Embark with us on a literary odyssey through the entangled destinies within R. Scott Bakker's "The Thousandfold Thought." Our seasoned panelists, Steve, Mike, Carl, and Varsha, return to dissect a world where power is as perilous as it is enticing. Witness Esmenet's swift rise and the moral labyrinths navigated by Kellhus, while we untangle the enigmatic Dunyain's place in this cryptic tapestry of high fantasy and philosophy.
This episode spirals into the depths of transformation, war, and the arcane as words morph into weapons and holy wars evolve into indifferent monstrosities. We grapple with the haunting presence of demons, the fate of mages, and the unrelenting march of a narrative that carries our characters through darkness and despair. Our examination probes the psyche of the Nonmen, the mystery of the No-God, and the harrowing potential of a Diabolus ex Machina lurking in the folds of an epic saga.
Culminating in a discussion that wades through Cormac McCarthy's "Blood Meridian" and parallels with Bakker's work, we confront the challenging themes of identity, sexual violence, and the nature of power. The rich tapestry of relationships, the weight of history, and the scars of conflict are laid bare as we near the story's tragic conclusion.
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Embark with us on a literary odyssey through the entangled destinies within R. Scott Bakker's "The Thousandfold Thought." Our seasoned panelists, Steve, Mike, Carl, and Varsha, return to dissect a world where power is as perilous as it is enticing. Witness Esmenet's swift rise and the moral labyrinths navigated by Kellhus, while we untangle the enigmatic Dunyain's place in this cryptic tapestry of high fantasy and philosophy.
This episode spirals into the depths of transformation, war, and the arcane as words morph into weapons and holy wars evolve into indifferent monstrosities. We grapple with the haunting presence of demons, the fate of mages, and the unrelenting march of a narrative that carries our characters through darkness and despair. Our examination probes the psyche of the Nonmen, the mystery of the No-God, and the harrowing potential of a Diabolus ex Machina lurking in the folds of an epic saga.
Culminating in a discussion that wades through Cormac McCarthy's "Blood Meridian" and parallels with Bakker's work, we confront the challenging themes of identity, sexual violence, and the nature of power. The rich tapestry of relationships, the weight of history, and the scars of conflict are laid bare as we near the story's tragic conclusion.
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Hello everyone. Welcome to the first discussion of the Thousandfold Thought, which is the third book in the Prince of Nothing trilogy by R Scott Baker. We're going to be reading this book roughly at the same pace as we did the previous two in the series. We're going to be reading 100 pages each week, and how many of our chapters brings us to 100 pages each week? Today we're going to be discussing chapters 1 through 4 and next week, when we meet again, we'll be talking chapters 5 through 9. If you'd like to read along with us, discuss these books either here on the discussion group or on the forum, consider checking out the Patreon forum With me. I have the usual wonderful people. If we get to discuss this with Steve, would you like to start us off with introductions?
Speaker 2:Sure, I'm Steve and this is my second time reading the Thousandfold Thought and I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Mike.
Speaker 3:Yes, my name is Mike and really excited to continue with the series. I'm a first time reader and after a short hiatus I was thinking I could just read through the whole thing. But I'm glad to be talking with all of you because there's probably a lot of things that I misunderstood.
Speaker 4:I am Carl, also a first time reader, and happy to be here.
Speaker 1:I'm Varsha, also a first time reader and happy to be here. That almost times. We should make a poem out of it. This, yeah. So what did everyone think? I felt we took a two week break from the previous discussion, like from the end of the last book, the Warrior Prophet, so it felt nice to take that break and then come back looking forward to the book.
Speaker 4:See, for me, I was getting withdrawals. I was like you know, I was getting like breaking out in hives, like getting feverish. It was really rough. I needed to talk about it and keep reading, but it was worth the wait.
Speaker 1:Nice. Yeah, I'm glad that we picked up where we left off and we started with all the usual characters that I've sort of grown attached as a strange word to use based on how I feel about them just this moment but yeah, I'm glad we picked up familiar characters.
Speaker 4:Well, why don't you start us off? Because before we jumped on, you were telling us about how your opinions changed from where we were at the end of the Warrior Prophet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So at the end of the Warrior Prophet, I was nearly furious at a commune for how he thought about Esmenet. Like I understood that he had his heart broken and everything. But what was surfacing as a result of said broken heart were thoughts that he had entertained about Esmenet all along. You know, she's just her and that's, this is all she wants, when in fact like that's all he wanted.
Speaker 1:But I feel like she handled him extremely callously without any concern for his feelings. I mean, maybe she was protecting herself. We kind of get the impression that she's worried that she'll fall back into his arms and so she doesn't want to do that. But she was not at all gentle with him and letting him down Not the first time which I get, because you know she was worried for Kailas he was hanging from a tree and she needed to get him right. But now that everything is fine, she's busy enjoying her newfound power and has no concern for poor Akamian. So yeah, I have sort of flipped on that. I expect I'll flip again when something else happens but because I'm still not appreciating Akamian's inward thoughts about how she's just a whore and whatnot. But you know, the man's heart broke and a few months ago he was apparently your entire life and like you can just turn around from that and like that's fine too, but you're not being gentle with him at all.
Speaker 4:I do think she like, like you said, that she is just conflicted.
Speaker 4:Still, you know that she has a moment where she like sees him and wants kind of to jump into his arms and reunite with him in a more romantic way.
Speaker 4:But he, obviously things have changed too and I mean I feel, you, she's definitely being Kailas in his sense and I think it absolutely is a way to kind of protect herself because she is afraid of jumping back to the way things were and she can't because she's now, you know, married without being married to Kailas and the leader, seemingly kind of the female face, of this new cult, this new sect of the Enrithi movement. I certainly don't like where she's at, you know, I mean for a number of reasons, not least because of her relationship with Kailas. And yeah, and I mean, like we've said, you know how Kailas she seems to be in this position of power, that it definitely seems to have enabled some of her. I mean she hasn't been like truly atrocious, you know, compared to like basically all the men she's surrounded with. But you know, it's still not great, certainly for her and for, you know, the Kamean either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think there's some really interesting exploration there in how it seems to me I at least this is what I read into it how easily she fell into this role of power where she's like, yeah, kill him, yeah, get rid of him, I don't want to see him again, and so on and so forth. Just going from this place where she was extremely oppressed and such a victim of society, she seems to lack a great deal of empathy or compassion, like she does it without second thoughts, the difficult decision she takes and, yeah, she has some contemplation about how easily that does come, but she's not shying away from it, she's not refusing it. She's like, yeah, it's almost like she thinks she deserves it because she's been treated so poorly and, yeah, she deserves nice things in life, but maybe no one should get to exercise power in this way. It it? Yeah, I'm basically agreeing with you, calda. I don't know if this is what you meant, but this is one of the reasons why I do not like her position right now either.
Speaker 4:I think that's fair yeah.
Speaker 3:Just to interject here. I think in the first chapter I'm I felt a little bit hopeful that there's still maybe some future for Esminette and Akamian, because it seems I think even Kela says that she still loves him. I don't think he really he's kind of he doesn't seem to mind sharing people, as we've we've noticed in previous, the previous books. So I, I don't know, I feel like book three, we might see it a turn of events here with maybe because he's clearly still, you know, even though he has this he's he's definitely been scorned but he's still obviously is in love with her. So we'll, we'll see how that. And I think he was really excited to learn that he was going to be close to her, although I think he's I mean he's torn because that has the phone, its own issues or challenges, but I think he's I remember it in chapter one he sees that kind of as an opportunity to kind of get her back or, if I, if I remember correctly, but I don't know what to if he had the same kind of take on it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I definitely that's what you're talking about is the same thing I was sort of alluding to earlier where, like, she clearly is showing affection for him still and desire and we'll see how it plays out I mean, I'm honestly not really sure, I don't. I don't know if it would be good for them or not. You know, like I, I just I don't know. They have a lot of journeying to do internally and externally and I think it's very interesting. Where it came in is at this point in the story.
Speaker 4:I confess I think his storyline, his personal kind of storyline right now, is the thing that's the most interesting to me, at least in this first section, just because he's like balancing this immense weight of you know, knowing that he's helping this man who he views as the Messiah, you know, I mean he's being like, you know, the Gandalf, like wise wizard figure, right, but in this like really strange subversive way where the hero is actually a manipulative sociopath.
Speaker 4:He doesn't know that, but he is and he, the way he views it, he was cuckolded by this man, even though I don't know that that's necessarily an apt phrase for it, just because everyone thought he was dead. And yeah, I mean it's just, you know he's working with the chosen one, but the chosen one sucks and the chosen one, you know he has so many reasons to just like hate him and he kind of does, but he also feels like he has to do everything he can to support him, otherwise, you know, the orcs are going to run over everything. So it's, it's a tough position to be in and I definitely find myself feeling for him a lot and no, at the same time I'm like dude, oh Keles, he's not. He's not what you think he is. I mean, maybe he is that's the thing too is like maybe he is this messianic figure, but he's also terrible.
Speaker 1:I mean, keles is really leaning into the whole I am your prophet manipulation that he's doing of the people Like there's, there's no way he's actually a prophet, right? He is just manipulating this crowd into thinking that he is their prophet. He's saying, oh, this is what my brother did. I'm coming, father, and like basically, apparently in resagentness and God are his family.
Speaker 4:Well, I, how do we define prophet right? Because he can basically predict the future, whether or not he has magical powers, right, and that's one of the defining features, I feel like. And he does deal out wisdom, I would say like in my mind, whether or not he's magical, whether or not he has a connection and he's sort of higher power, although I guess that's probably one of the defining features of a prophet right. So you know that's, that's fair.
Speaker 4:But I do think he's very much acting in the role of prophet, you know, and in some sense he is facing off against this diabolical, demonic threat from outer space. So I, you know, I mean it's interesting right. I feel like it's kind of this gray area where I you're right Like the thing that he's missing is this connection to this higher power, although, you know, I mean.
Speaker 4:I mean magical like, and how do we even know, like, what divinity exists? You know, do the divinities they believe in exist? But you know it's it's tough to tell, right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, to be fair, maybe the divine connection is not a requirement, but he's claiming it. He's claiming it and I don't. I don't think that's true.
Speaker 4:So well, yeah, he definitely is not what he says he is. But you know, is he at the same time Like? I guess part of my conflict too is like is he their best weapon against the console? You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't totally blame a Commian for thinking that, given that there is this prophecy, and why not believe that this prophecy is real right, when you have these memories of this past life, like, certainly the memories may be flawed, but you know, the apocalypse is real.
Speaker 4:You know that these kings were real, you know that he is probably descended from these kings and you also know that he's capable of these things that you can't explain. You know and is your best weapon at this point. But against the consult it's tough, you know, because Kellis I mean part of the question you have to ask too and I think we've talked about this before is, just like you know what's better, kellis or the consult? Like, seemingly you know you want to say Kellis, because the consult is like this, these alien evil, but like I mean I don't know, like who knows how far he'll go, who knows what he'll do? He's already done a lot of terrible things, like we'll see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean Kellis is like if you have a really mean therapist, you know that's.
Speaker 4:Not just like a mean therapist, one who will like actively like get together with your girlfriend or your boyfriend and you know and like steal all your friends away from you, and like you know they woo your parents too and like it's just like the worst therapist you've ever had, but they also like say the wisest things you've ever heard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was it to Saban? Or there were a couple of conversations that he told people this is what I think you're actually feeling and I was like, yeah, that's what a therapist does, except a lot more gently telling you where your thoughts are coming from so you can deal with it. He has no interest in letting people deal with it. He's like, no, you're wrong, I'm right, because this is how you think and there's some inherent judgment there, I think. But yeah, that was interesting. I especially loved how the Scarlet Spires the head of Scarlet Spires I forget his name- Eleazarus, eleazarus, eleazarus, eleazarus, eleazarus.
Speaker 1:Eleazarus.
Speaker 4:But yeah.
Speaker 1:How he talked about. He tells you your secrets, secrets that you keep from yourself, and I thought that was pretty brilliant and also, really, I think, a good explanation of the darkness that comes before, because I think, at least to me, it wasn't like hyper clear what was meant by it. I think it's becoming more clear now, but it could have meant many different things. This is at least one of the things that they mean, right, the secret reasons why we do the things we do. But yeah, overall I agree, like that's a very interesting question.
Speaker 1:I think, once again, I've hopped on about this before, but I think our commune's making a lot of assumptions when he thinks that Kallus is going to save the world. All that's going to like. I don't. How do you know he's not going to bring about the end of the world? How do you know he's not? What the saving entail was the world going to look like under his rule? It's not, yeah, but of course Akamyan doesn't know, doesn't know about the manipulation. He probably is even buying into the profit thing you know. I think the last line of the fourth chapter implies that he has to do it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, totally, I think he's drinking the Kool-Aid. I mean, I don't think he would be so malleable, you know, and so accepting of all that Kallus has done, particularly in relation to Asmanat, if it wasn't for the fact that he genuinely believes he's a prophet and their last best hope against the consult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the prophet bit wasn't a requirement for the saving the world, but it was just incident. But he believes that he has some additional powers that might help save the world perhaps, and also I don't think it was mentioned a whole lot in this section, but he has this hope of salvation himself. Right that the prophet is rewriting the tusk. Now he's redefining all the rules and in this new world perhaps there is a place for sorcerers in afterlife. Heaven, afterlife, whatever.
Speaker 3:One thing I want to say is, you know, I don't think it's going to work out too well, unless, for example, meaning I don't think that Kallus is necessarily going to save everybody, unless it's in his interest, right? Sure, like I think everything is kind of leading up to him connecting with his father, but we don't really. His father is probably a pretty bad dude, and one of the things I kept thinking about is that the prophecy is about it and that's a rimbor. Is it Kallus or is it his father? You know?
Speaker 3:what I mean, like I was like thinking, let's take a moment. I kept thinking. I actually went back and reread the first what do you call it? The prologue in the first book. I'm not saying I found anything great, but I mean his father is depicted as this guy. Basically that was kind of banished from the Dunyain and because he did I don't have the exact words, but I found that really interesting and basically, if I understood it correctly, the Dunyain are finished. That was the end of them because of what he did, although it's not very clear. So I just keep thinking about what's leading up to this father and Kallus is supposedly going to correct some sort of wrong, or I don't know. But his father called to him in a dream, which I found very interesting.
Speaker 4:My understanding was that he, what he did wrong, was he left, Was that not it? Was he banished? I thought he like fled. I mean not like fled fled, but like he left the whatever that city's called. I'm blinking on the name. Now you're reading or something.
Speaker 3:But I think it's a little bit unclear. It's a little unclear. No, it's definitely vague.
Speaker 4:They're vague around all that.
Speaker 3:I sense that he's like, he was like the end of them, you know, like, and so like they waited, I think, for Kallus to be old enough, I believe, because they're that line of, they're the line of the Kings, like you said, carl, I don't know that Dunyain themselves. I don't know who they are. I wonder if they're like somehow connected to Soswatha or whatever. But anyway, I couldn't help, but I was really because we had an extra time. I was just really like I don't know thinking and I didn't look up anything online but I kept like maybe I'll find something.
Speaker 4:They did enjoy rereading the prologue.
Speaker 4:On kind of the note of the mystery of the Dunyain which we've talked about off and on, I can't be the only one who thinks like they must have some horrible mess up origin story. Like everything we're finding out so far is like everything that you think like there's some mystery, like where did they come from? It ends up being like the worst thing you can imagine. You know, and the Dunyain, considering that like no one remembers them, says what the like you said, maybe they're tied to Soswatha, but says like a camea doesn't know anything about them. He now knows the word Dunyain and he doesn't like think of you know he doesn't have a memory of them, seemingly. I would have to reread the check, but I don't know for certain if he mentioned to not Sarah the big consult or not consult the big mandate guy. Thank you that Keles is Dunyain. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they have some sort of history log of that, but like Does a common?
Speaker 1:no, keles is Dunyain. Has that happened yet?
Speaker 4:I don't think so, is he not?
Speaker 1:Okay, maybe I'm looking at that word.
Speaker 4:I would have to check to see. I know the consult knows, so I don't know why. I mean maybe he doesn't. In that case, maybe that'll be the big reveal is a camean will hear that and suddenly be like, oh no, not these guys. I'm not sure.
Speaker 3:I agree with you that I think they're like seriously bad news, Like their origin story is probably you know what's so weird is they're like they were refugees.
Speaker 4:you know, like that's how we're introduced to them is they were fleeing the apocalypse, but they existed.
Speaker 3:I feel like they've existed long before.
Speaker 4:But I agree, like I just think, anyway, when I read that I was like Whoa, that's kind of interesting.
Speaker 3:I didn't like nothing was really clear.
Speaker 4:But what's so weird about it to me is, like I don't know, maybe it's just because, like, we're obviously dealing with sort of like twisted and like epic fantasy eyes, like versions of kind of the Abrahamic faiths and you know, the crusades and everything, and we don't really have like a Jewish equivalent, right Of like this third religion, that's like the oldest, that sort of in some ways, with the foundation for the others, right, although we hear about the like these latter, you know, in Marithi, so genus is the latter prophet right, and then you have the other prophet of fame. And you know, when I hear that the refugees I think of like one of my first thoughts was like the Jewish people who were, like you know, you think historically have been like exiled constantly, whether you go from like Egypt or just like all over. Like you know Guy Gabriel Kay, I know his version of Judaism, the people are called like the wandering people because they're constantly having to move, they're constantly kicked out of their cities. You know, europe has a whole history, you know, of like in France or in England or wherever, like kicking out all the Jews, and so that was my first thought of the Dunia, and they don't seemingly believe in the God, so like it's not actually tied to them.
Speaker 4:But then you have this like I guess what I'm getting at is like I initially was like, oh, you know, I'm kind of like sympathetic to them. They almost seem like victims is what I'm getting at? Like victims of some sort of great atrocity. But then we, the more we find out about them, the more we're like oh, these guys suck, like they're horrible, they're evil. So I'm like I'm wondering, I'm so curious, what their deal is. You know like, well, they, I get such weird vibe, like it's they're. They're just surrounded by so much mystery. You know, I don't know, I don't know what to think with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you think we just thought too? But okay, we don't know what's up with Moengas yet, but we saw at least how he manipulated Nayyar, right? So do you think we just saw two very bad examples of the Dunyan, or do you think they're all like that? I mean sure, like how they manipulated everyone is a consequence of their training. But the training doesn't define how you behave, right, it's just but.
Speaker 4:But the training includes cutting people open and pulling the muscles of their face. That's true, yes, and you know, kicking out the people who were like I forget what they call them, but like the lesser people. You know they had some term for like people who could not cut themselves off or like natural spaces.
Speaker 4:They got right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, like undesirables, you know they're it's just. I remember distinctly being maybe they're not all bad, maybe it's just Kellis, you know. And then, and then we got that flashback and I was like, oh no, no, they're horrible. Like these are like mad scientists, eugenicists Like I again, I don't think the Nazi, you know, parallels are like unintended, like I think it's very intentional that Kellis is like this blonde haired, blue-eyed oober minch.
Speaker 1:Carefully bred.
Speaker 4:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:I think the eugenics thing is like totally intentional. Now the interesting thing is the dunyain I don't know aren't necessarily described that way. I think it's the on a serving board line Right that has those features. You know it's the North, nor sari, the Northern people who are blonde haired, blue-eyed. We don't know where the dunyain are from, presumably from the North, but I don't know that for a fact it's. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just rambling at this point. There's a lot going on there.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, that makes sense. Seishwetha doesn't remember, so these guys don't know. It's almost like the dunyain have been forgotten about, if they were ever widely known about. They have been forgotten much like the consul has been forgotten in the current time. So that makes sense.
Speaker 4:What's so mysterious about it to me is, like, why wouldn't seswatha know about them or think of them? Right, they don't come up in the memory. So whether it came in, knows about, like that Kelsa dunyain or not, seswatha doesn't think about them. They're seemingly not a big deal in the first apocalypse. So were they just this like small minority of people or were they like like that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:There's so much that like the pieces, the puzzle that's like fitting together, like it just doesn't quite make sense. And I'm like, and not in a like baker is doing something wrong way, like this is a problem way, but like in a I I can't like, even like fathom, like what? What is their deal? You know what's their history? Where do they fit into the big picture here? Cause we can kind of piece together a lot of the factions and where they come from and how it all works. And the dunyain, or this big question mark of like how do they fit into the apocalypse? Like how, how do they make sense in this world? Uh, it's, I mean it's really intriguing. It's certainly the part of the world building I'm most fascinated by at this point.
Speaker 1:Everybody wants to know, even the concert wants to know Right, exactly. Steve, I saw you unmute yourself a few times while we were talking, but did you have anything to add to a discussion?
Speaker 2:No, I'm just having I'm enjoying the talk, the discussion of the of the Anasarimba and Dunyain, but, um, I was actually going to bring up something about Espinette, so I didn't want to interrupt.
Speaker 1:Oh, um, yeah. Do you want to talk about it now? I guess, yes, oh.
Speaker 2:So, going back to Espinette, there's a passage that I tagged on page 35. Um, this she understood was power of the translation of word into fact. She only needs speak and the world would be rewritten before her voice could conjure only custom rigid breaths and quickened seed before her cries would only, uh, forestall affliction and whittle what small mercies would might come. But now her voice had become that mercy, that affliction. So you can see her, her, she's starting to change and she's starting to feel like she has some. Her words are powerful. So I just love that. I love the, the transformation that she's going through now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that is a really great powerful, uh, no pun intended. Quote there. Right, the translation of word into fact, like defining power that way it's. It is profound in a sense, just in the in the way that like, yeah, once you have power, you know you can rewrite reality. In a sense, you know history is written by the victors, right it? Whatever you say is real is real, right the way dictators are, like they'll just deny you know things that happened. You know it's yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And there was a line that she told uh came in. That just it just happens like wow, uh, on page 41, she tells it's true. She tells him you were my life. When she raised her face it was only with weariness, not ferocity. She had expected and he is my world. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That and I think, yeah, the line just before that. So it's not just her being callous to him with words by trying to protect herself, right, it's what she's thinking to herself too. That sort of angered me a little bit. She's thinking, what does he matter? His heart was broken long before and and you were what he used to heal himself a little bit.
Speaker 4:So, no, no compassion for that, but anyway so I want to say too that, um, one of the quotes I really liked that I think kind of ties into this is, uh, the epigraph, the start of chapter three. If so, it stains your tunic diet black. This is vengeance and it's just such a, you know, assuming you all are interpreting that the same way, I am like a really bleak way of looking at the world and looking at trauma and things and like, and it's effectively what a lot of these characters and certainly has been that right now is doing right where it's like, okay, if people hurt you, you know you become the thing that hurt you. You know you, you you take it into yourself and make it part of you. And it's like, as Manette is becoming like the man who abused her, it's really sad and tragic tragic is, I think, the right word for it. It's very Greek tragedy.
Speaker 2:It's one of my favorite quotes from the whole series. I love that one.
Speaker 4:It's real good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did. I did wonder about how to interpret this. I it almost felt like it was a warning that you're hurting yourself more than you're doing anything like externally If you are seeking vengeance. But I like your interpretation a lot more. That makes more sense.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, I think you're right too, where you are in a sense hurting yourself or like you know, like spiritually, like you know that, like you're just like you're kind of like you know you're, just like you're hurting yourself, like you're just like your core identity, you're taking this damage that was done to you and making that part of who you are and possibly even then, you know, inflicting that back on the world. It's a way of like trying to take power, but you're also just internalizing the damage. You know it's, it's internal, it's not.
Speaker 4:I don't think it's meant to be particularly I don't know what the word I'm looking for You're using soot, right black, right darkness. This imagery of darkness, right like this, is not a good thing. Yeah, and I think yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a powerful but sad thought, but certainly it could be a cautionary tell, right, I mean, I guess we don't know enough about the person who was quoted there that you know it could be almost satirical, but it certainly seems to be kind of the way as Manette, for example, is approaching life at the moment.
Speaker 2:Almost like you're embracing it, like you're taking it in and becoming what. But that thing is like you're becoming that thing. Yeah, I like that. There's no context, it's just the beginning of the chapter. So it allows you to kind of do well on it. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and isn't it isn't really lashing out right now. She's oddly at peace with what she's doing and I guess her lot in life now it's. Maybe that's coming from this being in a happy place, but oh what she's giving back to the world as a result.
Speaker 4:She's becoming more like Keles, in a sense, right where she just doesn't feel bad about the action she takes, she is she's very clinical about it all than Keles. You know, keep coming back to that word, she's very callous right now.
Speaker 1:This. It's also I don't know if this is intentional or if this is how I read it and it's all wrong, but you know that bit. I'm skipping ahead a little bit when the some other Indrithi are joining this holy war because they've come by the ocean and they are meeting the people who have been through the foot soldiers, who have been through the holy war already, and I'm trying to find the quote. But they talk about how they all look at them like they're objects. They've bled whatever part of them was related to these Indrithi and now they've become other people. And, yes, that I think is talking about their experience, because they've been such through such a terrible experience so far and it's a lot.
Speaker 1:But also, I think it's speaking to their transformation with the doctrine that Keles is giving them right how, like I think one of the lens I don't know if I mentioned it already is like they looked at them as they were objects, as if everything is an object, and that's how you look at them. So it seems I don't know if this interpretation is correct, but it seems like they've gained this new objectivity in the world and they don't feel anymore Like Keles is a twisted version of what I think is a very interesting philosophy, and these guys seem to be twisted versions of Keles. But yeah, I don't know. Did you guys interpret it that way or was how did that seem like just extending your point about what you said about Esbonet becoming Keles? It feels like the whole holy war is in some way it's like taking a concept that you don't fully understand and trying to apply it. That seems to be at least part of it, if not all of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you're spot on there, varsha. I think that interpretation is even better than my interpretation, which really was just that they were. You know, they have been through the war and I thought he was depicting them as just people that they're. You know, they've really been through a lot. I mean thousands and thousands of their own people died and they've been through plague and famine and everything, and so I think that does take a lot out of you. So I was trying to sympathize with them. But your point is a good one and I wouldn't even think about that thousandth full thought which we still don't know what it is. I wondered if he's able to have some effect on, you know, the populace, the followers, so that they're kind of thinking more like him. I'm still not totally sure what it means, but I think you've, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I found the lines, if I could just read it real quick. Out of calamity, they had salvaged only the barest necessities. All else had been jettisoned. Their spare manner, their guarded speech, their disinterested contempt for excess, all spoke to a dangerous thrift. And nowhere was this more evident than in their eyes. They stared with the blank wariness of men who never slept, not peering, not watching, but observing, and with the directness that transcended bold or rude, and I think it was the observing but that got me it, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean the whole yeah armies is very callous. I mean I don't know that they were ever it's. Certainly we talked about the Holy War being a character and I don't think it's ever been what you would describe as a particular noble character. But it has gotten to the point where it's like callous, like sociopathic, and he, you know it's interesting talking about him twisting people to be more like him, but they really aren't. Like they're still connected to the darkness that comes before right, like they're this bastardization of what he is. Yeah, you know, they're not even at that level as profoundly messed up as he is, like he at least has some semblance of control really, and that for them it's like this illusion and just like hollowing out, you know, of themselves and of the human parts of themselves, but without actually achieving any sort of enlightenment or power like true power. I guess you could say I, yeah, it's tough, so unless someone has something more to say.
Speaker 4:There was something I was thinking of earlier but didn't get to interject about it because it's going to veer us wildly off.
Speaker 4:So I was watching a video I think Barcia, you're the one who posted it of some Booktubers talking about the warrior prophet, and someone mentioned that there were demons, which proves Hell is real, some form of hell is real, and I'd totally brushed over the fact when, like yeah, the demons were summoned, that that meant that, apparently, hell is real. Now I'm curious what y'all thoughts are about this. Mom, one of my first instincts was, well, maybe they're aliens. Because we now know aliens are real and though the things that we previously thought were, like you know, in a lot of fantasy would be associated with kind of demonic forces, you know, the, the shrunk and things like that are, I Guess the shrunk were created or something like that. I'm a little unclear exactly how their relationship to the consult works, but the incoroi we know are, are literally extraterrestrials. So what, you know, what are your thoughts on the demons and the hells? And like our mages actually damned like? Does their belief in that, you know, actually translate to like they're literally Damning themselves by doing this thing?
Speaker 1:I don't remember when the demons are summoned. Dude, can you remind me?
Speaker 4:It was the scarlet spires, I believe summon some demons against a Cami and I want to say it's when a came in, breaks free of when he is being held.
Speaker 3:I believe there. Yeah, it was a demon. That gets summed up.
Speaker 4:I heard like roast immediately. Yeah, that's what he's just going, ham yeah.
Speaker 1:Was this different from? And they summoned that illusory dragon thing to kill the head of the scarlet spires.
Speaker 4:They do that a lot. That's one of their favorite Dragon head of light. I think it's just how the spell look. My understanding is they sort of almost act through Creatures or like mediums, you know like some sort of other like creatures. You know like they're. They're like channeling other Creatures, energies, I guess, versus like a came in who you know like just can rewrite reality. You know it's, it's. The metaphysics are a little bit unclear but I, my understanding is the dragon head is just like then utilizing, like dragon, draconic energy, dragon fire, and the demons are like actual demons that they summoned.
Speaker 1:I See, okay, so they exist. They are physical form of something.
Speaker 4:I mean Steve could speak to this more with whatever is not spoilery and Well, however you understand it, because I imagine it remains mysterious to some degree. But I you know, I'm curious everyone's thoughts.
Speaker 2:Good Mike, before I go oh.
Speaker 3:I was. I was curious what you were gonna say. I can, I can comment, but if you please go ahead. I.
Speaker 2:Do think it's interesting that we we go to certain like heaven and hell, I think we draw those conclusions, but in this, like a fantasy setting, we automatically go to that kind of that conclusion. But I do think it's an it's Be careful, I think, through through the series, through most of the series, I think, the question of what does being damned really mean. So, if they're damned, if they're damned, what does being damned mean exactly? And I think it's open to interpretation, at least for for a while. So you can.
Speaker 2:I think it's an interesting question of in this world where we know the Inca or a thing and We've gotten a taste of kind of the, a little bit of the behind the scenes of the, the other things that are happening. But I do wonders, because they talk a lot about Magic users being damned, but they don't really specify what does damned mean. Like. So I think it's it's an interesting conversation to have, but I'm not sure that seeing a demon being summoned means that there's heaven and hell. I at least, not yet. But I don't know that you can really draw that conclusion over. Like they conjure a lot of things.
Speaker 3:Right, and and there's, there's many different monsters and stuff right in this world. There's we in the first chapter we got exposed to the bash rag, which is this thing that has like a head made of three heads. Yeah, I mean, I really love trying to picture that one, but I just I think that we have to be careful, using our own interpretation, using our you know, our worldview, or our own personal worldview, but because I I feel that in this world and also in our own world, there are so many religions, right, so to one religion, the outsider is a heathen Like I've I lived in, I lived in a place where I was a, you know, the majority was, was Muslim and I was viewed as a, you know, a heathen, actually Right, and and and that was, you know, it was fine, but Just because I was outside of that belief system and so like I feel like the Manseur in particular, and and and and. Then in Reethi I should say it's the in Reethi that that view anybody, because of what was written in the tusk, to say, if you do Sorcery or magic, you're not part of us. You're, you know you're, you're a sinner. They don't use that word, but that's for my Some like Catholic upbringing. I can't help, but you know so I, I think.
Speaker 3:My interpretation is that anything exists in this world. I'm not so sure if there's heaven or hell, and the question is who's heaven and who's hell? Because we also learned, this is so fascinating that there are these that non men lived like for a hundred, hundreds of lifetimes. So what is that? Like they don't die. I Mean there's so much going on here like like I, you know that I, you know I, a demon, could just be some other random thing. But yeah, arsha, you were gonna say something.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think you said everything. Yeah, that's essentially what I was gonna say too, that I don't think Demons at least my religion, for instance demons aren't a thing that only exists in Hell. They, in fact I don't know. If there are things in hell, it's they just exist in the world, right? So it depends on whether demons are a product of hell in this world, and Also the question of what does being damned mean? I think, yeah, I agree with you, mike, that it's not. Yeah, like every no. In this world there at least two religions, right, the ones that the one that the, the sylvan de follow, and these guys, and I suppose the non men, worship the same god that the sylvan de do, and so I don't think that's true.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 4:No, the non men. I don't think they this good when he worship the no God right the no, god the non. I don't think I'm on do who worships the.
Speaker 1:Is it the consult at the consult?
Speaker 4:on soul.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they're the priesthood of the no God, right? But yeah, okay, I have them all mixed up in my head. But you know, we know there are multiple religions. So the question of damnation is sort of religion specific, unless there's something that applies to the world as a whole and no matter what religion you follow, which also makes the question what religion do these so as to us follow? They are damned, apparently, by the men of the task, but do they have their own religion? Do they have gods they worship, or do they believe in the existence of said gods, like the, the manate schoolmen believe in the existence of the no God, but they don't worship them, right? So there's some very interesting questions. They're like what gods do they believe in? And, more than I guess, what form does atheism take in this world is also an interesting question. So, yeah, there's a lot there that I guess we could think about but don't really have answers to. But yeah, I don't agree that that's the only conclusion of the summoning of demons, that there is a hell.
Speaker 4:So I love everything you guys you said and I Agree with all of it. I'm kind of a fundamental level that I, because I also was like I I wasn't necessarily sure that that made it, you know, concrete. And I think the question of, like, what is damnation that Steve was posing is really interesting. Right, because, yeah, I mean, even within religions. Right, you have theologians, you know priests who Debate that, right, like I forget who was the famous quote, but like, some Christian theologian was like you know, hell is the absence of God and you know it's not like he's not alone, it like with his version of damnation or hell is not the only one. Right, like, you have the popular consciousness of like, oh it's. You know fire and brimstone and torturing and shit like that, and you know you have, I'm sure, versions that are just like, oh it's, you know, just like a void.
Speaker 4:You know, I mean as someone who personally doesn't believe in the afterlife, in sort of a spiritual sense. You know there's that additional layer of like, well, you know, like you were saying in Varsha, like what is what is an atheist? Like someone, like a camean, I guess, is like I'm very curious because he, he grew up in this culture, but he doesn't seemingly believe in the. The tusk is, at least as it's preached, but he Still has this sense that he is damned. You know, he carries this guilt and in the same thing, with scarlet spires, like, how do they View themselves, you know, in relation to the world, right, in relation to the cosmos, it's really interesting. And and again, mike, you made great points about you know what? How do you even define demons, right, like where, regardless of where these things even come from? You know, I believe it's pressure. Are you Hindu? I?
Speaker 1:grew up Hindu.
Speaker 4:So my understanding. I could be misquoting, but Zoroastrianism and Hinduism have like reverse like God sort of demon dynamics where, like once gods is, the others demons and vice versa. Do I have that correct by your understanding?
Speaker 1:I am not familiar enough with, so rush to an ism to say that. But like I don't know that, maybe, maybe, but I would have to think like Krishna, ganesh and all of those gods are as demons. I've, I've never heard that interpretation. I.
Speaker 4:I Was doing some I. That could be completely made up. I could be getting the religions wrong, it could be different faiths, but the you know. Again, just getting at the point, the idea that, like you know how you define demon changes, you know between faiths, you know how to find he then, right, it's fundamentally about your worldview, right, you know everyone else is a he then, and our people are not, and it's you know.
Speaker 4:It's a big question, I think, to reconcile here of like you know, how do we even define the demons?
Speaker 4:I know Stephen Erickson in the Melasin series no spoilers but they're demons and they're never given like a specific, like when they came from, thing. And he basically, when asked, was like you know, demons are just a broad name for like creatures that come from elsewhere. Right, I'm sort of this like Stereotype or like you know I don't want to say like slur or something like this it's just this like very broad, generic term for Aliens, in a sense like just beings that exist in other planes that end up in ours, and I, yeah, I mean again in the fact that we have aliens, it just like it adds a whole, another layer to like you know, how do you even begin to like define the cosmology and the different realms and like how it all works and like what is a demon? This place, right, like they just kind of broadly throw that out there and you know, and what is damnation you know, like Steve was saying, that's, it's a really interesting question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and I think, as far as I know, I could be wrong about this I don't think Hinduism has words for people who Aren't Hindu. You know, like the way Christianity does and I suppose Islam does. So in some religions it's not even a thing like what happens if you're not off the religion. I don't even think they have judgment against atheists Like this is what happened to you, it's all karma, and like rebirth, the cycle of rebirth and so on. So it's I and and again, like I Stopped being a practicing Hindu, like when I was very little. So I know very little about this, but but yeah, like that, that is a great point. Like what about religions who don't even have concepts of? Like what happens to those who don't follow said religion? Right, exactly, I mean, I think that's a great point.
Speaker 4:I think that's a great point Exactly, I mean the whole idea, like the whole word demon. I mean I don't know the etymology. I Imagine it goes back to like Greek, probably is my guess, but you know this is an imperfect word. You know. I mean, you see this with languages all the time, regardless of the language of like trying to apply the meaning of one word that has a very specific Meaning in a very specific context to then a different culture and a different belief system in a different language. You know, we're like using the word demon to talk about, you know again, like Demons as you define them, and like Hinduism or whatever it's like. It doesn't mean the same thing, right, and in fact is probably an imperfect Translation, regardless, just like culturally it's yeah anyway.
Speaker 1:Hinduism has done. What for demons it's? It's just scary-looking things, Things that you put faces that you put out at your house to ward off the evil eye. You know, there you go. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:A level entity, entity.
Speaker 2:I don't have to draw the conclusions. A bit of a leap.
Speaker 4:Losing you. Oh, we got a different angle, arsha.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think what. That camera's still on but apparently got disconnected. I'm, it's fine, I'll try and fix it. You guys keep talking.
Speaker 4:So anyone have anything else to say about that or spinning off in that I know, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:I wasn't gonna talk about that actually with. I was just gonna go back to the what I really appreciate. Just I don't want to like start all over again or whatever, but on in the first chapter I I was, I was very satisfied that a I come in reconnected with, with his people, I, for whatever reason I was really Desiring that to happen? I don't know why.
Speaker 3:But then they were like I thought I thought they were gonna be all you know like really flipping out, not Sarah, or what have, what have you? He was kind of like well, okay, that's, that's good to know, you should have told us. But okay, now it wasn't like such a big deal that he kind of hid this, this really important detail about Kellis. But I just I was, I really enjoyed the, the dream sequence, like I just love I don't know why, but I just love these dream sequences and they give us kind of bring us back to what we were discussing a glimpse into what this world has had been or what, what is possible. And I love how Baker kind of opens up the chat. That looks like that.
Speaker 3:I think you did the same in warrior prophet and it's not that we come back to the dreams a lot. But I think dreams For for the mandate, of course, or you know, it's just like they. It's kind of like they're reliving. They're obviously they're reliving this, a thought, this life or whatever. But apparently you can, you can also see what the other person is dreaming and then kind of like comment and speak and get like interact and anyway. But I Just really wanted to say like I love that.
Speaker 4:Did. Oh yeah, I've loved how Baker's dealt with the dreams, and then you know the flashbacks therein and like it's just so cool and adding that additional layer, that they can talk to each other and each other's dreams, which is like, oh, that's so cool it's and I and I will just throw out there again.
Speaker 4:I've said this once or twice before, but like I continue to wonder. You know, our memories in real life are very imperfect. The more we learn about them, the more we study them, the more we find out that they are inaccurate and they continue to change over time. And I wonder are these memories just magically perfectly Exactly as they happened, or can they also change?
Speaker 4:and they also be manipulated, you know. Or what we've seen. If says Walthers memories, are they perfect or are they like? Are they exactly as things happened Objectively, or are they like history, a narrative of what happened? That maybe Can change, you know, depending on any number of factors, even just time. But that's all I'll say. Sorry, varsha, you were gonna say something.
Speaker 1:I was gonna start a slightly new topic. Let's finish talking about this.
Speaker 3:I was just commenting on chapter one, that about in and and they were. We were getting introduced to all these like monsters and beings and the not not the non-man Mceritrig and he's got his all of dead bodies or whatever. Anyway, that was just, but I didn't have too much else to add. I just one of those things that I just was like I'm so glad I'm reading this again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:I'll go ahead. I'm sorry, oh.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say, speaking of dream sequences, the Sequence it wasn't quite a dream sequence, but now you're. And the reappearance of survey but I think that's a new topic says Steve, do you want to go first?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'll just really quickly comment on the non-man on page six. To understand the soul of a non-man, the philosopher Cogada progress passing I had once written only one only need bear the back of an old and arrogant slave. Scars, scars upon scars. This is what made them mad, all of them.
Speaker 2:Hmm a little bit peek into the non-man, but I did. As we were talking about saswatha and memories, I Did kind of occur to me that there is a little bit of a parallel between saswatha and the confusion. It seemed a commune mentions that he feels like he's becoming saswatha and I wonder if there's any, if you guys have noticed any parallels between saswatha and the no God on how they seem a little confused. All of them do, oh, definitely.
Speaker 1:When did you did that happen? Did saswatha's confusion happen in the last five pages, or was it in the first chapter?
Speaker 2:No, not, not, they don't really mention it, just in general, like they, there seems to be a bit of confusion and conveyance of memories and recalling what had happened and oh, oh, like.
Speaker 4:There's this sense of almost, like. I Don't know if the dementia is the right word, but they're, I mean certainly the no God. There seems to be a level of like, almost senility To him which, again, you know books later. I'm still like, taken back by that. I Agree, you know.
Speaker 4:I think the question of like, again going back to kind of what I was posing earlier, I don't think I'm pulling this out of my ass. I think we should be wondering are these men? You know what? How accurate are these memories? You know, I don't even think they're like, I'm not like proposing that they're completely made up or anything like that, but that Things may be skewed, right, and that you know with how long you live. I mean, you put up a great point, see, which is like, or a parallel that occurred to me, which maybe you were getting at too, which is like, if you live long enough, like saswatha's memories, like the non-men, like the no God, what does that do to your memories? You know, like these memories, last generations after generations, scars upon scars, right? What does this do to the mandate you know, as an organization?
Speaker 1:So what I'm interested in is how they inherit Seishwata's memories. Is there like some central source that they each inherit from? And then there is still a possibility of corruption because the sorcerer's personality gets applied on it. So what? It seems that the events of the world dictate what dreams they see, but it's also down to the interpretation and what they focus on during the dream. Maybe they are Seishwata, so they see what he sees every single time. But yeah, is it handed down from schoolman to schoolman, in which case there's so much more scope for corruption.
Speaker 4:Other thing, Tain, I'm so glad, Mike, you brought up this because I've forgotten all the things that happened. In this opening flashback dream thing, they talk about the Heron Spear again. Where is the Heron Spear? I'm telling you again. I said this way back in like Book 1, when this first came up. There is a parallel.
Speaker 4:I forget what it's called the spear that was used mythically to like stab Jesus. It's quote unquote found in the first crusade at the Battle of Jerusalem. And when everyone's hopes are like the lowest, the crusaders are like, convinced they're losing. They've been in this horrible, long siege. Someone finds the spear and quote finds the spear and suddenly morale gets boosted and they win the battle, they win the siege, they take Jerusalem. I called this shot way back that someone was going to find this and it was going to be a big deal. I'm calling it again now. I'm resummiting this that when they're outside Shimei, someone is going to find the Heron Spear. It may or may not actually be the Heron Spear, but someone is going to find it and it's going to be a huge moment for them.
Speaker 3:Got to be kill. Let's see if he found the water, remember From the water in the desert.
Speaker 4:Yes, totally it's got to be kill, or Nair, random left field guest, maybe Nair, I don't know why. I'm just like pulling that out of my ass, but I just have this weird feeling that, like what is Nair going to do in the next? I guess he's staying back.
Speaker 3:Nair is going back to.
Speaker 4:Momin right. Yeah, ignore me, I totally forgot that he was separating so never mind.
Speaker 1:But he did say he's going to ignore those audits.
Speaker 3:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Didn't he? He said he's not going to listen to them. Okay, I don't remember. For some reason, I thought he was.
Speaker 4:I don't know. I thought he was falling through, but maybe I don't know. Nair is always like thinking two things at once yeah.
Speaker 2:Was it the Spear of Destiny that was at the Spear?
Speaker 4:That might be the yeah, the Nair. That sounds right, it's again. This is like one of the famous moments from the first Crusade Calling that shot, was it?
Speaker 1:the Spear of Destiny again, I don't remember.
Speaker 4:It was one of the Spears that one of the soldiers Roman soldiers used to stab Jesus when he was crucified. Oh, I see, okay, and so you know it was supposed to be. You know it was like drenched in his holy blood and so it has like magical properties basically. And I mean, we don't know what the Heron Spear is exactly, other than it was, like, you know, the big weapon that I believe one of the Honissering Boars used or something like that, but it you know similar sort of thing.
Speaker 3:I think it was the weapon that defeated the no God oh you're right, it's what killed the.
Speaker 4:No God, you're right, that's right there.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I'm like. I have so many things so muddled in my head. For some reason I thought the spear belongs to no God. What's going on? I'm really glad we're doing these discussions to set me straight. I think the no God worships. No, the non men worship the known God. No, that's wrong.
Speaker 4:You're not totally mixed up, because there are some non men we found out as of the end of the warrior prophet who are with the consult and we see McCarrotrig here is crazy and maybe on their side. I'd have to reread it to see exactly. I don't think it's wrong that, like, maybe some of them worship or at least like are on his the no God side. Whatever that is right Because, like what the console they're doing may not be what the no God wants. The no God is demanded Like who knows what he wants, you know, like I don't know he's like or something you know like.
Speaker 3:He's kind of just like, kind of does whatever, and I guess I don't know right Doesn't seem to have.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Go ahead.
Speaker 1:He didn't like being woken up last time.
Speaker 4:The old man. That's what he is. I, yeah, I again, I don't think. I don't think the console is necessarily acting. I think they're acting independent of, like they're not being directed by the no God is what I'll say. I think that they are actively trying to use the no God rather than the reverse.
Speaker 1:So they're not the aliens, are they this? No, the aliens and the incur are related to the console. How?
Speaker 4:they are. They are the console.
Speaker 1:They are the console I can be.
Speaker 4:Are the the console to like the top dogs, like again, if you know, the wheel of time. They're like the Forsaken, like lead the movement I could totally be wrong about that and the incur are specific race or species of aliens that came down and, I think, made the strong. I may be misremembering or misreading that, but I believe they literally like genetically engineered the strong using their like old science and that's how we also have the skin spies and stuff is they use, like some sort of magic science, magitech.
Speaker 4:I don't know, we don't know how it works, but they, they use what the old science technique to make a bunch of like abominations, essentially including, I think, the dragons. I think the dragons were also made. It's a lot of that I'm a little bit hazy on.
Speaker 1:But and who were the people who discovered the remnants of the incoro is research and therefore awakened to no God. There was some school, yeah it was?
Speaker 4:it was humans. I beyond that. Okay, it was humans, because the non men fought and then, like, sealed them away and put a glamour over everything so no one would find it. And then humans found it anyway and woke him up.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. So and the console? Did the humans do that?
Speaker 4:No, the men right console are alive. They humans thought they died, they thought they destroyed them, they thought they're gone, but they've been living in secret. We don't know where. Gall in, probably at least partially Gago to wrath, which is the city where the no God got awakened, I believe, or was that? Where that? Yes? And, but that's their big, you know base, that's their headquarters and yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of pieces.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, there's a big position dump at the end of the second book.
Speaker 5:Okay, I did write some some but I won't read it.
Speaker 3:But it's when a commune is speaking like for me it's like like three or four pages worth after 24. Okay, there's a huge glossary by the way in this book, but I think it's spoiler filled, like I'm not touching.
Speaker 4:I noticed that too. I was shocked. This book is not that this is the shortest book. Yeah, it has an enormous glossary, so I definitely I'm with you, mike. I think I would not delve into it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to read it. I like that kind of crap. I don't know why. Like I love the maps and all the annexes and all that. Like, if a book doesn't have that, I'm like, not a. I hear you, I know some people.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure the glossary is spoiler free, so you need to really, yeah, everyone except those who don't know that you can do that.
Speaker 3:But I've Called a In part, there's no point in bringing anything down there, just so that they can try to, and it's a fun couple with guys.
Speaker 2:And Daniel that's your first and earlier, I think remain so real and we Are very curious about what you read, about you just kind of insanized, who know you would not have read, and I think it's kind of like.
Speaker 3:Dan, like Dan and Daniel.
Speaker 1:Yeah like the Dan of this group.
Speaker 3:Okay, Some other interesting stuff we got to talk about Zarius's mom.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, that was really going to be the next thing I brought up, yeah, oh yeah, that's the dream sequence I wanted to bring up, not the survey one.
Speaker 3:It was real.
Speaker 1:So did I. Was this a dream or was it was real right? Yeah. And was it, I think, sometime in the warrior prophet? I was like why is she asking so many questions about how he caught chaos? Is she consult herself? And then, like I kind of ruled it out in my head because, like, what the hell is the point of planting multiple? Maybe she was planted after chaos was found, I don't know, but that was terrifying.
Speaker 4:I get the sense that in book one she was herself. But maybe not. I don't know. Maybe we'll go back and see that she wasn't. She was acting strange or something, but I think between book one and two is when the switch happened.
Speaker 1:Do you think it was after a scale? Okay, yeah, between books. End of book one is when we discovered chaos. Yeah, and it was sometime in book two, when before or after he went on that procession, that she sat there and had all these questions about how he caught chaos. And that's when I suspected her of being consult with. I can't say I'm happy to have that be true.
Speaker 3:Meeting up to it was going to be very awkward and gross. I was like, wow, I didn't want to keep reading. And then I was like, oh, okay, because they were going to sleep together or he wanted to have sex with her, and then you know, I guess she was into it. It's hard to tell.
Speaker 4:But that was some of the things, though that like it was tough to tell at first where like the dividing line was between like him just being a weird Pervert with like weird sexual trauma around his mother, and because I just remember when I was reading that that the language started sounding a lot like all the other weird consultee sex scenes we've seen where, like rape scenes you could call them that like where there's the sex magic, you know, whatever the weird thing that like influences, like the hormones and pheromones and whatever is going on there. It's not really fully defined. It started reading to me a little bit like that and so I wondered and I will confess I mean I didn't guess it like way in advance, but once that started I was like things are a little weird here. This is a little sus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, she, yeah, I noticed that too. Like I don't know about the comparison with the other consult sex scenes Like I don't know about the language, I didn't notice that, but as I'm not saying it's not that I didn't notice it, but the other bits it did feel like you know she was putting on some I don't know putting out some feelers, like she looks different to him and looks younger to him. There's a lot of suggestion there and you know we must remember that they are a race of lovers up at cheese.
Speaker 4:Well, and to be clear, I, when I talk about the language, like I don't even mean specific, like words or anything, but just that like I mean I guess I do mean words. It's not that I noticed specific patterns outside of the sexuality becomes out of the characters control. Almost it's like they're overwhelmed. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4:It's like intense animal urge, where every other sex scene we've had it's not described like that. It's almost clinical or it's emotional, if it's like a came in and as Menette. But it's like suddenly, when there's like they have an encounter with one of these consult sex demon things, you know they suddenly are overwhelmed with lust, like they can't help themselves. It's just becomes their entire focus and it seems to be a pattern. I've noticed that, like as soon as they start just like acting like that's all they think about. They can't control themselves. There's lots of interesting descriptions of penises that I'm like okay, this is it. Or like we're dealing with a console here, the phallus. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it's a lot of juxtaposition of which is very awkward for the reader of, you know, heightened, heightened sexuality or heightened feelings, sexual feelings but also crossed with wanting to kill, wanting, you know yeah, violence mass, yeah, mass murder, violence, and that's what's kind of very visceral, I think, to the reader great point.
Speaker 4:No, absolutely. Yeah, there's always that element of violence with the console.
Speaker 1:The glossary at the end for non men it says the chronicle of dusk, which records the coming of non men to ear were, generally refers to non men as Oseruki, the not us. Not us Sorry, sorry for that.
Speaker 3:No aggression.
Speaker 3:But yes, I'm really interested in the non men. I find I think that they have what I, what I read also in like the book one, is they can't or maybe, maybe somewhere else. They kind of switch sides, like at one point they were. They were like we, they saw the men as like we made. We were the shepherd of men, we made the men, but then they turned against us. So they've kind of had this troubled past with. So they're not, they've not always been you know, consults or I don't. I'm not even convinced that they're all that. They're all bad. I mean, I find them to be very enigmatic at this point and we don't know enough about them.
Speaker 3:I guess maybe, if not this book, maybe it's the next series, I don't know.
Speaker 4:I definitely divide that. That's where we're headed next series non men stuff.
Speaker 3:Really anxious to hear, see what, what, what gets settled at the end of this one. I couldn't help but thinking over the last two weeks like we're going to find out. Like all of these things, there's a lot of loose ends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was a scene with Nathanette and two boys that was interesting one of whom got enslaved, I guess because they were so eager to see him.
Speaker 4:So this this, I will say, was probably my big, the thing that rubbed me the wrong way the most, where I just felt like what? Like we got important news there about Nathanette leaving and there was, there was like good writing, but I was like did we really need a scene of like a kid getting like kidnapped or raped or like you know? I mean, I think it's less a little bit like it just was like did something horrible have to happen there? At the end? It just felt excessive to me and the series sometimes skates that line where like I'm like did you have to do that?
Speaker 4:You know, and a lot of the time I like it's always done intentionally, right, and like obviously we're dealing with really dark themes and really dark ideas and overall it I'm okay, like I can get through it. But like there's that scene in particular is like we're just creating these two new sweet little orphan boys just to have one of them get murdered or raped or both, just to tell us Nathanette is leaving, like it just it just felt so I don't know. It's like it would just rub me the wrong way reading that, where I was like why, why? Like, why are we doing this? That it doesn't add anything to the story.
Speaker 1:I think I agree with you. I feel like that maybe it wasn't super necessary. But also, I guess one additional point it seems to be making is how desperately these boys wanted to see Nathanette, just catch a glimpse of him, that they were willing to just getting pulled into slavery or whatever horrible thing might await them there. At least one of them seem to be eager enough to do that and bad things happen, like the thing they feared happened to them as a result. And maybe there's some additional commentary there about you know, like faith doesn't save you from bad things. I don't know, but, but I feel like that's being made elsewhere.
Speaker 4:So this is that's my point is, like all the things you could take from that scene, thematically, emotionally, anything we're getting elsewhere, like we're seeing the way that, like faith drives people into dangerous situations, and like we've seen children get killed, we saw baby get blown up last book, like I, you know, I just it just felt like unnecessary, just unnecessary, like that's just it, just like on that, like, even if it was, I guess, even if it wasn't so horrible, it's so horrible.
Speaker 4:I guess that makes it me have a more visceral reaction to it. But like I just don't know what it added, like it didn't feel, like it necessarily added anything, like it didn't develop. I was hoping almost for like some added things with the console as fucked up as it probably would have gotten, you know, just like get some new lore or something. But it was just like, okay, we're going to look through these orphans eyes and see that may, then that is leaving, like that seemed to be, the big development was made, the net is leaving and there are other ways we could have found that out. Like we could have found that out from the POV of one of our characters, like just getting news that may the net had left, or something. You know I.
Speaker 3:I don't know. It could have been a surprise if that's their only POV. We don't hear about them again. I totally agree with you. I wonder If, because one of them said the father was killed. So I thought, oh, maybe that's one of the characters that and that's going to be revealed later or something. I don't know, but I Will see.
Speaker 4:I will. I will totally take back everything if it ends up coming back later. I just had the instinct because we occasionally do get this in other books where you just like briefly, have a throw away POV, and If this isn't throw away and there's more than okay, I take it back. You know, I might still feel a little icky about it, but I would take it back. I just had the feeling that the only thing we're getting there was that may, then that is leaving, but we'll see. I may totally be wrong about that.
Speaker 1:I agree with you I, if it comes back, that's great. If not, I I failed to see the necessity of it. I think, yeah, I also, not to beat a dead horse, but a service character. I failed to see the necessity of how a character was treated. But I think, as complaints go, they're very small for me. Overall, I am still really enjoying the series quite.
Speaker 4:No, definitely not. It's not, like you know, certainly far from a deal breaker. It's just something that you know. I think it's worth bringing up. Sometimes, you know, when Something, something bothers you for whatever reason, particularly the series this good, we're like there's so much that's and we've been raving right talking about the mysteries in the world, building the characters, and there's so much. That's wonderful that, like you know, sometimes you have to talk about what maybe doesn't sit with you as well.
Speaker 3:One of the things I wanted to mention and this is really because I'm not totally sure what happened or maybe it'll be revealed later but the Zainimas Well, right before that I guess we learned that has this fight with. I guess I think was the guy that that. Oh yeah, torture Zainimas in book two. But we so I guess I came in, gets his eyes, gets his eyeballs and gives them to, I guess, and then, but then did we did he did we did?
Speaker 3:I understand that like he has the, so Zainimas has the guy's eyeballs and he puts them in his head and then it cuts to, cuts back to the scarlet spires people and they're like, yeah, it's like our plan worked or something. So like I did I just totally so. Do I understand that? Like now Zainimas is using this other dude's eyes and like and is he like gonna spy on them or like I'm totally? I was a little bit confused with that one side Maybe to be revealed later but I was a little bit. I found it interesting and not complaining, but I wondered what your take on that was that was a very confused.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was confused by that scene too, but I didn't think they planned for the eyes to be taken and used and I don't know cinema's stuck or Zainimas. He stuck the eyes to his face. I don't know what he intends to achieve from that Other than the suit based revenge dying his cloak black, but the scarlet spires. I thought what he said was if you remember the words, you're still whole, right. What I understood from that is if you can still do your sorcery, your whole.
Speaker 1:That feels like that's how I do much of a whole something for him to say so.
Speaker 4:They're friends, if you remember. There I mean they're like assholes, so that you know the way of their friends is not very nice, but they talk about you know he's like I know this is like all of us is like right hand man basically. I yeah, I saw that more he's like comforting him.
Speaker 4:I didn't see, it is like the plan succeeded, you know, or anything like this was intended. I think he did warn him. Right, you warned them is like he's coming for you. You, you know, Kamiyan is like he's on a warpath. You know, and I did think it was very dark and I'm again very Greek tragedy that he took the Iocus' eyes and gave them to Zen. I totally missed that. Zen put him in his head Somehow. When I read it I just thought completely I missed that. I don't think he can see out of them because it didn't seem like a Kamiyan did any magic or anything that would make that work. But I don't know. Yeah, I guess we'll find out.
Speaker 4:I think Zen's just nuts.
Speaker 3:I mean because he just said he's like he was very drunk. I know that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean he's having he was very drunk and he was saying open, open and like the fact that it came in flood, like that's the word choice you use a Kamiyan slipped through the door and fled makes me think the eyes aren't actually like working. Zen is just crazy. Like he's just he's drunk and he's still grief, stricken over losing his sight and was doing some crazy stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep I don't know. But I feel like that's going to turn into him seeing somehow Somehow, I don't know. Thank you yeah.
Speaker 1:That might just work, not in the way he intends, but some magic way that will maybe foil their plans in the last minute. So here's the thing. You have these. What day is X? Makina, the things that come out of nowhere to help you. I feel like these things are probably the opposite that things. These things will come to in the series Somehow. I feel like if something is set up in other cities, I'd feel like, oh, that's going to save them later here, it's like, oh, that's going to ruin them later.
Speaker 4:Yes, Diabolus X Makina, I believe, is the term you're talking about. But to be fair, if it's set up, it's not coming out of nowhere.
Speaker 3:Diabolus is right, it's Diabolus X.
Speaker 4:Makina yeah, exactly, I don't know. I mean that would be interesting. I don't know what that would like. I feel you, though, that like it's like. You feel like at any time like oh God, this is going to come back and like bite them in the blood, like I don't know how, but it's going to. So, yeah, I kind of feel like Xen is just going to be this like sad figure, kind of like pathetic. Like the right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, exactly he's someone who just got damaged. You know, trying to do the right thing honestly. He was a likable person who just tried to save his friends and that was a mistake.
Speaker 1:So that's okay. That cycle or chain of drama is also interesting because Akami in some ways is behaving within like Esmenet is behaving with him. Yeah. I mean not exactly because Akami hasn't found fulfillment elsewhere, but they had a friendship and he's totally not respecting that now, Probably in the protecting himself department, from guilt, from having to deal with the consequences whatever it is, but once again, not very compassionate or empathetic moves on either character.
Speaker 4:I agree that Akami and could be doing more Like, for example, in that scene he probably should have not run away. He should have like hugged Xen or like you know, just like tried to be there for him. But I do think it's slightly different in that Akami is trying to do something in his own mess that like he took the guy's eyeballs. You know, like that was like okay. First of all, take a second to just imagine. You know you've been blinded, you're a drunkard now. You know, you're just miserable all the time.
Speaker 4:And then suddenly the one guy who comes and talks to you maybe Proyas does too, I forget, but he walks in and he just hands you two things and it's these like sticky, wet orbs and you're like, oh, you know, you have no idea that's coming. You know maybe he's told you he's gonna take the guy's eyeballs, but you like you're just there, you're just drinking, getting shit faced, and you just suddenly have eyeballs in your hands. Crazy Akami, crazy move Akami. But anyway, I'm pointing again being that like he's trying to do something in his just like really messed up way where I almost feel like Esmenet just kind of wants Akami and gone, other than like first practice and not like out of like a hateful way, but out of like a. You know I don't wanna be vulnerable and you make me vulnerable way. But yeah, I mean Akami's not being a good friend I would agree, but I do feel like he's trying. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Maybe, maybe. Yeah, I mean he brought Zen.
Speaker 4:you know he brought him back with him, he helped him along. He's like made sure he's been cared for, so that counts.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he certainly isn't being very emotionally supportive. But I mean, how many of these men have we seen actually have like an emotional or women, for that matter, you know have an emotional, like heart to heart? These characters don't know how to talk about their feelings. None of them are, they're all. It's just like it's not in their language. They don't know how to function in that way. Yeah, except for Keles Freaking Keles knows how to do it with everyone else's feelings. It's you get me.
Speaker 1:I mean he has not enough of his own.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he's the worst therapist.
Speaker 3:I think Nayur does have outbursts about his feelings, although he doesn't understand what he's going through, but he is. He definitely expresses himself. He gets duped in this one by the console right and then he gets a visit by the I'm not sure what that character is called the crow with the human head. The synthies, is it like the yeah, it's like the.
Speaker 4:Got his name at some point, but I don't remember what it was Crap. Yeah, yeah. When he uses this.
Speaker 1:Trying to pull an air to his cause. Does he almost accept, do I don't? I don't remember what happens ever. Does he accept?
Speaker 4:I do just for the drama. I do like the idea of an air joint in the console, Not knowing what I Although I don't feel like he would ever be able to keep that a secret from Keles like I feel like Keles would look at him and be like, OK, you betrayed me time to die. Like you know, I will see. I'm sure that's. We're going to see the fallout in this. This is set up at the start right, so we're going to see that art play out.
Speaker 3:I mean, he is the only one that can kind of like knows how to avoid Keles he can make. So maybe he is the right, maybe he's going to be turned to and and we know that the skill Vendee's God is the is the no God right? Or they have something along those lines. That's interesting. Yeah, I didn't think of that. Hmm.
Speaker 1:So I've been reading Dune and I see so many more similarities than we notice before. The like Eochus and Elisarius, that the Harkunin and his mentat, who is addicted to spice? Eochus is addicted to the name of the substance was Sean. How do you say that? Yeah, that's interesting yeah.
Speaker 3:I was thinking of doing Messiah, but I don't want to give it away for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Carl knows.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I know, I know. I know.
Speaker 3:That's related to what we were discussing earlier. I don't want to say yeah, this is.
Speaker 4:This is not a spoiler, but we do. I think they're mentioned in the first book but there are face dancers who are basically shape shifting assassins. Baker has been straight up, like Ian. Interview was like the skin spies are the face dancers, Like I just took that. I was like I mean, he did his own thing. Clearly he has. Is the weird aliens I do. How's your?
Speaker 2:thing going on. Yeah, but it's. There's a lot there.
Speaker 4:Definitely these books that if you, if you know you're doing in your Lord of the Rings, you can definitely see the influences he plucks and twists and you know same thing with the first crusade you can see, or a Hellenic kind of that. There's a lot of interesting things he's pulled from. I mean blood meridian is an influence as well.
Speaker 3:I read it last year and it comes up and even there's some words that he uses like so this is not a spoiler. They wrote on his in book two that said probably 30 times and blood meridian, because you know they're on horses and all of that. But there's a lot of connections there and that is one of the things that he's been working on. He's been working on a lot of the connections there and that is one of the quotes at the beginning of this book.
Speaker 4:So he must be influenced by Kormak McCarthy as well. I just started reading my first Kormak McCarthy all the pretty horses. I think I'm enjoying it. At first I was like whoa, his is his style, which I knew going in was weird. But like I, I really struggled with it for, like the first, like 30 pages, and once you like, get into it kind of similar to this book, like very different styles, but you know, once you kind of get a feel for like the pros, it flows really well. I'm quite enjoying all the pretty horses. It's I don't like Westerns but I am enjoying it. So I'm definitely going to move on to blood meridian, which I understand is his most challenging but also his best. Not it's so good, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to read it.
Speaker 3:It's what's that.
Speaker 2:Let me know when you start it.
Speaker 3:I'll reread it. I'm serious yeah.
Speaker 4:I, I, I don't know. I mean certainly the next few months. Well, my plan is to get to it.
Speaker 3:I don't reread books actually, but that's one that I was like. I am going to reread this more than once. It's very dark and I guess not for everybody, so but Steve Stevie might like it.
Speaker 4:Hell, yeah. Yeah, let's do it. It'd be a fun thing to read together so we can all endure the trauma. You know like we are serious.
Speaker 1:I brought it out because I saw the blood meridian quote and I was like, oh, I probably need to read this. I have it here, ready to go.
Speaker 4:There you go.
Speaker 2:So somewhere.
Speaker 4:I'm sure. I'm sure you definitely get. I mean, like you've said, mike, you get more out of it. That's something I really appreciate is like these books stand on their own, like they're their own story very much. They're unique enough, you know. But but you can see the influences and Baker like doesn't try to hide them, like he's open about them and it in a way there's a didactic element where you can kind of see the other authors he's in dialogue with you know the other stories, the way that influences this, his story and his world and the philosophies of it. It's it's a lot of fun to dig into and definitely adds to this series.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it improves upon some things too from there or expands on them in sort of new ways, kind of like with the, the, the famous Gom Jabbar scene, where we try to determine whether our main character is a human or an animal, and I think that's essentially the darkness that comes before Right and the translation. I think it's almost like a series of stories that are the translation.
Speaker 1:I think it's almost better the way Baker does it. They're different, they're different treatments of the same thing, but I almost like it more because I understand more what he's trying to say. I think with with her, but it was almost up to our interpretation, which, which is nice. You can define what human versus animal means to you, and that's what this is, other than like the one that is mentioned in the book, which is the ability to behave differently, Like if you're primal instincts tell you to do something and you have to choose to do something else.
Speaker 4:But I think it's. It's exactly that sort of thing, in that they approach it differently and I agree that sort of the idea of the darkness that comes before adds an additional philosophical layer to it. It's kind of exploring that idea of like, because it goes beyond even just like animal instincts and to sort of these like emotional, cyclical. Some of it's evolutionary, some of it is just like these psychological elements, you know that, that fill the darkness.
Speaker 4:But the Gom Javarsi and I've always, yeah, definitely read is just are you able to resist your, your pain? You know your fear, I mean you feel the pain like you can't literally resist it, but are, are you able to resist the need to run away from it? Can you face the pain, can you confront it and let it, you know, like fear, pass over you, which I thought the movie the recent part, one of the movie I think, did the scene even better in the book just because of how visceral it is. And then the inner cutting with Lady Jessica doing the litany of fear I just think perfectly nails what that scene is about and is, I think, the best scene in that movie. I love that movie but I just think the way that scene was done was like just peak, peak cinema, you know, the interplay of like the cutting and the acting and just all of it. I just thought just played out wonderfully. But you're, you're so right, I hadn't even connected those ideas. The darkness that comes before and kind of those animal, the Gom Javarsi, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it's really cool. I like and I have to read a lot of the rings and then find the influences everywhere else, because with Dune I'm finding it everywhere All the fantasy books that I read recently fantasy, it's distinctly not sci-fi, but anyway, Steve, do you have quotes for us? Oh, sorry, Mike.
Speaker 3:No, dune totally influenced Star Wars as well, I think the egg time. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Quotes from time.
Speaker 2:No, I always like to mention the, the the tunic quote. There was one on 27. I tell you, guilt dwells nowhere, but in the eyes of the accuser.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that. I had a few. I underlined too, but I don't notice page numbers. I don't write down page numbers. Oh, this one about jealous. What would they do now that the hallowed scripture could talk back?
Speaker 4:All of the epigraphs are good. You know, at chapter four, like a stern father war shames men into hating their childhood games, which you know. I don't know.
Speaker 4:I don't even know that that is always true. I think, like you know, I definitely know some veterans who have like found escape, you know, and I guess you could say like fantasy and things like that. But I do think that there is some truth to the idea that, like you know whether it's war, like I think you could translate into other sort of traumatic events that it suddenly makes the idea that, like, when you play at any of those things certainly again, war is the obvious one Like you play at violence, you play at these things, suddenly makes you like it can make you hate. You know the childhood fantasy, the idea that like it's not so horrible. I definitely thought that that was a quite profound insight.
Speaker 1:I thought that observation was apt, given how Espinette felt with the commune versus. Kelly's, but it also made it slightly more heartbreaking for a commune because he realizes that he's inadequate, you know.
Speaker 2:And she's not helping him feel any better about it. How do?
Speaker 1:you compete against Kelly's though. You don't. Yeah, you can't, you can't. I mean this is interesting, kelly's and maybe we discussed it a little bit earlier, but Espinette was in a three way relationship with Kelly's, so she could technically be with a commune and Kelly's, but I don't think I think she was willing to share Kelly's. I don't think she wants to split her affection.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I agree, but I think it's different the dynamic there.
Speaker 3:I think the door is open with Kelly's because if it's to his advantage you know we've already seen what he did with Sarway- yeah, we could definitely use Espinette to like romantically, sexually, get a commune if he feels he needs to.
Speaker 4:I agree, I could see that happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like with Kelly's it's almost like each person can feel like they have an individual and a private relationship with him, like he's capable of making them feel like that, like they are the only person he has affection for, or that they are significant enough that it feels enough. But so it sounds like there's enough of him to go around, but not enough of Espinette to split between the two.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:Any more, steve, I agree with Carl. All the epigraphs are really nice.
Speaker 2:There was a couple of the ones, but it was a couple of the, a few of the tabs, but it was mostly just story points and events.
Speaker 1:Did you already say this one? There was no greater tyranny the memorial is said than that exercised by slaves over slaves. Did we do that one already? No, we're doing page 48. Yeah, and was it? Yeah, nair about sorry about, I think, kelly's his doubt over what Kelly's does, says, but how could Lies do such a thing that he's convinced that Kelly's is lying to the world? How can Lies bring about the result that Kelly's does? I think that's what that is, if I remember correctly, but I don't have the full context with. There's a lot of good lines in this one. I have highlights and underline everything.
Speaker 4:Just every line you read, that's it. Oh man, wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's not as bad as I've made it up, but there's that paragraph, for instance. Steve's going to be angry at me, but look at that.
Speaker 4:Vandalizing your own book. Yeah, unbelievable Hug for you. Not the sacred texts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just easier than keeping a notebook. I have to carry it around with me and then sometimes I leave it upstairs and then, out of laziness, I'll have to stop logging it. Yeah, it's just easier to write in the book I already have.
Speaker 4:I respect people who take notes, just in general. I can never do it with like with, with books, with. I play Dungeons and Dragons with friends and I'm I'm not one of the people who takes notes. I will be in so much trouble. A couple of my friends didn't take notes. I one of my laziness is, I guess, one of my vices. It's I just well, I have no desire to do it.
Speaker 3:You remember things much better than people like myself, so if I didn't take notes, I would have nothing to say.
Speaker 4:I, I, sometimes, I, I definitely fall. I trap myself in corners sometimes, but Names I'm rough with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I was going to say the. That must mean that you have great confidence in your memory, which is nice, because I need to write things down to remember them, Even if it's just I wrote it down at some point. That helps me remember better. I may never go look up the notes, but writing it down helps.
Speaker 4:What I have confidence in is that I will remember something if it matters, and that's not always true. I have gotten in trouble, but that's my general POV. That's my darkness that comes before. On that note, I will say I've started being able to differentiate the different nations and ethnic groups. I've realized of the not the Kyanine beyond, just like they have a whole bunch of tribes and stuff but of the, and in Rithi Crusaders, that I've realized. I've started being like oh, I see that, like the T doni, like I know what their deal is like, that you know that's those are the people who wear like the heads on their belts and things like that. Like.
Speaker 4:I'm like okay. So I got to give credit to Baker that you know I remember in book one being like I don't, like I can't. I have no idea the differences between these. I hope if it matters, you know, I'll sort of pick up on them Over time. It's just like gradually kind of started absorbing that information. So I got to give a shout out to my man, our Scott Baker it's. I mean, I imagine it's even clearer obviously on read throughs when it's like kind of cemented more, but it I can kind of follow along better. I've noticed.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice, I'm not there yet, I doubt that I will be, but honestly, like, I think for me what's interesting is that it's not strictly necessary. You know I'm not there yet, but it's not. It's not affecting my understanding or enjoyment of the story. Like, sure, I got all my non men and consult affiliations muddled up, but I think when it becomes important I will get it. You know, like there were battles where I thought some group were cleaning but it turned out they were not and I was like, yeah, I got that from the context, I don't need to remember this and it's not super important to the rest of the story. So, yeah, I like that. I like that even though there's a lot, the general structure is not hard to follow.
Speaker 4:It is interesting that, like kind of the yeah, like the main plot arc is rather straightforward, you know, I mean it's just we're going to the city and taking everything on our path, you know, and while this is happening, we're releasing the previous two books. It's callus. I'm going to take over everything as part of this movement. Like.
Speaker 4:I'm going to win over everyone and you can just see it all as things go along. You know developing it is, it's not too. I do think that there's something to be said there that like there are a lot of complexities, like a lot, but the actual like overarching plot is like straightforward and definitely helps make it more palatable. I think it easier to follow on and like get invested in.
Speaker 1:Yep, that makes sense. I'm eager to read on, find out some more. Meanwhile, where can people find all of you while we read up during the next week? I guess we'll start with Carl this time. Go backwards.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you can find me on social media at Carl D Albert, and you can find me at the page to inform where I would prefer to talk to you, certainly over Twitter or X. And yeah, I believe that's all I need to say.
Speaker 1:Mike.
Speaker 3:Yeah, similarly, you can also find me on the page to a forum and I will just mention briefly that you can listen to Steve and myself talk about comics on the page to a comics and manga and we have a segment called weekly. Weekly polls.
Speaker 2:Yes, nice play there, Mike.
Speaker 3:How did I do, steve? Did I do okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to take over for me. No way, no, you will. I'm doing page chewing, film chewing or page chewing, comics and manga, the podcast, and I did finish Truth of Crowns. No one can see me holding up the book, but we are ready to discuss it soon and if you enjoy tragedy and grief, then you are.
Speaker 4:It is a sad book. A lot of people die.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's just stay tuned for that and yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:And you can find me on the page chewing forum. I am also working my way through calls, but I have about 100 and 100 ish pages left. Will be there for the discussion soon. Yeah, other than that, you can find me on my YouTube channel reading by 3D Mountain and links to our podcast, speculative speculations and another sci fi podcast all on the channel. And well, the other sci fi podcast is just our SF Masterworks podcastified. But, yeah, and meanwhile, page chewing for come check us out there if you'd like to join us on these discussions. Thank you so much for listening. Bye. Bye.