Ever wonder if life's goodness is a solid truth or just a fleeting idea? Christa, Bob, and Jeff tackle this profound topic, revealing how our beliefs and actions may indeed carve out a slice of heaven here on earth. Through the lens of both secular and Christian worldviews, our latest episode delves into the diverse interpretations of what it means to live well. We bring to light the stark contrast between a life valued by worldly standards versus one enriched by the certainty of divine grace, prompting a thought-provoking discussion on the essence of a truly 'good' life.
Does the pursuit of extending our time here betray a deeper yearning for eternity, or is it an affront to the natural order as crafted by faith? This episode isn't shy about pulling back the curtain on the ethical conundrums posed by life extension technologies. We dissect Apostle Paul's musings on suffering, contentment, and the Christian concept of life's inherent value, juxtaposed with society's shifting moral compass. It's a conversation that not only scrutinizes the subjective measures of a good life but also challenges listeners to reflect on their own morality in the face of advancing science and technology.
Concluding our soul-stirring journey, we explore the profound fulfillment that comes from spiritual wealth, transcending the fleeting satisfaction of material gains. The stories of biblical figures like Job, and even the transformative journey of Jeffrey Dahmer, serve as powerful examples of redemption and the significance of a life anchored in faith. Join us as we ponder whether our attachments to the material world obstruct our spiritual evolution and how embracing God's promise may lead to the ultimate contentment. This episode is an invitation to affirm life's beauty, informed by an unshakable belief in God's grace.
Ever wonder if life's goodness is a solid truth or just a fleeting idea? Christa, Bob, and Jeff tackle this profound topic, revealing how our beliefs and actions may indeed carve out a slice of heaven here on earth. Through the lens of both secular and Christian worldviews, our latest episode delves into the diverse interpretations of what it means to live well. We bring to light the stark contrast between a life valued by worldly standards versus one enriched by the certainty of divine grace, prompting a thought-provoking discussion on the essence of a truly 'good' life.
Does the pursuit of extending our time here betray a deeper yearning for eternity, or is it an affront to the natural order as crafted by faith? This episode isn't shy about pulling back the curtain on the ethical conundrums posed by life extension technologies. We dissect Apostle Paul's musings on suffering, contentment, and the Christian concept of life's inherent value, juxtaposed with society's shifting moral compass. It's a conversation that not only scrutinizes the subjective measures of a good life but also challenges listeners to reflect on their own morality in the face of advancing science and technology.
Concluding our soul-stirring journey, we explore the profound fulfillment that comes from spiritual wealth, transcending the fleeting satisfaction of material gains. The stories of biblical figures like Job, and even the transformative journey of Jeffrey Dahmer, serve as powerful examples of redemption and the significance of a life anchored in faith. Join us as we ponder whether our attachments to the material world obstruct our spiritual evolution and how embracing God's promise may lead to the ultimate contentment. This episode is an invitation to affirm life's beauty, informed by an unshakable belief in God's grace.
On today's episode.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Speaker 1:Hi and welcome back. I'm Krista Poetrez and I'm here today with pastors Bob Fleishman and Jeff Samuelson. We just got through the Christmas season and I always think of the movie it's a Wonderful Life and how George Bailey, the main character he's got his fair share of problems but in the end things really seem to work out and come together and you leave the movie feeling really good about things that have happened and just life in general and already, even though we had problems and conflict, it worked out. It was good. When I kind of think of today's topic too thinking about life is good we hear this sometimes like yeah, life is good or the good life. Are these just positive thinking mottos? Is this something that we as Christians should really think like? Oh yeah, that's the way it is, that life is good or is this just some type of empty bumper sticker slogan?
Speaker 2:Yes and no, and that's not just a cop out answer. It's going to vary depending on who you are and your situation in life. For people who are without Christian faith, who don't really have hope as we understand hope, life is good is not going to be much more than a positive thinking or a slogan. I'm comfortable with when my life is good. Maybe if they're enjoying good things at the moment, they're going to feel, yeah, this is true, yeah, this is wonderful. I'm going to buy all the coffee mugs and the t-shirts and all that and say life is good and blessed and everything like that.
Speaker 2:But then when things turn bad, when someone gets sick or they lose a job or whatever it might be, they're going to change their tune because suddenly they don't perceive life as good. But for believers who are children of God or followers of Christ, who have every confidence that what's around the bend is infinitely better than what we're leaving behind, we can properly affirm that life is good because even as we see sin within ourselves and other people, as we see corruption in the world, we also see God's love and His grace at work. We see and appreciate His wonders, his gifts, and we are able to recognize that life itself, just being alive, is a most wonderful gift, and it's good.
Speaker 4:I always see that life is good and you've got two primary words, life and good, with a connector and I'm going okay, what is life? What do we mean by life and what do we mean by good? First of all, good is really culturally defined. When I look at or I watch the shows on life in the bush countries of Africa and I'm going to that it doesn't look like a good life. When I look at American history 200 years ago, I mean what? You didn't have indoor plumbing. That's not a good life. You didn't have electricity that's not a good life. And you become very accustomed to the things that you like. So how do you get there? What are you trying to do?
Speaker 4:I've been beating this drum just lately here on the idea that we become obsessed, especially in our culture, but I think worldwide, all people trying to create a version of heaven on earth. So we try to do that in a way of tweaking our existence in such a way to make it the best it can possibly be, which is interesting, which is why I make it a big deal to plant a lot of flowers in the spring and so forth. And my neighbor doesn't. And you talk to him, he'll say he's got a good life, and I'll say I've got a good life. It's subjective, but he'll do things with his life. He bought a big boat so he could be out on the lake. I have no use for that, and so, in other words, it's a very subjective thing.
Speaker 4:But in the end, what are we really doing? We're really trying to create as close to heaven as we possibly can, which is why, if you think about it the way you decorate your house, the way you pick out a car, the way you do things you go and you're I'm a little bit cold. We're going to turn up the thermostat. You're trying to create this perfect environment and it's always elusive. And yet life can be good by the opportunities it presents, but it has to do. It's really. What I'm talking about is perspective.
Speaker 1:Right. So you would probably say that most people in our world do believe that life is good.
Speaker 4:I think so. I think they view life as good and something we can make even better.
Speaker 1:I think that's the way they do. Would you agree with that, Chuck?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm not sure that people would necessarily always articulate it that way and say life is good. But in terms of how people live, I mean, they even think that well being alive is much better than the alternative.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, life is good. If everyone was we're convinced that life is bad, we'd have a lot more suicide. We'd have a lot more anti-social and even anti-life behavior from people than we do. I mean, it's not saying there's none, but there's not what we would see if everyone simply went through life saying, yeah, this is not good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and I think too, just from the aspect of like, if you think that this is all there is, then this has to be better than not existing. I mean, for most people right. And so I think there is that aspect of people just thinking, well, all right, there's nothing else, so this is good. But I mean, I know, like you know, for us as Christians and we'll get into that too just the kind of the difference of that. You know, it's not like that many people would maybe come out and say life is bad. But you know, do we see that perspective behind some of the ideas and decisions and some of these life issues that we talk about?
Speaker 2:I'd say it's fundamentally behind a lot of it. You look at the so much of the argumentation for abortion, for instance. Well, why is it right to abort this child? Well, it would be cruel to bring a child into this situation because life would not be good for that child. Being born into poverty, being born to a single mother, this injustice that we're facing in our society, or whatever. Those are so many of the excuses like well, it just life isn't good. Or, alternatively, if I, as a mother, or you as a mother, are forced to carry this child to term, that would make your life not good and we can't have that. So very much of the argumentation for things like that is based on the idea life is not good or it won't be good if we allow this.
Speaker 4:So 2023 has been called the year of life extension. There's been all sorts of exploration, ranging from CRISPR technology on to other discoveries of using mRNA and so forth, in order to try to extend the lifetime of people. And the problem is that when you live by this model that life is good, is you inevitably run against the times when it doesn't feel that way. When a malady affects you whether it's disability, cancer, whatever it is it brings you out, you say, well, now life's not good, or this is not a life worth continued living. So you get feel for the death of dignity, movement and so forth. So it all has a way of playing in, but it has to do with this worldview that you have. And again I would get back to if this is all you have, like the Apostle Paul said, if there is no resurrection, then we are to be pitied more than anyone else. I mean, then this is all the life You've got to get all the gusto you can.
Speaker 4:I've often said that if you live with the idea that this is all the life that you can have, this is all you get, then sometimes people have to die because they get in your way. You know, sometimes it's the unborn child, sometimes it's the aging grandparent. People have to get out of the way. They give me the best life I can possibly have. But the reality is, if you are a Christian and you adopt this mentality that I have to keep moving, you have to be deeply troubled when the Apostle Paul says I rejoice in my sufferings, you're going well, no, no, that doesn't fit. It doesn't fit my worldview, and so I think a lot of times the way those people get by is you just don't hear it, it's parts that you skip. And yet the reality is Paul said that there's a goodness even in hardship, and I think when you, I think the goal really in preaching Christian teaching, one of the goals is to get people to realize that that even in the worst of times, life can be good.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think you touched on this a little bit too, just like this perspective issue as well. So we've said generally people think like, oh yeah, like life is good. They really maybe mean like my life is good, right now or yeah right.
Speaker 1:And so then you know, like, because then we're also saying, well, at the same time, you know, our society generally is saying kind of life is bad, but like for certain people, right, you know so, for the people that are dying or for the next generation coming up, I mean, you know we just need to have, as you know, few kids as possible, because life is going to be so bad, you know, for the next generation, or life is going to be, you know, it's just so bad for people in poverty, so we should have abortions to eliminate people going into foster care, because that's about you know. And so it just seems like there's just this, um, unless there's conflict there, but it really just kind of comes down to this underlying perspective issue as well.
Speaker 2:What you're pointing out there's, there's an inconsistency or even a hypocrisy about it. You know you're saying you know life is bad for other people, but I have to do everything I can to keep it good for me and people like me and it's like okay, which is it? Is life good or is it not good? If you're just being self-serving about it? If that's your perspective, yeah, then you need to take a step back and balance things again.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean because I think the Christian argument maybe would be that all life is good. I mean, wouldn't we kind of say that? I mean that's really what we do say, I think, when it comes down to trying to fight the abortion issue as well. But you know, I mean it kind of, as Bob said. You know it really defines what do you mean as good? And if we're saying all life is good because God has given us life and has made us with a purpose, yes, definitely, from that perspective we would say that there's also a failure of imagination, I think, involved in some cases.
Speaker 2:In the recent case out of Texas where a woman was trying to get an abortion, you know, as an exceptional case, because her child had been diagnosed, her unborn child had been diagnosed with Trisomy 18, I believe it was. Yeah, and you know, similar to all the arguments for aborting children diagnosed with Down syndrome, people are saying, oh no, you know, it would be cruel to bring that child into the world because his or her life would not be good. And you know it gets back to the question, bob, you know, how are you defining what is good? And all sorts of testimonies out there of people who, yeah, my daughter, my sister, had this very thing and she was happy, she had a good life. It's just not. You're just not able to imagine being that and you're assuming that your failure to imagine it being good means that it isn't good. And it's a failure to appreciate that. And again, as you know, as Christians we have a different perspective on that.
Speaker 4:Well, and one of the problems, I think that just really is making this a timely topic is the subjectivity we have today, that the autonomy, the right to decide for myself. You know, when you begin to desert any higher authority, you begin to reject higher authority, you begin to reject absolute values, intrinsic value to life. That's why I meant when I said depends what you mean by life, depends what you mean by good. You begin to reject any type of standardized version. You begin to say, well, life is good only when I can live the way I want and do the kinds of things I want to do.
Speaker 4:And of course, as Christians, we know that that's a problem. But do we know that it's a problem for all of us, even we strong practicing Christians? Because sometimes we cling to life in a way that is not consistent with Scripture. You know, we carry on like those without hope. There's a little bit of a conundrum for the Christian, and that is we recognize we live for eternity and yet we are called upon to ease the suffering, feed the hungry. We are called upon to make life better for people, to provide companionship, visiting food, those kinds of things. We are called upon to do that. But a lot of times when people say life is good, it's become almost like they're prime directive, Like all of my life needs to be good. There was that phase, oh, maybe 20 years ago the one with the most toys wins, and that's kind of still that mentality that we the more you can do for yourself, the more you can gather.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it does bother me too because there are poor people out there, you know. So we'll put a turkey on their table and we'll do this and that, but as long as I'm taken care of, you know and see, all of those things are not consistent. It's consistent with a worldly view of life. It's not consistent with the biblical view.
Speaker 1:Can we expand a little bit then on the biblical view and how that can help us in some of these arguments?
Speaker 2:Going back to Bob's point about you know, define what is good. By what standard are you doing that? I think that if we were to challenge somebody who's not a believer, for instance oh you're talking about life being good, or you're saying it's not good, like you know, what is your standard for that? As Christians, we understand that there is one standard for good, and that is God himself. I remember how Jesus answered the young man who came to him and says good, teacher, what must I do to you know? Inherit eternal life. And the first thing Jesus said is there's no one good but God. And you know that God defines what is good, and so for life to truly be good, god has to be a part of it. In a way that does apply for everyone, believer or not, because God's gift of life itself was and is good for everyone. It's something everyone can enjoy and it's kind of intrinsic to everyone's experience. But the best life is always going to be found by following Jesus, by having our sins forgiven and enjoying the wonderful gifts of grace and mercy and eternal life that comes from Him.
Speaker 2:There are many references, particularly in the Old Testament, in the Psalms and Proverbs, that talk about this is the way to a good life. Psalm 1, even the very first Psalm. The way to a good life is being with God, trusting, putting your trust in Him, following Him, not being distracted by the things of the world or the things of the flesh. The fourth commandment, the commandment with a promise you will have long life on the earth if you do these things. That's basically saying you're going to have a good life if you follow God's will. By no means saying the way to get to heaven is by keeping the commandments, but it is saying that as a believer, as someone who belongs to God, you recognize that the best way to live in this world is according to God's will.
Speaker 1:I think this goes back to a lot of how we define things, too, with good, because, as you're saying, some of these things like, okay, we have a good life if we stay with God, that doesn't mean that we're not going to have suffering in life.
Speaker 1:So if we're thinking good means that nothing bad is ever going to happen, I mean that's not what we're saying by being good and it kind of reminds me to a coming out of the Christmas season. I mean one word that we hear a lot in Christmas and Advent is this word joy, and how joy. I mean it's not just happiness, because that short lived, but this idea of Jesus coming and how that brings sustaining and lasting joy in our lives.
Speaker 4:And as best as we possibly can, you know, living in the 21st century, trying to imagine what life was like in the first century when the apostle Paul, who went from prosperity I mean he was seen to have been successful, learned, very educated, highly favored in the religious circles, where we have him overseeing the stoning of Stephen and so forth Then he goes through this conversion and after he goes through the stoning, you know, you start reading the epistles. Look at the way he starts it off. You know what is it that gives him joy? I see your faith, your faith is well-known. He talks about a different kind of joy and then he, you know, makes a comment in Philippians about, you know, learning the secret of being content where they're well fed, and he goes. I know what it means to be well fed, I know what it means to be hungry and I'm content. So it's a good life even in that. And you know it's hard for all of us. You know, when you live in a world that offers so much, it's hard not to get hooked on it. But when you see past it, and so that the apostle Paul finds in hardship and three times he requested the thorn in the flesh to be removed, and it wasn't. And yet he still, you know, he still got a good life. And I think, when we look at what we're doing as Christians, a lot of times what you're telling people is you know, you're telling them about Jesus, you're telling them about their salvation, but that translates for them into a good life.
Speaker 4:And we were talking, we were driving back, I'd been invited to speak at a dinner. We were driving back from the dinner and we were talking about all the things going on in Milwaukee and it happened to have been the anniversary date of when Jeffrey Dahmer was killed in prison. And I'd said to Diane that actually the word is that he had been ministered to by, I believe, one of our chaplains. And so you know he's in prison, and rightfully so, for some pretty dastardly crimes, and yet it was a good life. He come to know Jesus and then he was killed in prison.
Speaker 4:And if we get away from the idea that good life is the accumulation of goods and the accumulation of reputation and the accumulation of wealth and so forth, and recognize that when your good is translated vertically in your relationship with God rather than horizontally in your relationships in the world and so forth, you begin to find how scripture can talk about rejoicing in sufferings and, you know, being content even when you are in want, you know, and that's. I think that that's. It's a hard thing to communicate in the world because we all like to accumulate things. I mean we do.
Speaker 1:I do yeah, and then you know it's hard for us. Then I think, when we have stuff, then if it's taken away from us, that is another where like, oh man, life's not good anymore. I think, like my nine-year-old, you know, he just, I mean, if video games were taken away from him, you know it just it would be like how could you survive? And you know we've had discussions like, well, no, you could, and you could survive and have a good life.
Speaker 4:So yeah, well, and like with Job, you know, the way the book of Job begins is kind of peculiar. Have you seen my servant Job? And now, all of a sudden, you see why God is boasting about Job. Why? Because when Satan says, well, yeah, he's only happy with you because he gives things, so God allows him to lose his belongings and his children and Job goes. Well, the Lord gives, the Lord takes away. We're going. I know we use those words at funerals and stuff like that, but when you're in those scenarios that's hard. You know this is hard and yet, yet, the ability for Job to be able to see that is actually where we all should be. That's the point, is we all should be there.
Speaker 1:And it is to like. I mean I have thought a lot about Job this last year too and how a lot of times, you know, we tend to put people and things in different categories. I mean I especially think of, like the Christmas time season and stuff. You see, like these, you know, feel good movies, like where everything is taken away, but I still have family. And we think like, oh man, you know, it's like life, I mean everything can be taken away, but I mean if I still have my family, life is good. And we see what Job I mean his family was taken away, his kids were taken away and how life was still good. And that's just something, you know. That is very, I think, like well, in our day and age too, and just in our society, very countercultural to think that, like you could still lose people and that life could still be good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, it's something of a trope, and you know things. Oh, you know, I know things are bad, but at least you still have your health.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 2:Job lost. That too, yeah, right I know.
Speaker 1:So I mean really like it was. I mean God, I mean, of course, right knew exactly what he was doing giving us Job. As somebody who had experienced all these things that we think, oh, if we just have that we'd be okay, and really I mean all it comes down to is God is all we need.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and you spend a lifetime trying to learn that lesson.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know, when we think, then, about this idea of life being good, why will we continue to promote the goodness of life, no matter how the message is received?
Speaker 2:It's true, it's helpful. It's obviously better for society. It's a lot happier than the alternative of, you know, a message that life is bad, but as Christians we can say it's ultimately a witness to the gospel. It not only points to God's goodness and grace, it also allows us to point out that the problem that makes the bad in life is sin, and that the only solution to that problem is to be found in Jesus Christ, and so it's a message that's definitely worth getting out there and being upfront and maybe even a little aggressive about.
Speaker 4:And sometimes the way we look at life would be a good parameter as to where we really are in faith. There's been times when you academically say well, you know, like we were saying earlier, I at least have my health right, I have my family or my children, things like that. And so we tend to think academically about well, I could lose it all and start over. I remember when I was a student in the seminary, in the apartment complex we were in there was a car apartment complex on the other side of the parking lot and a fire had started in one of the apartments and the lady was just beside herself and she never mentioned anything about children or anything. I don't know if she had children, but she was sure bothered by the fact that all of the things my mother had given me they're all burning up, they're all going up. And that was kind of a rude awakening for me, because you know you think about oh, I sure I could lose it all on the fire. But all of a sudden if you find out there's a fire in your house, you know you begin to think about that.
Speaker 4:And I think when we seek to loosen our grip on the things of the world. That's when we begin to make progress in our lives of sanctification, our lives of walking with God, because we do cling hard to it. I thought a lot differently about things when I was 20 than I did when I was 40 and when I was 40, and then I do when I'm 60. And, as you, you know, most of the time you're kind of ready to go. But I'll tell you lately just this whole obsession in society about, you know, lengthening life spans, when I read about what people think they're going to be able to do, you know would like to be able to do so that they could live longer and longer and longer, it's because we're clean to the life, the life we know, and forgetting the life, you know, that's been promised to us.
Speaker 4:When I read stories of people during the times of war, you know they're at the table, they're having a meal and all of a sudden the enemy comes in, you know, kills the parents in front of the children and everything. All of a sudden, in a just like that, it's gone. Everything changed, everything changed. And you, when you read stories of during the World War II and the Holocaust, survivors and stuff, how you know they were running this successful business, everything, and just like overnight it was gone. And when we think coldly and harshly about that possibly happening to us, can you still say life is good? And by the world standards you can't. It doesn't meet the world standards, but by God's standards you still can, because God has simply shifted your form, shifted your field, and especially when it comes to health.
Speaker 4:We came out of church yesterday and I saw a fellow that I had met 35 years ago and he is just ravaged with disease. He uses a walker. I mean, he's like almost unrecognizable to what he was than he was 40 years ago. And so you look at him and you go. Can you say life is good? Yes, you can, because for some peculiar reason you're in that condition for some great cause, and that is to encounter people that you hadn't encountered before, to tell a message that they haven't heard before, that lead to people, and you got it. That's how we are to view life, and it's hard, you know it's hard because you really are conditioned not to think that way in this world 15, 20 years ago there was an Italian movie that got all sorts of awards.
Speaker 2:It was a nice, feel-good kind of movie called Life is Beautiful and it was about basically a Jewish family in Italy is put into a kind of concentration camp and and the dad does all sorts of things. You know they're separated from the mother. The dad does all sorts of things to basically hide his son, who's like seven years old or something like that, you know, in their, their barracks, dormitory or whatever, and telling him that all sorts of things about oh no, no, no, this is just a game we're playing. Oh no, no, you've got to hide now, and things like that. And you know it's nice because it's this father going, you know, doing all sorts of amazing things, you know, to make his son not have, not be afraid, and and all those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:But you know, the message of life being beautiful on that was based all on lies, you know. You know it's not the truth of the situation. We're just trying to get you to believe something other than the truth about the situation and that's the complete opposite of what you were just talking about, bob. You know that. You know we do know the truth of our situation, you know. We know how bad things are, whether it's a matter of our health or what's going on in society, or the state of our bank account or whatever it is. But we also know the truth of what is in store for us as God's children. We know that. You know he's got the whole world in his hands. He's got us very much in his hands and we know that, no matter how miserable our life here might be, what awaits us in heaven is is infinitely and endlessly better.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've often wondered you know the it's like life sometimes is like the way the world presents. It's a big scam.
Speaker 4:You know it's really. I mean you, just, you know, you, you, and that's what Ecclesiastes talks about. You know, you, you, you, you, it becomes meaningless. You, you work all of it, all of it, you build it up to leave it to somebody else. You, nothing's new under the sun, I mean it just, and it really, and people do, they get all excited. You know, and I, I've, I've encountered a few people who have been very successful, who've created all this wealth, who've enjoyed life and all that kind of stuff. And now, you know they, they give it all up to have things turned around a little bit, to have things a little bit different, and and we could tell them but you've got that, you know, you've got it in Jesus. It sounds trite by the world standards, but the world isn't offering anything better. Think about it. I mean, oh well, we'll make even well, double your riches. You still die. You know, you still leave it behind.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you both for this conversation today, and we thank all of our listeners too, and if you have any questions, let us know and you can check us out at lifechallengesus. We'll see you back next time. Bye.
Speaker 3:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at Life Challengesus or email us at podcast at ChristianLifeResourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at LifeChallengesus, so be sure to check it out For more about our parent organization, please visit ChristianLifeResourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.