142.5 - Which Service Is Worse? Cop & Firefighter Twins: Stuart and Steve Littlefield, Part 2

Today we're coming back to our interview with identical twin first responders Stuart and Steve Littlefield.  Stuart is thirty-year cop, on the SWAT team and also a homicide detective; Steve is the thirty year firefighter.  Both worked at the same time in the same city, my home of KCK.  Today we're going to to talk about a couple of dramatic critical incidents they were involved in and also answer the question of which service is healthier and which one is worse.  

Hey Chaplain Episode 142 Part Two

Music is by DJ Williams

Tags:

Police, Fire, Accident, Barricade, Crime, Culture, Danger, House Fire, Injury, Mental Health,  Murder, Risk, Rivalry, Shooting, SWAT, Kansas City, Kansas

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

My name is Chaplin Deborah Fontez. I'm the senior chaplain in Sacramento, California. And thank you for listening to Hey Chaplin Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Welcome to Hey Chaplin. My name is Jared Altic, and I'm a chaplain with the police department. The Hey Chaplin Podcast is about talking to police officers who say, Hey Chaplin, I've got a story to tell and some hard-earned wisdom to share. From the LAPD to Scotland Yard, the guests on Hey Chaplin are sharing their wisdom and experience with you so that you don't have to learn everything the hard way. When a police officer listens to Hey Chaplin for the first time, I'd like them to be able to find the information about the show and see a lot of positive encouragement that this is worthwhile. So if you would go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any place you might listen to the show and leave a five-star rating and a written review, that would help a ton. If you're on social media like Facebook or Instagram, if you would please like the show, follow the show, that would help out a lot. A recommendation from you would mean the world. Today we're coming back to our interview with identical twin first responders Stuart and Steve Littlefield. Stuart is the 30-year cop on the SWAT team and also a homicide detective. Steve is a 30-year firefighter. Both worked at the same time in the same city, my home of Kansas City, Kansas. Today we're going to talk about a couple of the dramatic, critical incidents that they were involved in and also answer the question of which service is healthier and which one is worse. Here are brothers Stuart and Steve Littlefield. Tell me about a time that you guys found yourselves on the same scene as a firefighter and as a cop. Tell me about being on the same scene.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So the biggest call we were ever on, and we we had a few calls together, but nothing monumental, nothing as monumental as this. So this would have been in the late 90s, early 2000s. There was a domestic call up off Quindero Boulevard. And Quindero Boulevard is the northeast corner of Kansas City, kind of a high crime area, and right around the corner from where Stephen Station was. So this was around Alice in Quindero, which is near 7th Street. Steve's station was off of like 9th or 10th.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Small neighborhood in the northeast part of Kansas City called Quindero Homes. Very small, uh tight community, very small houses. And this was a specific cul-de-sac where a husband and wife lived in one house, and on the other side of the cul-de-sac, the wife's father lived.

unknown 2:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

And so there was some pre-planning here, which I'll get into in a minute because it makes this story a lot deeper. But apparently, the husband and wife got involved in a domestic altercation. Her father came across the street and shot her husband.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

And killed him?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

And killed him. And then retreated back into his house. And uh officers arrived. And I I don't know if it came out as a as a shooting, but when they knocked on the door, the guy opened fire. And from what I saw, he shot above the police officer. I think he could have killed him. I don't think he wanted to kill a copy.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Yep. The shooting at the police. At the police. Is fire on scene yet?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

No. We so this has all happened. We fire probably came in ten minutes later, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Okay. And you are doing what job and where are you at?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

So I was on the SWAT team. Okay. I'm at home doing Sunday stuff. My pager goes off. And I remember it was it was in the wintertime, but it was in the 50s out, really nice out. And so we respond to the scene and we surround the house. It started out at, like I said, 50 degrees. By late afternoon, it was down to 19 degrees. Uh-huh. And we were cold and it was miserable. So this guy is in the house. At one point, they thought he might have killed himself. Right. We're not really sure. Uh they sent a dog in. The dog didn't alert, dog came back out. So they had us make entry. And you know, these houses are only 10, 15 feet apart, maybe even closer.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Yeah. Little tiny houses all close together.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yes, it's like two-bedroom little house. And so uh we we formed an entry team and we came into the house, and uh one team took the living room, and my partner and I took the kitchen, and then there was a hallway went into the back, and I heard somebody say something. And we don't talk in an entry, uh, slow and deliberate. We don't, there's no talking at all. And so I was a little bit irritated that somebody was talking, and then I heard our team leader at the hallway say, What did you say? And a voice from the back from the back said, If you come back here, I'm gonna kill you. So eight comps went in, eight comps came out. And we gave I it's not really maybe a good idea to get that ground, but there's nothing there that'll stop a bullet. Um, and so we backed out and then we had a full-blown standoff, okay, which lasted late into the afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

When did fire show up? I was working for somebody that day. The captain that was on the rig that day needed off by noon, so I didn't show up until noon. So he was only down there for about two hours. Right. Fire got there probably it was probably 20, 30 minutes after the call came out for a shooting. Okay, and uh are you on standby for medical?

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Yes, and we're probably two blocks down the road. Okay, but we get we had a line of sight, we could see what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

That sounds like the place where a cop would make a sarcastic joke about you guys staging two blocks away. But I won't say it, but that's way easier. Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

So so at noon, I come in to relieve the captain I was working for, and he took my truck back to the fire station, and then I didn't think it was gonna be that big of a deal. And it, like I said, it was long and drawn out, and all we did is sit in the fire truck for 10 hours.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

How aware are you if you see some indication or hear radio traffic that indicates that the SWAT team is on scene? How aware are you that your brothers up there, maybe in that house or near that house, or about to go in that house?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Very aware then, because he hadn't been on that long then. Um probably four or five years, maybe, if that? Probably five. So I knew the score I knew they were on scene, but I didn't know where they were at or what they were doing. We we we were communicated, there was a a uh command staff officer coming back and giving us updates what's going on every now and then, every half an hour. But we're you know, we're 100 yards down the road. Okay. You kind of see what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

But how aware are you? Are you hearing things like radio traffic mentioning pumper five or anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I never had a clue. Our radios are we have a common chance.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

You're just listening to your never occurred to me.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Um, and uh, you know, we were pretty busy. Yeah, um, and there was uh so now we've got a guy in the house, armed, he's already killed one person, shot at the police. Uh, and he's not going anywhere. We have a barricade, time's on our side. We did not have a robot at the time, but bomb robots were just coming onto the scene. Uh-huh. So our chief, and I God love him, he called up Kansas City, Missouri and wanted their robot. Robots are worth a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

So they made an agreement that we'll give you the robot. You can use it after the scene's done to do surveillance. So they brought the robot and the chief sent it straight to the house.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

This is not a bulletproof robot. No. This is a very expensive robot that belonged to Kansas City, Missouri.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, but you know, in his opinion, we'll buy a new robot. I don't want to lose a cop. Yeah. So um, we didn't get much out of the robot. Long story short, this is this is drawing out hours, and we're getting colder by the minute. We started evacuating uh houses around there uh as a safety precaution.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

And this is going into the evening, correct.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

And one lady, God bless her, she said, I left a pot of coffee on for you guys, and there's cookies on my table. And we drank coffee and it came out. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 8:09

Yes, really? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

So uh they finally get to the point, we introduce gas to the house. I think he had a gas mask. We looked at it later. I don't recall.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

He did, he had a gas mask. He was he was a Vietnam vet.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Okay, okay, and so um gas didn't work. So the next step is to introduce smoke. And if you understand how smoke works, so that you would throw the canister in, and as the canister burns and the smoke begins to fill the house, it pushes the oxygen out. Uh and so you have a choice, you can come out or you can stay in and suffocate. So we introduced smoke into the house from the back to the front. Uh it was my partner and I. Uh, he is throwing the canister through the window, and I'm providing lethal cover. Yeah. And so we kind of made a clockwise move around the house. And uh when we got to the very front window, we, you know, anytime you threw smoke in, the candles would begin to burn, you'd see the curtains catch fire and glow. And then pretty soon the smoke would push out the oxygen and the fire would die. So we got all the way back around to the front of the house, and he put a canister through the window, and the curtains began to burn like they always did. And then I don't know what was there, but something exploded. Boom! And the front door slammed shut and then slammed back open. And that fed oxygen into the house, and that house went up like a Roman candle. If only we had a firefighter here to explain that to us, Steve.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

So we're sitting down the block, and of course, the commander that had been talking to us, letting us know what's going on. Hey, we're getting ready to do this. You know, we know there's probably gonna be a fire pretty quick. You guys be ready to come in. So we saw it, this happened, and the fire started growing, and it blew the front window out. And what time? So it's dark. It's getting dark, yeah. Okay, all right. And uh the fire's rolling, it's it's building. And uh he comes up, he goes, What do you think? And I'm like, I said, but I'll tell you what, I said, uh, he'd have to be Superman to still be alive inside there. There's no way that that guy's still alive inside the house. He goes, Are you sure? I said, 99%. He says we need to know for sure because you're not going in unless you know for you think for sure he's dead. Okay. Stuart.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Well, and and I heard on the radio, once again, God bless our chief. He's talking to our sergeant on the SWAT channel, and he says, Is it survivable? Our sergeant said, It's hard to tell right now. And the chief said, Let me know when it's not survivable, because he was not gonna send a fireman in there to get killed by a man with a gun. Yeah. Now, me, I was so cold, it was cold out that um I had been around the corner, kind of behind a tree. Great big oak tree, pretty good cover. I stepped around that tree to get close to the house to warm up because I I didn't even think about getting shot. I was freezing. Yeah. And so moments later, it the house was fully involved, and then they rolled up.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

And then and then also, too, so we're there for a standby for a shooting. Yeah. For like a medical call. For hours. For hours. Well, so when the house catches fire, I called it in. Hey, we have a working structure fire. And being that it's close proximity to other houses, we have what they call a general alarm, which is an upgrade to a regular house fire. Okay. So we got at that time, we got three more pumpers and an aerial truck to come in. Okay. To, you know, just so we have resources, whatever we need. And the crazy thing is that at that time, one of our cousins had just gotten on the fire department with me. You got the whole Littlefield clan working the house of the scene. So our cousin, Mike, Sapeka, is working on 14 struck, and 14 strucks showed up. So then when we made entry in to put the fire out, he's with me, and we went in, and that's when we found uh the shooter. Okay. He was deceased in the hallway, and he had a his he had turned a uh his linen closet into like uh an ammo depot. Oh wow. I mean, it was he had tons of tons of rounds of ammunition in there, and so he is laying deceased on the floor.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Ammunition that has already caused the fire to increase. No, no, no, no. Okay, okay. But but that but that's a danger. You're in a fully involved structure fire with ammunition in one of the rooms.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Well, yes and no. Okay. I mean, it's it's not gonna do anything but pop because it's not contained. Okay. And it's not like a bomb, but but he had black powder and stuff there, too, though. So yeah, there was a there was a danger in it. Very cavalier about flammable things. It's just the fire experience. So when they so once we get in there and find him, he's laying on his back on the floor, and he had a he had knocked, he had a had had a gas mask on, but it was off. But he had an M1 Garan rifle on his chest like he was getting ready to kill himself. Really? And it was up under his jaw, and then his little dog was laying next to him.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Wow, wow, and he succumbed before he took life.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Okay. Smoke got him.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

The funniest part was these guys didn't know what we had done. And so all these the fire's out, it's still smoldering, and they all took their masks off and got a big wave of all that tear gas we put in, and they were cussing us.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

We come, I mean, like a rocket right outside. Smoke is no big deal to you guys. That's a that's an element you don't normally have.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

But it gets better because I told you this story got deeper. Yeah. So he had an outbuilding, like a little detached shed for his lawnmower. There was a dead prostitute in there. So he had planned this. His plan was welcome to Kansas City. Yes. It's a normal just another day for us.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Normal, normal Sunday afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

His plan was he was going to kill his son-in-law. He was going to bring the prostitute over to their house, burn it down. He was going to identify his daughter, the body and the son. And then apparently he and his daughter planned on escaping somewhere with maybe some insurance money. Okay. I don't know what happened, what went south on that, but she obviously changed plans at the last minute. So it was kind of a really weird twist when we're looking at back. And after we introduced gas, we opened up that back, that back shed, and there's a body of another woman there. Wow. So ended up being a crazy, crazy call out. But at the end, since the three of us were, I'm decked out in my tack gear and they're in their firefighter gear. So we took a really cool picture at in that house. And uh, it's one of the things that I treasure most.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

And the crazy thing with that story, you know, nowadays there's news everywhere. Of course, everybody has a camera. Back then, in the mid to late 90s, I'm not even sure it made the news. Yeah. Yeah. But if people would have known that, I mean that it was it was a crazy call. Yeah. So when did you retire? I left in uh October of 22.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Okay. So you both worked from the 90s up through the 2000s and the 201s. Which service was healthier for the average firefighter, the average police officer? What who who had a healthier environment, like emotionally, psychologically, to work in?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

I think nationwide, I think firefighters do. Um, I the why do you say that? Well, the pace is slower. You know, they the we get teased a lot. I still do today, you know, uh, firemen, hey, can we get help on this call? And they'll say, you know, all units are busy. And and and so imagine regularly, every night in the summertime, every cop in the city is on a call. Yeah. Every cop. And that's regular. That happens from about four o'clock in the evening till well past midnight that they go call to call. I can't ever remember a time in the history of Kansas City where every single fire rig was on a call at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

And so, you know, they get better. Oh, uh, they live together, they work together, they eat together, they I think they take care of each other better than cops do.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Do you think that's Steve? Yeah. We well, I know I know for a fact we talk about stuff because being being like when we're a call, we load it back on the rig, and we go back to the fire station, we're together until our shift is over. Yeah. Unlike the police officers that get back in their car back when they were running riding singles, and you're just by yourself till the end of your shift, or you know. Yeah.

unknown 16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

And we talk about stuff. Um it's just different.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

And society treats firefighters better. Um, I don't I can't remember anybody ever protesting firefighters.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

Not a lot of hate at firefighters typically.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

No, and which fuels the jealousy between us, you know. Um, they always tell me I just stood in the wrong line. Little truth to that. Um, but uh overall, I think the the fire service is a much healthier line. And you can do 32. I know firemen they've done over 40 years. You can't do 40 years as a cop.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Then, Steve, why are more firefighters not healthier? Because I go to firefighter peer support meetings, and there's a lot of unhealthiness. Why is far as alcoholism and divorce and and just not handling the stress as well as they might want to? Why why are firefighters not healthy? You've got some advantages in the fire service. Why isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 17:40

I think and it's getting better, but it's it's always been such a macho, not just fire department, police and all all of us, it's such a macho thing. Guys don't want to talk about stuff. Yeah. And instead of talking with somebody about it or doing something to get rid of those bad thoughts, they drink, they fight, they just don't take care of themselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

And honestly, I think that law enforcement was early to recognize the PTSD issues, and early to recognize the mental health challenges, and early to recognize uh the suicide rate. I think that we, and I I can't say we, me, but I think that our culture addressed that maybe 10 years ago, maybe even longer that we talked about it, where it's just now coming to the forefront of firefighters who are acknowledging that there is a lot of PTSD, you know, secondary and tertiary tertiary PTSD. Um, and I I think that helps us a lot. I think that's why, you know, we were the first ones to really like push physical fitness. And they all have gyms in their firehouses, but not everybody uses them.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Firefighter culture maybe has a healthier culture because they're together and there's kind of a natural debriefing system because they all can sit down and eat a meal together. But police are downstream of all of the military research for post-traumatic stress and that kind of stuff. And so I feel like that's what you're saying about some of that research coming in and saying, hey, we need to address this. We've done studies. A lot of that is because police, I think, are more directly downstream from the military. That's my personal You are absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

And I didn't put that together, but you're right. Everything from the military that they're learning trickles down to us first. Yeah. So uh, and I hadn't put two and two together, but you are 100% right.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

And I can tell you, I can tell you another call that I ran. This would have been my gosh. Getting old, can't remember half the calls I ran around. So many just they were good calls, but then they were bad calls. Yeah. Uh I ran a call one time. I was once again, I was trading time working for another guy, and I was running out of 54th Limworth Road, and we got a call for a kid hit by a school bus. So we get down there to the scene, and the school bus is sitting there at a stop sign heading north, and was rolled back a little bit from the stop sign. And I'm acting captain again that day. Had a me and a driver and a back end guy with us with an ambulance. And we pulled up, and as we pulled up by the school bus, I'm kind of looking, hey, where's the kid? And then I just looked down off the corner in the grass by the school bus, and there's the kid on the ground. I'm like, oh you know, a few bad words, so we get out, jumped out real quick and ran up there, and it was obvious she was deceased. She looked like a somebody had taken a a kid-sized rag doll and spun it and slapped it on the ground. I mean, just twisted and I mean it w it obvious she was not with us anymore. Windy day. Um I'm trying to figure what I'm gonna cover this kid up with because we didn't really carry we had carts and stuff, but I was trying to get something quick. So we went back and grabbed uh sheet off the cot off the ambulance and brought it up and had some rocks right there to cover up with because we got a school bus full of kids full of kids, and the kids are all wanting to see what's going on, of course. And yeah, and so then I had to send I sent one of guy, another guy on the bus to move all the kids to the back of the bus. The driver was done with. I mean, we couldn't even get him out of his seat. It took us probably 35 minutes after we got the girl moved and more resources on the scene to get him out of his seat, get him out the back of the bus. Anyway, um so this happens, and um I know I need resources I don't have. There's no PD there or nothing. It's just a fire truck and ambush is the only ones there. So I got on the on the radio and call for I need a PIO, I need command staff out here, contact PD, I'm gonna need a spokesperson, contact the school district. And another crazy thing, it's but he says Wyatt County, but just by chance, my cousin is in charge of school buses for the school district at the time. You guys are related to everybody. So we're working this call. Oh and then I turn around as we get the girl covered up and here come her sister and her mom running over the hill. So now I gotta deal with that situation. You know, try to calm them down and they wanted up to go up there and I said you can't go up there you know that's it's not good. That memory is not what you want to have of her. Please sit in the back of the handle. So they did that for me.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

No chaplain on scene?

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Not yet. I called for him. Okay. But I mean this this is this is all happening within five minutes. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

And so PD church went up uh they had a chaplain with them um blocking off the road so when we run the call and we get back to the fire station what they our deputy shows up one of our deputies shows up and says hey you guys are out of service cool no no big deal you know and we're sitting there and then a few a couple of um crisis intervention people from the city showed up wanting to talk to us so we're talking to them and they said hey we're sending you guys home and I said I'm not going home she goes well you need to go home you need to talk to somebody I said that's what we're doing here she goes well you've just had a bad scene here you need to go and debrief and I go ma'am I said I'm not trying to be a jerk or nothing but I said that's what we do here at the fire station yeah and she goes well I'm gonna recommend that all you guys go home right now I said well I hate to say it but I'm not leaving I've got a job to do here it's gonna be better for me and and so there was five of us you're not just being obstinate you it actually was healthier for you yeah to stay and to stay with your crew yes yeah see that's what police almost never have that so we had five people to station there that day stationed so two of the younger guys went home they had kids I get it sure um they want to go home and see them so but the other three of us we said we want to stay and she goes well I don't think you should stay you need to go talk to somebody I said I said ma'am I said if I leave here I'll tell you what's gonna happen I'm gonna go home and I'm talking to somebody and then I'm probably gonna go to the bar and drink because I I'm gonna try to calm my nerves and debrief.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

And she goes well I don't recommend that I said that's what's gonna happen. That's why I want to stay here at the fire station. We know each other we work with each other we can talk we can talk this out and by morning we'll have this all hammered out of our minds and be done.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Yeah and you then you'll go home at seven in the morning yes and and not directly to a bar or something. Yes okay so we stayed and took care of it I want to thank Steven Stewart again for being here and this is such a good example of having a story and then also having some wisdom to share these twin brothers have about 65 years of combined experience as a cop and a firefighter and as far as I know neither one of them are working on a screenplay or preparing to write a book although they could but they were eager to come tell their stories some of their painful stories so that other first responders could hear and connect and maybe be healthier look I'm at a stage where my email inbox is full of people trying to sell something on the Hey Chaplin podcast. I am not interested in 99% of those. What I would like to hear is your referral that you know especially a police officer but you know somebody in the first responder world who has a great story and has a bit of wisdom to share about it, let me know who they are and we'll see what we can make happen.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Next time on Hey Chaplin What do they mean by a 21 foot rule when this gets brought up as if it's common knowledge most people who use that phrase are laboring under the false belief that if a person with a knife or uh or an object that can be used to to inflict serious bodily injury or death is at or inside 21 feet, that you can automatically shoot them, uh that they're automatically a deadly threat. And so that if you can envision a a radius or a distance around you that's uh this bright line standard of 21 feet, once the uh your would-be opponent gets to that 21-foot space and then takes a step over the that imaginary 21 foot line he's bought and paid for okay outside 21 feet he's safe inside he's a goner all right 22 it's a no no right 20 feet it's it's weapons free. You're like no that is not correct first off okay so how how did this come up in that trial?

SPEAKER_03 27:25

Surprisingly it was the prosecution that brought it up the views expressed here are the personal views of the host and our guests and do not necessarily represent the views of any law enforcement agency or its components. If you like this episode please share it with a cop or someone who loves a cop. Thank you for listening to Hey Chaplin and as always let's pray for peace in our cities