch"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1645.56,"endTime":1649.79,"body":"and awaken at its source, the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1649.79,"endTime":1654.14,"body":"spirit of attention and love."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1649.79,"endTime":1654.14,"body":"And so is that what you were"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1654.14,"endTime":1657.68,"body":"saying there? Is that why she"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1654.14,"endTime":1657.68,"body":"associates righs with war, and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1657.68,"endTime":1661.61,"body":"just with the attention that she"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1657.68,"endTime":1661.61,"body":"so wants to cultivate?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1661.54,"endTime":1664.06,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1661.54,"endTime":1664.06,"body":"really the distinction she's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1664.06,"endTime":1668.77,"body":"making. Right? And if you ask"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1664.06,"endTime":1668.77,"body":"yourself, I mean, I've asked"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1668.77,"endTime":1680.29,"body":"myself this for a long time, if"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1668.77,"endTime":1680.29,"body":"we believe in equality, which"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1680.29,"endTime":1688.45,"body":"for me, means something radical,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1680.29,"endTime":1688.45,"body":"which is that every human life"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1688.57,"endTime":1693.97,"body":"is worth as much as every other."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1688.57,"endTime":1693.97,"body":"Right? This is a this is a big"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1693.97,"endTime":1699.76,"body":"statement. We know that human"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1693.97,"endTime":1699.76,"body":"beings are not alike, in their"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1699.79,"endTime":1707.23,"body":"narratives, in their privilege,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1699.79,"endTime":1707.23,"body":"in how they are able or not able"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1707.23,"endTime":1717.04,"body":"to develop their own gifts. All"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1707.23,"endTime":1717.04,"body":"of that is unequal. Right? So to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1717.04,"endTime":1720.76,"body":"say, that you believe in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1717.04,"endTime":1720.76,"body":"equality is not to say that you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1720.76,"endTime":1725.32,"body":"believe everybody's the same,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1720.76,"endTime":1725.32,"body":"right? Right. In fact, we're"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1726.55,"endTime":1730.81,"body":"amazingly different. And around"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1726.55,"endTime":1730.81,"body":"the world, we have amazingly"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1730.81,"endTime":1734.68,"body":"different social ways of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1730.81,"endTime":1734.68,"body":"organizing ourselves. So"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1734.89,"endTime":1742.84,"body":"differences are huge. But that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1734.89,"endTime":1742.84,"body":"notion of every life being as"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1742.93,"endTime":1750.76,"body":"worthy as every other life is a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1742.93,"endTime":1750.76,"body":"kind of faith issue. We can't"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1750.76,"endTime":1758.11,"body":"prove that. I mean, I can't give"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1750.76,"endTime":1758.11,"body":"you a formulation, which will"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1758.53,"endTime":1767.17,"body":"explain that that is, in fact,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1758.53,"endTime":1767.17,"body":"part of my secular faith. Right."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1767.77,"endTime":1771.94,"body":"And there are people who are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1767.77,"endTime":1771.94,"body":"continually arguing against"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1771.94,"endTime":1776.59,"body":"that. Right, right, that that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1771.94,"endTime":1776.59,"body":"actually there are human"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1776.62,"endTime":1784.66,"body":"hierarchies. Weil's argument"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1776.62,"endTime":1784.66,"body":"which ends up in God's lap, if"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1784.66,"endTime":1790.78,"body":"you will, is nevertheless an"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1784.66,"endTime":1790.78,"body":"argument about a kind of faith"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1792.04,"endTime":1799.93,"body":"in the equality of every single"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1792.04,"endTime":1799.93,"body":"human being, being of essence"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1799.93,"endTime":1805.84,"body":"much value, not just because you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1799.93,"endTime":1805.84,"body":"have the same rights in front of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1805.84,"endTime":1809.53,"body":"the law, but something deeper"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1805.84,"endTime":1809.53,"body":"than that. And I think that's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1809.53,"endTime":1816.37,"body":"what you're posing. Right? What"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1809.53,"endTime":1816.37,"body":"is it that can allow us to think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1816.37,"endTime":1828.13,"body":"about an idea that is not just a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1816.37,"endTime":1828.13,"body":"more pinched notion of attaching"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1828.13,"endTime":1830.5,"body":"certain rights to a human body."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1832.73,"endTime":1835.13,"body":"I want to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1832.73,"endTime":1835.13,"body":"return to the idea of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1835.13,"endTime":1838.91,"body":"affliction. And I think you've"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1835.13,"endTime":1838.91,"body":"read from this passage earlier."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1838.91,"endTime":1842.36,"body":"But if we can return to it"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1838.91,"endTime":1842.36,"body":"again, the the second passage"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1842.66,"endTime":1844.01,"body":"that you've selected,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1845.98,"endTime":1854.2,"body":"Yes. This is,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1845.98,"endTime":1854.2,"body":"this is also amazing, I think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1855.67,"endTime":1859.54,"body":"human thought is unable to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1855.67,"endTime":1859.54,"body":"acknowledge the reality of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1859.54,"endTime":1865.3,"body":"affliction. To acknowledge the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1859.54,"endTime":1865.3,"body":"reality of affliction means"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1865.3,"endTime":1872.5,"body":"saying to oneself, I may lose at"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1865.3,"endTime":1872.5,"body":"any moment, through the play of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1872.5,"endTime":1878.98,"body":"circumstances over which I have"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1872.5,"endTime":1878.98,"body":"no control. anything whatsoever"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1879.34,"endTime":1885.07,"body":"that I possess, including those"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1879.34,"endTime":1885.07,"body":"things, which are so intimately"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1885.07,"endTime":1891.61,"body":"mine, that I consider them as"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1885.07,"endTime":1891.61,"body":"being myself. There is nothing"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1892.15,"endTime":1897.58,"body":"that I might not lose. It could"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1892.15,"endTime":1897.58,"body":"happen at any moment, that what"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1897.58,"endTime":1902.95,"body":"I am might be abolished, and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1897.58,"endTime":1902.95,"body":"replaced by anything whatsoever"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1902.98,"endTime":1908.62,"body":"of the filthiest and most"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1902.98,"endTime":1908.62,"body":"contemptible sorts. This isn't"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1908.62,"endTime":1909.79,"body":"dramatic statement."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1910.4,"endTime":1913.43,"body":"It is why did"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":1910.4,"endTime":1913.43,"body":"you select this passage?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1914.11,"endTime":1917.56,"body":"Well, because I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1914.11,"endTime":1917.56,"body":"think it's true, I think that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1917.74,"endTime":1924.97,"body":"the way most of us live, quite"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1917.74,"endTime":1924.97,"body":"naturally, is we expect that the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1924.97,"endTime":1930.43,"body":"patterns of the past will be"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1924.97,"endTime":1930.43,"body":"repeated in the future. That is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1930.43,"endTime":1939.46,"body":"how we manage our lives. The"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1930.43,"endTime":1939.46,"body":"truth is, that at any moment,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1940.78,"endTime":1948.97,"body":"every person can be struck by"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1940.78,"endTime":1948.97,"body":"something cataclysmic from"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1949.51,"endTime":1956.89,"body":"sudden war, to the death of the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1949.51,"endTime":1956.89,"body":"person you love most in the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1956.89,"endTime":1969.46,"body":"world, to fatal illness, to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1956.89,"endTime":1969.46,"body":"earthquake, blood, fire. All of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1969.46,"endTime":1976.48,"body":"this can annihilate not only the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1969.46,"endTime":1976.48,"body":"patterns of your everyday life"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1976.48,"endTime":1982.72,"body":"that you depend on, but can"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1976.48,"endTime":1982.72,"body":"wound you so deeply, that you no"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1982.72,"endTime":1991.09,"body":"longer recognize yourself. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1982.72,"endTime":1991.09,"body":"beyond a certain place. This is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1991.09,"endTime":1999.91,"body":"something Tzvetan Todorov has"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1991.09,"endTime":1999.91,"body":"written about. Starvation, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1999.91,"endTime":2008.19,"body":"know, utter isolation that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":1999.91,"endTime":2008.19,"body":"happened, both in the Nazi death"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2008.19,"endTime":2012.9,"body":"camps and in Stalin's camps."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2008.19,"endTime":2012.9,"body":"There's beneath a certain"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2013.8,"endTime":2025.14,"body":"requirement. People cannot have"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2013.8,"endTime":2025.14,"body":"agency or the ability to care."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2026.16,"endTime":2030.72,"body":"Now, we are all vulnerable to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2026.16,"endTime":2030.72,"body":"this. Some of us are more patted"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2030.72,"endTime":2033.66,"body":"than others in middle class"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2030.72,"endTime":2033.66,"body":"lives, but that doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2034.59,"endTime":2038.97,"body":"that lightning cannot strike. It"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2034.59,"endTime":2038.97,"body":"can strike, and indeed, it does"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2038.97,"endTime":2047.73,"body":"strike. So to live and actually"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2038.97,"endTime":2047.73,"body":"know this. I do think that's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2047.73,"endTime":2048.33,"body":"helpful."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2049.02,"endTime":2052.02,"body":"And to think"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2049.02,"endTime":2052.02,"body":"that, that she herself died at"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2052.05,"endTime":2055.92,"body":"34. I mean, that's quite a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2052.05,"endTime":2055.92,"body":"cataclysmic event. I'm assuming"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2055.92,"endTime":2060.03,"body":"she didn't anticipate an early"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2055.92,"endTime":2060.03,"body":"death, or maybe she did, given"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2060.03,"endTime":2062.79,"body":"how she lived her life up until"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2060.03,"endTime":2062.79,"body":"that point."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2062.44,"endTime":2067.871,"body":"I mean, there's a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2062.44,"endTime":2067.871,"body":"very interesting, and it's been"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2067.982,"endTime":2074.743,"body":"written about a great deal, and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2067.982,"endTime":2074.743,"body":"we might as well go there, at"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2074.854,"endTime":2081.726,"body":"least, briefly, which is that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2074.854,"endTime":2081.726,"body":"Weil's masochism has been talked"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2081.837,"endTime":2088.598,"body":"about a lot. I mean, there are a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2081.837,"endTime":2088.598,"body":"number of biographies of her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2088.709,"endTime":2095.249,"body":"life. And it does seem clear"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2088.709,"endTime":2095.249,"body":"that she sought out situations"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2095.36,"endTime":2100.68,"body":"that were painful. Now, she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2095.36,"endTime":2100.68,"body":"clearly did this for"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2100.791,"endTime":2107.442,"body":"philosophical reasons as well."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2100.791,"endTime":2107.442,"body":"And we can never know. Right?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2107.553,"endTime":2114.647,"body":"The full inside being of another"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2107.553,"endTime":2114.647,"body":"person. And she proud, it seems"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2114.757,"endTime":2121.297,"body":"quite clear that she died a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2114.757,"endTime":2121.297,"body":"virgin, and that she had eating"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2121.408,"endTime":2127.504,"body":"problems always, even though she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2121.408,"endTime":2127.504,"body":"uses metaphors of food"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2127.615,"endTime":2134.488,"body":"continually in her work. One way"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2127.615,"endTime":2134.488,"body":"I would like to frame this is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2134.598,"endTime":2141.027,"body":"that because she was a woman,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2134.598,"endTime":2141.027,"body":"these aspects of her private"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2141.138,"endTime":2147.678,"body":"life have taken on a prominence"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2141.138,"endTime":2147.678,"body":"that they never do for male"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2147.789,"endTime":2154.883,"body":"philosophers. And, for example,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2147.789,"endTime":2154.883,"body":"Hume, a beloved philosopher, had"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2154.994,"endTime":2161.422,"body":"a complete nervous breakdown in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2154.994,"endTime":2161.422,"body":"1729. It took him years to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2161.533,"endTime":2167.851,"body":"recover from this. And that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2161.533,"endTime":2167.851,"body":"breakdown is always framed in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2167.962,"endTime":2173.393,"body":"terms of how hard he studied,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2167.962,"endTime":2173.393,"body":"and he couldn't get"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2173.504,"endTime":2180.044,"body":"philosophical ideas out of his"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2173.504,"endTime":2180.044,"body":"mind. So it almost becomes a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2180.155,"endTime":2186.03,"body":"kind of, you know, his"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2180.155,"endTime":2186.03,"body":"masochism. His failure to take"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2186.14,"endTime":2192.791,"body":"care of himself becomes a, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2186.14,"endTime":2192.791,"body":"know, part of this voluminous"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2192.902,"endTime":2199.552,"body":"brilliance of this hard working"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2192.902,"endTime":2199.552,"body":"young man, whereas in Weil's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2199.663,"endTime":2206.425,"body":"case, it's framed as self harm"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2199.663,"endTime":2206.425,"body":"and masochism. I think we must"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2206.536,"endTime":2213.186,"body":"attend to those differences,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2206.536,"endTime":2213.186,"body":"because when Weil died, she was"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2213.297,"endTime":2220.391,"body":"working at her peak. And despite"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2213.297,"endTime":2220.391,"body":"the fact that she suffered from"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2215.9,"endTime":2300.68,"body":"And I feel like"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2215.9,"endTime":2300.68,"body":"we can have a whole other"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2220.502,"endTime":2226.931,"body":"terrible headaches, something"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2220.502,"endTime":2226.931,"body":"that I've also suffered from"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2227.042,"endTime":2233.36,"body":"migraines, she would work"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2227.042,"endTime":2233.36,"body":"through them. And she also took"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2233.47,"endTime":2240.121,"body":"great passion and joy in her"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2233.47,"endTime":2240.121,"body":"philosophical thought, writing,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2240.232,"endTime":2246.993,"body":"and ideas. I do think there were"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2240.232,"endTime":2246.993,"body":"moments when she felt nearly"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2247.104,"endTime":2253.866,"body":"ecstatic with the pleasure of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2247.104,"endTime":2253.866,"body":"that kind of work. And again, I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2253.976,"endTime":2259.962,"body":"just want to note how"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2253.976,"endTime":2259.962,"body":"differently the male philosopher"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2260.073,"endTime":2266.834,"body":"and the female philosopher are"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2260.073,"endTime":2266.834,"body":"treated in these respects. And"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2266.945,"endTime":2273.485,"body":"that separating the private"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2266.945,"endTime":2273.485,"body":"lives of male philosophers from"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2273.596,"endTime":2280.025,"body":"their work is routine. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2273.596,"endTime":2280.025,"body":"Nietzsche too suffered from"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2280.135,"endTime":2285.788,"body":"horrifying debilitating"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2280.135,"endTime":2285.788,"body":"headaches. And yet we don't"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2285.899,"endTime":2291.774,"body":"think of him as like the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2285.899,"endTime":2291.774,"body":"migraine philosopher. Right,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2291.885,"endTime":2297.76,"body":"right. So, you know, misogyny"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2291.885,"endTime":2297.76,"body":"sneaks in all the time."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2300.68,"endTime":2305.63,"body":"conversation about the misogyny"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2300.68,"endTime":2305.63,"body":"inherent in philosophical"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2305.63,"endTime":2309.32,"body":"literature, political science"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2305.63,"endTime":2309.32,"body":"worlds and the way women's work"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2309.32,"endTime":2312.8,"body":"is characterized and discussed"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2309.32,"endTime":2312.8,"body":"versus, versus a man's."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2314.49,"endTime":2317.13,"body":"But, yeah, go"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2314.49,"endTime":2317.13,"body":"ahead. I just wanted to say"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2317.13,"endTime":2320.43,"body":"something that's very important"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2317.13,"endTime":2320.43,"body":"to me, too, that then that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2320.46,"endTime":2326.13,"body":"Simone Weil even before the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2320.46,"endTime":2326.13,"body":"French philosopher, Maurice"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2326.13,"endTime":2330.3,"body":"Merleau Ponty was talking about"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2326.13,"endTime":2330.3,"body":"embodiment, she was talking"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2330.3,"endTime":2338.61,"body":"about embodiment, as the ground"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2330.3,"endTime":2338.61,"body":"for all our thoughts and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2338.61,"endTime":2343.29,"body":"intellect. So in this way, she"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2338.61,"endTime":2343.29,"body":"was very much opposed to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2343.29,"endTime":2348.21,"body":"Descartes, separation of the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2343.29,"endTime":2348.21,"body":"mind and the body. She most"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2348.21,"endTime":2352.77,"body":"definitely separated, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2348.21,"endTime":2352.77,"body":"what you think of, of the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2352.77,"endTime":2360.03,"body":"earthly from the heavenly and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2352.77,"endTime":2360.03,"body":"from God, but she understood"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2360.72,"endTime":2368.46,"body":"deeply that we are embodied"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2360.72,"endTime":2368.46,"body":"creatures. And our thought,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2369.21,"endTime":2375.75,"body":"attention, and creativity are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2369.21,"endTime":2375.75,"body":"absolutely dependent on those"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2375.75,"endTime":2376.53,"body":"bodies."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2376.0,"endTime":2378.998,"body":"And I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2376.0,"endTime":2378.998,"body":"can in your novels like The"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2379.067,"endTime":2383.251,"body":"Blazing World, for example,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2379.067,"endTime":2383.251,"body":"Harriet burden, the main artist,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2383.32,"endTime":2387.504,"body":"for her artistic creation is"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2383.32,"endTime":2387.504,"body":"such an embodied experience and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2387.573,"endTime":2391.269,"body":"aesthetic reception and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2387.573,"endTime":2391.269,"body":"experiences also an intensely"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2391.338,"endTime":2395.591,"body":"embodied experience. Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2391.338,"endTime":2395.591,"body":"yeah, that's very much present."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2395.661,"endTime":2400.053,"body":"You can see that commitment of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2395.661,"endTime":2400.053,"body":"yours throughout throughout your"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2400.123,"endTime":2403.54,"body":"essays and Your novels? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2400.123,"endTime":2403.54,"body":"very, very clearly,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2403.57,"endTime":2407.29,"body":"I do not believe"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2403.57,"endTime":2407.29,"body":"that our minds hover above our"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2407.29,"endTime":2418.87,"body":"bodies in two separate realms. I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2407.29,"endTime":2418.87,"body":"think we are our bodies."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2420.07,"endTime":2422.71,"body":"I just have one"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2420.07,"endTime":2422.71,"body":"more question about Weil before"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2422.71,"endTime":2426.7,"body":"we transition into your essay"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2422.71,"endTime":2426.7,"body":"\"Scapegoat.\" And that question"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2426.7,"endTime":2430.54,"body":"is, so Susan Sontag reviewed the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2426.7,"endTime":2430.54,"body":"collection in which this essay"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2430.54,"endTime":2434.68,"body":"first appeared, and she called"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2430.54,"endTime":2434.68,"body":"\"Human Personality\" the one"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2434.68,"endTime":2438.97,"body":"great essay in that collection."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2434.68,"endTime":2438.97,"body":"And I'm wondering for you, what"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2439.39,"endTime":2443.35,"body":"earns \"Human personality\", the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2439.39,"endTime":2443.35,"body":"title of a great essay,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2443.8,"endTime":2446.89,"body":"For me, and I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2443.8,"endTime":2446.89,"body":"read this essay first, I think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2446.89,"endTime":2454.6,"body":"when I was in my early 20s. And,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2446.89,"endTime":2454.6,"body":"again, we can talk about"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2454.63,"endTime":2465.73,"body":"embodied responses. I felt"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2454.63,"endTime":2465.73,"body":"shaken up by the essay. And this"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2465.73,"endTime":2475.18,"body":"for me, in my own reading, is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2465.73,"endTime":2475.18,"body":"what I keep. It's not that I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2475.18,"endTime":2481.63,"body":"don't remember ideas. But the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2475.18,"endTime":2481.63,"body":"ideas worth keeping, mulling"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2481.63,"endTime":2488.59,"body":"over and thinking about, are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2481.63,"endTime":2488.59,"body":"always emotionally charged. You"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2488.59,"endTime":2495.31,"body":"know, memory is, is consolidated"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2488.59,"endTime":2495.31,"body":"by emotion. And the great"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2495.31,"endTime":2500.53,"body":"writers for me, always have that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2495.31,"endTime":2500.53,"body":"passionate kick, whether you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2500.53,"endTime":2508.63,"body":"agree with them or not, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2500.53,"endTime":2508.63,"body":"know. And so, what makes this a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2508.63,"endTime":2518.35,"body":"great essay is, I think, the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2508.63,"endTime":2518.35,"body":"courage and passion of her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2518.35,"endTime":2526.87,"body":"thought, which refuses the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2518.35,"endTime":2526.87,"body":"truisms and platitudes of her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2526.87,"endTime":2532.24,"body":"day. And they included very much"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2526.87,"endTime":2532.24,"body":"the idea of, of human rights,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2532.3,"endTime":2538.9,"body":"you know, that she didn't live"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2532.3,"endTime":2538.9,"body":"into the post war period, but"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2538.9,"endTime":2543.85,"body":"they were working on the idea"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2538.9,"endTime":2543.85,"body":"that you would have a list of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2543.85,"endTime":2550.66,"body":"human rights. And, and she did"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2543.85,"endTime":2550.66,"body":"not think this was enough."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2551.95,"endTime":2554.35,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2551.95,"endTime":2554.35,"body":"couldn't agree more that the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2554.35,"endTime":2557.83,"body":"things don't stay in my memory"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2554.35,"endTime":2557.83,"body":"unless they move me emotionally"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2557.89,"endTime":2562.81,"body":"in some way. Otherwise, I will"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2557.89,"endTime":2562.81,"body":"forget I even read what it is or"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2562.81,"endTime":2564.4,"body":"encountered what it is."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2564.73,"endTime":2567.01,"body":"Yeah, there's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2564.73,"endTime":2567.01,"body":"actually evidence for this, even"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2567.01,"endTime":2573.73,"body":"at a molecular level. So I think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2567.01,"endTime":2573.73,"body":"we're quite safe. Arguing that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2574.3,"endTime":2577.63,"body":"you forget what you don't care"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2574.3,"endTime":2577.63,"body":"about. Right?"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2578.83,"endTime":2581.11,"body":"Which, yes,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2578.83,"endTime":2581.11,"body":"it's in terms of academic"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2581.11,"endTime":2583.84,"body":"criticism, there's a lot I don't"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2581.11,"endTime":2583.84,"body":"care about. So there's a lot I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2583.84,"endTime":2584.44,"body":"forgot."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2586.67,"endTime":2592.04,"body":"There truly, that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2586.67,"endTime":2592.04,"body":"is, I think institutional and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2592.07,"endTime":2604.82,"body":"Weil would have really strongly"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2592.07,"endTime":2604.82,"body":"opposed the churning machinery"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2605.36,"endTime":2613.67,"body":"of institutional academic"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2605.36,"endTime":2613.67,"body":"writing. So what I think of as"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2613.67,"endTime":2616.79,"body":"small writing coming out of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2613.67,"endTime":2616.79,"body":"particular, discipline"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2617.57,"endTime":2622.04,"body":"disciplines, this includes the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2617.57,"endTime":2622.04,"body":"sciences, by the way, where you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2622.04,"endTime":2627.08,"body":"trot out the usual suspects. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2622.04,"endTime":2627.08,"body":"my feeling is that if I can look"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2627.38,"endTime":2634.16,"body":"in the back of a book, at the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2627.38,"endTime":2634.16,"body":"bibliography and know simply"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2634.16,"endTime":2637.13,"body":"from looking at the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2634.16,"endTime":2637.13,"body":"bibliography, exactly what is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2637.13,"endTime":2642.62,"body":"going to be written in the first"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2637.13,"endTime":2642.62,"body":"part of the book. I don't need"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2642.62,"endTime":2647.78,"body":"to read that. And we have become"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2642.62,"endTime":2647.78,"body":"so specialized, so"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2649.01,"endTime":2654.29,"body":"institutionalized, if you will,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2649.01,"endTime":2654.29,"body":"fragmentation in our thinking"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2654.68,"endTime":2662.69,"body":"that this is, I believe, a very"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2654.68,"endTime":2662.69,"body":"damaging aspect of contemporary"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2662.69,"endTime":2672.08,"body":"life. crossing borders something"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2662.69,"endTime":2672.08,"body":"that Weil did routinely is all"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2672.08,"endTime":2678.47,"body":"often frowned upon in academic"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2672.08,"endTime":2678.47,"body":"institutions if people want to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2678.47,"endTime":2679.16,"body":"get ahead."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2680.17,"endTime":2682.99,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2680.17,"endTime":2682.99,"body":"I've personally encountered that"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2682.99,"endTime":2689.26,"body":"resistance, yes. So you've"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2682.99,"endTime":2689.26,"body":"selected the essay \"Scapegoat\""},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2689.29,"endTime":2692.44,"body":"to pair with \"Human Personality\""},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2689.29,"endTime":2692.44,"body":"and \"Scapegoat\" is the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2692.44,"endTime":2695.44,"body":"concluding essay of your most"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2692.44,"endTime":2695.44,"body":"recent collection mothers,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2695.44,"endTime":2699.13,"body":"fathers and others and in an"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2695.44,"endTime":2699.13,"body":"interview with Lesley Lindsay"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2699.13,"endTime":2703.09,"body":"and early 2022 you wrote that"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2699.13,"endTime":2703.09,"body":"\"Scapegoat\" began as part of a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2703.09,"endTime":2706.78,"body":"failed novel, when I put in a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2703.09,"endTime":2706.78,"body":"drawer to languish forever, but"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2706.78,"endTime":2709.96,"body":"I retrieved the pertinent pages,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2706.78,"endTime":2709.96,"body":"revisited them and turn them"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2709.96,"endTime":2713.11,"body":"into a long essay about the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2709.96,"endTime":2713.11,"body":"meanings of that terrible"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2713.11,"endTime":2716.41,"body":"violence and their resonance"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2713.11,"endTime":2716.41,"body":"with the political hatred we are"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2716.41,"endTime":2720.1,"body":"witnessing now. So can you say"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2716.41,"endTime":2720.1,"body":"more specifically, what"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2720.1,"endTime":2723.46,"body":"compelled you to return to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2720.1,"endTime":2723.46,"body":"escape go when you did?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2724.89,"endTime":2733.14,"body":"Yes, I think I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2724.89,"endTime":2733.14,"body":"mentioned it as a connection to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2733.44,"endTime":2740.61,"body":"Weil because it deals with"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2733.44,"endTime":2740.61,"body":"affliction, what she called"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2740.61,"endTime":2746.31,"body":"affliction, Malaz, and what I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2740.61,"endTime":2746.31,"body":"think is closer to abjection."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2748.56,"endTime":2760.86,"body":"This is a terrible, small story"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2748.56,"endTime":2760.86,"body":"about the sadistic torture and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2760.89,"endTime":2767.91,"body":"humiliation of a teenage girl by"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2760.89,"endTime":2767.91,"body":"a woman and a group of children,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2767.94,"endTime":2773.64,"body":"a 37 year old woman and a group"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2767.94,"endTime":2773.64,"body":"of children, poor white people"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2773.88,"endTime":2784.59,"body":"in Indianapolis. It was a huge"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2773.88,"endTime":2784.59,"body":"story in 1965. And it haunted"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2784.59,"endTime":2791.07,"body":"me, you know, question to be"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2784.59,"endTime":2791.07,"body":"answered as of course, how"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2791.19,"endTime":2798.12,"body":"exactly does this happen? What"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2791.19,"endTime":2798.12,"body":"does it mean? There is nothing,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2798.21,"endTime":2803.28,"body":"it's Sylvia Likens was is the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2798.21,"endTime":2803.28,"body":"name of the victim. And, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2803.28,"endTime":2808.92,"body":"know, it is so terrible. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2803.28,"endTime":2808.92,"body":"they forced her to drink, drink"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2808.95,"endTime":2816.21,"body":"urine, they wrote on her her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2808.95,"endTime":2816.21,"body":"body with the hot poker, I am a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2816.21,"endTime":2822.48,"body":"prostitute. The things that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2816.21,"endTime":2822.48,"body":"happened to this girl, teenage"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2822.48,"endTime":2829.11,"body":"girl are so gruesome. And I use"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2822.48,"endTime":2829.11,"body":"parts of the trial transcripts"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2829.11,"endTime":2832.8,"body":"that are available to everybody"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2829.11,"endTime":2832.8,"body":"going through them was pretty"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2832.8,"endTime":2840.57,"body":"harrowing. But I wanted to use"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2832.8,"endTime":2840.57,"body":"this small story as a way to ask"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2840.57,"endTime":2849.33,"body":"questions about how such things"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2840.57,"endTime":2849.33,"body":"can happen on a very small"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2849.36,"endTime":2856.98,"body":"scale, but then also on a larger"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2849.36,"endTime":2856.98,"body":"scale. When scapegoats become"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2857.04,"endTime":2868.41,"body":"important, I do believe that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2857.04,"endTime":2868.41,"body":"stories of lynchings racism,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2869.43,"endTime":2877.89,"body":"that the politics of the Nazi"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2869.43,"endTime":2877.89,"body":"Reich involved the scapegoat"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2877.95,"endTime":2884.4,"body":"mechanism, which is why the one"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2877.95,"endTime":2884.4,"body":"philosopher that keeps coming"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2884.4,"endTime":2886.95,"body":"back there are other people"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2884.4,"endTime":2886.95,"body":"mentioned, but the one that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2886.95,"endTime":2890.91,"body":"keeps coming back is Rene"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2886.95,"endTime":2890.91,"body":"Girard, who wrote specifically"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2890.94,"endTime":2895.26,"body":"about the scapegoat when he"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2890.94,"endTime":2895.26,"body":"called the scapegoat mechanism,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2895.29,"endTime":2903.24,"body":"which is when an entire"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2895.29,"endTime":2903.24,"body":"community turns against a single"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2903.24,"endTime":2911.55,"body":"person in his fable as a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2903.24,"endTime":2911.55,"body":"sacrifice to cleanse the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2911.55,"endTime":2916.83,"body":"community of what are actually"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2911.55,"endTime":2916.83,"body":"their own problems. Right. It's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2916.86,"endTime":2922.44,"body":"a it's a beautiful, mystical"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2916.86,"endTime":2922.44,"body":"framework for the question of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2922.44,"endTime":2932.07,"body":"the scapegoat. But I'm trying to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2922.44,"endTime":2932.07,"body":"look at the bigger question and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2932.1,"endTime":2939.48,"body":"also ask, what is it in all of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2932.1,"endTime":2939.48,"body":"us, right? That makes the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2939.48,"endTime":2947.97,"body":"scapegoat even possible. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2939.48,"endTime":2947.97,"body":"when we do this to other people,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2947.97,"endTime":2953.79,"body":"when human beings do this to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2947.97,"endTime":2953.79,"body":"other people, they do lose all"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2953.88,"endTime":2960.93,"body":"agency, they are not able to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2953.88,"endTime":2960.93,"body":"climb to that place of action."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2962.34,"endTime":2966.69,"body":"They are forced into a kind of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2962.34,"endTime":2966.69,"body":"horrible passivity and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2966.69,"endTime":2972.78,"body":"submission. That that really"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":2966.69,"endTime":2972.78,"body":"robs them of their humanity."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2975.0,"endTime":2977.64,"body":"To conclude, I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2975.0,"endTime":2977.64,"body":"want to ask about your writing"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2977.64,"endTime":2981.66,"body":"more generally. And this essay"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2977.64,"endTime":2981.66,"body":"is one example of it. The"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2981.66,"endTime":2984.78,"body":"Blazing Worlds is another and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2981.66,"endTime":2984.78,"body":"it's that you're constantly"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2984.81,"endTime":2987.45,"body":"pulling on a ton of different"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2984.81,"endTime":2987.45,"body":"sources from a variety of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2987.45,"endTime":2990.51,"body":"disciplines. I mean, you're a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2987.45,"endTime":2990.51,"body":"lecturer in psychiatry at"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2990.51,"endTime":2994.47,"body":"Cornell. And so the fact that"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2990.51,"endTime":2994.47,"body":"you started getting your you got"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2994.47,"endTime":2997.89,"body":"your PhD in English at Columbia,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2994.47,"endTime":2997.89,"body":"and then now you've become an"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2997.89,"endTime":3001.85,"body":"expert and in Oh, whole host of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":2997.89,"endTime":3001.85,"body":"disciplines, you're constantly"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3001.85,"endTime":3005.57,"body":"engaging them in your work. And"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3001.85,"endTime":3005.57,"body":"I'm wondering, one, how do you"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3005.57,"endTime":3010.88,"body":"do it? And two, why is it so"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3005.57,"endTime":3010.88,"body":"valuable to seek answers to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3010.91,"endTime":3012.89,"body":"questions we have far and wide?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3013.59,"endTime":3017.34,"body":"Yeah, so the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3013.59,"endTime":3017.34,"body":"first answer is that I'm old."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3019.62,"endTime":3027.84,"body":"I'm 68 years old? And if you are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3019.62,"endTime":3027.84,"body":"a person who reads and follows"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3027.84,"endTime":3034.98,"body":"your nose over time, the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3027.84,"endTime":3034.98,"body":"necessary truth is that it"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3034.98,"endTime":3045.09,"body":"accumulates. Very simple answer,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3034.98,"endTime":3045.09,"body":"I'm old, I've accumulated, what"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3045.09,"endTime":3052.14,"body":"I've accumulated, I think, is a"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3045.09,"endTime":3052.14,"body":"different business because, as I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3052.14,"endTime":3057.66,"body":"said, we live in a world of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3052.14,"endTime":3057.66,"body":"specialization. And we rely on"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3057.69,"endTime":3065.82,"body":"people who have a kind of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3057.69,"endTime":3065.82,"body":"additive reality, they stay very"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3066.3,"endTime":3070.83,"body":"strictly inside their field, and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3066.3,"endTime":3070.83,"body":"learn more and more and more and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3070.83,"endTime":3077.1,"body":"more about it. Now, I have to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3070.83,"endTime":3077.1,"body":"say that we often welcome this"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3077.1,"endTime":3082.14,"body":"kind of expertise, if you think"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3077.1,"endTime":3082.14,"body":"about specialties in medicine,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3082.14,"endTime":3086.01,"body":"for example, we can be grateful"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3082.14,"endTime":3086.01,"body":"to those people who have just"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3086.01,"endTime":3091.26,"body":"spent their whole lives learning"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3086.01,"endTime":3091.26,"body":"about a particular kind of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3091.26,"endTime":3098.67,"body":"cancer, or, you know, we gain as"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3091.26,"endTime":3098.67,"body":"a society from this, at the same"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3098.67,"endTime":3107.4,"body":"time, I have spent a life you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3098.67,"endTime":3107.4,"body":"know, both following my nose,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3107.4,"endTime":3110.91,"body":"wherever it leads, and that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3107.4,"endTime":3110.91,"body":"means crossing disciplines. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3110.91,"endTime":3116.49,"body":"it means running into material"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3110.91,"endTime":3116.49,"body":"that I really do not understand"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3116.49,"endTime":3120.75,"body":"do not have a background in. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3116.49,"endTime":3120.75,"body":"what that requires of me, I'm"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3120.78,"endTime":3130.41,"body":"sorry to say, is to go back to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3120.78,"endTime":3130.41,"body":"101. Yes, and, and, you know, no"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3130.41,"endTime":3135.27,"body":"one can know everything, it's,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3130.41,"endTime":3135.27,"body":"it's, it's absurd, but if I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3135.27,"endTime":3142.47,"body":"become very interested in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3135.27,"endTime":3142.47,"body":"something, then I begin at the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3142.47,"endTime":3151.17,"body":"beginning and work through it."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3142.47,"endTime":3151.17,"body":"And sometimes, in order to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3151.2,"endTime":3156.99,"body":"challenge myself, I do what I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3151.2,"endTime":3156.99,"body":"call reading against myself, I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3156.99,"endTime":3167.55,"body":"read material that I know will"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3156.99,"endTime":3167.55,"body":"antagonize me. Now, this does"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3167.55,"endTime":3172.98,"body":"not mean reading, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3167.55,"endTime":3172.98,"body":"right wing propaganda or"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3172.98,"endTime":3177.06,"body":"anything like that, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3172.98,"endTime":3177.06,"body":"intellectual work, for example,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3177.06,"endTime":3184.17,"body":"I spent quite a long time trying"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3177.06,"endTime":3184.17,"body":"to figure out symbolic logic"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3184.2,"endTime":3189.42,"body":"and, and how it works. In"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3184.2,"endTime":3189.42,"body":"analytical philosophy, this is"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3189.42,"endTime":3199.92,"body":"very much against my grain. But"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3189.42,"endTime":3199.92,"body":"I found that those exercises"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3200.94,"endTime":3208.62,"body":"really do have an expanding"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3200.94,"endTime":3208.62,"body":"effect on your consciousness, if"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3208.62,"endTime":3212.52,"body":"you will. And they create a kind"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3208.62,"endTime":3212.52,"body":"of flexibility that I am"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3212.58,"endTime":3219.27,"body":"absolutely certain would not be"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3212.58,"endTime":3219.27,"body":"possible. If I hadn't, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3219.3,"endTime":3225.33,"body":"tested and pushed myself in, in"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3219.3,"endTime":3225.33,"body":"those ways, because we all like"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3225.33,"endTime":3234.48,"body":"to read what confirms what we"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3225.33,"endTime":3234.48,"body":"already know and love, I can"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3234.48,"endTime":3241.86,"body":"care about what's much harder,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3234.48,"endTime":3241.86,"body":"is to enter into arenas that are"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3241.89,"endTime":3250.41,"body":"alien to us, that we're stupid"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3241.89,"endTime":3250.41,"body":"about, that require tremendous"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3250.41,"endTime":3258.33,"body":"humility, to begin to learn"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3250.41,"endTime":3258.33,"body":"them. And for whatever reason, I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3258.33,"endTime":3264.03,"body":"have continued to have an"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3258.33,"endTime":3264.03,"body":"appetite for doing that."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3264.99,"endTime":3267.75,"body":"So much of what"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3264.99,"endTime":3267.75,"body":"you just said, really resonates"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3268.17,"endTime":3272.43,"body":"with me. A lot of my, I just"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3268.17,"endTime":3272.43,"body":"finished my PhD in English at"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3272.43,"endTime":3275.34,"body":"UVA. And on the one hand, I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3272.43,"endTime":3275.34,"body":"often joke with my adviser and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3275.34,"endTime":3277.74,"body":"we both feet we often joke"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3275.34,"endTime":3277.74,"body":"together that we don't feel at"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3277.74,"endTime":3280.95,"body":"home in an English department"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3277.74,"endTime":3280.95,"body":"because our interests are too"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3281.43,"endTime":3287.22,"body":"expansive. And we're criticized"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3281.43,"endTime":3287.22,"body":"by English professors for having"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3287.22,"endTime":3290.61,"body":"these interests in sociology,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3287.22,"endTime":3290.61,"body":"and political theory and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3290.61,"endTime":3294.3,"body":"philosophy. And then on the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3290.61,"endTime":3294.3,"body":"other hand, we're also you're"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3294.33,"endTime":3296.67,"body":"you're speaking about kind of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3294.33,"endTime":3296.67,"body":"reading against the grain and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3296.67,"endTime":3299.22,"body":"reading against yourself. I"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3296.67,"endTime":3299.22,"body":"mean, reading against the grain"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3299.22,"endTime":3304.02,"body":"of yourself. And, yeah, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3299.22,"endTime":3304.02,"body":"my work deals with sort of the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3304.05,"endTime":3306.96,"body":"ethics of argument and"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3304.05,"endTime":3306.96,"body":"interpretation. And so thinking"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3306.96,"endTime":3310.29,"body":"about, Oh, when we enter into"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3306.96,"endTime":3310.29,"body":"conversation with people we"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3310.29,"endTime":3314.49,"body":"disagree with, how are we doing"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3310.29,"endTime":3314.49,"body":"it? And often I'm seeing that we"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3314.49,"endTime":3317.58,"body":"don't do it very well. We're"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3314.49,"endTime":3317.58,"body":"often imposing our own terms"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3317.58,"endTime":3319.89,"body":"onto them, and not even"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3317.58,"endTime":3319.89,"body":"listening to them. Because"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3319.89,"endTime":3323.04,"body":"that's, they're coming from a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3319.89,"endTime":3323.04,"body":"space from which we, which we"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3323.04,"endTime":3326.88,"body":"disagree, and I see that as a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3323.04,"endTime":3326.88,"body":"harm to the work that we do in"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3326.88,"endTime":3330.12,"body":"academic circles. But just to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3326.88,"endTime":3330.12,"body":"say that, yeah, what you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3331.89,"endTime":3334.92,"body":"use your"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3331.89,"endTime":3334.92,"body":"disciplinary, you know, I'm I,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3334.95,"endTime":3341.1,"body":"I'm a person who's often"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3334.95,"endTime":3341.1,"body":"drafted, as the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3341.4,"endTime":3346.98,"body":"marginal. But let's bring her"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3341.4,"endTime":3346.98,"body":"in, because she can talk about"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3346.98,"endTime":3353.82,"body":"several things. I'm a bridge,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3346.98,"endTime":3353.82,"body":"I'm the bridge, okay? Often,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3354.18,"endTime":3358.38,"body":"this really doesn't work at all."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3354.18,"endTime":3358.38,"body":"I mean, people just talk right?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3359.01,"endTime":3361.98,"body":"past each other, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3359.01,"endTime":3361.98,"body":"bring artists together with"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3361.98,"endTime":3370.5,"body":"scientists. And it all goes"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3361.98,"endTime":3370.5,"body":"terribly wrong. What, what I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3370.5,"endTime":3376.92,"body":"wants to I gave a lecture at"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3370.5,"endTime":3376.92,"body":"Mass General, was the kind of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3377.58,"endTime":3382.98,"body":"Grand Rounds lecture, they bring"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3377.58,"endTime":3382.98,"body":"people in. And I lectured on on"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3384.48,"endTime":3388.98,"body":"neurology and hysteria,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3384.48,"endTime":3388.98,"body":"particularly what this meant,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3388.98,"endTime":3395.1,"body":"blah, blah, blah. But"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3388.98,"endTime":3395.1,"body":"afterwards, I was taken to visit"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3395.97,"endTime":3401.67,"body":"young scientists who are working"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3395.97,"endTime":3401.67,"body":"specifically on Alzheimer's"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3401.67,"endTime":3406.92,"body":"disease. And they gave me"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3401.67,"endTime":3406.92,"body":"presentations, I asked them"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3406.92,"endTime":3412.14,"body":"questions. And then they were"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3406.92,"endTime":3412.14,"body":"allowed to ask me and this young"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3412.14,"endTime":3415.59,"body":"scientist said, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3412.14,"endTime":3415.59,"body":"listened to your talk, and it"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3415.59,"endTime":3423.21,"body":"was clear that you believe that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3415.59,"endTime":3423.21,"body":"reading philosophy and history"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3423.21,"endTime":3429.33,"body":"and literature for a scientist,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3423.21,"endTime":3429.33,"body":"was a good thing. But he said,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3429.33,"endTime":3433.44,"body":"You know, I hang around, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3429.33,"endTime":3433.44,"body":"looking at these slides of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3433.47,"endTime":3439.26,"body":"brains, scans all day. So what,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3433.47,"endTime":3439.26,"body":"you know, what could this do for"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3439.26,"endTime":3448.74,"body":"me, and, and I said, you know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3439.26,"endTime":3448.74,"body":"I'm not advertising this,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3448.74,"endTime":3451.47,"body":"because I think you'll be more"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3448.74,"endTime":3451.47,"body":"charming at cocktail parties,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3451.47,"endTime":3456.33,"body":"which you will be, but because"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3451.47,"endTime":3456.33,"body":"it can help you in your own"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3456.33,"endTime":3464.7,"body":"work. And this, I have found to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3456.33,"endTime":3464.7,"body":"be true, that if you keep"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3465.03,"endTime":3471.51,"body":"digging your row, you know, as"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3465.03,"endTime":3471.51,"body":"in your vegetable garden, and"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3471.51,"endTime":3477.81,"body":"it's just tomatoes. And you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3471.51,"endTime":3477.81,"body":"never look to the left to the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3477.81,"endTime":3481.05,"body":"right, and look at any of the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3477.81,"endTime":3481.05,"body":"other plants that are growing,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3482.04,"endTime":3489.9,"body":"you will run into dead ends,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3482.04,"endTime":3489.9,"body":"that can only be solved through"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3489.93,"endTime":3495.21,"body":"another way of thinking. And I"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3489.93,"endTime":3495.21,"body":"deeply believe that the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3495.21,"endTime":3500.91,"body":"humanities offer the sciences,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3495.21,"endTime":3500.91,"body":"forms of flexibility of thought"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3500.91,"endTime":3506.04,"body":"that the sciences often do not"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3500.91,"endTime":3506.04,"body":"have. I also think the sciences"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3506.07,"endTime":3512.46,"body":"offer the humanities, certain"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3506.07,"endTime":3512.46,"body":"forms of rigorous thinking that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3512.46,"endTime":3519.33,"body":"are often alien in the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3512.46,"endTime":3519.33,"body":"humanities. And that at least"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3520.59,"endTime":3525.63,"body":"understanding something you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3520.59,"endTime":3525.63,"body":"mentioned earlier, the idea that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3525.63,"endTime":3533.85,"body":"there are many ways to know,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3525.63,"endTime":3533.85,"body":"right, so that that means that"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3533.85,"endTime":3541.26,"body":"we can be a piston illogical,"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3533.85,"endTime":3541.26,"body":"pluralists. Right. Knowing does"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3541.26,"endTime":3545.82,"body":"not mean that there's only one"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3541.26,"endTime":3545.82,"body":"path. There are a number of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3545.82,"endTime":3550.02,"body":"paths of exploring the same"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3545.82,"endTime":3550.02,"body":"problem, you will not get the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3550.02,"endTime":3555.96,"body":"same answer. I'm afraid you"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3550.02,"endTime":3555.96,"body":"wrote. But as I said in an"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3555.96,"endTime":3561.36,"body":"essay, what you will get the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3555.96,"endTime":3561.36,"body":"focus zone of ambiguity, right?"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3561.63,"endTime":3565.14,"body":"Out of that focus out of"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3561.63,"endTime":3565.14,"body":"ambiguity, you will be able to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3565.14,"endTime":3569.55,"body":"ask the next best question. And"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3565.14,"endTime":3569.55,"body":"that's a beautiful thing."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3569.97,"endTime":3572.58,"body":"Well, Siri,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3569.97,"endTime":3572.58,"body":"there's so much I would love to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3572.58,"endTime":3576.15,"body":"talk to you about No, no that"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3572.58,"endTime":3576.15,"body":"yeah, I can Yeah, no, you're not"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3576.15,"endTime":3580.62,"body":"you're not I want to be I want"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3576.15,"endTime":3580.62,"body":"to be mindful of your time. And"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3580.62,"endTime":3583.38,"body":"just thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3580.62,"endTime":3583.38,"body":"joining us. It's been a real"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3583.38,"endTime":3585.9,"body":"thrill to speak with you today."},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3585.9,"endTime":3587.94,"body":"Well, you were"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3585.9,"endTime":3587.94,"body":"wonderful, and I really"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3587.94,"endTime":3592.2,"body":"appreciate your having me and it"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3587.94,"endTime":3592.2,"body":"was fun. Actually, it was fun"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3592.23,"endTime":3598.83,"body":"and interesting to return to the"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3592.23,"endTime":3598.83,"body":"essay and, you know, return to"},{"speaker":"Siri Hustvedt","startTime":3598.83,"endTime":3599.25,"body":"her."},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3601.65,"endTime":3604.17,"body":"Thanks everyone"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3601.65,"endTime":3604.17,"body":"for joining us for this episode"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3604.17,"endTime":3607.68,"body":"of selected essays. We'd like to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3604.17,"endTime":3607.68,"body":"thank Joe Coleman for editing"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3607.68,"endTime":3611.28,"body":"the podcast and Mike Duffy of"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3607.68,"endTime":3611.28,"body":"hand habits for contributing the"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3611.28,"endTime":3614.7,"body":"original music. We hope you'll"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3611.28,"endTime":3614.7,"body":"tune in to our next episode"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3614.73,"endTime":3617.82,"body":"where we'll be talking with a"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3614.73,"endTime":3617.82,"body":"poor batata Polly about Maeve"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3617.82,"endTime":3622.02,"body":"Brennan's last overtures. As"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3617.82,"endTime":3622.02,"body":"always, please subscribe"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3622.02,"endTime":3624.81,"body":"wherever you get your podcasts"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3622.02,"endTime":3624.81,"body":"and if you have questions,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3624.81,"endTime":3629.04,"body":"comments or anything else, send"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3624.81,"endTime":3629.04,"body":"an email to selected essays at"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3629.04,"endTime":3633.9,"body":"the point mag.com. We'd love to"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3629.04,"endTime":3633.9,"body":"hear from you. Until next time,"},{"speaker":"Jessica Swoboda","startTime":3633.9,"endTime":3634.77,"body":"listeners."}]}