Discover the unseen forces at play behind the abortion debate, as we uncover the intricate web of financial interests and business influence. This episode peels back the curtain on the abortion industry's economic motivations and the stances businesses take on abortion rights. We tackle the tough questions: How does the flow of money sway opinions and political actions? And what ethical predicaments arise for individuals who must reconcile their spending habits with their pro-life values, especially when companies are increasingly willing to cover abortion-related costs for employees?
We then navigate through the moral maze of boycotting companies linked to abortion, illuminating how such actions intersect with the core mission of sharing the gospel. Can erecting barriers do more harm than good? Join us as we dissect the evolution of the abortion industry's financial strategies and the historical shifts in services offered by organizations like Planned Parenthood. Genuine persuasion and substantive conversation are the keys to fostering societal change on this deeply contentious issue. This episode isn't just a glance at a headline; it's an invitation to engage with the profound ethical dimensions that touch our lives, our beliefs, and our wallets.
Discover the unseen forces at play behind the abortion debate, as we uncover the intricate web of financial interests and business influence. This episode peels back the curtain on the abortion industry's economic motivations and the stances businesses take on abortion rights. We tackle the tough questions: How does the flow of money sway opinions and political actions? And what ethical predicaments arise for individuals who must reconcile their spending habits with their pro-life values, especially when companies are increasingly willing to cover abortion-related costs for employees?
We then navigate through the moral maze of boycotting companies linked to abortion, illuminating how such actions intersect with the core mission of sharing the gospel. Can erecting barriers do more harm than good? Join us as we dissect the evolution of the abortion industry's financial strategies and the historical shifts in services offered by organizations like Planned Parenthood. Genuine persuasion and substantive conversation are the keys to fostering societal change on this deeply contentious issue. This episode isn't just a glance at a headline; it's an invitation to engage with the profound ethical dimensions that touch our lives, our beliefs, and our wallets.
On today's episode, and I think far too many pro-life Christians have lost sight of that fact. They just want to knock off the one issue of people's behavior regarding abortion and they're neglecting the much more fundamental issues Like well, if we really care about people's lives and souls, shouldn't we be going more at the foundational level there of bringing them the gospel and converting them that way, because that's the only way that society is going to change, the way we want society to change.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life.
Christa Potratz:Challenges. Hi and welcome back. I'm Christa Potratz and I'm here today with pastors Bob Fleischmann and Jeff Samelson. Today we're going to talk about abortion and business. Maybe some of you are thinking, well, that's an interesting topic, or how does that kind of go together? Maybe, Jeff, can you start us off a little bit with what the correlation is there between abortion and business?
Jeff Samelson:Well, I guess there are two aspects to that. One is the extent to which abortion itself is a business, the providing of abortion, the promotion of abortion and all of that. Then the other side of it is the extent to which business generally is involved in advocacy for abortion, or, I suppose, on the pro-life side as well, just how those things variously interact and are connected, or not.
Christa Potratz:And why is this a topic that we should be talking about here on the podcast today?
Jeff Samelson:Well, it's something that I don't think gets enough attention today. Well, it's something that I don't think gets enough attention and a lot of people. Well, I mean, abortion is very much an issue politically, but I think there are a lot of people on both sides of the issue who don't really appreciate how much money is involved with it, and money is a motivator in many respects, and it's really good to understand that there are profit motives involved here that will drive people's behavior and sometimes their opinions and political activity as well.
Bob Fleischmann:And I agree with Jeff, money has always been part of this, from the early 70s They've talked about. There's groups that have formed. Pro-life groups have formed around the whole advocacy towards boycotting businesses that support abortion rights. Money just does have a way of corrupting. But the reality is almost any medical service has got money behind it. We talk about some of the services that are provided at different hospitals. So money, just as a very practical matter, is behind it. But when it starts becoming really big money, it changes and you see it happening in all the other arenas. Sports has been affected by a lot of money, other industries where there's a lot of money associated. Once you get a lot of money into it, people begin to. It just changes their logic stream, it seems.
Christa Potratz:You know, are companies, though that aren't directly connected to abortion, still affected by or connected to this abortion business.
Jeff Samelson:Absolutely, but I would say, or at least from our perspective, more than is economically necessary in any way.
Jeff Samelson:There are some companies and there are some pretty big, significant ones that really want to be known as progressive or maybe feminist-friendly or whatever the terminology might be, and so they've done things like after Dobbs, with abortions not being available in certain states or areas, they're offering to pay for their employees to travel to get the abortion, for the abortion itself and things like that, so that you know they're not just reimbursing for the procedure as though it were something any other medical procedure, but they're actually going out of their way to say we're going to do everything to make this possible for you. There are other companies that have tried to use their economic clout and influence politically to try to change abortion policies to what they are saying should be. And then there's also just this kind of what you might call virtue signaling going on by a lot of businesses that they're not actually doing much, but they're the ones making the statements and getting the word out and trying to be known as yeah, we're, we're on the right side of this and you should like us because of that.
Christa Potratz:When you were mentioning too about after the Dobbs case and how different places said, okay, we'd pay for out of state abortions for our employees. I remember, you know, hearing that and then kind of thinking like, all right, you know, maybe I shouldn't support some of these businesses or companies. And then I mean not to name names here. But then there was one company that was a very large company that definitely I did occasionally use and it was oh, I don't really even know what other option there'd be if I didn't use this company. And then I was a little bit perplexed as to what to do in that situation. Not to maybe necessarily get too on the if you should boycott, if you shouldn't type of train. But what would your suggestion be to somebody that is pro-life, that wants to just be educated in making decisions with different businesses?
Jeff Samelson:Well, bob has a lot more lifetime of experience with you know these various questions, so I'll let him do most of the answering on this question. But just being informed about this I think is very helpful. But recognize that it's really hard to be consistent on it and don't set yourself up with this idea of perfection that, okay, any business that is possibly involved in this in any way in the wrong way, I can't do business with them, because in some cases you can't avoid it. Some cases you're simply completely unaware of what the connection is and it really comes down to it's like okay, what's going to be my line in the sand, what's the standard that I'm going to be applying here? And recognize that simply doing business with someone doesn't necessarily say you agree with everything they stand for.
Bob Fleischmann:And I have been on all sides on this issue to some degree, maybe even tossed in the wind, because you become so incensed I mean you understand what abortion is you become so incensed that anybody would even consider abortion. And then you start realizing the guy that sells petroleum oil is somehow in an advocacy role. You know, either giving money, coming out with statements, makes a big deal about paying for it, and you're going I'm just interested in buying a tank of gas, you know and you get pulled and you get tugged this way and that way and I'm on a big kick right now. I've been doing a lot of research. I often wonder if this is still the devil's way of getting us off track. You know, a little bit of a distraction, kind of get you worried about this, get you worried about that, and that's kind of the evolving that I've gone through over the years is that initially I was very much involved. I think I even financially supported some of the organizations that were real big on boycotting, especially when I was in college and when I was getting near the end of my seminary years. I got involved with a committee and with this committee the issue came up about how they handled their investments for their pension fund, and, of course, do you know how complex that is? You start getting into mutual funds and so forth and all of a sudden it was maddening because you didn't quite know how it was done. Well then I began to start dissecting in my head all of the different issues. You know.
Bob Fleischmann:Part of the problem is, as a very just, dyed-in-the-wool pro-life person, I always evaluate things based upon my little world, and I always say when you run a nonprofit organization, it's like running your own business. Even when it's doing well, you see all the pitfalls and you never know if you're really doing well, all that kind of stuff. And so we tend to look at all business that way. And so when a large corporation, one of these mega corporations, comes out with some sort of decree, the reality is you've got your board of directors, you've got your management team, you've got your under people here and your under people there. I have found sometimes, when I have talked to people who've worked for large companies, they're oblivious that they've even said that or that they're doing that. In other words, certain individual people have used their position of authority to push their weight around. And of course, nowadays, if you're skilled at all in using social media. All you have to do is try to get your corporation out there on a radar and then you almost get pressured into taking a position.
Bob Fleischmann:And I personally am very sympathetic to large corporations where you're dealing with a melting pot of a workforce and you've got all of these different things. And that's why my biggest advocacy always is for crying out loud, stay in your lane. If your business is selling widgets, sell widgets. Don't be selling abortions. Let the abortion people take the controversy, let the pro-life people take the controversy. But I want to buy gasoline. I don't want to be, while I'm buying gasoline, paying for somebody's abortion. Stay in your lane. Now it does get complicated when you get into health insurance coverage and we're not going to ever get a. I don't think you're going to get a clean slate. I mean we do, you know, in the wells and our insurance plan, but but I mean we're, we're, you know, theologically and ideologically pretty clean, but it gets. It gets fuzzy when you're, you know, working for a larger corporation.
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, One of the things to remember about boycotting also is that maybe 30 years ago an organized boycott could make a big difference. Today it's much less likely that that's going to happen, unless you've got pretty small business that you're focusing on or something like that, and so I think in that sense I guess personally it's not so much. Okay, well, I've got this principle that I've got to stand by and we're going to all join together on this principle and we're going to change this company or whatever. For me it often just gets down to if I'm informed about what's going on, I will say you know what?
Jeff Samelson:Company X is one I don't want to give money to anymore. So I'm not going to buy Company X's stuff, unless maybe I'm traveling and I'm in town and Company X's stuff, unless maybe I'm traveling and I'm in town and Company X's store is the only one open and I need something. Then I'm not going to feel like I've broken some principle by going in there. I'm just going to say I did something I didn't particularly want to do. It's not abandoning principle, it's simply recognizing that taking a stand on principle there probably isn't that effective in the first place and just kind of knowing what your principles are and saying, okay, I'm not going to go against that. I think that satisfies most of the need there.
Bob Fleischmann:There's a thing called, I think it's like the action quotient or something like that, in which the idea is that you feel like you're doing something, so therefore it must be effective. And the reality is everybody feels they want to do something. But I drink a fair amount of Diet Mountain Dew, I guess but I remember somebody once saying no, I can't do that, you know, because the PepsiCo company sends money to Planned Parenthood and it so frustrated me. I said well, my goal is to drink so much of this. They're going to look at me and say we're going to put that guy on the board of directors and then I can actually influence a change Because even though I think I drink probably too much, I might do. Chances are pretty good. If I stop drinking it tomorrow, they won't even notice at the front office. And I know we have these imaginations, these dreams, like kind of what Jeff's alluding to oh, maybe I get all my friends to do it and everything like that.
Bob Fleischmann:You got to realize that you're dealing with massive amounts of commerce going on, and so three vendors that sell widgets and one of the widget companies decided to come out with this dramatic stand in favor of abortion rights. Okay, for me the way I kind of approach it is. Well, now I'm going to start paying more attention to the other people who sell widgets. But what if they're horrible? I mean, what if the widget is a watch it? You know it doesn't work. It doesn't work, right, you know. So you do and I do If there are other alternatives. People say, well, diet, mountain Dew, can't you buy the store brand or something like that? Well, I don't know what it tastes like to you, but it doesn't taste like Diet.
Bob Fleischmann:Mountain Dew to me. But the point is that the difficulty that I began to have as I got older with boycotting is what is my prime directive? And I want to protect life. I desperately want to protect life, and we continue to support and get involved with efforts to protect life. But my prime directive is to share the gospel. And so if boycotting provides a means for me to have a bridge to share the gospel, and so if boycotting provides a means for me to have a bridge to share the gospel, then I'm going to boycott. But if all it's going to do is create a wall and separate the people who need the internal change to start doing the right thing, then maybe boycott isn't the right thing to do.
Bob Fleischmann:But we do tend to stay away from people who are wrong on these things. I do it too. I mean, it's hard to warm up to somebody who says I think it's all right for a woman to take the life of her unborn child. But the problem is and I'm going to the most valuable quote Jeff ever gave in one of these things is you know, we want to stand for what's right, but we never want to do it if it hurts, you know, and I think that that's a brilliant insight to what's going on. You know, but you've got to do it in a way that never allows you to lose your prime directive to share the gospel.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, no, I think that's so true and kind of hearing you talk too, jeff, you mentioned too at the beginning that there's two different types. When we're talking about business, we're talking about businesses that support abortion, but then we're also talking about businesses where abortion is the business and it is the business model.
Jeff Samelson:Can we kind of pull that out a little bit more too? What is the largest provider of abortions and services in the United States is a nonprofit organization, as though that means there's no money involved. But just because the organization is nonprofit doesn't mean that the people who are in the organization aren't in it for profit. People get paid salaries. People who've come out of that business have documented how they get bonuses based on how many abortions their center performs in a month or a year or whatever. It is something they make money on and they are trying to promote it and it's been that way even before the Roe v Wade decision.
Jeff Samelson:There's a good book by Marvin Olasky and Leah Savas called the Story of Abortion in America. I read last year and it talks about how in New York City I think this was around 1900, 1910, maybe, maybe it was a little earlier than that there was a famous woman abortionist. It was illegal, but she was one of the wealthiest people. She was a mover and shaker in society or whatever, because everyone just kind of recognized well, this is a service that somebody needs to perform and she paid off enough of the right people, you know, and the police and the whatever offices or whatever, and she was making money off of it. Of course, one of the ironies there is that some people on the pro-abortion side will criticize pro-life pregnancy clinics and such saying. Oh well, they're just trying to take advantage of desperate women, and if anyone's taking advantage of desperate women, it's those who provide abortion and are trying to get their money in order to do so abortion and are trying to get their money in order to do so.
Bob Fleischmann:During more conservative administrations, there were anti-funding campaigns against Planned Parenthood and so forth, and it was interesting reading the articles because they would make claims like well, none of this money is used for abortions, we use that for other services. Well, as a guy who runs a nonprofit, I will tell you that you just shift things around. In other words, you create your business model and even Christian nonprofits have a business model what you're trying to accomplish and the kind of resources you can put towards it. Now, if you have a blip in those resources, where support is down, you come back and you re-evaluate and you say well, how valuable is this Now? Good examples in the state of Wisconsin, you know, when the Dobbs ruling came down, planned Parenthood stopped abortions. Okay, but the reality is they didn't change their business model. They decided we're going to keep harping on this, keep working on this, keep harping on it, keep working on it. And that's what they did. They went into more of an advocacy position and now they've opened up their abortion clinics.
Bob Fleischmann:The point is, is that anybody who says that it fits my business model to provide this service and I don't care. If you're saying so, I can make a lot of money or I can help women. Either way, your business model dictates the way you're going and if the business model includes providing the service that terminates a life, you're going to have ethical issues elsewhere. A willingness to take the most defenseless of life means you're going to have problems elsewhere. Lists of life means you're going to have problems elsewhere.
Bob Fleischmann:So I think people who you know unless you get some of these you know and there's a number in the pro-life movement people who have run abortion clinics. The first one, back when I first got involved, was Bernard Nathanson. I mean he came out and he said that he had overseen between 50 and 70,000 abortions. He was involved with Lawrence Slater and others in the very early activist years of the late 60s, early 70s to legalize abortion. And then all of a sudden he kind of comes to this realization of what I've done. There are people and there are people like that now in the pro-life movement, but generally compared to the number involved in the abortion movement, there aren't many. So in other words, you've got a model that says we need to provide this.
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, like with so many issues that Christians are concerned about, it's just everyone wants to find the trick that'll work. This is the thing that we can do so that we don't actually have to do the super hard work of persuading people, because that, ultimately, is what needs to happen. We need to persuade Americans generally that abortion is a horrible moral crime. We need to persuade pregnant women that this is not an answer to the challenge of your particular situation. We need to persuade people in government that, no, the laws should be this way and not that way. But instead we say, well, that's not working so well or that's going to be a lot of work, so let's try this other thing. We're going to get this law passed, we're going to boycott this company or whatever, and you may see short-term benefits from it, but long-term, it's not the tactic.
Christa Potratz:So, as Christians, then, what kind of what should we do and what maybe like biblical principles or things should we think about when we're thinking about all of this too?
Bob Fleischmann:Well, I like there is a big crisis going on in the church in Asia Minor, ephesus and so forth, and Paul writes to Timothy and you know he says you know, you got to realize people aren't going to put up a sound doctrine, they're going to, you know, go after things that they're itching ears on. And then he says but you stay sober. That literally the Greek word is for sober, but it's translated, I think, in NIV Keep your head, you know, really, in other words, and then do the work of an evangelist. The problem, when I was young and there would be a crisis of whatever crisis coming up controversy in school, high school and just so everybody knows, I was all public school until I went into college, but there'd be different controversies coming up and you would try to talk to somebody and nothing was more aggravating than somebody who would just say quote a Bible passage. I want an activist, I want someone to shake the system up, I want someone to rattle the cage. And you quote a Bible passage and that's basically what Paul told Timothy is. He said stay the course. And that's basically what Paul told Timothy is he said stay the course.
Bob Fleischmann:And Christians are becoming noticed in society for what they're against, and the problem with that is, I don't think that that's what Peter had in mind when he wrote revere Christ in your heart, always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you the reason for the hope that you have, and do it with gentleness and respect that. When people look at Christians they don't see hope, they see controversy, they see adversarial and the growth of the early Christian church had Christians risking their lives, sacrificing themselves to care for not only their own children and those with physical disabilities and so forth, but also the empires want the children that were left in the woods to die. The thing is that Christians have stopped looking curiously unusual. They just look unusual. There's a difference. A curious unusual means there's something about you. You've weathered the storm. How did you do it? And you could be as ideologically separated as you possibly can. Just please, please, please, avoid that horrible rhetoric we're seeing today. I find no justification for it in Scripture. You can't build a bridge by doing that.
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, there's a I'll mention another good book of history I believe I'm getting the title right how Christianity Changed the World, by Alvin Schmidt, and it's just a catalog of all the things that we take for granted in modern society. That came about because Christians acted as Christians and again, as Bob was mentioning, it started from the position of absolute tiny minority in the linked to Christian activity. Just amazing things like that.
Jeff Samelson:But just related to that I remember back not too long after 9-11, people were sometimes asking can you pray for someone like Osama bin Laden, or should you just pray for his death? You read the imprecatory Psalms. I wouldn't say that praying for an enemy's demise is necessarily a wrong thing, but I said what's an even better solution Pray for the conversion of these enemies.
Bob Fleischmann:Pray for thy kingdom come?
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, because if someone like Osama bin Laden were somehow to become a Christian, he's going to stop doing all the bad things he's doing. A Christian, he's going to stop doing all the bad things he's doing. And that sounds like I'm way off on a tangent there, but the point is that what is the best way to get someone behaving the way we, as Christians, want them to behave? The gospel, if they come to faith in Christ and then they come to live as Christians, that's win, win, win, win everywhere. And I think far too many pro-life Christians have lost sight of that fact. They just want to knock off the one issue of people's behavior regarding abortion and they're neglecting the much more fundamental issues like well, if we really care about people's lives and souls, shouldn't we be going more at the foundational level there of bringing them the gospel and converting them that way, Because that's the only way that society is going to change, the way we want society to change.
Bob Fleischmann:Common mantra I hear when I'm presenting on this or in correspondence I get is I just can't see how they could do that. I can't see how you know a business could capitalize on abortion. I can't see how they could be supportive. I can't see how somebody could do that. I think that those statements start from the wrong position. You know and ask yourself instead and this follows up with what Jeff was saying ask yourself why is it you don't, why is it you would never do that? Why is it? Is it just because you just really had some wonderful parents? Or maybe is it a little bit more? The point is is that we're mad at the world because they're not like us, but we're not given a whole lot of thought of how we became like us. And I think if you begin to think about how you became like you, it might give you a clue as to how you can best touch them yeah, I'd say another.
Jeff Samelson:Another side to that is just, if you really have trouble understanding, how can they do that? Maybe part of the problem you have also is just that you don't spend enough time understanding, thinking about confronting your own sin. Because when you spend enough time appreciating your sinful nature, where you would be without Christ in your life, the things that you still do even though you have Christ in your life well, then you begin to understand like, well, yeah, if I didn't have the Holy Spirit active in me, yeah, I would be doing those things too and I wouldn't see anything wrong with it. And once you begin to appreciate that, you begin to realize that these things that seem just so way out there evil, they're not that far out there. That's human nature.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah, I've sometimes wondered if the reason evil stands out so clearly is because it looks so familiar.
Christa Potratz:Well, there's a lot of great stuff to talk about here, and I think there'd be a lot more, and so thank you both for bringing us this topic, this information, today, and we want to thank all of our listeners too, and if you have any questions on this topic or any others, please reach out to us at lifechallengesus. We'll see you back next time. Thanks a lot.
Paul Snamiska:Bye, thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit christianliferesourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.