Join us as we navigate the choppy waters of capital punishment with history as our guide and current legal realities as our backdrop. From the fluctuating tides of federal executions in the United States to the deep ethical quandaries posed by issues of mental health and innocence, we leave no stone unturned. We probe scriptural interpretations that both advocate for and challenge the death penalty, prompting a layered discussion that will challenge your convictions and broaden your understanding of divine justice.
If you've ever pondered the balance of governmental authority and spiritual doctrine, you will find this dialogue both enlightening and stirring. We give voice to the concerns that plague many Christians: the sanctity of life weighed against the cries for retribution and the pursuit of a justice system that embodies fairness and consistency. Through heartfelt reflections and critical insights, we, along with our guests, wrestle with the complex interplay of crime, punishment, and the Christian call to mercy. This episode doesn't seek to preach or provide easy answers but rather to engage your heart and mind in the pursuit of thoughtful consideration regarding one of society's most profound moral issues.
Join us as we navigate the choppy waters of capital punishment with history as our guide and current legal realities as our backdrop. From the fluctuating tides of federal executions in the United States to the deep ethical quandaries posed by issues of mental health and innocence, we leave no stone unturned. We probe scriptural interpretations that both advocate for and challenge the death penalty, prompting a layered discussion that will challenge your convictions and broaden your understanding of divine justice.
If you've ever pondered the balance of governmental authority and spiritual doctrine, you will find this dialogue both enlightening and stirring. We give voice to the concerns that plague many Christians: the sanctity of life weighed against the cries for retribution and the pursuit of a justice system that embodies fairness and consistency. Through heartfelt reflections and critical insights, we, along with our guests, wrestle with the complex interplay of crime, punishment, and the Christian call to mercy. This episode doesn't seek to preach or provide easy answers but rather to engage your heart and mind in the pursuit of thoughtful consideration regarding one of society's most profound moral issues.
On today's episode.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz:Hi and welcome back. My name is Christa Potratz and I'm here today with pastors Bob Fleischmann and Jeff Samelson, and today we're going to talk about the death penalty. I don't know, it might come as a surprise to you. It almost kind of feels like a surprise to me that we have not talked about this issue yet. On the podcast We've talked about a lot of different issues and things, but this is one that we haven't touched on before, so this will be our first time talking about that and specifically we are going to talk about the Christian perspective on the death penalty too. Just starting us off a little bit here what are some of the laws and just a little bit of like the history behind the death penalty and where it's permitted nowadays?
Jeff Samelson:Leaving aside for now the biblical precedents and arguments and things like that, historically the death penalty has pretty much always existed everywhere. Pretty much always been the case, in whatever culture you go to, where there is a sense that there are certain crimes or offenses that you commit and that puts your life in jeopardy, whether it's you're going to be killed officially by some kind of government action or whether it's simply a recognition that, well, you killed Phil. Phil's brother now has the right to kill you. There's always been something like that. We only really get to calling it the technically capital punishment when it's the government in some form that is exercising it.
Jeff Samelson:But in terms of where it is legal, I think there are probably a lot of Americans who are surprised to hear that death penalty still happens here, and I certainly know that places in Europe and such that people are just like aghast to think that you Americans still execute some of your criminals. They think that's just horribly backward and so forth. There are fewer and fewer places on the planet now where it's practiced, but there are still quite a few where it is. It is hardly disappeared and unfortunately, some of the places where it's going strongest are places like Communist China and things like that where we would really wish they weren't doing it quite so often. So that's kind of the legal and historical situation. Ethically, really, it depends on your beliefs. Some people are going to say, yeah, this is okay, others are going to say it's not. And theologically, I think we can get into that a little bit more with a later question.
Bob Fleischmann:More countries do not have it than countries that do. That's the current status of it. It goes through waves. Right now, the wave is if you've got a mental defect of some sort, should you be executed? And then they'll talk about different countries and what a high number of people who have been diagnosed of having some deficiency have been executed. So there's always, right now, we're part of a culture that explains every action away by a mental defect trauma when they were a child, and so forth and then the presumption is that that's therefore maybe doesn't excuse the crime, but would exempt you from the worst of the punishments, which would be arguably execution.
Christa Potratz:How many states do it today? Ballpark, I Googled it.
Jeff Samelson:Okay, yes, and the answer that came up was that six of the 50 states currently are using it. Those were Alabama, arizona, mississippi, missouri, oklahoma and no surprise to most people Texas. There is a good number of other states where the law still permits or even calls for the death penalty, but in those states they've simply chosen not to follow through. Or there's maybe a court order that it just said you can't do this for the time being, and they don't actually execute. They still have people on death row, but there's no expectation that they're actually going to be executed.
Christa Potratz:Okay, well, that's really interesting. It's not, I guess, as maybe prevalent as people would think, but it makes the headlines yes.
Jeff Samelson:And federally federal executions had stopped. Then during the Trump presidency they were restarted. I think there was something like 11 or 12 executions during the Trump presidency and then as soon as the Biden presidency began, they stopped them again. So it kind of goes by who's in charge as to whether or not federal crimes are the capital punishment is used.
Christa Potratz:So what can we really draw in from the Bible in terms of if it is God-pleasing to permit the death penalty?
Bob Fleischmann:The scripture permits the death penalty God-pleasing. Well, anything that God would say is permissible and you do technically would be God-pleasing, unless you mess it up. For example, you leverage the death penalty to take the life of somebody who truly isn't guilty, which is probably the predominant movement that's working at now, is that we don't want to execute innocent people. And so they'll say we've got so many innocent people. Well, a lot of these innocent people are innocent based on technicality, in other words, weren't properly represented.
Bob Fleischmann:And it always reminded me when I, for five years early in my ministry, I did prison ministry and it was funny because I had no training in prison ministry so I was caught off guard and all of a sudden I realized that the first 12 guys that I was assigned to visit, all of them, he used the same line I'm not guilty, of which the crime I was convicted, and they said it that way. And pretty soon you come to realize that my retort would always be so what crime should they have convicted you of? Because everyone gets caught up when you deal with prisoners, they get caught up in the technicalities of the law. So now it's no longer, you know, did I really commit that offense? It was, you know, extenuating circumstances. I wasn't properly represented, that kind of stuff. And so the Innocence Project, which I like, I mean, I like anything that would protect an innocent person, why would I not like that, you know? But a lot of what they do sometimes catches it in that area, you know, and that always makes me a little bit nervous.
Jeff Samelson:We have the scriptural basis for capital punishment very early in the Bible. Cain, after he kills Abel, is expecting that someone else is going to kill him in punishment for that, and God kind of commutes his sentence there. But then it's made explicit after the flood. You know, one of the reasons Genesis 6 tells us that God decided to send the flood was that there was so much violence on the earth. And after the flood he's basically saying this cannot continue. You know, it's part of the reason why I sent this flood. And so in Genesis 9, he's giving instructions to Noah and the seven other survivors of the flood. He says I will hold each animal and each person responsible for your lifeblood. I will hold each man responsible for the life of his brother. Whoever sheds man's blood by man, his blood shall be shed for.
Jeff Samelson:God made man in his own image, and so that's set up right there as yeah there is a consequence for murder and that is that you know you took someone else's life unjustly. Your life also is forfeit as a result of that. And when we look at the legal codes that are given to Israel in Exodus and Leviticus and such, you know very clearly the death penalty is called for for various things. But one thing that's important to note with all of that first of all, there is room for mercy, as we see when God, for instance, does not command that David be punished for arranging the death of Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba.
Jeff Samelson:But principle is, you know, and this goes with the eye for eye, tooth for tooth type of the code, the punishment is proportionate to the crime, because natural human instinct is to take vengeance, which is always going to be more than, and life for life is actually putting a bit of a limitation on it. So instead of, hey, you killed my brother Phil, so I'm going to wipe your family out which was kind of a natural sinful nature kind of thing it's okay, you killed my brother Phil, your life is forfeit, but no one else's. And so when we look at you know, the Bible's okay and permission of and authorization for the death penalty, for capital punishment. It's helpful to remember that this is you know as much of a death penalty. You know as much of a matter of limitation as it is a matter of justice.
Christa Potratz:Oftentimes we hear people just kind of maybe corner Christians or people to like well, how can you be for the death penalty, like as a Christian, that's killing or you know all your pro life, but you're also for the death penalty? How can you be both? How would somebody respond to a comment like that?
Jeff Samelson:Well, I think one of the first things I would do if someone came to me with that would I'd ask them to explain. How exactly do you see that as a contradiction?
Christa Potratz:I think in their mind it's just like killing. If you think killing is wrong, you know how can you promote killing.
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, but I would encourage them to dig down a little deeper into that, because that's what my answer would do, and it would be more helpful if they understood the assumptions that were behind it, because there's nothing anti-life about, or anti-innocence about, favoring the death penalty. There's no contradiction in being pro-life and supporting capital punishment. It's actually a matter of consistency. Just give the caveat here I'm by no means saying that if you are pro-life, you absolutely have to be in favor of capital punishment in every situation. But when we argue against things like abortion and euthanasia, we are calling it wrong as morality does, as scripture does, to deliberately take the lives of people who have done nothing deserving of death. But when we argue for capital punishment for murderers, we are calling it very wrong to take the lives of people who have done nothing deserving death. That's why those murderers have been convicted and we are calling it right to punish the guilty appropriately for what they have done. They have done something deserving of death and so therefore they should get that as the appropriate punishment.
Bob Fleischmann:It does get down to. Why is a Christian even pro-life? Why does a Christian stand against abortion? It's because all of life was created in the image of God. It was God grants life. It is God who is the author of life, and so it's an affront not just to human life, it's an affront to God, it's an affront to the Creator, and I, like Jeff's, you've got to always be careful when they come after you with these things. You've got to make them stop and explain themselves, because usually they begin to fall all over themselves, because it's an inconsistent role. Where it does get to be a problem, though, is when pro-life people criticize other pro-life people for being in favor of the death penalty.
Bob Fleischmann:No, I want to, just for the record, say God permits the death penalty. I'm not sure we're fair with it, I'm not sure we can be fair with it, and I worry more about it now than I would have worried about it 2,000 years ago. Because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of most will go cold. That means people will leverage even the act of justice to their favor. They will imprison innocent people, they will make it look bad just to get rid of people. So I think those are genuine concerns.
Bob Fleischmann:And yet, even if this, of course, is controversial, but even if an innocent person should happen to die which I think probably has happened over well, happened with Jesus Even if an innocent dies, god is the author of life and he will still work it out for good Christians who, when people live only for this world, they take death as the absolute worst possible thing. I think the way Jeff explained it, in that it's eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. It's equal to equal. It's beating the world on the world's terms, but God still has a bigger playbook, so that even in death there's life.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, I mean, jeff, do you have any thoughts? I know Bob's talked a little bit on mistake and execution of innocent people dying.
Jeff Samelson:Well, certainly it is a tragedy when that happens, of course and we're not going to ever pretend that it doesn't Everybody could have all the evidence in the world against them and slam dunk conviction, and it still could be that they were actually innocent and they just were not able to establish that.
Bob Fleischmann:But it does happen.
Jeff Samelson:But we appreciate that there's a societal trade-off. The good of lots of murderers being appropriately punished and the cost of caring for them for their lifetimes eliminated that that good of justice there and can also argue the effect that it has on other people saying hmm, maybe I shouldn't commit murder if I myself am going to end up being killed.
Jeff Samelson:But that's on one hand, and on the other hand you have the possibility that somebody innocent is going to be occasionally executed and you balance these things. You could say, well, okay, if we had 10 who are rightfully executed and one who is wrongfully executed. That's just not a good balance and I wouldn't be in favor of that. But if it's 10,000 who are rightfully executed and one that's wrongfully executed, well then you might be a little bit more comfortable with it and every person's comfort level with that's going to be a little different.
Jeff Samelson:But if, as a society or if you're running the government, if you can't stomach the thought of any innocent person being mistakenly executed, then it makes sense to not practice capital punishment anymore If you're not able to be confident enough in that. But if you're to argue that because an X% of cases an innocent person is executed, it is therefore 100% immoral to practice capital punishment, that it is wrong, that's kind of setting up an impossible standard, because nothing in life is 100%. We can't know anything with 100% certainty, and so you do the best you can. And that means that the questions for us politically in society are all about. Okay, how close can we get to being fair?
Bob Fleischmann:Thank you, you know, an interesting question to wrestle with would be, if we did not have capital punishment and I'm probably one of those who doesn't warm up to it at all, I just I do get squeamish. But if we didn't have it, what still reflects the principle of capital punishment, in terms of it venerates a sacredness to human life that's been violated? And my problem runs deeper than the whole capital punishment question this idea that we rehabilitate criminals and so forth. I'm not sure that that was always the intent. I think the idea was is that there are consequences for doing wrong things and you face the consequences. Do I believe in rehabilitating criminals? Absolutely. I mean, my brother works in that area, teaches them make a living, they've served their time, come out. And how do you still make the punishment clearly comparable to the crime? When it comes to somebody coming in, you know of course everybody will.
Bob Fleischmann:Somebody could write us and say well, you'd feel a whole lot different if they murdered your child or murdered your spouse or something like that, and I think you would. I mean that's when Jeff talked about vengeance. You know there is something about that that makes you, you know it enrages you, you know the idea of it. But the thing is is that the idea when God instituted it? He gave the reason. He said because in man's, in God's image, was man created. That's why you don't take it.
Bob Fleischmann:So if we don't have capital punishment, then society does have to wrestle with the question, because we're worried that an innocent man might die. Society has to wrestle with the question how do we still create this idea that what you've done was taken, something that was created in God's image, I mean? But I think they have to do something, whether it's. Some people will say well, last thing I want to do is spend millions of dollars, take care of them in a prison or anything. Maybe what they do is it's hard labor, rest of your life, I mean maybe. My point is is that scripture clearly allows capital punishment. That's the Genesis 9.6 passage makes that clear. It's not commanded for all time and there were always exceptions for it. But what I think is clear is you still want to somehow venerate the nature of the crime. It's a huge consequence of what you did.
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, and I think a big part of it is you mentioned something about. It's not just that crime. You've got to look at the whole system and there's an issue of consistency there. If you're saying, well, I trust the justice system to do everything fairly except in cases with the death penalty, something's off there. If you're really concerned that there's somebody routinely people being sent to death row because the system was stacked against them, well then you've got a problem with the entire system. That it's not good that somebody sentenced to 30 years in prison for something they didn't do, in the same way that it's not good that they're sentenced to death if it's for something that they didn't do.
Jeff Samelson:And so our goal should always be, as a society and if you're in a position of influence in the government, that there's a consistency, the principle of equality under the law, and even if you're dealing in a non-democratic society, you want to have a situation where there's a sense of okay, I understand that if I commit this crime, I am going and I am caught, I am going to suffer this penalty as a result, and you want it to be consistent and you don't want it to change because, well, I'm a member of this group.
Jeff Samelson:Therefore, I'm going to be treated better or treated worse that you are a member of that group, and so I'm expecting that you're going to treat me better or treat me worse as a result of that, and so the goal is always going to be a law that a justice system that treats everybody equally. We want that reflected. If you have no confidence whatsoever in your justice system, well yeah, then you probably are not going to be very comfortable with or in favor of, capital punishment, but if you're just singling that out as the one thing, then you really need to take a step back and look at things some more.
Christa Potratz:So a question too then is as a Christian, can you oppose, and I think we've kind of talked about okay, it is biblically, there is support for the death penalty, but if you are a Christian and it just doesn't sit right with you, is that okay too? Is it okay to oppose it?
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, bob already said that he feels squeamish about it, and I'd say that the only way it would be wrong to oppose the death penalty as a Christian would be if you came right out and said scripture does not allow this.
Jeff Samelson:If you said it's un-Christian period to do this Because, as pointed out, scripture clearly authorizes the government to exercise the death penalty. You can't deny that on a basis of scripture. But if your argument, on the other hand, is more nuanced in the sense of well, yeah, I understand that it's possible, but I don't think it's possible to do it fairly in our situation and therefore we should not do it until such time, or if ever we reach such time where it can be done fairly, you know, you could also probably make some kind of argument that as a society we've advanced far enough, that we're beyond killing criminals and we've learned how to rehabilitate them, or something. You can also argue that capital punishment is counterproductive to good order in society and that it doesn't actually deter violence but may perhaps encourage more of it. I mean, those are legitimate arguments. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with them, but those are arguments that a Christian could legitimately make.
Bob Fleischmann:You know, one thing, which is the way you ask the question, christa it's kind of a little issue I have, even with the abortion issue is, you know, should we oppose abortion? The problem is that it becomes an ideological thing. You know, like I'm against the death penalty or I'm in favor of the death penalty and I'll go back to what I said earlier there's a fundamental, a foundational principle behind it, and that is it was an affront to the Creator, you know. And so I think opposing the death penalty should go hand in hand with having to come up with an alternative. I'm not convinced that serving the rest of your life in prison is equal to taking a life. I mean, I think that misses the point and I don't have the answer. I mean this has to be a frustrating podcast to listen to, because we raise all the concerns but we don't have the answers. But that's part of the difficulty of it, you know.
Christa Potratz:And, but I Please keep listening to the podcast. I have a lot of answers.
Bob Fleischmann:It's a challenging issue in that we've seen corruption on occasion and we've seen gross injustice on occasion and we've seen rightful justice on occasion. And the thing is, it's not always a question of how do I feel about it, but what does it always look like to God and I think, as a society, if we step back and again? Like I said up front, I'm squeamish about the death penalty, I am, but if we step back from the death penalty and just kind of treat it like well, it was unfortunate that they died, it was unfortunate that they planned it out, it was unfortunate that it was first degree, you know, unfortunate, but we'll just put them in prison, throw away the key. I just I don't think that satisfies what happened, because you violated the will of the Creator and he established what a violation of His will should carry the penalty. And okay, I'm going to grant you the argument that we can't adjudicate it fairly, but then how do you still defend the Creator? And I think that's the issue that people should be wrestling with, you know.
Jeff Samelson:And I think some Christian opposition to capital punishment is rooted in a problem that shows up elsewhere and I think we've discussed here before in terms of the government and such, in terms of Christians expecting their government to behave as though it was Christian and basically saying, oh well, we as Christians are supposed to have mercy, so therefore our government should do the merciful thing and not kill somebody who's been condemned to death and it's mixing a whole lot of things about the two kingdoms and who's supposed to have authority, aware and responsibility and inware and things like that. But it is literally the government's job to punish wrongdoing. Again, you know, the big question we haven't completely answered here is to what extent is that appropriate to? You know, kill people, you know, as part of that punishment. But it is at the government's duty to punish wrongdoing and we should not make the mistake of thinking, oh well, yeah, but that doesn't. I'm not comfortable with that, I don't like that, that doesn't seem very Christian. But it doesn't matter if the government seems Christian or not, because that's not its job.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, we go through these cycles where we confuse mercy and justice. For God to have decreed that that was a decree of justice and maybe in a sense, the justice that showed mercy. I mean, if people venerated human life in the way God described, that would be mighty merciful to the human race. But the moment we start chipping away at that, we begin to see a decline in all sorts of other areas.
Jeff Samelson:And that confusion is. I remember a case from this must have been sometime in the 1990s. There was a woman who was on death row and she deserved to be, in the sense of she committed multiple murders or something like that, and she became a Christian while she was in prison and she was making the argument, or people were making it for her oh, she's a Christian now, she's repented, she shouldn't be executed. And I remember thinking what does that have to do with anything?
Bob Fleischmann:Right, it missed the point.
Christa Potratz:I mean a lot of really great points brought up today. Do we have anything else to share at all?
Bob Fleischmann:This was a tough one. I mean, it's just. It's a tough topic because a lot of times it depends on what position you're in. If we're talking about a family member, you're going to probably feel differently than if you're dealing with it as an academic.
Christa Potratz:Personally I kind of come from a place like I don't know. It just doesn't sit right with me. I mean pure emotion just to it. But I mean I do feel like in those cases where a family or somebody has, you know, really is very invested in what had happened, I would think, yeah, I mean that makes sense.
Bob Fleischmann:More times than not, families of victims after an execution will say we feel justice has been done. They feel justice has been done, they recognize it was a decree of justice, a life for a life, and they recognize justice was done. It's just hard. I mean, just as a general rule, I don't ask people to do for me what I wouldn't do myself and I would have trouble firing the bullet, pushing the button, whatever would be involved with an execution.
Christa Potratz:Right and I resist it. And when I say to like, oh, it just doesn't sit right with me, I mean there are a lot of Bible stories that don't necessarily sit right with me either you know like I mean, it's just kind of one of those things where it just kind of makes you feel just a little uncomfortable, I guess.
Jeff Samelson:It's helpful to have a historical perspective perhaps, on political systems and such, because I think just about anybody would say that if all 50 states in the federal government were in the US were currently still practicing capital punishment, I think just about anybody would be more comfortable with our current justice system administering that than with pretty much any government that existed 300 years ago, because there's so much more, you know, there's an adversarial system in the courts, you know, with much more attention to fairness and equality and all these kinds of things, we'd say, well, yeah, if it's gonna happen, this is kind of the ideal kind of situation in which it would be happening.
Jeff Samelson:Just another thought I lived overseas for a little while in a country that took punishment very seriously. Not only did they have very clear capital punishment and it wasn't just in the case of multiple murder, I mean, one murder was enough but they also had, I guess, what you'd call corporal punishment as well, that there would be crimes for which you would be caned to take this long piece of cane like bamboo and you'd get it swacked on the back with that, and not in a light way for various crimes, and it had a definite deterrent effect in that society because people understood this will happen and therefore I'm not going to do this thing. We shouldn't be too quick to discount the deterrent effect of things like capital punishment. And that goes back to the question of consistency, because if you have system, well, some people get capital punishment and other people don't, well, then it loses all of the deterrent effect Because you never know which category you're going to be. So you might take your chances.
Christa Potratz:Well, thank you both for this discussion today. Yeah, maybe hard, difficult topic, but still a good one to cover, and if anybody has any questions on this, please send them our way. You can reach us at lifechallengesus and we look forward to having you back next time. Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit christianliferesourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.