The Life Challenges Podcast
Modern-day issues from a Biblical perspective.
The Life Challenges Podcast
Living While Dying: Walking Alongside the Terminally Ill with Danita Ziegler
What happens to your perspective when you work with terminally ill patients every day? Danita Ziegler, a medical professional supporting glioblastoma patients, reveals the profound shift in priorities that comes from standing at the threshold between life and death regularly.
"You cannot sweat the small stuff," Danita explains, describing emotional scenes in patients' homes that put everyday frustrations into perspective. After witnessing families navigate the devastating realities of terminal cancer, returning to normal life brings clarity.
This episode explores the stark contrast between homes with and without faith foundations when facing mortality. Danita shares how she can sense immediately upon entering someone's space whether faith plays a central role—"It's like an aura"—and how those without spiritual frameworks often struggle more profoundly with existential questions. Her observations of dying patients receiving visitations from deceased loved ones and experiencing profound peace strengthened rather than diminished her own faith.
We discover how terminal illness transforms not just patients but caregivers too, requiring support and understanding for both. Danita reveals the burnout risks for professionals in this field and how those without faith "don't last very long." Her guidance comes from Luke 22:26, visualizing Jesus washing disciples' feet: "It's not to make them feel guilty about how dirty their feet are, it's just to wash them."
Whether you're facing serious illness, supporting someone who is, or simply seeking perspective on what matters most, this conversation offers wisdom about presence over perfection and relationships over possessions. As Danita reminds us, "Technically we're all born with a death sentence"—making how we live until that moment all the more significant.
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
On today's episode. You can imagine working with terminally ill cancer patients all day, every day. It really puts your life into perspective. You cannot sweat the small stuff. For example, I'll be in a patient's home where, for our therapy, they do have to shave their head and that can be really emotional. You can imagine the reality of just the diagnosis and the treatment and all of this is coming right there in that moment when your spouse is shaving your head and this can be happening while there's a little girl running around asking why mommy doesn't have hair anymore and just there's so much weight. When you walk out and I go home to my healthy kid and it's like all right, I can probably wait on tidying up the house or doing the dishes and go for a walk with my family, because you just can't sweat those small things.
Paul Snamiska:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Christa Potratz:Hi and welcome back. I'm Krista Potratz and I'm here today with Pastor Bob Fleischman and today we have a special guest with us, danita Ziegler, and Danita knows Bob through her work and what she does. But you know, we kind of wanted to start with Bob describing his relationship with Danita through what he is going through with Diane. We've mentioned it a little bit on the podcast before, but I just wanted Bob to kind of give an opportunity to talk about that.
Bob Fleischmann:Back in April of 2023, diane had what looked like a stroke. The long and short of it is that she was diagnosed with grade 4 glioblastoma, which is terminal brain cancer. She was given, at the time, six to 18 months and it's been, as of this recording, 28 months. When you enter this arena, you encounter all sorts of different people, you undergo a variety of treatments and so forth to try to protect, preserve and extend her life, without extending her agony.
Bob Fleischmann:That led me on the journey that eventually led me to meet Danita. Danita works with a company that provides some of the services that we use. The reason Danita is here? Because we have all sorts of different people, but Danita and I oftentimes would engage in lengthy conversations afterwards just about this kind of work. Because she works with people with glioblastoma, which means statistically nearly all of her patients die quickly or die in pretty short order.
Bob Fleischmann:And you know I'm a pastor, graduated out of the seminary in 1983, been around a lot. I learned more about facing death in my conversations with Danita than all of my years of counseling people on facing death. But it's just been very beneficial. And I still remember, danita, the day that you and I were talking and I just said you know how are you able to do this? And she made the comment. She said I learned that life is transitory. And those were like transformative words that plunged me deeper into scripture, plunged me deeper into introspection and reflecting on these things. And so to this day I take care of Diane, I'm her primary caregiver and while we're recording this she's napping and this afternoon we're going to go out and have another bi-monthly MRI and so forth. But I thought this would be just a great opportunity to. Danita happened to be in the area, so I said well, would you like to be on a podcast?
Christa Potratz:No, I mean, when Bob, too, suggested the topic, I thought, wow, that sounds really great. It's a different perspective, for our listeners too, with talking to somebody whose job it is to come into contact with terminally ill patients and, like Bob said too, for a lot of us it's probably a very heavy line of work with what you do. But we'd love to just hear how you got into your journey here and a little bit about yourself, danita.
Danita Ziegler:Oh well, thank you guys. I'm really honored to be here. I grew up on a dairy farm. My dad was a first-generation farmer who had three daughters. He always said that he wasn't sure farming was always going to be here, but the medical field would. So all three of us, we went into the medical field. When I was 16, I became a nursing assistant, which gave me a couple extra years of experience, I would say. I worked in a memory care facility, I worked with substance abuse, and then I did private caregiving with hospice, and then I did private caregiving with hospice. I then did end up going to school for occupational therapy and ended up at a medical device company which Bob shared. That's when I crossed paths with him and Diane.
Danita Ziegler:I am married with one son and I'll be the first to admit I am one of those people. I definitely believe the lie of children. They are very time consuming, they're expensive. When you have kids, your life's going to be over. And was I so wrong? So just thinking about, like my conversations with Bob and like my faith journey, having a kid was a big step on it for sure.
Christa Potratz:No, and I mean we'd love to kind of hear more about your faith journey too, because when Bob too mentioned to me beforehand about just how you said like that life was so transitory and everything and that that really helped him on his journey, but can you tell us a little bit about your faith journey?
Danita Ziegler:Yeah, I think it's exactly that. It's definitely a journey. There's ups and there's downs and I'm always growing that. It's definitely a journey. There's ups and there's downs, and I'm always growing. I think we all have moments in our life that we think of as challenges in our faith journey. For me, my mom did suddenly pass away when I was a teenager.
Bob Fleischmann:I was going to ask when your mother had passed away, did you go into a rebellious stage?
Danita Ziegler:In ways, yes, I think it's the first time in your life for me, because I grew up in a Catholic church. My mom worked at the Catholic school that I went to. Like I'm so blessed that faith was a part of my life growing up, so I had that foundation because I can't imagine experiencing that without it. My aunts would say so, but I also think it's just that, like the floor from underneath you is taken away. It's just that I had to grow up overnight and I think it's the first time that I ever even had a glimpse of a thought of like what if there isn't something after this? I didn't even question it any parts of my life until then and I don't think it's overnight that that went away.
Danita Ziegler:After my mom passed, I went and worked at a small memory care facility and in a way that was therapeutic these family members and the people who lived in this facility so, like the residents, I could care for them like they were my mom, who will never get old, and I think there's something about that that was healing. I also think being with people in that facility, you're around hospice a lot and people's end of life, and you see things that are beyond any coincidence or phenomenon and it brings you so much peace. More people could probably admit that they're not really sure what comes after and it is scary because it's unknown. In a way, as much as we all say we have faith and we have this plan and we feel good about it, it's like it does come and we are unsure a little bit and I can tell you that, working especially with hospice, and I can tell you that working especially with hospice, seeing these people, their like fears just go away and they, it's all. There's a lot of similarities.
Danita Ziegler:People typically see somebody, like they get visitations from people who have already passed, like somebody comes to get them, and there's so much peace with that and I think bringing this back to I brought up just different parts of our life. Bringing this back to I brought up just different parts of our life. So having a child prior to having a child, I helped and watched so many people leave this earth. So I think then, when I had this child, it like really brings your faith into this full circle of this concept that, as I've started for 300 patients on this medical device who have glioblastoma, I'm a stop in their journey. Really, what I've told Bob is. Life is so temporary. It's like people are leaving and we have to say goodbye to them, but we're also bringing people in and everybody's called for different things of where you cross paths with people and like where we're stops in people's journey.
Bob Fleischmann:Where you cross paths with people and like where were stops in people's journey? Well, and our faith is what finally tells us, you know, because it's called faith. The Hebrews 11.1 definition of faith is faith is being sure of what is hoped for, certain of what you do not see. Your belief that even in death there's life ultimately becomes just. You accept it because God says it. And the thing is is that I'd like to think that we're all fairly intelligent and logical, and so forth. I'm fully aware of the fact that I, you know, I've never seen a dead person come back to life. I've never seen, never put my hands in the nail marks of Christ and so forth. And yet you believe, which is part of the miracle of faith, which is part of the power of the Holy Spirit. But I know, danita, when you and I have talked, you had mentioned that there is a contrast too between the people who have faith and those who don't.
Danita Ziegler:Yeah, so you can imagine, I go into a lot of people's homes and it is so interesting to see like you can walk into somebody's home and know that they have faith. It's like an aura, it's just a feeling. You just know I am so blessed that my job allows me to cross paths with inspiring and amazing people with this beautiful faith. I really do think Bob and Diane are a great example of that I also want to talk about on that other side of things is you walk into homes that I don't know what their experience has been with faith or with the health care system, or there's a lot of baggage going on in this house. There's a lot of dysfunction.
Danita Ziegler:It can bring out these diagnoses can bring out the worst in people and I think, as a Christian, like coming into their home. It's like I have to really just I always liked the song they'll know you are a Christian by the way you love. And it's like when you go into people's homes, you have to treat them differently than the rest of the world has treated them, because a lot of times these people who maybe are negative or draining or maybe it is bringing out like an unkind side, it's just that reminder that we are called to treat them differently than the rest of the world is treating them, because a lot of people have probably not treated them very well.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, and I mean especially at such an emotional time in their life too. And I'm sure you have many connections with not only the patient but in Bob's case too, also the caregiver as well.
Danita Ziegler:Yeah, I want to make it really clear because you can hear even in Bob's voice as he started introducing it's like this diagnosis does not just happen to the patient, it really happens to the caregiver too and they are just as important and just as much a part of this and I've learned it Over time too. I've made mistakes before where maybe I've been prioritizing the patient and kind of like was like, oh, the caregiver is totally fine, and then all of a sudden I can just tell I was like, oh, they, they need just as much and in some cases more of my attention, and especially for the treatment that Diane does, Bob's a huge part of it.
Bob Fleischmann:When we started with the device we had a different contact and then just one time that contact was here and then Danita came and it just was interesting. Of course I'm endlessly curious. I was curious as to how she coped with this kind of work, but her statement about it requires kind of a level of love, especially for people who don't have faith, and when we had done an interview with our case manager at New Beginnings, I had made the observation that you have to start with where they're at.
Bob Fleischmann:The thing that I found fascinating working with Danita is that I don't know what number we were for you as far as how many you've dealt with, she always made you feel like you're the first one or the only one, and I think that that's very critical. I mean, as a caregiver, she was astute enough to recognize that even if the caregiver is a clergy who talks to people about dying, that he still needs kind of concern and care. And she demonstrated that and Diane always appreciated it. And it's interesting because at this stage in Diane's journey she's gotten to be quite forgetful now and so forth. But she remembers Danita, you know, because I'll say to her well, danita will be here and she knows who that is. And that's a lot, you know.
Bob Fleischmann:And people who face a terminal diagnosis, both as a patient and as a caregiver, needs to recognize that there are people out there who do work in this area, who are familiar, who are trained. Talk about some of the good and bad moments you've experienced. You know there've been some. I know when we've talked, there's been some that have been incredible, some have been crushing.
Danita Ziegler:I think you brought up a good point in what you were saying too, about that importance of being present with somebody, and I really think that this job, and as much as I was maybe supporting those patients, they were just as much shaping me and influencing me all those years, every single one of them.
Danita Ziegler:But being present is so important with patients and I actually think that they taught me that because of you can imagine working with terminally ill cancer patients all day, every day. It really puts your life into perspective. You cannot sweat the small stuff. For example, I'll be in a patient's home where, for our therapy, they do have to shave their head and that can be really emotional. You can imagine the reality of just the diagnosis and the treatment and all of this is coming right there in that moment when your spouse is shaving your head, and this can be happening while there's a little girl running around asking why mommy doesn't have hair anymore and just there's so much weight. When you walk out and I go home to my healthy kid and it's like all right, I can probably wait on tidying up the house or doing the dishes and go for a walk with my family, because you just can't sweat those small things, and if I died tomorrow, I'm never going to regret cleaning the house more. So just priorities really shift with this job, I would say.
Bob Fleischmann:You know, when you talk about the shaving of the head, those of us who listen to this who have known Diane will appreciate this story. Diane's always had this incredible faith, very strong faith, was raised in a strong Christian home and taught me so much about faith, just as my wife. What was interesting about her is so we get the initial diagnosis. We saw a mass on a CT scan. The surgeon it's so massive. Oh okay, diane. Just, diane just kind of drifted with it and okay, the surgeon said oh well, it's glioblastoma, it's terminal brain cancer. Oh, okay, you'll have, you know, six to 18 months to live. And yeah, okay, okay, we could maybe extend your life, you know, a few months with this device. Oh, okay, but we've got to shave your head and it was like, oh, just like, right there, it was like that was the one thing that Diane wasn't counting on and we've joked about it since then and after we're done, danita will get a chance to visit with Diane and you'll see that some of her hair has grown back now. But it was kind of humorous, so classic of a reaction for Diane.
Bob Fleischmann:The faith part, confidence part, was fine. All of a sudden, that shaving of the head and one of the things I've noticed is what, generally, on a big scale of things, these relatively small things become big. Like I told Diane today, if her energy level is up to it after her MRI, we're going to go to McDonald's and you know that's a big deal because she almost never can get out of the house now because it's you know, mobility is a problem, and so forth. But they all become big deal. The big positives and then the big negatives, yeah.
Danita Ziegler:Yeah, I think, finding that quality of life throughout all those changes of life. So there's diagnosis, but there's also like the end of life and there still is quality of life there and really technically we're all born with a death sentence. So I think the number one question that a lot of patients ask is like how long will I live? Or you know what does this look like? And I don't have a magic ball and at the end of the day I don't get to pride myself on being a cure for cancer. None of us do these patients. It's like there's so much more than a statistic and for all I know they might outlive me. And just having that faith, that that's where faith really does have to come in to bring you that peace. And maybe not every day people can feel that peace. I think everybody has bad days of like why me? And I don't think that means you don't have faith. It's just you have to have more good days than bad.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah, and on occasion Diane will wonder to God why? But the fact that she's wondering to God tells you she's got faith. But you reach those doubts, those doubting moments. Part of the wrestling with this is we're in a realm of no answers to bed, ready for bed, she said do you know how I will die? And I said well, I said based on what I've read, I said it's probably going to be in your sleep, I said now. I said, if this is cheer up, bob, before we go to bed, conversation. You're failing miserably at this. But the thing is, is that you know, you wonder?
Bob Fleischmann:I think one of the things that I was most curious about when I met Danita and got to know her was you know, I'm OCD, I'm obsessive, compulsive. I mean, all of life is orderly, All of life goes by a plan, everything is, you know, tidy and neat and so forth, and then all of a sudden, you get something like this and it challenges. And perhaps my initial curiosity about Danita was challenges. And perhaps my initial curiosity about Danita was you're dealing in a realm of intangible. You don't know how long you have.
Paul Snamiska:Like you said, you could you know and I've told that to Diane too.
Bob Fleischmann:I said just remember I could still die before you, although I hope God doesn't do it that way now because I can take care of Diane. You know this intangible area was a major adjustment for me, not a minor. That was a big deal.
Christa Potratz:Well, and I think too, people would look at your line of work and think, well, that's heavy stuff, I couldn't do that, or something like that. How do you deal with that?
Danita Ziegler:just the heaviness of your job, yeah so you cannot pour from an empty cup and you need to know yourself well enough to know when you're having those early signs of like burnout. For me it's I'm not maybe as in tune to somebody's emotions as I typically would be like that's an early sign for me, like, oh, I might need to like say no to a few things, kind of do a reset for me. I try to go where I feel closest to God, which is in nature, and it's just like that reset is really important. And then I mean, ideally you would kind of debrief on how you got to that point of burnout and you'd adjust your routine a little bit to avoid it going forward.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, because I mean, I think too, it's just the day in and day out of what you do could wear on yourself or a lot of people.
Danita Ziegler:It does and I will share that. I did move out of this role momentarily and it's funny. It's almost been two years ago now. So after I came back from maternity leave, a corporate job that I worked really hard to get it got eliminated during a large layoff and it was devastating and it's so funny Otherwise I wouldn't have met Bob, for example. But there's tons of things when I think about the last two years and how I really needed that reset to kind of set my priorities straight and remind me, like what gifts did God give me to use and to make the biggest impact I can, and am I doing that at my job?
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah.
Christa Potratz:I mean, those are questions we all ask.
Bob Fleischmann:I'm still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. Agreed.
Danita Ziegler:Agreed. That's where, bob, when he asked me to like come on, I was like I don't know. I don't really feel like a finished story, bob. I feel like I'm in the middle.
Christa Potratz:I don't know. Yeah, well, I mean and I think that's true for maybe all of us, or many of us too that it's just as we go in life and bits and pieces and everything.
Bob Fleischmann:You have co-workers. You know others who do this work. How do they do?
Danita Ziegler:The ones who don't have faith. They don't last very long.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah.
Danita Ziegler:It's pretty and you'll see that and we are not hospice nurses the medical device it does stop and pause the division of cancer cells, so it's earlier on. I just have an interesting background that I also have that experience in hospice as well, so that after you're using treatments I've also had experience there. For my colleagues, you'll see it, if they don't have a framework to pull from, it's not going to work. They won't be able to show up for their patients the way they need to. And I think you see that for hospice care too and even just caregiving in general, because you really have to be able to be like all right, god has put me in this position with this set of skills for this reason in this moment, and kind of find your rhythm with it and feel comfortable with it, because otherwise you just be like this is all very pointless to go and make these relationships with these people to not be able to see them forever.
Bob Fleischmann:I think where our friendship got sealed was when we had reached the point where the device was no longer effective. You know and you're told that at the very beginning, but when you're dealing with a loved one with a terminal condition, you grab at everything and anything.
Bob Fleischmann:And I would imagine you experience that in dealing with people and Danita knows me well enough to know that I'm candid and stuff like that, so I was able to ask her just tell me plainly, you know that I have to make a decision Do we stop using this thing or not? And she was great at not answering the question but leading me to the answer. And how does that play out when you're dealing with? Because some people will grab at everything and anything and those are tough waters to navigate. They're tough to navigate as a caregiver, I can tell you that.
Danita Ziegler:I'm sure they're tough as a patient, but as somebody who kind of plays the role of a counselor to them there does come a time that things can change and I also get to be the face of the device at that point too, and I think over years of doing it, you have a little bit of peace, like the peace that I have with it, that like I'm so glad that I was able to be a part of your guys' journey, like the peace that I have with it when I am having those conversations that are really tough. It's like it kind of spreads. You know, as much as people say like negativity can spread, but so can peace and calm and faith, and just being calming is kind of important during those conversations.
Christa Potratz:Yeah, just hearing you talk too, reminds me. So I lost my father very suddenly to a hemorrhagic stroke, and he was in the hospital for two days before he passed away. And so that first day though, we're meeting with the neurosurgeon and he could tell that we had faith. And so then his faith also came out too in talking to us, and he just looked at us too, because my dad was on a ventilator at that point, and he just said I really believe that God is calling your dad home. And those were hard words to hear, but because he was able to share that, I mean that gave my mom and I and my brothers just a peace to knowing, okay, like this is it, this is how the story is going, but we can have that peace during this really hard time.
Danita Ziegler:And I imagine if you went back and found that neurosurgeon and ask him why they said that sometimes it's just somebody knocked on your shoulder and said this is the right time to say that thing even though it doesn't always feel right coming out of your mouth.
Danita Ziegler:I know it's really easy for people to get caught up in this concept of like, oh, I need to make sure I say the right thing. I'm the first to admit I never say the right thing, but I rarely does. Saying the right thing fix things. It's really connection that can fix things.
Christa Potratz:God knows too what you need to hear too in those situations.
Bob Fleischmann:Again I pointed out. You know, as someone who has counseled a number of people who face the end of life with other loved ones, it's a whole lot easier to counsel you on facing, you know, an end-of-life decision than to now face it myself. But in the conversation, you know one of the crazy things. You know you can, as a child of God, you can study it, you can preach it, you can sing about it about. You know I'm a stranger here, heaven is my home, and so forth. It is amazing how that tight bond of affection makes the conversation, you know that, much more difficult.
Bob Fleischmann:And when we had faced this point where you know the device just reaches a point where it's no longer effective and you reach the point where God is calling them home by all indication. And you reach the point where God is calling them home by all indication. One of the things that's important to remember too is you do know, you know you've got to always remember God does get his way. You know, if God decides that, you may think by, and I've been involved in those situations where so they turn off the ventilator, they, you know, stop the live and they go on for a while. And I thought that when we had stopped the unit, that Diane would be gone in a month or so, month or two, and that was a while ago now.
Danita Ziegler:Not her time yet.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah, and that's the important thing to remember is that all of us are stewards of God's gift of human life. So a lot of times what we're really doing is we're making the best choice with the information we have and God will still get his way. And you can throw everything at it and God will take them, or you can withdraw things and so forth and God will say no, we're going to wait a little bit yet. And again, for somebody who's OCD, I kind of wish he would just kind of give me the game plan. It would go a little bit easier for me. But he's figuring that's not part of my learning program either.
Christa Potratz:So, as we kind of you know, bring everything together too. Is there any scripture or thing that you really draw on, kind of in your day in and day out or as you're dealing with the patients?
Danita Ziegler:Yeah, I think for me Luke 22, 26. So, rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest leader or servant. When I think about what that scripture means to me, I always imagine Jesus washing the feet of the apostles and I imagine what is my role here in this moment. And when I go into a patient's home or you're helping with somebody, it's not to make them feel guilty about how dirty their feet is, it's just to wash them. That's all I'm being asked to do. It's not yeah, it's just to wash their feet.
Bob Fleischmann:Yeah, it's an incredible journey and we're still not done.
Christa Potratz:Well, thank you so much for joining us today and talking with us. I really appreciate it and, you know, thank you for everything you've done for the Fleischman family. It's been great and I can definitely see you know how you have built a connection with Bob. Thank you so much for coming on today, and we also appreciate all of our listeners for joining us, and if you have any questions on this episode or any of our other ones, you can reach us at lifechallengesus. We'll see you back next time. Bye.
Paul Snamiska:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out For more about our parent organization. Please visit christianliferesourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.
