In this episode, Paul breaks down the dating term "Needy" so you can identify what it looks like and steer clear of individuals who display it.
When it comes to getting back on the dating horse for Boomers and Gen Xers, Carol in the movie I'll See You in My Dreams provides a good look at what it's like. Bill demonstrates both a good old-fashioned take-the-lead attitude and the downside of coming on too strong. This movie has many dating and relationship messages for the 50 Daters age group.
Is breaking up by text message a good idea? It depends on the situation. Men often think they're in a relationship when they've only been out on a few dates. Paul discusses how that applies to this episode's dating and relationship question.
Is it better to arrange a coffee date or to go for alcoholic drinks on that first meetup? Much of it has to do with the phase of dating you're currently in and with your confidence level. Good dating skills take practice. Paul explains how to put yourself in a position to easily work with either drinks or coffee.
Everyone has had those Fridays where things are looking good going into the weekend, but then everything falls apart. Paul walks you through one bad weekend with a canceled date, ghostings, deletions, and incomplete phone calls. Knowing what a bad online dating weekend looks like and what the silver linings are will keep you from feeling so bad when it happens to you.
Psychology Today Article: The Value of "Sober Dating"
50 Dates at 50 Website: https://50datesat50.com/
The transcription below is provided for your convenience. Please excuse any mistakes that the automated service made in translation.
Episode 6 - A Glass of Wine on the First Date?
Paul Nelson: Hello 50 Daters, and welcome to episode six, titled Do I need a glass of wine on the first date?.
In the previous episode, episode five, I went over what real online dating numbers look like with the dating report from September and how getting ghosted in two out of every three dating app conversations means you're actually doing quite well.
Today I'm going to take you back to the month of April, six months earlier. I'm going to give you an example of the occasional online dating weekend, where everything looks very promising going into it, with 12 different interactions, and how everything can completely fall apart by Monday morning.
By the end of this episode, you'll know what an epic online dating failure weekend looks like. And while it can be completely demoralizing, you'll know what the silver lining takeaways will be when this happens, which will be more often than you think.
Next up, we're going to define what the dating term Needy means. We'll review the senior's dating and relationship movie I'll See You in My Dreams. We're going to take a closer look at breaking up by text with a listener question submitted through the website. Our main Potpourri topic will be on the pros and cons of having a glass of wine or a drink on the first date.
If you like what you hear, please take a moment and click on subscribe. I don't want you missing out on making any of your date nights more memorable.
So now, 50 Daters, let's start turning those dating busts into dating bests.
Paul Nelson: Glossary term for this episode is Needy. Someone who is Needy is a person in a dating relationship who requires an annoying amount of attention, to the point of becoming repulsive. This mostly affects men. Signs of neediness include clingy behavior, such as constantly texting or calling, getting upset when their partner doesn't quickly respond to their text messages, being unable to do anything without their partner, refusing to let their partner do anything without them, attempting to isolate their partner, manufacturing drama, creating ultimatums, and continuously monitoring their partner's social media accounts.
This is typical Nice Guy behavior - easy to spot in a man when he attempts to lock a woman down and create an exclusive dating relationship within the first few dates.
Paul Nelson: This episode's Chick-Flick movie review is I'll See You In My Dreams. This was released in 2015, and here's our movie synopsis.
Carol, played by Blythe Danner, is a widow in her retirement years who has been avoiding the dating scene ever since the death of her husband 20 years ago. She leads a comfortable yet predictable life on her own. One day, upon discovering a rat in her house, she is introduced to Lloyd, the new pool guy making his rounds.
Lloyd confirms the rat is no longer in the house, and a friendship develops between them. Lloyd also helps Carol rediscover her passion for performing music through karaoke.
Her friends then convince her to attend a senior citizen speed dating event held at their local retirement community. After a frustrating experience, Carol crosses paths with Bill, played by Sam Elliott, for a second time. He asks for her phone number. Things between Carol and Bill heat up quickly as she finds herself in uncharted territory.
The 50 Dates at 50 take: I really like this movie. It has both quality acting and a good storyline. There are not a lot of movies out there on seniors and dating, and this one does a good job of capturing what it's like to date in the 50 Dater age group, especially when it comes to dealing with the death of friends and loved ones.
It further reminds us that if we put ourselves out there, we'll develop new friendships and find romance even in our golden years. When one pursues their passion, opportunities begin to open up. In Carol's case, it's singing.
The movie also addresses not worrying about what other people think of us.
Now while there's obvious tension between Lloyd and Carol, they have what I would consider to be the closest thing to a friendship that a man and woman can have.
Why do 50 Daters need to watch this? Let me begin.
Guys, Bill conducts himself with a level of confidence that is very attractive. He does things the old-fashioned way by making a phone call to ask Carol out. If you want to make a good impression, you'll need to ask a woman out vocally.
Because this is a movie, things have to move fast. As a result, Bill does come on way too strong. In real life, he could not get away with many of the things that he does, especially on a first or second date.
Now, if you listen past this point, I'm giving you a spoiler alert, so you may want to watch the movie first. But if not, let me proceed.
Here are the major mistakes that Bill made. First was surprising a woman with a first date location. You just can't get away with that, especially in online dating, or you're getting to know somebody for the first time; you can't pull a surprise date.
The second mistake he made was taking a woman out on a private boat for a first date. That's just not going to happen in real life, especially in online dating. First dates should be meetups for coffee or drinks and last no longer than 60 to 90 minutes.
Pulling the passionate good night kiss move on the first date? Hey Bill, slow it down.
Then we have asking a woman out at the end of the first date. When a guy does this, it removes the romance and anticipation and comes off as trying to lock a woman down. It may initially appear attractive and confident, but it actually demonstrates a level of insecurity.
Next up is Bill leaves way too many messages on her phone. Two or more messages in a row demonstrates a level of neediness and insecurity.
The next big mistake is gifting of flowers on the second date? Really? I mean, what happened to the candy? This is a token Nice Guy move and will not work in your favor in real life. It comes off as an attempted quid pro quo.
Next item I noticed was, going back to the boat on a second date. This probably works in Hollywood, but not in real life. Initial dates need to be fun activity dates. Bill is telegraphing that boat dates will be the weekly norm.
The next mistake is bringing up exes in conversation. Date conversation needs to be kept positive and fun. You can talk about your exes in a limited way a few more dates in, but not in the first initial dates.
Next issue I see is Bill talking marriage at the end of the second date. In real life, Bill would have been doomed by doing this. This is a serious subject, and it has no business being brought up this early. Period. It ends up pushing Carol away, as it would with any woman 99.9% of the time. So guys, don't do this.
Bill again asks Carol out, right, again, at the end of the second date. This is another no-no.
Bill's next mistake was talking about spending all of his retirement money on his boat. Now, he's trying to communicate that he does not care what others think about him, but this also demonstrates financial irresponsibility.
My next point is failing to manscape. Now I respect Sam Elliott. He's a great actor from an era when lots of hair was fashionable. Just look at photos from Woodstock, for example.
Sam is a very attractive man, and he can get away with just about anything because of his status. That said, his chest hair in the bedroom scene is in significant need of manscaping. The Yeti look may work for his generation, but Boomers and Gen X-ers, we've got to keep our body hair properly managed.
Gals, by putting herself out there, Carol creates her own luck. Bill is a very confident man and he makes for a great romance story character. However, in real life, any man that invites you to an all-day date on a private boat out to sea definitely does not have dinner and discussion on his mind. Additionally, if a man admits to taking his retirement savings and blowing them all on a boat, it's not a good sign for his management of money going down the road.
Now there's nothing wrong with living it up, but it's all about balance and living within your means. Who knows? Maybe Bill knows what's going to happen and makes his decisions due to that.
Paul Nelson: Question: My girlfriend broke up with me by text message. She said it was because she didn't want a relationship right now. This came out of nowhere, so I texted her to see if we could talk in person, and she hasn't responded. I've since texted her some more and left voicemails. I really need to talk to her. Should I just leave it alone or keep trying to contact her and see why she isn't responding? Mark, 49, from Los Angeles.
Answer: Mark, you need to drop it and move on immediately. The clues in your question tell me it's likely that the two of you have a completely different definition of what a girlfriend is. You're exhibiting textbook Nice Guy behavior, and you probably came on too strong by professing your feelings for her.
Since she broke up with you by text, she either has no class or you've only been dating for a very short while. Most likely, it's the latter.
It's very common for men to think they have a girlfriend when they've only been out on two or three dates. If she dumped you in this timeframe, doing it by text is okay by me. Anything more than three dates, and she should at least talk to you.
However, either way, you need to get over it. I don't blame her for not wanting to talk in person. Like most men, you'll probably beg her for another chance and this is unattractive behavior. You may even end up getting mad and creating a scene, which is also common, and this is what leads most women to avoid in-person breakups.
The truth is Mark, that the only way to really understand what you did is to grow from being a Nice Guy into being a Good Guy. Growth is an ugly thing to work through. But in the end, you'll laugh at yourself when you look back and you'll be glad that you made the effort.
Personal growth allows you to make mistakes, learn from them, and not repeat them. The 50 Dates at 50 website has plenty of reference materials to help you be a better dater and a Good Guy.
Having the Abundance Mentality is another crucial step for you. I realize this is cliché, but you need to understand that there are a whole lot of fish in the sea. What you need to do is get out there and start dating some other gals, not just one, but several.
Please remember that most of the women that you meet in a dating situation will not be the one. Embrace this and use it as a chance to grow, to become a better dater.
Dating several women at a time, as long as these are meetup dates, or sticking your toe in the waters dates, is actually very easy, and it's not as time-consuming as you think. The key in a lot of these situations is just slowing things down.
Since most dating situations don't work out, this gives you a good practice, so you'll have your act together when the right one comes along. This is called Dating With Purpose, not to be confused with serial dating.
Gals, it's important to note that these points also apply to women. Don't be afraid to date more than one guy at a time in your quest to find the right one. And when I say dating more than one guy at a time, I'm talking about meetup dates and first, second, and third dates, sticking your toe in the water.
Paul Nelson: In this episode's Potpourri segment, I ask the question, "Do you need a glass of wine on that first date?"
It goes without saying that when you meet someone for the first time, especially in online dating, a glass of liquid courage can go a long way for helping the conversation to flow. The problem with liquid courage is that it can easily become an inescapable crutch in your first date routine.
I can personally attest to this. When I got back on the dating horseback in my early fifties, I initially focused on coffee dates. They're simple to set up. It's easy to find a Starbucks or similar establishment in most cities. However, caffeine can inadvertently ratchet up the pace of the conversation.
Eventually, I switched to meeting up for a brew or a mixed drink, and the conversations flowed much more smoothly. I used the "Meet for Drinks" formula for a few years, and it worked pretty well. It even became its own test. The person I met for the date could easily disqualify themselves by exceeding the common sense two-drink limit, which happened on several occasions.
On one particular date, I arrived at the agreed-upon location 10 minutes early only to find that my date had already finished her first drink and was working on her second. Needless to say, I kept the meetup short and moved on from there.
In the Psychology Today, blog article titled, The Value of Sober Dating the author discusses a survey that stated that 36.4% of singles drink before going out. On top of that, 50% drank an average of two or three drinks during the date. Yikes! How can anybody make a reasonable decision about someone's dating potential under those circumstances?
It makes sense to keep it to one drink on an acquaintanceship meeting or first date meetup - just enough for a little courage, but not enough for you to start getting stupid.
The first meetup date should be kept to 45 minutes to an hour in length, 90 minutes max. In the past, I've had many first-date conversations where I've consumed a couple of drinks over three hours. When a first meetup date goes that long with a couple of drinks involved, I've ended up putting my foot in my mouth and disqualified myself from getting a second date on several occasions.
As you work your way back into the dating pool, you're going to go through different phases and you'll learn what eventually works best for you. As I mentioned earlier, I started with coffee dates. This exposed the fact that I needed to work on my conversational skills. Having a drink or two covered that up. However, I ended up missing out on meeting several quality women who didn't drink.
As my conversation skills progressed, having a drink became optional. At this point, things came full circle as coffee dates started to become normal again.
One of the most significant advantages to coffee dates is that both men and women can stack or schedule them to meet a couple of different people in one afternoon or an evening. Just schedule 90 minutes for a meetup, a 30-minute break, and 90 minutes for the next meetup.
You can't stack meetup dates when alcohol is involved. Additionally, after a coffee date, the evening's still open for you to do things when you get home.
Me personally, I use this time to learn new songs for the band I'm in when I get home, or I get some reading in, or I get some writing done for the blog. That's difficult to do if you're tired from having a drink earlier.
So alcohol or no alcohol? Most of us could use help with our conversational skills. The easiest way to learn and improve is by setting up regular weekly dates. If you really want to supercharge the process a few speed dating events can really improve your confidence.
Paul Nelson: Thoughtfulness. There are days when I wonder if it's out there in the online dating world. Let's ponder the level of thoughtfulness on display by some in the dating pool regarding what I talked about earlier in this episode, on what an epic online dating failure weekend looks like when things look really promising going into the weekend, and where it completely falls apart by Monday morning.
So, Let me cut to the chase. Here's the mid-April week that this took place. Three dating platforms were being used: Bumble, Coffee Meets Bagel, and the match.com legacy website.
So, So, let me start with interaction number one. This is on Match. Third date was lined up. The gal canceled. She said she'd made a connection with somebody else. In my discussions with her, she had been online less than three weeks. I'm somewhat suspicious that this gal might've still been married. Per her request, we had to meet at distant, out-of-the-way locations, heavy use of sunglasses, and she was concerned about running into anyone she knew.
Interaction number two. This one's on Match, also. Funny conversation started. I asked if she was comfortable moving the message exchange to a phone call. Then the conversation stalled and then, I was deleted the next time we went on and looked the next morning.
Interaction number three: Coffee Meets Bagel. Good conversation was going. Phone call lined up. Then the call was canceled by the gal. She sent me a text message saying that she was too busy.
Interaction number four: Coffee Meets Bagel. Conversation was initiated by the gal. She complimented my profile, my positive attitude, and good pictures, then explained that I was not her type and she would not date me, but nonetheless was very impressed with my overall profile and how young I looked for my age. Then she ghosted me.
Just so you 50 Daters are aware, I get profile compliments at least a couple of times a week. On many meetups, the women are surprised that I look just like my pictures and in many cases, they're suspicious that my pictures are not current. Most folks think I'm 10 to 15 years younger than my actual age.
Interaction number five: Coffee Meets Bagel. This was a mutual match and she mentions that she's looking forward to traveling when lockdown lifts. I asked her where her first destination on her post COVID travel list is, and you guessed it, I got ghosted.
Interaction number six: Coffee Meets Bagel. A good conversation is going here through the message app. A mutual phone call is set up. She's not available for the call. She texted me later that we could talk tomorrow but was very, very, very busy, and could not commit to a specific time. When they're that busy, I just move on. It's
It's very important, guys and gals, that when you set up a phone call, That... In our age group, you have to be respectful of other people's time, and you can't play the, "Oh, just call me sometime Saturday or sometime Sunday." We can't play those games.
Interaction number seven, on Bumble. Good conversation going, then deleted me before I even had a chance to ask for the phone number.
Interaction number eight: Bumble. Conversation pending. Next time I checked, I was deleted in less than eight hours.
Interaction number nine: Bumble. Conversation pending, deleted in less than four hours on that one.
Interaction 10: Bumble. Conversation started. Ghosted.
Interaction number 11: Bumble. Good conversation started. Asked if she was comfortable moving our conversation to a phone call. I got deleted.
Interaction number 12: Bumble. Good conversation started. Asked if she was comfortable moving our conversation to a phone call. Accepted, but not available for the phone call at the setup time, and then I was ghosted.
These are the dating realities coming out of COVID in Southern California. So the over 12 results Are, despite having a good profile, the profile and pictures that I have are what get me all the mutual swipes to begin with.
So here are the dating takeaway realities from the 12 for donut weekend.
Point one. COVID appears to have made online dating, especially with apps, into a form of entertainment. Many men and women are sitting at home and they're bored with nothing to do. This continues to be a problem still to this day, as I record this podcast in October of 2021.
We all need to remember that online dating requires thick skin, and understanding that rejection is your friend. Even with the many vaccinations that are now taking place, in April, converting one out of 10 interactions to a meetup date was a real challenge.
What causes deletions for no reason at all? Many daters are frustrated and go through a regular Cleaning of the Slate. They delete or punish everyone in their dating queue due to a bad experience or behavior of just one of the people they're interacting with. This is especially true if the person they're interacting with, that gave them the bad experience, they were really interested in meeting. If you get deleted for no reason at all, this is usually what's taking place.
I'm aware of many online daters who end up cleaning their slate after they get let down by one or two of the people they're really interested in. I've gotten caught up in this myself in the past, and have actually been part of the problem. Today though, I've learned to let things play out.
Most of us would be pretty upset by the lack of success in a weekend where you're going 0 for 12. And I'll admit, it's obviously disappointing. However, a lot of this depends on your frame of mind.
Here's some of the silver lining takeaways for the weekend where everything falls apart.
Reality one is The 3-1-1 Rule: the process of elimination is working. It's weeding out the pretenders and those online that are using this medium out of boredom or for entertainment. You got to remember that those that ghost you, are generally not serious in the slightest bit anyway.
I could show you several very effective messages that would quickly re-engage or reunite a conversation with somebody that's ghosting you, but now what you're doing is, you're attracting someone who's there for entertainment.
We don't want to do that. It's a complete waste of time. I mean, I've done it, and it's actually kind of kind of fun sometimes, but conversations never finish or pan out. The same ghosting effect will happen because you're getting into a cute conversation, but they're really interested in somebody else.
If they delete or ghost you because they're uncomfortable moving the conversation to a phone call, then they're not serious about actually meeting. If they agree to a call, but don't make themselves available for the call, they'll end up displaying the same behavior in some other form down the road if you continue to pursue them.
Please remember this, and this is extremely important. When you cross paths with a good mutual match, or some people will call it the right one, things suddenly get very easy. You won't have to push so hard. You don't have to work so hard at the interaction. The interaction just normally flows.
This one, 12 for donut weekend, displays examples of, in my case, women I would not choose to go out with. If they can't have a conversation and make themselves available for a scheduled call that they agreed to, do you think they'll even show up for the meetup? And if they do show up, will they be reasonably on time? Will they participate in the conversation on the date? The point here is the process of elimination is working.
I've only invested about five to 15 minutes in each interaction, with the exception of the date cancellation, where I spent a few hours on the first two dates.
Remember 50 Daters, you're going to have some rough weeks, just like I had in April. And I've had many previous and I've had several since. So. Keep the faith. And remember, we're here to support you.
That's it for today's episode, and I'm going to leave you with this little bit of random dating humor from laffgaff.com. My girlfriend dated a clown right before she met me. I've got some really big shoes to fill.
Until next time.