Join us as we discuss what it truly means to guide our little ones in faith, accepting that while the path isn't guaranteed, our influence is profound. We share stories from the trenches of parenting, acknowledging that our imperfections play a role in how our children's spiritual lives unfold.
Our heartfelt conversation also delves into the art of weaving God's love into the fabric of everyday life. By embedding 'God talk' in daily life and emphasizing the power of reading to our children, we explore how these practices lay a moral foundation that not only stands the test of time but also possesses the strength to influence generations to come. Join us for a conversation that's as much about the legacy we leave as it is about the children we raise.
Join us as we discuss what it truly means to guide our little ones in faith, accepting that while the path isn't guaranteed, our influence is profound. We share stories from the trenches of parenting, acknowledging that our imperfections play a role in how our children's spiritual lives unfold.
Our heartfelt conversation also delves into the art of weaving God's love into the fabric of everyday life. By embedding 'God talk' in daily life and emphasizing the power of reading to our children, we explore how these practices lay a moral foundation that not only stands the test of time but also possesses the strength to influence generations to come. Join us for a conversation that's as much about the legacy we leave as it is about the children we raise.
And today's episode.
Bob Fleischmann:There's a lot of parents that I've talked to over the years that have come in tears to say that their child has done something wild, done something crazy, gone off the deep end, left the church, left the faith. Where did we go wrong? What did we do? And so forth. And first of all, I think you've got to evaluate the object of your training, and that is the child. God did not give you what we used to call a tabula rosa, it didn't give you the blank tablet, so it's entirely of your modeling. We're told already that the inclination of the heart is evil. So you're already behind the eight ball. You're working at a disadvantage. This child is already starting with a heart that's inclined to do wrong things.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz:Hi and welcome back. I'm Christa Potratz, and I'm here today with pastors Bob Fleischmann and Jeff Samelson, and today we're going to talk about one of the famous proverbs that we hear a lot about. It is the one that comes from Proverbs 22.6, and it says Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. So today we want to use this proverb as a point for discussion in talking about parenting and about training up children in Christian homes. And so, first off, like when we look at this proverb, what exactly is it? Is this a promise for us as Christian parents that if we do a good job training up our children and telling them about Jesus, that when they go out into the world they're always going to remember what they learned from us at home?
Jeff Samelson:Well, it is often presented by Christians to other Christians as some kind of guarantee, kind of statement, as an absolute assurance that if you do everything right raising your kids as Christians, then they will turn out as Christians in the future. And while it's wonderful to think that that's the case, it's very frustrating when Christians will find out that their kids grow up and aren't what they expected them to be, and it leads to all sorts of guilt and questioning what did I do wrong? Did I fail?
Jeff Samelson:And that's why it's helpful to take a closer look and realize that well, no this is one of the proverbs, and the proverbs are more general truths, observations about the way things are. Certainly, there is a strong truth behind it that, yeah, if you trained your child up perfectly well, then yeah, if your perfect child was trained perfectly, then your child would turn out perfectly. But there's sin involved in every step. Parents are sinful, children are sinful, the world we all live in is sinful, and so there are things that can go wrong, and so, in that sense, we take it as a general truth. This is something parents yes, they can hold on to it. This is a principle that I can work with and I can have some confidence in this, but at the same time, it's not something that's a panacea that we just say, well, okay, I did what I had to do and now everything's going to be fine because God promised.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, and even the apostle Paul. You get into the New Testament. He says you know the good that I would do, that I do not do evil, I would not do, that I keep on doing what a wretched man I am. And he's noting there that even with the desire, the good that I want to do, which he tells us he learned through Gamaliel and some of the great teachers of the time the good that he would want to do, you know you're constantly fighting this internal battle. I think Jeff points out a great point. You know that the proverbs are out there to kind of help you. They're not formulas. This is not the you know God's instruction manual to accomplish this.
Bob Fleischmann:And I, in a way, you kind of like it to be that way because you know we often in pro-life work, you know we'll quote the proverb that says speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. And when we talk about that, you know, if you ever notice it doesn't tell you how you should speak up. Do you speak up with standing on the street corner yelling? Do you speak up in a public speaking setting? Do you speak up by writing a letter? Do you in a conversation? Do you just stand your ground on something. It doesn't tell you how, it just says that this is the way God wants you to live.
Bob Fleischmann:You speak up for those who can't speak for themselves, and the same way, too, you know God wants you to raise children in the way they should go. And of course, why would you? Why would you raise children in the way they should go? Your first inclination would be why? I want them to be successful, I want them to be prosperous.
Bob Fleischmann:But you're Christians and, as believers in the true God, your mindset's always heavenward, and so you raise a child in the way they should go, because you want the child to be in heaven. That's the direction that you're focused on. So when you're making decisions about homeschooling, procular schooling, public schooling, when you're making decisions upon private college, public college, university, tech school, going right out in the workforce, all those kinds of decision-makings that occur are always encapsulated with this one common Christian cause, and that is to be in heaven, to be forever with God. That's always the focus. And then you backtrack and you say now I look at all the decisions I make because we are imperfect, we're going to mess up all the time. I always like to tell everybody that when I first got married, I was an expert on child-wearing and then God gave me children and that pretty much disappeared. Five children later. I'm not so good I can say too much more.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, and, bob, you bring up a good point too, which is like that part of the verse where it says in the way he should go. Because I think too, as parents, especially in our culture or day and age, we lose sight of the way that he should go and that it isn't necessarily heavenward. I mean we kind of think like, okay, well, yeah, I mean we're Christians, so of course it's going to be heavenward, but then we do put a lot of emphasis on education, on job, on even just the part of life. I'm in now with young kids, sports teams, right, and there's just, I mean, yeah, like Christian home, we're Christian, that's underlying in everything we do. But yeah to the things that we really seem to be talking about our school, our sports are these things, and we're not really, I think, just kind of generally speaking, as Christians like talking a lot about the being Christian part of it.
Bob Fleischmann:I've always been struck by how impressionable children are, how quickly they learn, in that learn at a young age we oftentimes attach learning with cognitive development. In other words, the more they're able to do algebraic tables then the smarter they are to make logical deductions about how to live and what to do and so forth. The older I'm getting, the more I'm watching children and grandchildren, the more I'm becoming to the conclusion that they learn a vast amount of stuff by watching, observing. They hear the arguments, they see the priorities of what you watch on TV, they watch the way you interact with each other. They see all that and you see those studies.
Bob Fleischmann:A lot of those formative things take place very, very early in life when you truly lack a lot of those logical skills that we think would be a normal prerequisite for having it. And so when we talk about I think what you say is absolutely correct, chris, and that is it's easy to get sidelined. You get sidelined with sports, you get sidelined with careers and that kind of stuff. But I think, as children modeling, as husband and wife modeling, as Christian parents if you're a single parent, just modeling the way the priorities you set and what your children observe, it sinks in and it forges, I think, a path that again we're minded towards heaven. So we want them to be looking that direction.
Jeff Samelson:Darrell Bock, yeah, I think something else that is helpful, particularly just looking at this particular verse. We've been using the word train, and that's the most commonly used translation for the Hebrew word. In the translations that we're familiar with, particularly with the King James originally, and then also with more recent or the older NIV training. But I checked some other translations, there's train, train up, start or start off, a child dedicate, a child consecrate, and that difference made me say, okay, well, what's the actual root word here? And it is interesting that the basic meaning of the Hebrew word doesn't really have to do so much with teaching or instruction, which is what we kind of default to. It has more of the sense of setting the child in the direction and the purpose he is to go. And this is me, so I can't blame any lexicon or commentary for this. But I think of it in the sense that you train a plant in your garden or a tree in your yard that you want it to take on a certain shape, to produce in a certain way. You train it that way You're starting it off so that it ends up the way it's intended to direct. I suppose could even be another word that you use in that sense If you did not start or train it in that way, well, it would go kind of wild. It wouldn't have the shape, it wouldn't have the form, it wouldn't fulfill the purpose that it had. And I think, when you're thinking about this with your children, I think that's really helpful. It's like, okay, what is the shape, what is the form, what is the direction, what is the purpose that I want for this child, because it's what God wants for this child. How then do I start this child off this way and keep the child in this way? So that's how my son or daughter ends up. I think that takes some of the emphasis off of okay, I got to make sure he gets taught the right things and gets back into all these other things Like what's the model that I'm setting here? What are the restrictions that I am placing or not placing on my child?
Jeff Samelson:Ephesians 5, when Paul's talking about the relationships between parents and children. Yes, he repeats the commandment children obey your parents and the Lord. But then he also adds fathers, do not exasperate your children, because exasperating your children is a pretty good way to send them, the opposite of whatever direction you're telling them to go. So we keep all those things in mind. It's by no means a simple process. This isn't a quick fix or instruction book for how we do this, but it's a lifelong process that you want to start as soon as possible.
Bob Fleischmann:I was a pastor's kid growing up.
Christa Potratz:That's what they say and I think there was this reputation right that you come from this pastor's family and you're just bombarded with the word and you, like Bob always says, pendulum swing right and just kind of go way off in the other direction. I wonder too if that's a fear sometimes of people. If we talk too much about these things or do too much, we come too hard on them and then they're just going to go too far the other way. What would you kind of say to somebody that is maybe worried about that side of things?
Bob Fleischmann:Well, I like what Jeff said in that the emphasis really isn't so much on the training but rather just kind of modeling. There's a lot of parents that I've talked to over the years that have come in tears just saying that their child has done something wild, done something crazy, gone off the deep end, left the church, left the faith, when did we go wrong? What did we do? And so forth. And first of all, I think you've got to evaluate the object of your training and that is the child. God did not give you what we used to call a tabula rosa, it didn't give you the blank tablet, so it's entirely of your modeling. We're told already that the inclination of the heart is evil. So you're already behind the eight ball. You've already you're working at a disadvantage. This child will, is already starting with a heart that's inclined to do wrong things. So that's the first thing. So when you begin to start looking back at parenting, you say, oh my goodness, I failed. Remember you started with failure. That's the way it is. So that's the first thing. Secondly, I think when it comes to modeling, you've got to then look in the mirror and say the inclination of my heart is evil also. So I'm starting with failure, so I'm not going to always be as patient as I should be, I'm not always going to model the way I should model, and so forth. So you accept that.
Bob Fleischmann:Now, none of that makes you want to throw it all away and pay no attention to it, because the instructions of Scripture, the Proverbs, the commandments, all of that is given to people who are called upon to work with their limited skills, their limited abilities, and to not that I've already obtained all this or that I've already been made perfect, but I strive to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. It's you constantly work at it, and part of parenting is praying for your children. You model it, you pray it. But I would like to just emphasize and I don't think this is the holy grail of parenting, but I'd like to emphasize that what you prioritize as a parent, just figure that that's going to be exaggerated in your offspring, Not just reflected in your offspring, but exaggerated.
Bob Fleischmann:So if you, if you, like sports or love sports, you're either going to have children who are going to very much love sports or not care about it at all. I mean it just they seem to. It always seems to create a little bit of again this pendulum reaction to it. But when you, when you prioritize serving God, praying, talking about God, you're going to find a reaction in your children too. That's going to embrace it, or it might again be a pendulum swing where they reject it. Well, remember what they're working with. They're working with a heart that's constantly at battle and so sometimes it's. You know, it's the prodigal son you know, who was raised in the way he should go, and he did leave you from it.
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, and one of the interesting things about that parable and it's a minor detail and by no means want to make it too major, but he knew he could go home because he knew the home that he had been raised in. He knew that that was a place of love and forgiveness and as parents we want that to be kind of a minimal goal that our children, no matter how far they stray, will understand that in the end they can come home and that will be a place where they will find God's love and forgiveness.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, and I really I mean that's a brilliant point. I think how many of us, in raising our children, have, when they have left the house, have they felt that in this place you will find love and forgiveness? I think sometimes people will look at home and in this place, you know mom and dad loved me, you know they cared for me but I mean like forgiveness, the idea that I could go off and I can sow my wild oats, I can make all of these mistakes that I've made in life and like that prodigal son, like that wild, reckless son this is not an invitation, by the way, for people to go reckless.
Bob Fleischmann:But I mean, even then you come back home. And why? Because mom and dad know what it means to be lost because of their sin and saved because of God.
Jeff Samelson:And that's really the most important thing to model, because that's the gospel right there.
Christa Potratz:And I think too, like just kind of going along with the modeling as well, and I mean I in no way do this perfectly at all, but I think like one thing that I have just learned, too, is just saying more and having it be more of like a just a common occurrence, like that we're talking about God or praying.
Christa Potratz:I mean I have started praying a lot during the day just with the kids, like we're going to the car, or you know, I was on a field trip with my son and they were going ponding right and had to get all these little creatures out of the pond. And he didn't get any creatures, like the first time, and he was getting really down on himself and you know, all the kids right, like every little creature that they find, I mean, they're just making a huge deal about it and he's feeling really down. And I pulled him aside and I said you know, han, why don't we say a prayer, you know, and if it's God's will like you, you know you can find a creature at the next pond. And so then they went and he, and then he found a creature at the next pond, and so I pulled him aside again and I was like all right now. We got a thank God for refinding a creature.
Christa Potratz:And but you know, it's just that like really trying to make it a part of every day, right? I mean, there's constantly things we can be praying about all the time, and then you know, and I mean I always fall short to remembering to thank God when the things happen that I am requesting, but you know, just really showing that aspect of it every day too.
Bob Fleischmann:God talk in the home is, I think, terrific. This William Kilpatrick wrote that book why Johnny Can't Tell Right from Wrong. And in the book he talks about the value of parents spending time reading to their children and his idea is that first of all in the fairy tales Eesops and Anderson and.
Bob Fleischmann:Grimm that these are like many morality plays, they're modern day parables that you can teach you know deeper biblical truths from. But he also says it also creates a bonding between parent and the children. And I've always advised couples when they're getting married I said, when you start looking at God's gift of children, even as infants, just even if it's just a few minutes, just read to them at night and as they get older, pretty soon they're running, they're grabbing the storybook, they're bringing it to you. But I said it's valuable because it does that. And when God talk becomes common talk at home, it becomes common talk in their home. And I'm not talking about gratuitous God talk, I mean I'm talking about genuine. I oftentimes characterize we're like my parents.
Bob Fleischmann:Now, you know, when you get into your 80s you realize that at any time now chances are higher probability that at some point God's going to call you home and they'll talk about it. You know, while when God takes us, when God calls us, you know it's common talk, it's God talk, it's not just like when I die, but it's understanding the author and the terminator of life. God is going to be the one that does it. And I think when we parenthetically enclose all of our life around the folded hands of seeking God. You know, tim Keller once referred to God that we oftentimes treat him more like an assistant than the one over all things.
Bob Fleischmann:You know, because when things are going well we don't talk to God, but when we need something, it's kind of like asking your assistant to go and get me more staples, you know, and he said but when you talk about, you know, isn't it wonderful the way, look at the way God made the garden grow? And I know that when we take we've got kind of a nice garden here and raspberry plants and all that stuff, and whenever we have the grandkids around, we always talk about look at all God, isn't it incredible? Every year, at the right time, you know, and I keep a little gardening journal and we talk about every year right about this time, you know these come back and but I always do it within the context not of nature but of God.
Jeff Samelson:You're mentioning that the grandkids reminds me of something that I often told parents that if you're, you're thinking is okay. I want to raise my children so that when they grow up, they're Christians. You're not thinking quite big enough. Raise your children so that their children grow up to be Christians, because you don't want to just give your kids the minimum, you want to give them the full foundation so that they can then pass it on to the next generation. Because we've seen far too many cases where okay, yeah you know the kids are Christians.
Jeff Samelson:They show up to church maybe five, six times a year. They're saved. But what are they going to give their kids when they have so little themselves?
Christa Potratz:That gives me goosebumps, let me just you know.
Jeff Samelson:Then talk about what is probably the greatest thing you can do for your child I know you've already done it, it's really. It is to bring your child to the Lord for baptism. This is not mere symbolism, it's not a mere dedication. You know, consecrating your child to the Lord, basically making a promise that you're going to do everything that's in your power to raise this child as a Christian. This is God's work.
Jeff Samelson:Baptism is God stepping in and powerfully through water in the word, claiming that child as his own, making that little boy or that little girl a saved believer in Christ. Can we explain all of it? No, it's beyond our human, you know, understanding. But it's what God says happens in baptism. And beyond that, you have given your little boy or little girl an identity. The most important one is all a child of God, and you've given a destiny. He's going to heaven, she's going to be with Jesus, and so when you are training your child, then you know the way we're talking about, with shaping and direction set for him or her.
Jeff Samelson:It's not all on you. This is the Holy Spirit working inside your child, with you, in cooperation with you, actually much more. The other way you are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in this and his tools, then the word of God and what he has in baptism, you know, are doing this and of course you know what is it. You know we're told the word of God is useful for training and all types of righteousness and everything like that. That's exactly what you want going on and you've got this inside party. You know the Holy Spirit working in your child because you have baptized that child, and I think this is something that too many Christians take for granted and don't appreciate. They think they're all on their own and no, no, they're not. And of course it's tragedy. Then you know how many Christian parents and other denominations and such don't even see baptism as something they should do for their children and they're just tragically missing out on such a wonderful thing, for their children's growth is in the faith.
Christa Potratz:So what would we tell somebody then that says this verse train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. And they have viewed it as a promise. Is there something that we as Christians can say, or what would we kind of do if we hear somebody say this as a promise?
Jeff Samelson:Let's say first of all, by the same token, by which we don't want to take this Bible verse, this proverb, as a blanket statement of the way things always are going to turn out. We don't want to take a blanket approach to every individual. We're going to find out okay, why are you saying, you know, where are you in this? You know the mother of a newborn who's saying okay, how should I understand this? We're going to talk to her a little differently than the friend who's dealing with older, but we're going to talk to her With older, grown children.
Jeff Samelson:You know, in a case like that, we're not going to say, well, nope, sorry, you were wrong about that. I guess there's no chance your kids are coming back to the Lord now. That's neither wise nor something we could possibly know. We talked about the parable of the prodigal son earlier. Everyone had hidden, written off, but no, the Lord brought him home. That is possible and that is something to hold on to, but we hold on to it not in the sense of okay, well, there's nothing for me to do, it's just going to happen automatically. Well, that's, that's kind of sloughing off our own responsibility to at the very least pray. But at the same time, we would not want to in any way assist someone toward a point of losing faith in God because she thinks God has promised that Johnny is going to come home and Johnny never comes home. She might then turn to doubting God and say well, you promised, but if he didn't actually promise, then her faith shouldn't be impacted by that.
Bob Fleischmann:And I love the illustration, jeff, that you used of. So you figure that your children make it the church for the holidays and maybe three, four additional times in a year, five, six times. Oh yeah, they're Christian, but what they have done is they've depleted their arsenal in raising their children and the children after them. Because if you go from an opportunity to worship on a weekly basis to an opportunity of worshiping every other month, what do you think the next generation is going to do? Maybe the real issue is that when we're focused on living the way we ought to be living, demonstrating the priorities that God has asked us as we respond to the incredible love of God through Christ, we are training others in the way they should go, instead of working so hard on using the right formula, the right combination of educational tools and so forth, then we're going to accomplish this end goal. Quite honestly, the same truth holds for us. If we walk in the way that we should go, if we are students of Scripture, if we walk in it and our legions as heaven were to not earthbound, we're told that there lies in store for us eternal life. And when we live that way, we're also modeling, we're training others that way.
Bob Fleischmann:Going back a little bit to something Jeff had said about the value of baptism, the, when you consider the odds that are against you, every inclination of the human heart is evil. There is no hope. It is not possible for you to make a decision for God if every inclination of your heart is opposed to him. I mean, it just logically doesn't hold up. So how else does that happen? Well, that's because something more than symbolism occurs in baptism. The mere fact that I don't totally understand how a newborn child somehow now has faith is only testimony to my incompetence. Not God's. But through that the child learns to sit at the table and say come, lord, jesus, be my guest, and sits down at night time to go to bed and now I lay me down to sleep and goes to Sunday school and comes back and talks to us about the things that they've learned with excitement is because that barrier of sin that is humanly impenetrable has been divinely crushed through the sacrament.
Christa Potratz:So, as we kind of wrap up here, is there anything else we should talk about with, or anything else that comes to mind with this verse?
Jeff Samelson:Well, I'd just say that if you are a parent listening to this, or maybe a concerned friend or grandparent or whatever, and you're thinking, oh, it's too late. We didn't start right away when my child was born. He's three now. He's eight now, he's 13. Now it's never too late to start. Do what you can now and don't use neglecting to do what you could to shape your child as a Christian when it was little as an excuse for not doing anything. Now, when you can Do whatever, you can Start those family devotions, read those Bible stories, make sure your child is going to catechism instruction or whatever it is. I guess we can add the big bugaboo of almost every pastor Never, ever, ever, give your child the idea that once he's confirmed that he's graduated and he's done with church and school and learning about God and everything like that, keep up what you're doing and start it. If you haven't started it already, I get it.
Bob Fleischmann:And correctly identify the difference between our responsibility and a tool. For example, it's my responsibility to plant the garden. I get the tomato plants out there, get the cucumbers out there, those kinds of things. It's my responsibility to do it. Now, I may use it, use a shovel to dig it up, I may use the rototiller, I may use the mantis, I may use a rake, I may use a hoe, but they're all tools. The same thing too in the role of parenting. The tool might be a children's Bible storybook tool, it might be Sunday school, christian day school, it could be area Lutheran high school, christian college, but they're all tools. None of them replace the responsibility. They're just simply tools.
Bob Fleischmann:I never start the rototiller up and walk away and come back later with the expectation the garden's done. It's the way that I guide it, it's the way I use it, and it's the same way, too, with our children, whether it's, like I said, homeschooling or public schooling or Christian day school schooling, whatever the tool is, it's the way that you guide it, it's the way you use the tool that's going to have the impact on a child, and I think at times I've made the mistake in my own parenting responsibility of sometimes stepping away, whether it's leaving it to the pastor to handle it all in confirmation class, or leaving it to the Christian day school to do it all, or leaving it to the pastor in a sermon. We do this sometimes in our own families. We leave it to the pastor in a sermon to pretty much cover whatever we think is going to be ailing us for the week. And the reality is, this is the kind of nurture, the kind of work we should be doing at home on a daily basis.
Jeff Samelson:Mm-hmm.
Christa Potratz:Well, thank you both very much. I know this has given me a lot to chew on as well here, thinking about just modeling everything in every aspect for the Lord. So thank you so much, and thank you for listening to all of our listeners, and we hope to see you back next time. Bye.
Paul Snamiska:In Christ for every life challenge.