Navigating Belief and Power in R. Scott Bakker's The Thousandfold Thought Chapters 10 -14

Together, we untangle the rich tapestry of consciousness, the soul, and the manipulative brilliance of the series' protagonist, Kellhus. Can we discern truth from deception in a world where belief is both a weapon and a weakness? Our discussions cut to the heart of the series' most enigmatic themes, from the nature of damnation and salvation to the political chess game of religions and empires. 

As we navigate the labyrinthine plot and its deeply complex characters, we uncover the poignant emotional narratives that give this fantasy epic its raw power. Witness the tragic tale of Z and Akka's confrontation with the harrowing reality of his journey, revealing the human struggle for understanding amidst a sea of turmoil and deception. We also dissect the genetic mysteries and apocalyptic prophecies that loom over Bakker's world, inviting you to ponder the true nature of destiny and the potential of a universal consciousness speaking through the No-God.

Seamlessly blending the mythical with the cerebral, we journey to the heart of the Thousandfold Thought, questioning the authenticity of the divine and the prospect of a revelation that could shatter the very foundations of reality. Theologians and thrill-seekers alike will find themselves ensnared by the enigmas of belief and power. Join us for an exploration that transcends mere fiction, where the quest for knowledge could either be the key to salvation or the path to damnation.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Hello everyone, welcome to another discussion of the Thousandfold Thought, which is the third book in the Prince of Nothing trilogy by R Scott Baker. We have been reading this series about a hundred pages every week. Today's discussion is for chapters 10 through 14. We start in Seraj and end in Shimei, and with me I have the usual group of friends. Steve, would you like to start us off with introductions?

Speaker 2 0:29

Sure, I'm Steve and this is my second time reading the series and lots to discuss. I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 3 0:36

Yes, and I'm Dan. I've read this series many times and I agree Lots to discuss this one and the next episode probably too.

Speaker 1 0:49

And Karl.

Speaker 4 0:51

Yeah, I'm Karl, first time reader of this and author as well, and I can't believe we're in the home stretch for this trilogy.

Speaker 5 1:04

Yes, and I'm Mike. I'm a first time reader of the series and fellow page chewer.

Speaker 1 1:11

Nice, I like that T-shirts. We're getting lots of T-shirts ideas this week, so I was joking on the forum earlier that we should just spend three hours talking about the epigraphs and nothing else and then like, if we have time, we'll spend time on the rest. The first epigraph I want to start to solve, for that, if that's okay with everyone. Yeah, I think that's immensely interesting. I had to read it several times and the first time I wrote down a joke that the thesis seems to be I think. Therefore, I am not, but then what comes later with, I think Karl is explaining something.

Speaker 3 1:57

Do you want to read the epigraph for us? Yeah, let's read it, I'll have it in front of him right now.

Speaker 1 2:02

Okay, yeah, should I read the whole thing? It's a pretty big.

Speaker 4 2:06

Go for it. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 2:09

Souls can no more see the origins of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self differentiate. So it is always, in a peculiar sense, the same time and they think, the same place where they think and the same individual who does the thinking, Like tipping a spiral on its side until only a circle can be seen. The passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always adjourns here and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, if the soul could apprehend itself the way it apprehended the world, if it could apprehend its origins, it would see that there is no now, there is no here and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul.

Speaker 1 3:04

So I think this is sort of the precursor to what Keles tells. Is it a Kamiyan that all souls are sort of all bodies are breaches into which the universal soul projects itself, and that there is one soul and nobody exists individually? That's sort of an illusion. My husband studies a lot of Buddhist philosophy and this sounds a lot of things he sometimes a lot like things he sometimes shares with me. So, yeah, this was interesting. Do you believe what?

Speaker 3 3:45

Keles is saying I mean.

Speaker 1 3:50

So I don't like how he puts this knowledge to use. But so here's the thing I've claimed several times to be an atheist, and I am, but in the sense of like I hate organized religion and whatever comes with it. But I guess, in terms of like understanding consciousness, like I'm very open to theories of reincarnation, to theories like from the Buddhist philosophy and so on, like simply because there's no proof to the contrary and I don't think we understand it enough to say, nah, it's all in the brain. So yeah, I'm open. I don't actively believe it, but I'm open to the idea that this is true.

Speaker 3 4:33

Yeah, but in the book universe.

Speaker 1 4:36

In the book universe.

Speaker 3 4:38

Keles is saying something he knows. He's just saying random philosophical thing to try to manipulate K.

Speaker 1 4:49

I mean, it sort of tracks with the philosophy of the Dunyan, doesn't it so if Keles believes in the Dunyan, believes the Dunyan teaching, so follows them to the letter, then I feel like it tracks. But also I could be projecting what I know of the Buddhist philosophy in the real world.

Speaker 4 5:12

What is it? I'm sorry. What is it that Keles says Like? Is it different than the epigraph?

Speaker 1 5:18

It's related but different. Yeah, it says something of the effect that souls, the bodies, are breaches for the universe of soul. I mean, try and find it.

Speaker 3 5:29

Yeah, there's only one soul like. God and that manifests itself through all the different people pretty much. But we're all part of the same God, the same entity. Just sort of aspects or like. Yeah, like you said, like breaches.

Speaker 4 5:43

So is this remind me the context for this, because I'm hazy on this discussion. Is this him preaching as a prophet, or is this something he's like legitimately, like trying to like impart as sort of a Dunyan value, because that to me doesn't sound like a Dunyan thing.

Speaker 3 6:03

It's him talking to a Chameon to sort of, I guess, to make him think that he's saved. I guess, like they're all the same, he's not like damned, or it's in that conversation.

Speaker 4 6:17

Yeah.

Speaker 3 6:17

Right, well, I mean he's being manipulated. But we've also seen in the past that he does use the truth, just says it in slightly different ways. Right, just like when he says I need to go see my father. It's like yeah.

Speaker 1 6:34

But you're also implying that your father has got okay. Yeah, I think you mentioned the part that I did object to that. I don't necessarily believe that he believes that the universal soul is God. Like I don't think that he believes in a God, or that if he does believe in a God like I don't think that this is his version of the God. But again, like how to tell, with the series, how much I'm projecting my own thoughts onto the characters, and maybe it's designed to be that way, but yeah but the universal soul.

Speaker 4 7:05

but maybe Well, I don't think you're projecting here at all. I mean Keles, I feel like, has explicitly told. I mean, maybe I'm misremembering, it's certainly possible. But if Keles hasn't explicitly said he doesn't believe in a God, that certainly would be in line with the Dunyan philosophy, where they seem to be like ultra rationalists and, you know, despite the fact that there is some kind of, you could say, mumbo jumbo, that's maybe a derogatory way to refer to some of how they I only mean that in terms of like, what they accomplish is so far beyond what is actually, like, humanly possible that you know that's all I mean by that. You know, keles is basically a super human, right? He, I mean he's a philosophical thought experiment and well executed in that. I don't mean that as a criticism at all.

Speaker 4 8:04

But you know, with the Dunyan philosophy, right, that there I don't see them and therefore I don't see Keles as believing in a, like a higher power. To me they, I mean maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but I get the sense that they, I mean he didn't even believe magic was real before he entered the world, right? So I mean, I don't know, that's just my reading of it, but again, I may be misremembering something, and certainly Keles's point of view, his personal opinions have been obscured. Like it wasn't even clear that he actually was told to go kill Moingus until like fairly late I feel like in the story. Like I remember he told Nair that that wasn't like we didn't get his thought like oh, I'm going to go kill him. So that was really mysterious for us for a long time.

Speaker 3 8:54

So his opinions on God, like who knows, yeah, but even if it's just talking about it as soft as soul, there's still something which is false within, I would say metaphysics. And from what we've heard, like his beliefs and everything about Dunye, I don't think we've heard anything about that. Their philosophy has anything on metaphysics, Right, it's all like psychology, it's all like internal, it's all. It could all be very like you know, rational and materialistic. I guess you know like you were saying, but they're my people's aspects. But we've just never heard him think of all those things like he believes in the Dunyean philosophy.

Speaker 4 9:37

And I feel like if he does believe in God, he doesn't necessarily believe that God is like actively engaging with people. You know that, like you know sort of the deist view of things I feel like would map on to my understanding of how he views the world, based on our limited understanding of the Dunyean and their whole deal. But I don't know, and just to be clear in case anyone doesn't know, the deist idea is that God exists but God basically like created the universe and then peaceed out and like does not engage with humanity or with life in general.

Speaker 1 10:18

So the I mean, I guess the other way, which for me doesn't track that he actually believes in a God of the kind that the men of the task worship. Right, like that's who he's saying. He's convincing a commune you're not damned because you know you are closer to God than the rest of them are. That's kind of what he's implying in that conversation. Also, like, if everybody is sort of breach of the primary soul, what reason does that soul have to send like sun proxies and like give people punishments and stuff and like test their faith, whatever it is they believe? He is very much encouraging all of those beliefs. He's not telling them anything that's contrary to their religion, as far as we know, except for you know, like the sorcerers are not damned anymore. But but then he's still finding reasoning from the philosophy of that religion, like from the base of the philosophy of the religion, to do his convincing, like to even the subversions that he's doing. So I don't think for that reason, I don't think he actually believes this or that.

Speaker 1 11:37

Maybe the universal soul bit and that I think. I kind of think the big meditation sequence we saw was it in the first book, is it concludes in their, in a view of their metaphysics. Does it not like how people think, like he sees how the soul moves and the things that move it, and this seems like an extension that you can only be in that state where nothing moves you if you realize that you're connected to said universal soul? Like it feels like a good extension of that philosophy. Don't know if he actually believes it, though.

Speaker 4 12:18

Do we know who Memgoa is and what the celestial aphorisms like? What, that, what that is as a book? That's the epigraph, the first.

Speaker 5 12:28

I looked it up. He's a zeyumi. Say it. It's not the right word. He's not a prophet, he's a zeyumi Like a saint. Dang it.

Speaker 4 12:44

Who are the zeyuni? Again, that sounds familiar but I can't remember. I think you said it Dan.

Speaker 5 12:49

They're the African equivalent.

Speaker 4 12:53

Okay.

Speaker 3 12:53

Yeah, I think like if you open sort of the equivalent or yeah, like African, yeah, the guy is far to the left as a as in the West he's not he's not a sage and philosopher known in the three C's for his celestial aphorisms.

Speaker 4 13:14

Okay, his to me is what he's saying there. I mean, maybe I'm misreading it, but is? I mean, obviously it concludes with the idea that there isn't a soul and it's basically saying the soul is an illusion and that whatever creates the illusion of the soul is like what is actually there? Right, the soul is like the circle, you know, it's how we, like humans, perceive their reality. But it's not actually what the reality is that there's something comes before that, right, like the, you know, you could just say it's like, in the most literal sense, I guess, the brain, or you know the darkness that comes before in a philosophical sense, I, you know, I think there's a lot of ways to define it. But I would be really curious to hear the dunyain talk about all of this stuff, because I'm sure they do have a very distinct maybe. Maybe they would disagree about. You know different things, I don't know. You know, when they reach their level.

Speaker 1 14:08

What do they do all day you?

Speaker 4 14:10

know? Do they argue themselves? Do they just like torture people for experiments, you know, for fun, like what's their day to day? Maybe?

Speaker 3 14:22

just meditation.

Speaker 4 14:23

Just meditating.

Speaker 3 14:24

Since they're kind of like monks, I guess yeah the worst monks ever in the world, cruel monks.

Speaker 2 14:32

The logos has no beginning or no end, that's what they say all day long.

Speaker 1 14:39

So that okay. So yeah, that's the other possibility. I guess to your question, dan, that we know that he's been studying the philosophies. Akamyan has the indian gnernius like sort of acquiring them and drawing conclusions at them, from them at a startling rate. So maybe, maybe he saw this and he's like, oh, how can I use it to manipulate Akamyan and the rest of the people? So that's possible too.

Speaker 5 15:05

So my reading on that section was I, or I thought that's what I thought I thought he was going to say that this is how we get to the thousandth thought, which I'm still not totally clear on. But this, this sense of we are all one consciousness, you know, we are, we're all, god, you're. The same person to me was leading up to that, and then he was I thought that was interesting where he was saying this is why it's talking about, I guess, site, and why those who see the, who are able to see the few, are able to grasp a little bit of this concept. And then it explained I didn't quite understand it so, but then something about how the kisharam. They kind of explained how they are able to. This is why they are blind, because there's there's so much of what they're able to perceive that if their their blindness kind of limits, it kind of helps them in some way with their, maybe with their sorcery. Yeah, that's like that to be very esoteric.

Speaker 4 16:32

They're definitely. Yeah, it all of that was very esoteric. It's an interesting conversation, particularly, I think, because of the personal aspect of it. You know, I mean the fact that it came in is grappling with so much and also in the context of you know how his story develops. You know in the in the rest of this section, that he certainly he has been, and his relationship with Kelis has been challenged, and Kelis is not yet aware of that fact.

Speaker 3 17:03

Yeah, what I did find interesting I've been finding quite fun in this really sort of is identifying all the like, the vaguely, not vaguely, it's like a lot of the stuff is very sort of Christian theology, but slightly changed but still super recognizable, like when he says if he says something along the line, so like don't judge us by our, but by our temptations, and it's like that's not. You know that's not the correct line, but it could be like it feels like it could come from the Bible or something like that.

Speaker 4 17:45

Right, yeah, it's almost the Lord's Prayer, right, it's yeah, it's like slightly, everything is like slightly different.

Speaker 3 17:51

Yeah, yeah but it just feels, you know, it gives that vibe, without being the same, like it's different enough. But you know, I find it quite interesting how he just changes his slightly but preserves the whole feeling.

Speaker 1 18:08

Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 4 18:10

I was just gonna say the spring word off what Mike was saying earlier. Are we supposed to understand what the thousandfold thought is at this point? Because, like I, was unclear, I wasn't sure if I missed something too. Okay, okay, that's good.

Speaker 5 18:25

No, you're fine, I only say that because for the other two books the title was mentioned earlier on. So I guess he's not following Baker's not following that trend here. But I was assuming we're leading, we're. I think we get hints at it. Right, I feel like we're leading up to it and I think it has something to do with like total domination and thought control, like able like he's Keles is kind of able to possess people. Now it seems am I right? Like he's done things like didn't he do like a Darth Vader trick on a Commian the last time and then he did something with asmanet here which I don't think he's like.

Speaker 4 19:15

I don't think he's like literally doing psychic stuff. I think it's just. It's the same old things as it's always been, in terms of just.

Speaker 3 19:24

He has a preter natural ability to be able to use magic right right now he can yeah, okay, like his halos and stuff like that right except we don't.

Speaker 4 19:38

I mean, is that like seemingly that's real because even a Kameon sees it, but like what's up with that? We?

Speaker 3 19:45

still. I mean it's just a magic thing. But he made up right, it could be, I guess, is he just.

Speaker 4 19:51

I just feel like a Kameon would recognize it if that was like a spell, you know very strange yes yeah, can you do magic without the mock, like kind of like the Cezarum?

Speaker 1 20:03

did he figure that out?

Speaker 4 20:04

no, well, he has remarked now, all right he's learning the nonsense right yeah, he's doing the mandate stuff, yeah, which which you know, are we supposed to understand it as, like, he learned it all so quickly because he understood their philosophies like so quickly that it was the idea is that if you, if you get the like, the magic itself is philosophy and you like essentially manipulate the universe through these like philosophies and they're like spoken word, that sort of thing which even explained that, like the way they say. It is just like, I think, in that conversation with the Kameon right or one of the other ones where they talk about the idea that, like it's not even really the words themselves, it's just like the like kind of the idea, like that you're creating this power, yeah, and that the words are sort of a vector for that power.

Speaker 3 20:54

I think that's why that's also what a Kameon says when he was constructing him at the beginning. It's like it requires like clear intent and purpose and like logic and stuff like that, and I think that's why he's so good, because that's literally what he's made for right.

Speaker 2 21:09

Just, really just really quickly because I found it page 266. Those two, two quick lines. May your bread silence our daily hunger. And on 267, judges not according to our trespasses, but according to our temptations yes, very, very Bible like yeah very close it's line for line, like, with slight modifications.

Speaker 3 21:38

The our father, who I didn't heaven right Lord's prayer yeah, yeah, but I think the concept is different.

Speaker 4 21:46

It is like if you actually think about it's like, okay, it sounds the same, it gives you a feeling, but what it's actually saying is slightly different yeah, the in the Lord's where it's forgive us our temptation, like it's like it is fundamentally different, it's like taking it's like an intentional kind of perversion of some of the idea.

Speaker 4 22:04

Yeah, which makes me like curious too because, like, like I think you know we've talked about how, you know, in the real world certainly, as in the books, face can be manipulated and you know, I mean these are based on the Crusades, right, which are very real holy wars that happened and but like, when you look at like sort of come up philosophies, like at least a lot of the ideas that, like you know, jesus as a figure proposed, you know, whatever you know you want to talk about historically, like turn the other cheek, like a lot of the things is like you know, one of his titles is like the Prince of Peace, which, of course, you have a lot of Christian sex that are actually warmongering and like seem to like be very different. Is that Ineira Sejin is his deal too, or are we supposed to interpret it as like this, like different, slightly like twisted version of that? That's unclear to me at this point, because we keep getting these prayers that are like slightly perverted versions, you know, yeah, and I don't know if that's like.

Speaker 3 23:08

I don't think we've seen any part of like the compassion part of Christianity. We've seen like, yeah, that's only like the militant you know, they faith war, that sort of stuff, right right, I don't know. I'm trying to think what we've heard.

Speaker 4 23:27

Oh, sejinus, but because, was he he wasn't. Do we know? Was he like a warrior or was he like? Was he you know he wasn't a carpenter? I don't think no.

Speaker 1 23:44

I'm trying to think that that would be two on the nose, even for bacon maybe I mean I don't know.

Speaker 4 23:49

I'm sorry, I think he was a plumber a plumber there you go, yeah, no, but like, I think for the context, right, like a plumber or like something like that. Obviously, you know we're being facetious here, right, but I think there is something to the idea of like. The idea is you know this common person, right, this person who is like a movie, is the prophet, versus like, a lot of the times it is like a prince or a king, you know, like, talk about like, for example, was like, I think a prince before he like gave everything away. And you know Muhammad, you know, was a merchant, I know first before and then he became a warlord, like what's that context? I think like shapes things, right. So that's what I'm curious about. Henry Sejinus is like, what do we know about him? You know what is his background?

Speculating on Character Identities and Motives

Speaker 1 24:47

I don't actually know that the glossary doesn't tell us much, says he's the latter prophet and spiritual founder of the thousand temples, who claim to be the pure incarnation of absolute spirit. So that bit, maybe it's not union philosophy, maybe it's just the tusk philosophy, the very proportion of god. That's what the absolute spirit is sent to amend the teachings of the tusk, after his death and supposed ascension to the nail of heaven. His disciples recounted his life and teachings in the tractate. Yeah, that's all stuff we already knew, and except for the nail of heaven thing and again, I think this is something that maybe we briefly discussed before too.

Speaker 4 25:33

But you're just like circling back to the thousand fold thought. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have this faith, that is, the thousand temples and about these thousand gods that are actually one god, and then you have this whatever philosophical idea that maybe is a real power, I don't know. That's called the thousand fold thought, like it does seem like I'm with Mike that it seems like to be some sort of like. My instinct or it's not just instinct, the kind of intuition, is that it is some kind of like control thing. You know that that there's this idea that I don't know it's got to be something related to that right like and that their faith and like thousand fold. I don't know, I'm just speculating, theorizing.

Speaker 1 26:16

I guess we're going to find out next week, yeah do you think that Moengus has taken over the phanim faith, like, like, um, what's his name? Keles? Keles has taken over the the task, like that. Basically, he's their religious leader. Now, moengus, I'm like nodding his head.

Speaker 4 26:41

I mean he's had. He's had 30 years, right like, unless he's like way lammer than Keles but that's the part that that I I'm really struggling with.

Speaker 5 26:50

So the wheat isn't it. It's I forget who's saying it, but I think we've heard it a few times now where it's like he's had 30 years to and can you imagine how powerful he's going to be? Well, these guys are getting their butts kicked. So, like, I'm totally like I'm very curious how this is gonna all come to pass here in the last 100 pages, because either either Moengus is, he's a kishkisharum, or he or he's some, or he's somebody we've already met, like I'm. You know what I mean. Like right, why? Why, in what side is he on? Kind of these are the kind of questions that are. I was a little, frankly, I was a little bit disappointed. I thought we'd get a little bit more.

Speaker 4 27:42

I agree, you know, I, I feel like I'm being I I'm. Unfortunately, the metaphor that comes to mind is edged like we're like, we keep creeping up and it's not quite getting there. Like I, I got Nathanette. What's going on with he? Shows up. He's like, by the way, we have these skin spies that we know about, and he was like oh so you knew about the skin spies. What's going on with you?

Speaker 5 28:08

I only got like two pages of Nathanette, so I know I was so I felt so teased I couldn't believe it um.

Speaker 4 28:16

But I guess you know, these final 100 pages, lots gonna happen did?

Speaker 1 28:22

did the scene with Nathanette. How do I ask this? The um does it make you think? Did it make you think that it's definitely not moeing us, or did it give you reason to think more?

Speaker 4 28:42

I felt even more because I was like like this is weird, right like what. He clearly something's like.

Speaker 4 28:48

We're not just getting teased with him for no reason, but at the same time it doesn't seem to make sense because everyone seems to be convinced he's in, she may. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's the author like playing with us, right, maybe that's the bait and switch is like you're told that the entire time, but at the same time, the way it's presented, baker has to know the readers are thinking it's weird. This may have been that guy. He came out of nowhere and he has all of these like abilities. I've seen the line up with the duny aint stuff.

Speaker 3 29:13

I don't know and I don't think Ellis would not know, would not realize, if moeing us was Nathanette he's pretty smart, he.

Speaker 4 29:22

I mean, he hasn't met him, though, like I don't know, yeah, but I don't know he seems to do us a lot, even from not meeting people. I don't know what he thinks of Nathanette have you figured out? What he thinks of Nathanette. Have we been given an opinion about Nathanette? I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 1 29:39

I mean, he did kind of only just know, it seems like figure out that all the decisions that he thought he was making had been laid out for him by moeing us. That's the conclusion he comes to, right so sort of right.

Speaker 3 29:55

Well, he says it's conditioned ground right. He doesn't say that it's conditioned like against him or for him, like just says it's conditioned, but like this is favorable to what his plans are right, or we don't know what he's trying to do really like. Why is he trying to bring the holy war to Shime? Because that's what the consult wants, right. So why is he doing what they want?

Speaker 1 30:22

and and apparently he wants him to take over the war against the consul from the mandate or he doesn't want the mandate to fight them. One of those it wants to be on the side of the consul. No, that seems weird, but he's definitely doesn't want that.

Speaker 4 30:36

I mean, I don't know, maybe unless he were kept at such a distance with him that like it's hard to tell sometimes, like especially in this book, I feel like we haven't gotten very many POVs I Did we get, I feel like we've maybe had a couple POVs of his in this book but, like, especially in this book, he's been kept at a distance, yeah like the, maybe there's only been the one that we just read right doing his confrontation.

Speaker 3 31:02

It's only one thing.

Speaker 5 31:05

We have the letter.

Speaker 1 31:06

I Think yeah, the letter from I.

Speaker 5 31:15

Thought there was a letter from him, but there was.

Speaker 1 31:21

Who's the him we are talking about?

Speaker 4 31:26

Okay.

Speaker 3 31:28

Yeah.

Speaker 4 31:33

Nathan definitely kept at a distance.

Speaker 2 31:34

I mean, we have we haven't had a single.

Speaker 4 31:38

Yeah, we have that letter he wrote so he, I don't know.

Speaker 1 31:43

He seems less to me like that. He is mowing us right now, but it could also be paid in switch because one he's a. He's got a black beard. Apparently. Kelly says blonde, but okay, maybe he died it or whatever. Or the mother was blonde. Does it work like that? Is that the dominant gene?

Speaker 4 32:01

and then how does it work?

Speaker 5 32:08

I think they said he's beyond.

Speaker 4 32:10

But that's. That's the big thing, right is? He's too young? It seems like. It seems like he's like I Don't know how old. Actually that's a little unclear, but it doesn't seem like he says oldest moongus is. Hmm, and he has the eyes, doesn't he? He is like bright blue eyes, which is one of the defining norcerae features.

Speaker 1 32:28

And he's wearing a core I, which I mean, if callus has concluded correctly, moengus is a sorcerer. Now Corai effect, season 2, right.

Speaker 4 32:44

No.

Speaker 3 32:46

They do, they do they do. A pretty sure they do.

Speaker 4 32:49

So it's just that they can't see the mark because they have like a different philosophical something or another with the magic, yeah.

Speaker 3 32:59

Awesome, wrong Steve. Right, baby, do affect me. It's just our into right now. Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 33:05

Okay, it's strongly hinted.

Speaker 3 33:08

But I think it's happening in a battle that they used. They maybe not oh.

Speaker 4 33:15

I mean that would make sense, because otherwise I feel like they would just be sweeping, you know, because that that's the whole, like on a, on a meta level, the core I exist to like balance things right, otherwise the sorcerers would be like unstoppable. So I feel like that's they must right, they must also yeah.

Speaker 1 33:35

They did. They did use it in one of the battles in the holy war against the cesarean Okay, not not the one in which the party Raja died, the one just before that, I think, the one that's all born led, if I remember correctly.

Speaker 3 33:50

Okay.

Speaker 1 33:52

Was it that one? But there was. There was one in which they sent them to the center and then they heard this is I can't remember, but I seem to recall that that did happen.

Speaker 3 34:05

Yeah, I think, I think you're right, yeah.

Speaker 1 34:09

Okay, yeah. So yeah, I made the net knows about the console doll along. What are we supposed to make of that?

Speaker 4 34:20

or at least for a while. I mean, I don't know, it's unclear to me how long he's known, but clearly it hasn't been like a super short period, like it wasn't like he.

Speaker 1 34:30

He found the skin spies, yeah and you know, so far callous has been the only one who's able to identify them. So he must be some sort of like. He must have similar skills.

Speaker 4 34:43

So he's definitely like he's doing yane or he, like, has been trained by moengas, you know, yeah, I Don't know, yeah, mephane is also the one that called the holy war, right, yes, yes, what why?

Speaker 1 34:57

is he doing? I Mean, I mean.

Speaker 4 35:02

I'm increasingly convinced that this is all like moengas's plan. I don't understand what plan is, but they're clearly seems like. I Mean, if we, if we think about again what Keles has done in like a year and the plans he's laid, you think of 30 plus years and it's like, okay, clearly moengas has been, he's had a lot of time to come up with his grand strategy. Now, what that grand strategy is, I don't. I don't understand.

Speaker 1 35:32

Just like we don't know what the benny jazzy did want, we don't know when moengas Exactly it's.

Speaker 4 35:39

It's all a mystery.

Speaker 1 35:43

Hmm.

Speaker 4 35:45

I mean we have to find out, like one way or another. Even I mean I don't know why there's four more books, so maybe I Don't know.

Speaker 3 35:53

Do we know what the console wants? They've been. We've had a bit of a discussion with Keles, right? Or was that confrontation where they said some things?

Speaker 4 36:01

They definitely have given us kind of their POV and like what their intentions are, which, as far as I remember, is like classic evil, like we want to like ruin everything and maybe kill everyone. You know it's like creating vote devoid, I don't know.

Speaker 2 36:17

I just used to make lovers, though.

Speaker 1 36:21

Do they just want to be reunited with their bodies? It seems that there echoes of some distant bodies somewhere.

Speaker 1 36:29

Oh, before we get into that, sorry the implication, he said that the Nathanette Tells who what's his name, not Sarah, that this, the console that he found, was special because he has a soul and yeah others apparently don't, and I think it was in this section also, the conversation, I forget between whom Keles and Esminette, I think, and maybe a Kami, and was there too that that these creatures don't feel very much, they only, or they don't have a lot of depth, they just have base reactions. But that is enough to fool most people into thinking that the humans are them. So they have this moment of Sadness where they're like oh, that's him, that's enough for most humans. So one, are they implying that sorcerers have souls and the others don't? Or or is the necessity of a soul, or I?

Untangling Damnation, Magic, and Salvation

Speaker 3 37:35

Think so because I think I Also had trouble with that. But I think they. What I'm thinking is that To do sorceries to be damned, so if you to be damned you have to have a soul. So you can't do sorcery without having a soul because you have nothing to be damned. I guess because it I don't know if there was a way to do sorcery without soul, then maybe we would possibly create objects or something that I.

Speaker 4 38:01

I follow what you're saying. It's that's kind of circular logic, but, like what we've been told, I think it also makes sense. My question is how do they even know they have souls? I mean I guess they do magic, like is that? It is that is that a Thinking I like yeah you, just if you can do magic. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how that fits in with the dunyain's philosophy to. That is unclear to me at this point.

Speaker 2 38:29

Yeah, yeah, it's on 265 Made that it says it was. It's an accident and anomaly that thankfully the architects have been unable to recreate A skin spy with the ability to work sorcery. This year over a thousand temples said grimacing with exertion, a skin spy with the soul. So that kind of confirms what I think be, but Speculation is here, that because they have a soul they are able to.

Speaker 1 39:02

Do magic, yeah be sourced.

Speaker 2 39:05

Have worked sorcery.

Speaker 3 39:06

Yeah, but I guess we don't know if that's what they think or if that's True. Right, right.

Speaker 2 39:13

Because we really don't know what damn nation is mean right? What does it mean?

Speaker 1 39:18

and Eric pointed out in the comments and I thought it was a great point that that we also don't know what salvation means. That's true, yeah.

Speaker 3 39:28

There's a lot of talk about damnation, yeah, and, but no talk about, you know, what are they? What's paid salvation of a soul? What are they trying to gain here, right?

Speaker 1 39:38

Hmm.

Speaker 3 39:38

Is it paradise? Is it I?

Speaker 4 39:41

I'm gonna want to throw this out here. This is something we talked about doing before. Could we do Maybe a Livestream or something talking about this trilogy, because I would love to engage to with whoever is listening, you know If there are people, because clearly there are some comments, right, and I'm curious what other people you know their thoughts to yeah, yeah, good to that yeah random. Random interjection Back back to source reinsoles yes.

Speaker 2 40:13

We should also make a list of topics for that.

Speaker 3 40:16

Yes, yeah, and you can also just collect, like, Like, questions and thoughts from our people before. I have a long list, absolutely. Or you can also just go through the what's it called the free seas Forums and stuff like that, and so much discussion so or yeah, we haven't figured out if there's heaven or not in their beliefs.

Speaker 4 40:45

I mean, clearly there's something, but yeah, they.

Speaker 1 40:50

There is a nail of heaven that apparently sasin is ascended to.

Speaker 4 40:54

How do they?

Speaker 1 40:56

is that where they go when they die? If, is that, what salvation is? You go to the nail of heaven, which I thought doesn't move across the sky.

Speaker 3 41:03

Oh, yeah, that's the star right.

Speaker 4 41:06

Yeah.

Speaker 3 41:07

How do how?

Speaker 4 41:07

are like how they defined what they believe happens in afterlife. I feel like that is a a missing piece here. I that is pretty significant Because that you mean.

Speaker 5 41:20

You mean the in reethi right, because there's yes religions here, yeah.

Speaker 4 41:24

Yes, well, I mean, yeah, right, like any one of them. What do they believe happens? You know, we know, damn nation right for sorcerers and Harlets and all the people they view, as you know other. But like what? What's the heaven equivalent? What do they believe? You know, yeah.

Speaker 1 41:42

And it's a very interesting way that the word is used, because in the real world, each religion has its concept of punishment and I think it's largely damnation, is largely a Christian concept, right, is it also Islamic? But yeah, but but that class of religions that all originated from each other, that means something specific, right of per religion, and but even in each religion there are definitions. I think, if I'm not wrong, and hope what it means, how you will suffer, etc. And like you could throw in Hinduism and other multi God religions, that is running the concept of punishment. But that's what that is. It's punishment slash eternal damnation. What was my point? Yeah, so the it's to the used in Without qualification, right, it's not. You're damned per the task or the Cesarim are apparently just as damned as the Mandate. None of them are, are accepted or follow any religion, yet they are damned.

Speaker 3 42:59

Well, but this is our own follow the fan in religion.

Speaker 1 43:03

Hmm, they do right, put them on its cool man, the scholars bias. They don't follow.

Speaker 3 43:11

I Mean it's implied that they believe debate in.

Speaker 4 43:18

The they're, they're definitely is sort of the implication that like they don't follow it if if they are in rithi they don't follow it. To the same. Like I remember in this section, alizaris Thinking's not like I'm scarlet, it was basically like I forget exactly what his thought process was, what the implication was other than that like they clearly thought that they were different. Maybe it's just because they're damned, you know.

Speaker 3 43:49

But, they follow it as stringently they're not you're like well, I've already done so, fuck everything else my soul. How much worse? Can it connect? Can it get like?

Speaker 4 43:59

you, yeah, you think about, uh, the mandate, right, and and Akamion specifically, and he is a big skeptic and I don't think that's just his character, although it is his character certainly but like he's, like the schoolmen we know of are not zealots, yeah, except I mean that maybe the Fanim or the C? C Charon, although there isn't like they're fighting this holy war. I don't think because it's a holy war, it's because it lines up with their political ambitions, like the scarlet spires.

Speaker 4 44:31

that's really clear is everything they're doing is for political ambitions, because they want to destroy the C Charon, and specifically for revenge for killing their leader. Yeah, but go ahead.

Speaker 3 44:45

I think that's just how them are like within the Fanim religion, if I remember correctly. They're not like in their eyes. I don't think they're damned, I think I don't remember why. Maybe it's like oh, we don't have a mark, that's why we're not damned, or something but could be, I don't remember, but I feel like it's, like it's integrated within the religion, if I remember correctly. I don't remember who was the yeah, like the founder of the Fanim religion, fane. Yeah, was he Mrs.

Speaker 4 45:18

Charon? No that's.

Speaker 3 45:20

I don't feel like you've had that implied, and it's definitely not what you said because there was something like there was someone that came out of a desert bearing the water of whatever it's the founder of it, yeah which was like the founder of a Czarim, but I don't remember who was the same person, yeah.

Speaker 1 45:42

Oh interesting. Maybe Kela stole from that playbook then. Yeah the integration of the Czarim into the religion happened in the last 30 years. Is that what Moengas was up to with them? But maybe not, like you're probably right that it goes back much farther. No, what I meant, sorry, carl, what I meant was that the yeah that Kela is is integrating the sorcerers into the religion. Right they are no longer damned, according to him.

Speaker 4 46:15

So I, you know now that we're talking about. I hadn't fully processed this, but I think that's just like a smart political decision on his part, like you think about it. Like the Fanim have their own sorcerers, so like the Enrithi should probably have their own sorcerers to counter. I mean, some of them do. I guess you know the, the Nancy, the sake. Yeah, yeah, again unclear exactly if they're technically the the sake or if they're Enrithi too or not, but certainly they fall within that culture. And, yeah, you would think the rest of the Enrithi should have their own sorcery equivalent just to counteract.

Speaker 3 47:02

Like politically, yeah so, yeah, you're right. But something I've also wondered like reading these books it's like for how much everything is central about religion. We know so little about religion and so much about what we've heard about religion is like it's not like, oh, you did that thing or you did that other thing. It's more like you are that thing, so you're damned. You know right which is. But yeah, it's like I always wonder oh, what exactly do they believe in? Yeah, I'll think, with really being so I cheated a little bit.

Speaker 5 47:40

In the glossary it says that. I mean I think somebody said I'm allowed to to look in there yeah according to the phantom religious tradition, the prophet feign became the first of the Sasharum after he went blind in the desert, so I think you nailed it, dan yeah, but this is.

Speaker 5 48:05

I think this is really interesting. So they claim this is the feigns, claim that the true power of the solitary god cannot be exercised so long as one sees the profane world and this is why initiates voluntary blind themselves at a certain point in their study. It goes I won't read the rest of it.

Speaker 3 48:29

Yeah, yeah, we've seen that all the Sasharum are all, yeah, they're all blind. Right now we don't know if it's just a ritual or if there's an actual purpose to it, right.

Speaker 2 48:44

Something that didn't strike me until I think Daniel or Katerina mentioned this on the first read is that we don't really get a phantom point of view.

Speaker 4 48:53

Yeah, I'm missing it, but I think I'm convinced that it's just because we have to keep the longest thing secret. Yeah, I wish we had it, but we're we like, very briefly, like we, we get the first Padi Raja, like when he's about to get killed. I remember we have that one scene where he's like he burns a letter, but yeah, I wish we could.

Speaker 3 49:19

What point of view would you like to see from the phantom side?

Speaker 4 49:25

The Padi Raja would be cool. What's the guy who met with the now dead Ember Zarius, who did the face thing like projecting yeah, I forget who that I mean. That guy seemed pretty cool, I don't know.

Speaker 3 49:44

Like a Sasharum perspective.

Speaker 4 49:46

Yeah, but again I feel like that it probably is a decent chance. I mean, the reason we're not seeing it, other than that it would like make these books twice as long, is you know. I think it probably would give away the the game to some degree at least.

Speaker 5 50:03

I think I kind of miss that as well, because I feel like when, when, the, when, the, when Baker is describing what's happening to the, the, the, the Keaneen I don't care as much or I, you know, it's just kind of feels kind of like blah, but I, I know it's, it's awful what they're, you know what's happening to them getting slaughtered, right. But since we don't have the perspective, we don't really you know what I mean. Like I feel like, yeah, I also feel like it's missing and so like there's a lot of well, we talked about this before, but there's just a few passages where I'm just like I don't know enough about these people to understand, like what you're describing here. So, but yeah, I don't want the books necessarily to be longer. However, they get shorter. This one is is shorter, but, yeah, most likely there is a big reveal coming to explain. That's one of the things. We should start writing these down we need to have a big discussion.

Speaker 4 51:10

That's one of the things that maybe will come up this is something I'm sure we will get an answer to, but something that occurred to me as we were talking about this. If Moingis is one of the C Charm, he's got to be blind, right so he can't be made the net unless he's not actually a part of their organization. I mean, because he does magic, he like we know he does it, so theoretically he's got to be one of them, right so, and we know he has his little cult within them, so he had to have blinded himself maybe he manipulated them and convinced them like, oh, I'm the first Czar, and that doesn't need to blind himself, or something like.

Speaker 4 51:48

That's fair. I guess I forget. Have his cult members he sent. They've been blind too, haven't they? Yeah, I guess maybe they were there already, so I guess that doesn't mean anything.

Speaker 5 51:59

I don't know what about, but I think this is one of the last chapters. There's like a, there's like a blind beggar that meets Melis. He's like I'm gonna tell you something that's gonna be your doom and then kill us like immediately murderism yeah, that's definitely just one of the cult members, right like that's his dad sent him and he's like I was wondering I don't know.

Speaker 4 52:26

Okay, I mean, I guess we haven't. Have we seen Kallus tell us one way or another that that definitely was? My thought is, like we see it, like, oh, it's another one of these guys, like you know, I feel like he was even blind, was any? Yeah?

Speaker 3 52:39

doesn't Kallus think about? Like he says oh, that's what he said, like that sentence or something. Like your father is for you know only one, yeah, only one tree, yeah, but we, we also are meant to think like because in the next chapter, after that happens, they say something like the console say something like oh, he's taking the bait or something. So we're also meant to think that he's also part, you know.

Speaker 1 53:08

I thought the bait was that um, um what was the bait he took? The skin spy, and so, like he took the skin spy into his home, and so they. They then went to free. Said skin spy invaded as Menend tried to kill a Kamin.

Speaker 1 53:29

I thought I thought that was the bait, that that they planted this thing that the Scarlet Spire's got and oh yeah, and and the thing things to itself that it's meant to be a sacrifice hmm, oh yeah, because, because they need a body inside so that the synthese can then fly in.

Speaker 3 53:49

Yeah, can we talk about that, like you?

Speaker 4 53:51

know, because I totally I I'm gonna be honest, I like forgot about that whole thing with the console. Were they like possessed as Menend? For a while I just thought it was like a skin spy, but no, she was like it was her possessed. How did what is that? What's going on there? That?

Speaker 3 54:06

that was crazy how creepy was that it's super creepy the skin spy was the other one that went to a Kamin. But you I think it also meant, before that happens, to think that Esminid was the skin spy, because, right or yeah, I don't know, it's very but whole sequence is very disgusting, perverse that's very.

Speaker 4 54:33

She was violated again and in a different way. It's horrible. A poor, poor woman yeah.

Speaker 3 54:41

I thought that and then Kallus just hits her right because it was. But is her right? And like she said, she, she believes that what she said is like her saying just like when the cats of compulsion make you say things so you don't, they literally make you.

Speaker 1 54:59

It's like you're saying it horrible, so yeah speaking of the epigraph from the second chapter, I think what do you guys make of this as the idea that volition itself is one of the movers of the soul? The fact that those compelled unerringly think themselves free shows that volition is one more thing moved in the soul and not the mover we take it to be.

Speaker 3 55:37

I mean, it makes sense does it.

Speaker 4 55:42

Yeah, but you're the illusion of free will.

Speaker 1 55:47

Basically, yeah, talking about right isn't that what that's saying, that free wills an illusion, is that there was some study. I forget the detail. I kind of wish I could look it up again, but there was some study that showed that neurons fire in the brain several time units before you actually move the hand. So you think that you decided to move the hand, but actually the the firing happened much before. I think they say that the neurons fire decision then hand move, something like that. That that was the experiment. I wonder if this is based on that or a similar concept, whatever is written here which I that also is.

Speaker 4 56:26

Like you know that that opens the philosophical door. Right asks the question of like. Well, how do you even define free will, right? You know we've talked before about like, the question of time I think it was in this on one of the earlier books and like you know whether like it's deterministic or not and the future is already set. Yeah, it was because callus was wondering about that right and the question of free will and like. Even if the future is set? Like are you making the decision? Like how do you define choice?

Speaker 4 56:57

you know, like if it's an illusion. Even if it's an illusion, like if it's sufficiently real, I don't know.

Speaker 3 57:05

I mean it's, it's just something to think about, I guess, I mean that's a real question in nor in like a real world theology that's what I mean yeah, yeah, it's like God is supposed to see everything in the future. So how can there be free will if he already knows what's gonna happen? Right, right.

Speaker 1 57:23

So yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I mean, I don't think we'd get an answer, but I I think, yeah, I love that we can discuss things on two levels with this book, like one or like the real world implication, like what do you think of this as an absolute concept and in terms of how it applies to the book? I think the scene that we mentioned we saw that significantly right after as minute or sequence, rather not just the scene after. The thing leaves as minute. She remembers everything she did and that was set to her during and she she has trouble believing that the desire wasn't her own and that it was induced, but she's like whatever was induced was already there. So that's interesting, that that she's sort of holding on to this notion that she is the originator of her behavior right, even though she was compelled into it yeah, right, again it's, it's a, it's a moral philosophical quandary.

Speaker 4 58:33

Right is like if you felt in that moment like that is the thing you wanted to do, are you to blame, right? I mean that's the question with, like capital punishment or anything today, right, you know you're like people change, right, if you think in that moment, oh, I want to kill this person, but then, like, you live with that regret. You know how do you define action. You know if every, if you think about how every decision in a life, every outs external factor influences people, like how do you assign blame? It's tough. I mean, yeah, I certainly don't feel like guys, manette should blame herself for that because she got mind raped, which you know as, even as an unfortunate turn of phrase, is like what happened, like, yeah, again keeps getting violated.

The Possession and Manipulation of Characters

Speaker 3 59:18

It's horrible yeah, I could also all be like just mechanical. There's no like uh, you know theological or metaphysical thing, it's all mechanical. It's just like the synthies just prods things in your brain that release chemicals that make you behave, and that's what they do, right yeah, maybe was.

Speaker 4 59:40

Was the synthies not actively possessing her? Because that that's, that's what, how I interpreted it, but maybe I misread that. I was gonna know how he is possessing her.

Speaker 3 59:50

Yeah, he is possessing her, but we don't know how right is it? A magical thing? Do they know magic?

Speaker 4 59:57

well, they, they definitely hot bodies, and I mean that's unclear if that's magic or not too, but we know that he I forget what his name is, but the little crow dude had a different body and he thinks this new crow body is lame, he's like this is so, you know, it does not become me, uh. But yeah, I don't know, I don't know how that works.

Speaker 3 1:00:19

That is certainly mysterious at this point yeah, I'm trying to think have they ever used? Well, no, because we know that there's a skin by the spider could use magic, right, so we? Yes, do you know? But that was mandate magic. Do they have their own magic? Their own like school?

Speaker 1 1:00:40

well, they have old science or whatever old. What technique that is some form of magic, or maybe it's just really really advanced science they did bring? They are the creatures that brought the arc of space into the world, right?

Speaker 3 1:00:58

Techno sounds like technology a lot.

Speaker 4 1:01:02

Right now it also begs the question you know, you have that famous phrase that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So like how do you even define where the limit's here?

Speaker 3 1:01:20

Actually, steve and Varsha, do you remember our discussion last week of the sci-fi podcast, where I said the exact same thing in the opposite way? It's like, oh, this is sci-fi, but what if it's magic? It could be magic, yeah, it could be. It could be In love sometimes.

Speaker 1 1:01:35

Yeah, mike, we haven't heard from you for a while. What are?

Speaker 3 1:01:38

your continuing thoughts.

Speaker 5 1:01:48

I had to step away for a second there, but I thought that in I was just going back to chapter 14 and this is like it says that Esmenet was possessed by the Incoroi, and then I had written that or I thought that it was the cancer of compulsion that were used on her. So I don't, but then I was looking I didn't see. So maybe I've made that up or I don't know, but I had a similar question, like I found that to be. There's several things that were that went on with Esmenet, because I also, we also learned that you know, keles used her again and for a while there I was thinking, oh, he was the one that possessed her or something. So I was, I admit to being a little confused maybe, but that at the beginning, the beginning of chapter 14, clarified it for me.

Speaker 5 1:02:54

But there was clearly, you know, keles kind of threw her under the bus, for lack of a better term, but you know, I think I think that I came in, noticed that as well, and what I was trying to find were that there was just so much again like a lot really.

Speaker 5 1:03:18

There was a lot of kind of different scenes happening with her and I just feel I just agree with you like I feel it's you know, these the two women characters like yeah, it was just, I don't know, they just get violated left and right here. And I think that I wanted to say the last time we met sorry I'm rambling now, but the last time we met I was thinking like towards the end, when Sarwe was like getting killed and then again and I was like, okay, you know, maybe Baker really doesn't like when I don't know, I was just like I just felt bad. I just felt bad for that character because, as we said before, she didn't get that well developed. But am I right that Keles kind of used her like, kind of like he manipulated her pretty badly here?

Speaker 4 1:04:23

I think it was in chapter 12 or yeah, I mean he's continuing to write like that. She certainly not. I mean, everyone gets manipulated by Keles Well sorry, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 5 1:04:37

I mean she has kind of also got got some benefits right.

Speaker 4 1:04:42

She's kind of risen up, but like if I was trying to find it though, you mean, like, did he use like the cancer compulsion on her Right, right, Something along those lines? If he did that, I missed that completely. Okay, I just remember him just talking to her and doing his usual Dunyane thing, but yeah, but sometimes he's happy yeah.

Speaker 5 1:05:10

Because I unfortunately don't have the page number, but it's in chapter 12. I wrote down. You know how did Keles use Esminet here? Did he want her to be taken over by the consult? It was right after he talked with a Kamiyan.

Speaker 1 1:05:26

So he laid out the trap right Like so, I think Keles, the concert won put out a sacrifice to trap Keles. I guess they just wanted to find out who the Dunyane are from him directly. I guess that was their goal. They didn't want to kill him yet and he apparently saw that coming and he set traps for them, like what he did with a Kamiyan. But he didn't do anything to protect Esminet. Maybe he even meant for her to be used in the manner that she was used by the consult. I don't know how we force all of that, that's kind of lost on me. But I think he let Esminet be taken by them Right, Kind of like he let Surveys die, that's what I think that was my conclusion.

Speaker 1 1:06:19

Well he didn't.

Speaker 4 1:06:20

I mean he let Surveys die. He didn't necessarily want it, though, like he grieved her, which I feel like we had- yeah, he let them, it's not.

Speaker 1 1:06:30

Maybe it's not clear to me that he tried hard enough to make it go the other way. If this happens, he gets the outcome he wants, so he's okay with it.

Speaker 3 1:06:40

Right, I don't think he had any power in what happened and the whole sequence was serving him being, I guess, circumfixed, right. That was like his like you know, everything was going against him, sort of. He didn't have any power to manipulate the things, right.

Speaker 4 1:06:59

I mean, I think it's a little column, a little column B, at least in my reading which is like he set the events in motion, so he knew he was going to face something like this and even he knew he was going to, you know, quote unquote die right, like he was creating this messiah myth, right, and like every messiah has to have a death before resurrection. You know, sort of like it's thought process. You know that's the story, right. And did he say that?

Speaker 3 1:07:27

I don't remember.

Speaker 2 1:07:29

He was. I think it was the first time that he seemed he was afraid. It seemed like he was uncertain towards the. But before that, those events, he seemed like he. Things were almost like. There's a first thing you saw some cracks in his confidence.

Speaker 3 1:07:44

Right, If I remember correctly, like yeah, he said for events in motion, but it didn't happen the way he thought it would happen. Like he said, does say something also before in the previous book, at the beginning or something like sometime he had to just roll the dice and hope that it happened the way he wanted it Right, just like that first battle with the like that first battle. He didn't think that Salbon would win, right? Oh yeah, that's right, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:08:16

And so I think that what actually happened when he got circumfixed was like yeah, that was not what he expected to happen. He took advantage of it after it happened, but there's all stuff we don't know about. What happened then, I guess, and it's. It is also confusing the way it's written.

Speaker 2 1:08:32

If I remember correctly, it's Do a couple of things, yeah.

Speaker 4 1:08:40

I circling back, though pun now intended after I said that I I I do think he didn't intend for a survey to die, like I think he actively did not want that to happen and that it did upset him. Because the whole point is he's like the thing that makes me feel that more than anything is that he was moved by it, Like that's what broke him, however briefly, you know, that's that's what made him feel again he actually grieved her, which I still don't fully know how to process that.

Speaker 1 1:09:14

But he also got angry at something, as Minit said, during her possession. Was it at the thought of losing her or there was some emotion there, somewhere, right.

Speaker 3 1:09:29

I don't remember exactly what it was, but I hate to say it but.

Speaker 5 1:09:34

I don't. I don't even believe that he actually cared, but because of all the conditioning that these that they've done to these, that they've had in the as, as you know, growing up in the Dunyan world and it's sometimes, we get glimpses as who he really is. But there's a lot of time spent with him seeming like this real profit and loving people and all of that, but I don't think they are capable of love.

Speaker 1 1:10:07

I, I don't sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 4 1:10:09

I was just going to say. I mean, when we're in his POV personally, he like it scared him, that he felt things. I mean I I think it's an interesting philosophical question is like how do you, you know, even define love and like, is he capable of love? Like I, you know?

Speaker 4 1:10:26

I don't know, I don't think he thinks he is capable, for sure, right, but he, he, he legitimately grieved her, like like he was upset when she died and it and the fact that he was upset shocked him and, if anything, probably upset him just as much, if not more, than you know, than her death, because it meant that you know he succumbs. Right, he was an animal like other people, but I, you know, I certainly don't think that suddenly redeems him. He still is manipulating these people, you know these women. He treats them terribly, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:11:10

I don't think he knew that he would possess husband. I think he just knew that something was going to happen, just like he knew they were going to try to kill a cameo, but he didn't know how that would happen. Otherwise, right, yeah, I don't think, because then he also gets like during his confrontation he also gets like charmed. I guess, right, he's not like we see that he's doing things against his own will, because then he's like oh, I see, they will see he's trying to do some magic on me or something, because he puts on his words and then it doesn't work anymore.

Speaker 3 1:11:42

But I don't think there was his plan, right.

Speaker 4 1:11:45

The lust stuff works on him, like he, you know. They're having physical reactions that were out of his control. How does that work? We don't know. We do not know Other other. Yeah, I think these consult people can make you really horny. Yeah, that's all that is clear. Yeah, that's their thing. It's horny magic.

Speaker 3 1:12:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:12:07

I didn't think of it until you brought it up, Dan, but the he put up words that you have to know what you're wanting against to do that, how do you?

Speaker 4 1:12:17

know I do. Yeah, Do you? I don't know that you, I think you're just like no more magic. I mean, I guess you're right. I mean like, I mean, I don't know how words work, I guess.

Speaker 3 1:12:28

Yeah, that's a thing.

Speaker 1 1:12:31

I mean, can you just say, like what you have to know how you're being influenced, to say stop influencing me this way, Like at least that's what logic says.

Speaker 4 1:12:42

But I mean, maybe it's as simple as like no more magic, you know, like it's just a war against magic because it's clearly not a natural thing. Right, Like whatever they're, or I don't know, maybe it's a pheromone thing.

Speaker 1 1:12:53

But is it magic though, Is it?

Speaker 4 1:12:55

right, is it?

Speaker 1 1:12:55

the same yeah.

Speaker 3 1:12:57

Well, it got blocked by the words after right, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:13:04

He did get blocked by words, so yeah, yeah. Did he just try a genetic word and it worked.

Speaker 4 1:13:11

And yeah, there's no way. There's no way, right, Like it has to be a magical thing.

Speaker 3 1:13:15

But maybe you can do words against physical things, Like you do a word against a rock coming towards you. Maybe Right. So, maybe just the word against I don't know air or something I don't know how it works.

Speaker 4 1:13:26

It's like literal physical barrier. He's like cutting. Yeah, I guess that's possible.

Speaker 3 1:13:31

Don't you remember, if we've seen other words being used, how they've been used?

Speaker 4 1:13:37

Because I think we've only seen you against magic, right? Yeah, yes, exactly, I came in and used some words, but it was in like a sorceress.

Speaker 3 1:13:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:13:46

All the mandate schoolmen had words when Maitrena had came down, except for Northira apparently. I don't know why he didn't have any.

Speaker 3 1:13:56

If he not.

Speaker 1 1:13:58

One of them didn't. I'm forgetting if it was Northira or the dude who turned out to be a consult. I think it was the head guys.

Speaker 3 1:14:06

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 1:14:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:14:09

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:14:13

Could I ask about something else? What did you all think about the scene where Zainimus dies? I thought that was sad. Well, yeah.

Speaker 5 1:14:32

It touched me, I should say. I thought that the part where he described how the lice jumped off of him and onto Kamiin was actually beautiful in a way. I thought people probably could be grossed out about it and then, like some of his passing words, where you try too hard at Benjuka, and I think that broke something in him because then shortly thereafter the Kamiin's kind of starts to really doubt Kellis and I thought he was like awakened and that's when he starts saying what are you? So that scene to me was really pivotal.

Discussion on Emotional Revelations and Loss

Speaker 4 1:15:20

Absolutely. Yeah, that was really interesting that it was this profound grief that allowed a Kamiin to see through Kellis. It's almost like I didn't think about this until just now, but like kind of sort of the flip side or similar to the way I feel, like that Kellis identifies the skin spies is he sees, oh, they're not quite human, right, they're not quite expressing correctly. And to me the way I read that scene with a Kamiin and Kellis is like he's grieving very openly and Kellis is pulling his Kellis bullshit and a Kamiin, finally, like he's like, oh, you're not really feeling things, You're false, you are bullshitting me, and you know it's interesting that he like finally, it's like it's this profound emotional thing that like lets him kind of notice what's off.

Speaker 4 1:16:15

Yeah, flip side of Kellis is like very like coldly rational. Oh, I noticed the muscle twitches are like not quite right on the skin spies, which again is like I that hadn't fully registered for me either. But it's an interesting parallel, right, You're talking about like these Dunyain who are human but are separate too in a sense because of the way that they like psychologically realize themselves and so the way that they act is like you know, they're hyper controlled, like the skin spies so that they function in this very coldly rational you know on like they're faking emotions. In the same way, the skin spies fake emotions.

Speaker 3 1:16:56

Probably Dunyain would be able to identify never do the aim, just like they can identify the skin spies.

Speaker 4 1:17:02

Well, I got to give Baker credit. These are these are. I suddenly have lots of thoughts now are locked to think about interesting parallels he.

Speaker 5 1:17:11

The other thing that I thought was interesting is he's, he's, he doesn't. It came in, doesn't attack Kellis for as minute. He says why didn't you heal him? You know we talked about that, like in book one, where we were like so he doesn't heal any, or he doesn't have the ability, or nobody seems to have the ability to heal people, but that's what I think. So Janus was able to do, if I remember reading that, maybe somewhere, but so that's, you know, like it's, that's. I found that interesting because I was just I was expecting him to be more Well, I think the depth of his friend really affected him.

Speaker 4 1:18:06

Like I said, yeah, yeah, that was great. That was really well done.

Speaker 3 1:18:12

And Zinnimus whole arc is profoundly tragic, like his whole story. Like he's, he's a pretty good, pretty good guy from when we beginning. He goes to help his friends right, which in a normal book would mean that I really say similar, and then they're both happy, or you know, they work together. But it's not like this useless sacrifice which, when destroys him, makes him angry at the person he's trying to. He tried to save delusional right. That whole scene where he's asking for the. You know that he gets like the eyes of the guy that tortured him right and he blames a came in it's. It's so like seeing someone from that high to that low right, and he did nothing wrong. He did all the right things right, but a person would be. He's one of the more decent people we've seen, right.

Speaker 4 1:19:13

What's interesting too, is it? You know, it all felt very like tragically pointless until, like it is this that lets a came in finally see through Kellis, right, it's like it's the losses in it, it's like these like dominoes fell. And finally, because in a miss got screwed so badly that, like he finally sees through the bullshit. And then like, I don't know, do you think he would have believed Nair's story if he hadn't just seen that Keles wasn't everything he thought he was?

Speaker 1 1:19:53

I mean he does doubt so given the reason to doubt as in not. He taught Prowess about this like concept of doubt and you have to that, basically not taking things at face value. So I feel like if he had reason to it would have. If not immediately, I think he would have seen evidence in this favor if he had.

Speaker 3 1:20:23

Yeah, but it is interesting what you said, carl, that this leads to. It came in being able to see, maybe like for a secular have doubt on about Keles. But it's like it's not like you would see normally. It's not like a willing sacrifice of someone that helps the protagonist to be able to overcome some problem or achieve what they need to achieve. It's like a sort of like a parasit. It's like it's taking advantage of something that happened right To someone else. It's not like a willing thing, right.

Speaker 4 1:21:03

I mean, I guess, yeah, it's not completely bleak, I guess is what I like.

Speaker 4 1:21:10

There is, I feel, like, an element which hadn't fully clicked for me and maybe, you know, maybe this is even a misreading of it, I don't know but like again, the fact that, like, like everything was pointless for him, like he's just like pointlessly trying to save a came in and then ending up blind and like everything is horrible and you know, then he's just bitter and almost crazy and he's an alcoholic, he dies, and but it is in that death and then in the pain that results that a came in, finally has this moment that he needs to have. That is a good thing, which is, you know, seeing through Kellis, right, and I guess, yeah, what I was saying is like I don't know if he would have necessarily so quickly or so fully believed Nair's story if he hadn't seen that, oh, kellis is not everything I thought he was before, like he, so like he hated Kellis but also was like, but Kellis is the guy, you know, the capital G guy, and now he's like, oh, maybe it's, you know, maybe he's not all of that.

Speaker 4 1:22:19

And then suddenly Nair shows up, of course at the perfect time, because you know he's in this story and, you know, tells him the truth.

Speaker 5 1:22:28

He shows up with his motley crew of Syruway as a consult and the other dude who's the other guy I don't know. But well, he really went off the deep end. But and yet I'm pulling for him. It's a weird way, so I know Like it's really interesting. Like like I'm, he's in league with the console now, right, like yet he's doing things that we kind of want him to do, you know or at least in my case.

Speaker 4 1:23:03

You know, I'm the same dude. I thought to you it's like he's with like the worst people, like somehow even worse than Kellis, but also, at the same time, I want them to like tear Kellis down a peg Like this is a good thing you know he's new BFFs.

Speaker 1 1:23:21

We also find out that what Kellis wants from Esmeralda is lots of Dunyan sons or children, maybe just children. I don't remember if he said sons or children, but that or is it he does cast some doubt on it.

Speaker 3 1:23:35

It's like, yeah, I want her for that, or do I sort of right?

Speaker 1 1:23:41

Yeah. Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean, do you think that's why it? Do you think he's rationalizing or do you think he started with that reason and now he's doubting it? Like which do you think it is?

Speaker 4 1:23:56

Yeah, I don't know, I know, I do think I'm increasingly because of the survey stuff. I think he is attached to her, so I think there may be as a level of self-rationalization, but at the same time I think he would throw her away without moments hesitation. So I don't know.

Speculation on Lineage and Genetics

Speaker 1 1:24:17

Yeah, I hate that. What happened to Esmeralda at the end of that? She's not angry at him, she's angry at herself. I mean, I hate that for her character. I don't mean story-diving-wise, but yeah. Yeah, the other thing for Adam, I hate it when you do. Yeah, the epigraph I think it was in the last chapter that we read for this discussion in which Akamyan says that he'd be summarily executed if he said something out loud. So has Kelis gone on to establish an authoritarian empire right now, like some in the future? At the point in which Akamyan wrote this, some say I learned dread knowledge that night. But of this, as with so many other matters, I cannot write for fear of summary execution.

Speaker 4 1:25:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:25:16

Who's?

Speaker 4 1:25:16

gonna execute. Definitely he's under watch, right Like there's some sort of police state thing going on there. I mean he's concerned for his life.

Speaker 1 1:25:24

Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:25:27

So something that just occurred to me while we're talking. So if there are any parallels between Kelis and Moengas, does Moengas have like a harem of women? Do we think Like what's going on there?

Speaker 1 1:25:44

He knew what they are. He made them at his Moengas' son.

Speaker 4 1:25:48

The key, the Ah, that could be. Maybe Would it be with like one of the? I mean, would it be with one of the Fani, like how would that work? But I wish we knew how old he was. Right, like that's. It makes it hard to like, I don't know. Does Kelis have siblings? Do we know? Has he? He hasn't thought about like turning back in the city. Right, he's an only child, At least as of like in 30 years. You don't know anything about it For 30 plus years, his upbringing.

Speaker 5 1:26:24

you know, I would assume he might, because if he's descended of this important lineage, right it's pretty risky to just have one.

Speaker 3 1:26:35

Well, maybe he did have other ones that they were not up to the Dunyean level, that's true.

Speaker 4 1:26:43

They got to Dunyean level. Yeah, the Dunyean don't care if you're an honest hearing board, that is. I mean seemingly they have. They have no care about your bloodline, they only care about do you perform as they?

Speaker 5 1:26:58

want you to perform. It's very interesting because Esmenet's child is going to be like half half I wonder if if, if the child is, because the child's going to be half Dunyean or whatever, so not, not of this lineage and not of this conditioned, you know, artificial selection or what have you for the past 2000 years. So I wonder if the child is going to be taken back to Dunyean world. Anyway, I just started wondering about that randomly.

Speaker 4 1:27:35

Well, that has to be part of the concern, right, that, like they, they, they want, you know they're afraid of Moengas getting out and letting them know where, like where they are, like they want to keep their, their little isolated piece and so, like what's surely their concerns that Moengas is like spreading knowledge about them, which probably includes, you know, spreading like having kids, right, like maybe Moengas has a bunch of kids, I don't know. I mean Kella says one, two, two. He has almost two currently one, yeah, no wait, he's not.

Speaker 3 1:28:12

He has zero right now.

Speaker 4 1:28:15

Oh well, you're right, Blood-wise, you're right. It's not you're not his child. No, but that doesn't matter for the Dunyean right.

Speaker 3 1:28:22

Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:28:24

I mean I guess that's also the thing is, moengas could adopt a kid. Right, you could take an orphan off the streets and make I mean shit, I mean that could be. Maybe that doesn't have to be his blood son, right Like that that's or Kanki, maybe a part of like.

Speaker 3 1:28:41

The condition to become a Dunyean includes a sense of breeding and genetic manipulation to achieve the right biology.

Speaker 5 1:28:51

That's what I'm thinking, dan, is that they're because there is such a thing, as you know, breeding for behavior, not just you know, not just the phenotype or whatever, but so, like that was my understanding why he's so, why he has the abilities that he has, that are kind of super important.

Speaker 4 1:29:14

No, but yeah, yeah, there definitely is like eugenics stuff going on. Like we've talked about this before, they are breeding for specific traits. But if it actually does something, that's different, right, well that's the well, yeah, and like I don't know, I mean, would that if Moingus himself is sufficiently bred? I mean, would having a kid outside undo that, or would they still be able to be Dunyean? I mean I don't know, I guess that's unclear at this point. Like how much is actually eugenics versus like trains?

Speaker 1 1:29:49

Trainings, yeah, yeah, I mean, they are a pretty localized group of people, so maybe wider variety of genetics available outside makes it so they can train them. I don't know.

Speaker 4 1:30:04

You would think they would be super inbred, Like they would start like being really diseased and like I don't know. I mean, I guess maybe there's enough of them that it's not a problem.

Speaker 1 1:30:13

Yeah, or like Keles goes. Those kids, those kids, those kids, those kids. Their face put on, put on the board. Yeah, keles and Moingus.

Speaker 4 1:30:20

She was so sick they should be, they should like enter the world, and they, I can tell you I went. I think I've talked about this before. I studied abroad, in London. I was sick nonstop. All I did was cross one ocean and I was. You know, and I'm not gonna pretend like I'm the strongest guy on the world, but like you're telling me, Keles and Moingus, who have been living in a little isolated town that's been interbreeding for generations, go out and they don't immediately get sick. I don't believe it.

Speaker 5 1:30:46

Yeah there's a lot of stuff like that that I agree with that.

Speaker 4 1:30:52

But also I'm throwing it away Like the books. I'm done, it's a piece of business.

Speaker 3 1:30:57

Technically we don't know how disease works in this universe. It could be from bad smells. I get it the physics of disease.

Speaker 4 1:31:06

In this, you know, right it's do germs even exist? I don't know. I don't know. People get sick. What's causing them to get sick? Who knows? And the themes?

Speaker 5 1:31:16

of what the brothels are, and then you know, or what have you? And I was thinking about STIs a lot and I was like maybe that doesn't exist in this world.

Speaker 4 1:31:27

Someone definitely got one. Someone talked about like around their genitals.

Speaker 1 1:31:33

And like one of the men, did, I don't remember.

Speaker 4 1:31:36

It was like one of like a random war leader, one of their like random and rithy war leaders talked about like firecrouch, I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:31:48

Maybe the prostitute he stepped with had, I don't know, a particularly vicious whatever, the contraceptive thing is that they, that they, you know. Oh, that's right.

Speaker 4 1:32:00

The little charms. Yeah, yeah, I'm just thinking now, like you know, if you want to like as, like a prostitute, like just really start scaring now this might lead to you getting killed. That like being like I curse you and it's just like you've just given them an STD, it's like you are horribly.

Speaker 3 1:32:19

I don't think that would go down well, given what we know about poverty.

Speaker 4 1:32:26

I think it's like has Esmanette gotten stuff? Like, is she just okay? You know they don't have antibiotics. Like how, how is this working? She slept with a lot of people Like come on, baker. I need the answer.

Speaker 3 1:32:39

Well it?

Speaker 4 1:32:39

I don't know.

Speaker 3 1:32:41

Like in real life. You need a new closet I think we did see she did mention like some contraceptive sort of ball or something that she takes after. So maybe that has healing things too, or it's like disinfectant right, it was a charm.

Speaker 4 1:33:04

So I guess they have like contraceptive, maybe anti STD charms.

Speaker 3 1:33:10

I thought it was like some sort of homemade or something, maybe I'm just thinking about real life, cause in real life that existed, like there was. That's what they use in the past.

Speaker 4 1:33:19

I swear she called it a charm, but maybe it's not literally like a charm she wears, but that was my understanding.

Speaker 1 1:33:26

A coming can see the mouth on it too.

Speaker 3 1:33:29

Oh, there you go. Or maybe some of it cause I know some of it. Stis in our world came from a new world and didn't exist in the old world until Right. We lived there.

Speaker 5 1:33:41

Maybe they're all in there, across the mountains.

Speaker 4 1:33:48

Oh God, you also. I mean you think of the shrink. If they're going around like up more, that's gotta be STDs everywhere. Unfortunately, does that kill us wrong? Are they through the old? I'm so sorry, I got us down the gravel hole. I'm so sorry, but you know these are the questions I also did so you're not the only one to blame here.

Speaker 5 1:34:16

I work in public health, so I can't help it. There you go, there you go.

Speaker 4 1:34:22

Yeah, I have a family. A lot of family members are doctors. So you know, just think about these things. Gotta know.

Speaker 3 1:34:29

Fair enough, it's true, but I guess, about your inbreeding, I guess, possibly, I mean, it's not guaranteed that it, with a lot of inbreeding everyone is completely not disease, but genetically, yeah, I feel like a few thousand people like.

Speaker 5 1:34:46

I don't think it's as big of a deal as you might think. It's more like if it's siblings and that sort of thing. Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:34:53

Like Varsha said, if I just get rid of the ones that are too, inbreeding?

Speaker 4 1:34:57

Yeah, probably would. Yeah, I mean I don't like this has been like is it only one or 2000 years since the apocalypse? It's been 2000 years since the apocalypse, right, the apocalypse has come to a start, roughly of the timeline, but I don't know, I feel like enough generations. It's a thought experiment. Whatever they're doing, their eugenics thing, I get it. And yeah, they probably killed the most inbred ones, but it's not actually that important.

Speaker 4 1:35:30

It would be, I'm not going to lie. It would be pretty funny, though, if they did get exposed to disease and just wipes out. Half of them, like the demon, angels get destroyed.

Speaker 1 1:35:42

Maybe that's what the second series about a disease that kills all three of us.

Speaker 4 1:35:48

It really just yeah, oh man, yeah, that's what the queens are all about.

Speaker 3 1:35:53

Yeah, all the background things which we read about, it's like oh, how are they breeding? Oh, they're breeding and stuff like that and disease, it is like you know it. Just the books don't go into, for obvious reasons.

Speaker 4 1:36:08

The legit thing, yeah, it's not what the story is about, so it's yeah.

Speaker 3 1:36:13

We just accept that it's magic, it's happened somehow.

Speaker 4 1:36:18

It's funny to joke about, but it's not actually a big deal. I don't really care that. Nathan, that isn't sick, unless he is. I mean, I don't know, maybe he is dead, he fucking knows.

Speaker 5 1:36:29

Yeah, I was wondering like, or I actually was wondering if Moengas was dead.

Speaker 4 1:36:36

Or we haven't seen him. So unless Nathan is him, but I don't think so, so I don't know.

Speculating on Apocalypse and Moengus

Speaker 5 1:36:43

What else? What other big questions do we think are need to be wrapped up in these last 100 pages, do we? I don't think. I think, steve, you had hinted previously that not everything gets wrapped up nicely, but I know.

Speaker 4 1:36:59

Karen Spear. I want to know where the Heron Spear is. I mentioned enough and again because the historical parallel, I suspect we will get that answered. Even if it's a fake Heron Spear, I suspect some something that's going to come up. What is the plant there or what's the payoff there for all the planted Heron Spear mentions?

Speaker 3 1:37:23

Oh, because I guess yeah, because that's the analog of the Spear of Lunginus, your best Spear, or Lunginus.

Speaker 4 1:37:30

Yeah, they both say names of her same thing.

Speaker 3 1:37:32

Yeah, yeah, yes, fair enough. Yeah, I didn't think about that.

Speaker 4 1:37:36

Yeah, you're right, that is my thought. That has been my thought since it was first mentioned, but we'll see.

Speaker 5 1:37:42

Well, the big question is the actual second apocalypse coming in the last 100 pages, because that would be relayed out.

Speaker 4 1:37:51

Well, I guess it could right, like that could be how it ends, and then it's just like. My understanding is the later books take place after a time skip, so maybe it's a little apocalypse, Like it's not an overnight thing, right? We know the first apocalypse wasn't like two nights, it was like decades. So I don't know, I mean, that's an interesting thought. I just assumed the apocalypse wouldn't happen in this trilogy, but you're right, it could start.

Speaker 1 1:38:17

Yeah, Speaking of apocalypse, another thing that Eric pointed out was that maybe I'll just pull up his comment but apocalypse, the meaning has come now to mean the end of the world, but I guess the original meaning was revelation. Did we talk about that before? So it could just be the second revelation, not the second end of the world.

Speaker 4 1:38:46

Interesting, interesting idea, true, true. I don't know what they realized, what was the revelation the first time?

Speaker 1 1:38:58

So I wouldn't even know how to speculate for that the concept existed, things will go to exist. Such revelation.

Speaker 5 1:39:07

It's described in the book of revelation in the Bible.

Speaker 4 1:39:16

Yeah, I don't know. Is that like an etymology thing, like that's what it? Yeah, I don't know, apocalypse etymology.

Speaker 3 1:39:23

The thing about it is just.

Speaker 5 1:39:25

Yeah, go ahead, sorry, no, no, no, please, oh no, the thing about it is to me, if you look at what well, what I understood is that it was an apocalypse for the people of the North. The North Surai people, yeah, but everybody else was kind of OK, so it seemed pretty localized.

Speaker 4 1:39:50

So, yeah, it looks like the word comes from Greek. Yeah, it has its etymology. Well, it looks like it's like. You know, it's been in a lot of different languages. Now it's spread, but the original word was Greek, meaning to uncover or to reveal, like that, the etymological root. I'm not even going to try to pronounce it, that's just what Google tells me. So I don't know, maybe Google's wrong, but it does seem like there's something there.

Speaker 3 1:40:20

No, but yeah, because it's in the New Testament in the revelation of the final form of you know like Jesus, coming to Earth and revealing itself to everyone and realizing the world of you know, heaven on Earth pretty much, and all those things.

Speaker 4 1:40:43

It's like heaven beyond Earth.

Speaker 3 1:40:44

Like the Earth ends. Yeah, Earth ends. Everyone gets resurrected in their own real bodies. A bunch of other shit happens A lot of stuff happens.

Speaker 4 1:40:53

Dragon yeah yeah, the dragon better come back. I want more dragons, yeah, and talking about the apocalypse.

Speaker 3 1:41:02

Yeah, kelis says that he hears the no God right.

Speaker 1 1:41:08

Yes, yeah, that was crazy.

Speaker 3 1:41:09

Yeah, yeah. What does it mean?

Speaker 1 1:41:13

Is he lying? Is he telling the truth? You never know with that man.

Speaker 3 1:41:17

Why would he? What would he? Why would he? What's the benefit of saying that lie? Why did he say it?

Speaker 4 1:41:23

No, we, he experienced, like we were with him. When he experienced it? He, when was it? Was it at the end of book two or was it in this book, where he heard the voice and he saw an image? He saw the no God, or he saw someone like meditating and then he heard the no God's voice Was it during the circumfiction.

Speaker 3 1:41:41

I think it was.

Speaker 4 1:41:42

I think that it was during that, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:41:45

No, but he Did he say that it was the no God before, or did he just say it now, or he thinks it is, or whatever, I don't remember.

Speaker 1 1:41:55

We only saw that vision. He had that brief vision. What he's claiming right now was it to the consult Is that he dreams about him on a regular basis and he tells him what he wants, or like it was outrageous. What he claimed that basically he communicates with the no God on a regular basis, like that's what it sounded like. I don't think we know that for sure. If we just saw that one glimpse, you could conclude from that that that's true, or he spun a really tall tail based on that one image.

Speaker 4 1:42:27

What if he manipulates? I mean, I feel like somewhat maybe Mike talked about this before or maybe just joked about it but like, what if he Plays the consult and like takes over the console? Plan is to like woo the consult and then take them over. I mean, I don't know to what ends, maybe just to stop the apocalypse. But I'm just spitball in here, I Mean, because if they think he is their messiah, I mean, can you imagine like what if?

Speaker 5 1:43:00

the thousand-fold thought. Is the the voice of the no God or something? Oh shit, it's just.

Speaker 4 1:43:09

No, no, no. That that's actually a really great idea, or like relating to that right, because it wasn't it. Like the way that it's described, the no God talks is like a thousand thousand voices, yes, strong. So that's an interesting idea, as if it's like something related To like a connection with the no God or or what the no God is. I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 5 1:43:30

I think there's just so much that could potentially happen. At the end here Are we like is this bad? Like you guys do a lot more of these discussions, but I was just. I mean, I'm just thinking about like the next time we meet and we literally have 100 pages, like exactly, at least in my paperback copy.

Speaker 4 1:43:51

It's like exactly a hundred pages. Is this great? How much still has to happen? We still don't know what Moeng is. His deal is it's? I can't believe it. It's.

Speaker 1 1:43:59

It's crazy or Nathan it's. These are the consuls deal. What do any of these people want? I, I don't know. I'm kind of resigning myself that we won't know until the second CDs for most of these questions.

Speaker 4 1:44:12

Nathan had a moongus. We have to. I feel like that's. That was like the promise early on the consult. I think will remain mysterious. But Nathan, that and moongus, I think we'll like, we'll get their deal. Yeah, yeah, it's one just especially you know?

Speaker 5 1:44:26

yeah, that one. I think we're leading up to something, I Moongus. But Just curious, steve, because when you were at this point, whatever a year ago or so, did you have a lot of hope for all of these things coming together? And Should our maybe our expectations should be like? I don't know, you don't have to tell us necessarily, but I was just curious. If you were in the same position as we are, just wondering where you like, where you just going with the flow.

Speaker 2 1:45:02

I Certain point. I just kind of laid back and took it Just kind of accept that you just kind of wait for things to happen. I know it's lots of questions and lots of mysteries.

Speaker 3 1:45:18

It is interesting how you know the theories that you know when you readers are coming up with.

Speaker 2 1:45:24

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3 1:45:25

Yeah, quite interesting. There's some truth in some of them.

Speaker 4 1:45:30

Kellis is definitely going to speak with moongus, so again I think we're gonna get Like that's what's actively happening. He left his army to go see moongus, so I and he I guess he's going to the dead sister city Was what we're gonna do?

Speaker 3 1:45:44

gets very he's dead or something it's like oh this is all my plan, but it's just, you know, working itself on its own be still mad.

Speaker 4 1:45:55

I was like at there. The very least either Kellis or nator needs to encounter moongus. I would love for both of them to, but one of them has to, otherwise I will be upset.

Speaker 1 1:46:09

I would like nator to meet him first.

Speaker 3 1:46:11

Hmm, Okay.

Speaker 1 1:46:14

I would like that very, very much. That's not a theory, just wishful thinking, I don't know like. Confront his demons I guess I care about. I Actually don't care. Every time I feel sympathy for neyar I have to remind myself what a joke he is on a constant basis.

Speaker 4 1:46:33

He's, he's a really well-written character, like I really have to give, hmm, credit to Baker because you do feel for him. Yeah, it's, it's insane like that he makes us feel for like Truly detestable characters like neyar. I mean neyar Maybe is like the epitome of that because, like a lot of the other characters you feel for are, like you know, maybe their. Their point of view is very skewed and they do some bad things, but like they don't, you know, like a came in or has been that don't feel like fundamentally, like they're not like war criminals. You know, like here is, you know, like it's a different level, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:47:09

Yeah, and he's an apologetic in what he does. He's like, yeah, I do this and it's right and I want to do it. I'm gonna continue doing it, we're right, yeah.

Discussion of Book Themes and Characters

Speaker 4 1:47:21

Yeah, actualized in a bad way. Yeah, no one ever said it had to be a good, you know, good thing the duny and two, right, that's, that's the whole. True almost a gnosis, but the stortis path, whatever they think is, is it the gnosis? Am I playing?

Speaker 3 1:47:46

I'm making the turn.

Speaker 4 1:47:47

Yeah look at. Thank you. It's having a brain for it there, oh.

Speaker 1 1:47:54

So, steve, you want to start it. So with what?

Speaker 2 1:48:00

Sure, they're coming to get you down. Whoops, let's see Um page 241. A ruin that the world could not, a ruin that this world cannot stomach and that the ages could not digest. 244 sooner will darken your door.

Speaker 4 1:48:32

What is that?

Speaker 2 1:48:33

that's that was. I believe they are talking about Moengus.

Speaker 4 1:48:40

Yeah, I mean, that's badass.

Speaker 2 1:48:41

Yeah, 253 one of my favorites is only when things are broken did their meaning become clear. 279 war is war is our soul made manifest.

Speaker 4 1:48:58

I remember that quote, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:49:01

And yeah, no solvent damn I.

Speaker 1 1:49:06

Have fun. On page 268. Oh yeah, I think we didn't really talk about this too much, but the sense of almost loss that Men of the holy war feel when they arrive at she may I thought this line captured it really well. What could be worth what they had suffered, what could repay what they had exacted? This place, this chalk white city? I think this was, this was the rest of the people.

Speaker 1 1:49:34

Proist also has a really interesting thought. He found himself wondering if this was always the way when dreams confronted the actuality that conceived them. So there's two, two ways of, but at least two ways that they are thinking about the fact that they've arrived at she may. For proist, it's that the real thing is maybe not suiting your expectations, or almost this. This feeling of what do I do now that I've come here right, I think this was the thing that gave you purpose for these long months no longer exists, or you've, you've got it and like what do you do? What purpose do you get now? And then the other one was that sense of speculation or judgment about, like trying to measure it up and see if it's worth all that you've suffered to get here. I Really liked those lines.

Speaker 4 1:50:31

I'm gonna take a couple. This is this is my final chance for this trilogy, so I'm gonna take a couple shots here for theories. So I'm going back to my one of my faves, the hair and spear. I'm with my boy, proyas, who I continue to not understand why I love him so much. I think that I don't know why I have a special affection for him like he does. I think he's gonna find the hair and spear. I just feel something that would be very cathartic, given that he has been our, our zealot, so that that's totally blindshot there. And the other one is that that quote About you know what could, what could be like worth. All of this is like setting up, you know, for history. They are gonna, when they get in shimei, they are gonna commit a bat like serious atrocity and our gooders gonna start murdering people left and right. It was unleashing all of their anger, which is, I would say, Spoiler alert they're just gonna be hugging people, just yeah.

Speaker 4 1:51:35

You just get kissing people on the lips and you know you beautiful people and it's good to be here.

Speaker 3 1:51:41

We're all the same in the end, but in the end it's the same thing you know Exactly, I'll be disappointed if there's no unicorns or rainbows.

Speaker 4 1:51:52

Exactly at the end. We came this far. It's shimei.

Speaker 1 1:51:56

This. There was one extremely ironic line about how they came here all this way to end centuries of wickedness, unlike what you did on your way here, okay.

Speaker 4 1:52:08

Yeah, it's classic, classic, good point.

Speaker 1 1:52:12

You know, it was done.

Speaker 4 1:52:14

Any, any other last, any other last theories, and curious you to my Varsha, what are, what are your final thoughts before we finish this?

Speaker 5 1:52:24

The only. The only thing that I was thinking about just a moment ago is Are we going to have some reveal related to the non men or Somebody, because I feel like they're kind of lurking. But maybe that's for the second super part of the series.

Speaker 1 1:52:46

Yeah, I just really want to know who the hell made the net is. I think that's that's the mystery. Have been most Invested in from the beginning.

Speaker 3 1:52:54

Maybe he's no one, it's just a normal guy.

Speaker 1 1:52:59

Maybe, very angry at Baker if that's what? No, and maybe not no, I don't think I'll be angry at him, but that might be a cool to read to that it's just not a non-divis I would.

Speaker 4 1:53:18

I would. I would be upset dragging it out this much. I anti climaxes can only go so far. I Before at a certain point I'm just like no, you got, you got. Like it's make the net. There's something there. There's there's something.

Speaker 2 1:53:38

You just a guy.

Speaker 1 1:53:45

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:53:47

I think it's better low expectations, because otherwise I don't want to be let down. We've had a great experience and a nice long journey.

Speaker 4 1:53:59

I, you can, you can count me as one of the believers. Baker's gonna land this plane. Okay, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 1:54:12

I did have some water. The quote it's not really quote because I don't have it right now, I just remember it. I think it went some when he was talking to all the nobles gathered and he said something like he was talking about the the story of Sigenus who's going there, and he was being judged by the king. I think it was saying who is this menial that speaks as a king? And then this then hold this cash. I mean he ends it with I am. I Thought that one was very good Rhetoric sort of. If I was there I would have been really.

Speaker 1 1:54:47

Into that.

Speaker 3 1:54:48

I just say oh yeah, I'm convinced me.

Speaker 4 1:54:51

Yeah, yeah, that was a good one.

Speaker 3 1:54:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:54:58

And I don't remember it. I have to go. It was it during the speech he gave.

Speaker 4 1:55:05

Yeah, it's callus, just you know owning people.

Speaker 1 1:55:08

Oh yeah, and there was a liner about how he called out a few and Made them feel known, so he made everyone feel like he knew them.

Speaker 3 1:55:19

I think that was the next one, the next big assembly or people.

Speaker 1 1:55:23

I think, cool, I'll go zip that up after we finish. Yeah, any other closing thoughts before we say goodbye?

Speaker 2 1:55:35

It's gonna be fun.

Speaker 1 1:55:36

Yeah, I'm excited for the last hundred pages. I might even read it before Now. Yeah, good, so then let's do our choice. Mike, do you want to start us off?

Speaker 2 1:55:52

Yes.

Speaker 5 1:55:53

You know I'm again and my name is Mike and you can find me on the page chewing forum and sometimes I'm also active on the page chewing comics and manga podcast and I am.

Speaker 4 1:56:12

I am Carl the Albert on most social media Ideally find me at page shirings. I hate social media. It's just an unfortunate requirement for trying to make a career as a writer. And on that note, you can find my book truth of crowns on the interwebs. Just look it up. At this point you can find it.

Speaker 3 1:56:36

And I'm Dan, you can find me on the page for him the entire 17. And if you're interested in talking about the first war, war on the Italian front in the Alps I've been reading a lot about it recently, so you know, if you are, message me.

Speaker 2 1:56:52

Nice talk. I Can attest to truth of crowns being if you love tragedy, you'll love to the crowns. Yeah, we just finished. We'll be discussing that soon with the Varsha, and so you find me on page chewing, on the page doing podcasts, page chewing comics and manga with my wonderful co-host, mike, and On film chewing yeah, come on, say hi.

Speaker 1 1:57:21

And you can find me Varsha on my youtube channel reading by the rainy mountain on the podcast speculative speculations and honey out on the page during forum All the time. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you in about a week. Bye.

Speaker 3 1:57:39

You.