The Life Challenges Podcast
Modern-day issues from a Biblical perspective.
The Life Challenges Podcast
Are Extreme Measures to Correct Extreme Wrongs Warranted?
What drives someone who identifies as Christian to commit acts of political violence? In the wake of the tragic shooting of Minnesota state legislators, we examine the disturbing intersection of faith, extremism, and vigilante justice.
We explore the psychological and spiritual factors that lead people to believe they must take extreme measures to correct what they perceive as societal wrongs. From abortion clinic bombings to political assassinations, history shows these aren't new phenomena—though media coverage often suggests otherwise. The common thread? A dangerous impatience with God's timing and a fundamental misunderstanding of Christian vocation.
The biblical perspective offers striking clarity. Romans 13, written during Nero's brutal persecution of Christians, maintains that governing authorities exist by God's design specifically to reward good and punish evil—not individual vigilantes. Jesus himself demonstrated remarkable restraint, rebuking disciples who wanted immediate vengeance against those who rejected them. His command to "love your enemies" leaves no room for exceptions or qualifications.
We consider how some strains of Christian nationalism have fostered the belief that establishing moral conformity through political power should be Christians' primary goal—rather than spreading the gospel through relationship and witness. As one pastor notes, "We become so ideologically perfect, we become theologically worthless." When Christians become known more for political grievances than grace, our testimony is compromised.
For believers troubled by genuine societal issues, we outline a biblical approach: pray for those in authority, engage democratically through voting and civic participation, build relationships that demonstrate Christ's love, and—hardest of all—genuinely love those with whom we deeply disagree. The challenge is to examine our motivations and ensure our actions truly reflect Christ to a watching world.
SHOW NOTES:
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on today's episode.
Bob Fleischmann:Remember this First of all, when Paul wrote Romans, he hardly had a God-fearing government that he was working under At that time. It was Nero, I believe it was Nero, and Nero very much did not like Christians, tortured them, burned them at the stake, all that kind of stuff. But it was in that climate that he said they are still God's authority. Why? Because governing is governing this world. God is governing all of creation. Your mind should never be off the focus of eternity, even when bad people get into good positions.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources people get into good positions and more.
Christa Potratz:Join us now for Life Challenges. Hi and welcome back. I'm Krista Potratz and I'm here today with Pastors Bob Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson, and today we're going to talk about our extreme measures to correct extreme wrongs warranted. And this topic really stems from the recent events in Minnesota where I believe it was a state representative and her husband were shot and killed and a state senator and his wife were shot and hospitalized. And as more information kind of came out in the story and with the shooter and everything too, I mean we learned that he was, or at least claimed to be, christian. And so, just with all these too, we just wanted to talk about the topic. But before we get into some of these questions and everything, does somebody want to talk about a little bit about what happened?
Jeff Samelson:Well, you described it pretty well. I mean we could get into all the ins and outs details of it, but I don't think that's so much relevant and I imagine most of our listeners have heard at least the outlines of the story. This is a guy who apparently grew up Lutheran hometown of Sleepy Eye, minnesota. If I remember correctly. There's some recordings that became very serious. I don't know if born again is the term you would use, but very serious conservative Christian got into a charismatic church Pentecostal and claimed to be in a or to be starting a mission that was aiming to reach out to Muslim fundamentalists and such and try to convert them to Christ, and traveled the world to do that. What was reported?
Jeff Samelson:It's kind of a mixed up guy who never seemed to be able to settle on much of anything.
Jeff Samelson:He's always trying one thing here, one thing there, which I think is probably indicative of the fact that what motivated him or what was leading him into his decisions was not so much. I have a strong religious conviction, but I don't know from one day to the next what I'm about and oh okay, I think this is the thing I'm about today and I suspect we will find that that's a lot of what was going on with him, but we have not been given. At this point today is the 20th of June when we're recording this I'm not aware that anything has been released by the police about anything. They've found any kind of manifesto or something explaining this, and he has not gone public with any kind of statements either, and so there's still just a lot of speculation as to what exactly was motivating him. But what we do know is that he publicly identified as a Christian and that he did all sorts of things that were out of the ordinary as a Christian, and it's natural that people in the media and elsewhere are connecting.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, and just remember that the media is very much attracted to what's out of the ordinary news, and so when you've got somebody showing up at the door dressed as a policeman, knocking on the door of a state legislator and then killing them, that's obviously out of the ordinary. So it makes a big deal. These stories get high profile. It's not anything new to history. This has been going on, certainly in American history, for many, many, many years. I just finished a documentary series on Ulysses Grant and was just tracking what happened with Reconstruction after the Civil War and then when Reconstruction kind of fell flat in the South, then you had the Jim Crow laws and everything and then people were just taking dramatic measures to try to keep other people in their place and so forth.
Bob Fleischmann:We've known it in the pro-life movement. There have been people who've gone and shot up abortion clinics. We've had people who've shot abortion practitioners. We've had people on the other side come and vandalize one of our centers, severely vandalize one of our centers. We've had assassination attempts on President Trump two of them. In other words, this keeps coming out and of course, the media keeps saying well, we need to tone down the rhetoric. We need to. I think you know. Only people who don't know history talk that way. I think when you understand history, you find that there's always a vein in society that seems to be focused on bringing about change in the most dramatic and fantastic way they can, and in this instance, assassinating, killing the opposition, because that's one way to affect change.
Christa Potratz:I mean I think too, yeah, like we just kind of view those people like well, they're just unhinged and just a little crazy and mental. But I mean, is there more to it than just that, like that these people are just disturbed, or is there something else?
Jeff Samelson:I mean, ultimately we can't really know Maybe if one of the people who does something like this comes out and very publicly, openly explains their motivations. But even then we wouldn't necessarily know whether we could trust him or not. I mean, personally I have a strong suspicion that some of the worst school shooters and people like that have been directly influenced by Satan, that he's been basically whispering in their ears, you know, to get them to do some of these things. It's just, I have no proof of that. It's just. You know what I think makes a whole lot of sense, and so we have to admit that there's, you know, a lot we don't know, but we do know that there's always going to be a spiritual aspect to these things.
Jeff Samelson:Whether somebody's choosing to do evil or choosing to do good, there is a spiritual component to that. And particularly when people are choosing evil, well, we know that's not coming from God. Whether it's just their own twisted sinful nature that's at work, whether it's influence of the sinful world, or whether it's Satan and his minions working on them, we don't know. But that's not something we talk about in public, that's not something we can say. Well, there needs to be a government policy against satanic influence. We can't do that kind of thing, but it helps us as Christians to understand that evil is actually evil, that to a certain extent you can't well, I mean you cannot eliminate evil. It's a reality that we deal with until Christ comes back.
Bob Fleischmann:But we can manage a lot of things around it and that's what we have government for, for instance, to try to protect from that very careful of simple answers to it, because there is in every fabric of society, there's going to be these threads of people who will take the most extreme point of view. You know, when the assassination attempts were made on President Trump, the Democratic Party was working hard to distance themselves from it, and understandably so and rightfully so. For all of my differences that I might have with the Democratic Party, I don't think that they are arguing to go out and assassinate their opponents. I don't think they're doing that. And the same is true with the Republican Party. There's nobody advocating that. There's nobody in the Republican Party that I know of that would say that this was a good thing that happened, or anything like that. And the same thing is true for religious groups.
Bob Fleischmann:Now this fellow appears to be, from what I've read, attached himself to a thread of Christianity that is very big into kind of Christian nationalism, which seems to very much support the idea that one of the first criteria we need is Christian leaders In order to restore Christianity. You know we need Christian leaders. Now, there's a logic to that, but the problem is that it kind of lacks the biblical mandate. We're called upon to spread the gospel, we're called upon to share the message of salvation through Christ. The problem is that some people are just not happy with that. There needs to be a moral conformity, and sometimes they want the moral conformity first. So we need to abolish abortion, we need to abolish gender confusion, we need to abolish abortion, we need to abolish gender confusion, we need to abolish euthanasia, and so we're going to take drastic measures to make that happen.
Bob Fleischmann:And it sounds great, and the Bible even talks about the zealots who tried to enforce kind of a Christian, God-centered form of rebellion within the societies. Gamaliel talked about it in the book of Acts and so forth. But the reality is that is not what God is. I mean, first thing I did when I heard of this fellow, you know, assassinating these people. All I can think of is Jesus telling Peter you do know, I can call down legions of angels and change all this. You do know, I can call down legions of angels and change all this. And a lot of times these are like niche groups of people who think that God somehow can't do it unless I do it, and that's the beginning of bad reasoning and then it just goes south from there.
Christa Potratz:When we think about. You know some of these topics too. You know what are, I mean, some of these extreme wrongs, so to speak, and I know, bob, you know you identified some of them too differences whether you're pro-life or pro-choice or things like that. You know what are some of these topics and what makes these topics so polarizing, and you know, and kind of the ones that we hear about when we do hear about these extreme cases.
Jeff Samelson:I mean everyone, maybe not everyone, but lots of people have this one thing that just really bugs them.
Jeff Samelson:There are people who are just fine with, say, rampant divorce and you know, unmarried couples cohabiting and things like that. But boy, that neighbor across the street who married his boyfriend and they're a gay couple living as husband and husband, and that just drives him nuts. Lots of people have those things. It's like just that one issue, whereas somebody else is really dead set against abortion and wants to limit in every way, but that homosexuality stuff, that you know other stuff, that that just that's not an issue, and so we tend to focus on that. And, of course, you could really get down deep into the psychology as to why this person cares about that and what that person cares about the other thing or whatever, as to why this person cares about that and that person cares about the other thing or whatever. But we just need to realize that there are different issues out there. They can all be disturbing, but some people are going to be more disturbed by them than others. And there's the abortion issue.
Jeff Samelson:There was that incident where the lady smashed up the IVF lab or whatever there are things about marriage, so that one's a little harder to get a target for any kind of extreme action. The gender issues, all sorts of other moral things and, of course, on the other side, issues that people that we'd say maybe on the left are going to be very attuned to, anything that they see as racial injustice or things that are economic injustice and all sorts of things like that as well.
Bob Fleischmann:My first exposure to this I was a student in college and I remember reading a story that was done on Harry Blackmun. Harry Blackmun was the primary author, although according to some sources, justice Brennan did most of the writing. But Blackmun was always considered the author of Roe v Wade, a 1973 abortion decision, and in the story he talked about the horrendous hate mail and the threats that were made and so forth, and it just seemed like a peculiar way to try to convince somebody that they're wrong. It's kind of more of the bully approach. Now, you know, we had a bully when I was growing up. We had a bully living in our neighborhood and his idea was, you know, being a bully is well, you can't walk by where he's standing on the street corner, you have to walk on the other side of the street and so forth. None of that made me like him. I mean it just.
Bob Fleischmann:You know, and I think that what has happened to Christians is that you don't forge a relationship to talk about the truth, to share the gospel, by being so contrary. And we see this happening time and time again and the way I've often spoken or written on it is I usually say we become so ideologically perfect, we become theologically worthless. Nobody wants to talk to us. I mean, who is this guy going to convert, having shot two state legislators? Who is he going to convert? He's going to have his own thumbs-up group, his own fan club. That's going to like what he did, but he didn't win them over. They were already on his side. The problem is that we lose sight. We are not creating heaven on earth, and I could say that until Judgment Day. We are not creating heaven on earth, and I could say that until Judgment Day we are not creating heaven on earth. And yet people still act like we got to do it. We got to do it now.
Christa Potratz:I think too when I hear this story, I mean I even think like it doesn't even sound American to do that, you know. I mean because I feel too like we kind of our premise for being American is that we're going to have differences and we're coming together and you know, and even just like political parties, like OK, you have Democrats, you have Republicans I mean your neighbor across the street is going to be different than you, probably have a different religion. I mean we're just, we're just a melting pot of these differences, and so to just be that extreme just doesn't even seem like it fits with American values as well.
Bob Fleischmann:And I used to believe that until about 10 years ago, diane and I I was preaching down on Louisville, kentucky, and on the way down I decided to stop in Springfield, illinois, and visit the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and highly, highly, highly recommend it. It was one of the most enjoyable times we spent and we came back. I mean, we went there and came back. But one of the shocking realizations is they got a room that they built. There were all the doors and window frames are all crooked to suggest slanting a story and they had all the editorials. And then they had a speaker going on where people were actors, were doing the speeches given at that time. They were horrendous. I mean they went after Lincoln, they went after his family, they went after his wife and the Republicans were no better. I mean they were suggesting things of other people.
Bob Fleischmann:Part of it is when you live in a society that has venerated free speech and venerated, you know you have these rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't know, it's kind of like telling a child you can go in the candy store and do whatever you want. I think they just kind of go crazy, even though they had a bad experience at the dentist, even though they got sick from the last time. They ate all the candy. They just keep getting back into it and I think people just kind of jump on these bandwagons and they just kind of can't control it. It's kind of like what Jeff was saying it happened to be their one thing and they just couldn't control it. And we've all got it. It's funny because not too long ago I started this practice of writing down the things that I feel I need to work on more, and I'm already on the third page, by the way, and the… Just started last week.
Bob Fleischmann:Just started, last week too, yeah it's rough, it's a sobering thing, but it's amazing how, even when you think you've gotten on top of your problem, when it comes up in an unexpected way, it's amazing how it comes back to still agitate you the same way. And I think that that's what's happening. And I've heard, you know, I watched endless television programming. We watch, I think, five different news networks to try to get a balance on the news, five different news networks to try to get a balance on the news.
Bob Fleischmann:And it's very common for the news to keep talking about how did we get to be so bad, how did we get to this point? And I think, first of all, there's too many young people in the news who think that we just got here. You know, when you read the history, when you read what was going on we've been there all the time and it's interesting when Scripture talks about it you constantly get the message yeah, you know they're bad, yeah, yeah, they're bad, but you worry about you and I've often told everybody the one thing you can control is you, and sometimes we're not so good at that.
Jeff Samelson:I wanted to go back in something inspired by the premise of your earlier question, the idea that you know there are wrongs that require correction. Yeah, and there's an assumption often that well, I'm 100% correct in identifying that this thing is wrong and I'm 100% correct in identifying that this is is wrong and I'm 100% correct in identifying that this is a wrong that needs correction by me. Probably there are people, not just in the past but definitely still today, that link, for instance, being a good Christian and following God's will with things like white supremacy or racism, anti-Semitism or whatever, and they say, well, I'm a good Christian. Those things are wrong, you know, and they're connecting these things. So they are going to be wrong when they identify as wrong something like advocacy for racial equality or things that they see as giving favors to the people that they hate, and I will say there's nothing Christian about any of that, of course. And then there are also things that we might objectively and correctly identify as wrong, but they're not necessarily things that we or anybody needs to take action against in order to correct.
Jeff Samelson:Sometimes trying to fix a situation just makes it worse. Sometimes it's best to just leave it alone and let it kind of die on its own or maybe even fester until it's at a point where something can be done about it. And there are some things that are just not our government's and not our own individual responsibility to take care of. Imagine that you're out shopping and you witness a seven-year-old child really misbehaving, talking disrespectfully to his mom or his dad. It's wrong, objectively so, but it's not your place to step in and offer correction, nor is it the government's place to step in and suddenly say, oh, I don't know, you need to correct this. The same principle applies on a societal level. Sometimes there are things that they're objectively wrong, but there's not something to be done. Part of the problem, a big part of the problem with everything we're discussing or what's beneath it, is impatience or what's beneath it is impatience.
Jeff Samelson:I see something's wrong. I think it should be fixed, and I'm not going to wait for God to take care of it. I'm not going to wait for the government to act as it's supposed to. I'm not going to wait for the process of justice to work out. I'm impatient. Something must be done now, and if other people aren't going to be doing it, then well then, it's up to me.
Christa Potratz:When you talk to, I think of Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane how he draws his sword, and I don't know what evoked him. But he just was thinking this is wrong and I'm going to do something about it, and I'm going to do something right now, and it just, I mean, obviously Jesus didn't want him to do that and everything too, but he just really got, I think, fired up in the moment.
Jeff Samelson:Yeah, there's another good example which, if this airs when I think it's going to, will be next Sunday's gospel reading from Luke 9. Jesus and his group of disciples and such are traveling south from Galilee to Judea, to Jerusalem, and they're passing through Samaria and they want to stop at this one Samaritan village and the people there refuse. They say no, jesus is heading that way, no, we don't want you here. And on the way as they're leaving that village, james and John, the sons of thunder, as Jesus called them, said Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven and destroy them? Whoa, what a nice, full of grace and love and mercy attitude there. But they were, you know, they had the same kind of misdirected, impatient zeal. It's like well, this isn't right, it needs to be fixed now, and I think we can all relate to it. But we also have to recognize that's not God's way.
Bob Fleischmann:We've talked about before, about how we don't like dictators, but we all feel that if they would just listen to me that I could fix it, and the idea that I would be the true benevolent dictator. And I was thinking about that. You know, these last few weeks they've had these no kings protests and so forth, and if everyone just looked at the logic of it, you object to the guy who you think is acting like a king so that you could be the king and have it your way. It's something we do and I think when people want to affect change, they just never are happy with God's rules. Whether it's Adam and Eve in the garden, you know wanting to be like God, or you get into Peter taking it upon himself to act. The sons of thunder, you know wanting to bring thunder and destruction onto the city. I mean you got Jonah who wasn't happy with God's handling with Nineveh.
Paul Snamiska:I mean.
Bob Fleischmann:It's just you constantly are finding that the people who are supposed to know best don't always know best. It would be an important lesson for society to learn that nobody has a market on purity in this regard. The Republicans, the Democrats, we've all got little deficiencies and the church has got deficiencies. Somebody in the church, someplace, is teaching that we need to overthrow the government to make it a truly Christian government and, quite honestly, they're wrong, flat out wrong. They're not just mildly mistaken, they are wrong. They cannot find a biblical passage that's going to even remotely support what they think they're trying to do, but it seems to appeal to itching ears, and when people take action, action appeals to itching ears.
Bob Fleischmann:That's why I've always been a little bit concerned with populist movements, because populist movements are always built on itching ears. What do you get? What's everybody riled up on? I did a deep dive on. How do you elect somebody like Adolf Hitler to head up things? You know 1938, he comes to head up things and pretty soon he's got concentration camps, he's eliminating the World War. I you know disabled people. You've got all of this going on. How do you get to that point? Well, you do it with what's called a populist movement. You get people riled up by kind of like some small common denominator things and then it just explodes from there and nobody bothers going back to the standard of God's Word to do a check, because populist things are not in and of themselves wrong, but sometimes populist things are wrong and the only way you know is by going back to the standard of truth.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, you know we talked about some of these biblical examples of people kind of getting fired up and wanting God to act in certain ways. But what does the Bible teach us about responding to extreme?
Jeff Samelson:wrongdoings comes to mind and I think answers a great deal of this is Romans 13, where Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit, points out that the authorities that exist, meaning the political authorities, they exist by God's authority. He has established them, that the ruler is God's servant. And what is the servant's job? To punish wrong and to reward what is right. So that's the government's job. So, by definition, then, if you're not part of the government, it's not your job.
Jeff Samelson:Part of the confusion we have in the United States is that you know alludes to something Bob was saying earlier. It's like there's this idea you've too much absorbed the idea that this is a part of things. Start thinking that, okay, well, that means all the authority of the government belongs to me as well, so then I can go out and make these changes. But that's not the way it's set up. God has not actually given you that amount of authority.
Jeff Samelson:It's an issue of vocation. You can have a vocation as a mother, a father, a husband, a wife, a teacher, a lawyer, a judge, a wife, a teacher, a lawyer, a judge, a assembly line worker, a farmer, whatever it might be. That is not the same thing as a vocation that says you can go out and punish wrongdoers or it's you know, you have the vocation of going out and stopping some great wrong from occurring. That's not saying we're not responsible for loving our neighbors and looking out for them. We do what we can. But this idea of being the means of retribution, that is not something God has given to the individual person, particularly not to the individual Christian. That's something he's given to the government and I think that is just a real fundamental principle from Scripture that informs a lot of this.
Bob Fleischmann:The passage you know, vengeance is mine, says the Lord, and then a lot of times we like to add the words, but I'd like to help you know and sometimes we are that way.
Bob Fleischmann:We just I've sat down with people especially you know, obviously I've been at this all these years the abortion issue. Babies mean an awful lot to me and the idea that someone would choose a profession of killing the children is just—and so you know when I've told people I can identify with the rage that says that there needs to be a punishment for this. But it's not my place to do that. When Jeff referenced the Romans section on the government's establishment by God, a lot of people have said so. You mean to tell me that Hitler was God's choice and so forth. Remember this.
Bob Fleischmann:First of all, when Paul wrote Romans, he hardly had a God-fearing government that he was working under. At that time it was Nero. I believe it was Nero, and Nero very much did not like Christians, tortured them, burned them at the stake, all that kind of stuff. But it was in that climate that he said they are still God's authority. Why? Because governing is governing this world. God is governing all of creation. Your mind should never be off the focus of eternity, even when bad people get into good positions. You know the ultimate solution when you want to affect change in the world is then you've got to run for office In a representative form of government. You have a voice. Get involved.
Bob Fleischmann:Now if nobody wants to vote for you because you're a wingnut, you know there might be. You know a message there too that you should take to heart your case, and you try to get the ear of people who are in those positions and you try to explain what's going on and you try to point out from Scripture how they should be. Now, if you're doing this to somebody who doesn't accept God's Word, that's pearls before swine Then you're not doing it. Then you want to appeal to other secular-type authorities. Now, by the way, it's an interesting thought project to try to imagine how you make this case to Christian leaders and how do you make this case to non-Christian leaders. What do you say when you have people who reject God, reject the Bible, but they happen to be in a position of authority and they're the government? How do you affect change? I think you pray. You start with pray, you start with pray and you talk to them. You know.
Bob Fleischmann:The thing is that we've talked about this before that the first century Christians began to really shine when the heathens found that they were rescuing their children that were left out for exposure and so forth. When you show a love in a world that's growing cold, you stand out as an oddity. And if you stand out as an oddity, then people are going to wonder. They're going to just be curious about you. You can make friends with somebody who doesn't believe in Jesus just because you show a kindness that they haven't seen and it opens a door, and then you have discussions and remember you're not going to talk them into your faith. That's not your authority. You don't have that power. You're just simply the witness, and the thing is is that you witness with your words and with your actions. Do a postmortem on your actions for the day. How did my actions convey God's love or did they convey God's vengeance? In which case, then, I usurped my authority, because I am not in charge of vengeance.
Christa Potratz:Any other things to maybe leave our listeners with on this topic?
Jeff Samelson:this topic. Well, just keying off of something each one of you said you mentioned praying for the people who don't seem to get God's will, and Bob talked about the tendency people have to add a but to vengeance. Is mine, says the Lord. But there's also another thing that applies to this. When Jesus says, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, people want to add a but to that as well. Yeah, but this guy's really bad. You didn't mean him, lord.
Jeff Samelson:But don't we need to love these people more, which means we need to do something bad to that person over there? No, it's a clear, precise statement Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. So if you're motivated to right some wrong and self-examination shows you that really what this is is, I'm just really mad at that person because I identify him as my enemy Well then what you need to do is sit down, step back and say, okay, I need to love this person, I need to pray for this person. I don't need to shoot him, I don't need to somehow try to make his life miserable or whatever. I need to love and remember who you are as a Christian, who you have been called to be, who you have been created to be, and it is not an instrument of vengeance, it is not the writer of wrongs, it is something so much better.
Christa Potratz:Thank you both for all of the information today on this topic and we encourage all of our listeners to. If you have any questions on the subject, you can reach us at lifechallengesus and please, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with other people as well. Thanks, Bye.
Paul Snamiska:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information. Thank you for every life challenge.
