Faithful Politics with Rick Gundrum

We talk with former Wisconsin State Assembly member Rick Gundrum about what faithful civic engagement looks like when you have to represent a true melting pot of beliefs and still answer to your conscience. We trade stories about pressure, media narratives, and the unglamorous work of serving people with patience, clarity, and a steady trust in God. 

Transcript

A Prayer Before The Results

SPEAKER_00 0:00

On today's episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

I remember the day of the primary for the special election. One of my colleagues came into my office. I was at the on the county board as the chairman. And said, uh, so what do you think? You know, think you got a good chance? I said, well, I don't know, I should have. Well, did you pray? I go, of course. Well then don't worry about it. It's in God's hands. He'll decide. And that took a lot of weight off of my shoulders. I couldn't believe it.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast with Christian Life Resources. Our world today presents people with complicated issues of life, death, marriage, and family, health, and science. It can be a struggle to understand or deal with them. We're here to help by bringing good information and a fresh biblical perspective to these matters and more. Join us now for life challenges.

Meet Rick Gundrum And His Story

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hi, and welcome back. I'm Christa Pochets, and I'm here today with Pastor Bob Fleischman. And we also have a special guest with us today. We have Rick Gundrum joining us. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I'm really excited about uh getting a chance to talk to you today and doing this episode. At the podcast here, we have done quite a few episodes on politics. And we just recently did an episode on voting and how, as a Christian, like, can you vote for candidates that maybe are not pro-life? Or how how do we navigate that? And we've done uh other episodes of that too, just navigating being in a representative form of government. But we have not had anybody on the other side of it, uh a politician, uh, somebody in public service.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

So there goes the neighborhood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

To to come and talk to us and and how you navigate politics and when with your faith and everything to and from that side. And so Bob has known you for a while and has always said, Oh, we got to get Rick on the podcast here.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

So can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into where you are now in in public service, and um and I'm sure our listeners would be fascinated to know your connection with Bob.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Well, um, I was born in Nano, Wisconsin, uh, which is on the northwest edge of the county. The family farm was right on the county line at the five corners. Uh, when I was two, uh, we moved into the big city of Hartford because my dad had gotten a job at uh what later became Chrysler Outboard, but it was West Bend Outboard at the time. He was running the farm for my grandfather, and when my uncle returned from the service, he took over the farm, and my dad took the job in the in the big city. So I grew up in Hartford, uh went to Catholic grade school, went to the public high school, and then I took two years to go to college at uh UWWC, which is no longer, and from there I transferred to UW Oshkosh and got a degree in radio TV film, and that's how my career began. At that time had no inklings of ever being interested in running for political office. I did spend some time in Illinois, uh in Harvard, Illinois, uh Rockford, and Peoria before moving back to Milwaukee and working for FM 106. I was there for 10 years and then finished up my radio career at uh WBWI. Those were the call letters at the time, uh Pure Country 92.5. And then in 2000, I I decided to leave the radio profession because

From Radio Career To Public Service

SPEAKER_02 3:55

I couldn't get my creative license renewed, which doesn't really exist, but they took away all creativity. And uh so I I went out on my own um doing audio and video production and voiceover narrations. And in 2006, oh I I need to back up. I met my wife in 1990. Uh we married in 92. She was the mayor of Mayville, Wisconsin at that time.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

So she got me turned on to politics, especially when we moved to Slinger when there was an opening on the county board. She goes, You need to uh do a better representation of our district. So you run and I uh ran and I won. Uh from there I I also got involved in the Village of Slinger's Board of Trustees. And then in 2018, I had an opportunity to run for uh State Assembly. Did that. I was a four-way primary, I I won that, and and it was a special election, so I filled out that term and then had to turn right around and run again. So I was in constant campaign mode. And actually, once in, I realized it's pretty much constantly campaign mode because it's only a two-year session. And I did that for nine years, and then uh decided this April that I would not seek re-election.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

So and Rick and I met it had to have been, well, you know, I was pastoring over at uh St. Paul, which is where Lois uh is a member, and in Slinger, and that's where I met you. Right. And I I always remember the conversation at the doorway when you were walking out. You say, Do you ever want to get together sometime and talk? And and from there, friendship blossomed.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

And I re I remember that as if it were yesterday, but when we were talking off mic, I look back in my mind and it was about 2006 that we actually met. And I forgot to mention that I grew up a Catholic and and still practice the Catholic uh faith. My wife is a Wells Lutheran at St. Paul's.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Well well, thank you for sharing that. And yes, I can um definitely tell you have a radio voice here. So it'd be fun having you on here. Many many Christians really wrestle with how involved they should be in politics. From your experience, what does a faithful civic engagement look like in today's world?

SPEAKER_02 6:28

I'm finding, you know, or since getting into the State Assembly, there are a lot of people, members that are are very religious, they're very Christian, um, they have Bible studies once a week. And there are some Christians in the assembly that to and Senate that they don't back down, they stay true to their to their beliefs. And um I tend to fall in with that group, much to the chagrin sometimes of leadership. But uh and when I announced that I wasn't running again, my staff was the first to tell me that they were very uh impressed that I never backed down uh under pressure. And I even got that from colleagues uh that I didn't even know that well, I would say. We always set a good example, and so I'm very proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Aaron Powell Yeah, like how I mean how strong is the pressure?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Well, depending on the um bill, the legislation, it can it can be very, very uh pressurized, for lack of a better term, I guess. But I I never buckled from day one and it got to the point where my name would come up in vain, I was told at at uh executive meetings. Uh what about what about this Gundrum guy? Now forget it. Yeah we're wasting our breath.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

And serving serving in the political role is hard because as a Roman Catholic, if you had uh a district which was a hundred percent Roman Catholic, it it goes very easy, but you don't have a district like that. I mean, not only do you have you know other conservative Christians, but then you have other liberal Christians, and then you have non-Christian religions, and then you have atheists and so forth. It's the old um melting pot. How do you legislate a melting pot? And um I th I think that that's probably what for me nurtured our friendship because you know, I you know, I'm I'm a Wells pastor, I I head up a group, and you know, a lot of times uh you've got people who are on the same page that you're working with. When once I started helping out at Concordia University and stuff, then then you step out of the out

Holding The Line Under Pressure

SPEAKER_04 8:40

of the pot and into the fire. Uh but you really are in that in a in a legislature. And uh that that's why, like when I think when you're saying that sometimes the leadership gets upset with you, yeah, the other side, your opponents uh definitely would be upset with you. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yes, very much so. And uh we we had some liberal um socialist, they're proud to say that they're socialists uh that would not say the prayer that we would say to open up the session and would not um uh recite the um Pledge of Allegiance with us. And and in fact, uh for a while some would be talking to each other while the prayer was going on, you know, and they weren't sitting right next to each other. So they were told that if you want to do that, that's fine, but stay out of the chamber until we've completed that portion of business. And so that's that's what happens now. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

So even at that level.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah. You know, I think um, you know, and Bob too was talking about how in a representative form of government too, you are representing uh a group of people and there are Catholics, Protestants, atheists, all these different people. How do you kind of come at it a little bit in terms of, okay, I have to represent all these people, but I also have my own set of beliefs and my own set of priorities?

SPEAKER_02 10:09

When I first got elected to the assembly, I created different focus groups or whatever. Uh, but I had a list that I would work from and there'd be a topic that would be for discussion and maybe become a uh a bill. I had a law enforcement group of all, you know, the sheriff and the uh police chiefs in in my district. So f when a bill came forward, I wasn't surprising them. Uh and also I could get input. Not a good idea, don't don't go down that path, type of thing, or oh no, this would really, really help. And I did the same thing with um clergy, um a cath Catholic priest, um um Bob. I had a Pentecostal minister that I would reach out to, and others. So I would run ideas by them, especially the abortion uh uh bills that would come forward. Um we had a um a bill that was gonna reduce it, I think it's 20 days now. Uh 20 days, 20 weeks, um down to 14 weeks. And every clergy that I talked to said, well, I suppose if we have to compromise, you know, that's that's something we could do. And uh so I was gonna go against my my beliefs because I'm pro-life, no exceptions, until I learned that the governor said, I don't care if it's eighteen weeks or the full nine months, uh I'm not signing it. And I thought I'm not going to give up my stance on pro-life, no exceptions to have uh wasn't gonna trade a vote for a for a baby's life. So uh I I went against the advice of the people I reached out to in that situation. But um uh and I I didn't have any any regrets for voting the way I did. We had a uh I call it the pill bill, uh uh where the pill can be administered through a drugstore without uh a doctor's authorization. And uh I I just couldn't get myself to to vote in favor of that. Uh I thought there were a lot of unanswered potential problems that weren't addressed. And um so I w there were others that voted no on that, but uh I I just couldn't get myself to do it. And I I got a little pressure on that. You're doing this for your colleagues who are in more challenged uh districts. And so it would really help if you'd come along with us on that, you know. And uh and and I get that, that's very important, but I just didn't think that that was something uh I wanted to take on and be sorry for later.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Aaron Powell I always thought that was one of the dilemmas that you faced because relatively speaking, our our area is conservative, and not all of your co-workers in the assembly were from such areas, but somehow they got uh elected, but it by a slimmer margin or something like that. And so for them, they have to walk a finer line and and it gets more challenging. But my own personal philosophy was that a lot of times you got elected for who you were. I elected you because you have judgment and you use what I think is good judgment. And if you had decided uh in a certain predicament to to maybe settle for a little bit less than the full thing, it may not have been the my perspective on it, my my position for it. But in the end, you know, I I look at who you are and who all you ran against, and then I would elect the candidate that uh whose judgment I respect the most. And I always thought that a lot of people lose sight of that because you get into tough areas. And I know that based on conversations we've had over the years, not not all of the issues are are simple. If you do this, you make these people mad. And if you do that, you make those people mad. And and then you've told me they write very nasty things on your Facebook page. Or emails. Or emails, yeah. It's hard. And you know, we've had I I you know, I've known other uh legislators. We've you and I have talked about some of them that I know that are part of our church body who have been on the legislature and who are not now. And um some of them, you know, really Russell with some of them will warm out. I mean, it because you they didn't want to compromise who they were, but at the same time, part of it is compromise. I mean, it's you're trying to incrementally make your way along, and the other side is trying to incrementally pull you along. And yeah, how do you how do you divide that? Uh what what role did your faith play in all of this? I I mean I I know that you're you're highly principled. I mean, that's that's also probably a foundation of our friendship, but how does it guide you? How did it how did it steer you to get involved? I mean, there were also 500 things you could have done instead of going into the legislature.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Sure. Um many years ago, uh when I was about twenty-six years old, I was in the Well, that many years ago.

SPEAKER_04 15:15

I was uh in a Rick Rick and I are the same age we realized so long.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

At twenty-six, uh I was in a very serious car accident, and many people didn't think I was going to survive, but I survived. I was in the hospital for three weeks, three days in intensive care. I remember none of that until I finally came to with all these tubes in me. And I had a lot of time to just lay there and think. And I doctors would come in and tell me how how severe it was, and but I was out of the woods, you know, that type of thing. And I thought, wow, God wanted me to stay here

Representing A Melting Pot District

SPEAKER_02 15:50

because I could have He could have just taken me. And so I need to be more loyal to him. I decided at that point I would go down whatever path he would send me. So didn't get into politics right away from that point, but just situations like in in church, I I was debating whether or not to run for the position and the homily that day was about how it's okay to take chances because if you don't, things will pass you by and you'll regret it later. And uh so on the way home, my wife uh said, uh, hmm, I guess you'll be running. Because that was it was like that was directed exclusively to me, even though it wasn't. So I um I decided to run. But I I was encouraged by other individuals at that time, and I'm like, maybe, maybe not. And then I also attended a seminar on uh business growth and development, and that kind of same message was given that day too, that uh if you don't take chances when they're there, you may regret it going forward, you know, type of thing. So that's um how I made my decision to run. Uh that was the final decision, uh the the homily on a Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

So now do you um you don't have to name names, uh but uh but you can. But you can. Especially now that you're retiring out of it. So yeah. So it doesn't matter. No. Are there uh legislators uh either on the state level or even on the national level that you found particularly inspiring, encouraging, uh somebody whose style you liked?

SPEAKER_02 17:45

And again, you don't have to name names, but I mean what what is it about them or uh Well uh on the national level I I got uh to sp spend some time with Jim Sensenbrenner at his town halls.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

And uh And he used to you know he used to show up at CLR events.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

He showed up at a lot of things. Yeah. And I just remember he'd be out glad-handing and that's where I got my uh motivation to follow suit on those types of things too. Um I uh I you know, parades, you name it. And another one um was Glenn Growthman.

SPEAKER_04 18:19

Who also showed up at CLS.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Both of those um individuals uh s stayed and held firm on their beliefs and uh weren't afraid to I I remember one town hall the um the left-leaning people would show up in droves and they would grill uh Sents and Brenner constantly on a on a topic, and and he'd give it he'd give them answers. And uh this one lady wouldn't give up. And he goes, ma'am, I gave you my answer. It's an answer you didn't like, but that's what it is. So we're moving on.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, no, I I think um one of the things I wanted to ask about too was just maybe the difference in local politics versus your experience on in the state assembly. Um, you know, what what is it? I mean, is there a big difference in that?

SPEAKER_02 19:13

And what there there are differences, but uh a lot of business gets done the same way at all the levels. And uh, you know, and when I first got into the legislature, I'm thinking, we're one big family, but it's all fragmented. And and and and on all levels I would notice too. Uh let's say, Bob, you uh you were for a certain referendum or or a bill, so you figure, oh, then he's gonna like my bill. No, not necessarily. And and there are other influences and a lot of people will come to serve in a uh position, local, uh federal, state, uh with a goal in mind. And a lot of it sometimes is self self-deserving, you know, something. If if I get on the city council, I might be able to uh get rid of that building I can't stand near the park, you know, type of thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

Especially on small local politics, uh that happens. I've I've always been struck by our conversations where you would say, you know, some of the terrible things that people would write you and say to you and so forth. And how sometimes it's hard to even be in public where somebody spots you and then if somebody's listening to the podcast and they're thinking I'd like to make a bigger difference, give them a realistic view of some of the compromises you had to make in terms of privacy and so forth, and and then also some of the assurance.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Um well, as far as I call them nasty grams, I look at that as entertainment, especially on social media. Um I would never respond uh to something nasty because that would just fuel the fire. Yeah. There are other people that usually jump in and uh really go after them and let them go back and forth. So for me that's while it's it's not um you know, it's nasty, it's entertaining. And one of uh one of my uh constituents responded to somebody who's always constantly, you know, um today is national take your kid fishing day, you know. And then they come back with something that had nothing to do with fishing or kids. And so um this one guy, he'll come back with stuff. But one one time he said, uh, okay, here's the deal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now go back in your basement where you belong. Yes. Yeah, sometimes you don't have to be your own defender. All right. But uh as far as people angry uh and email or call, I would always return the calls or go to their house. I had a friend. Who moved down to Florida and he's like, Oh, you shouldn't be in politics. They're gonna kill you, you know. And so um I tell him, Yeah, I went to this guy's house and I'd I'd read the email and oh you you took your gun, huh? And I go, No, I don't have a gun. Oh, geez. But um one guy uh was real livid about something I can't remember. So I came to his house, knocked on the door, and he comes and goes, Yeah. And I told him who I was, who? I told him again, you know, and he goes, Oh, yeah. So he comes out on the porch and he sees his neighbor, Charlie, mowing the lawn or something, and he goes, Oh, Charlie, you know. He walks off the porch and starts talking to Charlie. He didn't talk to me.

Nasty Emails And Face To Face Calls

SPEAKER_02 22:40

So what was he doing? He didn't have an issue, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 22:44

Right. Well, I think you and I once were talking and said that one problem with social media is that it venerates the one thing that everybody has, and that is an opinion. And it doesn't have to be a good opinion, it doesn't have to be a factual opinion. Right. Just an opinion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

And then also I call people that sent nasty emails about a topic, and uh they were completely different when you talk to them. Nice as could be. And oh, oh, I d because I I'm on your side. I I supported this and this and this, but the governor wouldn't sign it. Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. You know?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, I think you know that that really does lean into just the social media. I people just do not see the other person on the other end as a person. And so I I mean it is uh kind of neat to just hear that you tried to actually talk to people and have conversations with them, and then some of that just that animosity kind of naturally dissipates when you are face to face.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Right after the 2020 presidential election, yeah. Uh people were livid um about uh the the cheating and stuff. And so I believe it was common sense citizens had a meeting and requested that all the representatives from the area show up. And uh, they're they're throwing hand grenades at us and and pitchforks flaming, you know. And finally one of the people that was very uh vocal said, Well, I I will say this out of all of you sitting up there, only one of you ever get gets back to me. No matter what the topic is. Uh one of my staffers was with me, and I'm thinking, I hope he's got some answers for me. And and she goes, and that one person is Representative Gundrum. So I I leaned over to my staffer and said, Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

So so if somebody was running or or interested in uh running for office or wanting to make a difference, would you encourage them?

SPEAKER_02 24:56

I mean, if if they had good judgment and if they were a person I I thought could could do the job. In fact, I tried to recruit a few people, um, and um one didn't want to do it because the wife said no, even though the family was supportive. And another individual just said, I don't have the time. He would have been great. And another one said, Well, I just bought another business, and so now's not a good time, maybe in the future.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

So Was it were you scared when you decided to do it for the first time?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Or um well yeah, to some degree. I remember the day of the primary for the special election. One of my colleagues came into my office. I was at the on the county uh board, I was the chairman, and said, uh, so what what do you think? You know, and you you think you got a good chance? And I said, Well, I don't know, I should have, you know. Well, did you pray? And I go, Of course. Yeah. Well then don't worry about it. It's in God's hands. He'll decide. And that took a a lot of weight off of my shoulders. I can't believe it.

SPEAKER_04 26:03

You know, the role of a legislator is to serve people. And uh I think a lot of times when you cause one of the things that uh I our friendship is built on the fact that I was always impressed with Rick's desire to serve. You know, you have to put up with some stuff, but in the end, you're trying to help everybody, you know, because not every piece of legislation is going to benefit you, but it benefits people in general. And I think that um it comes from a strong Christian base.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yeah. Yeah. I I kind of wanted to just ask too. You talked about how the state assembly too, like maybe isn't necessarily chummy. Everyone gets along and that type of thing, a divided family. So I think one of the things that frustrates a lot of people with politics is that people kind of tend to feel like that just bipartisanship is dead. Like there, you just you can't go across the aisles anymore and and agree on things. What is your take on that? And is there hope in politics as we move forward with some of that?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Well, believe it or not, uh a majority of the bills that we pass and get signed into law are bipartisan. The the ones that make it seem like nothing ever gets done is the ones that the media takes up, the the controversial things. I w one of the I think it might have been the first floor session I I was at. People were going after each other and uh you know, saying nasty things about one another, and I'm thinking like, ooh. And I went in the back to get a cup of coffee, and I look around, and these two guys that are going at it are yucking

Bipartisanship Versus The Media Narrative

SPEAKER_02 27:50

it up and talking about their latest fishing trip. So a lot of that is showbiz. And and also, too, the sessions would drag on and drag on until the TV cameras started getting turned off, unplugged and wrapped up, and and they leave. Then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, we start you know, taking up bills and passing them. But we have the long debate times while the TV stations are there.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

Tom Brokoff, the NBC newscaster, wrote a book, and one of it he said is he said, you know, a lot of people don't understand that the news doesn't cover the routine, it covers the sensational, uh the outlandish, the unusual. Because he said, nor normal people aren't interested in mundane stuff. And so I and I always thought that, you know, when once news kind of drifted into the entertainment division, you know, of uh of the networks, then we were in trouble. And that's exactly what happens. And that's why, you know, to have a legislator say, yeah, you know, there's a we kind of all agree on this and everything. That's not news, you know. Right. But if you think, you know, and the other guy's a loser for disagreeing with me on it. No, that will cover, why? Because maybe they'll hit each other. You know, that that kind of a feeling, and that's uh which is unfortunate because I think it it dramatically distorts the picture. I I I know when we've when we've talked, uh you'll describe just things that take place in the legislature, and I'm going, oh, that's not the impression you get from television.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a really good point, too, because right now just the picture painted is this very bleak picture. No one gets along, everyone is just so ugly and mean to each other and that type of thing. So it is maybe nice to know that that's not the the way it is. And is there something like that gives you hope for the future when it comes to politics or even just Chris uh Christian's influence on politics?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

I am seeing some potential change uh with younger generations, uh college age. Uh I have uh an intern who um attends UW Madison, and uh he's also I can't think of what it's called, the person that is in charge of the floor in your dorm room.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Oh, the RA. RA, yeah. I was an RA.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Okay, all right. Um so he has a lot of engagement and he says he can see a lot of positive things coming from that. I mean it's not going to change overnight, but uh a lot of young individuals are afraid to say something because they don't want to get an F in one of their classes because they disagree with the professor. Closet conservatives maybe is a term that could be used. And then you have groups like the Young Republicans, and I can't think of the name of the other group that's uh very young that uh goes into districts and campaigns for for candidates and things. Their numbers are growing in what Charlie Kirk did. Uh he kind of set the path moving forward. Uh it's unfortunate that he's not here with us to, you know, continue, but the people behind him have picked up the torch.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Well, thank you for joining us today. We we really appreciate it. This has been very interesting perspective to and uh it's a great chance to get to talk to you uh about all this today. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

Well you're very welcome. And people are wrong about this. Some of you politicians are actually nice people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

One of the one of the candidates, new candidates, met with um a couple uh people in the leadership, and he calls me up and goes, Well, they

Hope For Politics And Younger Voters

SPEAKER_02 31:40

weren't bad at all. What kills me is people that don't know the individuals hate them and uh you know just want to sling mud at them, whatever they can do. And well, have you ever met this individual? Of course not. You know, well, then how do you know? I just know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Yeah. Well, that's we've all as I always say, we become so ideologically perfect that we just begin to ignore everything else, including reality sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah. Well, thank you very much for joining us. And we thank all of our listeners too for joining us today. And if you have any questions on this topic or any others, you can reach us at lifechallenges.us. We'll see you back next time. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Thank you for joining us for the Life Challenges Podcast of Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it, and sharing it with friends. We're here to help. So if you have questions on today's topic or other life issues, you can submit them as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes at lifechallenges.us, or email us to podcast at ChristianLiferesources.com. You can find past episodes and other valuable information at lifechallenges.us, so please check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit Christianliferesources.com. They gotta give you wisdom, love, strength, and peace in Christ for every life challenge.