Page Chewing

Unraveling the Intricate Weave of R. Scott Baker's 'The Thousandfold Thought' Chapters 5 - 9: A Deep Dive into Characters, Power, and Language

February 25, 2024 Steve
Page Chewing
Unraveling the Intricate Weave of R. Scott Baker's 'The Thousandfold Thought' Chapters 5 - 9: A Deep Dive into Characters, Power, and Language
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

 As we navigate chapters 5 through 9, our conversation spirals into the abyss of character psyches, dissecting the delicate interplay of power and vulnerability within Esmenet's ascension and Akka's internal conflicts. The richness of this literary tapestry becomes evident as we trace the emotional threads and shifting paradigms that challenge societal norms, mirroring the disorientation felt by the characters themselves.

Amid the dark labyrinths of intrigue and the looming shadow of war, we speculate on the fates of beloved characters, drawing comparisons to the epic scale of "Lord of the Rings." The convergence of story lines beckons, and our anticipation builds for the grand finale of Maithanet's journey, where the final pages promise revelations and the potential resolution of the trilogy's deepest enigmas. Our collective eagerness buzzes with the prospect of witnessing narrative threads knot together in a climax worthy of the intricate world Baker has woven.

Finally, we dissect the etymological symphony that underscores the series, exploring how language shapes the rich tapestry of this universe, much like the historical echoes in "Dune" and "Game of Thrones." As the podcast episode concludes, we reflect on the narratives' dance with history, love, and the precarious balance between knowledge and its dangers. 

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Speaker 1:

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of. Sorry that's the wrong intro, but hello everyone. Welcome to another discussion of the Thousandfold Thought, which is the third book in the Prince of Nothing trilogy by R Scott Baker. We are reading this series about 100 pages every week and meeting weekly to discuss those 100 pages. Today we're going to be discussing chapters 4 through 9 of the Thousandfold Thought and next week will be how many of our chapters gets us to and 100 pages next. I think that's up to chapter 14. If you'd like to join us for these discussions, either here in this discussion group or on the Patreon forum, consider or yeah, just for textual discussions, come check out the Patreon forum with me. I have the usual group of people that we get to discuss this book with. Carl, would you like to start us off with introductions?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I am Carl D Albert, first time reader of this trilogy, having a great time. I'm very much enjoying seeing things kind of coming together here towards the end of it all.

Speaker 1:

Nice, I thought Mike froze for a second. There We've been having a lot of technical issues today.

Speaker 3:

I've read these books before.

Speaker 4:

My name is Mike. This is my first time reading this series For now. I'm really enjoying it, if you can see that. But yeah, happy to discuss these chapters with you today.

Speaker 3:

Yes, we can hear it.

Speaker 1:

Steve back. Can we hear him? Yes, excellent.

Speaker 2:

Jeez, he's a big win listeners.

Speaker 6:

Oh yeah, I'm sure everyone's thrilled.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, steve, we're doing introductions, so you came exactly at the right time.

Speaker 6:

Oh cool, I'm Steve and you can find me on pagetruingcom and all the various page stream podcasts and I'm Varsha's channel and podcast and speculative speculations. Yes all of those.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I was telling the group earlier that these five chapters have been my favorite so far in the series. So what do all of you think? What are some high level impressions?

Speaker 6:

I'm kind of surprised they're your favorite. I'm not that they were bad. I was curious what made them your favorite.

Speaker 1:

Many things the first chapters with Confish and Nayir I think, the internal monologues. There were a lot of internal monologues in these chapters and I think after Malazan that's kind of my jam. And yeah, confish and Nayir even Confish, he's an arrogant, self-centered ass, but everything he thinks to himself I don't agree with them, but I loved reading through them and thinking about them, I guess. And sometimes when he has a point I'm like, yeah, that thing I have to grapple with. Where I agree with people I don't like.

Speaker 1:

And same with Nayir and we lost Steve again for a bit. Okay, he's back. Yeah, with Nayir. I think I'm forgetting for all that I highlighted what the high level aspects were that they were thinking so much about, but I really enjoyed reading all of his musings about what's going on and I think then, when we got to the part Akamyan and Esmenet really turned around for me like that Akamyan accepting what, what? Yeah, feeling better about losing Esmenet to Kallus, realizing that maybe he didn't he didn't do as much for her as he could have, perhaps that you know how she's changed with Kallus and Esmenet realizing that you know what Akamyan's going through. Like the conclusion of that, with her going to Akamyan and saying I wanted to tell you that you are strong.

Speaker 3:

I love that whole no, I'm just saying that. You know, to me even that part is very painful to read, like that whole relationship.

Speaker 5:

Because it does feel like. So. Yeah, what you said is true, I highlighted and dancing really, in that. You know he still wants to obviously you know and she's probably going to change it out to get knowing this piece. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's bittersweet. It's definitely bittersweet, I will say. I think I'm always pleased when we get these very heartfelt scenes and storylines and moments. It's something that you know. You hear a lot of about the darkness in this series understandably, like reasonably, because there is a lot of it, a lot of violence, a lot of just horrible things happening but it really helps humanize the characters and ground the story. I feel like when you get just so profoundly, you know, emotional and human and intimate moments and I am right there with you, barsha that I really enjoyed, that. I found it incredibly moving.

Speaker 2:

It was troubling, it definitely left me upset, but also pleased because it is nice that, like someone's ease came in for what he endears and I actually think in some ways has been that helped me feel even more of what in came in like it's one thing to kind of see it from his perspective and another thing to have like someone reinforce it and be like, no, this is really horrible, you know. And that it was done in such an interesting way that it was from her reading stories. You know these epics, the sagas right. That is such a unique I don't know if I've ever read anything like that before of someone like reading a story in a story and learning empathy, or like a deeper level of empathy through it. It was very meta and very well done just all around and that was probably the highlight for me, just because I did not expect it at all and also kind of goes to show that it came in was an idiot for not teaching her to read, because this kind of helped him so much, helped their relationship so much, like years ago. But you know that's their flaws at work, right, and yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 2:

Confis is such a rich character that I he's both like so smart and also so stupid at the same time. He's just so narcissistic and has such giant blind spots that you can't help but think he's a moron, but he actually is like also a genius. It's bizarre to read and I keep expecting him to just completely lose, but somehow he keeps managing to squeak his way out, which is fun. And you know Nair, because Nair is like a force of nature, so I kind of expect Nair to just like find a way through it all. But Confis, again, just because he has this like slight, like loser aspect to him, but he always manages to make it through. He's, he is just a fantastic character.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I think this this bit even though he knew the man simply flattered him Confis decided that he agreed.

Speaker 1:

So he's deciding to not think about anything and, just like, I'll make the world as I please and it will, and I will be at the center of it. Yeah, I think these chapters brought a lot of depth to all of our characters and yes, I am vaguely, on the periphery, terrified for what will happen to Esmenet when Keles shows his Keles colors to Esmenet, if and when that comes about. But but in terms of, like, everything that I was dissatisfied with at the end of the last set of chapters with regards to Akamian and Esmenet, how they were interacting with each other, I think Akamian yeah, even him, to a certain extent, I think. I think he didn't get out of that she's, she's a whole mentality, but he seems to have moved on from that. They, they've both grown up so much in this and we got a lot more depth into Nair and conflict. Like Nair is a, I think, our resident philosopher, he has a lot of, I think he's our what window into Keles to a certain extent.

Speaker 2:

So I want to give Mike a moment to talk, but just before we do two things.

Speaker 2:

I don't think Akamian has grown up at all Since the torture. I think he's just distanced from like I think the emotions have sort of settled down, like as many I feel like has actually grown in these chapters, but I don't know that I feel like Akamian necessarily has. I feel like he's still the same person he was since the torture. Like the torture clearly changed him and then, seeing as Manette is with Keles, changed him. But I just feel like he's sort of more emotionally distanced. You know, like time heals all wounds and not that the wounds are healed but that they're not so raw as they were. And the second thing, which we can talk about in lots of detail I'm sure I did you guys read this the same way I did that Nair is like learning to cut himself off from the darkness that comes before, like that's what he's actively doing, that he's going outside and like the same things that Keles has described as doing. Nair is doing just kind of finding himself instinctively.

Speaker 1:

I think that is true, and also I think Confist was at next end. Maybe he's a more what? What's that called lobotomy, a lobotomized version of the logo? Because he doesn't, he doesn't, he manip, he's trying to manipulate things the same way that Keles seems to be, except he's not very good at it, but then he's good at it Like he's he's.

Speaker 1:

He made me think a lot about Keles in this section, maybe because of his lack of concern for the, for the norms, right, he doesn't care about the religion, he doesn't care about the. He tells the dude to not bow to him anymore. He's like, yeah, you can look me in the eye, I have no problem with that. So he's not one to set store by tradition and ritual, and that feels like cutting off a lot of the things that normal people set store by and the lack of which allows Keles to be as objective as he is right. So so I guess Nair and Confist are interesting because they're both semi dunyain, sort of like. My point is, Confist does not have a lot of what might constitute said darkness, and Nair is getting rid of it himself and realizing that too. So sorry, Mike, you go now.

Speaker 4:

No, no, I I wouldn't challenge too much of what anybody said. I agree with you. I did have a different interpretation of Nair. I thought it's well, he seems to be going completely mad. I agree with that.

Speaker 4:

I wouldn't say it, maybe allowed him to welcome in his relationship with the console, which I found the most fascinating part of the whole. Five chapters or so, the last hundred pages or so, I wrote down a lot of notes like what it? What the hell is going on here? Because it's it's, it slowly builds, it's. We kind of knew from, I think, the first section that we read, that he was starting to have, starting to see the synthies, and at first I was like, oh, he's dreaming. But no, I don't think he had, no, he wasn't, and so it's just jarring. But I, yeah, I hope to talk about that a little bit more.

Speaker 4:

But one thing I wanted to say about Confist, which I thought was really interesting and I'm not sure, I'm not sure how much he himself had to do with it, but the, the, what is it? The, the sake sorcerer, kevin Ketry, is like I have been waiting to, to be wielded Essentially, so he's kind of been. So we haven't heard much from that character and I and I and I thought it was interesting. I think there was a point made that there, you know, the, the sake school is the only one that's like associated with, you know, like a state or one of these fiefdoms or what have you. So I'm very curious, that's very, that's quite ominous. But then and then, the other aspect that I also felt, really apart from what you all had discussed, but the fact that a commune is continuing to teach Ellis all of his, all of the, the gnosis, and even how Ellis manipulated and I don't know.

Speaker 4:

Or yes, right, it was tapping into swathe. I don't know how he did that. It was like he learned hypnosis or what have you. But so there was just a lot. There was just a few other things that I noted that really I was like, wow it's, it's kind of.

Speaker 4:

Those are two things that are kind of in the background and I'm curious how that'll play out, but I agree that I think you know the relationship with Esmenet and I mean I wrote this down she in chapter six she traveled in in her black palanquin with a luxurious litter of 16 slaves and she is now like the second most powerful after Kelly's. So she's like really, you know, gone full circle here, the complete other side of the spectrum, where she was really considered, you know, very low status, if you will, in their terms of Genin or whatever. And there was a section where they said she has kind of completely that that has been rewritten for her. So she is really coming, as we talked about the last time, but she's it's even more like people are bowing to her that are very high up, like Pryas and all of these others.

Speaker 4:

So it's, it's really a lot of there's just a lot of tension building, just so. I just all around. So it's that's what I mentioned before we started recording. You know, it's just I feel my my head is spinning a little bit so I can't say this is my favorite, but there is really just I'm impressed with what Baker is doing.

Speaker 4:

In addition, there's also a lot of exposition. There's a lot of info done. That is I don't. I don't mind, I have some, some trouble following it, but I yeah it's. It's really a head scratcher section here, so I'm anxious to see how it plans out.

Speaker 6:

Kind of surprised to hear everyone's feedback, because the way that I saw came in reaction to Espinette was more of almost like jealousy that he, he wanted to be the one like kind of like. He kind of like he didn't see her value in a way, like he took her for granted. And now that she has this position of power, now that Callis has brought all these other things in her and she's she has, she's trying to gain power and gain knowledge and respect kind of took it as it's almost like a he's a little bit jealous. It's not him in that position, and not that he wanted to be with Callis, but he didn't have that position.

Speaker 3:

But I feel like he wanted to be the one to bring that out in her.

Speaker 6:

But Cal does not so much more like he's like a call regrets, not like not of course I couldn't do it like a selfish perspective, so he just so. I'm a little bit interesting that I feel you, everyone else's reaction to it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I feel a little bit. Steve says was that he wanted to be the one to bring.

Speaker 1:

I'm curious, I didn't get the impression at all that a commune would like to, just want to basis with Callis and anyway, even if it means that he'd get as many back. But yeah, I'm wondering if I missed something, do you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, but that's yeah, I think it just shows how ingrained like the patriarchy is in this world. He never even thought about it, but now that it is there, he's like yeah, obviously, obviously she can and obviously yeah, like he wanted credit for it. But he didn't even remotely above it.

Speaker 6:

But so she is grateful to him, as she seems to be to Callis, for doing that. Oh yeah. Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, he didn't have a problem leaving time after time and going off on his little missions and leaving her behind after he told her he wouldn't, so it's. I think he sees her differently now that he sees what she's capable of. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

I think your take on it, steve, is a good one. I would agree with you. It's kind of like a role reversal in some ways. There was what about the one section in there that I thought was kind of interesting where, you know, I think it was after was it before he kissed her or whatever he's like. I want to murder Keles. He blurts it out and then later on it's like everybody knows and they're not going to do anything about it, and I just found that to be. I thought that was going to be really bad for him. But I think what Keles is able to do is he is able to change kind of the social norms and mores that exist and show people like you know, all of these other things are possible, which is I find it to be very striking that people would just kind of I know it's because of who he is and what he's able to do, but you know he's kind of showing I guess what the society could be.

Speaker 4:

I don't know there's some commentary on that in here somewhere, I don't know, just anything. I have a feeling that that is what Baker is doing a little bit, you know, I think, with him giving the lecture on what was it? Feminism, and to a certain extent, yeah, go ahead Right, Exactly. Yeah, I find that really interesting because that, if you, you know, we can't it's difficult to try to judge how the values that may exist in a I don't know if this is a 15th century equivalent or who knows, but those are the, you know, I do think about that a bit.

Speaker 4:

I mean he's basically, you know, he's able to win hearts and minds. However, except for the men that are dutiful to Confess which I was kind of I think that was kind of surprising that there was I don't know how many, but it was a fair number that still wanted to stay with him. So that shows that he isn't I guess he's he isn't have all control over everybody.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think I think the way I read that, steve, why I came to a different conclusion about the a commune feeling about Asmanit, the way I read this was that he's come to the realization that he was insufficient or he did not bring out the best of her in their relationship together, which is, yeah, I think it was more that he felt like he didn't do a good job then than that he he wished he could read with things or that he had done those things for like, even even if he even if that has I forget if that's some thought that he did have, that he wished he had done better, which I don't think he explicitly came out and thought he just was realizing all the ways in which he was insufficient, like he concludes with I failed her, he realized right.

Speaker 1:

So it's more that I think he's analyzing what Keles did for her that he did not do and why she seems to be a better person now than than than she used to be with him, or that he didn't bring out the best in her, which for me is a realization that you know this person could have been so much more and I sort of restricted them or I didn't see them for more than like they were bound by my perceptions of them. So that realization for him, I think, is important. I didn't read that as envy, just more self realization. That's where we're differing in our conclusions.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, like I mentioned, I think the the how deeply rooted the patriarchy is in this series and that's part of it is they never crossed his mind to think that she's capable of being more.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2:

I have been looking desperately to try to find the because I think this is really important and I got interesting reactions from the guys who read it before. So I don't think I'm misreading this, that I'm with you. Mike Nair is going insane. I mean, nair has been insane for a while. Arguably he's always been insane. But I'm I'm telling you, he's having some. He's like, he's not perfect at it, but he's learning, like the logos, without being taught it, like one of the first things is on page 105 in the paperback.

Speaker 2:

Is he towards the bottom? There were two past. Nair understood that. Now there's the past that men remembered and there was the past that determined, and rarely, if ever, were they the same. All men stood in through all the ladder and knowing this made them insane. So he's there, beginning to identify the darkness that comes before.

Speaker 2:

And then, on page 158, he cackled aloud when the revelation struck and for a moment the world itself wobbled. A sense of power suffused him, so intense it seems something other might snap from his frame that, throwing out his arms, he could sheer jock those walls from their foundations, cast into the horizon no reason bound him, nothing, no scruple, no instinct, no habit, no calculation, no hate. He stood beyond origin or outcome. He stood nowhere.

Speaker 2:

And his men, you know. I ask him what amuses you and he thinks that I once cared for my life, like he's separating himself from everything. He's wondering, you know, like why are people doing the things they're doing? And he's coming to these realizations that it's all bullshit and that you know their opinions, their perspectives all come from. You know where they stand in their pasts. And that he, in that moment it doesn't last clearly Like he is finding these moments where to me that section read distinctly as him embodying the logos. Briefly, in a moment of having this moment where he cuts himself off from the darkness that comes before and sees the world like Kella sees it. I just don't think he can hold on to that. Yet that it's for him. It's a temporary, a passing state, you could say.

Speaker 4:

Wow, yeah, I, that's great. I actually had jotted down other other things that he, that we. While this has come up over and over again and maybe even in book two, there's in the talics it's written often in the near POV. I'm forgetting. Something is happening over and over again, so to me that that really supports, I think, what you're saying. I wasn't even sure what it was. I think I actually was thinking something totally different. So I'm maybe embarrassed, yeah, go for it.

Speaker 4:

So okay, there's is it in its chapter nine starts with he awoke, you know, more ancient, and I thought, oh, this is a reference to the no God and he is somehow channeling the no God Because, because that isn't that who? Because we forget, isn't that what this give and worship like about that in the back of my mind, like so that was something I was like maybe he's like the antithesis of the I don't know what the right terminology would be, but he's, he's doing the no God version of the logos or something. That's what I was because, because he's also then like he's basically, you know, in league with the console. So, but that's what I was thinking. I think your interpretation is is also like I wouldn't disagree with it at all.

Speaker 2:

I mean I, I don't like totally disagree with what you're saying either, because I think it's not. It's not like he's coming at this in the exact like dunyain way, right, like he's not being taught. He's having this sort of it's almost like through madness he's finding a degree of enlightenment really messed up enlightenment, but enlightenment nonetheless, like he's learning things in his brokenness. And I mean because it's just so for the longest time I was like does he think sir way is? You know, in quotes, sir way is, sir way. And it's clear he doesn't, he knows she's not, but at the same time it's enough and it, I think, highlights his perspective this entire time, which is that she's just an object to him. And so this sir way, sir way, enough for him, because he never really cared about the soul of the woman, he never really cared who she was. It's this treasure, this prize for him. And so if it's a con, you know, consult skin spy, whatever.

Speaker 2:

You know, I am curious what he is kind of planning, you know. I mean obviously he wants still to find Moengus and get back into things, but does he even have a plan? Really, you know, it's unclear. Like what is he? How is he planning on developing his relationship with the consult. It's clear he doesn't really trust them. I mean, he's not an idiot, but he is going along with them. That whole storyline is. I wasn't sure where they were going to take their and I'm so glad this is where it went, like this is. This was the right path for his character. It's so interesting, especially with, as you mentioned, mike, the history of the skill Vendy and their tide and the no God and the consult, that I just think this is such an interesting way of drawing parallels there right with history, but in a potentially very new way, right that these cycles are finding new shape.

Speaker 4:

There's a. It's toward the. I couldn't find it, but the last chapter we read there is a. There is a reference to like different. It's either madness or genius or but something about him being possessed by the deep. The origin of madness could be, you know, being possessed by the, by the demonic, and that there's a lot of references to him kind of representing this, the God of War. I wrote that, I wrote that and it was the guy's name. Anyway, what's going on here, Just with, just with Nair alone, is like wow.

Speaker 2:

It is interesting how so many of these characters view themselves like gods or compare themselves to gods or some sort of divine beings. Like you have Confess and all the Ikkuri's right that I mean. That's kind of their basic belief system is the emperor is like a God and must be worshiped like one. And then now obviously you have Keles, who is in a semi divine state, although he doesn't necessarily believe that it's literally true, but that is, I think.

Speaker 2:

Confess, might want himself. And then Nair, you said, views himself as both a demon and the God of War. I think, nair, there's a overlap there potentially, and yeah, just just, it's an interesting, I don't know continue thematic development there.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, he's the most violent of old man. I think he called me.

Speaker 2:

I don't know that, that, if that is true now, I definitely don't think that was always true, because he had his whole saying of, like you know, I am the what is it like the killers of? I forget what he calls himself, but like you know, he basically yeah, the most violent of all men, right that he, like created this persona for himself because he was so filled with self loathing that I think he is still to some degree grabbing him, although he seems to be again kind of cutting himself off from it that he definitely had deluded himself. I don't know.

Speaker 2:

That's the thing with Nair and that I struggled to pin down is, I feel like he's a paradox constantly, that he believes two things at once. You know, in a way that, like, arguably all the care I mean arguably all people do that. But I feel like Nair is most clearly on the page where, like, he simultaneously believes Sirway is Sirway, is like it's Sirway enough, but also he knows it's not Sirway, right. And in the same way, I feel like he views himself both as this like being, but also he thinks, you know, it's all bullshit and none of that is meaningless. I don't know. I mean, this is how I read him that, you know I feel like he's constantly holding his head. I interpret him quite a lot different in that, and to me that's like one of the you could argue that he's one of the most sane characters.

Speaker 2:

He just views the world in a way that's.

Speaker 3:

Because he's one of the characters I think that most understand what's going on with him and what's going on in the world that he just believes all his paradoxes, Because he's what?

Speaker 2:

if you think about it, it's one of the few characters which thinks in work.

Speaker 3:

He's like he's tried to analyze himself. He's trying to understand how he's thinking, why he's speaking. All these things Everyone else projects outwards until Carlos makes them think about themselves, right.

Speaker 3:

And what you said about Sirway. I how I understand it is that he loves Sirway and he thought he considered her part of his tribe and that also implies ownership because of their you know how it is in their society. But he knows that fake Sirway is not real. But he's willing to how to say? He's willing to accept the fakeness and he's like, okay, I know it's fake, I'll just accept it. I know it, I know it's not real but it's going to heal me in some way. It is what I need, even though it's not what it's real. I know part of me can pretend that it's real. That's how I understand. Like he knows himself, he knows his instincts, so he can sort of he can coexist with both accepting things he knows is not true with half of his mind, but also just embracing his instincts, just like embracing his violence and breaking his culture in some cases, embracing all these things.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, I don't even disagree with that. I think that's in some ways I was trying to say something very similar, which is that I think, again, like you're describing the sort of paradoxes that I think he's living, where, like he knows, sir Wei is not Sir Wei but he still, like, allows himself to live the dilution you know. So there's this simultaneous awareness, like he, you know, and I would agree, that he loves Sir Wei, but not in a way that's like, like I think all the root of that feeling is Sir Wei is just sort of his, like, his proof that he's not, you know, the faggot worker, right, that he's the big tough guy that he's like I don't feel like genuinely has romantic feelings for her, not in any way that, at least in my point of view of the world, would identify as like, sort of, not in the way like a cameo in Esmondette, for example. I feel like, feel about each other, right. To me, sir Wei again embodies like an object, like she is literally a prize to him. She is this chalice that embodies this ideal, like this fantasy, you know, which is he's living now in the most literal sense, because it's not Sir Wei, right?

Speaker 2:

So again, I'm right there with you that I think, like he is the like you said, weirdly, like he's the most self aware of anyone other than Kellis, but like I totally am with you on that, I do think he's crazy, but I think, strangely, his craziness is part of what lets him be self aware, because it lets him again, I think, in the same way that his madness.

Speaker 2:

He's so broken he can actually break himself off even briefly from the darkness that comes before. It's like it's this weird paradoxical state where he's just like, so like destroyed as a person. That he's actually wise, you know, but he still isn't like functioning in a way that I view as like, like not in Kellis, where, like Kellis to me, has complete self control, even if you know he's a monster, but he has control of himself Generally. He's had like a couple, you know, and the towards the end of the book, to be like, had his breaks, but they were fleeting moments. But Nair, to me, is like gaining more and more control, certainly from where he was in book one. But that does not just. He still has a degree Everything is like once you you've gone through it, can you?

Speaker 6:

really detect yourself.

Speaker 2:

Break down all the things that, like all the cultural norms, everything that makes you you, I guess, sort of, and I think part of it is about going crazy without he knows it's all bullshit. Keep still living like skill, then the ideals, I think.

Speaker 3:

But you think, once you're an adult already, do you think it's possible to go back to the level Kellis was? I think that's the whole premise of the little Like.

Speaker 2:

I said that's sort of that he continues to in some way let the past If. I'm going to make a list. I don't know. These guys believe he does not. I think that's also up in the air, Right Is is Kellis even fully cut off in the past, right? I mean, I don't know. It's an interesting question.

Speaker 4:

That would be a lot of unlearning that would have to do, and I think it would be. I think, I think it would be very difficult. I think what's happening here is we. You know, you said Dan, you said that he seems to be the most sane in a way. He's, he is, but he, it's like he's the, he's the he's, he's introspective, but he's also aware, he's like, awakened in a way that is very unsettling to his nature as a skill, vendi, barbarian breaker of men with multiple wives and many children, and that past also is basically gone. So he, I think that he's.

Speaker 4:

I really like what your interpretation, carl, and I don't know if, like makes me think actually about myself, to be honest, like if, because if you, you know, if you've ever lived somewhere else or I think a lot of us, a few of us on the call, probably have lived in a different country and you detach yourself from where you come from and in a way, even your culture or whatever. I can totally relate in a way to what he's going through, but in this context it is so much more extreme because he's also seeing the madness of Kelis that's going on and nobody else sees it. I think that's a big part of that might be part of what really is but also he's dealing with his own sexuality and so many other things at the same time.

Speaker 4:

So it's quite a complex character and I was amazed that it continues. Baker is able to continue developing him in this way, I agree he's again just a character that I particularly.

Speaker 2:

By the end of book two I was like I don't know where you take this character from here, like where does he go, you know? I almost was like at the point where Kelis considered killing him. I almost was like that this would seem like a moment to write him out of the story, like I feel like his arc was done, but no, he still had so much room like I got to give Baker credit. He's really just continued, like you said, my finding new ways to develop there. It's really interesting.

Speaker 4:

Not to change the subject, but that there was a part where I thought he was going to be killed by Confess and I guess I mean it's still maybe. I don't think it's going to happen, I'm not where they, where they ended, I have to reread maybe the last few paragraphs again. But but he had the realization that he was. You know, kelis supposedly had sent him to deal with Confess, but in reality, you know, nayor knows realize that oh yeah, I shouldn't take anything he says and he wanted me to be, he wanted to be killed by by Confess and apparently Kelis knew what was going to happen. I don't know how he knew that. You know Confess was going to be and for and escape and all.

Speaker 4:

I mean there's a lot that happens in terms of plot points, but yeah, so I, I, I wonder if, if Kelis wants something done, like I guess it's probably, I don't know I'd be curious how Nayor is able to thwart being being being killed. He was very close. So now that he's again, like I said, in league with the consulates, that must have been what he had decided. I don't think it was very clear to me per se, but he must have decided. This is, you know, I can survive this way by getting becoming. I don't. Actually I didn't seem that way per se, but that is what ended up saving him from being, I guess, killed in the last chapter, unless I totally read that wrong. What was your interpretation of that?

Speaker 2:

your turn, bersha.

Speaker 1:

I honestly the the Nayor sections, I felt very disoriented and I, I think and after a point I sort of just like, let myself be disoriented rather than try to understand too much detail but yeah, yeah, I I think that it was interesting that Confess wanted to, was briefly considering trying to make him the what is it now exalt general of the army. So I think these two characters are really interesting because they're both. I guess Confess never had any preconceived notions to fight with and what's the name. Nayor is wrestling with his own and so those two characters together, placing them together I think is really interesting what Baker did there. But yeah, back to the disorientation. But I think writing wise, I think that's excellent because I felt as disoriented as Nayor did, but also that also meant I didn't understand a whole lot of what was going on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the writing in there's POV gets very obtuse is maybe too harsh a word, but it is. It's confused, right and I think it's very intentional. It sometimes leaves me like rereading passages multiple times to make sure I'm like following what's going on here and certainly having to read very closely, and I think it's well done. I do think sometimes Baker, like Steven Erickson, actually goes a little too far and like being a little too unclear about what's exactly going on. But generally I think it certainly adds, particularly with Nayor, to a level of ambiguity. And, yeah, I think the conflict, the inner conflict and the you know, however you want to define it, whether it's madness or whatever, you know, the storm inside Nayor it is quite tempestuous and that definitely comes out on the page. I just want more pro is I miss the pro is snare buddy cop duo. That was that. That was like that was probably the healthiest near was in all the books.

Speaker 2:

He wasn't like I don't know was he going around raping people, then maybe he was, I don't know he was, he's always a bad guy.

Speaker 3:

I don't know, and I do like this part to be manhandling the character from this we haven't gotten enough.

Speaker 1:

I mean, that's yeah.

Speaker 3:

Well, you said you like conflicts were just suddenly like me or just a favorite character in. So still, I mean, for me it's so visceral, it's like cuz, like you don't expect me, he didn't expect it, you don't expect that.

Speaker 3:

He's just gonna get hit that's a nice way to put it like inner society or just assuming it won't run and we come to you and hit you right, and when that, if someone does, it's like again, it breaks the whole. Like you can see, there he's also. His whole confidence is broken for like, for like that. Only that part, like his confidence is gone, if you think about all the books. And even after that he regains it because he takes control again. But for that moment he truly feels powerless and he feels fear and he feels, I don't know, like, not admiration, but he's sort of like he sees near as this bigger than him figure, while he always put himself above. I think it's just a very powerful scene, the whole one and it's, but then he goes back to being himself, I guess.

Speaker 1:

I think in the conversation with Nair and. Confess. When he's awakening him, he says I wish it had been you, then I'd know for sure who led the battle where the Silvendi and Confess. Heavy Beads constructs are so right, yeah, that's easy, we are to break if you just want to break them and you're not bound like maybe, yeah, maybe we're mayor, almost think it's like you know, because if you think about it, like they have this what what's they called them?

Speaker 3:

yeah, right, like everything is built, so this intricate network. Oh, I have to do these little things to manipulate people, but in reality, you could just just violently break everything or kill someone, right? It's just, yeah, how we build these very complex things which are, in reality, just nothing yeah, mmm yeah yeah, yeah yeah, absolutely, it's all a mirage, right?

Speaker 2:

yeah, takes one my person. Come in, I mean, in real life, you can see that in the most horrible, violent ways, right, like you talk about mass shooters or anything, just like someone, yeah, you know, showing how fragile everything is. It's, it's, it's great stuff. Mayor is a force of nature, certainly, which, on a similar note that's, I will say Kallis is too good at everything. It's the magic was like that was a step. He learned magic in like two weeks that that if I won critique for this section, I was like that that was a lot, that was it. It was just so fast. He's just, he's literally perfected everything and yeah, he's, and at least he's like a bad guy, so it like adds to the tension rather than taking away from it. So it doesn't drive me like, it doesn't really drive me nuts, and like you do get these great scenes, like when he does learn the magic and his eyes are glowing and it's just like the work and some very dramatic.

Speaker 3:

What can stop? What is he trying to do? I do have moments when you know someone might try and stop him.

Speaker 2:

That's the question, right, or anything this guy can't do. You know, he's just absolutely I mean prodigy is the word right at everything, at like literally everything he's trying to do well, the.

Speaker 4:

I thought it was interesting that the consult was like, yeah, we're pulling for him, he's leading, he's headed to to Shima, he's bringing, bringing the holy war, and that's what we want. So they're, like you know, in his, supporting him in that sense.

Speaker 3:

I mean he is.

Speaker 1:

I did wonder why the consult would try to kill him. Shima, and they did address that in this section. That the concessor?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I'll let him have it, because he's going revealing the consul to everyone, which is the worst thing but for the cause of right. But what we want is just to be in the shadows, I guess, and to let people think they don't exist.

Speaker 1:

That's also why, yeah, I guess, yeah, maybe, maybe, as long as he's successfully bringing the holy water she made it, they'll be okay with it you're right.

Speaker 4:

I, I think I that might have been what the bird said to now, you're something, it's definitely came up. Or they said that we wanted him to do to go bring the holy war. But yeah, you're, you're right there. I mean I, that's obvious. Yeah, he's, he's, he's revealing a lot of easy, revealing all of them. I don't know where I was at one point I remember, maybe in book two, it was like yeah, I've identified. I think it was like 20, but then only a few had been had been revealed. So I part of me thinks maybe some of it is for show. I don't know that he's.

Speaker 4:

People ask consult who aren't consult no, no, no, no, no, go ahead. I maybe I was saying that me.

Speaker 4:

I was saying that, like I'm just never convinced with anything in this book, so, like I was. You know maybe there is 50 consult spies and I can kill it sees all of them, but he only shows to the rest of the world that he's identified. You know a few of them and but because, for all we know, you know he there. He because he can see the future. He can see what people's intentions are. Maybe he wants them or, you know, whatever his goals are, to get what's happening at that time as he wants them to be around. But I maybe I'm now going way off and a tangent here there was something I noticed in the second read.

Speaker 6:

I didn't notice the first time yeah yeah, but on page 123, a copy, that they noticed golden halos around callous's. I think it's at the beginning of chapter 5. I don't think a whole lot was going on, I think they were just kind of observing callous, I think it's chapters like maybe very peculiar, yeah, I said, yeah, that before, but there's, it's very.

Speaker 2:

I remember a lot of stuff that's happening, isn't it? And I was like, is this just like a profit? Like they're just imagining they're drinking the color Jesus and is he a came in just to see, see them too.

Speaker 3:

I hope not. Oh, jesus was a nicer person than callous.

Speaker 2:

I hope that's interesting, you point that out.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think he's yeah, yeah oh, hmm, well speaking of biblical, did anybody see a parallel? Well, was it the son of Kilmomas? Yeah, who's who has like all these different gospel around him? That was revealed, I think, when that's minute was talking about the, when she was reading the. Is it the sagas gosh? Yeah, but I saw that. I saw a parallel, somewhat of a parallel there, with with callous yeah to your point about callous learning things too fast.

Speaker 1:

They seem to imply here that kel kelma monos is that the name of the king who are coming keep seeing die every time who, as Manette was reading about. They seem to imply that he is talented, like he's smart and something of a prodigy himself, and maybe Anna Surimbar are like that in general and add dunian abilities to that that expand his ability to learn, perhaps. Okay, I remember highlighting the bit about that that she reads in the sagas about the guy, but spinning.

Speaker 2:

Spinning off from all of that is we got an interesting juicy little tidbit that probably doesn't matter for at least this trilogy. But man, maybe doesn't matter at all, although actually could potentially matter a lot. Kel, I mean talking about that Anna Surimbar line. There is the implication that sesuato was the father of kel Momas.

Speaker 2:

His kid when as net was reading the sagas there, or no, was it? Was it when she's reading the sagas or someone else talking? I don't know, but there was at some point it. There was mentioned the idea that their sesuata and kel Momas had a falling out and it was, and they did not reunite until the apocalypse and you know, to fight off the no-god. And the big reason for it proposed was that it was over his relationship with the son, the prince, because there were some rumors that kel Momas, his favorite lover, had in fact coupled with sesuata and that the prince was sesuata's son. This is like a throwaway. There was like one line about it, but it did stand out to me because I was like, oh, that is juicy, that is hmm interesting and it's extra meaningful because everyone is descended.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if it descended from that son.

Speaker 3:

Well, the family tree. Can you tell?

Speaker 2:

us isn't even an honest hearing boy, not by blood, hmm, well maybe we haven't done that part interesting.

Speaker 4:

Well, he is one of that way that's right yeah it's not genetic. Oh, you can, just you can barn that way. Oh really, I didn't know that. Hmm, I think this character's name is now kaiyuti, and I find that difficult but yeah, I can't.

Speaker 2:

I was having trouble even just remembering it because of that. Yeah, it is interesting. And they snuck in I mean all that stuff in the sogas. It's interesting what we all learn there. I love that stuff. Getting ancient history they snuck in to Golgo Turov crazy, I want to know, I want to fall. I want to read this August now, like, give me this August.

Speaker 4:

I want to know what I like it too. I think I used the word information dump and I think that's the wrong terminology, because I do like it and I hate to say it. I started reading the encyclopedic glossary.

Speaker 2:

I think parts of it are information dumps like there are. We get like pages of it, yeah, but it's so compelling and interesting that, like who cares and that goes to show, right like info dump, it doesn't have to be a bad thing, especially when it, like you know, it does matter again, especially if, like you know, we're talking about you know the throwaway line but potentially the whole honest hearing boy line is you know, bloodline is false, right like that's.

Speaker 6:

That's interesting, that's juicy material speaking of, I always on my first, for daily, loved these descriptions of the the arc of the skies they described like two golden horns.

Speaker 2:

Does anyone have any idea what that actually like looks like I could not picture. Like what is. Is it literally just like two parts of it that just like extend out kind of like what? Like I okay, I wasn't sure. Like am I supposed to be picturing? Like wings, like what, what?

Speaker 4:

is. I was imagining that it was like if it was a spaceship or whatever, that the rest of it might have been buried. You know that was what was definitely. Oh yeah, you know that, that's technically not a bit of official also, so that makes all the description.

Speaker 3:

I know.

Speaker 6:

I was gonna say there is our work out there, you can see the horns. But I would probably stay away if you don't want to know, if you don't, because you'll probably find maps and things, so can't do it. Yeah, but to help, sure yeah, I that's cool.

Speaker 2:

I I'm definitely gonna try to be very careful about artwork. Luckily I got away with it, for at the end of the warrior prophet I mean it's a name of one of the boys. So, but I spoiled so many things in Mlazen for myself by looking up fan art. They're just like, just like right there, blatant. So I'm gonna be careful. Don't want to do that myself again.

Speaker 4:

I mean, the other thing that I know is a future book that came up is the ordeal, but maybe that's a different but that's. But they don't say the Great Ordeal, they say the Ordeal, I think, and that's Kilmomas' Holy War against Golgotharoth, and I didn't understand how is that a Holy War? But maybe the Nogoth.

Speaker 4:

Well, we're gonna get to it, I think. So the Golgotharoth is the stronghold of the Inca-ray, who then, or Ngeka, who later become the consult. So how are they like religion? That's the part I didn't understand. I also could have maybe completely botched that, but I think that's the way I understood it.

Speaker 1:

Is Golgotharoth a place or a being? Well, you can. Oh, I need to reform. Back to that city.

Speaker 3:

We're just talking about people there. Right, it's a city.

Speaker 1:

Because the grow person thinks something to himself that it sounded like he thought Golgotharoth was someone he needed to report to, but maybe it's someone there that he needs to report to. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Makes sense. Yeah, nair compared the task sorry, the faces, the consult faces to the task. There was a whole sentence there. Do you think that has some origin story of the task somehow I'm trying to find it, but I think it was in chapter nine. He's thinking about the faceless ones and then he says like the tusk, yeah, thorns tusks. There was a spear as concealed in the tickets of human activity, thorns, tusks.

Speaker 2:

That washed right over me. No, I didn't, although you are reminding me not to jump away because it's tied to this Bro. This dude straight up kissed the thing when it opened its face. That was there are no words. There are no words. Disgusting, doesn't even come close. That was unreal. He just went all in French kiss that alien mutant.

Speaker 4:

That's his prize. You know Exactly. He's very attached to Sarway. I thought and again, so I don't have to definitely share things where I'm like what happened before? I don't know what the hell's going on. I thought that he had a facehugger. I thought that Nair then got a new face attached to him. Did anybody else think that or no?

Speaker 1:

So I had moments of confusion where I thought Nair is also like a concept, kind of like Sarcellus, a little bit almost like that, but not quite, because he still has a verness of himself, Like the thing called Sarcellus. Only thought of himself as a thing called Sarcellus. This feels like he's been possessed by the consult, especially that scene where Confess, when later he doesn't remember, he thinks to himself apparently he had been beaten up last night but he doesn't remember that he was the one who did the beating. Yeah, that felt like something's going on there with the. At first I thought maybe he's been replaced by Consert and we're not made aware of that yet. But then there's too much of Nair in the thoughts, in the monologues that for it to be Consert. Maybe it's just possession, some kind of possession, I don't know.

Speaker 4:

I thought that when, after he kissed the whatever the thing it said something about he could feel its muscles beneath twitching beneath his skin. I thought I nobody's saying. I was confused. I thought is I thought maybe he's. It's like invasion of the body, snatchers or something and they're taking his DNA so that they can imprint and then make a copy of it yeah. That's kind of what I thought might be going on.

Speaker 1:

I don't know, but if they needed that then one of the Consert would have had to kiss Kellis no, and they didn't, as far as we know. Grab the cup of water. Ja, yeah, why not?

Speaker 4:

I thought that there was some kind of initiation or something maybe going on. You know, we'll find out. That was at the end of the last chapter or so, we don't know. I didn't read ahead.

Speaker 1:

So about sort of new topic, if that's all right.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

The fact that Nair is dropping away a lot of his preconceptions. Right, esmenet is also grappling or like sort of redoing her worldviews. There's a line about how she's rewriting Nyan, and I think those are two interesting people that Kellis has affected, except Esmenet did less consciously than with Nair. Esmenet is a lot more accepting of the societal changes that Kellis is bringing about because I guess she stands to benefit from them, but Nair has to force himself to rethink things that are deeply ingrained, like they're both rethinking things that are deeply ingrained.

Speaker 1:

But Esmenet is far more accepting because it suits her, but Nair maybe ultimately would suit him, but he doesn't know that yet, so he's struggling with it a lot more. Yeah, I guess Esmenet didn't like being a part of the society that she was in. Nair wants to be a part of the society and they both get the opposite. Yeah, I mean Esmenet gets what she wants. I agree with that. You turn it. Yeah, that makes sense. It's a really good insight. I don't think.

Speaker 4:

Nair has anywhere to go? I don't think which is why maybe he's turning to the dark side, or whatever you how much of what Nair is doing now is conscious.

Speaker 1:

I feel like he's just sort of riding the waves at the moment, going where the console is taking him because he doesn't almost like he doesn't want to think or doesn't want to deal with himself. So he's like, yeah, these guys are taking me somewhere, I'll go with them. I don't feel like he's consciously planning anything or doing none of the things he's doing because he wants to. It's more like things are just happening to him and he's taking micro decisions in the moment, but I don't feel like he's doing any long term planning or making any long term decisions. It's just like, oh, I'm being taken away by the console, cool, I'll go with them. Oh, surveys protecting me, like. Oh, so I was here to kiss me, cool. Or here, let me beat Confis up.

Speaker 2:

I think at the very end of this section we just read that's true. But I think when he's with Confis he's certainly actively thinking and planning about how to deal with Confis and how to deal with Keles. I mean, I'm not convinced he isn't making plans Like I think that's still up in the air, just from my point of view of it. But I'm really unclear of if he is planning, what he's planning, and so I do feel I mean he's definitely along for the ride to some sense, right? I mean, just fundamentally, he's clearly he's not like struggling against the console, he's going along with them and so you know one. Now that he's on the run he's sort of just like all right, we're going. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if he's planning. We'll see. I think that will become clear in the coming chapters. But I do think when he was in the city he was jokta, he was actively, even if, you know, it wasn't long term.

Speaker 2:

I feel like he's trying to find where he thinks about, where he belongs now.

Speaker 3:

Because he doesn't belong anywhere. I see it like he doesn't imagine a world with anyone, with any part of society, like what devoured every part of him.

Speaker 2:

He wants that. That's like the end of the world to him. Well, his role is, I guess, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I guess I can go back home and yeah.

Speaker 2:

Honestly, if he really wants to live out that Govindy life, going with the console ain't a bad idea. They're kind of about similar things, so you know. And their worst place is starting to go.

Speaker 1:

They wish of the same gods.

Speaker 2:

No, but I feel like now he's having trouble with that because like he could go back, but he knows where, but how restrictive it is, I guess you know if that's if he wants to go back to his own place.

Speaker 1:

He can't argue with that. It's not because I was to be just the worst.

Speaker 3:

And how to tell you to stumble, fitting in it probably, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree with you, I think he is.

Speaker 3:

I feel like he's starting feeling bad with it because of that, I think he is very like you know, like he doesn't know where he fits in.

Speaker 6:

And to some degree, I think arguably that's what he's always felt.

Speaker 2:

He just wasn't aware of it that like he didn't fit into skill Vinny culture, he just wasn't really sure. You know what else it will lock him back in his society, maybe Right, no, definitely.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that will help.

Speaker 3:

But maybe that's what he thinks. He thinks when he can kill my guy he can go back, because my guy is the thing that is the star.

Speaker 1:

That comes after getting what you want, and then what the hell do I do with my life now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he would have no idea. Like the dog that catches its own tail, he would have no idea. I just can't imagine he's not prepared to actually deal with Moingis. Not at all.

Speaker 3:

Maybe one goes dies before. Oh, totally, you can get, there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like that's, that's the for him, the sort of reset button, right, but no, he, no chance. I mean, I do think that he's lived this long. He will get to meet Moingis. Like that's a prediction I feel comfortable making that they will have a confrontation one way or another. I would be shocked at this point if they don't. That would be insane. If Moingis is already dead and they just they show up and the biggest anti climax like he's not even, he's not even been around, he's just, that would be. I can't imagine it could be a skin spot. I would be so mad. Honestly, if Moingis is dead, like someone's got to talk to him, I just want to see Moingis once, like he doesn't have to live for long. I just want to see one scene with Moingis.

Speaker 1:

One yeah, maybe we have seen several and Moingis is made.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly, or there's that right. We know that's coming. What is making that deal? I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no.

Speaker 2:

That's still a question, Mark. I'm actually surprised. I did not think it was going to take this long to unveil the mystery of Maithanet, but it's like going to be like the end of the book before we, you know, figure out what his secret is. A lot.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, speaking of I feel like this these chapters started a lot of threads. I mean, they are connected to the larger story, sure, but I feel like they also started new things. That I'm like halfway through the last book. I'm curious where this is going, or how much we leave off for the next series.

Speaker 2:

What specifically are you talking about? Because I mean, I think definitely there are a lot of ideas, particularly in like the back story of the world and things like that, and obviously we're not going to deal with all the consult stuff. But I just feel like you know Nair and Confess, the storyline there feels like it's a continuation. He certainly it's beard in ways I didn't expect, but that, like that, is a continuation. Keles has finally learned magic, which seemed inevitable, and it came in an Asmonex relationship has continued to develop in ways that are, you know, I feel like are like again unexpected in some ways, but are stepping stones that do feel like they've been laid out, I guess.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I agree that everything's like cohesive and feels like part of the story that's already been going on. I know that wrapping up and bringing all these things to an endpoint feels like at all order for the last 200 pages of the trilogy, so like yeah, we've had everyone go off to different places. Right, Nair is going to that new spaceship thing, I guess. And what's his name? Confess is, I guess he's going to try and take over the holy water again. So maybe there'll be some convergence there. But yeah, that's the word.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, lazing fans, that's the word. We're definitely going for a big convergence at Shimei, which is what we were promised right at the opening, and I think Baker's can pay it off. Check out, I mean, that's like basic structural thing, right. Like you know, you make a promise you're going to go to this place, like everything needs to end up at that place, and I am excited. You know, it's like it's more door and Lord of the Rings, right, I'm excited to see the payoff there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 2:

I think it is going to be that convergence right when, like literally all the characters are going to come together.

Speaker 6:

I mean even.

Speaker 2:

Mayfinnette. Mayfinnette left Rome. He's coming out here. You know, like we're going to get them all and I think that's the way Baker will stick the landing. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here because I'm with you, like there is a lot to resolve in 200 pages. Like if this book was 400 more pages rather than 200, I would be like, yeah, that's reasonable. Yeah, we definitely haven't gotten into climates on this look.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure so it is. Yeah, I feel like. I mean, if I could use an analogy, I feel like we're still climbing or not, like we haven't started the descent yet, and I would have expected to start descending right now.

Speaker 4:

The action is still rising. I feel it's in a lot of ways still I will say I looked ahead while we were reading.

Speaker 2:

We get to Shimei in these chapters, the next chapters we're going to read, so I'm ready. It's, we're going to start it. I guarantee Shimei, that's where it turns. I'm ready.

Speaker 1:

Do you think we find out what made the next dealess in these chapters or the ones after that?

Speaker 2:

I would be shocked if it's in the literal last 100 pages, because I feel like you need a lot of time to deal with the ramifications. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, you know, but that would really shock me, as if we get to the end of the next 100 pages and we don't have the majority of answers. Like I'm sure there will still be some secrets but obviously there are plenty of secrets for the next series but I just mean like kind of the main stuff, like what's made the next deal and like where's Mwingus and that sort of thing. I would be shocked if we don't figure that out pretty quickly in Shimei. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because it just you know, if not the first chapter, then the second chapter in Shimei. And that's okay, yeah, that's my guess, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

No, that makes sense I'm kind of like wanting for that to happen. I don't have any evidence to say that this is what will happen. Maybe that is the climax that they will meet there because, but I guess they have to deal with the son of the Padiraja that they killed, which Padiraja like hilarious it's the name, because I mean so. I think I've been reading Dune so I kind of think I know what Baker tried to do, because Padisha he took that, and then Raja means King. So he probably did the thing where he took the Padisha and then did Padiraja out of that. But as far as I know, that's not a word in any of the Indian languages and Padisha is just, you could say, a modification of the word Bacha, and maybe some languages like to just Padisha but Padiraja is the only translation I can think of is half.

Speaker 3:

A great big person or person maybe.

Speaker 1:

Maybe, because I think for that. I don't know if you're based on the actual word in your language but for me I'm a mother tongue. I think it's half a king, I think. Just like to say. One more word is the.

Speaker 3:

African equivalent, I guess.

Speaker 1:

Which? Have you been there yet?

Speaker 4:

I thought so too.

Speaker 3:

I was thinking about the Pasha right, the Ottoman Pasha. It is. Persian, but it's the. African equivalent.

Speaker 2:

But I think, raja, I think you might be right that he's mixing the words Right? Yeah, Pasha, because I hadn't even made that connection. I'm totally right, it's the Padisha emperor thing, right, like. Padisha. Yeah, I think Herbert didn't.

Speaker 1:

Pasha yeah. Yeah. So that's where Dune got it from. Probably right? Yeah, he probably got it from Dune, and then he changed the shab.

Speaker 3:

How is it spelled?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I totally agree with him, I think the etymology, there is he's bending. I mean the same way you look at like Game of Thrones, right, and you have the one in Cal and that's just Khan. Right Like Cal, drogo is just you know, he's the Genghis Khan character, right Like R. Yeah, yeah, okay. Which are you asking for? The real word or the one here? It's yeah, P-A-D-I-R-A-J-A-H. I think I said that right.

Speaker 1:

So are there any other topics? Before we start doing quotes we need our quotes.

Speaker 2:

I need my hit. Yes D.

Speaker 6:

Is that my key, or what? Yeah. All right, let's see. On page 132, the estranged always resorted to talk of third parties. On page 162, one I really like a lot, that hope is little more than the premonition of regret. This is the first lesson of history.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like that one 164, where hope burns bright.

Speaker 6:

patience is quickly consumed. Yes, and 192, when the trials of the world broke, man the outside leaked into the world. Those are my favorites. Good quote. I got one, but I don't know what page it is. There were two paths. Now, you're understood that now.

Speaker 4:

There was the past that men remembered, and there was the past that we didn't know, and rarely, if ever, were they the same. All men stood in thrall of the ladder, and knowing this made them insane.

Speaker 1:

I like that. Yeah, I have that underlined. I think that's what Carl was referring to earlier, with the whole.

Speaker 2:

That was one of the passages, so page 119, the epigraph history.

Speaker 3:

Maybe it's because both subjects don't require any idea what that's saying, I don't. I mean I understand in the most literal sense. It's very little, it's very straightforward. I understand knowledge or experiences or something like that.

Speaker 2:

So it's like there's no value, but this would be taught by slaves. What is this? I mean, I'll bring these topics to life, I guess.

Speaker 3:

What is that me? He just needs to repeat what other people smarter than him taught him before.

Speaker 2:

I get what you're saying.

Speaker 1:

I agree with you for logic and arithmetic, but history seems like a very dangerous quote unquote. Dangerous thing to ask a slave to teach.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I also. Yeah, history, that is a big one for a slave to teach, right that's.

Speaker 1:

The slaves start history. Maybe there wouldn't be any slaves.

Speaker 2:

Oh damn, Getting real.

Speaker 1:

Your past self may not recognize. You Don't remember what that note was about. I had this underline, like it's not a quoteable quote, but I think this was important, and he realized that he would gladly die for Anna Surinbar-Kellis. He would begrudge no sacrifice, despite his unrequited love.

Speaker 3:

Oh, he doesn't want to see it, even if it was terrible. That is terrifying Because he is what he's been waiting for.

Speaker 1:

I think Akamyan, near yes, but Akamyan, someone like Akamyan you really want him to look into at least some of the manipulation that Kellis is doing willfully, but it seems that he has no clue.

Speaker 2:

He's blind. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

He has that moment of I want to call it awareness, when Kellis asks him hey, did you ever try it with two unutterables, or whatever that was? When he's teaching him the gnosis and Akamyan does not tell him about the long lasting debate because the thought he has is he gave someone balladona. He didn't actually do the killing, but three people died anyway. All he had to do was pass along some poison, and so he's terrified of what this would do in Kellis' hands. So it seems that he's starting. At least he has some realization of what could be wrought with it by Kellis.

Speaker 3:

I know it takes a while to realize and he's not giving in to the full extent of that thought, or is that just a passing call that no one should have?

Speaker 1:

No, it's not Maybe, that's just it Like he's testing him all.

Speaker 3:

He was testing him all the way.

Speaker 5:

He said, in that case he should have done the wrong thing Like prove me wrong.

Speaker 3:

He should or like or prove me right, Like I need to. I need some way that you need to convince me to overcome my reluctance, Because he wants, he wants it, but he wants him to prove that he's the prophet right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

I think it wasn't in Manchurna, but he could leave because he hasn't started seeing the dreams or something.

Speaker 1:

The dreams that the Mandate Schoolmen have. Is that a product of learning the gnosis, or is that something that is?

Speaker 3:

I think something introductory, so maybe not the actual gnosis. Like here you've graduated, now you can have nightmares. No, you can see your seniors imagine, right, but not fully. So maybe there's some leap you need to do that brings you to a different level. Maybe, I don't know, yeah, yeah. I mean he wouldn't be afraid, I guess. So what is he going to do with them?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'd be very curious what the dreams look like.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I guess, because people when they're there they feel what's just what is doing right? It's not control. Yeah, so I wonder how. That's a great point. Yeah, that says not to be a control.

Speaker 1:

Or would it change it? Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I have this one marked, though I don't think I know what it means. Love was never so simple as the marks with which it was written Like. I mean, I kind of got it from the context around it, but the line in and of itself, and that was pretty, at least, if not something I fully understood. Cool, that seems like a good place to call it. Any other things that we should discuss? No, okay, let's do autos. Steve, would you like to start us off?

Speaker 6:

Sure you can find me on page2ingcom. I'll be quick like Dan.

Speaker 2:

Oh yes, you can also find me on page2ingcom or on a lot of social media at Carl D Albert.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, you can also find me at page2ing and, if you're so inclined, please tune into the page2ing comics and manga. Steve and I regularly talk about our picks of the week, so check that out.

Speaker 1:

We're creating some cycles. You can find me on the page2ing forum as well or on my YouTube channel Reading by Drainy Mountain, and I'll also plug our new sci-fi podcast called Speculative Speculations. The episodes have been coming out on Spotify in the last couple of weeks. We'll also start putting them out on YouTube in the next week or so. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see everyone in about a week with the next set of chapters. Bye, bye, bye.

Discussion of Thousandfold Thought Characters
(Cont.) Discussion of Thousandfold Thought Characters
Analysis of Societal Dynamics in Fiction
Character Analysis and Thematic Development
Exploring Character Complexity in Fantasy
Character Development and Plot Ambiguity
Confusion and Speculation in Book Series
Anticipating the Trilogy Conclusion
Discussion on Book Etymology and Quotes