The Life Challenges Podcast
Modern-day issues from a Biblical perspective.
The Life Challenges Podcast
Outlawed or Unrestricted: What Really Changes
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What happens when we imagine two impossible worlds—one where abortion is fully outlawed and another where it’s universally celebrated—and then ask what truly changes? We use this stark contrast to cut through the noise and get to the heart of pro-life work: shaping culture, forming consciences, and loving people in concrete, sacrificial ways.
We start by testing the “dream world” many advocates long for. History reminds us that illegality never fully ends abortion; it only pushes it underground and often makes it more dangerous. Laws matter, and the law can teach, but law alone can’t heal fear, shame, or selfishness. So we push beyond policy to the roots: sexual ethics, family formation, support for mothers and fathers, and faith communities that accompany families before and after birth. Then we turn to the “nightmare world,” which feels uncomfortably close to our present. As access expands and dissent narrows, demoralization and isolation tempt believers—but the early church shows a better pattern: visible love, clear contrasts, and resilient hope that thrives even when culture disagrees.
Throughout, we keep returning to the end game. Winning a vote yet losing our neighbor’s trust is a hollow victory. Real change happens where compassion meets conviction—where churches become known for help, not just headlines; where men are called into responsibility; where the law’s teaching power is paired with patient discipleship; and where the value of life is taught at the level of the heart. Whether laws move toward restriction or celebration, our mission remains: protect the vulnerable, speak truth with grace, and build communities that make choosing life imaginable and sustainable.
Join us for a grounded, honest look at strategy, culture, and hope. If this conversation challenged or encouraged you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a brief review so others can find it. Then tell us: which “world” do you think we’re closest to, and what would you do differently starting this week?
The ministry of Christian Life Resources promotes the sanctity of life and reaches hearts with the Gospel. We invite you to learn more about the work we're doing: https://christianliferesources.com/
On today's episode.
SPEAKER_00:When Christians forget the end game, then we just become so ideologically perfect we're practically useless. We argue for these positions, we fight for them, we we strategize, we vote, we referendum, we do all these things, and we get our way, we enjoy victories, but then we we miss the point. You know, we won a battle and lost a war. The war is still for the souls of people, and uh that's really what should be foremost on the Christian's mind.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to the Life Challenges Podcast with Christian Life Resources. Our world today presents people with complicated issues of life and death, marriage and family, health, and science. It can be a struggle to understand or deal with them. We're here to help by bringing good information and a fresh biblical perspective to these matters and more. Join us now for life challenges.
SPEAKER_02:Hi, and welcome back. I'm Krista Potretz, and I'm here today with Pastors Bob Fleischman and Jeff Samelson. And today we're talking about the topic of abortion, but we wanted to do it in a different sort of way. We wanted to have maybe what we would call a thought experiment. And this is gonna kind of invite all of us to look at abortion in different ways and ultimately draw some themes and different things from it. And so in this thought experiment, we want to imagine two impossible worlds, if you will. One world where abortion is entirely outlawed, and then also one where it is entirely unrestricted. So the first one um is maybe what we would call the dream world where abortion is completely outlawed. Many Christians uh believe that if abortion were illegal everywhere, that the crisis would be resolved, but but would it? And so in this dream world, you know, or in a world where abortion is fully outlawed, would there still be problems? And what would those problems be and exist for women, for families, for for everyone?
SPEAKER_01:Well, earlier you now you used the word crisis. I think if we we got to the point where abortion simply was not legal anywhere, it was completely outlawed and restricted in our country. I think we could say then that the crisis had been settled in that we wouldn't be having the same millions of of babies being killed, and there would be a sense of, okay, we we could take a breath or two and and and work on this, but there would still be things to work on, because there have been times when abortion was completely outlawed. And before the um the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, there were plenty of states where it was still ill illegal, and and even the states where it was legal, it had not been legal for that long. And you know what? People still had abortions, even when it was illegal. And certainly now today, with the technology we have and the medical knowledge and and such, i if tomorrow abortion were outlawed absolutely everywhere in the United States, there would still be plenty of abortions going on. And in a way it would be more dangerous uh because uh uh and and harder to to address because it would all be done in secret and uh har harder to uh identify.
SPEAKER_00:The reason this episode appeals to me is because first of all, it fits nicely with my strategic and analytical way of thinking, and that is if we accomplish our end goal, which is when I support the state and national pro-life efforts, and when I'm electing pro-life candidates and things of that sort, I'm going for this dream world, you know, where abortion would be completely outlawed. And that strategic and analytical side of me says, okay, then what? What happens? And uh I I go back to uh when I was assigned out of the seminary, I was assigned to a mission congregation and literally hit the ground running. I mean, it was uh a big deal. We were trying to get a lot going because I had already been told even before I got up there that that the synod was looking to shut it down because it wasn't didn't seem to kind of be going anywhere. And so we really worked hard and um we we built the parsonage and then we built a we built an A-sized chapel and got off of support status. We were making a lot of progress, and I remember the mission counselor, the late Pastor Bob Hartman, uh, who really I credit in many ways for having saved my ministry because I get frustrated easily. Uh I am the guy who writes on impatience because I'm a I'm an expert on being impatient, remember. But when uh Bob Hartman came in, he he gave me an interesting warning. He said, he said, you know what's going to happen, he said, because you you're rallying the troops, you got a mission church, they're all getting excited, they're all building this new chapel, everything can be done. He said, the moment you're done, they're just going to sit back and settle in and go, now serve me. In other words, you stand the risk of losing that that fire and the drive and part of the bigger picture of what the church is all about, you know, what the mission church is all about. And I felt that way with this thought experiment. If we were to succeed in outlawing abortion, uh, as Jeff said, history has shown that even when abortion was outlawed, and an abortion in the United States was outlawed far longer than it ever was legal. But even when it was outlawed, people found ways to have abortions. If you read antiquities, you read uh the ancient historical novels and writings, you've got Saranus of Ephesus, who was a OBGYN, he gave you instructions on how to abort and what kind of natural medications you could use. And people were trying to do all that. They were trying to still satisfy a different problem that was leading to the need by their perception of abortion. And so I think that if we accomplish the dream of outlawing all abortions, the work continues, but it changes. And maybe, and this maybe is the controversial statement here, maybe the work really doesn't change. Maybe we're always working on the wrong thing now. In other words, if we outlawed all abortions, we still have hearts that still wanted to abort. And as Christians, we're we're always focused on the heart. Even doing the right things, uh, if your heart's not with it, God says it's not really a right thing. All the righteous acts are filthy rags.
SPEAKER_01:Even if we were somehow able to not just outlaw abortion, but to make it practically impossible for anyone to get one. Just imagine some way in which that that were possible. It's not as though that would solve every problem there is. Because even if someone can't get an abortion, they might still decide to be reckless with uh extramarital sexual relations. They they might still uh be entirely selfish as parents. They you know they're all sorts of things that are you know related uh to abortion that would still be you know sinful things that are out there, and there are all sorts of things that would kind of follow on as well. We couldn't get the abortion, so we're going to do this instead after the fact. And um so it's just a Christian's work is never done. And we might say a Christian citizen's work is never done, because there's always going to be sin in society, because there's always sin in the human heart, and um we're all humans, and so we definitely can't ever think that you know, and I think there was some of this after the Dobbs decision that people were just kind of thinking, okay, we're done now, we can relax. You know, we we we we won this thing. And those of us more in the uh know were saying, no, no, it's not over by a long shot. Um, but even if it had been, there's always more to be done.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, and I mean I like this one question here too. I wanted to ask, just would outline abortion automatically create a culture that values life? Or does culture require something deeper? And I like that question too, because I think that that is sometimes where we go, like thinking, okay, if abortion is outlawed, that means everybody really is is pro-life, like for life. We all value life. That's that's wonderful, that's great. So how do you create a society that values life? How how do you kind of influence the culture to value life?
SPEAKER_00:Now I would argue on that one, and and I think I'll I'll leave myself open for correction on this. Uh, but I would argue that when society has laws that liberalize things that go contrary to the word of God, that it tends to never be able to successfully pull back. So if we if we're looking at outlawing abortion, uh which we thought to some degree we had with Dobbs, you found what happened to a society that has already eaten of the forbidden fruit and what they wanted to do with it. And there's some argument uh, you know, when you read writings on history, you know, history mixed with the humanities, and and their influence on society, there are some who argue that laws uh form the morality. And I think that that's a little bit simplistic. I think laws reflect the morality and they do form some morality, but it but it's one-sided. I think because our every inclination of man's heart is evil, you know, autogenesis, because of that being a true statement, if we have l laws that um run contrary to God's word, not just on abortion, but on anything, uh, even if that were scaled back, we're going to find that the scaling back never is complete. And I I think Dobbs is a great illustration of that. I I remember when the Dobbs ruling came down, I remember saying to people around here, boy, this is not going to go well. Because I've I've often said that once you have a movement that has accepted the reality that some life is expendable, they're not going to take kindly to a restriction on it. Immediately, you know, we got high levels of vandalism at one of our centers, we got threats and those kinds of things. And we're a small group, and we're not even militant pro-life. I mean, we're just trying to help mothers and families and so forth, but they're just we were on the receiving end of a lot of hatred. And we're seeing that now in society, that when you when you take away a sin from people, the void is filled by imaginative ways to do more sinning. And that's what that's what's going to happen. And I think that the Christian individually and the church collectively has to look at how do we reply respond to that.
SPEAKER_01:The the question about does outlawing abortion automatically create a culture that values life? We can look at at history and some very recent history to say, uh, no, I don't there's no evidence for that. There are some uh very autocratic dictatorships and things like that where abortion has been absolutely outlawed, often because the uh the the man or the people in charge are saying, well, no, we we want as many people as we can have in our nation. Yet at the same time, they shoot protesters, they arrest political dissenters and and and imprison them and kill them and you know sell their body parts or you know, whatever it might be. It's not necessarily the case that outlawing abortion reflects a value for life. There are various reasons for that. However, there is an old saying, I forget where it originates, but it's simply the law is a teacher. And that is something that I think far too many uh Christian citizens and Christians in politics in our country have have lost sight of, which is if you use the law to tell people this is wrong, at least to some extent, people are going to learn, oh, this is wrong, or at least I should think this is wrong. Um this was one of the problems with um the the laws and decisions recently, uh you know, relatively recently, you know, legalizing same-sex marriage and some things like that. Because people are saying, well, what's the difference? You know, you Christians are still gonna know what it is, what's what and everything, it's not gonna affect you at all. But when the law itself is saying, hey, there's no difference between men and women, well, that's what people are gonna look to. And and if you make an argument otherwise, then they're gonna say, hey, it can't be that big a deal. The law says this is fine. And so, in in that sense, the law as a teacher, if we had laws that outlawed abortion, that would be a good positive thing in terms of helping us to teach that value for life. Because we'd be able to say, look, there's a reason this is against the law, and to be able to explain that it's gonna be much easier to do that in a in culture where uh abortion is against the law than in one where abortion is unrestricted.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I've wondered too, just playing the whole dream or nightmare out, uh, we'll call it a dream here, um, in that if abortion were outlawed, I'm trying to imagine, I mean, completely outlawed, no chance of reversal and so forth, there would be a segment of society that I think would become very anti-natalist. They would continue to propagate a notion that, you know, without the stopgap measure on being able to have an abortion if we got pregnant and didn't want it, there's going to be a bunch of people that are going to start advocating for sterilization early and that kind of stuff simply because people buy into it. I mean, we've seen it over the years. We've seen people who will say, I only want one child because the world is overpopulated. Well, now if you're if you're in tune to population scenarios, there's that we're experiencing the opposite concern of a negative uh population matter going on. And these trends are not easily shifted around. Well, and then I'm I I go back whenever I was hearing uh about this scenario and and when Jeff was talking about the law and the law being a teacher. The law is a teacher, but it but it it also reflects who we're getting our information from. When you are negligent in the Word of God, when you're negligent in in listening, when you're hearing it preached and hearing it taught and you're negligent, uh you're going to be taught by some other teacher. But the truth be told, you will be taught. Uh it's going to be the laws of the land are going to be your teacher, even if the laws of the land are wrong. Scripture didn't change on same-sex relationships. The laws changed, but not scripture. The fact that Christians have jumped onto the onto the rowboat with that uh is an indication of what was feeding them. And I think that with the dream of an of abortion being outlawed, which is the dream I pursue, but the idea that uh it's going to change hearts is completely mistaken. It won't, in fact, it has a tendency to inflame the forces contrary to truth. And we're going to see all sorts of peculiar ramifications of it if we are not acting to work on the heart and to be the preeminent teacher of people.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the the flip side to the the dream world, so to speak, um, would be the nightmare world. And in that world, we would say that abortion is universally accessible and and even celebrated too. And so if we think of this type of world where it is legal, culturally celebrated, and morally unquestioned, what problems or things would we see in this world? What would it feel like to advocate as Christians for the unborn in a world where abortion is completely normalized?
SPEAKER_01:I'll just point out that that nightmare scenario is a lot closer to what we're actually living in than the previous scenario. And so to a certain extent, these answers, you know, what would it be like are like, well, this is what it's like now. It would just be worse. I think the range of motion, so to speak, that pro-lifers have, that Christians have, to be able to make our case, to be able to uh present the arguments, that would be narrowed and narrowed and narrowed, perhaps even to the point where people, you know, which ha has happened in some other countries, people get arrested and thrown into prison simply for advocating a pro-life message. And you know, whether that's one-to-one uh or whether it's you know out on the streets or something like that. And I I guess this is a point where we see we we tend not to appreciate, we we take for granted uh the privilege that we do have currently to be able to speak out on these things and try to influence uh individuals and the society at large.
SPEAKER_00:You know, the um uh the idea of society buying into it totally probably is a closer to description to the time of Christ and Paul, the apostles, than our own time, when that there were all sorts of things that were permitted, including the practice of infanticide and so forth that were just simply accepted or acknowledged and tolerated, and those kinds of things are going on. I think I'm trying to think what would happen. What would happen to the Christians and of the churches if it really was uh wholesale unrestricted and bought into? You could have unrestricted access to abortion legally, but the scenario you described, Krista, also is kind of like society is bought into it hook, line, and sinker, not just the legislators, but society. And I think what's going to what would happen is uh you'd see a rise of monasticism. I think you'd find a segment of the Christian community going to, instead of going into all the world proclaiming the gospel and and willing to take all the risks that go with it, uh I think you're going to find them isolating themselves. I think, first of all, it's demoralizing. For the years since Roe v. Wade, 1973 up until Dobbs, it was a demoralizing period. And it had demoralizing highlights. 1976 uh Planned Parenthood Danforth ruling, uh you get into '82 and uh other other Supreme Court rulings, and you get pro-abortion precedents, and you get the RICO laws applied against um pro-life people protesting outside of clinics and all of these kinds of things. They were very demoralizing, and there were calls for the Christian community just gonna have to isolate themselves. People would talk about immigrating to other countries and starting their own communities and trying to establish new forms of theocracies and that kind of stuff. And and if you are just ideologically encapsulated by the abortion issue, what do you do when you face utter failure? You bow your head and you go back into the locker room and vow never to come out, you know, and that is that's the problem with ideology is that the Christian calling is to still be salt and light in the world, and you are to be an influence. And the thing is that laws laws are not necessarily the testimony of the heart. Right now, you can have round-the-clock access to pornography. What keeps you from doing that? It's a heart aligned with God. That's what keeps you from doing that. Right now, you know, there are laws that allow you to engage in same-sex relationships. What prevents you from doing that? It's a it's a heart that's aligned with the will of God. And Christians have been assigned heart ministry from the very beginning. It's not the mission you take on when the laws are running against you, it's the mission you had when the laws were on your side. And I think Jeff issues a warning there when you know you gotta understand that when you lose a battle. Like like abortion or same-sex relationships and so forth, you see that there's a corresponding restriction on your right to speak freely. And that is what Christianity is all about. It's about sharing the message and living the message. And when I talk to our friends in in China who, you know, are allowed to practice their faith, but they're not allowed to proselytize. They're not allowed to share it in the community. And if they do, they do get arrested, they do get imprisoned. You realize there's a whole lot at stake with just letting people do their own thing. That is not a valid religion. That is not a that's not even a valid ideology, because it logically doesn't hold up. Because you find out when you when you buy to that mentality that everybody can do their own thing, you immediately find out you can't do your thing. You can't talk to people about Jesus. You can't speak the truth in love. You can't do it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. That is really that is kind of the question too. It's like, does it cause people to retreat more, to isolate, to just kind of live in fear, or does it cause people to fight harder? And I mean, I I guess I kind of like lead more to the well, probably the isolation and fear. But you know, I mean sometimes it does cause people to to fight harder too, and to try to get their ideas heard in different ways.
SPEAKER_01:One lesson we can take from what Bob was talking about the condition of society at the time Christianity was just getting started, there would be one I don't know if benefit is quite the right word, or advantage, or or just uh difference to be appreciated in this this nightmare scenario, in that Christians, the ones who value life as as God values it, who say, well, if God says it in the w in his word, that's that's what guides me and and and guides us, the contrasts would be defined a lot better. In a world right now where there's so much grayscale, you know, it's like, well, yeah, I I'm I'm I'm with God on this, but yeah, not so much on that. All that gray area would be eliminated because it would either be black, oh yeah, I'm completely okay with abortion, or a very bright white. No, you know, we we have a uh a value for life that nobody else has, and uh we're willing to stand up and stand out for that. And in a way that can sometimes make it even easier to communicate what you need to communicate, um, because people will understand, oh, this is different. It's not just the same thing with a few extra nuances here and there. It's it's uh completely different there. And contrasts can be helpful. And that was one of the things in in the early church that really made a difference, because people would look at these Christians and say, wow, they they really are different. And they'd see the love and they'd say, I think I want some of that. At least I want to learn more. And uh that that would be something that the Holy Spirit would then allow us to use in a positive, gospel-serving way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that that's that first Peter 3.15, when people and they they ask you for the reason of the hope that you have. You know, Christy, you raised an interesting contrast. You said that some people will maybe isolate themselves and other people will be kind of out there fighting. When I was looking at the these instructions uh for this episode, I was thinking about about that exact point. You know, uh first of all, what will the what would the fighters look like? And would they be more militant? And what would what would pro-life militancy look like? Now, we went through streaks where some of the militants were smoke bombing abortion clinics, and some of the militants uh were shooting abortionists and firebombing abortion clinics, and the simplistic way that people think, they begin to immediately paint the entire pro-life or Christian community with this broad brush that they're all dangerous, they're all out to get us, and and so forth. And so we're gonna we would be characterized by those high-profile ones. You know, I'm I'm reminded of something I read that the uh NBC broadcaster Tom Brokaw wrote when he said about the nature of news. News tends to be the extremes. Those make the news. Nobody's interested in the people who are just doing the same thing and not really making any waves. So if you've got these really strong activists and they're out there, I mean, look at look at the media today. All of us have got opinions on on ice and immigration and all that kind of stuff. We all have opinions on it, but only the ones who are making the noise, they're the ones who are on the news. And yet they they represent a relatively small, minute portion of the entire American population, but they get all of the headlines. And so if you have abortion entirely, you know, free and out there and uh society is bought into it and so forth, the militant ones are going to be characterizing and representing the Christian voice. And um, I'm concerned a little bit about that because the militant voices have never represented us well in the past. But then I'm also concerned about because I I too, Chris, I agree. I think I'd be a lot like you. There's a tendency to be to to be a little concerned. You know, you got families, you got loved ones, you know, during the pandemic, you know, when CLR, and we've talked about, you know, the CLR statement on vaccines and so forth, we didn't say you had to or you shouldn't get it or anything. But the people who didn't agree with us who said you should get it, or the people who didn't agree with us who said it's wrong to get it and so forth, they were threatening. I I was threatened, and I was concerned. Why? Because I watched over my mom and dad living next door. I watched over my family and and our eight children and their grandchildren when they come to visit. And all of a sudden you become concerned for them. And so it makes you want to be quiet. And and I would hope that I wouldn't be, and and maybe at at my age now, you know, I'd probably be more bold. But, you know, the problem is when you are a bold voice saying we need to be loving, we need to be patient, we need to take people where they're at, and so forth, that's not going to attract the attention. You know, the people who are going to attract the attention and make the news hour are going to be the people who are going to try to take the law into their own hands. It seems to be the nature of our sinful sinful selves.
SPEAKER_01:The one thing that I would say in response to to what what Bob was just talking about with the militants and things like that, and and this is not uh I know this, this is I hope this, we didn't see much of that in the early church. We didn't see Christians saying, Oh, you know, we're we're gonna stand up, we're we're gonna fight in the arena, you know, we're we're not gonna allow them to and one of the reasons for that, besides simply the teachings of our faith, was recognition we're we're not in the majority. You know, there you know, i i if we fight back, we're gonna get wiped out, and and that serves nobody. And I I would hope that if it got to the point where this nightmare scenario where uh abortion is uh 100% unrestricted, and Christians find themselves that mu Christian I'll say Christian pro-lifers find themselves that much more in the minority, that more and more of the people who might be inclined to acting out might say, I don't think we can claim anymore that we're the silent, unrecognized majority, and that if all it will take is me standing up and taking this grand uh action to rouse everybody and they're all going to you know stand with us and on our side. I I think that that avenue of thought is going to be closed off more. And uh you know, so my hope would be that uh you know that there'd be less of that performative kind of stuff, uh, and and more of the the serious, reflective and uh uh winsome stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. You know, and one of the things that um uh that kind of stuck with me too, Jeff, was when you talked about just the how these scenarios really do outline the black and white more. And and I think that that is where our current society where I just see a lot of a lot of gray. It just it there's just a lot of gray in kind of our current society too. But you know, also just kind of then merging or kind of getting back into our current society, looking at both of these worlds, like the dream world and the nightmare world, um, as we were calling it. What like what is the benefit maybe of this exercise, or what do both of these were worlds um reveal or show us?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I think um it's a very valuable exercise because I think it calls on all of us uh pro-life Christians to ask ourselves what really is the end game? What are we ultimately trying to accomplish? And uh we want a safe society that the youngest and most defenseless among us uh are safe, cared for, and loved and respected. And and that's a a good thing, that's part of the way we love our neighbor, but ultimately it's we want to uh build the relationships so that they could know Jesus. And uh that really is the end game regardless of the status of abortion in society. And I think when Christians forget the end game, then we just become, you know, so ideologically perfect we're practically useless. I mean, we we argue for these positions, we fight for them, we we strategize, we vote, we referendum, we do all these things, and we get our way, we enjoy uh victories, uh, but then we we miss the point. You know, we won a battle and lost the war. The war is still for the souls of people, and uh that's really what should be foremost on the Christian's mind.
SPEAKER_01:I I'm just gonna say basically ditto to everything uh Bob just said about that, and just add something uh more that we we as Christians really need to remember that whether we end up five years from now, ten years from now, twenty years from now, in either the dream scenario or the nightmare scenario, God is still the Lord of history. That's not to say that everything bad happens, happens because he wanted something bad to happen, but he's still in charge. And if he allows it to happen, either of those scenarios, we can trust that he's got a plan for us. He's got, you know, he he knows those who are speaking his word and those who are not. Um and uh he he's he's looking out for us, and he's not going to leave us alone. So and and he's not gonna leave us without guidance, you know, all these things. I think there's a certain amount of despairing sometimes that that Christians have when they're looking toward the future. Um and that's that's about as far as they imagine it. And we we need to imagine not just, well, this could happen, but say, what would God be doing if this happened? You know, what could I count on from my Lord and Savior if that happened? And uh the more we keep in mind that that in mind, the less frightened we are of the future, and therefore the the better we're going to be able to prepare ourselves and others for whatever future does come.
SPEAKER_00:Ecclesiastes come to mind. You know, we're living for the world. It's no wonder, you know, it's just good it always looks dismal, it always looks depressing, and so forth. Um, we got a far bigger, a far bigger game.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you both for the discussion today, um, and for um all of our listeners too in participating in this exercise and thinking about these different worlds. Uh, if you have any questions on this episode, you can reach us at lifechallenges.us, and we look forward to having you back next time. Thanks a lot. Bye.
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