The Life Challenges Podcast
The Life Challenges Podcast
Fractured Family: Surviving Abuse
When Michelle Markgraf worked as the executive director of the Compass Center, a rape and domestic abuse center in South Dakota, she encountered survivors from all walks of life—including many Christians who felt deeply alone in their suffering. In this powerful conversation, she dismantles the myth that abuse doesn't happen in faith communities and provides crucial insights for recognizing, understanding, and responding to abuse.
Markgraf defines abuse through two essential components: it's a pattern of controlling behaviors, not isolated incidents. While physical abuse might be the most visible, she explains why emotional and spiritual abuse often cause deeper, longer-lasting damage. For Christians, spiritual abuse—where Scripture is twisted to maintain control—represents a particularly devastating form of manipulation that can damage not only relationships but also one's relationship with God.
The statistics are sobering: approximately 40% of women and 25% of men experience physically abusive relationships during their lifetime, regardless of their faith background. For those supporting loved ones in abusive situations, Markgraf offers counter-intuitive but crucial advice: first, believe them unconditionally; second, resist the urge to immediately tell them to leave. Understanding that victims leave and return to abusers an average of seven times before leaving permanently helps supporters maintain consistent, judgment-free presence.
Churches can make a profound difference by openly acknowledging abuse, training advocates within congregations, and making resources visible. For survivors, Markgraf offers a powerful connection to faith: Jesus himself experienced profound abuse without cause and deeply understands their suffering.
Whether you're currently in an abusive relationship, support someone who might be, or simply want to better understand this important issue, this episode provides compassionate insight and practical wisdom for addressing abuse in Christian communities.
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Definitely the physical signs are the easiest. Other things that could be signs that there's abuse happening could be low self-esteem Somebody's always putting themselves down Could be difficulty in controlling their own emotions. Maybe they get angry super easy or they have outbursts or demanding behaviors. That could be a sign of abuse and something we see quite often, because abuse is controlling somebody else is we see somebody that has poor boundaries.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz:Hello and welcome back. I'm Krista Potratz, and I'm here today with Pastor Jeff Samuelson, and today we have a special guest with us, michelle Markgraf, and we are going to talk about a subject that we have never talked about really before on the podcast at least not in a whole podcast episode before and that is about abuse. But first, I would just love it if you would introduce yourself, michelle, to us and tell us a little bit about your background.
Michelle Markgraf:Sure, thanks for having me and for talking about a really important and tough-to-talk-about subject. I'm Michelle Markgraf. I'm a graduate of Dr Martin Luther College in New Ulm, minnesota, and after graduating I taught in Wells Wisconsin Synod classrooms for seven years, took some time out to be with our sons as they grew up and then, when I got back into work again after the kids were older, I worked more with administrative and nonprofits and that eventually led me to be the executive director of a place called the Compass Center in Sioux Falls, south Dakota, and the Compass Center is a rape and domestic abuse center where we worked with all kinds of victims, from ages three on up, of both sexual assault and domestic abuse, men and women, children. Just a lot of different people came through our doors and I got to work there for over four years until my husband took a call to New Ulm, minnesota, and had to leave there, kind of kicking and screaming because I really enjoyed the work. It sounds weird screaming because I really enjoyed the work.
Michelle Markgraf:It sounds weird, but I really loved the work that we were doing helping survivors of abuse, came to New Ulm and worked for Kingdom Workers for a year or two years and helped them to put together a program to help churches work with domestic abuse, because oftentimes what I found is the faith community doesn't understand how to best work with the survivor of abuse, and so I worked with them to put together a program to help provide training to churches so not just the leadership but people in the church could help with survivors and to provide the advocacy that survivors need. Now I am at actually Martin Luther College. I went from graduation to now I'm alumni director here and enjoying the work that I do here. I also get to help with students and provide some education to the students here about especially dating violence, because that's what's happening for the age group that we're at here.
Christa Potratz:Well, you know, I'm sure that, with your background and with everything that you have been a part of too, you can probably help us all just to be able to define abuse. I'm sure there's many different types of it, but how would we go about defining abuse and talking about it?
Michelle Markgraf:go about defining abuse and talking about it. When I explain abuse to people, it really breaks down into two things. The first is it's a pattern of behaviors. So it's not something that happens one time, like I had a really bad day and hit my husband or wife. It's a pattern of behaviors that happens over and over and over throughout a relationship and it is also an attempt to control what somebody else thinks or does. So those two are really the elements of abuse. Is there's got to be that continuing behavior and you're trying to control people? The way that it happens can be in a lot of different ways.
Michelle Markgraf:I think when most people think of abuse, they think of the physical abuse. They think of the bruises or the black eyes or broken bones, things like that, and that certainly is one element of abuse. But abuse happens across an entire spectrum of things. The two things that concern me more than the physical is the emotional abuse and spiritual abuse. That often happens where the abuser is trying to control a person by making them fear what's going to happen. We often hear people saying I'm walking on eggshells around that person, and that's an element of the mental abuse, of you're never quite sure what's going to make them upset. You know, am I doing it right or am I doing it wrong? And it's always me, me. What am I doing wrong? And that's difficult, and it's even more than the physical, because the physical your eye is going to heal, your bones are going to heal. That mental, emotional abuse is a lot harder to heal from and we see ramifications years and years and years. After an abuse has occurred. We'll still see that some people suffer the trauma of what happened.
Michelle Markgraf:For me, why it was important to work with churches is the spiritual abuse aspect that often happens in relationship. And again, it's trying to control somebody. So the abuser will take Bible passages and twist them to make the person listen and obey. One of the things that I see is the man will say well, the wife want to obey my husband, I want to submit to him, but at the same time he shouldn't be telling me and I've heard this that I shouldn't use toilet paper to blow my nose, I can only use Kleenex. That's going too far in being submissive to a husband.
Michelle Markgraf:And then some things that people never really think about as far as abuse is economic abuse and technology. And economic abuse is controlling the money so that the person who you're controlling can't leave because they have no place to go otherwise and they have no access to money. I worked with a woman once who we found out that she had the house was in her husband's name, that all the vehicles were in her husband's name. The detective had arrested him and found some money in the vehicle and he said here you can have this money. And she was afraid to take it because she wasn't allowed to have money. And if you have absolutely no access to money, how can you leave that abusive relationship? So that's economic abuse.
Michelle Markgraf:And technology. We see that a lot with Facebook, instagram, all the online technology, where we've seen abusers who will take control of somebody's Facebook. Like I might go to my husband's Facebook profile and say my family is awful, I hate my family and things like that, and then his family sees it and thinks, well, this guy is our son, why would he say those hurtful things? And kind of pushes the family away then from him so I get more control over him. And technology can also be used with just phoning somebody, texting somebody. We worked with somebody at the Compass Center who had over 150 texts in one day from her abuser. And how do you work and not get fired when you have to be constantly answering these? Because if you don't answer the text you get in trouble and when she gets home it could be some serious things happening. So definitely abuse is that pattern of behavior trying to control, and there are many different tactics an abuser uses to get that control.
Christa Potratz:Michelle, you talked a little bit about the spiritual abuse. But how else might we as Christians see abuse, maybe in our circles and churches and different things? I think sometimes there is the tendency to think, okay, that happens in sinful or secular homes or homes that don't have Jesus. But how would we maybe reframe a little bit with how that can happen in the Christian community?
Michelle Markgraf:Very, very normal to think it doesn't happen here and whether it's a church or just your friend group, it's super easy to think, oh, that's not happening here. The statistics are that for women, 40% of women will have a physically abusive relationship at some point in their lifetime. We never think of it happening to men, but for men it's one out of four. It's going to happen. And God doesn't have this special dome around our churches that says well, I know, sometimes some people in church steal, but you're never going to be abusive. The devil works everywhere and everybody has the same temptations. Unfortunately, it does happen quite frequently in churches and I've not seen any statistics differently that 40% of women in churches, 25% of men, in their lifetime will have some kind of abusive relationship, and we just need to be aware of that, that it is happening and it certainly can happen in a Christian environment.
Michelle Markgraf:We all sin. This is another sin and something just to be aware of and not to think well, they're not saying anything, so everything's okay, because it's very difficult for somebody to come forward and say, yeah, I'm in a rough relationship. It's really difficult, especially in today's Facebook, instagram everything is great era. So even though people aren't saying it doesn't mean it's not happening, and it could very well be happening to somebody that you know. I mean statistically, if you know more than four men, it's probably happened or will happen to somebody that you know.
Jeff Samelson:You mentioned earlier the wife. You should obey me. Misuse of Scripture. What are some other rationalizations or excuses or defenses of abuse that Christians will use?
Michelle Markgraf:You can just about take anything in Scripture and twist it for an abuser to make it sound good and to back them up, and it could be anything from well. You're the man, so you should be taking care of the whole family, and why aren't you doing that? And why aren't you working three jobs to help make sure that we all have what we need and you're not taking care of the family like you should? It can really be just about anything within scriptures, and both men and women can use scriptures to try and get the other one to do what it is that they want them to do.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, that's really sad. I mean especially too, I hear that and I'm like, oh, that's not what scripture is supposed to be used for, and so that's just a really sad part of it, yeah.
Jeff Samelson:And why churches need that help and assistance in understanding what's going on in the background reinforces for me the importance of pastors, teachers, churches just teaching what it really means to love, because loving as Christ loved us is pretty much the opposite of abusive behavior and we really need to spell that out for people, to make it clear to the abused that what's happening is not love, and make it clear to the abusers, if they're willing to listen, that their excuses don't hold.
Christa Potratz:There's maybe a tendency to think that when somebody is being abused, that that's the really hard part, which I'm sure it really is. But is there something that happens after a person leaves an abusive relationship or an abusive situation that could maybe even be more traumatizing? Or, I guess, maybe a better way to ask, that is, what are the long-term effects of being abused?
Michelle Markgraf:The effects of abuse can last a lifetime and oftentimes they do, especially when there's quite a bit of emotional, mental abuse that happens, and some of that is because that person who's been abused has been conditioned to first of all believe it's their fault and they carry that guilt, that shame with them as they continue, that shame with them as they continue, and then it also causes a type of trauma that's similar to PTSD that soldiers have in war, and anything in the future can trigger that trauma. It could be the smell of somebody's cologne, because it's the same cologne that their husband wore, or it could be a song, because that was the song that would trigger the wife to yell at her husband. Whatever it might be, but it can have effects way down the road. When we work with survivors of abuse. I worked with a bunch of therapists at the Compass Center and we would see somebody get to a really good, healthy place healthy place and then they'd be back in a year because something happened that triggered them and brought them back into the abuse and brought them back down. So it's definitely not something you're overdone. Everything's perfect. It can take a whole lifetime of therapy.
Michelle Markgraf:I really highly suggest therapy for people, and we have got Christian Family Solutions, which is a great outlet for a lot of Wisconsin Lutheran Synod people as well as others who might be listening to the podcast. But that's a really good Christian counseling group that understands abuse and has worked with quite a few survivors of abuse and I really like the things that they're doing with them. A lot of congregations out there can get a few free sessions. It depends on your congregation if they've paid for that or not, and I'd say, just talk with your pastor and see if you have some free sessions.
Michelle Markgraf:I always tell people try therapy. It might work. It might not work, but at least you've tried it. I think the younger generations are more apt to do therapy. The older generations, such as myself, it's more like oh man, I can handle this all on my own. And that's not true. If you have strep throat, you'd probably go to a doctor. If you have this happening, this mental health issues with your past abuse, a doctor is important too, and it's just a different type of doctor.
Christa Potratz:You mentioned before, too, that women are more likely to be abused than men. Are there any other types of groups that maybe are more likely to be abused? I just think from you know a standpoint of maybe being able to identify or, as other as the Christian community, are there groups that maybe are more likely to be abused that we should be looking out for?
Michelle Markgraf:Abuse can happen to anyone, any socioeconomic level, any religion, any ethnicity. It happens across the board. Because that sinful desire to control can happen to anyone and anybody can fall into that type of relationship. There are some things that might make you more susceptible to abuse and that would be if you grew up in a family where abuse was prevalent. That becomes normal to you and so getting into a relationship like that feels natural and normal. And a lot of times if somebody has had an abusive relationship in the past, they're much more likely to get into abusive relationships in the future. And it's going to sound counterintuitive, but if I've been in an abusive relationship in the past, I will probably seek out that type of relationship in the future because it's comfortable to me and I know the parameters, I know how to deal with that.
Michelle Markgraf:I've heard a lot of survivors of abuse say I'm in a healthy relationship and it feels scary to me because it's just not normal. So having that normalcy of abuse you know if it's happened in the past, it's more likely to continue in future relationships just because it's normal. And if you grew up in a household like that, that's the normal, that's how you interact with your significant other and will more likely happen in the future. And it will more likely happen in the future, but anybody is open to it. I often talk with teens who say I'm never going to do that and I say don't say that because you just never know. Abuse never starts. Abuse happens very slowly over an extended period of time and you kind of fall into it and don't realize it's happening until it's too late. So it can definitely happen to anybody. Definitely never say it'll never happen to me, because then if it does, you'll be even more not willing to go and get some help from somebody.
Christa Potratz:If we find out that someone that we know, a friend, a church member, is maybe telling us about their relationship or about something going on and we think, oh, that sounds a little bit like abuse, what should we do? What would you suggest? I mean, is it wise to just come out and say, oh, I think that sounds like an abusive relationship, you should get out of that. Or you know what is your recommendation if the red flags go up? For us.
Michelle Markgraf:The first part's easy, and the first and actually most powerful thing that you can do for a survivor is to believe what's happening.
Michelle Markgraf:And that can be really difficult because the person they might say is the abuser could be somebody that you respect. It could be somebody who's volunteering a lot at church, and the biggest thing to do is just to believe that survivor in that moment. If it's my sister-in-law that comes to me and says your brother did X Y Z to be the best advocate I can, I need to believe her first that three months now from now, I might learn something different. That makes me not believe so much. But in that moment when you discover it, belief is the most powerful thing that can be done. And then the second thing and this is the hard part of working with a survivor of abuse, and you kind of said what's the natural thing is well, you gotta leave. You know that that's our natural thing is we want to help, we. We see exactly how this is not good. But the second thing to do is to listen to what they want and then be with them in that. So most likely they are going to want to get back together with the person, especially, you know, if they've separated for a little bit, that they're going to want to get back with that person. That's completely normal and my job as their friend, as an advocate, is to help them do that. But then also ask them okay, you're going to do this, but what are you going to do to stay safe Next time this happens? What's your plan? And to help them have that plan. And the reason I say that is first of all, that victim might understand if they don't go back, they could be the next murder victim and so they know best how to stay safe. And if they want to go back into that relationship, let's help them do that. But let's help them stay safe. Maybe it's all right we've got this word. If you say tinkerbell to me, then I know I need to get over to your house because something's happening. Just figure out different ways to keep them safe. Help them safety plan in different areas of their life.
Michelle Markgraf:The average number of times somebody's going to leave their abuser and come back into the relationship is seven before they leave for good, and that is so tough as a person on the outside to see. You know it's not good for that person. You see this happening to them. But we need to be there all seven times or ten times or however many. It is because when they are finally ready to leave for good, they need your support, because without support they have. I mean, what if there's economic abuse and you don't realize it? You're telling them to leave, but they can't. So having your support is really important for when they do finally want to leave. Is it easy? Not at all, it is very difficult. But definitely believe, and I would also say, just be on the lookout for it too.
Michelle Markgraf:We like to think it's not happening to people that we know, especially if we didn't grow up in that type of environment. It doesn't happen to my friends and family and it does. And I have a story of a friend of mine who, before I, really got into the domestic abuse sector of work. They were friends and she'd say a few things where I just thought, well, that's, that's really dumb. Like he wanted silverware only one way in the dishwasher and if it wasn't that way he'd get mad. She'd say, like I'm like, well, just put it the right way, you know what's what's to worry about.
Michelle Markgraf:But then one day they came over to our house for supper and she kept excusing herself to the bathroom and she has a doctor, and I thought, well, maybe she's on call and she's just doing her call in the bathroom.
Michelle Markgraf:And I asked once when she left I said what's wrong? Why does she keep going in the bathroom? And her husband said, oh, she's been throwing up today, but I really wanted to come to your house, so we're here for supper and I'm like all right, no-transcript. And said you know what? That's not okay, that he brought you over throwing up. And it's not okay because of what it did to you, not because of, you know, making me sick. And so just being aware of that and seeing that and not being afraid to say something, just gentle, like is everything okay? I'm not going to say is he abusing you, because she's not going to say yes, but just say you know stuff like that happen very often and just find out more and again, believe as she says it and, at the end of the day, do what she wants, but help her, do it safely.
Jeff Samelson:Are there particular signs or anything? Obviously, if some guy is beating up his wife or kids and there are bruises, we can say, oh, that looks like it could be abuse. But if it's not something like that, I mean, what are the things we should be looking for?
Michelle Markgraf:Definitely the physical signs are the easiest. Other things that could be signs that there's abuse happening could be low self-esteem Somebody's always putting themselves down Could be difficulty in controlling their own emotions. Maybe they get angry super easy or they have outbursts or demanding behaviors. That could be a sign of abuse and something we see quite often because abuse is controlling somebody else is we see somebody that has poor boundaries and they let other people just come in and do as they wish, whether it's a friend or the abuser just because that abuser has pushed the boundaries so much to get control that now the person who's the victim doesn't have good boundaries.
Michelle Markgraf:And that shows up in all of their relationships, not just that with the house. And sometimes it's just listening to your sixth sense of saying so. For me, from now on, if I say that person's a jerk, I'm going to go talk to their spouse or their boyfriend, girlfriend and say you know how are things going. So some of it's just listening to that too. But yeah, it's not easy because people hide it, because we don't want to tell people that's happening in our lives. It's a very personal and very intimate thing and it's hard to invite other people into your life when it's happening.
Christa Potratz:You mentioned earlier about some of the work you had done when you were at Kingdom, workers with congregations. What is it that congregations can do to help people that have survived abuse or who are being abused too, that have survived abuse or who are being abused.
Michelle Markgraf:Too Big thing for Toshes is to talk about it and talk about it. Often there are a lot of examples in scripture of abuse that takes place and we kind of gloss over the abuse and talk about other things. But you know, like when Lot stuck his daughters out and let the men of Sodom and Gomorrah have their way with them, that's abuse and we don't talk about it really as abuse in our church. But when stories like that come up, say that's abuse. Finding those things in Scripture and pointing out abuse and talking about how that's not okay is really important. Sometimes we only leave it for like, the domestic abuse month and might be one time in the year, but being able to talk about it all the time is important. Through Kingdom Workers there is training that is offered for people in the church that want to be advocates and can be like the safe person for somebody to talk to.
Michelle Markgraf:I'm an advocate at our church in St Paul's New Ulm and we've got tear-off strips in all the bathroom stalls for both men and women with my phone number and email information that they can send to me.
Michelle Markgraf:Our pastors are really good too, because I know how to be an advocate of sending people to me if they want to talk to somebody else Victims when I first talk with them I'm like I'm not going to tell pastor that you're talking to me.
Michelle Markgraf:If you want him to know, you can let him know, but I'm not going to say anything and build that relationship of whatever you tell me is very confidential and nobody's going to hear about it and just for people to know that that's okay and some people might never talk to me, but they see those posters in the bathroom, they see that that's available in the church and that's a signal to them that this church understands this is happening. They're not going to push it under the rug. Hopefully it makes some of them more willing to talk to their pastors about what's going on because, again, that spiritual abuse is what concerns me the most and I don't want their faith to be shaken by the abuse or have that abuser tell them that they're not going to heaven because of X, y, Z and they really need that reassurance from the pastor.
Christa Potratz:If someone is listening to this podcast and they are a survivor of abuse or are still suffering from abuse, what would you want him or her to know?
Michelle Markgraf:The biggest thing is that you are not alone, because being in an abusive relationship it feels like I'm all alone because people around you aren't talking about their abuse either. So understand this is happening to other Christians. It's most likely happening to other people in your church. You don't know in your church. You don't know about it because they don't know about what's happening to you either. So just understand that this isn't something only you are suffering. It is happening to you as well. And I like to point to Jesus. He suffered the ultimate abuse with absolutely no reason in the world for it to happen. He was perfect and he gets it. Even if you can't tell anybody else being able to talk to Jesus in prayer, he understands what happened and what you're going through, and he went through abuse as well while he was on earth and is very understanding and better to listen to your abuse story than somebody who suffered hell for no reason. So definitely point everybody back to the word if abuse is happening in your life and to know that Jesus does understand what's happening and he is with you. We oftentimes don't know why it's happening and that's a huge question. That survivors ask is why, and we might not know. This side of heaven. I've worked with a lot of abuse survivors who now help others and they say that was a tough part of my life and now I can help other people and they kind of see that full circle and they're very thankful that they can help others. Maybe that's why, maybe it is just because that is the way the world is and we won't know until heaven why this is happening. But those are the big things. You're not alone. Jesus is with you, he's walking with you, even if it doesn't feel like it all the time. Sometimes it can feel very, very lonely.
Michelle Markgraf:Very much encourage reading the Psalms, reading the Gospels, reading what Jesus did for you. And then there is help out there. There's a national hotline that people can just Google the National Domestic Violence Helpline and that helpline can get you in touch with your local shelters. Not that you have to go and live in a shelter, but they can definitely help with advocates who offer free help to folks. Whether they want to do a protection order, if they want to just plan for their safety, if they want somebody to go with them to talk to a detective, the shelters are there. They do a lot more than just shelter people. They're there to listen to and sometimes they even offer free therapy with people who are trained to work with abuse survivors. So there's help out there and I encourage people to keep moving forward and know that you're in my prayers, if not by name, at least by what's happening to you. Least by what's happening to you.
Christa Potratz:Well, thank you, michelle. Thank you so much for joining us, and we thank all of our listeners too, and if you have any questions on this topic or any others, you can reach us at lifechallengesus. We look forward to having you back next time. Bye.
Paul Snamiska:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit ChristianLifeResourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.
