Backyard Ultra Callouts, Snowdonia Controversy & Are Elite Runners Boring? | Long Run Archives #37

In this edition of Long Run Archives, Finn Melanson is joined by Brett Hornig and Jeff Colt for a wide-ranging conversation about some of the biggest debates circulating in trail and ultrarunning right now.

We begin with a viral moment from the sport: Charlie Lawrence being called out to run a backyard ultra. Could a 100K record holder actually threaten the backyard ultra world record, or is the discipline too specialized for that kind of crossover? The group discusses what determines success in the backyard format and why the event continues to fascinate runners across disciplines.

Next, we explore a provocative question making the rounds online: are elite trail runners boring? Are influencers better storytellers than professional athletes, or is that narrative missing the point? Along the way we discuss historical tensions between performance and storytelling in the sport and what audiences actually respond to.

In the second half of the episode, we unpack two recent race controversies:

• Ultra Trail Snowdonia’s major course change after registration opened
• The possibility that the historic JFK 50 Mile could move from its traditional course due to funding disputes

What responsibility do race organizers have when circumstances force major changes after runners have already committed?

Finally, we play a round of Overreaction / Underreaction, reacting to statements like:

• Molly Seidel is already a Western States podium contender
• Jen Lichter could enter the top echelon of the sport with a Western States win
• Crowdfunded prize purses may surpass traditional race payouts
• Kilian Jornet could still win both Western States and UTMB in the same season

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The single track podcast is brought to you by Norda, the official footwear partner of the show. And if you're getting ready for a race this spring or summer, I must recommend to you their 005 model. It's the lightest, fastest, most stable super shoe on the market right now. Alongside the 055, I'll be using it at key races all season long. Don't wait. Go check it out, NordaRun.com. Today's episode is also brought to you by Precision Fuel and Hydration. If you've ever blown up late in a race, chances are your fueling plan, that's carbs, sodium, fluids, wasn't quite right. Precision has a free fuel and hydration planner that helps you figure out exactly what you should be taking in per hour based on how you've trained your race and the conditions out there. I have been using it recently while dialing in my own race nutrition strategy. I have seen the benefits. If you want to try it out for yourself again, it's free. Head to Precisionhydration.com forward slash planner. We're back, long run archives number 37, joined by friends, colleagues, Brett Hornig, Jeff Colt. Brett, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_07 0:59

Dude, I'm doing good. I'm just writing in my notes right now that it's episode 37 because the last few episodes, I was like, I don't know what number we're on. And I I just like to keep track. So good to be here. 37 episodes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

That's that's a that's getting uh get to be a pretty big number. I'm actually tempted to go back and listen to the first just to see what our talk track was. Do you remember any of it? Uh yeah, I actually do.

SPEAKER_07 1:24

Because it was that. No, it's it was the first one. The biggest thing that I think we hung up on for like three quarters of the episode was just various what ifs. Yes. We're like, what if Magda enters the sport four years earlier? What if Jim doesn't miss that turn? Does he just win Western states? Be like, see, trails easy, and then just moves on to something else. I remember we had just a bunch of those.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Dude, the funniest thing, and we probably recycled a lot of it because I was talking with Jeff the other day and I thought I was having like a totally novel conversation. And then Jeff just like sent me the transcript of our first ever podcast together, like four years because, like, dude, nothing has changed.

SPEAKER_06 2:07

Yeah, literally, we covered like almost all of the same things. Dude, we like went on a run and got coffee together, and then afterwards I was like, you know, how much have I changed in the last four years or whatnot? Like, I went back and listened to Finn Had Me On as like the Chasing Gold series after Black Canyon and listened to this episode. And I was like, all right, actually, I think I've stayed pretty true to myself. And Finn and I have been having the same conversation for four years.

SPEAKER_07 2:34

That's that's what I love about trail running podcasts. We get older, but the topics stay the same.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Okay, with that in mind, we're doing something slightly new this episode. There are a couple of reels that we're gonna highlight, and I want to bring the audience into it. So, first topic is Charlie Lawrence, who is the current, I believe, 100K American record holder at the Road 100K or track 100K. He has been goaded into doing a backyard ultra. I'm gonna play the reel here for you guys right now.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

This video is for Charlie Lawrence. Recently on a podcast, you made the following statement.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

I think like a backyard ultra. Again, this is me like a strike off arrogant, but I think I could go get a world record in that. Do I want to? Yeah, I think you could go. How much do I how uh name the chat? How much do I have to write to see you uh give this a crack? I probably look at halfway to six figures.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Okay. Sure. I challenge you to a 1v1 backyard ultra winner take all. I don't need money to show up, but if you do, I bet there's a way we could figure that out. This video's for Charlie.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

React in any which way you you desire, Brett.

SPEAKER_07 3:48

Dude, well, Mountain Outpost can put it on and we can crowdfund this prize purse. Easy for one. Um, maybe even get a couple spons like brand sponsors to pony up some matches. Um also Charlie's not he's not breaking the world record in the backyard ultra. Like does he even know the rules of a backyard ultra?

SPEAKER_06 4:16

Because I could run a little advocate for you, Brett. Yeah. I think he I think Charlie Lawrence probably feeds off of that type of doubt. And like if you really want him to do it, like keep saying that he couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_07 4:27

Um he can't do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:28

Charlie's a super impressive. You can't do it. You can't do it.

SPEAKER_05 4:31

There we go.

SPEAKER_06 4:32

Uh I think he's a super impressive runner. I think that's uh not necessarily giving uh um respect to that discipline of like the backyard ultra discipline. Um I I agree. I think it's uh like surprisingly challenging. It's a whole different sport. Yeah. And I I still think it's one where like the the needle can be moved. And what I love about it is it's like a discipline where the whole goal is to move the needle. So like if you know if Charlie Lawrence is trying to pick up other, you know, gimme world records, I don't know if that's as easy as a gimme as you might think.

SPEAKER_07 5:10

No, I don't think so either. Plus, like, I don't and it it what like what so far from what we've seen in successful backyard ultra runners, like what are the tools that they have that make them successful at it? And looking at a lot of the like one of them is not top-end speed.

SPEAKER_06 5:33

No, I think it's trauma, dude. I think it's childhood trauma. I think that's like the major tool you need.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Dude, my trauma's bigger than your trauma.

unknown 5:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:43

Trauma, that'll take you to 500 plus.

SPEAKER_06 5:47

Um, Mark Dowdle, he's the guy who's calling him out. I love that video. Yeah. I love like, well, I just heard this shit and like I'm just gonna go ahead and call him out right now. Like he's he's pretty decorated, right? Like he he's kind of the uh holding court, you know, in in the US in a way right now.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

He has a track record of backyard ultras. I believe he's his current personal best is 283 yards, which would take him, I think, well into day four or five. So he's been deep into these things, and then he just won this race called the Arrowhead 135 out in Minnesota, where you carry a sled with all your gear behind you. Nice. So he's pretty sp I think he's specialized. So I it would the maybe the the fight card here would be oh, go ahead. Sorry, are you saying that you can specialize in uh in this distance? Well, that's that's the open question. Well, that was my question. It was like the main question.

SPEAKER_06 6:43

We already we talked a little bit about specialization in 200s. Can you be a specialist in the 200? And and I think the answer there was like, not really.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

But maybe that's like short compared to winning a backyard ultra.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah. I think the fight card plays that up. It's like the person who has invested their career in that particular discipline versus the just like the standout athlete who is super fast and just assumes that he can come in, blow the door down, and dominate the scene. That's the fight card right there.

SPEAKER_06 7:18

Yeah, I think for the last two long run episodes we did together, I bit my tongue around this whole 200-mile scene because, like, quite frankly, I'm not interested in running a 200. So I don't want to like speak my mouth and say something that will end up resulting in me getting challenged to run a 200 and then having to run a 200. But Charlie Lawrence did it here, you know. He he kind of, you know, be careful what you wish for. If you say you're gonna break the world record and the backyard ultra and the big dog on campus calls you out on it, like, let's let's see it. I I want to make this happen. I want to see this happen. I think this is stepping stepping stones on the road to LA Olympics 2028 backyard ultra being.

SPEAKER_07 8:00

Oh, yeah, with the opening ceremony.

SPEAKER_06 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 8:02

Yeah, I agree. I think I would I would watch that. That would probably, I mean the yeah, the drama, the table's already been set. I mean, it's there, but yeah. I mean, I just don't see where like having a fast 100K gives you evidence that you can like stay awake for five days.

SPEAKER_06 8:22

Yeah. I mean, I I do not know a ton about Charlie Lawrence beyond like his posts get paid to show up in my feed, which I typically don't like paid things showing up in my feed. And he's got this, like, those Adidas shoes were so squishy. Um, and like I think of Charlie Lawrence and I just think of those like super Adidas shoes from the 100K just like squishy. I slight side tangent.

SPEAKER_07 8:47

Whether or not that I cannot believe how, from my point of view, how much Adidas dropped the ball on the marketing for that hundred K. Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_04 8:57

No, didn't we say that was going on during the Olympics or something? When was it going on again? It UTMB week, right?

SPEAKER_07 9:04

Or yeah, it was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:06

It was completely lost in, I think it might have been UTM B week because like the people who would care about it, I think I was trying to make the argument would have been the ultra-distance community.

SPEAKER_07 9:18

Yeah. And like they had this amazing teaser reel that like basically said we handpicked like eight of the best hundredk runners in the world that all happened to run for Adidas, and we're gonna break the world record. Location, we're not telling you. Race start, we're not telling you. Like, um, and then and then it happened, and then they were like, We did it. And I was like, What why couldn't I watch this? And then, like, as I learned some of the details about like where it was and how they did, I was like, this is amazing. Why didn't I get to watch this on TV? Come on, guys. Like, they built a whole shoe. They had like F1, like Valteri Bottas got to like give input on the shoe and like talk to it. I'm like, freaking Mercedes and stuff, like what nothing? I was like, geez, this was an ultra marathon.

SPEAKER_06 10:13

Tom Evans hiking protocol got better PR post-UTMB than this Adidas 100K world record, like says that it was a miss on the Adidas you know side. Yeah, like more people know about Tom's hiking and Ruth's hiking than the Adidas 100K world record. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Yeah. They must have uh the the Adidas marketing team must have consulted the Boulder Colorado endurance community and told them you can't spray. You can't spray about this. You know, just quietly do the work and talk about it after the fact.

SPEAKER_07 10:45

They didn't even do that much talking after the fact.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Like dude, it would that is a great I for I totally forgot about that, Brett. That was wild.

SPEAKER_07 10:54

I know. And I still don't have a pair of those shoes. I was I was gonna do the buffalo run in them, you know.

SPEAKER_06 11:03

When when uh when I was like nine or ten years old, my brother and sister, I think both qualified for Hershey Nationals, uh, or maybe Willie did that year. And we went down, Hershey has like a huge theme park, really cool theme park, right? But you have to be 48 inches tall to ride like the really fun rides, like the Great Bear and and whatnot. And at that point I was probably like 45 inches tall. So my mom bought me a pair of these black and white platforms that were like truly like three inches, you know, platform shoes. Um, and I just had like some like long, like kind of like baggy jeans on that were you know in vogue at that era. And dude, that's in again. 2000, 2001. And uh like got to ride on all the rides because I was just over 48 inches, and those shoes, the Adidas shoes, remind me of my Hershey Park platforms.

SPEAKER_07 11:58

Meanwhile, you're getting like whipped around by the roller coaster, your feet are dangling. You're just like both ACLs are blown because you got five pounds attached to each ankle.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

I was made of rubber at that point in life. Before we go to this next topic, I can't let this go unaddressed. Jeff, you hinted earlier that you didn't totally speak your piece about 200 milers.

SPEAKER_06 12:20

Oh yeah, I think they're for some people, and that's great.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Okay. That that's that's less that's that's less candy.

SPEAKER_06 12:26

What I was implying was that I didn't uh I didn't want to make any like grandiose statements because quite frankly, I'm not interested in running a 200 right now. And um like I I look around at the the scene and like there might be a course eventually that I'm that I'm hyped on and the time in life is right. But yeah, I I said that because I like I do think that if you are gonna run your mouth in that way and someone calls you out on it, it's kind of like, all right, well, you set yourself up for that. Like, go get it. Let's see this 500-mile backyard ultra dog. It's gonna be sick.

SPEAKER_07 13:01

Yeah, you don't want someone making an Instagram reel challenging you to Coca-Dona.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Has there ever been the trail running equivalent of like the Alexander Hamilton Aaron Bird duel? Has someone's honor ever been called into question?

SPEAKER_07 13:18

Like a full head-to-head, like like name the place, name the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Good.

SPEAKER_06 13:27

We might get into that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

So, anyways, here, so I'm gonna I'm gonna say the question and I'm gonna play the real, but we basically have it is we have we have to address this debate question, which is are elite trailrunners boring? And I'm gonna play the context here.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Elites are boring. I'm not inspired by elites in the slightest bit. And I think it's because there's this like fragile mentality of elites where they pour so much into their craft and trade that they can only accept celebration for the time and accomplishment that they received. And anything less than that is kind of an insult. And let me explain that. Elites aren't great storytellers. Like they're they're I believe they're interesting, but for whatever reason, I don't know if it's insecurity or they're they're just so compartmentalized, they don't share interesting stories anymore. Like they they only want to get on podcasts and talk about their training and how they're you know able to accomplish such you know elite, godly results. But yet you have somebody like, let's say, Max Jolliffe, right, who has incredibly uh immense talent and and does things that are wildly impressive, you know, to the rest of us amateurs as well. But he's not talent-wise there with the tip of the spear in the elites, but he resonates because he tells stories, he lets people in. He almost gets judged, right, by these elites or gatekeepers and say he's not worthy of this attention. Why is he getting more attention than me? He's not capable of running as fast as me. And it's like, yeah, you're telling on yourself. Like it's it's not about how fast you're running, it's about how relatable you are and how I have a question.

SPEAKER_07 15:05

Do elite do elites talk shit about Max Jolliff being like he doesn't deserve this much attention? Has anyone I've never heard anyone say that. I mean, I'm not elite. I've taught I have I'm friends with some runners that are pre-elite, and he's never come up in their com in conversations.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

I have never heard yeah, I have never heard Max Jolliffe's value to the sport come under fire from elites. That's the first time I'm hearing that.

SPEAKER_06 15:31

Yeah, Max also, I mean, yeah, he's super fast, right? Just ran like a 235, 234 marathon. Like um He's a faster media guy than me. I my follow-up question was are elites asking for more credit or attention than they get? Like, I I I don't know who was speaking there or where that's necessarily coming from. The gist that I was pulling from it was like I think it's okay for uh elites, say a Jim Walmsley, to show some frustration that half of the ultrarunning community thinks David Goggins might be the best ultrarunner ever. And like the just like the the imbalance there of like there's there's you know, a group of influencers, storytellers, they've written books, they've like talking about their life's journey through running. And there is a pretty significant misconception that like David Goggins is the best ultra runner ever. Um, right. And like if if that's the point he's getting at, like, I don't think that's necessarily elite to asking for more credit or attention. Um I think that's just like, hey, like no stress or you know, uh like saying anything bad on on David Goggins' name. The guy is certainly incredibly influential, right? But like he he's not the fastest ultrarunner, right? Like um so that that's kind of what I was parsing out in in that little bit there. But like, yeah, Max Joloff's a great storyteller. I also like anytime there's anything on Courtney or Killian, like I watch it pretty much immediately. I think Killian's an amazing storyteller. Um, he he often gets earmarked as like, oh, but he's the exception. Right? Like, I think Killian, you know, can run all distances. And then whenever people are like, well, who's like the biggest ultra trail runner influencer? Like, and it comes back to Killian, people are like, well, actually, yeah, he is like super influential and he does a good job with all these things. So maybe he is an exception there. What do you guys think about that?

SPEAKER_07 17:37

Yeah, I guess my like what does it even mean to be boring? I mean, yeah, Finn, the real that you shared with us, said like talking about training and like putting all your chips, you know, out there, like laying them all out there for one particular race, or your career, your life as a professional trail runner is boring. I don't think that's boring. Like I've always loved the like following the very tippy top of all sports to see what sacrifices these athletes make in order to become like I think that's beautiful. Like I love like for like it's also scary though.

SPEAKER_06 18:19

Like that's my reality check a lot. Like I go back to some of like things Jack Kenzel has said and be like, Am I grounded? Am I still like like, you know, as as someone who's like fully given themselves to like this pursuit of excellence and being the very best, like all power to him. Like that's just not the path I'm trying to choose. Um and like so when I when I hear the examples of I mean, look at Jack Kenzel's race logs, like or training logs, they were always public in his in his Instagram, but Killians are published each year as well. And I'm like, yeah, there are 22 hours a week where I'm choosing to do other things other than train for ultrarunning compared to these guys.

SPEAKER_07 19:02

Yeah, and like I don't know. I just I don't think that's I just don't think that's boring.

SPEAKER_06 19:06

The the counterpart, like, are you choosing to tell your story? And like I actively choose not to like tell my life story through videos or long form or content or short form content, really. Like there's certain things that I'm pretty happy to just keep keep within my own home and within my own family and like friend groups and stuff. And I don't think that that makes someone necessarily like boring or is a problem with elites. There's some elites who share their stories and there's some regular runners who share their stories and like more power to folks for making that decision one way or another. I'm not gonna like poo-poo someone for not opening up more and talking about their trauma. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 19:52

No, I agree.

SPEAKER_06 19:53

That's that's a decision. And if you choose to make that, that's great. But like whoever that guy talking was, I'm choosing not to let him in, and I'm fine with that.

SPEAKER_07 20:01

I think another thing too is like the um like if if we're talking about athletes that have sponsors, you know, like they're running professionally, I feel like it should be a little bit too on the brands to like figure out how to properly position this athlete. Like, if they can like if that if like you should like on should know who Jeff Colt is, and they're like, oh, we have this idea, and we're like, that's a perfect Jeff thing. We should work with Jeff on that. Not like we have this, you know, we have this documentary that we're gonna make, and it's gonna be Jeff talking about something that you don't want to talk about for 45 minutes, and then we're gonna put this whole training montage over. It's like I think brands could also do a little bit better job at positioning their athletes uh in a way that uses them for the correct style of content.

SPEAKER_06 20:54

Well, I mean, that also might be the correct style of content for athletes, right? And like you've got athletes, you've got influencers. Brands are out there storyboarding and trying to find, like, oh, did you hear about so-and-so? This would be an amazing story. I hear they're a huge fan of on. Like, we should see if we can work in a story with them. Excuse me. Um I feel like a lot of the content pieces that you see come out around professional athletes are like, I think of Tyler Andrews, you know, uh, and his like summit attempts. It's like, yeah, that's a Herculean feat. Makes sense for La Sportiva to try to put money into documenting him summoning Everest. That's like super cool. Is that a you know, think piece on Tyler Andrews, the up and comer who's uh never quite been in the spotlight in the way that he should be, and you know, ran D three instead of D one and he's always like right there with the best. But I don't know. It's like that's Tyler Andrews trying to run a fucking Everest. Excuse my language. Um I think the uh Like as someone who's uh works with a brand, like our athletes, we're showcasing their accomplishments, we're showcasing um when they ski really, really well. Stories about people with messed up feet who find success through our product, we're showcasing their story of like, this is how I got messed up feet, and this is why this product has helped me. And like, this is my story. And those stories have way more substance to them because they're meant to be more relatable. I don't know. Our athletes always meant to be relatable. Like, I think the the this conversation from the get-go is like, you know, he resonates more with the 99% of the runners instead of the 1% of the elite. Like, that's fine. That's the aspirational group that like it's kind of hard to relate to that. Uh what's relatable is like getting up every day and going and doing the damn thing. But I can't relate to running 64 and the half marathon, and I have to, you know, line up and raise that guy at some point.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

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SPEAKER_06 25:16

I mean, it's crazy to think about that before like the Instagram self-promotion kind of like era.

SPEAKER_07 25:23

Yeah.

unknown 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 25:24

That was like in the form of books. Which like, and like when I was in high school. Cave drawings. Yeah. Like the hieroglyphics, I I read about Dean Carnasis when I was in high school. I didn't read about Scott. And as far as I was concerned, Dean was the only person humanly capable of running 100 miles plus. Everyone else would die because he was doing relay races by himself. So like, I I could see where Scott's frustrations are coming from because Yeah, like people like me are like, oh, it's it's Dean and nobody else. Um I'm I'm curious though, if we were talking it back in a time when one was making a livable wage and one was not. Whereas today there's more people on both sides of the ball that are making livable wages. I mean, there's still lots of people that aren't, but there's at least people running for you know competitive results and influencers that are both getting paid.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

The other point that I was gonna make is I actually think that if we took two columns in one column was pros, one was influencers, I think in a lot of cases I'm actually taking the pro as more entertaining and interesting than the influencer. Like if we're taking the the two like the two categories, like the best of the best, like I personally think that if we had a competition, the most interesting, entertaining athlete in our sport is a pro, and it's David Roche. He's he's the most entertaining, the most polarizing, and he's elite. And he so he's a pro. Like he's he goes, you put him for sure, I put him for sure in the pro category. Definitely. I think he would put himself in the pro category. Right? He better. Actually, he's pretty humble. You never know. So I think he I think he takes I think he takes the cake. And then I think people like Jim Walmsley are really interesting, Rachel Entrickin, Molly Seidel, Scott Jurik. Every time we have Scott on the pod, he is the same person in 25 that he was in 07. Like he's willing to talk about anything. So maybe, maybe to me, the answer here is like I think there's a bunch of elites that are interesting. Maybe, maybe this commentator is just saying like they're not interesting at scale. And if you took it in those terms, but I I don't know. Like I interview these people, I I'm at least I'm interested. I'm I'm maybe not asking the best questions, but I'm I've I'm interested in their stories from what they're talking about. I think that's what it is. You are asking the best questions.

SPEAKER_07 27:51

You bring the interesting out of maybe what people believe to be non-interesting people in the first place. And that is the beauty of the single track podcast.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

I didn't I promise I did not mean to cue that up. Thank you, Brett. Thank you so much. Shouts to the single track pod. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_06 28:12

What a good plug right there. Like and subscribe. Um, I think I think you brought up a good point. One of the reasons, like I yeah, I seek out Jim is he's like he is reserved, right? He's not putting everything out there for the world to see. And like I think the times we do get uh little snippets or insights into his world, into how he's thinking about things, it's really enlightening. Um, you know, the three of us getting to sit down with Jim before Western States this last year and like hear about that was an amazing conversation. Yeah, yeah. Like I I'm with you. I think they um I think that a lot of elites are really interesting. I also will go ahead and say, like, I'm very grateful that it is not in my contract to do a bunch of social media stuff and to like do a bunch of reels and storytelling because like I don't have time for it. Um so like if that's something we're expecting of elites, that's like you know, yeah, I don't know. It's it's my goal is to focus on running and try to do it really well. Um I like getting to you know riff with you guys from time to time, but uh like there are different contracts that focus more on posts and like how you're storytelling around the new drop of the cloud monster hyper light spray. And like that's not being asked of me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Oh, I just thought that was it.

SPEAKER_06 29:42

Yeah, should we talk for the next hour about light spray? No, I did get it. It looks cool.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Brett, any final thoughts from you here before we talk Snowdoni and JFK?

SPEAKER_07 29:54

I mean, at the end of the day, I mean it's just all an opinion. Like whether I think it's interesting, whether someone else thinks it's not. Um I that we've said this before. I still am in the camp of I don't think there's an oversaturation of trail content out there on the internet. I think there's plenty there could be more. There could be more content, and I would still consume it all. So like I want the the interesting people to make stuff, I want the boring people to make stuff, and I will decide whether I think it's interesting or not. But I don't think it's a one or the other, like black or white, of like elite runners are boring, non-elite runners are not boring.

SPEAKER_06 30:39

I do think brands give influencers some pretty unreal opportunities. And like, you know, there were a bunch of influencers invited to the Olympics. Like you didn't see uh, I'm thinking about like the Paris games, like you didn't see a bunch of trailrunners and stuff going to the Paris Games with their brands. Uh and it's just like like there's there's certain areas where things can be better communicated and put out there by by influencers. And if that means that an elite athlete's gonna focus on their race, that's cool. But my final question on that do we think Shackleton was an elite? Because like Shackleton's the best story ever.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:21

So is he an influencer or an elite?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Here's what I here's what I think. I think life was so brutal in industrial England in the late 1800s that they were better off going on going to Antarctica and possibly suffering big time than hanging back home. Wow. So actually they actually they copped out. They ran away. It would have been they ran away. They turned their back on the world when it got hard. Harder staying at home. No one talks about that. Yeah, you're right. Should should write a book about that. Uh okay. We talked about this a little bit with Alyssa Clark on this week's single track news, but apparently this news comes in pairs. It is registration/slash course change controversy coming from two totally different races, Ultra Trail Snowdonia, which is owned by UTMB and Iron Man over in Wales, and the JFK 50, say it ain't so, independent race in Boonesboro, Maryland. Jeff, maybe pointing to you, because you actually have a stake in this, you are registered for the Snow Diddy 100K. Uh, do you want to summarize, resummarize the issue at hand here, and I can talk about JFK?

SPEAKER_06 32:36

Yeah. I'll give the high level and then like the personal level. The high level is uh Snowdonia sells out early. It sold out in like October or so. Um the 100K is the marquee distance at that race. That 100K um has like something like 18 or 19,000 feet of climbing in it. Uh, it's like meant to be pretty brutal and grueling. It's been on my radar since like living in the White Mountains and people kind of sharing like, yeah, this Snowdia region like is reminiscent of New Hampshire's White Mountains, just like without trees. Um and so my friend Peter Howe wanted to go over, I think, in like 2017, and I like dog eared it as like Snowdonia would be really cool. Um I heard some rumors that like maybe the race might not happen, like it was unclear what was going on, like hearing just some like, you know, insider talk, and then uh they ended up releasing the course, and the course was changed dramatically from the previous year's course and what was published at time of registration. Uh, it now has 2,000 meters less elevation, almost all in the back 40 kilometers. So the first 60K is still quite mountainous. The final 40K is like pretty flat and fast. Um and yeah, uh, I guess to add insult to injury, right before the courses were published, they actually opened more spots in terms of entries for 100k and they sold more bibs and then released it. So, like anyone who didn't get in in October was like, oh my gosh, I might now have the opportunity to get in. Gets in, sees that it's actually a different course. Um personally, like I was trying to do mountainous races this year. So I've got Chianti 74K, that's like 10,000 feet of climbing or so next week. Um, then it would be Snowdia, then San Juan Solstice, and then High Lonesome. Um, and part of that plan was each one is I think the final effort ends up being strength building, then more like muscle breakdown, muscle damage. Um, if I was doing a fast 50K or a fast 100K in there, I think it would be a little different. This change to Snowdonia's back half now kind of puts me in this like, hmm, I'm not sure about recovery for that four weeks later for San Juan Solstice and doing another super mountainous, uh, mountainous run. Um, as of right now, like all my travels booked, my Airbnb's booked. I'm going with my college roommate. We're gonna see a um, you know, we're gonna see a football match the weekend before. Like we're we've been really excited about this trip. Tom Evans has also signed up for that 100k, and there is no person I want to race more in this world than Tom Evans. So, like that's your dream matchup. That's my dream matchup. I wanted it hard rock, and I didn't get into hard rock, but like I want to race Tom. Like, um so whether it's a little flatter or a little steeper, like I'm gonna try to change my training and plans accordingly, but I do think it's likely like it sounds like it's not as scenic or beautiful or extreme of a race, and um I likely will have to make a decision more of an audible around San Juan Solstice based on recovery from uh Snowdonia. But yeah, definitely a bummer. Like the this is all coming, like I I probably have eight thousand, seven thousand dollars or so like into all of this travel and stuff. But like I have a sponsor that's covering that, and that's I'm super freaking fortunate for that. Like if you know, like I think back to like 2019 going to CCC and paying my own way there and stuff, like if that had happened at that race and like actually we're not gonna do this course, I would have been ripshit.

SPEAKER_07 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:40

I'm still I'm still you know puckered.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Finn, can you give us a breakdown for JFK? Should I do you want me to give you the UTMB perspective on synodony first?

SPEAKER_05 36:54

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

And then we'll talk JFK. Okay. So I had a phone call with Florian at UTMB earlier today because I do think the more we can just like incorporate both sides into it just so that we have all the facts, the better. And basically the backdrop here is this event used to be owned by a local company called Apex Running. Four years ago, UTMB acquired it. They've run it now for four years. Again, this is all Florian's perspective. Historically, both when it was under UTMB jurisdiction and Apex Running, all of the permits operated under oral commitments. It wasn't written like you would see here in the US. And so they've just sort of like taken the local land trusts and private landowners at their words going into each year. They open up registration back in July. In October, they have a meeting with all the local stakeholders. And the local stakeholders basically tell them look, this year you're going to need to reduce fields in both the 100 mile and 100K from 900 to 1,000, and each of those down to 300 each. So about 600 runners across those two distances. And they're like, okay, so they do that. And because of that, you see a huge wait list form, a huge buildup of people that want to run but can't get in because it's just a lower field this year. All of a sudden, a week or two ago, again, according to UTMB, they have another meeting with the local leaders, land trusts, et cetera. And they basically tell them, we told you 600 earlier. It's actually going to be 300. So use that number how you will. And what UTMB decided to do was maintain the 300-person field for the 100 mile and then make changes to the 100K. So that course changed, the 100 mile stayed the same. And because they changed the course, it opened up more permitting opportunity. And all the people that were stacked on that wait list from when registration opened in July, they were allowed to come in. And basically U Tim B saw that as an opportunity. I talked with Florian about this and I was like, look, I'm a fellow race director. Do you see issue in like fundamentally changing a course and then not offering runners who signed up based on something that was advertised differently the chance to refund or defer whatever? And he basically said to me, like, we don't see it that way. All of these trail races, it's like inherent to the nature of trail running. It's subject to changes. That's just the reality. And we promise to provide a great experience based on the revised course. So they, I don't think that they agree that you know there should be an opportunity to like, you know, refund these runners. Like you just have to kind of take it.

SPEAKER_07 39:32

It it does still seem a little shady, though, that they're like knowing the course is going to change, but then like clear the wait list and then announce it to everyone. Like you'd think it would have been like an email that goes out to all the waitlisted people being like, you're about to get off the wait list, the course is going to change. Do you want to defer to a future year, take your refund, blah, blah, blah. I agree. But I guess that then comes down to just like ethics of a business and how they decide to run. Because I imagine the ethics of business. The ethics of business. That's what this podcast is all about. Finn, I know you love that stuff.

SPEAKER_06 40:11

Business ethics. Um, I I think just saying that before opening up those spots would have been the right move. Um, personally. I think transparency, like clear is always kind. And it's like, hey, we're opening up more spots. This is the reason why. If you want to be off the wait list and register, you can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:32

Um and I bet even if you gave that option, like say a refund, like if you're already entered into the race and it's like, we're changing this is a big massive course change. We understand it might not be what you registered for. You can, you know, we can refund you. Clearly, we'll not give you your money back, but we'll give you like UTMB dollars. Yeah. Um, you know.

SPEAKER_06 40:51

Yeah, UTMB credit, or even the option to bump down to the 50K, which is still super rowdy. Yeah. I bet they still sell it out.

SPEAKER_07 41:00

I bet they still sell it out just with different people. Yeah. Um, and and then they don't look nearly as bad because yeah, it it does definitely feel a bit like it feels a little bit icky the way that this all played out for sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Yeah, so I was, I was honestly, I'll be, I was shooketh that there's no plan for refunds. Um, I know in in my position as a race director, if if the rug was pulled out under us for a section of the Twisted Fork course or the Buffalo Run course, whatever, and it radically altered things and took away, for example, 33% of the vert on the 68k course, the first thing I would do is I would send an email to the runners and be like, look, like this is a fundamental change. If you want to refund or defer, I will not fault you. Go ahead and take it. That just seems like good business.

SPEAKER_07 41:50

Yeah. I I don't know. For the long term, that's how it seems. Maybe, maybe you rely more on returning customers than UTMB does. I don't know. Maybe they're in the market of like, yeah, we can we can afford to just let all these people be one and done and then move on to the next crop of people that see, you know, an Instagram reel about this race and decide they want to go do it. Um I don't know. But uh yeah, that is a bummer, especially like like from your standpoint too, Jeff, of like it, it changes, it kind of alters the next bit of your racing season because of the physical demands of the last uh like 40k. You say 40k or 40 miles?

SPEAKER_06 42:31

40k.

SPEAKER_07 42:33

But it is funny.

SPEAKER_06 42:33

It's like, oh, if it was harder, then it would have less damage on me. But because it's flatter, it's gonna have more damage on me, which is probably gonna impact me more, which like there's a ton of truth to.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

I'll say this. I I think I uh as a fellow event director, it it I can I feel UTMB's pain being told back in the fall that they were gonna get this permit, and then they kind of hand shook on it, and then at this hour, two months before the race, they are told something totally different and they have to make this change. So that's a bummer. That is a bummer.

SPEAKER_07 43:03

I wonder that why. I don't know. Why now all of a sudden there's pushback to like did the fields grow a ton from four years ago to now, or have they been about this size? Aaron Powell Apparently, Flooring's saying they've been trying to increase the fields by 100 to 200 each year. Aaron Powell So maybe they're just going back to like 2019 sizes?

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Aaron Powell Maybe. And then I've also heard that there's been difficulty with aid stations in some of the affected regions in the past, like getting supplies out there, staffing, et cetera. So I think there's it's complicated.

SPEAKER_07 43:34

Um there's definitely a sweet spot always for like race capacity for some of these races. Where it's like like, you know, like uh like the like pine to palm hundred uh RIP pine to palm, they could have had 500 runners like permitted for it. But like from a aid from an aid station crew logistics standpoint, no, you just don't do that because it would be a nightmare. Um I was interesting back to Bandera twenty nineteen.

SPEAKER_06 44:04

The race director, Chris McWaters, had to literally change the entire Oh, I think I ran that one course. Um at the Christian camp. Yeah. To the week before uh to um yeah, Camp Eagle. Like it was like a hundred miles away. It was not it was a low anywhere, it wasn't close to Hill Country State Park type deal. And I think he went about that in like a I mean it was it was a very real issue. I don't remember honestly if it was like horses or flooding.

SPEAKER_07 44:37

Flooding at the end of the main parking lot area was just underwater.

SPEAKER_06 44:42

Yeah. Um but for them to pull that off and like move that whole race in literally like a a week's time was a was a wild thing. And like I had chosen that race because the year before I'd gone to it and I like knew the course and I was like, this is good. I'm gonna get a golden ticket if I go back to the course I know and like try to hammer there. And like, yeah, we deal with adversity, we deal with things as they change. Like it's it's not always in the race's control. Um I do think in both the case of JFK and uh Snowdonia here, like transparency and like updates as it's going, even like we're trying to figure this out. Like we're gonna try to offer some options to runners. Um I was looking for that email from Chris McWaters to see if he actually offered credit because I think he did, but that's a different, different scale race. Uh Teos Trails puts on awesome events, but um yeah, it was another time like having a week to pivot is very different from having two months.

SPEAKER_07 45:46

But you think uh you think there'd be the same amount of like internet blowback if Snowdonia announced that the course changes added 2,000 more meters of climbing? That's what happened at UTMB'd Nice last year. It it they added the course got harder. They added vert, but uh but um no one complains about more vert, right? I think that's just kind of funny how it's like you can always give Vert, but as soon as you take it away, there's a mutiny. That is pretty yeah, true. Uh that Bandera year, the course got a lot harder.

SPEAKER_06 46:18

I I think you'll appreciate this. The one email I did find from uh January 9th, 2019, so the week after Bandana, Bandera, I got third at that race, so I did not get a golden ticket, was an email that I sent to Brian Powell inquiring that if he was going to potentially need any additional on-the-ground help at Western States because I failed at my goal of getting a golden ticket. I didn't have another opportunity to try with my job, and I really wanted to be there.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

That's I'm really good at tweeting. Wait, were you on the ground doing iron far coverage?

SPEAKER_06 46:49

No, Brian let me down soft.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

He was like, Thanks, Jeff, but I don't need little did he know the career that you would develop. That was the turning point. Okay, I'll I'll quickly summarize the JFK situation. Basically, for the since forever, JFK has been collecting hotel tax revenue from the county to help fund their police force and medical teams on race day. Last fall, the county informs JFK that revenue stream is no longer going to be available to you. You have to fund that budget shortfall elsewhere via race registration increases, whatever. So they know this information six months before race registration opens March 1st. That information is not disclosed on their website to the public. And they go ahead and open race registration, they get about a thousand entries, and then a week into registration being opened, this article breaks about that news. And the JFK race directing team is openly threatening to move the race from Washington County to Frederick County. Totally talk about 100% altering the course. Different course. So another example, albeit from an independent race, not a corporate race, of selling runners on a his a very historic course and then calling that entirely into question shortly after the fact.

SPEAKER_07 48:13

So it must be a very large sum of money where they couldn't add it to like race entry fees. It's $30,000. It's $30,000.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

I think I think it would which which they have a thousand entries so far, it would come out to like a $30 increase per runner if they wanted to fund it that way. They could have done it. Or they could eat the margin.

SPEAKER_06 48:35

A lot of companies did that with tariffs, right? Put 7% on the consumer and 8% on the company or whatnot. Um I think the the funny thing about this whole hotel tax revenue thing is like it was always planned to go away. It was like just to help a company get its foothold in the region. You know, this article that you shared, Finn, I was like reading through and it's like it's pretty clear. It was like, hey, this was like this is a gesture to help businesses get established, and like JFK is established. It seems like it helped them. Uh, you know, it's something that they've had at their back for as many years as they've been, you know, organizing the event or whatnot.

SPEAKER_07 49:16

Um so is this just like negligent like poor planning then of being like, oh, whoa, this is the year.

SPEAKER_06 49:26

Maybe it it it says here this is coming from uh the we said Washington County. Yeah. Um but it says HRT program is intended to provide temporary assistance to help events establish long-term sustainability and fiscal year 25 represented the final year of the HRT support for the race. So it's like this was a known It was known it was going to happen, um and it happened.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

So here's what I wonder. I wonder if JFK has ever commissioned a report that indicates their impact on tourism to the region. I wonder if they know the number that they basically bring in each year on the event, and they're using that as a bargaining chip. And it's like, you're asking, like we we have like we've done this, like here's the ROI of this event to the county, and we are so powerful and established, we're gonna basically threaten to go. And I wonder if they expect the county to be like, okay, never mind. Like we'll we'll cave. It's a bluff. It's a Frederick County bluff.

SPEAKER_06 50:31

Yeah. Whereas, you know, yeah, the and the county's like, you weren't so damn good. They're their their response is like, we really appreciate everything you've done. And like we outlined this very clearly, and this is like what we had budgeted for.

SPEAKER_07 50:47

So And there's no um there's been no like, hey, person who registered for JFK, we might move the course to something completely different. If you want a refund, we'll give you a refund. Or is it with kind of like Snowden, where they have no intention of uh giving any money back to its registrants?

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Aaron Powell Well, yeah, the and then the JFK policy on the website is no refunds, no deferrals.

SPEAKER_07 51:11

Well, yeah, they wouldn't even give like a pregnancy deferral last year. No. I mean, there was like a whole thing about that.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

So this this seems more egregious than Snowdia to me.

SPEAKER_06 51:22

I mean, that JFK course has been around for You know what's funny in all of our conversation around like times versus competition, JFK is just one of the course that like I actually think time is more relevant. Talk to me about like the courses. Give me give me your top three courses where you're like time's relevant. JFK and Western states are there.

SPEAKER_07 51:43

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that's like JFK has very much been a I mean it's competitive, but it's been a time trial type course as well. Um I mean i uh it's largely a road race. Still an ultra marathon, but um yeah, that's a that would be a pretty big bummer. Like I would be bummed because I I don't know what a lot of the reasons for why someone would sign up for JFK for me, it would be to see how I can do on that course because it's been around for so long and it's got like such a you know historied list of you know finishers where I'd wonder course. That aside, it's just more like I want to see where I, you know, how I could do on that one. But then if they were like, you're moving it, we're moving to somewhere else. I'm like, I already don't know where in America this is because I live in southern Oregon. You move it somewhere else. I'm like, what did I even go there for? Come on now.

SPEAKER_06 52:44

So we uh when we do the crowdfunding event for um the Backyard Ultra, we can just tack on it. Do you also want to contribute to the JFK $30,000 fund to keep it in Washington County?

SPEAKER_07 52:59

Yeah. Dude, knowing Jamil Airvipa Mountain Outposts, just like snap of the fingers, it's taken care of. Look at that. JFK prevented presented by Aravipa running. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

This episode of the show is also brought to you by Momentous. When people talk about energy, recovery, and performance, they usually jump straight to, you know, stuff like training load, protein intake, whatever supplement that they're stacking next. I do that all the time. But one of the most overlooked pieces, and honestly, one of the most foundational is gut health. If your gut isn't dialed, everything else struggles to work the way it should. Energy gets spiky, recovery feels inconsistent, digestion's off. Suddenly you're wondering, you know, why all the quote unquote right things aren't clicking. This is where Momentous Fiber Plus comes in. What I like about Fiber Plus, it's not just add more fiber and hope for the best. It is a complete three-in-one formula, soluble fiber, insoluble fiber, and a prebiotic resistant starch designed to actually support gut health end-to-end. Better digestion, steadier energy, fewer crashes throughout the day. And, you know, like everything Momentous makes, it is science first, clean, minimal ingredients, no artificial junk, and independently certified for sport. If it doesn't meet their standard, it doesn't ship. Simple as that. Right now, Momentous is offering single track listeners up to 35% off your first order. Head to liveMomentous.com and use promo code single track. That is livemomentous.com. Promo code single track. Singletrack is also brought to you by Kodiak Cakes. They're back. Funny enough, I was just reflecting on this recently. I believe they are one of the OG partners of the show dating back to 2022. We have worked on and off together through the years. Well, we are working together again for the next 12 months, and I am stoked about it. They are going to be the official breakfast partner. What more to say? I use this stuff on a daily basis. Specifically, their uh peak oatmeal packets, great flavors. I am a fan of the banana nut uh, especially. It's my go-to. I have it in the car, ready for me post-run. It's got 20 grams of protein per serving, all legit ingredients, whole grains, no GMOs. Go check it out, Kodiak Cakes.com. Okay, so we have a new segment. It's called Overreaction, Underreaction. I'm gonna read a statement, uh, starting with you, Brett, and then we'll ultra. So uh Brett, you first on this one, Jeff, you first on the next one. But overreaction, underreaction, first one here. Molly Seidel is immediately a 2026 Western States podium contender. Brett.

SPEAKER_07 55:28

I mean, I furiously typed on my keyboard, no. Underreaction. So is that is I I don't understand overreaction, underreaction. Well, think over under. The statement is quality of under.

SPEAKER_06 55:44

Are you are you saying totally like I'm I'm over on that or I'm under on that?

SPEAKER_00 55:48

No, I'm under. Underreaction is like, of course. Like I I think so. Oh, okay. See, and oh an overreaction is like, oh, that's crazy. Like, come on now.

SPEAKER_07 55:58

Okay. I wrote overreaction, being like, nah, no. She's not immediately a 2026 Western States podium contender because she got fourth in a race when the three in front of her are also running Western states.

SPEAKER_06 56:16

Have the three in front of her ever won footlockers or NCAAs or gotten an Olympic medal?

SPEAKER_07 56:24

No. But some of them have done some pretty good things in the trails. For sure.

SPEAKER_06 56:31

I again I know I stand by like I I think this like uh there's like, oh Molly's like new to the trails, like, no, especially in like the what is the value of Molly Seidel? And I'm like, well, you need to ask, like, what is the value of someone who's been the best in the world at every level of their career?

SPEAKER_07 56:49

Yeah. I also wrote, I think she's in the conversation for the podium, but I don't think she's a lock.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 56:56

Yeah. Like, I think her range, like, you know, for someone uh, you know, someone like we'll use like Abby Hall, for example. I think like good day, bad day are like pretty small together. Molly's like good day and bad day are really far apart right now.

unknown 57:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 57:16

Like just from a you know, an experience level. But it's like could Molly win Western states? Absolutely. Could Molly stop at the first aid station? Could happen too.

SPEAKER_06 57:31

Yeah, I think I think it's uh I'm in agreement with Brett on this one. Um in general, I think Molly has a really, really good scaffolding and support system around her, and uh it's cool to see um how how she fared at Black Canyon. I think Molly Sidel will be a future Western States champion. Um I don't think that the 2026 Western States is is a lock by any means.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

Okay. I still think her micro fade at Black Canyon was the most impressive thing I saw all day.

SPEAKER_07 58:07

It was very good. I also agree with that, and that's what keeps her in the conversation for the podium for me. But not not a lock, because you you can't make you can't make that mistake 25 miles into western states because it's a hundred miles and not sixty.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Next up, if Jen Lichter wins Western states this year, she is immediately in the highest echelon of female ultrarunners in our sport. Jeff.

SPEAKER_06 58:38

Yeah, I'm I agree with that. I think that's uh I think the reason is like she's already incredibly dominant at the 50k and under distance for her to be able to spread that dominance to the 100k and then in sequence to the 100 mile, um not dissimilar to Hayden, not dissimilar to like Francesco in some ways. You know, I we haven't seen him run the hundred mile yet, but like I would I would put her immediately in that upper echelon. Um I don't far too early. I don't think it's gonna happen, but I also like I'm not one to bet against Jen. Like she was my lock pick for Black Canyon for sure.

SPEAKER_07 59:23

Um yeah, I I agree, Jeff, with what you said. Um a question that I had. So are we talking like it was like current day like world trail dominance rankings? Like current, current, okay. Yeah, I agree. If we were talking like if they all retired at the end of this year, where do they rank? You know, I think like that's different. Um but if if if Jen wins Western States this year, uh like currently, then she gets thrown straight into that echelon 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Brett, right back to you. Crowdfunded prize person mounts will surpass event-sponsored person mounts at major trail races by 2028.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:13

I think I think, well, for the mountain out for the Aero Vipa, for the Air Vipa races, I think you're right. It has to. It has to. Um, but I hope they don't. And here's why. I hope they become more of a mutual thing. So um for Black Canyon, I forget what the amount was, but Aero Vipa matched the crowdfunded amount up to a certain dollar point.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:37

I would love to set up to $5,000 if 16,000 were raised.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:41

Yeah, so I would love to see like Aero Vipa match the first $5,000, Ultra match the next $5,000 because they have Terra Dower racing. And they're like, yeah, we'll match the next five because we want to and like it'll get shown on the the ticker on the live stream too, that like Hoka or like you know, Ultras matching this. Hoka matches the next five, Solomon matches next five. Like, I want to see brands pony up the same amount that uh, you know, fans of the sport are at least one to one.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:11

A bold move for ACG to just pop in there for the Hoka race and drop 15k or something like that.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:18

Yeah, especially with like five minutes to go, you can still do that. ACG is just like, yeah, we'll match it.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:25

Um I do I think there's some like curiousness of like, all right, were there any unsponsored runners in the top on the podium? Jordan Bramblett. He wasn't on the podium. Molly Sidel.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

No, but he took a ticket. He took a ticket. And Molly Cyberdale, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:40

Molly's a good example, right? If like Satisfy just put 10K in there, like hinting of like, you know, we like, you know, the the one unsponsored athlete, like we're keen on on working with her. Um it's like kind of showing showing some cards there. Um the like for Western states, that's like what's it gonna that's a guarantee, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:02:04

Like is this gonna happen at Western States? The crowd.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:07

I hope it happens at Western States. I like I really do hope it happens at Western States.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:10

What do you think the winner takes home? What's your number? Or way too early number. What do you what does the winner take home at Western States?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

So what was the live stream viewership last year? Did it eclipse a million? Can you check on YouTube really quick? Like for day one stream? For day one stream, because that'll help with my multiplier. But I I believe that the live stream is going to conservatively 2x this year. So addressable market, and if we compare it against the stream at Black Canyon to a multiplier there, I mean if Black Canyon got 17,000 off of a understanding like you had to pay attention to the live stream to understand that this was going on.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:48

So there has been as much talk about this since it happened that like more people are aware of it. I think like going forward on live streams, be that Cocodona, be that Western states, be that other races, I think more people are going to be aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

And yeah, I told Jamil, I told Jamil, I was like, you can actually track like when AJW and Chris Warden were talking about it in those first two hours, the the pot was growing so fast. And then it kind of the talk about it tapered off and the pot kind of tapered. So I think if Dylan and Corinne can keep talking about it from start to finish at intervals, it'll really go.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:20

I think Western States had about 5x the viewers of Black Canyon. Okay.

unknown 1:03:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:25

I was I was gonna say ballpark. I think the winner from Western States walks with uh 12k from the crowdfunded purse, but that depends on how they want to choose that purse because I would argue that Western states should trickle down to five, or maybe should it trickle down to 10 to 10. Like 10 would be cool. Ninth place gets $100, 10th place just gets an invite back.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:47

They get the entry paid.

unknown 1:03:49

No.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:49

Wait, do top 10, do you have to pay for that? Yeah. Yeah. If you get an invite back to next year, you have to pay for it. It's not paid for. Not that I have experience, but yes. Okay, so experience. Okay, so that's what it should be. Tenths should at least get their entry paid.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:05

Is in form of like an ultra sign-up gift card. Yeah. Not cash. They gotta take it. Um oh shoot, I lost my notes. Um I think it's gonna be bigger. I think where these crowdfunded price purse, I think where it's gonna really blow up and show off is gonna be a Cocodona this year. Like, we're talking like you know, 60 hours before the winner comes in.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:31

It's a good question. Because like there's a way, there's a world in which Cocodona ends up being the biggest prize purse of the year of any event, and it's like strictly crowdfunded.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:43

I think the winner, maybe this is my my take. I think the winner of Cocodona's taking home 30 G's. Love it. So more. Yeah. I think I think winner of Cocodon's taking home 30 grand. Well, but I could also see the winner of Western City taking home that much as well. Okay. Like I could see it being in that $20,000 to $30,000 range. Which that would be oh man, that would be something.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Throwing this one to you, Jeff, first. In his age 38, I believe 20th season of ultra running, can Killian Journey still win both Western States and UTMB in the same season?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:21

No doubt, dog. I've been saying this all year. I think Killian and Jim both good. Like, I I don't even think it's uh like if I think it's a win. And I know Killian's already done it, I think he'll do it again. Um I think for him, I think for him it's gonna be harder to win Western States.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

Okay. But how about this? Okay, let's let's assume Killian wins Western. He and if he wins UTMB but beats like a fresh Penn Demon or a fresh gym, do those two guys just have to retire from the sport? No, but like it's just Killian. Killian just got killing.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:53

Killian got stronger from his states of elevation. Like, you know, the

SPEAKER_08 1:06:00

Bless that man. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:02

Bless that man for like being able to contribute himself wholeheartedly to this pursuit in excellence. And like I love being a spectator to it and getting to experience it. If Killian wins Western States, there's no doubt in my mind he can re like recover and win UTMB. Yeah. And if he wants to do the all-time triple, recover and win grand reunion. Like, you know. The there there are runners who I think uh they know what it takes to win both of those events. And that's why I put specifically Jim and Killian in this boat. Like they know what both races calls for. I actually think Jim could probably win Western States, you know, quote unquote easier than anyone else. Um if he's if he's smart about it. And then, you know, I think UTMB has proven to be more of a mammoth for him than states. Yeah. But I agree. This is my prediction for the year that the men's winner is going to win both. And I think that's I stand by it.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:02

I like that. And I was just, I'm continually like, because there's been a couple like blogs that Killian has come out with, you know, talking about Western states. And I'm amazed at how much like sleep he seems to have lost about western states last year, and how fired up he is to come back and be like, oh yeah, like I I you know, he was sick, he did he made some mistakes. He's like, Oh, I got some things to iron out. Like, I'm like, and I want to fix that. And I want, you know, 2026 to be the year of racing. It's like, oh man, like 2025, like woke up the beast of Killian, being like, oh, dude.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:46

This is not at all like Jeff McGavro closed even spread. We were with Killian with 90 at 90 miles with 10 miles to go, and Killian beat Jeff by 11 minutes. Killian closed that race so hard. Yeah. And I think he like thought that people were gonna come back to him. And you know, he and Jeff had been battling for 60 kilometers. So like it wasn't like Jeff came back to him. Like we we started at Greengate, you know, the four of us kind of all together. Um so I I really thought he was gonna, or I think he thought he was gonna catch Chris or Caleb.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:23

And yeah, he just made a tactical error early on, and I'm sure he's looking back on it, just being like, Yep, I should have won that race. I should have gone earlier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:34

Now I have to go back and do it again, and then win Sierras and all, and then win UTMB. I I had this reaction in 2022. Killian had his best season ever. Uh, I'm pretty sure it was 2022. And I was like, this is so crazy that like, you know, 11 years after he wins Western States, he has his best season ever. And then every year since I've been like, actually, nothing's crazy. I expect Killian to have his best season ever next season.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

He will forever be one of one. Yeah. One comment from me. Uh, if you look back at one of the time, so when he won the double in 2011, Western and UTMB, he from what I can tell in UTMB and Ultra Saturn raced at least nine times that year. In 26, he's only racing three times. Sears and all along with Western UTMB. So that's interesting, like racing at least the 66% less or three times less. He doesn't he doesn't need Rustbusters anymore. No.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:35

I actually I wouldn't be surprised if he does the VK at Broken Arrow. Okay. Again. Except I would yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he throws throws like a a VK in going into Western states.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:48

But I would just in this era where some pros are specializing, I just think it would be a really tough pill to swallow if someone beats you fresh on the second half of their double.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:00

That's tough. Yeah, I mean, you're just trying to, you know, there's just you're just making excuses at that point, being like, oh, you gotta be fresh for this, you know, you're this type of athlete, that it's like Killian running's running, you know?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:16

If there were anyone that had the years and accumulative hours of training log that Killian had, I feel like they could be bummed about that. But there isn't.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:29

Yeah. Like they're like Yeah, no one's to the stage of career that Killian's at and saying that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Yeah. But isn't isn't that isn't that much again, we use the term like mileage and like isn't that many minutes played or mileage typically Eric can be a liability?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:48

It can be, but I do think experience is like the greatest. That's that's why I think Molly Sidel will win Western States. I don't think it'll be this year. I think it's experience when it comes to these hundred mile races is most everything. And like once you get a grip of it and like understand a little bit more, things come more naturally. You know, it it takes winning 3,500s for Jeff Browning to realize he can come back from being like five hours down and actually like respond and you know, come back to podium or whatever it is. You know, like these these phenomenal like back to life uh experiences we've seen these like really tenored uh hundred mile runners have is like because they know it. They're like our bodies are so much more capable than we think they are, it's gonna respond, things will be all right. I just need to like embrace the suck for the next couple hours. Okay. I don't know. That's like and I hear you. Like, if you know, for the folks focusing on UTMB, if Killian comes back from winning Western states and beats them at UTMB, like I just think it it should be inspiring.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:57

And if someone fresh beats Killian at UTMB for the win, I will not ever utter, oh well Killian was tired because he ran Western States. Like, if someone beats Killian at UTMB this year, after Killian wins Western States, it's a fair fight. He is recovered. Yep. Agreed. Yeah. And if anyone else, and if anyone out there says that in the comments, I'll fight them with my keyboard.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:30

I want it to happen.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:30

I'm manifesting it. Yeah. Yeah, you've seen that uh uh what's the movie where they curve the bullets? Um The Matrix. Wanted? No. Is it called Wanted? Is that no Angelina Jolie's in it and um Morgan Freeman's in it? Anyways, at the very beginning of the movie, the dude just like slaps his boss with a keyboard. That was all I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

Seems like the movie you're talking about. Wanted. That's what I said. Okay, wanted. Wanted. Yeah. That's a good movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:11

Okay. All right, Brett, coming back to you here. All right. Golden overreaction, underreaction. This is our last one, by the way. Golden ticket races are now harder to win than western states. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:24

Okay. There's there's too much, there's there's still more pressure at Western states to win and perform. And like you still get the people who win the golden ticket races not winning Western states.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:41

I I think the like Finn, last year Abby did not win a golden ticket race, but she won Western States, right? My my far too early pick to win Western States this year on the women's side is Anne Flower. She did not win at Black Canyon. But Abby and Ann are like really well suited for the Western States course. Are they better suited for that course than Black Canyon? Like, I would argue yes. Uh, I don't think that golden tickets or golden ticket races are harder to win than Western states. I would actually still go ahead and say against popular opinion, it's easier to get a golden ticket than it is to get a returning top ten to Western states.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:25

I think that's a great take. And like I it maybe it's year to year, but like maybe we should ask a lot of the people who've won golden ticket races.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:37

Was it easier winning and win and won Western states?

SPEAKER_07 1:14:40

How many people have won a golden ticket race and western states? Which one was harder to win? Yeah, it's it's not that many people.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:46

And and I I go back to like, right, Tom Evans was second at Black Canyon, won Western states. That like the Western States is gonna suit some runners better than others.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:01

Um I'm psyched to see Will Murray because I think Will Murray can win golden ticket races, and I think he could win Western States. Like, you know, did Killian, you know, I guess he's he's coming back from a top ten, but like yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:14

The I think a lot of a lot of these like top-tier pros that didn't win bla uh, you know, a a golden ticket race, but then won Western states were also like assuming they were gonna get a ticket, and then the the A goal for the whole training block was Western States. So like I I feel like like Tom was fitter at Western States than he was at Black Canyon. Um and also Western States probably suits him as a course better than Black Canyon, so it's like a compounding level of things, but uh I still think it's harder to win Western States, um, even courses aside, just the pressure.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:02

This was uh this this prompt was generated in our text thread yesterday. Basically, it's it's it's it's it's a it's a matchup wish list, either anticipated, like it's on paper already for this year, and you're looking forward to just watching it as a as fan as a fan of the sport, or like if you could create a matchup based on active pro old runners out there, like so you can go in either directions. Brett, who's your idealized matchup for 26?

SPEAKER_07 1:16:33

I mean, I would say it's it it's a it exists, um and it's it's Katie versus Courtney at Hard Rock. Like that's been one that I've thought about for ever since the first year I commentated at Hard Rock. Um, because like I've gotten to see Courtney win it in person, and I've gotten to see Katie win it in person. And you know, them like flip-flopping course records, they're both still running really well. It's like that sort of and and then they both end up on the star list. It's like, man, that sort of opportunity just doesn't happen very often. So that's like that's one of the really big ones.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:18

Um I like it. Yeah. I really wish I we'd gotten to see Jen Lichter and Katie at Worlds in the 50 mile. I think that would have been really good. I think that would have been so sweet. Katie had an incredibly dominant performance, but I think we all we all felt like Jen was very strong uh going into that one and is still very strong. Bum da bum she missed that. Um yeah, I I think Katie at Western States with this year's field and Ann Flower in that race and Jen Lichter in that race, and uh like I I think it would be a better matchup. I think we all waited uh and have been waiting for the Katie Courtney rematch. Um and like Courtney brews me wrong and she'll continue to prove me wrong. But like I'll say, like I I think right now I I'm more confident in Katie winning hard rock than uh Katie lining up to that Western States field and having having a easy win.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:19

Finn, what course would you like to see Katie and Courtney race against each other on the most?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:28

That's a fantastic question. I think probably hard rock.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:32

Yeah, hard rock for those two.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

Yeah, I think I think I think I think it's the best meeting place to like equalize things at the respective stages of their careers.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:41

I like I like the I like the hard rock course as a matchup. It also feels um like it almost feels like there's more spotlight on it because it's like I mean like Tara Dower is definitely a big wild card in that field as well.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:57

But kind of because it's like a one-on-one race.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:59

Yeah, it's that Charlie Lawrence effect sort of thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:05

Um the the elevation factor at Hard Rock is like, I just know talking to Kenny and German last year, you know, the altitude like was super hard to adjust to. Uh and Courtney just lives at that altitude. So um, you know, that might be uh lending a favor in in her direction there. And you know, I I think if you were to look at Western States, Grand Raid, UTMB, and Hard Rock, like is Hard Rock the the race where it'll be closest? I think the answer is yeah. I think that's where like they're maybe the most even.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:42

Okay. This one, I feel like this matchup doesn't get talked up enough. Or maybe it doesn't. I'm not paying attention, but I want to see Katie and Ruth. And I want to see a m a rematch at UTMB. So obviously Katie took the win there in 24, beat Ruth. I think it was like 35, 40 minutes. Uh, if you go way back in their careers, I think Ruth has Katie at Zagama, and I think it was Tomplier maybe. But I I don't know. I I feel like they're yeah, I don't know what you guys think, but that matchup in that matchup almost intrigues me more right now than Katie versus Courtney.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:17

That's I mean, that is a great one because you know that year Katie was I think what was it, her knee was starting to go on that final descent, and Ruth went out way too conservative and was just raging the second half, especially the last 50k. Um, so it's like I'm sure Ruth wanted to do over there, and then when she got it, she won. Um yeah, that that would be a very dynamic matchup as well, especially because like it seems like like Ruth's really finding the like the long mountain legs right now.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:50

Yeah. I think on the uh on the men's side, I think seeing a showdown between Francesco, Killian, and Jim at Western States would be like fascinating. And last year's Western States was amazing. I really don't want anyone to try to do this whole unbreakable two thing again and and jinx it. But uh the like the men's field is shaping up to be incredibly strong, and that's runners like Hans Troyer proving how like mature they've gotten and how much stronger he is. Um you know, if Francesco didn't dislocate his shoulder, hurt himself uh at Black Canyon, like does he actually beat Hans? Like, yeah, maybe hard saying. Like these are the what-ifs of uh the early days of long-run archives, but yeah, Francesco and Jim and Killian all at Western States would be a real treat. Um throw throw a couple other guys in there, like Hayden and Hans and Jeff McGavro and Will Murray.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:03

Will Murray? Yeah, dude. Oh man. As an aside, uh, I highly recommend everyone go watch Francesco's latest vlog on his YouTube channel, which provides a really interesting backstory on just how he trains, philosophy, all that stuff. One of the takeaways, he's had the same coach since the Italian equivalent of high school.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:21

That's wild to have someone be able to like successfully coach you through so many different events.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:28

It's almost 20 years.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:32

And then training for 100 miles.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:34

Yeah. And and the coach, I mean, one of the there's many quotes in the vlog, but one of the uh comments that the coach has is like, Francesco's VO2 Max is 70. He has uh basically not an elite VO2 Max, but he is elite at using like the highest fraction of it possible.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:51

That's how I knew it was his coach for a long time, because his coach was just like, Oh yeah, on paper he's not very good. But he's very good.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

Totally. But yeah, he's like but basically the coach like Francesco outperforms people that are better than him because he is a more strategic worker, you know? Yeah. Really cool. That's super cool. So I feel like we have time either for a mystery topic, a content find. I don't know, what do you guys want to do?

SPEAKER_07 1:23:22

I got a I guess as a content finding a mystery or slash best thing I found on the internet this week. And it was because, Finn, it was because you ran the LA Marathon that I got to watch this. So I found on, you know, like NBC four, NBC five, whatever the LA news station was, they were putting on um the LA Marathon, and it was available for free to watch on the LA Marathon website, which was awesome. So I just started watching the race. I mean, I didn't see I didn't see you. I was watching your tracker, but then I was like, well, I might as well just watch the marathon since it's here. And the men's finish was insane. Um, I forget the name of the guy who ended up getting second, but he was off the front early. And I think at halfway he was like four minutes up. Because other thing that the LA Marathon did that was really cool. So they staggered the men's and women's starts by a certain amount of time. I forget exactly what it was, but it was like staggered. It was well, it was staggered. Yeah, it was deep. I don't know if it was the differentials in the course records or what, but it was staggered in a way where it gave equal opportunity for the first person to cross the finish line, man or woman got an extra $10,000 bonus. So it insid it said it incentivized going out like pretty recklessly. And on the women's and the men's side, one person from each field did that. And it made for these like massive fades. And um on the men's side, the the the guy who was leading all day, he got outleaned at the finish line and he lost by 0.1 to Nathan Martin. But then right after that, a video on Instagram started going viral because he, the the lead male with like 200 meters to go, follows the lead cars who were pulling off to the side of the course because they were clearing room because you can like see the finish line. Yep. He follows them and he goes to the other side of the barriers for like, you know, a couple seconds. Couple seconds, just enough for everyone to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, you got to go on this side. So he stops and turns around, and then he gets out-leaned. And it was like, then it, you know, all the comments are like, where's the crowd control? What's going on? Like, how did this happen? Because there was also a fan running next to him with like a Kenyan flag that maybe distracted him that caused him to go that way. I I don't know about that, but all the comments are like, what the hell's going on here? I I wonder if he's getting outleaned either way.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:00

He must have, I I I suspect because he looked pretty out of it at the finish. I wonder if he was on the ground. On the ground for a while. And I wonder if like that is a I think it's a different situation than the US half marathon champs, where like that was so egregious with what the the race uh camera officials and whatnot did. But this was more like, I mean, the cam the the car typically does that in all marathons, right? That are televised where like they pull off last minutes. So like as a runner, that's your obligation to know that. And I think he must have just been so in the pain cave, so you know. I think he was that spent that he just made a he made an error. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:35

It did seem like the flag didn't help. Definitely didn't help. The woman with the flag like blocked his vision enough to not see the shoot in front of him and to follow the car.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:46

But yeah. Yeah, but it was just oh man, so dramatic. That entire finish. I was like watching it. The commentators had no idea that Nathan was coming up on him because he was so far back, even with 200 meters to go. Um, but if anyone just goes on YouTube and just types an LA marathon finish, like that's what's going to come up now. And I I would go watch it because it's just nuts. But where I'm going with this was that the LA Marathon in the last few years, from a competitive standpoint, has increased quite dramatically. Like the elite fields have gotten quite good. Um, but there hasn't been like quite the crowd control in the you know, final mile or whatever uh that some of the bigger like marathon majors have. And that just got me thinking like, do you ever get nervous watching like UTMB and the amount of fans that are like climbing or descending with some of the runners towards the finish? And it's like Oh yeah. La flagier for sure. Like how like it's only a matter of time before someone really gets in the way and like, you know, makes someone trip at like mile 95 or something and screw something up. But it's like, where are we with having like More crowd control in some of these sections of races, which there's pros and cons to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:06

We're gonna see it this year at U Timby, but you're gonna be blown away. Like at Valarcine, at La Flagre. It's uh you're mobbed. It's crazy. Like these runners, I'm su I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. This is a great example. That there's not like barriers. Yeah. So that's a good one.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:26

Brent, have you been to UTMB before?

SPEAKER_07 1:28:30

This will be my first time.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:31

Okay. I was just I was trying to understand the context with which Finn Finn was saying that. Um yeah, Gorge Dillon Notre Dame at UTMB is like it's truly horrifying as a runner or spectator. Um I think some people might also describe it as like really special and empowering and uplifting.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:49

I've seen the videos and I'm like, this looks amazing. But at the same time, right back to you know, hazing in college. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:55

Um yeah. Well, stop talking about traumas. It's how I'm gonna be good at backyard ultras. Come on, gotta make the Olympics.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:10

Um was that the was that the question of like when do you find the second time? Because I was trying to think of acute examples of when that has happened.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:23

Yeah, like I don't know, like I remember um the last time Courtney won UTMB, like when she was going up the last climb and descending the final descent, there was like it looked like straight out of forest gum where there was like 300 people running with her. Um because like at that, like, you know, you can keep up with an ultra runner at the end of UTMB. But it was like I was just sitting there watching the live stream being like, dude, if some idiot isn't paying attention and like knocks one of Courtney's feet, I'm gonna be so because she was like starting to blow up too. I was like, I can't believe there aren't officials being like, do not run with the runners.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:08

I also kind of remember there being some questioning of Jarma Granger was dressed in like a American flag like suit at world championships, like out on the course cheering and stuff. And of like, is he like like there because there are strict rules around uh people on course and and like interference and stuff at worlds of like is Jarma like trying to sabotage the US by dressing in red, white, and blue like star pasting? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:41

I don't think that's ever his intent. Um but I'm gonna I'm gonna end us on this. This is uh a little bit of breaking news. It happened, I think, on Instagram a few days ago, but Sally McCrae announced that she is leaving Nike and is actively courting new sponsors, I'm guessing like a new shoe deal, and she's in the process of trialing shoes. This is wild because I was this is an aside a little bit, but I was on a work trip to San Francisco last fall, and I went, I stopped in an SF running company, and at SF Run Co. they have a poster of the 2014 Nike Trail team. And I remember being there at the store looking at it and being like, that is amazing, and commenting that like of all the people, Zach Miller, Tim Tollefson, Vargo, Laney, Gelfi, go down the list. The only person left 12 years on was Sally. And she was the last person to leave like that hallmark team in our sport. So I don't know if there's a question or a comment there. It's over. It's over. That era is officially bookended like today.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:43

I hadn't thought about that part until you just said that. That's wow. Now, now that's kind of a big deal. Because I was looking at it, I was looking at it in terms of like today, and I'm like, you know, Sally's so good at the what she does and like the lane that she's carved out in this sport that I I wouldn't be surprised if it was her decision to part ways with Nike and not that they like couldn't come to an agreement or something like that. Like, I think she could have stayed with Nike for however long she wanted, and she would still be a great brand ambassador for Nike and be able to do great things with them. I also believe that Sally could go run for another brand or or not and just be independent and have full freedom to do anything she wants. Um I saw her most recent Instagram post, she said like 13 shoe brands has already reached out to her. Um so I feel like she's got the uh the momentum right now. But um wow, yeah. End of the uh the Pat Werhane money ball Nike trail era.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:00

I I will always think of Sally as like in a yellow Nike tank top. Um I don't even know if their picture is real, it's just in my mind of like that's that's Sally McCrae. Um the like what's next? Like Sally's one of the fan favorites where like not that not that anyone can just like start a shoe company or start an apparel company, but like Sally kind of could pull it off, um be that a apparel company, or like wanting to like really partner with a brand in like an equity uh like a full line of too strong. Oh, for sure. 100%. Um, I mean she is like, yeah, she's beloved and has a has a huge reach. I think like uh seeing seeing Killian do that from Solomon, like little different in terms of his chops with being pretty pretty product and performance focused and whatnot. But uh, you know, brands are built in so many ways on social capital. And Sally has that coming out of her ears. Yeah, this will be a fun one to follow. Yeah, definitely. It it's also like the Jeff Browning, um, you know, landing at Keen and like getting to shape the culture of that brand. Um, like Sally could very well land at a brand and get to be kind of that uh that like um mentor figure and have more of an impact, have more of a shape.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:36

So guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much. And yeah, it was a six week ish hiatus of the Long Run Archives, but we're back. Thanks, Brett. Thanks, Jeff.