Upholding Faith Through a Prenatal Diagnosis

When faced with the delicate decisions of prenatal testing, how can we hold fast to our faith while navigating the medical realm? Join Christa, Bob, and Jeff for a pro-life Christian perspective as we examine the array of prenatal tests available to expectant parents. From ultrasounds to MRIs, our discussion traverses the moral landscape of these medical advancements, weighing the ethical implications of preparation versus termination. We emphasize the significance of trust in God's providence and the wonder of life at every stage, stirring a conversation that bridges the gap between science and spirituality.

The selection of healthcare professionals and the gravity of their advice come to the forefront when prenatal tests reveal potential complications. It's in these moments that our convictions are truly tested. We explore the quest for pro-life doctors and the weight of their expertise against shared values. Listen as we share stirring narratives that reveal the power of faith, the strength of conviction, and the resilience of hope in the most testing of times.

In our concluding chapter, we turn to the emotional journey that accompanies pregnancy testing. We advocate for caution with invasive procedures and patience in the face of uncertainty, reminding parents-to-be of the importance of comprehensive medical counsel. Through heartfelt stories, we highlight how faith anchors us, allowing us to trust in God's plan amid the unknown. We extend an invitation to continue the dialogue, seek support through our resources, and acknowledge the miracles of medical intervention as divine gifts. Join us as we navigate these life challenges with wisdom, compassion, and a steadfast belief in the sanctity of life.

Transcript

Jeff Samelson: 0:04

Trust God, not just to take care of you, but trust that he also is capable of the miraculous, and sometimes that miraculous comes through human hands. There have been some really amazing developments in medicine and science in recent years Doctors doing surgery on babies in the womb to correct congenital deformities and things like that, and it's successful and the child is born, everything's fine. And it's just to think that they're doing this. They're operating on organs that are the size of fingernail and it's just amazing the things that can happen today. Yes, people are doing that, but these are also gifts from God and embrace those and trust that we're not going to assume that God is going to give the outcome that we want on something, you know, we learned something negative, but trust that he's able to.

Paul Snamiska: 1:01

Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.

Christa Potratz: 1:30

Hi and welcome back. I'm Crystal Potrats and I'm here today with pastors Bob Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson, and today we're going to talk about a prenatal diagnosis and specifically what to do with a prenatal diagnosis. Typically, when a woman finds out that she's pregnant, she will go in to see the doctor and oftentimes they'll do an ultrasound right away to see if the heart is beating, and then usually from there there will be many visits scheduled. There's usually talk of genetic testing. Sometimes it's recommended to do certain tests depending on the age or the health of the mother, and so then a lot of times the woman has to decide if she wants the testing, what kind of testing to do. So we're going to kind of talk about some of these things today. When somebody gets offered these tests and I think you know most people now will get offered some type of genetic testing right away at the beginning how valuable is or isn't this type of testing? What tests are we really talking about here?

Bob Fleischmann: 2:47

Well, oftentimes they'll get into like ultrasound and then they'll have maybe MRI if they spot something In our CLR New Beginning staff we've just gone through and we are in the middle of going through a number of pregnancies and so this is a very pertinent issue for us and so they'll identify something they wanted to see if the child's all right Now. Remember that this is an abortion minded culture. So when you have an abortion minded culture, many of the physicians who are offering this are going to say, oh, it looks like your child may have a disability of some sort. We're going to do this early enough so that we can help you have a safe termination of the pregnancy, which, of course, safe for you, not safe for the child. So a lot of times that's behind it, but not always.

Bob Fleischmann: 3:35

For example, when a family has a history of problems, they'll want to do some testing for that so that you can prepare. It might even alter the way they want the mother, like, for example, they might want the mother if she's prone to high blood pressure or something like that, they're going to want to do some testing, see if there's stress on the child and then prescribe medication, prescribe regimen for the mother to do? I know that on my staff. One of the mothers in my office was told right up front that they wanted to do this testing. She told them right up front if this is a search and destroy mission to abort a child that doesn't live up to some sort of standard, it's a waste of time and money. But the doctor assured her this is so that we can make adjustments. And so I mean this is soon the worst. What if it's a bad thing? You discovered something that's deemed bad. A pro-life Christian parents will just simply say it enables us to prepare them.

Christa Potratz: 4:39

I think I was offered genetic testing with each of my pregnancies. It was always presented in that way. Well, this is just so. If there is a situation, then we'll know how to handle it or what to do. In my case, at least, it just didn't seem like I would be handling things any differently if there was a situation like that. But I know there are many Christian couples that will go through the genetic testing and, like you mentioned too, Bob, if there's family history or just different things, just so that they can prepare or know how to handle a situation.

Jeff Samelson: 5:19

Yeah, it's probably helpful at this point just to mention that there are two different types of things that we're talking about with the testing there.

Jeff Samelson: 5:26

There are screening tests, and these are usually first trimester, maybe into the second trimester, and they're designed to either rule out a condition or Note that there's an elevated risk of a condition, but they don't confirm anything. Really, it's just kind of like okay, well, we did this and that means that we we need to take a closer look at this, or we did this Test and we think you're in the clear on on this thing. But if there is reason, the next step is officially called diagnostic testing, and that's that's usually not so much in the first trimester, unless they really know there's a good reason more like the second trimester, and those tend to be a lot more accurate, they tend to be a lot more Involved and they get a lot more down into the okay, we checked the genes, we checked the DNA and this is here or this is not here. The screening is one level and then the diagnostic tests are the next level.

Bob Fleischmann: 6:22

It's important to remember too that even in the diagnostic testing they're not foolproof. I mean they still will be mistakes. One of the big controversial things occurred in Iceland a few years back, where Iceland was boasting that they were able to get rid of Down syndrome and the whole island, and they found out the way they did it is they were screening people, they were doing the prenatal testing and if it looked like there was a suggestion that you were carrying a pregnancy with Down syndrome, you were encouraged to abort the child. It can be used in a poor way, in a bad way. My problem that I have is that we do seem to have an insatiable desire for knowledge. So, like, the more we know, the more we want to know.

Bob Fleischmann: 7:07

I remember 50 years ago, 45, 50 years ago, amniocentesis was like the kind of the common staple of prenatal testing that would go on and I remember one couple had told me good friends they felt guilty that they would have an amniocentesis because it was used for search and destroy, but they they needed it to check out other Other things going on so that they could prepare. They were very pro-life. Love children would have taken children no matter how they came, but they hate it to be Associated with. That Christian parent has to look at it for what it is. Because you can today learn more. We can do a genetic screening, we can do additional testing. It's not a bad thing to just ask yourself why, and really because you think more of others than you do of yourself. Your answer to that question is I'm interested in this if it's something that I can help my child or Help help the wife during the pregnancy.

Christa Potratz: 8:05

I think that's a good thing to ask the the why, because the question I was gonna ask to was just what should a Christian parent kind of do, or a Christian mother, when their doctor is Telling them oh yeah, I think you should get it tested? Do you just kind of go along with what the doctor has said, or should you take more time to To reflect a little bit on that?

Jeff Samelson: 8:29

Oh, yeah, I mean understand and ask if you don't understand, well, doctor, why are you suggesting this? You know what is the purpose of this and if that's a satisfactory answer, then okay. Okay, what exactly is this testing for? What's the accuracy rate? You know what are things that are commonly suggested with this, this result or that result. Get informed and don't just go along with the doctor because the doctor knows best, because doctor doesn't always know what's best in in these situations and sometimes doctors have agendas too.

Bob Fleischmann: 9:03

It has been my experience that it's of an immense value that the doctor knows how you feel about these things. I used to tell people you know well, just ask your doctor, talk to your doctor about these things, see how they feel. But the reality is that my experience has been that the doctors will acknowledge your position, even if they disagree. We have a family doctor who's a member of a church body that's in favor of abortion rights, so I'm fairly confident that he's probably fine with it, Probably one of these who says not for me, but if that's your choice, then you got to live with it and so it's good for me to know that. But it's even better for him to know where I stand on that stuff. So when we get talking about a wide assortment of medical conditions dealing with the beginning or the end of life, I try to be very clear who I am and I'll tell you the best way to start with stuff like that is like the Christian life resources Advanced Medical Directive, Because it's got a Christian component that's designed.

Bob Fleischmann: 10:04

You have trouble articulating your faith or maybe even mustering up the courage to say something you can say. Well, I have this document that gets it out in front and it establishes who you are, because you can control. Say who you are. You can't control what they're gonna say and if you've been involved with the medical system, right about the time you get really used to your favorite doctor. They move on. It just happens all the time. Many mothers have called me and said, yeah, you know, the doctor that I had with my first two children isn't there anymore, Retired they moved Bringing doctors into this too.

Christa Potratz: 10:41

it makes me think, okay, how important is it that my doctor is pro-life, like when we're talking about, I think, like OBs or that type of thing? Is it important to choose a pro-life doctor, or is it just important to really know where you stand and then you can face kind of any doctor? What would your advice be to somebody?

Jeff Samelson: 11:09

I think it's gonna vary a lot just how you feel about things. I mean, one of the big things is like you know, okay, you know what kind of doctor is this you're seeing. You know, if you're seeing a cardiologist, yeah, it might not matter that much whether you know he or she is pro-life or not. But when it gets to an obstetrics, gynecologist, you know it's like okay, how am I gonna feel if I know that the doctor that I'm seeing to help me with my pregnancy also does abortions in the other room? Am I gonna be comfortable with that? But if he doesn't actually do those abortions but he actually just, you know he's okay with other doctors who do, you might be able to work with that again. You know, making the point that Bob said, you explain it. This is never going to be an option for me. Then he, at least he or she knows. Okay, I'm not gonna suggest it, you know, hopefully we'll understand that, but you know, there's a lot gonna matter.

Jeff Samelson: 12:00

I mean, obviously the ideal is to have a pro-life doctor, but you're not always going to be able to know that either.

Christa Potratz: 12:07

No, I mean, you know there was there's a pro-life organization for doctors and so some just different people in the pro-life movement say, oh yeah, you should definitely find a doctor that is part of this organization. And I remember I think, like with one of my pregnancies looking, and there was one doctor in the whole like greater Milwaukee area who was who was part of this organization, and the doctors at the place that I went to they were very comfortable with my pro-life stance. I think they were used to seeing people that had similar views with me but they weren't on this list of doctors, and so it just made me just wonder okay, you know, is it okay that I see this other doctor?

Christa Potratz: 12:56

And you know what, like what is maybe the benefit of seeing you know somebody who specifically voiced themselves as a pro-life doctor?

Bob Fleischmann: 13:08

One thing to remember is they are also the mission field.

Bob Fleischmann: 13:12

You have to make decisions and get people who are expert enough in what you're trying to do to get the job done.

Bob Fleischmann: 13:17

For example, we're doing a lot of work with neurologists lately in our family and if I found out that our frontline neurologist was, you know, on the board of directors of an abortion rights group, I'm fine with that, to be honest, because I'll view her as the mission field, but she is a top drawer neurologist and I'm looking for a top drawer neurologist and but Again, a lot of times it's what you're trying to accomplish when you have options.

Bob Fleischmann: 13:51

I've never been totally comfortable I know we've talked about this in other contexts of boycotts and things like that primarily because if all the strong Christian, pro-life Christians basically blacklisted all of the abortion people, who's going to share with them the truth? And the moment they start giving you advice that talks like anything that's going to endanger your child, you do what I tell everybody to do and that is, you get a second or third opinion. I think it seems idealistic today that says you know, I'm just going to always look for the perfect pro-life doctor because, to be honest, I mean there have been on occasion pro-life doctors that have not been very good what they do. You've got the other problem, you know. So just having the credential of being pro-life doesn't make you the ideal one.

Christa Potratz: 14:43

Shifting back to the genetic testing, then so if a mother finds that the test, that she has done, the genetic testing, and it has come back now positive for something, that what is the next step? What should she do in that situation?

Bob Fleischmann: 15:03

Well, second opinion, second, third opinions I'm very big on that. There's going to be two kinds of things that are going to happen. You know, one doctor is going to say we've discovered this problem. You know, it might clear up during the course of the pregnancy or it might get worse, we don't know. But we're going to do this. We're going to do that clearly with a mindset towards protecting the mother and preserving the child's life. You're going to get another doctor who's going to say the child will not survive.

Bob Fleischmann: 15:34

I find this, with anisophallic children born with undeveloped neural tissue, you know the child's not going to survive. I just in fact, I had a case like this, maybe a couple of weeks ago, where the doctors had said you've got this situation, the child's not going to survive. For the safety of the mother, we need to do an early delivery, which is an abortion. It was like four months into the pregnancy and, first of all, quite honestly, nonsense.

Bob Fleischmann: 16:05

When you have a problematic pregnancy, you are observed almost to the point of uncomfortableness. I mean, I've dealt with patients who they immediately want to hospitalize them, monitor the pregnancy for the last three months, two months of a pregnancy, something like that. They're going to know. Their concern is is, if the child dies in the womb, that they know that they know the child has died and remove it so that it's not going to cause an infection or anything like that. Okay, that's not that difficult to detect, it's not that hard to notice and they'll say, well, you know, the child won't survive anyway.

Bob Fleischmann: 16:48

I always like to counter that with the statement so you mean a child with this condition has never survived till birth. Well, of course they can't say that you know a lot of these conditions, that during a pregnancy they diagnose it and they'll say the child will not survive through the pregnancy. A lot of these conditions. There are cases where they survive. Anisophallic children will survive. Most don't, but some do and they survive. They sometimes will live. I believe the longest I've read about was 13 months.

Christa Potratz: 17:23

Oh, wow.

Bob Fleischmann: 17:24

Yeah, so it's.

Christa Potratz: 17:25

Because sometimes that's usually just it can be a few hours, right, right, right.

Bob Fleischmann: 17:31

And I was involved with a case where the child was born with anisophallic and they had the pastor there and the child was born. The pastor baptized the child. The child died within three hours, but the child was baptized. It was great comfort to the family. The point is is that when you begin to treat the child as a subordinate human being because of a malady, there's something wrong there, and will there be times where either the mother or the child will die. There usually is something wrong with the mother too that needs to be dealt with. Like she's got cancer, she's got a heart defect. You're dealing with something wrong with the mother one. We're just looking at the child, and this is to say they give you the darkest prognosis you could possibly get. My advice would be find someone that will monitor you, someone that will keep an eye on it, because they can be wrong.

Jeff Samelson: 18:32

Bob did great job of the practical things there. Just add some things that if you get this diagnosis, what do you do? One of the first things I'd say is take a deep breath. Very often there's going to be a pressure to okay, you know, this is the result. So make a decision now. There's no need to make that decision, as Bob pointed out, these things can go on. So don't panic. Take that deep breath, don't make any rushed decisions and then spiritually pray and involve your pastor. You know, talk to him. This is something important. It's a spiritual issue. Talk to him before, talk to him during, don't wait until after.

Jeff Samelson: 19:11

Obviously, I think sometimes these questions are focused on the mother. We assume there's a father involved too. So make sure that you know your husband is very much a part of all these conversations as well. And just following up with with Bob's advice of getting a second opinion, gather good information. There's. There's some unreliable. You know things you probably can pick up on social media and the internet. But find the good stuff, get the facts and make sure that what you're being told lines up with that and that you fully understand what's being told to you.

Christa Potratz: 19:44

That's all really great advice too, because I mean I've heard of some situations too where somebody maybe had that first round of the screening and then they were told, oh yeah, your kid, you know, has this much chance of having Down syndrome or something, and then their kid was born completely fine too. So sometimes, yes, getting second opinions or just taking time in that situation would be really beneficial.

Bob Fleischmann: 20:12

Now, one of the things to keep in mind with regard to second opinions is a lot of people will make the mistake, you know. They'll ask their doctor I'd like to get a second opinion. Do you recommend someone? No, no, no, that's not how a second opinion works, because generally, the doctor is going to recommend somebody who thinks just like he does, you know, or she does, and you need to step outside of it, and a lot of times it's unfortunate, but a lot of times you have to take the initiative yourself.

Bob Fleischmann: 20:38

Now we all become hand tied by. You know we're part of this. You know network or that network. Our insurance covers this and doesn't cover that. It's a tough field to navigate, but remember, remember what's at stake here. We're talking about a life and so you want to be sure. And some institutions, you know, have a second opinion type network that they work of. I don't know to what degree there's kinship in it. Is it going to be? You know, their buddy that's going to be recommended to you, but there is help out there and you got to get, got to pursue it. You have to.

Jeff Samelson: 21:16

We've talked about. You know the the why of the prenatal testing and the diagnosis and things like that. You know there are good reasons and bad reasons. They're right, right and wrong. The right is I want to be prepared. There's apparently a risk of x thing happening. I want to be prepared for that. Or maybe it's simply I want to be tested to know if there is a risk of any sort there. But wrong kind of testing is you know something, increasingly an option today is people who have this I want to designer baby kind of thing. You know, maybe it's well, I want one with this eye color and this hair color or whatever. And increasingly they're getting closer to being able to test that for that kind of stuff. But also just the sense of well, life should be free of any challenges.

Jeff Samelson: 22:06

There shouldn't be any problems, so the only right baby for me is a perfect baby, and so if I'm going to learn that there's anything I want to know, if there's anything wrong with my baby and if it's imperfect in any way, then then I don't want it. That's a wrong kind of motivation and you know we certainly want to avoid that ourselves as Christians, and that's probably something also that we want to discourage. You know when, when we come across it in. You know, conversations with friends and things like that, just to you know, encourage then this attitude of well, whatever God gives you, that's a blessing and rejoice in it.

Bob Fleischmann: 22:42

The other thing, too, is to keep in mind that when you get a diagnosis of a problem, don't walk it alone. I mean just beyond mother and father wrestling with it. Loop in your pastor, loop in you know your, your your strongest Christian friend. You sometimes need somebody that's going to tell you things that maybe you don't always want to hear. You know somebody who's somebody who's going to be more objective and not to be, you know, so wrapped up, because it is a highly emotional matter when you get these. But just just remember, just remember this the vast, vast, vast majority of pregnancies go through without a problem. I mean so, you know, there's nothing that we're having in this conversation here that suggests that, well, maybe I won't have a child, you know, maybe I should avoid it. They, they do come out. Okay, you know we're. We're talking about those times when there's a little, you know, burp in the process, something that needs to be explored further, and you really can, you know, pursue it with a mindset towards assuring you've done everything possible to have a successful pregnancy.

Christa Potratz: 23:54

Anything else that we should kind? Of mention on this topic.

Jeff Samelson: 24:01

We've definitely talked that there are positives to this. But just kind of summing up some of the cautions when we're dealing with this three eyes One is invasiveness. Recognize that some of this testing is kind of invasive. Stick a needle in and grab something from the placenta.

Christa Potratz: 24:22

There's risk involved with that and that's usually the diagnostic test. Yeah, when you're at that level.

Jeff Samelson: 24:29

There are other tests that are basically they take a sample of the mother's blood and look for certain genetic markers that would be present there. That's not so, but be cautious of the invasive kind, because there's risk involved with that. Another is inaccuracy. Some of the testing that is out there for particular conditions or whatever, is only at like 50% accuracy, but it's sold as being a lot more accurate than that. So make sure that you understand exactly what level of accuracy the various test has. And sometimes I think Bob mentioned this it can be accurate at month three, but by month seven it's resolved itself, and so be aware of that. And then, another final caution is impatience. Don't make or take irrevocable decisions in the moment. There's often a sense of, well, this is a problem, we've got to resolve it now. Don't let that motivate you. Don't let the doctor's sense of we got to hurry this up I'll also lead to that kind of irresponsibility either.

Bob Fleischmann: 25:41

And I know that I sound kind of almost academic get that second or third opinion and so forth. There is a very harsh emotional reality here and that is most. Any of us are crushed when you hear the possibility that there might be something wrong with your unborn child. We lost our first child through miscarriage.

Christa Potratz: 26:03

And it was just it was a miscarriage.

Bob Fleischmann: 26:04

We didn't have any testing or anything like that to just happen, and so, but part of it is remember who is the author of life and death that's God.

Bob Fleischmann: 26:16

And in his role, he makes a decision, and you're not always happy with it, but he is God and our judgment gets clouded A lot of times. We form these wild imaginations of bonding and all that kind of stuff. I mean granted, it also happens, but I mean we have these imaginations that are fostered by our culture and our environment and get as emotionally attached to God, or maybe become more emotionally attached to God than even to the pregnancy, and so that when you get something like this, you recognize that okay, god's saying I've got more in store for you. You don't know what the future's gonna hold, but let's take one more step, let's take one more step, and so forth. You just don't wanna get into the position where that step is going to be, that you usurp God's authority over life and death and you make the decision to bring about death.

Christa Potratz: 27:15

Yeah, no, I was gonna ask too if there were any other biblical type of principles that we could add to this conversation as well.

Bob Fleischmann: 27:25

And that would be your steward of life. We have to take care of life.

Jeff Samelson: 27:29

And, in line with what Bob was saying, trust God, not just to take care of you, but trust that he also is capable of the miraculous, and sometimes that miraculous comes through human hands. There have been some really amazing developments in medicine and science in recent years that doctors doing surgery on babies in the womb to correct congenital deformities and things like that, and it's successful and the child was born, everything's fine. And it's just to think that they're doing this. They're operating on organs that are the size of Fingernail and it's just amazing the things that can happen today.

Jeff Samelson: 28:14

Yes, people are doing that, but these are also gifts from God and embrace those and trust that we're not going to assume that God is going to give the outcome that we want when we learn something negative, but trust that he's able to and pray.

Christa Potratz: 28:34

Thank you both for this conversation and just want to also remind all of our listeners too, that the Christian Life Resource website has information too, on this topic and others related to it. You can find that at ChristianLifeResourcescom, and if you have any questions about the podcast at all, you can reach us at lifechallengesus, and we look forward to seeing you back next time. Thanks a lot, bye.

Paul Snamiska: 29:04

Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at ChristianLifeResourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit ChristianLifeResourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.