Discover the intricacies of epic narratives as we unravel the layers of literature and cinema that captivated us this February. Together, we wander through the narrative intricacies of "The Spear Cuts Through Water," debate the merits of magical realism, and revisit the rich textures of "Malazan Book of the Fallen" and "Dune." We also contrast the investment in history books with their fictional counterparts and share our recent journey into the realm of film, seeking a refreshing complement to our reading adventures.
Horror takes the spotlight where we uncover the genre's varied offerings, from Mariana Enriquez's chilling tales to the allegorical depth of Stephen King's works. We dissect the often-overlooked literary quality present in genre series and standalones, like those from Ian M. Banks and Ursula K. Le Guin, pondering the bias that sometimes shadows speculative fiction. The conversation then shifts to the challenges avid readers face when presented with distinctive storytelling methods, including those found in 'House of Leaves,' and the genre expectations that shape the fantasy landscape.
Rounding off our chat, we dive into the thematic richness of "Truth of Crowns" and the intrigue surrounding Jeff VanderMeer's trilogy. As we venture into the chilling domain of horror films, we examine the psychological impact of movies that linger, such as "Hereditary," and offer recommendations for those new to the genre. Finally, we express our thoughts on overlooked performances in horror cinema, openly discussing the industry's recognition shortcomings. Join us on the Page Chewing forum to continue the dialogue, and immerse yourself in this month's compelling fusion of page and screen.
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Discover the intricacies of epic narratives as we unravel the layers of literature and cinema that captivated us this February. Together, we wander through the narrative intricacies of "The Spear Cuts Through Water," debate the merits of magical realism, and revisit the rich textures of "Malazan Book of the Fallen" and "Dune." We also contrast the investment in history books with their fictional counterparts and share our recent journey into the realm of film, seeking a refreshing complement to our reading adventures.
Horror takes the spotlight where we uncover the genre's varied offerings, from Mariana Enriquez's chilling tales to the allegorical depth of Stephen King's works. We dissect the often-overlooked literary quality present in genre series and standalones, like those from Ian M. Banks and Ursula K. Le Guin, pondering the bias that sometimes shadows speculative fiction. The conversation then shifts to the challenges avid readers face when presented with distinctive storytelling methods, including those found in 'House of Leaves,' and the genre expectations that shape the fantasy landscape.
Rounding off our chat, we dive into the thematic richness of "Truth of Crowns" and the intrigue surrounding Jeff VanderMeer's trilogy. As we venture into the chilling domain of horror films, we examine the psychological impact of movies that linger, such as "Hereditary," and offer recommendations for those new to the genre. Finally, we express our thoughts on overlooked performances in horror cinema, openly discussing the industry's recognition shortcomings. Join us on the Page Chewing forum to continue the dialogue, and immerse yourself in this month's compelling fusion of page and screen.
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PAGECHEWING: Comics & Manga Podcast
Film Chewing Podcast
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Logo by The GlimmerTwin Art House
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Hello friends, welcome to the Friday Conversation, episode 105. We'll be wrapping up our month of February. We'll be talking about books and movies and traumatizing movies. So I'll get into it. But, jared, will you start us off with an introduction?
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Jared. I run the Fantasy Thinker YouTube channel and often can be found on the page chewing forums.
Speaker 1:I'm Paramita.
Speaker 3:Hello everyone. My name is Paramita. I like to read books in a variety of genres and I also recently started watching movies and maybe some TV, so excited to talk about that.
Speaker 1:So now you're going to take over the. You're going to feed us all in movies too now. So, jared, do you want to start us off with what you've been reading, and how's your month been?
Speaker 2:Pretty good. Pretty good Considering how short it's been this month. We still got five days left. I finished the Spear Cuts Through Water by Simon Jimenez. I was doing a read along with that and that was pretty fun. Pretty good book. I think you must have read that right, paramita, yeah, do you like it?
Speaker 3:I have a good book, magical realism. Surrealism is not really Paramita.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can see that if that's not your thing, but I liked it. I liked the style and I liked the second person narration that went into that. So that was kind of interesting and fun. Steve, we finished Stories of your Life by Ted Chang. Yes, it was mercifully over, it's mercifully over.
Speaker 2:I've never seen such a clear cut case of short stories that are too long in just about every instance in that book. Some great ideas, but really just too long. That was strange because it's like I don't know. We've read other books where they have a great idea and they extend into a novel and it's not much of a problem, but for some reason. Yeah, so it was okay. We also finished Annihilation by Jeff Andemir and that was pretty cool, really liked that a lot. And I finished Lord of Light by Roger Salasny and I had a blast with that one too. That was a lot of fun and that's part of our sci-fi masterworks read along here on page chewing. So that was a great book. And we finished the Fate Out by Bruce Baker and Phillips. That's outstanding, the graphic novel.
Speaker 2:And I read a couple of short stories called Returns, which goes with the book the Wooden Burn. It's in that universe and that's what I finished, still in the middle of Grand Conspiracy, janie Wurz's fifth book, the Wars of Light and Shadow, and I've about a hundred no, almost 200 pages into Dust of Dreams, my reread of Malus and Book of Fallen, and two thirds of the way through Dune Geez Doing that read along with Angel from the Unicorn's Read, and I'm almost halfway through a nonfiction book called Following Caesar, which is this historian who's doing kind of like doing a travelogue of following Caesar's path through Italy and then through the Balkans, and he's like trying to. He's finding the places that are still you can still see some of the actual historical or architectural stuff from 2000 years ago, and so it's pretty cool. He's kind of detailed that it's a little different than my usual nonfiction reading, but it's short though.
Speaker 1:So do you? Do you have a? Does it take an adjustment period for you to what go from fiction to nonfiction?
Speaker 2:No, not really. I read magazines too with a lot of nonfiction articles, so but history especially is not much of an adjustment, because history can be a great story in and of itself and so you know, as long as you, if you take that story approach to it, it's, you know, it can be just as rewarding as a fiction, fictional, especially history books that have like a big picture type history book. You know you can almost treat that as an epic novel, you know epic fantasy type thing, if without the dragons. But so that's, it's all how you approach it. I guess you know I'm not, I don't read history books anymore to analyze stuff. I just read it for interesting information and and I read it for the story of, of humanity. And that's how I approach it. I guess you, I guess other people could approach it in a more analytical way, but I don't. And and we started the authority for the second book in Van Damier's Southern Reach trilogy, so that's, that's fun, and yeah, what else? And I read a, you know, a select bunch of comics.
Speaker 1:So On your read of melaton. Is it? Are you finding, are you noticing a lot more in your side Second read, or are you, um, absolutely Is it a different experience?
Speaker 2:It is. It's a completely different experience. I am absolutely I'm getting even more out of it than I did the first time, and I don't know if I can say that about everything, but definitely with the, with malls and I mean I got. I got more out of this, like I did a reread of Lord of the Rings one time and I got more out of it when I reread that one too. I'm getting more out of Dune. That's a reread for me too, but the last time I read it was like 20 years ago. So that's quite a bit more difference than you know something that you're rereading. Well, I guess, I guess, I guess Malosen was 10 years ago, so it's kind of the same, I guess you know. But yeah, really good books you get, you get you catch more stuff. You know that's and that's. I don't really do many re-reads other than other than Malosen and, and I did Lord of the Rings and now Dune. But I'm surprised at how much I'm enjoying it, like even more than the first time.
Speaker 1:And we watched Two Detective season.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's right we're doing. We're doing shows too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a mixed bag. Yeah, there was some. There was some strong opinions on on our podcast no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can say that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the finale was something yeah.
Speaker 2:That's true. Yeah, that's funny and yeah, I'm trying to think of what else I've watched the past month, but not much really. That's pretty much it, as far as I haven't been really glued to anything on TV lately Other than that.
Speaker 1:Seems like a TV. It was very there was a lot of really great stuff maybe 10 years ago. Yeah, seems to get kind of hit a peak and then it's been the quality of it's been kind of dipping a little bit.
Speaker 2:Well, I wonder if we're in it. We're in the. We're getting the hangover from the strike.
Speaker 1:Like you know.
Speaker 2:I wonder if that's part of it. They just don't have as much stuff right now.
Speaker 1:It could be.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's it Right, that's enough. Right, it's quite a bit.
Speaker 1:It's quite a bit. I don't know how you manage so many different like words about in shadow Malazon, the other fantasy books you're reading. That's a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, I blame Vashra. She talks me into a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 1:It's always versus yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and you know I throw in short stories here and there and mixed up a bit, but I didn't. You know, maybe it's because I'm watching less TV these days that I'm able to take more in on the reading side and, to be honest, I think I probably prefer it that way.
Speaker 1:Use your imagination. More Less of it's more Interest. It's more to be present. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's more. Yeah, what's the word I'm looking for? It's more active entertainment instead of inactive entertainment. I don't know. There's another word. There's another word I'm looking for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's my mind's feeling me too. Yeah, it's just a different experience. Yeah, that's it, paramitha, you've taken. Are you reading as much as you were before, or is it? Are your? Is your movie watching taken over your reading time?
Speaker 3:Taken over a bit, but I'm reading shorter books, so at least this year I've been reading a lot of shorter books, so it's about the same. So far, it's about the same.
Speaker 1:So what made you get into movies? What was it that?
Speaker 3:I think I wanted to. I always liked watching movies, but then I just stopped, I think for three, four years, and I used to actually like going and watching movies in the theater, but then I stopped. So anyway, I think somebody, two people on a different, just two different, just thought servers and on for me that you know, instead of this, it seemed like you're just getting through books to chase that high, and maybe if you had another hobby and you diverted a bit, it would make you enjoy your reading a bit more as well, instead of, like, the moment you finish another book, you're going to the next book and then so on and so forth, because I wasn't having a very good reading time.
Speaker 3:So that's what made me get into movies. And, with respect to movies, one person who was giving me recommendations told me this that it's actually interesting to give me recommendations because I'm almost a blank split. I have no idea what has come out. I have no idea who the actors or actresses are. I have no idea what I like also. So it's not like books, where I would look at the synopsis and I would look at reviews or and say, oh, I'm not going to like it, or have some preconceived notion. In movies, I have no preconceived notion. I don't even look at the synopsis. If someone tells me something they're like try this, I'm like okay, it's much more free flowing.
Speaker 1:Are you? Are you finding it? Is it a different kind of enjoyment, different kind of experience to to watch?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, it's been a mixed. It's been a mixed, but yeah, in general. I also think like movies. I've only DNF one movie. I've not stopped watching something because I dislike it. Even if it's something is possible, it's still work. I think the audio visual factors and everything there's enough there to keep me engaged that I don't get bored as easily maybe. So it is different very much.
Speaker 1:So what? What did you DNF? What did you? What movie did you DNF?
Speaker 3:The one I DNF was Princess Mononoke. It's an anime and I think I got about 10 or 15 minutes into it and it's a very highly recommended film by the popular bookworm, who has really nice face. I was very sad as well, because it's one of her favorite anime films, but I was not getting anything from it, so I stopped that one. It's a studio Ghibli film. I think it's a Miyazaki film. Actually I didn't even know. I thought Miyazaki was. They're like you have to watch these Miyazaki films.
Speaker 1:So what other movies did you watch this month?
Speaker 3:I watched quite a lot. So I watched 20 or 24. Geez, let me check. Yeah, I think about 20 or 24. Out of them, four were anime and rest are regular. And then there was one TV show for which I tried one episode and I didn't like it. It's not for me. It's called Black Stales. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it's pirates, like, I think, I, susanna, and I even offered on the forum she said that to give it a try, and also another person said that maybe you give it a try. I don't like not to put stuff and I don't like pirate, and it was just not my thing. But the movies that I really liked were one was Pan's Labyrinth, which I saw fairly recently. I saw the Grand Budapest Hotel. It was very nice.
Speaker 3:I liked this book called this film called Good.
Speaker 3:Will Hunting, which I didn't know about also, but it was very nice. I watched a movie called Alien. That was very, very good. It was brilliant. And then other movies which were also really, really good were Hereditary, which is, I would say, psychological Horror. And there was also a movie called the Thing, the 1982 version. I was explicitly told to watch the 1982 version and I would also say that is psychological horror with some speculative elements. It was a very good movie.
Speaker 3:There are other films I watched as well. Like I watched a movie called District 9. It was interesting. I watched Arrival. I liked Arrival. So this is actually based on a shop story with dad and Steve Boat. For reference from that collection it's in fact the title, the story of the life.
Speaker 3:I liked the movie. Didn't really like the ending, so, but I liked the movie. I watched Interstellar and I usually liked Nolan. I liked that. Again, I did not like the last. There is a particular point where something happens in the movie and after that what happens. Till the end I didn't really fight with it. It was not my thing.
Speaker 3:And Ahillation this is based on Jeff Andamia's book. It's an okay movie. I cannot separate the movie from the work If it's an adaptation. I think it was a terrible misinterpretation of the book. No, no, no. So that's why I didn't like it, but it's a good movie. I think I didn't like Silent Hill, which was again, I thought there's a game based on this particular property, but there's also a movie I didn't like it too much. And there's a movie called the Descent, which was scary, but it didn't scare me too much because after a point I saw the pills coming.
Speaker 3:I think the scariest movie I've probably watched so far is Hereditary, because that sort of it did horror the way I liked it, whereas something like Alien was also very, very good. And there were some other movies I watched, like Emily, which was not for me. The Fountain, not for me. The Dark Knight, by also an Olan film, actually, and not for me Midsummer, which is also by the same director who made Hereditary, but it was not for me. That's a very personal thing.
Speaker 3:I don't like cults at all. You don't like cults here. Stay away from Midsummer, maybe, I don't know. It was very, very disturbing, not in a good way. And then the movie that I just finished watching today, before I came for the show, was this film called Infinity Pool. It was just so horrifying. I get what the director was trying to show, but the visuals were too traumatizing for me. It's not my thing Anything with blood and entry and very graphic sexual stuff I don't want to spoil too much or anything and it's just that icky vibe which got exacerbated and the film doesn't really let up. So it was tough. The best movies that I watched were in anime. Actually there's a movie called Grave of the Fireflies which I gave 10 on 10. It was perfect. I don't have anything to say that you know, or maybe this could have been it. It was perfect. And then another movie which I also really liked was Spirited Away.
Speaker 2:Oh, I liked that.
Speaker 3:I liked that. Yeah, Spirit of the Firefly was good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:There are two other movies I watched. One is Garden of Words. I liked it, but not too much, and then one which I didn't really like was Nausicaa. That's all.
Speaker 1:Have you seen the Berserk Enemy I?
Speaker 3:Have not if, if, like, I'm a bit sad, I am aware of it, but I'm a bit scared because For that is so perfect in my mind in what it's trying to do, that if it I'm going to be so mad. If doesn't, do you recommend it?
Speaker 1:I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, after you see it, I will. If you, if you vouch for it, then I'll go for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm afraid to to get spoiled before I finish the manga.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you've been busy. What did you? What did you read?
Speaker 3:So let me tell the numbers and then I'll tell some highlight. So, total, I read 59 books so far. Out of those, just one five star, one book which I really really liked enough to give five stars, which is a new read. Two were really, so those I'm not mentioning. The one which I really liked and I gave five stars to was a green mile by Stephen King. I was a very, very moving. I really really liked it. Other than this, some good books that I read I read this book called the bad body snatchers, which was you can say science fiction, you can say speculative fiction.
Speaker 3:It was a. It was a very nice book. I read a book which won the international booker in 2021, called at night, all blood is black, by David Day of it. I highly recommend it and again, I would recommend to just go in Without reading too much about the book. It's not to get spoiled, but that is written in a particular manner which I think is very impactful. You go and it's um sort of surrealist, but it's it's not leaning in too much into the surrealist atmosphere. It's using that to, let's say, represent a particular culture or history or through a particular perspective. That's about as much as I would give away. Uh, I did a buddy read Seven short stories by georgia louis borges and the collection was called library of nibble, that is. That was also actually technically a reread, because I've read the stories before. That's semi cemetery by steven king really liked, really, really liked that.
Speaker 3:Uh, I really like this book called the hearing to trump it by leonara clientin. It's a very short novel I think it's like 150 pages in that rain and leonara clientin was an artist, but she was also. She also wrote. She was also a writer and this is one of her Seminal work. So, again, this is about uh, an old lady and uh, how do I say this? Do not mess with old lady which was fun. Uh.
Speaker 3:So one theme which I should say is I've been doing this Um latin. Initially it was Spanish. I was trying to read world literature and I chose uh Spanish as the language, and then after, as I was getting into Spanish literature, because of what happened in history, a big part of Spanish literature is Latin american literature. So then I actually Changed the project to latin american uh Literature, and so a lot of books that I have been reading in january and this month are from that place. What has been trans? So there are a lot of titles. That's why borges comes up, and there are a lot of other titles.
Speaker 3:Um, one thing that I started getting into very recently. So it's partly related to king, I guess, but it's also because I'm interested in um horror as being done by these some contemporary latin american authors. And uh, there's this author, mariana andriques. So I read this interview by her where she said that, um, there was a period she's a priest from argentina, she's also a journalist, and she said there was a period in argentina where People were living in such fear, in some uncertainty, due to what was happening on the political side, but civilians also were caught in the craft files that the only way to process that is through the medium of literature is, for her, through horror. And I read two short story collections by her. One is called the dangers of smoking in bed and the other one is called things we lost in the fire. I really like both of them. I like things we lost in the fire, more dangers of smoking in bed. Though it was translated later, it actually came out earlier in originally in argentina. You can see it's a bit bit of a new writer sort of thing, but it's still a very good, still very good short story. The things we lost in fire is really really leaning into that, you can almost, and it's I think it's very universal. So it is not specific to the geography for the genes she's writing about, but maybe her experiences or what she has seen, what she knows, those things come into the story and I I really like that, not being too preachy or not being too overt, but nevertheless building deep theming through horror, because horror is literature, it is serious literature and the reason why I knew Mariana Andrekas is because her book she wrote a novel as well which I've read, which is called our share of night. That was, I think, was short listed as well, but definitely long listed for the international booker last year. So it it was very, it was a very good moment to see genre fiction coming into these literary awards.
Speaker 3:I've always been of the mind that, you know, horror is not for me and I don't understand horror, but maybe this can be a Inlet into it. So what I don't like is body horror or slasher, I agree, but that that doesn't mean I mean horror is such a wide genre and I'm interacting more with friends, bookworms, who read horror much more widely, and they're introducing me to a lot of things that I don't know about. So, even within Stephen King's mover, for example, if I I just if I would have just lost out that, oh, stephen King is a horror writer and 11, 20 to 63 years. But other than that, most of his novels and like they're not for me, but my friends who have actually read all of Stephen King's work and then was very kind to be Selecting titles that, oh, power metal might like this, might like this, so that's how, and both of them were highlights for for this reading month.
Speaker 3:So I do want to get into a bit more of reading horror literature and I want to get more into I'm reasonably satisfied with how I've done with the Latin American reading project. I want to get more into rereading some of the books that I've liked. Other than that, I'm trying to think if I read anything which I want to mention. Oh, this was a question. This is Canadian, mexican, but this book was really good. It's Mexican Gothic by Sylvia Moreno Garcia. I want to read more by her as well. She's a very, very good In this book that I read. Other than that, I've read a few classics, but uh, overall, other than these, it's not been. So if you think about the number of titles I mentioned, what? Maybe seven, eight? The others have not been Good for me. I'm sure it's not been a very good reading, but I'm happy about the titles that I found. That's it from.
Speaker 1:Uh, question for both of you, and we talked about this a little bit on the forum. But why? Why do you think horror isn't isn't taken more seriously in a lot of literary circles? On that, it isn't kind of given as much weight as other genres.
Speaker 2:Is it not like I? I mean, I know it's not Given weight as compared to contemporary literature, but I have no idea how it stacks up against, you know, fancier science fiction or what have you? Um, so I wouldn't know the answer to that. I, I don't know why I, like I don't know why all those genres are not given there do compared to Contemporary literature, because I there's so much good stuff out there that that should be in the same. You know it's the same conversation, but, um, I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with the horror genre that much, so I'm not sure how that would stack up against other genres per se.
Speaker 1:What do you think, parmita?
Speaker 3:Uh, I think you're right, steve, in that. Uh, I mean again, this is a synonymic dot on statistical evidence but I think the most literary, which means that people who primarily read literary fiction or classics are most likely to really read science fiction. So that's probably topmost in terms of what gets credibility, what might get nominated for prizes that typically go to literary fiction works. Second, in my opinion, is probably horror. I think fantasy gets the worst and one guess for that would be largely literary fiction is about standalone works. You, whatever you have to say in a book. Usually I'm not saying, of course you have many, many exceptions, but again, those also you can. Okay, you have, for example, the greatest modernist novel of the 20th century is in search of lost time, that seven volumes. There are many exceptions. You have trilogies and all that prime. Usually it's a single novel that gets, that gets nominated for an award and or that gets studied, or it's a particular author maybe, and science fiction does that very well, of course. You have very long running science fiction series, but even something like the culture series by Ian and by, or a silica, a Gwyn with her heinous cycle. Those are connected standalone, but you can read them in any order and you can choose to read some or not all of them. And these are authors that would be considered literary. I mean people who don't consider them literally. We can have a conversation, but they would be in that conversation typically for people who read literary fiction. Octavia Butler is another person. She did do all the G's or trilogies, but again, you can read dawn and stop at that. You can read pattern master and stop. Sorry, that's the fourth book actually, I forgot what's the first. While seed. You can read while seed and stop. Margaret Atwood. You can read oryx and Craig top at that. You can read just handmade sale.
Speaker 3:There's this element and speculative or science fiction whereby, first of all, shorter books and second of all, and the loans Third of all, and perception that it is more ideas based or theme based as a general overall and of course you have people who want to distance themselves from because you have science fiction and you have people battling out the space wars and stuff. But there is enough in science fiction going around and there's enough cross fertilization between that literary fiction and science fiction. Historically, particularly in American literature, not so well versed in how it was in the European scene, that science fiction is taken seriously. Second, I would actually say, is horror, because, again, horror is not as prone to serious artists as fantasy is. There are more horror novels, novellas, short story collections, and I don't think long series is as much of a phenomenon in horror, even among current authors. Correct me if you're wrong, steve, because you read more horror than me. So, again, the concept of nominating a single war or is is more.
Speaker 3:And the second thing is, horror is intimately related to cycle, it is related to psyche, it is related to the environment, and environment can very easily be taken as something geographical, but also you can incorporate historical elements, you can incorporate cultural elements into the environment, and so it is perhaps easier to make a connection, an allegorical connection, with horror than it is for fantasy, because fantasy a lot of it tends to go into secondary world, a lot of it. And then, yes, I think the worst draft is reserved for fantasy. Yeah, I can't think of any books other than Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. I can't think it. No, I don't think China Mables works have even been nominated for book. Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell was one of the rare books which got nominated for at least it made the book a long list. I think American God was in the conversation at least. But yes, you will find handsome book and again, these are standalone. So the conversation of these long running series, because fantasy, I mean, I have seen people make videos or people make posts asking for fantasy standalone, perhaps it is a bit more of a rarity than science fiction and horror, and so I don't know I mean that is a pure guess as to why it is not taken seriously by the literary.
Speaker 3:And this is what Jared said. It is the same issue that. But I mean I mean, instead of trying to criticize the literary, I'll say I think it's a question of not having the doors and windows of one's mind open, either individually or as a collective. For example, I thought horror was not for me, and so that does. Does that mean that all horror is not for me? But then I don't want to try and see which horror will be for me, because that takes time and it's not exactly obvious how to search or who to ask.
Speaker 3:And if you are in a collective or in a community reading community where you primarily read literary fiction and you talk to other people who read literary fiction, it's much easier to cultivate an attitude or we don't need to go into this genre and, it is to you know, traverse that genre either historically or just from a wide area of contemporary works and select the gems and sort of ask that question are we missing out something by totally ruling out this entire body of work which has this label? So I think it could just be ingrained attitudes and maybe a bit of that bias that comes in, that you know we talk to people who read similar things as us, who review similar things to us, and so we get into this sort of echo chamber. That those are my guesses. What do you think, steve?
Speaker 1:I think you made some good points. I know you mentioned I do think fantasy does get a bad rap. I think a lot of people see fantasy, I think, first. Like you mentioned, I think it's very you'd be very intimidating. I think a lot of fantasy books are a lot longer than other genres. Yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 1:Like a thriller, you can pick up a thriller or even like a like an action type of book and it's 300 pages. But a fantasy book you look for, most of them are five to 700, maybe even more than that, and I think they take a little bit more. And I just think they take a little bit more effort to get into them sometimes because they are something like Malazan or Prince of Nothing or even something like Game of Thrones can, or Song of Us in Fire can be intimidating to get into because there's so many characters and there's your building a world from the bottom up. And I do think that fantasy has a reputation for some people of being like what the outcasts read or, like you know, like the kind of being associated with nerd culture, but not in a good way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, that's definitely a case when I was, when I was growing up that was like, definitely looked down upon just because I was reading fantasy novels and back in the 80s and stuff.
Speaker 3:I, the number of literary fiction booktubers I have seen saying because they, I think they have this, those tag videos, and one question is what is a genre you don't read at all? The number of people have said saying with you know, quite definitely, and I need to their own, of course, but you know that that derision is just like, it's like I don't read fantasy, like one thing that I would absolutely not read is fantasy, and I'm like, okay, I do think that there is one of my friends on discord told me this. I agree with this, actually, now that she says she said that fantasy is actually the most difficult to read compared to, you know, shorter literary fiction novels and all, and I actually think she's right.
Speaker 3:I, my ability to handle multiple, multiple POVs or, you know, whatever, everything else that is being dabbled with my limit is probably a song of ice and fire. If you go beyond that, I would tend to get lost or just thrown out. And it's a lot of commitment, because I think I can feel like a single data point case study here. For last two months I've not read any, any, anything actually, other than forth wing, which was just a fun buddy read with, but I haven't read any fantasy really, and the amount of books that you can read, as you said, even mostly literature, fiction or short story collections, horror novellas, just in general, even classic novellas that it takes to go through dense immersive secondary world epic fantasy novel is unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Even, even Stephen Donaldson mentioned in one of his essays that there's an aversion to having to break down and analyze something that's of a greater length. In academia there's an aversion to that as well, and the fantasy fits into that mold. It's it's, it's longer, it's complicated, and the you know, like you said, with the you know, a song of ice and fire, has a ton of POVs and and it has, and it has extensive world building and and you have to, you have to take all that in in order to even attempt any kind of analysis. Or you know, like that and and like you said, parameter, that's not even that's not even the most complicated and most you know, so it's there. So there is an aversion to delve into those works in academia itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think when you look on, when you go, if you're in a bookstore I don't know for those of you still go to bookstores when you look on the shelf and you see a series like, even like Wheel of Time, and you see what is like 10 books or 14. I mean, you look at, it's intimidating. It's like I can't read all those, but I can't read that much, like most people don't read the way most of us, like you know, those of us here read. So I think it's intimidating to see these big, fat books and you just like, doesn't it take me forever to get through? So it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's something to be said about the time investment to that's involved in the amount of mental energy it takes to to get into a really dense fantasy book. It's not, as you know, as disposable, as digestible as other genres. I mean like romance. It's a little. I think a lot of people like romance because you, you can get into it and you can, you can enjoy it, and then it's over and then you move on to the next one with a whole different set of characters. Even if it's you kind of know what to expect, it's still like a comfort because you, you kind of know what you're getting into and there are different subgenres and romance, but it's, you know they're they're short and they're, you know, enjoyable and you're done.
Speaker 1:But with fantasy it's okay. You got through this 1000 page book. Now read the other nine of them and then you'll understand what the first one was about. So it's, it's a lot. Yeah, I know you just spent you know 13 hours reading this book. I know it doesn't make sense just hanging there. You know, like it's most people, you know a lot of people are willing to do that and that's fine and that's nothing wrong with that. Just, I think that's one of the things that kind of, I think fantasy would really benefit from stand-alone, from just three 400 page books. Just you can get into it and you can get out, and I think that would bring more people in to the genre.
Speaker 2:That brings up another conundrum now in then. How do you create a secondary world in 300 pages? That's tough. Yeah, it's tough, really tough.
Speaker 3:I guess the thing is what I mean. If somebody is interested in epic fantasy, let's say it's so hard to tell to give a recommendation In general. If somebody says I want to get into reading, I want to read a book, it's so hard to give a recommendation for a fantasy book. You know, without I would usually give them a Neil Gaiman sort of thing where you know, like, try, ocean, at the end of the lane it's piranesi. Yeah, these, these sort of things are not terrifying. Okay, wizard of Earthsea, I mean, now that you mention it, I'm just going to say this a bit A Wizard of Earthsea is. It's not, it's secondary world fantasy. It's 200 pages.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I do think there is a bit of editorial leeway that goes on in a lot of epic fantasy series where it's a bit. I know that one one function is immersion, and immersion happens because you spend time in the world. But I have read many, many books, even the books that I have like. Let me give a concrete example instead of dissing on something which I haven't liked. Weissman's Fear King Killer Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss is a very, very dear series to me. Weissman's Fear is a thousand pages in paperback. Easily it could have been 700.
Speaker 2:I have read that 30% is too much.
Speaker 3:I think 10 to 15% is authorial discretion. It's really not the place of the reader when 30% is in a thousand page book, and that's where I think the numbers are just stunning for me mentally, because if a hundred page book, if it could have been 70, is not the same feeling as a thousand page book which could have been 700. Yeah, just when you go up to that order of magnitude and as you said, steve, then you have book after book, like that Burnout is real. I mean I confess that I am actually a victim of what you're saying. I can't look at a long fantasy series now. I mean I look at it and I'm like how many books are there? Three. But if I see if it's 900 pages later, I'm like I can't do it. I just can't do it. It's like a mental block.
Speaker 3:So this thing that you're saying, when you go and I do go into book store I like it a lot and I see those series and they look very nice I can't even take it out to look at the front Sorry, at the back cover and read the synopsis and just like I can't do it, I can't do it, let's go to it. It's not even the. It's not even the number of books, because now I think there is a move towards. I think Carl Albert was an author and who's on our forum, mentioned this month that there is a bit of hesitation in the post term light. I mean that was the last long one for publishers to promote a series longer than trilogy, so they're not going for these long five or seven book series. So it's not even the number of installments, but it's just the width of the book. I look at the width of book.
Speaker 2:That's interesting considering how much you read, like you read, you read, you know.
Speaker 3:I know it and I have been told. I've been told is that for me that's so strange because even if it's long, if you spend time on it, you would get through it. It would not take you one month, for example. Right, I don't know. It almost like a mental block If someone tells me you want to read this series. I looked at it and I was like I can't do this.
Speaker 3:It's so strange, it's been going on for almost I would say, one and a half to two months now I haven't touched anything. I started Red Rising. I read the first book and then I was like, oh my god, there are going to be seven books come out. It's so strange and I feel bad as well, because it means that a lot of the communities that I'm part of I don't know what they are reading, but I'm not reading anything with them Like novella, novella, novella, which is a horror, is very reassuring in that sense because even as I'm looking up horror writers, I'm looking at a fast horror writer.
Speaker 3:A lot of it is short fiction and a lot of it is. They have novellas and, yes, they have novels where even the novels are standalone. The only exception I can think of is Clive Barker. Like he has this horror six book series. I got six book series, I think, which is got like chonkers, but even then, for example, I think this came up Ima Jika is one by Clive Barker which is on my radar. Even that is 846 pages and it's done. It's nothing compared to some of these behemoths that are around. You pick up the book and it's a brick. I always say it's a good arm workout, unless you're doing digital or audio. Does that happen to you both? By the way, I know Steve asked Jared about alternating between fiction and nonfiction, but do you get a particular genre burnout? For example, would you be able to binge through a five book fantasy series?
Speaker 1:I don't know what about, but I think it would depend on those series and your definition of binge.
Speaker 3:I think one a month, let's say. I think I handle that.
Speaker 1:One a month isn't bad, one a week might be too much.
Speaker 2:I never read more than one In the same series. I would never read more than one a month.
Speaker 3:I always get to mix it up a little bit, but I don't have.
Speaker 2:It can be different fantasy. Though I don't have genre burnout, I would switch to a different fantasy series or a different type of storytelling. There's a lot of variety within fantasy, just like there's a lot of variety in horror and science fiction too. A lot of people outside genre fiction don't realize that they clump it all into one. They think everything's Lord of the Rings or whatever. But there is a lot of variety within the fantasy series, fantasy genre that you can fall back on and really mix it up a lot. That's what I do.
Speaker 1:I've had fantasy burnout If I'm reading more than a couple at a time. I think a lot of them have. Just like any other genre, there's similarities throughout different series. For me, I get characters mixed up or I get places and events and histories mixed up. If I read too many fantasy books at a time, I start to mix it up with other things like graphic novels or even a short story collection or something science fiction, just to break it up a little bit.
Speaker 2:I did get burned out a little bit with history books. I actually used to read a lot more nonfiction history in the past. Before I started BookTube, I was reading at least one history book a month. I cut back on that because it's harder for me to find a history book now that I'm super interested in, because I have a whole huge bookshelf back there. I've read a lot, whereas fantasy I just keep finding new and interesting things all the time. It's like I read a lot of fantasy but I look back at what is old fantasy and I'm like how do I not read all these too? There's a lot out there.
Speaker 1:There's a ton out there and there's a ton Too much. I do wonder if there's a lot of the… Even like self-pub altars that write fantasy. I wonder if there's like almost an expectation that they have to write along Chonker when it doesn't necessarily have to be. I think there's a group of fantasy readers that expect long books and it's almost like we expect it to be 600 plus pages and I wonder if there's pressure to write a long book, to stretch things out, to make it a longer book, to appeal to that group of readers. So they love the long. So I don't know something we can ask one of our fantasy writing friends one of these days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the drive was behind, though that lengthening of the genre in general. I know most of the D&D related books I read back in the 80s. They were generally around 400, so they weren't the massive tombs we get today, and a lot of the 70s novels were like maybe 300, if that. And they literally they call them pocket books because you could fit them in your pocket, your back pocket, take them with you, and you can't do that with a Robert Jordan book or Ericsson or anything like that. They would pull your pants down, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I do think it's kind of funny that we talk about how these fantasy books are getting longer and everyone talks about attention to these bands getting smaller. It's just going the opposite way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting and understandable.
Speaker 1:Interesting topic for sure. Yeah, we'll have to ask one of our fantasy writing friends about that, about the size of. There's an expectation of a certain size? I wonder if there is or not. But like I said, Jordan, it might take that long to build a whole new world from scratch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean not everybody's Like, not everybody's a Le Guin, she's a master, unbelievable writer, so I can see her being able to do it in 200 pages and make it really great. But a lot of people were also trying to copy, toking, and even though I think the individual books for the Load of the Rings was Maybe they were 400, I think, I'm not sure, I don't remember. They were 400.
Speaker 2:But yeah but he did originally write it to be one book and that was his intention. So that would be a doorstopper. But you know, and so maybe in the impetus to the effort to imitate him, that's what led to longer books. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm just throwing stuff out there.
Speaker 3:I could be. I think that one I mean we were thinking about this a bit is that when we talk to people who read similar books to us because we find common ground in the book that we love, and so, within fantasies, communities of which have been part for the longest it's not so unusual to read 3, 900 page books in three consecutive months. It's fine. I mean, I'm thinking of the Robin Hobb Liveship Traders trilogy, for example. If somebody schedules a read-along, let's say Ship of Magic, january, mad Ship February, ship of Destiny, march it's not unheard of, let's say. But if we move even to, let's say, I won't go into the classics, but let's go into contemporary literary fiction with speculative elements.
Speaker 3:House of Leaves After you do a House of Leaves, read along. Nobody would expect you to do another book like House of Leaves in the next month. It's very, very unusual, very, very unusual. So it's almost like a matter of I won't say pride, but yes, there's definitely a matter of showing that. For example, doominaries, which was the Booker winner for 2013,. I think it's 800 or something pages. It mimics this 19th century structure and I think it's 900 pages actually. Anyway, so when people say I read the doominaries and it's like, oh, that's a big book. And in fantasy it's like, yeah, you read 900 pages. As what Steve was saying, read the next book, because you read 900 pages is not the end of the story, it's the prologue.
Speaker 3:A particular installment. Yeah, prologue, but maybe it's a different, the mindset is a bit different. I think that literary fiction people find that disorienting, in a similar way as if we were to read literary fiction all the time, might find, I don't know, maybe it's a bit wanting in terms of detail, maybe maybe for example, a lot of things don't get told, a lot of things don't get, and that's true for fantasy also.
Speaker 3:even in a very long fantasy novel, there is a lot to speculate and a lot that doesn't get resolved even then. But maybe the scale is different, maybe that's another thing. Or, just as what Jared said, the whole machinery that it takes to construct a secondary world and to introduce an element of believability in the reader, just using words, so that they don't read it and go this is ridiculous, it is yeah right, that's a good point, that it's different.
Speaker 3:So maybe it's different expectations. Different because I would definitely attest to the fact that I'm primarily used to reading novels and I think even reading a novella or reading a short story collection requires a different attuning of at least it required for me my brain to appreciate that in a short story collection I cannot use the same technique that I use in a novel. I needed to train myself to be able to read short stories after reading novels for a lengthy period and I was wondering maybe that's true for genres as well. Maybe we need to train our brain a bit to read horror, just as we need to train to read epic fantasy, to read literary fiction. I'm not saying it in a gatekeeping sort of way at all. I just mean that maybe it takes a bit of time and that's where keeping your mind open and asking the help of some friendly people.
Speaker 2:That's it. I think the open mind comment is key. I think the more open your mind I think it would be easier to make any of those adjustments the more open your mind is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely there's something to be said about kind of training your brain, because I know that when I first got into fantasy I struggled to keep up, more than I do now, with characters and world building and histories and locations and distances between locations and all that. So I think it does take a little bit of time to kind of get your footing and it does take effort. To whatever genre it is. I think it takes a little bit of time to just kind of find your footing and find a way that it makes sense to you that you can keep up, especially in a genre like fantasy that can be very dense and can be very. It takes mental energy, something like Borsal lot and shadow.
Speaker 1:I read 20 pages and it's like my brain hurts because it's so thick, like it's and I mean that in a good way but it takes a lot of Like Malausen. Like when I read Malausen, I read a chapter and my brain's like begging for a break, you know, because it's a lot Like there's a lot of things you have to. There's character names and past events and there's a lot. It's just so packed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and with writers like that, they're very literary too as well. So it's not just the fact that you're learning a bunch of new stuff and a bunch of new terms at a not of our world, you're also getting a very literary package in the mix.
Speaker 3:I just wanted to ask because both of you mentioned something which made me curious. So, jai, you said you read, used to read, a lot of history books, and this is something amazing to me because I do not retain. I've tried reading some nonfiction history books and it's very, very difficult for me to retain things, even with a period I'm relatively familiar with. And so I wanted to ask and, steve, similar question for you regarding House of Flames. So I wanted to ask both of you that when you used to approach Like Jared you were familiar with history books and Steve, you were familiar with horror when you approach a book which is a bit offbeat in that line, like, say, you read a history book which was written thematically instead of chronologically, or, steve, you approach House of Flames, did it take you by shock? Did you need to acclimatize a bit that hey, this is not usually what I read, I need to adjust or was it easier for you because you read the genre a lot?
Speaker 2:Go ahead, jared, I don't know. It's been a long time. I've been around a long time. I mean, history was my major. It was one of my dual majors in college, so you get a lot of stuff pounded into you about how to read stuff when you're going through college classes. So yeah, I don't know, it's not much of an adjustment for me nowadays, but I've also done a lot of reading over the past 40 years, so you get used to that.
Speaker 3:Maybe if I make the question something like you read a lot of fantasy. When you read something like spear cuts through water, does it require a bit of adjustment on your part, or are you still able to go with the flow I was able?
Speaker 2:to go with it.
Speaker 2:I've heard that other people say that they had trouble getting into his style not just you not just you, other people too that had trouble getting into his style because of the point of view the you point it, the second person and the first person point of view and the switching back and forth of it all the time, I don't know. I saw a couple reviews, so I was kind of expecting it and it didn't bother me at all. But you know, that's. So back to your question. I don't know, I guess I have to think about that.
Speaker 2:Okay, so science fiction. I wasn't a huge science fiction reader, other than stuff that's more fantasy like Dune. But some of the stuff we've been reading for this science, the sci-fi masterworks, actually took a little bit of an adjustment for me because those were thought experiments what they call thought experiments where they had a science fiction idea and they kind of just wrote about it and they tried to put a little bit of a story around it. But mostly it was about the idea, and so I had to get used to that and not worry about plot and character so much. But yeah, what you do, though it's now, it's a piece of cake.
Speaker 1:Well for me with House of Leeds. It definitely took me a while to adjust.
Speaker 2:What is House of Leeds?
Speaker 1:It's hard to explain. It's a one of a kind. Have you read House of Leeds, Parmeita?
Speaker 3:I have read the first touch of Leeds.
Speaker 1:So it's basically there's two different stories going on. But as you read the story there's footnotes in the book as you read it. So you'll be reading about something and then it'll reference an article. So you look at the footnotes and you go to the last. I think almost the last half of the book is the index. So you can go and you read the article that it's referencing in the back of the book. Then you read that for 50 pages and you go back to the stories and the story jumps back and forth. So there's letters that are in the index. There's like coded messages in the letters. There's different timelines, there's the way that they use text, they have pages that the text is printed in different designs and it's a very unique book. But it's weird because you can sit down for an hour or for two hours and read and you could read, let's say, 70 pages, but in your page count you only read 20. So it's really strange.
Speaker 1:Some people even read the story. They don't use the footnotes or the additional information. It's kind of sad that people do that. But I think it's one of those love or hate type of books and some people think it's pretentious and some people think it's brilliant. So it's one of those. It's one of those. Yeah, you seem to get everyone lands a month's out. It's a very strong opinions on that one. But I think it's great, I think it's. It must have taken years to put that thing together. I think it's really cool. But again, not everyone likes it. But, yeah, it did take me a while to. I didn't even know how to read it. It's really weird. It's strange. I had to like look up and find help on how to read, even how to read it, because it's very different. It's very unique.
Speaker 2:I know some people that can't eat, that just can't read comics. They just like they just can't do the words and how the war balloons go and stuff and they have a hard time with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of yeah, Of all the, of all the formists, to be intimidated to buy. It seems like a weird one to be intimidated to buy to me because it's like the easiest one to get into but you'll have to help with all the art, so it's, you know, fills in a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, I do have to go make some steak now.
Speaker 1:Oh no, all right, all right. Well cool, thanks for coming by, jerry.
Speaker 2:All right, thank you, I'll see you talk to you later. It's always a pleasure. Bye, parina.
Speaker 3:Bye, all right.
Speaker 1:So I just have thought I've been reading or trying to read. Did you read Truth of Crowns Prometha?
Speaker 3:I did, I did.
Speaker 1:So I did finish that one this month and it is lots and lots of tragedy in that one, lots of death.
Speaker 3:It is it is. I think the cascade at the end was level one up. I liked it, but I I mean I. I the author said that this is book one of a five book series and as I was getting to the end I was like, oh my God, I have to reread this thing before whenever I get to the finale. So I did read it, but I was not as anchored in it. There were some very good moments, but I was not as anchored in it as I was in, let's say, a game of thrones.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It had and it had it had a lot of switching of POVs and things like that. Yeah, I liked it, but wasn't a immediate new favorite is how I would say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did. That did cross my mind too, because it's a very thick book. So as I was getting towards the letter, the, you know, towards the end of thought, well, I'm going to have to reread this when this book too comes, because I won't remember it. But yeah, I did. It was a lot, a lot more death and tragedy than I was expecting it. I was expecting more of a traditional fantasy type of story, but it surprised me.
Speaker 3:No, I knew because Carl said his he loves George R R Martin and he loves Robin Hobb. He loves Robin Hobb more than George R R Martin. So I'm not no, no, I won't go that far, but I mean Robin Hobb is like another go for him. I do agree that the intensity, like as you said, that at the end that cascade was a lot. It was a lot. The final third I would maybe not the final third final fourth or fifth sorry, final quarter or final 20% was the escalated quite, quite a bit.
Speaker 3:That was done. That was done very well. I just wish there was a little bit less number of POVs. It was it got a bit too diffused at time for me, but that could just be a very personal reader thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did have. I think this is something that I struggle with with fantasy in general, but just keeping up with all the different POVs and because it's hard to keep track of them sometimes there's too many.
Speaker 3:That's why I say a song of Eisenhower is about my limit, and that's only, I think, because he gradually increases it. Book one is more or less Starks versus Lannisters, and then he introduces the factions. So you are anchored in those two and then you have to add three more. Okay, it's easier to remember. I think that technique is very, very clever, whereas anything which introduces everything together and like huh, who are you all? Do I care?
Speaker 1:Who's going to survive?
Speaker 3:True or even worse. I mean, this happened to me with Malhaas and somebody died. I'm like, okay, who are you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's. I think it's harder to get invested in them when there's so many of them.
Speaker 3:For me personally. Yes, that is an issue.
Speaker 1:And I did. We did finish the Warrior Prophet and we're reading a thousand full thought now, and a thousand full thought. I'm not. There was a lot in the Warrior Prophet that I feel like I messed or I didn't catch the first time. I don't know if you would catch it if you had any of the series already, but the thousand full thought is a lot more plot than I remember it being.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's traditional battle, battle, battle, battle, those sort of I did think, with the caveat that I did not enjoy the series very much. I did think the Warrior Prophet was the best book.
Speaker 1:That seems to be the consensus. In that trilogy and I think most people think that's the best one.
Speaker 3:A thousand full thought without spoiling anything. The ending is brilliant, but the whole book is considering the expectations that Bakker himself sets with the second installment. It's a bit Bakker. Why are you doing this? Why are you giving us so much military fantasy when you have shown that you can do good theming? What Warrior Prophet does that? Interplay impactful scenes along with? Also, yes, there is action, but it's a good blend of everything and he switches between the locations, the POVs. I think he also gives dialogue to people very cleverly and thousand full thought. It was a lot more, as you said, for me. I wouldn't even say plot, because for me it was action, action and usually action.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm not a big fan, sure enough. A big fan of action. Sure enough. But speaking of, what I am a fan of is annihilation. We read that for the speculative speculations.
Speaker 3:All time favorite.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 3:All time favorite. It's brilliant and it just works as a standalone. I brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I love Vandermeer's writing. One thing is I mean people say they compare him to Lovecraft. For me it's just its own thing and it's very, very beautiful. It just worked for me. And first person is so difficult to do first person and unnamed. I thought I was very clever, very, very clever. Yes, yeah, Very big fan Did you read the but I'm so happy I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I read it. I wanted to say the consensus seems to be that most people liked it. The people who are doing, we all loved it yeah. Yay, that's so. That's delightful. I did read the whole trilogy.
Speaker 1:We read the first five chapters and I think it's I don't want to say it's as good as the first one, but it's really good.
Speaker 3:Hmm, the second book is nothing like the first. And then the third book is the, the. What I'll say is because you have to experience the book yourself. The titles are very meaningful of the books, and then relations, then authority, and then acceptance. And I am just so hyped because he's writing a fourth installment, absolution, and he's turned it into his editor, so we should be getting it. Hmm, if it's bad, I'm going to cry. I will literally cry, because this is my favorite science fiction series.
Speaker 1:It's really really good. I'm surprised how good it is and I'm also bummed about the movie because it did not. It was not a good.
Speaker 3:The last part, yeah, the last part, up to even I would say even up to where the physicist was this quiet lady where she something, she takes a particular that up to, that was also okay, but once they go into a particular structure, and then the ending. This is my friend who recommended this book to me, the public book one. This is her favorite trilogy and she's so mad about that movie. She was like Parvita, you're going to hate it. I'm like I want to watch it and then it was very mad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really disappointing, really disappointing.
Speaker 3:It is as an adaptation, is disabored as a movie. I think it's okay, it's not bad, but if you know the book then it's like come on really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as a missed opportunity. I wish they would have made it into the first movie, the first book, and then gone from there, but I think it'd be hard to adapt. It'd be hard to adapt that.
Speaker 3:Second one would be boring. I think it could be.
Speaker 1:It may work more as like a TV series, to have it less, like three seasons of it or four seasons. Now I think a TV series might work.
Speaker 2:True.
Speaker 1:True, it's too good we did finish your stories of your life and others, and I despise that book.
Speaker 3:I read that. Oh my God, oh my God. I agree with again my friend. She warned me not to read it. She was like arrival is good, but if you didn't like the end of arrival that is told at the beginning of the story, the story of your life, the book, the story, and she's like you're going to hate it even more. It's like, oh dear me, I do not like this. But also, fundamentally, I mean one thing which I don't want to be too gatekeeper about this did it feel to you at times like this is not really science fiction?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was yeah. Did anybody like it, or did anybody?
Speaker 1:I think Varsha vived with it the most because she's like a numbers person, like a math and numbers and a lot of that just went over my head, Just wasn't interesting. Yeah, it just yeah, I just it's. And a lot of the stories are 60, 70 pages when they could have been 20.
Speaker 3:12.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was going to.
Speaker 3:You're kinder than we are, like 12.
Speaker 1:It was really frustrating. Let's see. Yeah, thankfully we finished it, because that was rough. I read the Fate Out by Breu Baker and Sean Phillips Really great graphic novel, really great book. I loved it. And so now we're also reading the big book of science fiction. It's a big actually. Vandemire is the.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's just Vandemire.
Speaker 1:Beautiful book too. It's giant.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Speaker 1:Giant book, beautiful, really really good present, really nice presentation. Not easy to carry, though, and of course we're. I think we're four volumes away from finishing Berserk, or catching up.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow. So, yeah, catching up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, let's keep it me busy. As far as TV, we did finish Yellowstone. Have you seen Yellowstone? Probably haven't. No, I have not. It was better than I expected. I didn't really expect much, but it was. I think it's. It's explores the, the kind of Progress and and technology and the. There's a. In a nutshell, it's a. It's about a family who owns a large, a large Portion of land in Montana and they have, they live the Kind of the cowboy lifestyle and they have livestock and and there's people trying to buy the land or trying to come and deer it. It's them trying to fight, trying to keep their, their family history and their, their land, and they're also kind of. You know, they're not, and not always very nice people either. So it's a, it's a, it's a nice. I feel like you're. I will point you, give up and given a well. Point to you. You know, keep fighting and keep your, your legacy, I guess.
Speaker 2:So it's yeah it was more than I.
Speaker 1:More thought provoking than I, than I thought. And there's a character that is a one of my favorite characters, beth, she's a great character. This really brutal and yeah, and also there's a prequel called 1883, I believe it's 1883 or 1882. And kind of tells the story of how the family ended up there and that's. I haven't finished the, but it's pretty brutal, pretty. It's very Unforgiving of that and kind of presents that time period in the West, in the old West. We also watched a blue-eye samurai for the podcast.
Speaker 1:Okay, have you seen that one?
Speaker 3:No, no, I TV shows. I'm very, very, very behind. I have seen nothing other than Black Sins, one episode, but I've got Severance and Dark Online.
Speaker 1:Dark is really really good, really really good Another end. Really really good. It's one of my favorites, and, of course, true detective, but that does a whole nother topic Pretty disappointing.
Speaker 3:Oh, really, I thought there were a lot of like. It was like the mystery box model, things continuously building up, building up, building up. Was the resolution not set?
Speaker 1:No, I think, from what I understand, is that the the author writer wrote a movie called Night Country and she brought it to HBO and HBO said we want to turn this into a true detective TV series. So they brought in elements from the previous seasons to make it the callbacks to make it work. When it it's an anthology series, you don't you don't really get callbacks from the seasons. It's they're their own, they're their own thing. So it just didn't really work. A lot of missed opportunities.
Speaker 3:Also movie padding out. I mean, what happened, like, let's say, what happened to the Hobbit trilogy? They have a teeny tiny book and they tried to make three movies. Similarly, if somebody has a movie script, two hours, two and a half, let's say three, three hours is a very long movie. Even then that's three episodes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I guess what it's eight or six. I don't know how many is it six, but still that's double, so that's a lot of a lot, yeah, and you can get looking back.
Speaker 1:You can see where they added in extra things, that they added an extra plot elements and different, different. You could tell where they just threw it in, just to you know, not organically, just just didn't just didn't work.
Speaker 3:So will you be continuing with the next season or?
Speaker 1:I guess I will, just because I'm hoping it'll get better. What I'm hoping is that she'll write it from the, from the expectation of a Venus series and maybe not a two hour movie that gets stretched into six. So maybe that'll be, maybe it'll it'll benefit from that, I'm hoping.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I hope so too. It's always. I mean, I'm a bit of a completionist in the sense If I get three or four seasons into a show, then usually I finish it out, but so I hope it's good for everyone.
Speaker 1:Fingers crossed, fingers crossed yeah. Good for you.
Speaker 3:What else do you have? So you're doing the southern reach, the other two, and then Wars of Light and Shadow and the Prince of Nothing. Is there anything else? You have sort of long-term?
Speaker 1:projects. I think we're going to after we finish the southern reach. I think we're going to start the children of time. I think that's a plan, but it's all of Pnevarsha.
Speaker 3:She's the boss, so we'll see.
Speaker 1:But I think that's all the series we have planned.
Speaker 3:Nice. I want to do something for just get into more horror, but also more interesting type of horror. I was looking into weird fiction and those kind of things. Michael Sisko seems interesting but I don't understand his books. Is this normal?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's kind of normal. He's brilliant though.
Speaker 3:He is brilliant. It's like China. Miebel is another person. I mean, michael Sisko is probably also an academic or he teaches something, but anyway you can make out that he's very smart, but I don't understand what he's trying to say in his book. I read only one. I read Divinity Student, but he has one called Unlanguage which I really want to try. He's not really horror-rizzy.
Speaker 1:More weird fiction. There's a lot of weird fiction out there. I'm trying to think of who else is just some really weird fiction out there.
Speaker 3:But yeah, he's different, he's brilliant, though One author my friends really like but I could not get into is well, I read one story and one novel, stephen Graham Jones, and the novel that I read was the Only Good Indian and my friends loved it and in the beginning I was really liking it, but then I got bored.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not a fan of slashers and that the end just didn't make sense to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the end is what killed it, like a particular game Onwards.
Speaker 1:It felt like a different book. It just felt like it just didn't fit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, but his short story was brilliant. It was one involving a rabbit yes. It's a brilliant.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:I was. Really I had high expectations. Another author I'm curious about what I've been told not to touch because, again, I read a short story by this author, Jack Ketchum. So the short story I read was the Box. The novel I'm interested in is the Girl Next Door, but I looked it up and I've been told not to touch it. I think I should follow this advice.
Speaker 1:Well, I won't touch that one because it's based on I guess it's on true events.
Speaker 3:It's based on real life, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so here it's awful.
Speaker 3:And yeah, yeah, I read Peter Straub Goh Story very good book Really liked. I mean, these are some authors that I've been trying. I tried Thomas Legoti. He has like this penguin classic on follow, Not for me.
Speaker 1:Not for me.
Speaker 3:Too weird. So is there someone you would recommend is short stories or something? Which you think I might vibe with?
Speaker 1:Maybe Daniel Barnett the Nightmareland Chronicles, that might work for you.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, I can always give it a try because again, horror. I'm very much a clean slate. I don't know much. Yeah, he's always happy to try.
Speaker 1:The short story collections. There's a lot of short story collections out there. Let me think of yeah, I look up.
Speaker 3:I've been looking up some stuff as well, but also, if you want to read the Mariana and Enriquez one, let me know. I mean, you know, we can just have a thread in the forum and chat about it.
Speaker 1:You have to have it pulled up here.
Speaker 3:Voices we lost in the fire. Both are very good, but I think voices we lost in the fire is spectacular. Spectacular Because, as I said, she pulls in a lot of imagery and you just know there's real life events behind it. It's clever, but I don't know. It may click, it may not click, because some people seem to hate it. Like horror seems to have this vibe. I see a lot of books like Michael Cisco. It's like he's this guy is like genius, and then some people are like what the hell is this?
Speaker 3:Throw this book? It's very, very full, kind of like what you said with House of Lean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of sub genres in horror that have their own like subsection of fans, like Splatterpunk or Extreme or weird.
Speaker 3:Can't stand. I mean I won't be able to take it Weird I would be able to take, I think, psychological horror, atmospheric horror, all that I think I would be able to take. People thought that I would like break with pet cemetery but I was like, no, I really like this. Great. They're like wow, you. People thought I would break with the alien, one particular thing, and then I went she's not going to know and hereditary. My friend was scared. That's like. I loved it. It's that balance of is it psychiatric or is it supernatural.
Speaker 3:I really, really like when he did that because I was like this is psychiatric, this is psychiatric, this is psychiatric. I could rationalize it almost quite a bit. So it's a very good movie Did you like Midsummer?
Speaker 1:I did. There's a lot. There's a lot in that movie that you don't that you. There's a lot in it that I didn't notice the first time.
Speaker 3:A lot of no, that's true for hereditary as well, because I watched it a second time. My mom was watching and I was watching from behind. Oh, my God, there is the scene with two different people. I think you also pointed it out, you all pointed out to me. It's a particular apparition which is present. It's not an apparition, actually, but okay. When a particular boy wakes up towards the end and my God, that was brilliant.
Speaker 3:That was such a brilliant scene and there's so much detail that went into how he constructed the movie In Midsummer. I just know I think it was the violence that really got me. There's a particular scene with the mash it. Where sort of that was? That was very tough. I really liked the decision to alternate between the mash it, what was happening with the mash it and our protagonist face. Very, very brilliant and I see what he was going for, but it was just too much for me. But towards the end I was like, yeah, but very good, I would say. I mean, in terms of direction, it's very good, but tell me an example of something that you don't notice, unless you remember there was one scene towards the beginning that our main character is sitting in a I think they.
Speaker 1:they're sitting in a field and in the background there's another character that's already been dead. That is in the background.
Speaker 3:I don't know. Oh my God, I didn't notice that. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Somebody told me or there was a lot of. There's a lot of discussion over how the character ended up or the death of her parents. I guess we can minor spoilers, but her parents die and there's a you can kind of was that planned to the? Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 3:I did wonder that. I did wonder that a lot. I couldn't rationalize it, but I think there was something with the artwork on some of the which. It was a bit I don't know, and it's also a sort of a maybe a fall continuation of hereditary, where we don't know what are the machinic and machinations that are going on in the background. And so when that, when that happened, initially I was like, oh my God. Then I was like, is this step one in a horribly convoluted recruitment? So it was, it was, it was he messes with your mind. The third one I'm, I'm, I'm. His third film which I have been, which I have on my list, is Bo is afraid. I don't know, I'm so scared.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to see it because the actor is my favorite actor, one of my favorite actors.
Speaker 1:I loved him oh he's great, and Joker, yeah, I love Joker.
Speaker 3:Brilliant.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 3:Me too, me too.
Speaker 1:I'm worried about the second one, but I love Joker.
Speaker 3:I'm also terrified. I'm also terrified. I almost don't want to work it because I'm like, what if they mess it up? What if they mess it up? We didn't need it?
Speaker 1:No, we didn't need it. It should have just been its own thing. We didn't need it.
Speaker 3:Anyway, how is? Bo is afraid.
Speaker 1:I haven't seen it yet. I need, I need to watch it.
Speaker 3:Oh, I have to.
Speaker 1:I have to. I have to throw that one out because it's yeah, I've been wanting to see it. I'm almost afraid to watch it because I don't want it to be bad.
Speaker 3:I understand. I understand when somebody has been uh, they've just had a home run. You don't want to be disappointed. I have that very much, very, very much. I'm like, just please, please, please, please. When it's bad, it's just the saddest thing available. I do want to watch the Lighthouse, which is, I believe, by the director of the witch. The witch was, oh my God, but it was a very good. I have to. It's not my thing, but separately speaking, it's the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't seen the Lighthouse, but I own it, so I think we're discussing it in a few weeks.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you're discussing it. I know I'll try to join if I don't get the photo.
Speaker 1:That'd be a good one.
Speaker 3:But I've been told I can handle stuff now because you know, apparently hereditary means I can handle stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's I love hereditary, so good.
Speaker 3:It's a very good movie.
Speaker 1:Really, really good. It's definitely sets the bar high for other movies.
Speaker 3:Definitely, I agree, and also performance wise she didn't get an award. I was so surprised who did better than her in her do? It's brilliant. I mean for the dinner scene. I know the dinner scene and a particular, the many, many. There's a scene where she's in a particular meeting and just micro expression. Everybody did brilliantly but she is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's really, really good. I'm surprised she didn't get even nominated. I don't think she even was nominated. I don't think so.
Speaker 3:Seriously so there were five people who acted better than her. In hereditary Interesting, I'm going to watch these films and rant about it. On the fourth new project.
Speaker 1:I don't. Oh well, she, oh yeah, she didn't get, she didn't get nominated an Oscar nomination for it.
Speaker 3:Well, I found my new project. I'm going to watch the five movies that did get nominated for Best Actress and then rant about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the yeah. There's a lot of articles about why she deserved a nomination but didn't get one.
Speaker 3:Wow, Okay, Please don't tell me it's related to genre stuff, that you know it's a horror film and so it might be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's too bad.
Speaker 3:Really, Really, it's such a good, such a good horror. I mean this. This is what horror should be.
Speaker 1:It's absolutely masterful she did receive a critics choice award for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's like consolation price. She should get the main price in my opinion. I would have to see what the other nominees are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have a hard time believing that they're as good. And some other nominations for other smaller awards, but yeah, the major one. She didn't get one, which is criminal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, honestly yeah, but thanks for coming by and hanging out.
Speaker 1:It's always a pleasure. So anyone wanting to connect contact you, work me work and they find you.
Speaker 3:The best place to find me is on the page chewing forum. I post there quite a bit and I also log in quite a bit, so I can be found there very easily you can find me there too and hope everyone has a great weekend and we'll talk to everyone soon. Bye.