The Life Challenges Podcast
Modern-day issues from a Biblical perspective.
The Life Challenges Podcast
Will Robots Replace the Children We Are Not Having? A Conversation With Thomas Frey
What if robots could fundamentally change our daily lives by 2040? Join us as we explore this and more with futurist Thomas Frey on this riveting episode of Life Challenges. Join us as we speculate on the astonishing advancements expected in the coming decades and how rapid technological innovations like AI, driverless cars, and designer babies are reshaping our world.
We then shift our focus to a critical demographic issue: the declining birth rates in South Korea and other developed nations. Despite substantial financial incentives, these countries struggle to boost their birth rates, and cultural factors play a significant role. We discuss the broader global trend of aging populations and analyze potential solutions that involve not just policy changes but also cultural shifts and the integration of advanced technology like AI and robotics.
Looking ahead, we delve into the fascinating future of humanoid robots and their potential societal impacts. Imagine a world where robots handle household chores, provide emotional support, and even become part of our families. Thomas Frey provides thought-provoking insights on the ethical and social implications of such a future, including job displacement and the necessity of human oversight. As we wrap up, we underscore the importance of adapting to these changes to stay relevant in an increasingly automated world. Tune in for a comprehensive look at how these futuristic trends could shape our decisions today and tomorrow.
SHOW NOTES:
Thomas Frey's website: https://futuristspeaker.com/
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on today's episode.
Thomas Frey:So I have to remind people that the cars that we drive today have been in development for over 120 years, so it's taken that long to get to cars that are this good. So the robots that we see coming out today we're in the very crude stages. We're in the Egyptian sundial stage of development on these robots. So something that comes out today by 2040, 2050, is going to look much more human-like, much more capable, have much better conversations with. These things will carry on lots of the tasks that we did as humans.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz:Hi and welcome back. I'm Krista Potratz, here with Pastor Bob Fleischman, and today we have a special guest with us. We have Tom Fry and, as some of our listeners might recall, we have had him before on the podcast. I was thinking back. I think it was three years ago that we had you on the podcast.
Paul Snamiska:Oh, it was three years ago, okay.
Christa Potratz:Yep, yep, you spoke at the Christian Life Resources National Convention and then I met with you at the convention and talked to you for a little bit there, and that was right when we were starting the podcast and so I think you were maybe even our first guest. I'd love to start by you just telling us a little bit about yourself for people that don't know. And you are a futurist, and so I'm sure there's a lot of people that maybe don't know what that is too.
Thomas Frey:So I work as a futurist and I get that question a lot what is a futurist? So let me explain how I justify the work that I do. I think of a futurist as just expanding people's understanding about what the future holds. But we're a very backward-looking society. We're backward-looking because we've all personally experienced the past. We look around us, we see evidence of the past all around us. In fact, all information we come into contact with is essentially history. So the past is very knowable, and yet we're going to be spending the rest of our lives in the future. So it's almost as if we're walking backwards into the future.
Thomas Frey:My job as a futurist is to help turn people around, to give them some idea of what the future might hold. So when you ask the question, how does the future get created? Well, the future gets created in the minds of everybody around us. We all participate in creating the future, but I use this phrase quite a bit the future creates the present. This is just the opposite of what most people think. Most people think that what we're doing today is going to create the future, but from a little different perspective. These images of the future that we hold in our minds determine our actions today. So here's the key thing If I change somebody's vision of the future, I change the way they make decisions today, and that's how I justify everything that I do.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah that's a great explanation.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, yeah, you know, and I was going to kind of ask too today we are going to be talking about population and robots and that type of thing. I was thinking about three years ago too, and I think you know the things we were talking about then were the driverless cars, and we also maybe like what was it like the super humans or the super babies?
Thomas Frey:Oh, yeah, designer babies.
Christa Potratz:Designer babies yes, where you have to be super kids and super babies, oh yeah, designer babies.
Thomas Frey:Designer babies yes, or you have to be super kids and super humans.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, and just you know the changes maybe in the last three years and so much focus on AI and just different things. And so when you're talking about how we're shaping the present, I mean it's just interesting to think like what we were talking about three years ago and what maybe the focus is now.
Thomas Frey:Yeah, three years ago is ancient history. That was a long time ago.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, you know I often say that one of the problems I have. I teach a course in biotechnology and I refuse to have a formal textbook because it's obsolete that it shows up in your mailbox. Everything's changing very quickly.
Christa Potratz:Well, one of the things we want to talk about is robots and this idea of maybe robots replacing the population, and so I want to kind of maybe start by talking about the population too, and just what we're kind of noticing with that.
Thomas Frey:Well, recently I was asked to give a talk on a super low birth rate in Korea, and this is a big event the Asian Leadership Conference over there and it started off with the president of Korea talking about how Korea has the lowest birth rate of any country in the world and they're going to dedicate a lot of money into trying to turn this around, because by 2040, every person that's working will have to support three retired people. And this is when systems start breaking, start collapsing, falling apart. Now Korea is similar to Japan in that they don't really want to go into immigration because they want to keep the culture pure, the race pure, sort of pure anyway. And then when you talk to the young girls over there, they don't even think about having kids because that's just, uh, they don't. Well, one thing is they don't like marrying Korean men because it's such a male, male dominated culture over there. So, anyway, the child rate has just plummeted child birth rate and so spent a lot of time trying to figure out, okay, how do we turn this around?
Thomas Frey:And they've been doing a lot of giveaway programs. I mean, just, if you have kids, we'll give you this amount of money, and if you have more kids, you'll have a lot more money, and then, if you have three kids or more'll have a lot more money. And then, if you have three kids or more, we'll give you a minivan. That's a pretty good incentive, but it really hasn't changed the birth rate at all, and so they haven't raised the needle one bit. I have some ideas on how to go about doing that, but they're all pretty unproven. I think it has a lot to do with status in the community and that your status in the community depends on how many kids you have, and right now your status goes up if you have fewer kids. I think it could be turned around your status would go up if you had more kids, but that's going to take quite a bit of cultural shifting over there to make that happen.
Bob Fleischmann:Tom, you and I have talked many times. Just so everybody knows, tom and I have been friends for 30 years or so now. Yeah, at least Tom was very instrumental in helping me get New Beginnings. The home for mothers started in Colorado before we moved it over to Wisconsin. When you talk about changing culture, I think you and I have had conversations where it takes— there's kind of like a—I always remember you telling me that it took like a generation to adopt new technology. When it came to like cell phones and things like that. Cultural change I mean it has ramifications on a theological level. Even Cultural change is like a monumental task. I mean it's just like generations.
Thomas Frey:Right, right, yeah, it does take a long time, although that timeframe is shifting quickly, though. With AI, it just seemed like everybody gravitated to AI almost instantly because it made things so much easier. Yeah, I'm finding unique and different ways of using it almost every day, so a great way to use it is you can write your grandkids a personalized bedtime story every night, every night. So you want a story about your grandchild fighting trolls up in the forest. You can do that, and then you can ask it to create a picture for that story, and you can do that too. And voila, you have a bedtime story just ready to go.
Christa Potratz:It's very personal. Some of these things too, like we're talking with south korea and everything real interesting, um, with the birth rate and I I mean that really is maybe a problem in a lot of developed countries. Right, we're kind of seeing that well uh.
Thomas Frey:Japan's birth rate has started declining before Korea's did. Japan now has the problem of having 9 million empty houses. These houses are all in rural communities outside of the big metro areas. It's a supply and demand equation. There's no demand for these houses out there, so they're just set empty. If you want to buy a cheap house, you can buy one in Japan right now. You have to get there, though. I mean you have to, yeah.
Thomas Frey:So around the world, the whole African continent is still having kids. They're a positive birth rate. You need 2.1 kids per female on average to maintain an even population. Africa is above that. There's two other countries, pakistan and Bolivia, but there may be some other outliers out there, but for the most part, the world in general has stopped having kids.
Thomas Frey:Now we're getting tons of messaging every day. We have climate change going on. The world can't support this many people on planet Earth, and so we've got to have fewer kids. We hear that again and again and again, and it comes in all kinds of other forms too.
Thomas Frey:So there's a preponderance of people out there thinking that we'd just be way better off if our planet would be better off having fewer kids. The environment would be better, our system would be better, our cities would be better, but they have no clue what it would be like going through this declining birth rate when suddenly your house that you're living in, the value of your house starts plummeting to a tenth of what you spent on buying it a tenth of what you spent on buying it. They have no idea what it's like going through just this collapsing supply and demand equation, because that can happen very quickly and then just dealing with an aging population where we have medical advances, where we live longer. I mean, if we suddenly retire at 65 and then live another 120 years, none of our systems work. So we have lots of systems. We currently have a lot of systems in crisis mode already and we'll have even more when that happens.
Bob Fleischmann:So where do you think robots are going to fit into this, because there have been some remarkable changes.
Christa Potratz:Well, and I kind of just too wonder like what you even think of like is a robot? I mean before this, like we were talking about the Jetsons, and what was it, rosie? The maid and stuff. To me, like that's like what I still think of when I think of robot, like I think of something that looks like a human moving around and stuff, but I don't even really think that's what robot really is.
Thomas Frey:I don't know yeah, most of them will be dog robots. No, I'm just kidding.
Bob Fleischmann:I was like wow, that's fascinating. We do have a lot of dog robots.
Thomas Frey:You know it brings up a lot of questions of why a dog, why not?
Christa Potratz:a cat.
Thomas Frey:Why not a giraffe? Why not a cow?
Christa Potratz:But I think there's so many robots that just don't even look human.
Thomas Frey:Right. So the transition is happening quickly, in that we're seeing major advances in humanoid robots to kind of act and touch and feel the way humans do. And so, if you ask the question, by 2040, how many households will own their own robot, their own humanoid robot? I think the number is going to be pretty substantial. It may only be 10 or 20% at that time, but that's a sizable number. And then we're going to start hearing from people oh you know, I could just have a robot. I don't really need a kid. Kids are a lot of work. They're just a lot of work every way you look at it. So I think I'd rather have a robot than a kid. I don't want to have to wake up at night with feeding this baby. And then it becomes a logical question of do the robots actually replace the kids that we're not having? See your question, though, about what is a robot. There's lots of your question, though, about what is a robot. There's lots of ways of answering that.
Thomas Frey:In the past, we had robots that were as minimal as just an arm on a conveyor belt that would slide things to the side. We had lots of automated things like that. People considered those robots, but we'll ask this. We'll continue to ask this question in the future. If we build a closet that has a recommendation engine in it that pulls out clothes for you that it thinks you should wear that day, is that a robotic closet? If you stand in front of a mirror and it kind of tells you what makeup you should put on that day or how you should fix your hair, is that a robotic mirror?
Thomas Frey:If we have cars that drive us where we want to go, is that a robotic car? And so the word robot's kind of a general term that could be used for a lot of different things. But I'm thinking here in terms of this humanoid robot and think of a five-year-old kid growing up, having his own personal little robot that goes around, that's his little personal buddy, and they go out and play on the playground together, have lots of conversations, and so then you only need one kid, you don't need two, because these two get along really well and the robot gets along way better than another human would with that kid.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, and first of all, let me just pause right there and just say there's a side of me that's going okay. This is just getting really bizarre. How can this really be? But if you're aware of what's going on out there, all of these components take place. Japan has been working on facial features that allow it to grimace and smile and everything so that it looks human. That could be done over a robotic head, and then they've got sensors put in the robot so that they can react. They've got robots that run and jump and maintain their balance better than humans do. Now, if you take that and you start combining everything, I did a thing for my board, the board of directors, where I talked about and we did an episode on it where we talked about all these different crazy components come together and you could actually have kind of like Star Trek's next generation data, the android. That's not inconceivable anymore and there's all sorts of there's comfort animals that are robotic for the elderly. So it's those will get much better.
Thomas Frey:So I have to remind people that the cars that we drive today have been in development for over 120 years, so it's taken that long to get to cars that are this good. So the robots that we see coming out today, we're in the very crude stages. We're in the Egyptian sundial stage of development on these robots. It's going to look much more human-like, much more capable, have much better conversations with. These things will carry on lots of the tasks that we did as humans. So, if you, let me ask you some questions. If you have a robot that can cook your meals for you, are you still going to go out for dinner, or would you be more inclined to invite people over and have dinner with company and have your robot serve them? If you had a robot that was able to wash all your dishes for you, do you still need to buy a dishwasher? The one question I always keep coming back to is at what stage will the robot comedian be funnier than a human comedian?
Christa Potratz:They might already be funnier. Yeah, some of them. Yeah, yeah.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah Well you know, tom, when you were talking about a child talking with its robot companion. You know right now, you know AI is that far along that. It's come up numerous times in Christian blogs and so forth that AI is being used now for grief. When you're grieving somebody, you can talk to this AI and it becomes a friend and it becomes sympathetic. And then there's concerns about creating an emotional attachment. When you were describing a child talking with its robotic friend, can you imagine when it's time to replace that robotic friend with an older robotic friend to match the child growing up? There's going to be drama, like a death in the family.
Thomas Frey:Right right. Will you actually replace it or you just change out parts till it works better? Upgrade Keeps the same head.
Christa Potratz:Well, I think you know too, and we talk about the jobs of robots, okay, like washing the dishes or doing things. I mean that all sounds really great to me and everything, but what are maybe, like, the limitations of robots? Like what are robots not going to be able to do?
Thomas Frey:Well, if you spend all your time with a robot, buddy, do you actually become more lonely or less lonely in the world? A robot will not buy a house. A robot will not go out and start a store on Main Street to fill in the empty storefronts on Main Street. Although there might be robot stores, you can go in and buy different robots, but yeah, so robots typically won't have their own bank accounts. Yeah, I was asking that question. A different conversation about should a robot have its own bank account, Because you send the robot off to the grocery store to buy groceries for you. Should it have its own bank account so somebody doesn't hack into your bank account? Do you want to separate it that way?
Bob Fleischmann:Well, you know, and one of the issues that have risen as far as a limitation is, they keep talking about the refinement of AI and the ability of AI to be self-learning, but one of the things that they have found is that it quickly multiplies error. In other words, if AI were to learn incorrectly, that would be a problem. And, of course, part of the problem is that it's like most things in the area of ethics or bioethics is that the progress is outpacing our ability to mentally process it. You know, like we're not even quite sure how humans make all their judgments that they make, and yet we're kind of turning over that to AI in some places.
Thomas Frey:Right, I've actually gotten into quite a few arguments with AI and it will apologize and give me a different point of view and it seems that I'm violently disagreeing with it.
Bob Fleischmann:And you know, AI is, like many things in the world, incredible blessing until you start abusing it.
Paul Snamiska:Yeah.
Bob Fleischmann:And because of our sinful inclination, we get to the point to start abusing. You know it just happens with everything. You know, a car is wonderful, car is wonderful. I have to run and get a prescription. I just hop in the car and 20 minutes I'm back home. It's great with a car. If I had to saddle up the horse and pull the wagon and everything. We're talking a day trip. You appreciate it, but then you start getting reckless with the car. You're not paying attention, you run over someone, you hit a wall, whatever. Many things can be abused. And the problem is that I mean, I love technology, I love the potential of all those advancements, but I'm scared to death of how it can go bad, how it can go wrong.
Thomas Frey:Well see, robots don't have any needs. The only needs that a robot has is to have a repair person be able to repair the robot. And then also, I like to think they need a robot polisher, somebody that can polish the robot, but that's about all. They don't need food, they don't need to buy anything at a grocery store, they don't even need oxygen, they don't need water supply. What does a robot really need? And the fact that we all are very needy people. That's what creates our economy, and so, without any needs, then the economy dries up and starts falling apart.
Bob Fleischmann:Isn't the concern that if we create a robot to cater to my needs and my needs are nefarious, you know, I want your car, I want your TV, I want your riches, you riches? Where you then use your robot wrongly I mean as close to a robot as I get around here is we have a little robotic vacuum we call Rosie. It's hard for me to abuse Rosie. I mean it isn't like I'll teach you. You go over and vacuum the neighbor's house for me and I'll teach them. It isn't like I'll teach you. You go over and vacuum the neighbor's house for me and I'll teach them, but it doesn't happen. But you can see, or maybe not see, as much as people raise the prospect that they could be programmed and used for wrong purposes.
Thomas Frey:Invariably we're going to have nefarious people who use things wrong. There will be people who use robots to figure out how to rob banks and how to steal things from people. That starts getting pretty crazy. And then where things get really squirrely is that when we start growing human flesh onto robots, then this becomes a version of robots called flesh bots. That's where all the rules start changing.
Thomas Frey:Is the goal to have a robot, then that looks human where we won't maybe be able to tell the difference or that type of thing, Maybe be able to tell the difference or that type of thing. Yeah, For some people it'll always be kind of. We're always looking for the ultimate form of something. I always say that there's three things in life where the human body comes in contact with the natural world in the most ways, and that's the beds that we sleep in, the chairs that we sit in and the shoes that we walk in. And it always seems to me that we're on this never-ending quest to get the ultimate form of beds and shoes and chairs to make our lives easier.
Thomas Frey:So it seems like the robots will be on this never-ending quest to create a robot that has additional capabilities that nobody ever thought of before. So can we build a video projector into this robot so it can just walk around and project images on walls and ceilings and stuff? Can we have a robot that creates fog in a room so we have every? Maybe it would be on a rock and roll stage or something like that. We'd have a fog robot running around creating fog. Yeah, that's probably a really stupid example, but yeah, you can start imagining Sounds fun.
Thomas Frey:You can start imagining what they would do with all these robots.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah Well, and getting to kind of the topic, and that is that robotic assistance to replace our children. Probably at the core of that issue is more of the ethical question is how do we view children? You know what is the role of children in our lives, and how does a void that children would fill be replaced by what a robot would fill? And actually the most realistic thing you said that alarms me is the child with the robotic friend. I can definitely see that because you know, first of all, children are competitive, and they're not only competitive, they can be selfish.
Bob Fleischmann:You know, so that's my robotic friend, what You're going to have another child, but that's my friend. I'm not going to share it with a brother or sister. They get their own friend. Well, in other words, you get a lot of that. So you have your one child, so that hopefully it's someone that can help care for you as you get older, if that's the void you're looking for. But then would a robot be able to do that for you, and will it do it well or right, or can you have, as you get older, you go into a home that has a lot of robots and maybe one human to every 50 patients because you've got all this robotic assistance.
Thomas Frey:Yeah.
Bob Fleischmann:Then you don't need your children.
Thomas Frey:Well, there's going to be a lot of things that robots can do better than humans. They'll probably be better at fixing things and doing maintenance.
Bob Fleischmann:Repetition things. I think they would be.
Thomas Frey:Industrial things like mining and spray painting cars, and things like mining and spray painting cars and things like that that are just these are things that humans don't like to do anyway. Things in super cold environments. We send them down to Antarctica to do research, help people doing research down there, and then certainly somebody's going to figure out how to create a robot army. That goes without saying. They probably have got a lot of people working on that right now. So robots are going to be employed in virtually every way we can think of, and probably 200 more that we haven't thought of.
Bob Fleischmann:You know a lot of people who've contacted me on the future of things and where they're going. They'll ask the question. You know we should stay away from this. We shouldn't avoid it. I just don't think that that's an option. I think, rather, we need to create a framework within which we function with them, because to some degree we've got it already.
Bob Fleischmann:I have a routine here that this morning, before we recorded this podcast, I was getting breakfast going and so forth, and so I tell my little home speaker to set an alarm, tell me when a certain thing is up, when the alarm goes off, when I have to pull the food out of the oven. I have other automated things. I was in a video conference with someone that there's a lot of automation assigned there. We embrace a lot of automation. You sit in your car and you have a lot of automation and so we tend to use it.
Bob Fleischmann:And you know, I think it's important to harness things and to find the good in it, fully aware of the fact that people will use it to do bad. And you know, I know in this podcast we focus a lot on kind of the ethical end of how these things work and we spend so much time. I see a lot of papers written that come across my desk where, you know, people are making a big argument that we should stay far away from it. We should do it, but I don't think you have that choice. I think it's around you and if you aren't a player, you're going to be in trouble, I think.
Thomas Frey:Yeah, Invariably we will have people that justify having fewer kids or no kids just because they can have robot kids. I think that the arguments that they come up with surrounding that are ones that we'll have to learn how to debate that thinking on a lot of different levels. It's entirely possible that you get to a point where the population dwindles down to virtually nothing.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, and we're old enough. We were raised in the 70s when they came out with the big population explosion book.
Christa Potratz:Not all of us. Not all of us. I keep forgetting. Yeah, there is a child among us.
Bob Fleischmann:But I mean, you know, in that time, you know there was a big deal about the population explosion. You know that really is a myth and people are. You know we've talked about population on this podcast. I've got a robotic vacuum that doesn't replace a kid for me. I've got a robotic vacuum that doesn't replace a kid for me. It barely replaces anyone doing the vacuuming for me because it still doesn't do as good of a job as I wish. I think when we look at the threats that we feel from them, we've got to first of all evaluate why do we feel it's a threat and how can we be a positive force to counter the threat. And so you know, like children, I like children, I like a lot of children. I mean, are children a headache? You bet they can be a headache. Can they be a problem? You bet they can be a problem, you know, and so can robots you know.
Bob Fleischmann:But the thing is is that, you know, from a biblical perspective, we were commanded to have children, you know, be fruitful and multiply Commanded, it's a blessing. I mean, we were commanded to have children, you know, be fruitful and multiply Commanded, it's a blessing. I mean, we're allowed to do it. When Tom talks about the day coming where you shrink that population, how do you hold dominion over the earth when you're doing it with less people? Now, you might in your imagination, you know, say we can do it robotically, we can do it with AI and so forth, but really it has its natural limitations. It doesn't have a lot of the inherent needs of humans, like you said, you know food and stuff like that, but it still has its limitations. And you know, human beings seem to be the ones that drive it. I mean, think about it, human beings are the ones who create the robots.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, ones that drive it. I mean, think about it Human beings are the ones who create the robots Right?
Thomas Frey:Is there anything else we should mention on robots or anything to maybe kind of end with that we'd like to just bring up? I love the robots. I love the idea that they can come along with me and help me with all kinds of things. It's something that I visualize, giving us additional capabilities so we can accomplish so much more in a day than we ever could in the past. So a lot of these technologies are amplifying our capabilities. A lot of these technologies are amplifying our capabilities. So, if you think of by 2050 as an example, each of us could accomplish 20, maybe 50 times as much as the average person today, and so the idea that all our jobs are going to go away is a total fallacy, because we will be creating so many more businesses, so many more jobs, just because of this additional capability. That's not realistic that those jobs will go away. I think we'll end up with more jobs than we know what to do with.
Bob Fleischmann:That's what I think, but they'll be different.
Thomas Frey:They'll be different, much different, and any college degree that you get today will be outdated and won't apply.
Christa Potratz:Well, that's a depressing thought. Thank you so much for this. It's always very interesting talking to you because it's such a different perspective on things.
Thomas Frey:Yeah Well, it's an amazing world and we're entering times that's kind of uncharted territory.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah, more so now than ever.
Christa Potratz:Well, thank you both and we thank all of our listeners, and if you have any questions on this topic, you can reach out to Bob, he'll answer them all.
Bob Fleischmann:Oh yeah, sure, Because I know how to get a hold of Tom. Yeah, so christianliferesourcescom, and we'll also provide a link to Tom's website too.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Fleischmann:You can go right to him.
Christa Potratz:Well, have a good one, and we'll see you back next time. Bye.
Paul Snamiska:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit christianliferesourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.
