The Life Challenges Podcast
Modern-day issues from a Biblical perspective.
The Life Challenges Podcast
Navigating Christianity Under State Control: One Woman's Journey from China
What does it look like to practice Christianity in a country where the government controls religious expression? Jolie, a Chinese Christian, takes us behind the scenes of faith life in modern China, revealing a fascinating world where state churches require government-approved sermons and where house churches operate in a delicate balance with authorities.
Raised in China and introduced to Christianity at age eight, Jolie initially viewed God as "almost like a genie" - someone to pray to only when she needed something. It wasn't until facing major life disappointments and a near-death experience that her faith transformed into a genuine relationship with Christ. Her journey eventually led her to Wisconsin Lutheran College in America before returning to her homeland with a deeper understanding of biblical teaching.
Jolie offers rare insights into how Chinese Christians navigate cultural pressures in a society obsessed with worldly success. She explains her countercultural decision to stay home with her children in a country where career advancement is paramount and where even having more than one child - despite the relaxation of the one-child policy in 2016 - remains uncommon. "They've developed this culture where both grandparents take care of this one grandchild, and then the parents will be working," she explains. "A lot of my other friends feel like even one child is too much because they want to make sure they have enough time and energy for their career."
The conversation explores fascinating aspects of Chinese culture, from the challenges of eldercare in a society with strong filial piety values to the unexpected ways Christianity persists and even thrives under restrictions. For anyone interested in global Christianity, family dynamics in different cultures, or the resilience of faith under challenging circumstances, this episode provides thoughtful perspective on how believers maintain their convictions while navigating complex cultural and political realities.
Have questions about faith, family, or other life challenges? Connect with us at lifechallenges.us or email podcast@christianliferesources.com to join the conversation.
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On today's episode. They've developed this culture where both grandparents will be taking care of this one grandchild, and then the parents will be working and so, and then they yeah, they just become very used to that.
Jolie:So, it's hard for them to think that we can have another one. So a lot of my friends they my Christian friends I think they're open to it. But a lot of my other friends they feel like even one child is too much because they want to make sure they have enough time and energy for their career. So some of my friends they're not even thinking about having kids or thinking like it might be a burden.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz:Hi and welcome back. I'm Krista Potrat and I'm joined today by pastors Bob Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson, and today we have a special guest with us. Today we have Jolie joining us and Jolie today is going to talk about China. Jolie and Bob go way back here and we'll kind of explain that connection here soon, but we really wanted to ask questions, kind of know what's going on with China as it relates to life issues and things that we're interested with the podcast. So welcome Jolie. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your connection with Bob?
Jolie:My name is Jolie. I was born and raised in China. I got to know about Jesus when I was around eight, so my mom was the one who introduced Christianity to me. That's also when she started going to church and then. So we started attending government churches that are more regulated and then the government has authority over it. But we do have somewhat freedom to hear about the gospel and to study the Bible.
Jolie:But back then I think I, or both of us, didn't really understand what it meant to be a Christian. So we felt like God was more like almost like a genie, so we pray when we need something and not so much really digging to His Word. And then we had to kind of change that mindset when I kind of did really bad on my college entrance exam, when it was a really important exam, kind of To us it decides my future, like if I did well then I could go to a good college, which means good career and good future. But then instead I did very bad unexpectedly. So we had to rethink what it meant to really follow God and to be a Christian even when things don't go our way.
Jolie:And then after that I did get into a college, but it wasn't very good, so we were still disappointed. But then I also had an accident. I had a very severe allergic reaction where I just passed out. And then during that incident my mom prayed really hard and I heard her prayer and I was able to just really be sure that God does exist and he cares more about my success. And following Him is not just having Him do what I want, but to follow his will. And so that shift our focus to being a Christian and I got baptized a week after. So when I was in college I also got connected with some Wells teachers. So in junior year of college in China I transferred to WLC and that's when I got connected with Pastor Bob.
Bob Fleischmann:And the rest is history.
Christa Potratz:Well, thank you for sharing that. I think too. When you talk about just that mindset using prayer in hopes that your prayers get answered, but then realizing just how different it is to actually follow Jesus I think that can really resonate with a lot of people. Do you find that most people in China do kind of think that can really resonate with a lot of people? Do you find that most people in China do kind of think that way?
Jolie:I think a lot of my Christian friends. They kind of have to battle through this as well, because China is very success-driven and very rat racing. So we kind of we were all raised in this culture where we have to really depend on ourselves, we have to work hard and to get results and we have to succeed and if we don't then there's no hope. So a lot of us are raised in this mindset. So even becoming a Christian, we have to get adjusted to. Okay, worldly success is not the most important and God is more than what this world can offer.
Bob Fleischmann:Did you live in Shanghai all of your life or in the area of Shanghai?
Jolie:I live in Hangzhou, which is two hours away from Shanghai. It's not very far.
Bob Fleischmann:The other thing I was wondering is I think probably some people might have been surprised to hear that China has a state church. How does that work? It's a completely foreign concept to us in the States.
Jolie:I think China they want to. They say that we have religious freedom, so they do establish these churches. We call them three-self church. I don't remember what the three-self stands for, but one of them is self-propaganda, so we don't accept foreign help. There's no foreigners in these churches. And then the pastors they go to these seminaries are approved by the government and their sermons have to be approved by the government as well. And on every three-self church it says love your country, love your religion. So country goes ahead like country goes above the religion. And then the other is to love the people.
Christa Potratz:My family and I took a trip to China this was several years ago and our tour guide my mom noticed just kept saying you know, oh, this is the biggest. You know whatever in China, this is the best in China and everything I mean everything was about China. I mean it wasn't ever like outside of China, like this is the biggest in the world, or this is the biggest in Asia, or whatever. It was all just the best of China and it just really I like to hear you talking too. Just that whole idea of like country coming first, I think is a very big part of Chinese culture.
Jeff Samelson:One of the things that's, I hope, beneficial for our American and other friends, listening to your description of the state church there, is that that's kind of the extreme, easy to identify example of state control of a church. I mean, you're able to look at that and say but at the same time, that has existed throughout history in so many different ways. It's just often a little bit more subtle. For instance, I doubt that the leaders of your country are going to say well, we're Christians and that's why we should be in charge of the church. Many places in Europe, for instance in the Middle Ages or whatever, I am the preeminent Christian as the king of this country and therefore I should also be in charge of the church and tell it what to do and that kind of thing.
Jeff Samelson:But it's in a bit more raw sense the way that you're describing it, and I think it's helpful, because there are a lot of Americans and others who are kind of thinking well, I don't like the way things are right now. The church should have more control over things. And well, how does that happen? Well, that means we get the church into the government, but that also means that the government gets into the church. Eventually, that balance comes out in a way that you don't particularly like, and it's good to have the reminder that it can be very different.
Christa Potratz:So after you graduated Wisconsin Lutheran College too, or I guess even just your college experience was there anything that stood out to you about Christians here in the US, or just the Christian culture here when you went to college?
Jolie:When I was in China there weren't. So we actually, after we went to government churches, we realized that we're not really studying much about the Bible, we're not learning much. So my mom was introduced to a house church later on and so we started attending house churches where the government is aware, but then they don't. You know, we don't have to get their approval in terms of sermon or worship and whatever we do. So then I feel like that was very helpful.
Jolie:But when I went to Wisconsin and I feel like, first of all, people have a lot of freedom in terms of, you know, religious or anything, or speech. There's a lot of things we're not really supposed to say in China. And then here people have a lot of freedom. And then there are a lot of denominations, a lot of different beliefs and different ways to interpret the Bible, which, yeah, is kind of new to me, because when I was in China we didn't have many resources. So whatever we got, we kind of just studied from there and we would discuss and see if it's true according to the Bible, but there's not much doctrine established. So here I feel like at WLC, as part of the requirement for graduation, we need to take four theology courses and I feel like it was very helpful for me to just have that more systematic understanding of doctrine and the Bible and I really appreciate that.
Christa Potratz:Just even to when you mention house churches in China, you said that the government knows about the house churches and different things. Are those becoming more popular now or not?
Jolie:I'd like to think they're getting more popular because the word is spreading. I think we see a revival in Chinese house churches and, like I said, we don't have many resources, so that's kind of one of a big problem. So there's a lot of also splits in house churches where just people have different views on the Bible or a certain verse or parts of the Bible. But there are, I think, more churches, house churches. In general, we're not supposed to have more than 20 people under the government regulation, so if there is a bigger one, the government would intercede and ask us to split into different groups.
Bob Fleischmann:Now, another thing that I remember you and I talked about was that you're really not allowed to evangelize or proselytize in China. It isn't like, well, this Sunday we're going to work on a big outreach effort. You can't do that, which presents some unique challenges, seeing how a primary call of the Christian community is to reach out. So right now you attend a non-denominational international church, right, and it falls under all the restrictions and everything that you've always had.
Jolie:So, is that a state church? We're registered under the state church as a Sunday school. Okay.
Jeff Samelson:Oh okay, Kind of turning Bob's observation into a question On a personal level. For you, or really for any Bible-believing, gospel-hoping Christian, how easy is it to know where the line is that you have crossed or are about to cross when it comes to sharing the news of Christ with somebody. When you've just met somebody, you've just gotten close enough to somebody to talk, they mention that they've got some problem, or you just simply find out that they're not a believer and you want to talk to them about this or tell them this is what God has to say. How do you know where that line is so you know whether you're stepping over it or past it or whatever? Is that a hard thing to do?
Jolie:I think we're pretty free in doing that if we're smart about it. So yeah, as a church it's harder to do that. But as a person, if I have a friend and a colleague, it's pretty easy to talk about it over a lunch. Or if we go out and we talk about our problems and sharing how I handle my problem, how I rely on God, it's pretty easy. But as a church it's a lot harder.
Christa Potratz:When you graduated college, did you go back to China then? Right?
Jolie:away. Yes, so I studied elementary education in WRC and then for my final student teaching, my professor actually got me a student teaching position in Shanghai, china, and that was where I worked afterwards, because before I left they asked for if I wanted to stay.
Christa Potratz:So after graduation I went back there, okay, so you got married and I know you have some children now too, right, right. And I guess where I'm kind of going with that then is just like the family life now in China that you have and raising your children in that environment. How is that going with everything?
Jolie:I think I might be a little different from my friends. So when I was in WSC I stayed with some friends who took a couple years off to stay with their children. So I just felt really encouraged and I feel like I want to do that with my children, because they're only so little for such a short time. I want to make sure that I am there and I just can't imagine me going to work full time and coming back and still having energy to be with them, to really be present in their life. So after I had my daughter, I made the decision to resign and to stay home with her, and I still am. I started homeschooling her two years ago, but none of this is conventional in China. I had to really convince my parents that it's okay that I don't have a job right now. I will go back to work.
Bob Fleischmann:Did you get criticism at all from friends who think you know when are you going to get out and work and when are you going to get going on this stuff?
Jolie:I think most of my friends they understand. They even kind of envy me for not having to go to work. Yeah, A lot of my friends. They're trying to get a house or buying cars for their children and my husband is from America, so we don't really want property in China or we're not really investing in that, so we don't have the pressure from that, which I think helps me to make that decision of being able to stay home and not having to work all the time.
Bob Fleischmann:Now we've talked about on this podcast on occasion. You know China's had the one-child policy and it's a communist government, so it's a whole different kind of a makeup than what we have here. How has the one-child policy matter go in China? How did it affect things, or what consequences do you see of it in your experience there?
Jolie:Most of my classmates are the only child in their family. So I think growing up we just knew, we all, just you know, there's only one kid in each family, so we weren't really taught that there is another way. When I was in middle school I had a classmate who had two more kids in their family and we were all in awe. We're like how come, what happened? How can you have three? And she said they're very well off so they were able to pay the fine for breaking the law to have three. But it did cost a lot of money.
Jolie:So we I don't think we were we felt the impact of it. You know we don't have siblings to play with, but we do become good friends with other kids in the neighborhood. So it didn't really affect me until, I think, later on, when I was in college and then people asked me about it and, and I'm realizing, there are some friends whose parents have to go through abortion or they have to send their kids somewhere to hide until it's safer to come back. So I have some friends who are like that, who still kind of hold grudges toward their parents for sending them away, but now more understanding that they kind of had to do that to preserve their life, are having.
Jeff Samelson:What's been reported is that that's not working so well that they did too good a job of convincing people that it was good to only have one, if you're even going to have any, I guess. I'm just asking what you've observed about that. Is that the correct understanding of things, or do you have any stories to tell about that?
Jolie:you know the correct understanding of things, or do you have any stories to tell about that? Before I got married, 2016 is when they started to come out with the policy that if you, you're allowed to have two. So I think people it's just because we're so used to having one. The policy has been there since 1979. So people are very used to it. They've developed this culture where both grandparents will be taking care of this one grandchild and then the parents will be working and so, and then they yeah, they just become very used to that, so it's hard for them to think that we can have another one.
Jolie:So a lot of my friends they my Christian friends, I think they're open to it. But a of my other friends they feel like even one child is too much because they want to make sure they have enough time and energy for their career. So some of my friends they're not even thinking about having kids or thinking like it might be a burden. And then I feel like China our government isn't too, so they gave us this policy but there's not much benefit in supporting having more than one, Like there's no extra benefit in raising more children. So people just feel like one is very stressful already. Why do we need two. Yeah, so we haven't really seen an increase, I guess, at least in the people around me.
Jeff Samelson:As a Christian mother, do you feel any obligation, or even just urge to try to convince your friends who are skeptical that no, no, this is actually a good thing? And if so, how do you do that?
Jolie:I think if I talk with Christian friends it's a lot easier because we're kind of on the same page, but with friends who are not Christian it's a lot harder. I can try to tell them that because for me I have my fear of raising two children and the financial or whatever burden I have. But I also know that God has promised that he will provide and the kids. He created them and then he loves them more than I can love them. So I have this hope and assurance of you know God will take care of my kids. But yeah, with my other friends it's hard to convince them when they're already so surrounded by this culture that you have to always earn more. It's never enough. You have to do this and do that.
Christa Potratz:You mentioned your Christian friend. Do you feel like you have a lot of Christian friends in China? How is that?
Jolie:dynamic. When I started attending the international church a lot of friends came from there. So one of my colleagues that worked with me, she invited me to that church. And then their young adult fellowship and I just felt it was a really good bonding that we could study the Bible together. And going on Sunday is definitely not enough for my spiritual growth. And then I think the first year I worked really hard because of some challenges and it was hard for me to be accountable on Bible reading and prayer life on my own. So to be able to have fellowship was very helpful. So then most of my Christian friends come from that church and then there are some other wealth friends who are still in China or in Asia that we also talk once in a while.
Bob Fleischmann:You mentioned about the culture and how, even as the one-child policy was lifted, people just they've been steeped in it. Now you've got children that you're raising in China and I know that you're controlling a lot of it with homeschooling. But where else would they be influenced? Do you think in the culture that just playing with their friends, or something?
Jolie:Yeah, because they're homeschooled they don't have that many friends, but the friends that they play with are also our church friends and they're kids who are also just very like-minded. So currently they're in a protected bubble for now. Currently they're in a protected bubble for now.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, how about at the end-of-life spectrum? What is it like in China Caring for the elderly when people are sick? Is there a high sense of accountability? I know that we've always kind of learned that it was more valuable to have a male child than a female child.
Jolie:The male child can care for the parents when the time comes, and so forth. How does that all play out in reality on their children? And then for China in our culture filial piety is very, very highly valued. So to show respect to the elders, to take care of your parents, to make sure that they're well taken care of, so I think most of it the burden still falls on the kids. And then with our generation we have the grandparents on both sides and our own parents as well, so they all kind of fall under our care. My parents are still living, grandparents have passed, but for a lot of us we have like six people to take care of or to think about when we reach that age.
Jolie:And then there are some nursing homes where you can. You know the grandparents or our parents can go to, but it's culturally. People don't value them that much. Like the care is not very good. And if you do send your parents to nursing homes it means you don't care for them. So there's that connotation. So nursing homes are not very popular. So it's a little bit difficult, because if you have multiple kids, then if someone's not around, then one of the children can help take care of the parents. But for us, yeah, if our parents are sick, it's a lot more difficult.
Christa Potratz:When I hear about China and taking care of the elderly, I think, wow, you know that's such a beautiful thing and you know just a really neat way to value life. But because of just the success and everything, is it actually stressful? Do people have a lot of stress in feeling that they have to take care of their parents? Or is it this, you know, very beautiful, like wonderful thing I get to take care of my parents now, later in life?
Jolie:I think it depends on the person. You know some people if they're really career driven and thinking they need to take a break from making money and then taking care of their parents, and then normally, when they're older, they need a lot more care than you know just the regular meals and stuff, and just the regular meals and stuff. So, yeah, I can see that they would feel pressure to have to take care, especially if it's on multiple grandparents or parents.
Bob Fleischmann:When you became connected with the Wells out there. How did that happen? How did you end up—did you meet Wells? Because you came to WLC, I mean, how did you find out? First? There's all sorts of schools you could end up at in the United States.
Jolie:When I was in college in China, there were a couple teachers there from FLC Friends of China, so they were teaching English. One is teaching English, one was learning Chinese in my college and then so I got to know them because I was an English major, and then they would be invited to some other events. So I got to know them and then, after we became friends, they told me that they are Christians and they would like to have studies we call them English corners where people can come and practice English but also learn about the Bible. So I started inviting my friends. I did have a college fellowship in the college in China and then so I invited them. I invited a couple other friends so they started this English corner. It was very. It drew a lot of students because not just God's Word, but I think people not just that they want to practice English, but they're hungry for God's Word as well. So there are some who are not Christian who would come, and by the time they left, after two years, our group grew from seven to about 70. So it was a huge revival.
Jolie:And then after they left, I feel a little lost. I really miss them and also I talked to my mom. I was like I'm not really learning much in my college. Is it possible to leave? And by then I was in my junior year and she said people are starting to get ready for work, it doesn't make any sense for you to leave.
Jolie:And then I got connected with a wealth teacher that came back here and they recommended a couple schools. One of them went to WSC as well and then one of them went to UWM. So they both told me about their school. I looked into both and then, as an out-of-state international student, the tuition really wasn't different. So I tried to apply for WSC and then there were some other tests that I had to do, like an English proficiency test, and I didn't have much time to prepare but I thankfully that was kind of a confirmation for me and my mom to see whether God really allowed me to come. And yeah, I was able to pass and because of the score I was able to get a scholarship as well. So it kind of helped my mom with the financial burden and just kind of a confirmation to say that it's okay to go. So I transferred in my junior year and kind of had to start over because I changed major and then, yeah, it took me three and a half years to graduate, so I was in college for six years.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, and then you were coming back each year to work on your master's, and you did that out in New Hampshire.
Jolie:Vermont, vermont, vermont, same difference, right?
Bob Fleischmann:They all look the same out there.
Christa Potratz:You know we've talked a lot about just the differences in churches, china versus just America as a whole here. Is there anything else that you think our podcast listeners would be surprised to know, or that is very different, just the way things are done in China versus here in the United States.
Jolie:I think China are still comparatively conservative in a lot of ways, even though it's not a Christian country and the government believes in atheismism. But then a lot of the values are still, I think, aligned with Christian value, so like even though abortion is allowed, and but there are some others like marriage and LGBTQ issue. So people I think there are more LGBTQ people in China they feel more accepted now, but according to the law, you can only get married legally if it's a man and a woman, so that's still pretty conservative.
Bob Fleischmann:Well, and part of the relationship that Jolie and I have developed over the years. Just really, when you got married and you would have questions and stuff, she was always shooting an email or a text and stuff and then, pretty soon, pictures of kids and the rest is history.
Bob Fleischmann:But I mean it was just a good opportunity to kind of stay tethered a little bit and talk about things. It's interesting. I know that it's been kind of a roller coaster up and down as far as during COVID and stuff like that. It's been some hard times. But it was fascinating just hearing her perspective on life in China compared to because living in Shanghai. Shanghai is a huge city but everything is distance. Like you and I were talking the other night about travel and stuff. Oh yeah, well, they're two hours by bus or something and you know, around here I mean I live out in the country Two hours should get me into another state, you know, but for you it's just a lot of travel and you don't have a car Right.
Christa Potratz:Well, thank you very much. This has been a very interesting conversation and just with our podcast and talking about different life challenges. Sometimes, you know, we can just get so focused into what is happening right here with us in our life and it is just really neat to have that perspective sometimes as to what's going on in different places too. So we really appreciate you sharing that with us. Thank you for having me. We thank all of our listeners for joining us, and if you have any questions at all for ourselves and for Jolie as well, you can reach us at lifechallengesus. Thanks a lot, bye.
Paul Snamiska:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christian life resourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at life challengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit christian life resourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.
