Join Christa, Bob, and Jeff for a thought-provoking session on that promises not just to enrich your understanding of conflict resolution, but to deepen your spiritual growth as well. Their insights dissect the often-ignored roots of conflict, tracing it back to our very own sinful nature and the selfish desires that fuel everything from global conflicts to intimate quarrels. By tuning in, you'll gain a deeper understanding of the unseen forces and motivations that govern human behavior, and learn how to approach involvement in others' conflicts with a balance of compassion and love—especially when the rest of society might be reacting with less than charitable attitudes.
Join Christa, Bob, and Jeff for a thought-provoking session on that promises not just to enrich your understanding of conflict resolution, but to deepen your spiritual growth as well. Their insights dissect the often-ignored roots of conflict, tracing it back to our very own sinful nature and the selfish desires that fuel everything from global conflicts to intimate quarrels. By tuning in, you'll gain a deeper understanding of the unseen forces and motivations that govern human behavior, and learn how to approach involvement in others' conflicts with a balance of compassion and love—especially when the rest of society might be reacting with less than charitable attitudes.
On today's episode.
Bob Fleischmann:If there were possible for us to see in our conflict and in our bitterness and in our harsh words and in our gossiping that we are flogging Christ, it's our sins that cost Him His life, but then also that we would see the liberating joy that comes from the gospel, and that is that we're not. Sometimes we can't take back the bad words we said. Sometimes we can't undo the bad actions that were done, but we find a solution in the cross.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges Podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz:Hi and welcome back. I'm Crystal Potratz, and I'm here today with pastors Bob Fleishman and Jeff Sammelson. Last week we talked about war, and today we want to talk a little bit more about that and transition, though, into this idea of personal conflict as well. When is it a good thing to get involved in testy situations, and maybe when should we not? And some important things that we can kind of consider on this topic.
Jeff Samelson:I guess one place we could start with that is just talking about human nature. Compared to what really everybody wants to believe, people are not basically good. Everyone has a sinful nature, which means that that's always going to be at work somewhere in what's going on, whether it's in a war or something going on between people just two people and certainly in any of the life issues that are issues in our society today. Sinners are always going to do things for selfish reasons. They're always going to be at least tempted to put their own desires ahead of other people's rights and needs, and particularly if we're talking about non-Christians, there's not much. That's kind of putting the brakes on that, and so that explains so much of what we see in war.
Jeff Samelson:Why did this country go to war against that country? Well, because the leader of this country had selfish desires for more power or territory or influence or felt insulted or something like that. Why is it that life issues are the problem that they are? Because somebody selfishly desired to be free of a pregnancy, because somebody selfishly desired to be free of taking care of their grandma who's in poor health. So many of those issues. It really comes down to a matter of human nature and just understanding that sin is a huge part of that.
Bob Fleischmann:The other thing that I think is a similarity between conflicts and life issues and war and so forth is that you never know the whole story. I'm always amazed when I'm a history buff, so I enjoy reading more of the deeper background and how, when you read history, you find so many other balls that are being juggled in the background, and a lot of times what Jeff said is at the core of the issue, but often, from what I've read, it's not enough to push them into war. It's something else, that kind of nags at them. The same thing too when you get involved with people in conflicts taking contrary issues on life issues, they tend to have an agenda that well, it doesn't make sense. I used to always teach the kids I said if something doesn't make sense, it means one of two things is going on Either you don't know the whole story or there's another agenda.
Bob Fleischmann:And that seems to prove out time and time again that when it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense to terminate a child's life and it doesn't make sense to arbitrarily divide a pregnancy into three trimesters for the purposes of evaluating abortion rights back in 1973. A lot of those things didn't make sense. That's because there was another agenda. There were other things going on, and it's important to keep that in mind too, because I know we're going to get in this discussion. We're going to get involved with. How far does a Christian go in getting involved in things? You got to remember that we're oftentimes operating from a position of ignorance.
Christa Potratz:And what should we really do with conflicts that we're not a part of but that might affect us or might affect someone that we know and care about? I'm just kind of thinking too, like if you have a friend or a sibling or family member that's going through a divorce and you maybe you just kind of just don't know, like when somebody's talking to you about it, what you should say, how far you should get involved, what's kind of your advice in a situation like that?
Jeff Samelson:I guess the first place we want to start with that is in the heart, with compassion, with love. Somebody, you see, whether it's somebody who's close to you or somebody who's not very close to you is going through trouble in a difficult situation. You don't just ignore it. You just don't say, well, yeah, they probably deserve that. You start with compassion. How can you reach out with your heart to this person? You think in terms of love. I love this person, so how am I going to be interested in seeing this situation get better? It's not quite to the point yet of getting involved, but you start there with a sense of there's something wrong here and that's not good, and I, as a Christian, care about that.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, I like to how you just said you know, like with someone that you know and then someone that you don't know too. I think when I first threw out the question, I mean I was thinking like of somebody that you know right, you know like a family member, and then I can see how you would come to that with, like the loving viewpoint for that family member. But then when you said to like somebody that you don't know, then I was thinking like okay, like when you hear about celebrities getting a divorce and then immediately like comment sections and I mean people seem very opinionated on who's side to go with. There usually isn't a whole lot of love put forth in situations like that for people that you don't know.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah, which it kind of presses the question why get involved in the first place? What is our objective? You know, if Facebook or social media is basically the kind of unvarnished reflection of our personalities, it paints a pretty dark picture of our own hearts. You know the way people comment, like you said, at the end of articles and so forth, on certain affairs. When people have come to me, you know and they'll talk about just different conflicts going on, and I've tried and over the years I think I've been miserable at this in the past.
Bob Fleischmann:I'd like to think I'm getting better, although the better I get at it, the least I want to deal with it. What I want to do is I want to basically say and so why is this your concern? You're troubled by the way the neighbors handling their kids. You're troubled by the way a teacher is teaching a class. You're troubled by a relationship? Okay, but why is it a concern to you? You know there are a lot of things in the world that are troubling. Jeff likes to say oftentimes in past broadcasts that life is messy. When you remember that life truly is messy, it's because of sin. I am fairly confident you don't know all the facts. Again, you tend to surround yourself with people who think like you. So if you all think this political candidate is no good for the country, he's a no good person, then anytime something negative comes up, you're going to be fed by sources that are going to reinforce that thinking, and so, as a result, why do you want to give an opinion on it?
Christa Potratz:You just don't know, is there an argument like when you were talking to a boat or to somebody's neighbors and parenting their kids the way you think they should, or that type of thing? If it bothers your conscience, is that enough reason to say something?
Jeff Samelson:It's not easy to answer that because there are so many variables involved in such a situation, but I'd say the main thing that's going to apply in every situation is you have to step back and think about what's motivating my desire to get involved here. Am I legitimately concerned that something dangerous is happening here? Something's going to happen that can't be undone. If it's just like, oh boy, they yell at their kids too much or they don't show any discipline to those kids, they ought to do something. That's the kind of thing that you think, okay, if I were a parent and the neighbor came and said, hey, you know, you probably ought to, I'd probably not take that so well, it wouldn't be very helpful.
Jeff Samelson:But on the other hand, if it's crossed the line and that you're witnessing abuse, or you know your kids are playing and the neighbor kid says something about things that are going on at home that you know just are not right in any situation, a line has been crossed. In that case you probably really don't want to get involved in that case, but those are the times when you actually need to get involved and it's probably not going to be going and talking to the neighbor, it's probably going to be going to the authorities in that specific kind of case. Probably you really have to step back and say okay, what is my motivation here? Am I looking to be the one who knows everything and I'm imparting my wisdom to these poor, benighted people who don't know the things that I do? Or are you seeing something that's actually a real problem that needs to be addressed and you just happen to be the person who is in a position to offer assistance?
Bob Fleischmann:A conscience does need to be rightly calibrated. In other words, there are people who are always troubled by things without any solid objective basis for being troubled. Like Jeff was saying, you know you might think they could be better disciplinarians with their children. But it's your opinion. But when you see it like harm or something like that, in my ministry I think there's been three or four times that I've been brought in in an intervention type circumstance where we feel that there could be harm caused and a lot of people. They don't debate about the need to do something, they just don't know what to do.
Bob Fleischmann:People will get involved with cases where there's a concern of child abuse and the father is a big brute of a guy and so all of a sudden the neighbor lady she doesn't want to go and confront him and of course, go to the pastor, he's expendable. Have him go and confront him. What do you wrestle with? How do you do it? So let me just start with a point there from that, and that is when you know that there is danger that something has to be done.
Bob Fleischmann:This is not going to be a debate about whether we should do something because you have to do something you don't. You know it isn't like you can ignore it and let somebody else deal with it. You have to do something, and then you've got a pretty wide spectrum of choices. But if there's a situation of potential bodily harm, weapons, whatever, you definitely don't do it alone. You know you have to get help, but then you should be involved, without a doubt. You know you're called to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves. The example of the greatest love is a willingness to even sacrifice your life, but you are a steward over your life, the lives of others, and you act responsibly. If it's going to bring harm, you have to do something. It's not a question.
Jeff Samelson:You know, getting away from those more life and death, you know really kind of, you know dangerous Situations, whatever. Just to something that's probably more common when it comes to there is a conflict over here between these people. There is a problem. Yeah, should I be more in the middle of that? Should I be doing something and just making a point About the necessity of thinking things through? And that point that was made earlier about you don't know the whole story? It's Bob was talking.
Jeff Samelson:I was reminded of a situation I dealt with in my ministry and again, because I was the pastor, I was asked to be involved. So I was in the middle of it. But it illustrates the difficulty that any person is going to have with this. This was a troubled marriage. Everybody knew that. It was a troubled marriage.
Jeff Samelson:As it was presented to me, the problem was a wife who was just unwilling to take any kind of instruction, encouragement. She just wasn't listening to the church at all. Her husband was presented as I just don't know what's wrong with my wife. You know, I'm trying everything. That, that, that, that. That that's the situation that was presented and from the outside Everybody seemed to know okay, he's the good guy here and she's the one who's got the problems.
Jeff Samelson:I. I eventually found out that the problem was that nobody was listening to the wife when she was telling them the truth about what the husband was like, and so she eventually shut down. She wasn't going to involve anybody else because nobody was listening to her. And it turned out that the man was actually a manipulator and he'd been manipulate, manipulating all of the people from the church who had been talking to him about the problems in the marriage, and once he found out that he could no longer manipulate the church, he disappeared. I mean, I share that story simply to illustrate that it may seem really clear to you which is the right side to be on, and the reality may be something very different, and so we have to tread very carefully when we think well, I'm gonna step in here and I'm gonna take a side this conflict that I'm seeing between my neighbors, between people at church, whatever it might be.
Christa Potratz:I think that's a good point too, because Oftentimes when somebody comes to us, they're coming to us with their perspective and their side of the story. And I had a conflict one time with someone, and you know they said, well, everybody who I told the story to agrees with me. And I said, well, yeah, everyone who I told the story to agrees with me, you're, you're hearing one side of it and one part of it. So I guess you know that it's just when you're in that position and you're hearing one side, should you do your homework to hear the other side of it? Or, you know, do you just kind of talk to the person that you're hearing the one side of the story too? What? What kind of should you do in a case where you kind of know, okay, I'm getting one side of this, but I don't really know the full situation?
Jeff Samelson:Again, take that step back. Don't just react in the moment. Think about it. Okay, what am I actually being called upon to do here, and what is appropriate for me to do here is the fact that you know Mandy talked to me about this difficulty. Does that mean that I'm going to be now the one who steps in to fix things between Mandy and Bill, or or is it really more that I'm just gonna be a listening ear for Mandy and I'm also not going to assume she's telling me the whole story?
Jeff Samelson:But I can still be supportive to her and I can still point her in directions that might be useful, might be helpful because she has Approached me, she has shared this with me, so she's involved me in a certain way. But, bill, he hasn't asked me to be involved, you know, no one else has, and so you just can't say, okay, well, this is the limit of what I've been asked to do. You know, there might be other situations when which it becomes clear that, no, you, you happen to be the one who can make a difference in this. Maybe you know something that others don't, or something, and then you might, might, get more involved. But you know, step back and don't just assume that because somebody talked to you about it, that gave you some information automatically that that means you're.
Bob Fleischmann:You're fully part of the what's going on there in any conflict, like in war, somebody wants to win, and when somebody wants to win, that means somebody loses. And Perhaps the best thing to do is try to derail the whole conflict and Try to encourage them to remember why this needs to be settled in the first place. You know I I'm thinking back to the troubles that were going on in the church Corinth. They had some cases of incest going on and various improprieties, and the problem it's also within the letter that Paul says you know, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, you're supposed to do it all to the glory of God, and Oftentimes the bigger issue is not that we need to settle this difference, but what can you each be doing that puts God to the front of this rather than at the back?
Bob Fleischmann:You know it's, even when it comes to the question of should I intervene, a lot of us are oftentimes Deciding that question based on a sense of personal justice. You know it's it's wrong to do this or it's it's wrong to be like that. So I'm gonna be ideologically Perfect on this, you're gonna do the right thing. But the but the real question is is that if Jesus were here and he's trying to always point you towards honoring God? How would he approach it? And, quite honestly, it's it's a frustrating question because it doesn't provide satisfaction to the sinful flesh. The sinful flesh wants to win and the the reality is, like Jesus demonstrated with his own life sometimes winning means you lose. Sometimes they do take, they arrest you, sometimes they do execute you, sometimes you lose, but in the end you win, and that my problem that I've always had is in In conflicts, is that somebody has, somebody insists they have to be a winner and that means somebody has to lose. And the reality is they both. They both are losers. You know, they both have lost because of sin.
Christa Potratz:Sometimes, you know, it is hard though, because, like I see, like, where somebody does just want the conflict to go away, I don't really care about like winning or whatever, I just want this to be done with, and the other side is just hanging on so hard to it. And then I think of, like, when we talk about, like the war analogy, you know, like just trying to call it truth or have peace or something. But sometimes, you know, in those situations, in war too, there's just one side that is just not willing to do that at all.
Bob Fleischmann:I have a movie actor friend who is like the antithesis to me, I mean he's a liberal, non-christian.
Christa Potratz:Quiet, there's a guy, yeah, yeah.
Bob Fleischmann:Doesn't talk much I don't get it, it's just the opposite of me. But he and I were once talking about our differences and he said you know, the problem with you conservatives is you're not content to be right, you need to punish everybody else for being wrong. And that's a little bit of kind of what you're talking about, christy. You know where sometimes you get those conflicts where somebody is not content, even if they are in the right to just be right. Now, all of a sudden there needs to be some sort of consequence to create satisfaction in the whole thing. And again God is no longer central in that debate. It's just personal willpower and sinful desires reigning supreme.
Christa Potratz:So then, being in kind of like that middleman position and everything too, you know, I can see like sometimes where it can be a good thing and I think we've touched on that a little bit too and I think of like just the mediation aspect. And you know, definitely like with pastors and counselors and mediators. So sometimes maybe you might not be in that situation to mediate, maybe it is like, oh, you know you should, maybe your advice to that person is to go seek counseling or something too, because I think there is a benefit sometimes in mediation. And I remember years ago my mom had given me a magazine subscription.
Christa Potratz:There was always an article in it with a marriage that was collapsing, and you would get, you know, the first part of the article was like maybe the husband's point of view and then the wife's point of view, and after they laid it all out there, you just kind of thought, oh man, this is over.
Christa Potratz:And then the counselor would get in and she would talk about well, when I first met with John, you know we discussed this and then, you know, sally brought up these things, and then, you know, and by the end of the article it always seemed like this was gonna go in a positive direction. And it was just, it was kind of amazing too, like, because just reading the article, like how my mind shifted from just thinking like this is disastrous to oh, there is some hope here, and it just made me kind of realize maybe the benefit of mediation and of counseling too Well, and oftentimes people come in and, jeff, I don't know what your experience was, but for me they would come in for pastoral counseling, like in the eighth inning, when you wish they had come to you in the second or third inning.
Bob Fleischmann:You know they would come in too late. The minds are already made up, they've staked out their positions, and I think that that's a serious mistake. In our church body they do a lot of these marriage seminars and so forth, and I think one of the benefits of those things is they try to head some of that off. Anytime you put two people who every inclination of their heart is evil, you put them together into what you hope to be a happy and sustaining marriage, it's going to start. I have problems on occasion, and these seminars are designed to kind of get people to always be communicating about it, but to also recognize that there's a limit. At some point my wife and I are not able to the side you know where to eat and it, and we get really grouchy over it. Okay, we can get over that. I don't think I need an mediator for that.
Bob Fleischmann:You know, we'll go for Mexican white.
Christa Potratz:But the We'll just do what I want. Yeah, we'll just do what I want. It just settles it. Yeah, but the.
Bob Fleischmann:But the point is is that there has to be, you know, kind of certain flags that you have to recognize in a conflict, kind of that old adage that when you you keep doing the same thing and expecting different results, somebody's crazy here. And these are the kind of conflicts that have come to me, you know, where one or the other would say you know, my husband doesn't go to church, he's a non-believer or he's like, and I want to go in it. And now that we've got children and we want to give him to Sunday School, it's a big fight over who gets to take them or who has to take them. And you know those kinds of things. And they keep doing it, they keep thinking they we could work this out. But the problem is is that they don't realize how big of a wedge is already existing between them on something as a paramount importance as your faith, and so you need to bring in some sort of mediator, someone to talk it through.
Bob Fleischmann:The same thing to a common complaint is a substance abuse problem, you know. You know, charlie, you drink too much. No, I don't, you know. Okay, so all right. So Charlie says no, you say yes. Oh, you think you're going to talk him in the change in his mind? Very rarely, do you? You know, like the moment it begins that way, you know, you know, in your ideal world you want to say, charlie, I think you drink too much. And you want to immediately say, I guess I that could be, I guess.
Christa Potratz:I hadn't thought about it, but it never comes that way. It never. It never is that way. No, you would you? I think there is that idea that you know, I will show this person what I think the problem is, and then they'll just kind of oh yeah, that's it.
Bob Fleischmann:And that's where that objective third party comes in. Right, somebody has to come in that that neither side's going to claim well, it's your friend or you know.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, right, right. Well, you know. Thinking too, then, about when people come to us with with conflicts. How and for what kind of things should we pray when people are fighting? So, when somebody comes to us with a conflict, what, what are some things maybe to keep in mind, to pray for in that situation?
Jeff Samelson:Well, earlier Bob mentioned the idea that we have this sense of wanting our own idea of justice and what should be done. And so one of the things we should pray, you know, particularly when there is a real conflict, where there's there seems to be a right and a wrong, we pray that justice would be done, but not justice according to our standards, justice according to the real standard, which is God's. We probably don't know exactly what that is, but he does, and so we pray for him to bring the best possible resolution to whatever the conflict is. And we, you know we might pray that our good friend have peace, that this be a happy ending for her, whatever it might be. But you know, we don't dictate to God too much of like.
Jeff Samelson:Well, I think this is what should happen. We let him work out the details there. We want the innocent to be vindicated, we want the victimized to be delivered, and we do want the wicked to be punished, and we, most of all, we want evil to be stopped. If you know, a conflict is risen to the point where it's obvious that there is something that wrong and, as Bob mentioned earlier, we want the weak and the vulnerable to be protected. So that's a kind of thing that we pray for in every situation, and as Christians, we're also very concerned with truth, and that's another thing to pray for that the truth will win out in the end, Whether we end up knowing what it is or not. We want that to be the thing that that comes out from whatever conflict you know it might be.
Bob Fleischmann:I think there needs to be included in that a prayer. It's some sort of acknowledgement that all conflict is rooted in sin, rooted in people not sharing the same ideal with it when it comes to glorifying God, serving others and so forth, and that you recognize the gravity of the sin that's at the core of it. And I'm not talking about, in a marriage relationship, somebody sleeping around or somebody who's substance abuse. I'm talking about any sin. You know, I've used the reference before the old picture of Dorian Gray, the idea that if they were possible for us to see in our conflict and in our bitterness and in our harsh words and in our gossiping that we are flogging Christ, it's our sins that cost him his life, you know. But then also that we would see the liberating joy that comes from the gospel. And that is that. You know we're not. Sometimes we can't take back the bad words we said, sometimes we can't undo the bad actions that were done. But we find a solution, you know, in the cross.
Bob Fleischmann:And I think again, what you're trying to do is raise it onto a spiritual plane, so not just with the exercise of prayer, but then the content. That, just you know, is kind of a reminder, because you know I think it was, it was a story this morning, wall Street Journal or yesterday about how the non-religious people are finding value in religion. Atheistic people are finding value in religion. A lot of people treat religion more like a social club or a philosophical school that you buy into. But you know, christianity teaches that for every sinful action it costs an eternity and the resolution was in Christ. And I think raising conflict to that level brings a level of, hopefully, humility on both parts. You know, and you know I fully realize how far people go into a conflict before they even want to start talking about it. But the reality is is that I think, as God's children, we have to. We have to put it within a God context.
Christa Potratz:You know, as Christians, maybe just realizing that the resolution might not come or might not come like the way we want to, I think sometimes you know we feel like, okay, you know, I'm a Christian, I'm fighting like for a God side type of thing. Like you know, if you think of like the government or something, we're gonna win, the pro-life side is gonna win. We're gonna because because God is on our side, type of attitude and God works in so many ways that we just don't know and can't see. And so I think sometimes you know we think like if something is resolved, that's God working. But God works through conflicts and through different things as well.
Jeff Samelson:That reminds me of a story that I've always found very useful. Before the Battle of Jericho, joshua is out and he comes across the angel of the Lord blocking his way, and and Joshua asks he doesn't quite understand who it is just yet and he says are you on our side or their side? And I'm paraphrasing here, but the answer is it's the wrong question, joshua. The question is whether you're on my side or not, and that's something we need to remember. That you know. So often we think, well, god needs to be on our side and no, we're on God's side. That's how it defined. You know it's supposed to be defined, which means we follow him rather than telling him this is the way things are gonna go.
Bob Fleischmann:Sanctification is a process, not an event, you know. So people need to recognize that. You know change comes slowly and sometimes it means falling down a few times in the process. You know a lot of times I worry that between very well written you know fiction, novels, picking and choosing little slivers of stories, even out of the Bible without the full context, or movies, we always imagine these mountaintop experiences. I recognize they are my ways. I will now be better. When you go to mediate, when you're stepping in.
Bob Fleischmann:I highly recommend you know, don't figure that I've spoken. Change will now take place. In fact, sometimes people get worse I mean they literally because they're so steeped in they don't want to acknowledge wrong. They don't? You gotta, and you've got to love them so much that you're willing to give them the other side of your cheek to be slapped and you're willing to walk the extra mile with them because you're fighting the same thing that was destroying you.
Christa Potratz:I think we could talk a while on conflict. No, I could and so. But thank you both for this discussion today and we thank all of our listeners too, and if you have any questions on this topic at all, please reach out to us. You can find us at lifechallengesus and we look forward to having you back next time. Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit christianliferesourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.