Kilian Korth | 2026 Cocodona 250 Post-Race Interview

Kilian Korth returns to the show to recap his men's race course record victory at the 2026 Cocodona 250.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Killian Korth, it is great to have you back on the Single Track Podcast. How are you doing this Monday morning?

SPEAKER_00 0:07

It's good to be back. I'm doing well. I uh did a little workout in the gym this morning and went took my dog for a walk. That last night was the first night since the race that I've been home, so good to be sleeping in my own bed. But uh yeah, doing well.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

You're already back in the gym.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, it was very minimal. I mean, air squats, push-ups, pull-ups, planks, and then I'm attempting to get my right glute to start working again. So some like banded sidesteps and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Is it pretty person like is it kind of to the person how quickly post-race in this multi-day scene you get back into activity, or do you feel pretty strongly that, you know, like there is a right way to think about the post-race?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

It's probably pretty personal. And I I would imagine that it'll have a lot to do with what other stresses that individual has in their life. I don't have another job, so it's not like I have to go be somewhere for big chunks of the day. So for me, I need mentally to be able to do something. And then two, I I do think that your recovery is my recovery is actually sped up by the fact that I'm purposefully getting a little bit of training stimulus in the like least impactful, most helpful way possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah. Do you feel like you have a little bit more runway in this post-Cocodon recovery compared to last year, where it's like, I mean, you run Tahoe and then month and a half later, I think you're on the Bigfoot start line? I guess you have URA coming up. You have U-Ray coming up, which is not nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I I do have the Ura 100 coming up. And honestly, it's like if my right leg, I'm I have a PT appointment this Friday, so I'll hopefully know a little bit more about my right leg, which is still definitely still bugging me to a significant degree. And if something is really messed up with that and I end up having to skip your A, I'll be sad about that. But Tor is, you know, the other A goal for the year. So I do feel I don't feel nearly as stressed as last year, especially because even if I do your Ray, Uray is still it. I'm not saying it's just 100. That is not the actual way to phrase it, but it's like I'm not gonna sleep during that race. And so there is something approaching half the distance and trying to be done in around a day that's just like, okay, I have I have a little bit of time before I'm gonna go to the place where I was at the end of Kokadona again, if that makes sense. But you asking that question, it has made me Koka Dona has made me appreciate the Triple Crown so much more because I I just think the amount of good fortune that went into me having three nearly perfect 200s is sort of amazing. Like Kokadona was, I was extremely prepared, ready for it, more experienced, and it was so far from perfect as to make me happier with how it went, given that it was so far from perfect, if that makes sense. But the triple crown races last year, it's like they actually were pretty much perfect, like really no real unforeseeable issues. So that's kind of unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I mean, there's we and I we have so much to talk about. I was telling you offline very briefly that like I have a laundry list of questions. I promise to the audience we will get to the fact that we were very, very wrong in our preview. And that is one of many things. But I think the first, I mean, you bring up the triple crown, and now that you've had the experience of this this year's Coca-Dona, which I think we both agree, the most competitive 200 on American soil, but also a really impressive triple crown last year, won all three races, course record, triple crown record, et cetera. Um, did were there in any of those races, Tahoe, Bigfoot, Moab, uh, did you have to go to the same places mentally, physically, spiritually that you had to go to at this year's Cocodona to get it done? Or were they relatively pedestrian?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Definitely not. I I would say the closest would be Bigfoot, but Bigfoot is so much more my race from what I like to do, what I I it tend to be good at, that I feel like like Bigfoot, most of the time I was having fun. When Brody was catching me, it was an injection of energy rather than an injection of fear and forcing me to go to a place that I didn't even know existed. Whereas when Cody was catching me at the end, I mean, Alyssa Clark happened to be running with me uh at the end, doing filming for the live stream, and she saw me and heard me make noises that were like brought from the depths of hell. Like I was so deep in some sort of like the pain cave almost doesn't begin to describe it. It was just like I didn't even know that such a place existed. I didn't know I had the ability to go there. So, like, no chance in any of the triple crown races did I even come close to that. And I I don't know if that's partly due to the specific circumstances with my leg going wrong, Cody catching me, like all of those things, or if it's just like my years of failing at Coca-Dona resulted in me having that like extra fire and and ability to go there. But it was it was unbelievably uncomfortable. And yet, like now I look back on it as somehow sublime. But it was, it was uh like indescribably painful.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I was going to, I and it sounds like you have the I was just gonna ask you if you in retrospect knew if you had sort of that capacity of will, especially from what I could observe Schneebly Hill onward, where at least for the last 65-ish miles of the race, um, something was clearly wrong with like we heard on the live stream that you had pain radiating down your hip. And I I'm not a medical person, but I'm like, is that like a nerve impingement? Like, that's serious. So um, but it sounds like this was you, you, you sh you, you learned something new about yourself, like mental strength-wise.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, absolutely. And I I've always thought of myself as it in in some, and I think everyone has the an image of themselves. So take this as for what you will. But I've always thought of myself as overcoming physical deficiencies with mental toughness. And even the like that's the thing that I most like about myself. It's like I even didn't know that this place existed. And so, yeah, like it was having the ability to just push through the kind of pain that I was in is uh is not something that I I want to do for every race, but it's good to know that it's there.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, okay. Um well, look, I I have to I have to introduce you here. Men's champion, new men's course record holder, second overall at the 2026 Kokodona 250, 5728-36. I should also say that we did a now infamous Kokodona preview episode, myself, Lee Gingling, Brett Hornick. None of us picked you to win. None of us even picked you for the podium. Um but look, it was a huge miss and all the respect in the world for your race out there. You are a champion, no doubt. I think what I was looking for coming into this race was okay, like there was success at other multi-day races. How do you fare uh at sort of the pinnacle one in our sport, especially after three unlucky years in a lot of ways? Um, and you proved us wrong. And um, dude, you're a champion. I and I think moving forward, uh, I see you as absolutely a factor, if not a favorite, to win in any of these subsequent editions. If you decide to come back, and we can talk about coming back, we can talk about it now if you want, but just you're a champion, man. And uh I it was a really, in a lot of ways, inspiring effort um to me. So appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Well, thanks. I I appre really appreciate that. And I I mean, I wouldn't I would be lying if I said that I I felt so much pressure going into Kokadona as opposed to any race last year. You know, first race as a professional, I think I didn't really expect to have the additional mental pressure that it did. More pressure than I ever had before. First race as a professional definitely added something mentally. On top of that, I had people sending me your prediction episode over and over and over again. And so I had to just totally shut down my social media use. There were, there were days where I woke up so anxious that I felt nauseous. And so it was, it was definitely difficult. And then I had it, and I stupidly listened to a snippet of it. I really just should have ignored it. But uh, I mean, then I'm in like what Brett had said on that episode, it like actually got under my skin a little bit. And uh, we've since exchanged messages. If there was a hatchet to bury, it's been buried. It's like not like I have any animosity towards any of you, but it was just like it was a very tough lead-in for me. So uh it was kind of funny. Honestly, like the doubt is free fuel thing really did come into play for the whole race. Like when uh I would roll in ahead of Dan Green's course record splits, like everyone on my crew would be like, I can't believe you're being so disrespectful right now. And so we'd be, we were kind of making hay of it the whole time. And then in the last, you know, three or four miles when when Cody was catching me and I was really in the well, I was like, what do you want them to say about you after this race? Like, do you want this to be the race that they talk about? Like, wow, it was so amazing, the battle between Cody and Killian, and Cody caught Killian at the last minute, or do you want this to be a story about how you held on despite all the circumstances going against you? And so I I mean, thank you all for the extra mental fuel in that moment. It was definitely uh, it was it was useful.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

I think I can only speak for myself. I think I saw everything that I needed to see by Sedona. Um I think that, for example, that injury hypothetically could have uh overtaken you. And I would have already seen everything that I needed to see to tell you what I just told you in terms of respect. Like I think you could have you could have even DNF'd at Fort Tuttle or whatever. Um, that's that 45 minute sort of power nap that you took to reset things. Like um, I think seeing you stick with it all through day one, running that like 18, 18 hour plus first 100, and then still I and I know like, for example, those valleys, Prescott, Cottonwood, are probably tough for you compared to the more mountainous sections, like to see you still stick with it through there. Like, I think what I needed to see was that you could um hang with the front for that long at the most competitive race. It had less to do with whether or not you were gonna win overall or first male, whatever. Um, so just from from my personal perspective, I I saw everything that I needed to see just in the first like 200 miles, really.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Nice, nice. That's cool to hear. I mean, the first, it's it is crazy how fast we were going in this race. I mean, there were when I was pulling into Jerome at 5 a.m., so it's a hundred and you know, roughly halfway in 24 hours, I was like, holy shit, I'm in Jerome at five, and I'm not in the lead. And uh it was kind of baffling. I mean, it was it was really fun in in a lot of ways. And uh it was it was cool to see all of these places at different times of day than I'd ever been there before because like I'd never seen Whiskey Row in the daytime, you know? Or I I and typically I'd gotten to Jerome kind of mid-morning, late early afternoon. And so I'm just thinking about like racing my previous ghost, and I'm not I'm like not even close. It's like 10 hours ahead of where I'd ever been previously. So it's it was it was interesting.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Do you after this performance, do you see yourself any differently in terms of your skill sets? Like I actually see you maybe more as a runner than maybe you give yourself credit for.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

I I think so. I mean, I look at a race like Kodiak that I I'm signed up for this year, but I'm gonna defer. And I I'll probably plan to do that in 2027. And just out of out of interest, it's like, okay, so I can run an 1845 first hundred miler, follow it up with a solid 150 miles, and that that first hundred miles has 17,000 feet of climbing. So it's not nothing. And I like what can I do if I empty the tank in that first hundred miles? I I think, you know, something's significant. So I do, I am, I am more interested in in dropping down the distance and kind of seeing what I'm capable of than I than I was previously, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

A couple more things here. Uh I know that in our first interview, this was back in February, March, you talked about how like in terms of your values, like honesty is right up there. And maybe distinguish here between honesty internally and this uh need or desire to just make sure that everyone else knows what you're thinking too. Like you didn't necessarily have to put your goals out there, but you did. Like you could still be honest with yourself and not share goals publicly. Like, talk about sort of the distinguish honesty to yourself with that the value and just putting your goals out there publicly.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah, I guess to me, the honesty to myself and honesty, honesty publicly, it those two are kind of inseparable. Like one thing I I think you can see this in me during a race. Like I have no poker face at aid stations. If you, if you see pain or anything on my like, you know exactly how I'm doing at an aid station when you see me. And it's just like I'm like incapable of that kind of like subterfuge, if you will. And that's not tattoo my own horn in any way. It's just, it's just the way that I I'm built. But I think if I with the goal setting, it's like if I picture the people I admire most, they're going out there and saying, I'm gonna win this thing. And if they fail, they fail. And if they they they don't, they don't. And and I think that the example that I want to set is for people in and out of the sport to be able to think of themselves as having the ability to achieve things that seem close to impossible. And I just think that if you're, you know, my we talked a little bit about it the last time we chatted. And if you see my Instagram, it's always no limits, you know. And I that really is meaningful to me because I think that the the 55-hour goal, for instance, it's like everything had to go right for me to run 55 hours. I didn't run 55 hours. I still think that's totally possible, but it's like why not set up something so ambitious that people think you're a little bit crazy.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

It's just interesting to me that for you, it sounds like it does create a level of peace and alignment, but it also creates anxiety and doubt.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I guess the anxiety and and doubt was less about having a goal out there and more about the fact that like like when I'm listening to you guys talk about and in your predictions and stuff, in my like you actually know more about the sport than I do. I know about that. I know more about me than you do, but but I don't think I know as much about ultrarunning as you did than you do. And so there's just inevitably going to be a thought that creeps in, like, well, what if they're right? And so I I had a little bit of that, but I don't think it really has anything to do with me putting the 55-hour goal out there because what what am I gonna do? My goal is gonna be to win. And and people are gonna ask me what my goal is. And so, like, if I'm not saying 55 hours and I'm just anomalously saying, like, oh, I want to go there and win, like I don't really think that those two things are different in like the way that you will probably be thinking about them. So, you know, 55 hours, it's like I I want those goals to seem close to impossible. Like my A-goals, I probably shouldn't even necessarily hit an A-goal every year if I'm I'm setting them high enough.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I uh I think I sp I I try to keep it, I try to keep it pretty open-minded on my end about the sport. Things are happening so quickly, everything is so fluid. I mean, I have it in my notes here. I think I think I got this right. I think that the Cocodona course record has dropped 20 hours in the last five years from 76 to 56. So, like in this era where just so much is changing year over year and so fast, um, I hesitate to say that I know anything. I have ideas, I have theories, I'm testing them. Um, but I don't know. Uh I feel like we're all just kind of along for a wild ride, and I I would give as much credence to people in the trenches like you as I would to people who uh like myself who are fans and we're trying to take in as much as possible from all the different disciplines out there. Um well, let me ask you this. How how do I put this? I mean, now that you've had the experience of being exposed to this type of media attention and scrutiny, how much do you think media plays into these race results?

SPEAKER_00 17:42

That's interesting. I I don't know, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I I guess honestly, like once I was in the race, I had no anxiety. Like even coming into Crown King or in Sedona, any of the aid stations where I've got like three to six cameras on me at any given time, like the cameras to me don't exist. And I think that it's it and maybe there's a sense in which I'm able to really just lock in like that. Like I had a friend tell me who actually was at a few different aid stations. I never once saw him. But he said, I saw you look through me. And so like I wasn't even seeing the people that weren't relevant to the mission. And so the cameras to me were just non-existent. And and part of that's probably because with the Forge and Failure documentary being filmed last year, I've just got enough experience with cameras in my face at this point that I'm just just like not really a factor. But to me, it's I I don't I don't know in the moment if that plays really any role leading up to the race. I mean, I could see someone having the experience that I did and kind of crumbling a little bit more if they weren't willing to to take the step of like getting off of social media. Like once I did that, my anxiety was much, much reduced. And so that was that was the step that I'm going to take from now on going into races. But uh if if you're unwilling to take the kind of steps to reduce that outer noise, I could see it becoming a big problem mentally. But for me, I I don't know that it ha I I have a firm answer or like personally felt like it had any effect on the the Kogadona outcome.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

So you just did like X number of days before the race, you just did not log into Instagram, something like that?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

I I did post, but I spent that's literally all I did. I would go post out. So it was it was a minute and a half.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

And how many how many days before the event did that start?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Six. Yeah, it was it was the well, I guess seven, six to seven. It was the Monday before the race. Did that feel different, having gone six days basically not scrolling? I don't scroll that much anyway. So on my my social media use is pretty disciplined, but it did feel nice not to like normally it i I I'll spend 15 minutes or so a day on Instagram. And those 15 minutes, you're gonna you're getting whatever little inputs you're getting. And it did feel a little bit different, and it did allow me to just like I think reach for healthier distractions. I mean, during taper I finished three books, so in that two weeks, that's that's most of what I did, and then just allowed me to kind of appreciate the moment for what it was. And I'm staying in, you know, when we got to Arizona, we're staying in these really nice Airbnbs and hanging out with people that I love. So there was it was kind of nice in the sense of just like, okay, I'm taking a breather from getting any kind of outer inputs of of from the world. And I mean, I'm certainly not the only athlete that I'm sure has discovered that that hack to getting ready for things.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

I have a ton of questions around race execution and training, but I want to get um and maybe there's no update here, but I would love to now that you've had again we have this Cocodona in the books and we've had a chance to kind of soak in all the different performances and the times and stuff like that. Uh where are we at in your opinion with how much like the aerobic engine and just running ability matters at a race like Cocodona?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

I think it's gonna be different for every individual. So I'm gonna waffle a little bit on my answer. I mean, I think I I would say that prior to the race that like you guys were obviously overrating that factor. Uh in with with your predictions, just given kind of what I heard and uh the the conversation there. Like I just don't know how much running a 234 marathon has to do with your coca donor performance. You know? So I I like I and then I have no clue, and that's not uh a shot at at Max or anything. Like I met Max in in person for the first time and Is beyond friendly. So that's just that's it is it's just a one of those variables. But uh I I think it's gonna be for for me, I think the biggest difference I've made. So in your in your Kokadona recap, you talked about how I was sort of a part of the old guard of 200s and and managed to evolve, continue to evolve as the sport has gotten so much faster. Yeah. And so I think the biggest difference for me has been getting fitter. I think along with some race execution pieces, you know, no one's spending any time at aid stations anymore. So that's a big piece. But for me, you know, increasing my aerobic threshold and and my ability, my running ability and running speed has actually been a massive part of catching up to where the sport is now. So that was my my biggest deficiency, if you will, from the beginning. But I think how many people are going to be willing to go through what I went through for the last 60 miles? I I don't know the answer to that question. And I my inclination is probably not that many. Uh, and so what is the what what are those X factors, the uncoachables, the things that each individual will bring into the event a little bit different? It's just like, how how deep are you willing to go? I think everybody has the well in them, everybody has the space that they can find, but it's just a matter of like at some point between mile, like like Rachel put it really well. I think she's like, most of my aches and pains come in the first 50 miles, and then they're they're just gonna slowly get worse. And it's a matter of managing how fast they get, they get worse. And so you have to live like when I was still feeling well, feeling good, and I left Schnebely and and I ran the Munz Park section, which is super flat, not what I want to be doing. But my whole plan was to get to that section and run everything. And I I caught Rachel by a little bit in that section before my glute really failed on me. Like that is, I was just on the edge the whole time. The entire time I am sitting at the exact place of the maximum discomfort that I think I can tolerate for the next 20 hours or whatever I have left in the race. And it's like that is an ability that I have no clue how to even explain to someone. It's like find that space where you're you're so close to pushing over the edge, but you can just sit there for hours and hours and hours and miles on end. I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

So are you are you suggesting that if a front runner finds himself at mile 207, Kelly Canyon, running 1330s across that Coconuto Plateau, there is gonna be a universal experience that you cannot escape. And it's gonna come down to mental resilience at that point. Or do you think that there are gonna be people who can manage that pace and it does not put them in the pain cave like it would other people?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

I think both things will probably be true, and there's there's space in here for wiggle room for sure, where like your ment your mentality in the moment is gonna have something to do with it. So I walked from Kelly Canyon to Tuthill, you know, going 16 to 18 minute miles, and then managed to hold sub-15s all the way through the next 17 of Wanlack Canyon. So was I actually feeling that much better, or was my mental space so much better that the pain was hitting differently? I think it's more that one. But I do think there's gonna be a universal experience at some point where it is just gonna come down to who has the tolerance for the most amount of pain for the most amount of time.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

I'm trying to think, I'm trying to make a list here in my head. And again, if these aren't as trainable as I think they are, let me know. But like if I think of the things that feel the most accessible, democratic to train, GI tolerance, heat acclimation, maybe sleep efficiency, career operations, maybe pacing intelligence a little bit, like if you're really thinking about that critically ahead of time. But to me, what hangs in the balance the most, and I could be wrong here because again, you're the coach, I'm just this is just what I'm I'm assuming. I would assume that the least controllable variable in any of these events from like the mile up to 200, is how much faster can you make your neutral pace? Like, I do think for some people there's gonna be a limit there, right? Like we just have like genetic gifts around like VO2 max and like muscle fiber ratios. Like, is there gonna come a time where like the newcomers that come in, the Jimmy Elams, the Dan Greens, like they already have that uh like God-given aerobic engine, and they can either make a lot of mistakes in the controllable section of 200s or they're quick learners. And that's still the open. And I also, by the way, I should just add your performance at Coca-Dona has actually confused my equation. And I don't even know where to place you. Maybe you are a Jimmy in a dance. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just trying to get it. No, I get it. As we see the course record go down by 20 hours in five years, I'm just so curious to know is does it is it gonna be like in hundreds where at the end of the day, speed kills, or is it more complicated?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

And I'm so I I want it to be more complicated, but I I don't think we're deep enough that we have the answer. I I don't even know how optimized people like Rachel and I are yet at multi-days. So like I I I would put myself as having, you know, 60 to 70% of the playbook figured out. So like I'm I'm like I'm like halfway there, sort of, or like three quarters of the way there. And so I I think our hockey stick of uh our exponential graph of this this these things getting faster and faster is not yet at the point where we should expect to see it flatten. And so I'm I'm just curious as for what's to come. Because I look at, you know, I look at my triple crown, and my brother and I were just doing like, well, while we were running, we were just doing back of the napkin calculations, and I was like, okay, so there's 10, 10 easy hours to take off there for me. Someone else could probably look at it and go go for 20. You know, with Coca-Dona, like I have a little bit better luck, do a few things differently. Maybe there's there's five hours. You know, it's like where where are we stopping here where the the curve is gonna flatten, and I just don't know the answer to that. So I mean, it's potentially possible that like my experience in the multi-days at some point will meld with the aerobic threshold talents of a Jimmy Elam or a Dan Green, and we'll get the perfect multi-day athlete, you know? And uh I just my my current belief is that there is an X factor that we are not going to be able to put our finger on for some time that will continue to allow someone without the the top end speed to be competitive.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

All right. Norda is the official footwear partner of the show, and they're having a great week. Unless you have been living under a rock, you probably saw that their athlete, Rachel Entrickin, just won the Cocodona 250 outright and set an overall new course record from start to finish. She was wearing Norda's new Model 055, which launches later this summer. Pretty cool to see that shoe contribute to such a significant historic performance at what is quickly becoming one of the most important and popular events on North American soil. Go check out all of Norda's products at NordaRun.com. Also, a great week for another one of our partners, Precision Fuel and Hydration. If you were watching the Kokodona live stream, you saw their cool aid station setup at the Sedona checkpoint on the course. You also saw their products fueling the two front runners, Rachel Entriken and Killian Korth over multiple days. Pretty impressive to see this stuff work pretty much flawlessly in a multi-day setting. Go check out all of their stuff at precisionhydration.com and feel free to use code single track at checkout for 15% off your next order. And also, I just for the record, I put durability right there with like VO2 Max, lactate threshold running economy. And I don't know if I have my terms right, but I've always seen durability as like a percentage of a starting point and not necessarily like this fixed score or um you know, just like vaguely defined thing. But and I could be wrong there too, but like that's that's how I've always understood it.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yeah, I think I I I think that is a factor that takes it's hard, both hard to build, hard to quantify, but also very important. So it's one of those things that is just uh I I think it's a puzzle piece that we'll have figured out. And it's like I I described to one of my to to Joe Corsione, actually, as as we were doing, we were running Coca-Dona, he saw me in my my lowest low. He actually got to hear me me whine and be a little bit of a baby, which is pretty uncommon for me. But uh I described like attempting to put the puzzle pieces together for a 200 miler as like, okay, so you're getting you're you're like building a jigsaw puzzle and you've got a corner set. And then you start on another corner, and then the someone starts taking apart the corner that you just had together. So like the things that I thought I had figured out from last year, like, okay, yeah, I can get away with five or 10 minutes of sleep for if it's as long as it's under 60 hours. Like, okay, that's out the window now. Pull the emergency on a 45-minute nap. I've never done that in my life. Like, there's, you know, I would I would think that I'm pretty experienced in the space, and there's just so much that can come up that I find confusing. So, like, I all of these questions, it's like I don't have my finger on the pulse of it necessarily, and I'm the one trying to do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Let's talk about training, and then I then I promise we'll get to the race. Um I was listening, this was an interview that you did with Zach Bitter on his podcast. I think it was just after the Triple Crown last year, and a lot of interesting tidbits. But one thing you said, no tune-up races philosophy. Talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

I don't do tune-up races for me. I'm not anti-them personally, but I do I think like if I'm in something that's called a race, I am going to go all out and I'm going to take risks that I wouldn't otherwise with training. And I can't turn that piece of my brain off. And so from a risk assessment perspective, a tune-up race is a bad idea for me because if I get to a point where, oh, I'm I'm going to push through something that I shouldn't for a training race, like the likelihood of me being able to mid-race switch mindsets to, hey, let's, let's, let's tune this down is basically zero. Like, I'm not going to do that. And then the other piece of it is just like, how much do I want to pay for something that I can go do in a prettier place by myself? Like, I I mean, I'll do, I did the Zion Traverse or uh so a 45-mile training run. Uh, I'll I'll do, you know, a huge 37-mile day on the Arizona Trail through wilderness areas. So I'll go places where races can't go that are are prettier and more of an adventure. And so there's like two sides to the I I'm not gonna do tune-up races for me, coin, but the biggest one from just the intelligent training perspective is like I can't I can't turn the race off in my head if I need to do that.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

And then I'm guessing if you can't turn it off, you put out a rate uh race effort, and that just disrupts adaptations you can make in the larger block.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Okay, interesting. This was from your Substack. Uh you said that so this is interesting. I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. You're compared to your Tahoe block last year, this block was six percent smaller in hours, seventeen percent lower in relative load, and then that I guess I'm what I'm curious about here is did the Coca-Dona race follow that same pattern? Like even as a course record performance, did this Coca-Dona feel easier than Tahoe last year because your fitness has caught up with the demand?

SPEAKER_00 34:22

No, definitely, definitely not. So I think part of why my training was smaller than my Tahoe block is just I was in the desert. So if if I'm gonna make the same amount of hours for that Tahoe block in the desert, I'm gonna be doing so many miles. And uh I also I think mentally I equate running to being harder than being in the mountains. So I think you have to take into account the like intangible mental load that your training is having on you. And so I and when I would dove into that data, I was fully expecting my Coca-Codona block to be significantly bigger than my Tahoe block because I had felt it was harder. And then there was also a three-week chunk towards the end where I was out of my house traveling. And so I think that adds a little bit extra in terms of just intangible life stress. I did have the biggest eight-day period of my life where I did 173 miles in 42 hours in eight days. So that's also, you know, a massive shock cycle. But uh then there's the added, you're you're fitter, you're better. So things are a little bit easier for your body to adapt to. So there's so many factors that go into it. But to answer the like, did Kogadona follow that same trend pattern? Like, absolutely not. Kokodona was was the hardest race I've ever done, bar none. I mean the deepest I've dug, the the most challenged I've ever been, the closest I've ever come to quitting. I just and by and by quitting, I mean quitting and not failing. And and if you want me to I kind of outline the difference between those, I'd be happy to. But like Yeah, so uh I think when you quit, you're you're choosing not to continue when you could continue. And when you fail, you are either making a choice that is so correct as to safeguard your it's like it's like protecting your safety, or you're not making a choice at all. And and oftentimes that's the way failing feels, is it's just is something that happens to you as opposed to something that you do. But I've I've certainly witnessed people quit and I've witnessed people fail. And uh, I think it's okay to do both, but quitting there's a certain amount of shame that I think comes with it that is okay in that you don't want to be a quitter. Like this is not the sport for you if you're a quitter. Whereas if you're failing, I don't think any shame should really be attached to it. So those are my my delineations between the two. But this race is the closest I came to quitting. Like when I where did that manifest itself? Uh going into four Tuthill. I mean, here I I just got into this, like, I'm feeling sorry for myself mindset. Like, so I wasn't really able to run. My glute and my my right leg was really hurting. You know, we were, we had just my my dirt naps weren't working. I'm taking five-minute dirt naps. I'm not really feeling refreshed. I'm freezing cold because I can't run and I'm not gonna stop to put on leggings, and it's wet, and my arms are just like frozen in the shape of a T-Rex. And I'm watching Rachel, and I'm I know Rachel's running away from me. My and so this perfect race up to that point is just crumbling around me. And that's and so I'm like, okay, in my head, the the narrative is it's okay if you quit right now. People will understand. You're hurt, you're injured, and it's it's okay. People fail. You failed. This just might not be the race for you. And so instead of giving those a bunch of weight, but they was loud, loud, megaphone style voice in my head. I was like, we're gonna take a 45-minute nap and we're gonna go full reset. My wife, bless her soul, sat there and massaged my butt for the entire 45 minutes with a massage gun. So helped to help get things to loosen up. But it was that nap was truly an emergency decision. It was not uh not planned. And it was like, this is either everything here is going to collapse or we're doing something drastic. And it I think it saved the race.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

What was the what was like the worst internal dialogue? Like what were the worst internal dialogue moments where it like you were almost you almost convinced yourself that you were going to quit? Do you remember like what you were saying to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah, it's just it's like it it almost gets to the point where so so oftentimes the quit voice is kind of mean, but when it gets really bad as if the quit voice is actually kind, like, oh, you did a really good job up to this point. I bet you've proven people that you can be competitive in a race like this. Like, I bet you've done the job that you really set out to do. Like, it's okay. You know, how how nice does it sound to be warm and to lay down and to not have to do this anymore? Like, once the quit voice has actually switched to being friendly, like you are in the danger zone.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Wow. And actually that quit voice is kind of what I was telling you earlier. I I was I was sold as as a commentator, just you know, viewing the experience. I was like, oh yeah, Killian's done a great job. This is I mean, if it does fall apart here, like he's this has been an amazing, amazing ride. That's really interesting. Um, you mentioned that that shock cycle earlier, that uh eight days, 173 mile. Was that about was that about three weeks out? Did it finish three weeks out from Coca-Dona?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Uh yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Was that correctly placed? If you could do it again, did you put that shock cycle at the right point in the training cycle?

SPEAKER_00 39:38

I would probably put it a little bit earlier if I was just going from pure risk assessment perspective. I don't think it had anything to do. I mean, it's hard to say. I don't think it had anything to do. It's not like I was feeling my glute or anything after that. Like I emerged from that shock cycle healthy. And uh there's also just part of arranging training where, like, hey, my friend has this time free. I'll be down in Arizona. We want to go to these places. This is what makes the most sense logistically. So I'm I'm not so regimented with training that I won't allow circumstances to sometimes dictate when I'm doing things. But if I was arranging it perfectly ideally, I would probably bump it a week or two two back. But I I don't really think it had a negative effect.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Do you think, and again, I'm sure you well, actually, yeah, you you coach a lot of athletes too at this distance, so you're probably getting a good sample size. It at least at the front of this race, do you think there are like minimum training numbers that runners need to hit to be competitive at the front? Or are there a lot of different ways to skin a cat here?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

I I think there's a lot of different ways. I do, there's probably some minimum numbers. I can't, I don't know how much I can just soliloquy, like like try, try to come up with what those numbers are. Because if you look at like like someone like Rachel doesn't really have a training plan, like she would, she would say that too. So her numbers are a little all over the place, but she's also a unique case who back in January she ran the Coldwater Rumble, and that was on top of a 160-mile week, and then had an 84-mile week right after winning that race outright. So I don't think that uh she is a good example of like how most people's recovery will go from things like that. But uh I mean, I would say roughly in the range of like 16 to 20 hours is probably what you want to be hitting for some peak weeks with some some big days of like eight to 10 hour runs back to back, not necessarily every week, but at least getting getting closest to the race, like having that experience of running on really tired legs. I think even more than the training, like if you look at Joe McConaughey, if you look at string beans training, he was running mostly on roads, he just had a had a kid, so his his training is is much more constricted. But the reason we all still thought of him as a big favorite going into the race is because he has years and years of experience leading into this, where like, okay, even if his training has been somewhat less than optimal for for this specific event, we all think that his capacity, his experience is going to make up for some of that. And I think I I mean I think that's true. He still had a good finish. And I think that that's legitimate. And so I I it's hard to come up with exactly minimum numbers, but my guess is something like 16 hours a week is going to be that that low point.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

And then I know that this is increasingly becoming a very fast course, and there's quite a bit of running involved. How important still is uh like what what amount of climbing and descending do you think is necessary in training?

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Ugh, it's so hard to say for for this race. I think a minimum of like 10,000 a week with uh with probably some weeks that are like in the 15 range, and you probably want to have a few days that are in that like 7,000 to 8,000 kind of range just to get your quads like it pretty close to the race, just to get your quads prepped for that first section. But this race is the most runnable 200. It is more runnable than Moab. And that is just like it's that is such a pain for someone like me who is just at times praying for something steep enough to walk up. But uh I and I so I think as if you're able to get 10 a week, you'll you'll you'll be just fine, especially if you can manage to get a few bigger days approaching the race, just so that you're you don't smash the quads in that first 50k.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Were you if you look back at the training you did for this year, were there any weaknesses, or do you feel like you pretty much hit the nail on the head?

SPEAKER_00 43:49

I think my biggest weakness, and and this is a fault of my own, is like during that three weeks of travel that I really wasn't as disciplined with strength as I could have been. I I would say That I tried to be, but it's it is difficult when you're traveling. And then how much strength can you get in around 173 miles in eight days? I don't know the answer to that, but not much and not enough. So I do think that could have potentially been uh one of the reasons that one of my legs decided to fail around mile 200. But other than that, honestly, like every single metric that your watch will give you, this was the best training cycle of my life. And it's just like not even close. Like all of I I've never had a watch say that my marathon time was gonna be under three hours until this year, and it was estimating you know 246. And so it's like I have no clue how what to give that other than just like, I think I am making progress. So I'm I I would say I had it 95% right with just maybe a little bit of extra discipline on the on the back end with the strength training while traveling could have been helpful.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

So uh trade like trading some volume for a few more gym sessions?

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah, I think I think it's it's hard to do that, especially like that shock cycle I was doing with a friend, and we were going to places we've never been and exploring new areas. So it's like in the like existential sense of what I want to be doing with my life, like I want adventure. And so am I really going to trade adventure for that extra 5% optimization? Like, I'd probably make the same choice again. But yeah, if I was speaking just from an ideal training perspective, I could probably use to do that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Yeah. Uh one more thing from the Substack. You said in the last year and a half, the three variables you focused on, the VO2 max and threshold work, that would probably explain some of the predicted marathon time uh improvements, high carb fueling, and then reordering your priorities so that fun is number one, and then its process and then its results. Maybe starting with the last one there. Do you feel like fun was at the forefront at Kokodona?

SPEAKER_00 46:00

So Kokadona being the most runnable is my my least favorite of the 200 courses. So I think that's just a personal preference. And so, like, how often was I like truly able to tap into the fun side was probably less than than it could have otherwise been at a at a race like Bigfoot, where it's like totally my jam and and I that's like I'm doing what I love the whole time. But yes, for the training, absolutely. Like I loved, loved my training. I mean, I ran with so many friends and in so many cool places. I like like in that shock cycle, one of the places I wanted to explore, and I've that's been on a bucket list for me for five years now, is the Oregon Mountains in New Mexico. And we went, we went to the Oregon Mountains. It turns out they're the most rugged place on the planet, and it was just like absolutely brutal. But it's like so enjoyable to be able to have those types of experiences in the wilderness. And so, yeah, absolutely. If you're talking like grand training plus race, it's like fun was number one focus. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

And then with all that VO2 and threshold work, it sounds like you are seeing pretty significant drops in your neutral pace.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Yeah, absolutely. I if you look at my training, my last training run was a marathon with almost 3,000 feet of climbing in 336. And my I think I had an average heart rate of 135. So I would not have been able to do anywhere close to that. Well, probably last year, but definitely not a few years ago. Like that would have been that would have been a very top-end workout where it was really just a zone two workout for me. Wow.

unknown 47:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

I mean, I think this is a good place to roll into the race. And uh, we talked about it a little bit earlier. I think the way I want to phrase, like, did your because I know that the A goal was 55 hours. Did your 55 hour race plan include running, you know, 18 hours mid for the first hundred miles?

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Yeah, pretty much. I honestly, there was a point during the race, like when I was still feeling good in the Muns Park section before my everything blew up, where I was thinking that 55 hours was a guarantee. I was like, this is absolutely going to happen. So I I was I was like, in my head, I was thinking, I don't want to be so far ahead of Dan Green's splits for the first half, but I really want to be faster in the second half because that's where I think there was a lot of time to give. And I think that my race was playing out the way that I pretty much exactly the way that I had planned. I mean, my when I got to the top of the hangover trail and got onto that, you know, meandering, schnibbelly climbing, I ran the whole thing. I almost dropped my brother as my pacer, and he he emergency called Joe and was like, hey, you've got to pace another section because Killian's running too fast. So my my plan was working perfectly up until things went wrong. But yeah, I was I was pretty much exactly in the zone where I expected to be.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

So I know you've I thought it was 1928, but you correct me, 1828 uh pre-recording here. You ran an 1828 100-mile split inside of your most recent Moab 240, which is amazing. And I guess my question is is running that fast of a 100-mile split inside of a 200-plus-mile race only something you can feel confident about after the experience? Or are there training indicators that would let someone like you know that like going into this year's Coca-Dona, I know who's at the front of this race, I know how hard it's gonna be pushed, I know that like these numbers tell me that that is prudent.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

So it's probably both things. I think the Moab experience definitely gave me confidence that like, okay, I can feel pretty tired, like pretty tired and fatigued in the legs at mile hundred and still have a toe have have a strong finish. So as long as it's not this massive deterioration curve and it's a slow deterioration, we're good. But also the these events, I run these so much by feel. Like I'm not paying attention to my heart rate. I'm not doing doing paying, really paying, excuse me, attention to my pace. It's like it's it's I just I've done enough of them at this point that I think that I know what effort level I need to be at in order to have the second half that I want to be able to have. And so if that equates to an 1845 hundred for to start with, like, cool, that's that that's just where it's gonna be. And so that's not like it's really hard to give people uh like a practical answer to that question, like how can you do this yourself? But to me, I'm just running the pace that it feels like I could run forever. And that isn't the pace that I could run forever because everybody's gonna slow down. But that's that's just where I feel like. And so I like especially on downhills, you know, I think that there's there's a balance between going too fast and opening up your stride and going too slow and burning out your brakes. So attempting to aim for whatever feels the smoothest is that's that's my strategy for the first hundred miles of a race, is be super smooth. And so that equates to whatever it equates to. And then, you know, a reasonably fast first hundred is kind of where it lands me now.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

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SPEAKER_00 53:06

So part of it is knowing the terrain. So I think between Jerome and Sedona, I definitely just kept my my effort level like a zero out of 10. Like there was just, I'm just like, okay, we're cruising uh everything, and I'm I'm not pushing here. I'm just if if Rachel gained on me a little in that section, I was gonna be okay with it because my plan is to get to the top of the plateau and that's where I'm gonna make my move. So you like you have a race plan in your head. But yeah, I think as long as I'm running this sort of connects to Francesco Poopy's now infamous Instagram posts, but as long as I'm I'm actually maintaining my my running stride the the way that I want to for the second hundred, then then I'm gonna be doing okay. So like I that equated to like roughly a 23-hour second hundred in in this race. And like that's still a solid time for whatever the statistics of that hundred are. And so I'm not necessarily thinking, I'm not this like by the numbers kind of guy. Like I really, I don't think about spreadsheets. I I I kind of had some vague idea of what Dan Green's splits were at major points in the race, but I'm just not thinking about those at all during the race. It's just like all by feel, all by like, how am I feeling at this moment in time? Do I feel like this effort level is sustainable? Do I feel like my deterioration has sped up? Has it slowed down? Uh, can I still push if I want to? You know, when I get onto pavement, like running into Cottonwood to cross the river or getting into Sedona, sometimes I'll just speed up for half a mile and I'll be like, okay, can I still run a 930 if I need to? Yes, okay, we're in a good spot. Pull back a little bit, let's go 1030s. You know, so it's like I'll do some physical check-ins, but it's just I'm not I'm not being strict to the numbers, if that all makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Okay. So you're not as concerned, like one of the like it's not necessarily like this top of mind question for you in training uh what I need to do to uh maybe make like the second half split more even to the first half. Like you are just sort of like yielding uh a certain amount of uh of fade, and that's okay. That's just like racing at the 200-mile distance.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

Yeah, I think I personally think it's inevitable. I mean, you're gonna sleep in the second half. So it's like, if you are you gonna make up for that sleep time? I think you could fade less than I faded. And I think I would have faded less than I faded if I if I had some better luck with with some leg stuff. Uh, but yeah, I just think you are inevitably gonna fade. I mean, everyone in the top five during the second night had some level of like miniature implosion. Like my implosion was relatively big, but everybody slowed down. Rachel slowed down, Cody slowed down. Uh like everyone in that second night, it's just like, okay, this is kind of a struggle and a slog at times. And so I just, is there a way to defeat the dynamic of the second night? I don't know. I I haven't figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Were you compromising on alertness at all? Like were you dialing back caffeine when you had to take that sleep?

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Not too much. I I feel like in the past, when I've had to sleep, it just hasn't really mattered my caffeine intake. It's like your brain reaches a point where it's just overloaded and it's like, okay, here's here's what's gonna happen, and you you don't really have a decision to make here. And that's I was getting my five-minute dirt naps, but they just weren't doing what I needed them to do. And I I don't know how much that has to do with the dynamics of like the sleep itself. I mean, I'm a big believer in the mental side of things, so I think even just the fact that I wasn't viewing them in a positive light could have had a lot to do with them. So yeah, I it's once you reach the point where you have to sleep, I'm not sure how much it matters the like physical characteristics of your brain at that point.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

I'm trying to think of the analogy here because I know you're you're sort of a mountaineer as well. So maybe this would be a fun uh comparison. But what is the altitude level like below the summit of Everest? Is it is it called the death zone?

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

The death zone. I wonder if we can think about a certain hour marker in multi-day as like the running alertness equivalent of the death zone where it's like after 49 hours, like you theoretically still can operate, but everything is so up to whim and chance. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. So I wonder, and I wonder if like, what if it's 55 hours? Like what if like everyone in future Kokodona years is like racing to the finish for sub-55, partly because it's a new course tracker, but partly because they know that like we're starting to get all this evidence that like there is this death zone of like, I need to sleep, uh, caffeine's not working, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Yeah, I mean, that could totally happen. And it does sort of feel like that because there's this like obvious point, and it's hard to describe, but it is there's an obvious point where you're like you're moving so slowly because your brain can't function that like obviously you need to pull the trigger on the nap. So it's like that that does become apparent to you in the moment. And uh it's gonna, it's probably just like just like the altitude below Everest. It'll like some people probably get above 6,000 meters and it's that's their death zone, you know. And so it's gonna be a little different for p each each person, but uh poof, it's it's noticeable and you know you when you're there.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

Was there any did you do creatine? Did you end up doing creatine for this?

SPEAKER_00 58:36

I took 10 grams one time and the second night I had it with me, but I I was a little nervous about it, honestly. Like, and then I got to a point where like I just couldn't think about all that like the that, and I was scared of stomach issues, so I wasn't bold enough to pull the trigger on on um using more of it, honestly. I I don't have a I don't have any kind of confirmed answer on that.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Because I've yeah, I mean I'm sure you've seen all this stuff. Like I've seen a couple studies emerging and then just some anecdotal stuff about like, oh, like I traveled from LA to Australia and I took creatine before I got off the flight, and like I don't have any um time zone issues.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I wish I sort of wish I'd been a little braver, but it's just like I was dealing with so much at the time that I'm like, what if I then added stomach problems? Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Did you try it in training on like those long like in that shock cycle where you take and create in mid-run at all?

SPEAKER_00 59:29

I did a few 25 gram doses and I basically had like a 50-50 per success rate. So I was already planning to to lower it to 10, which I is what I take every day. Uh so yeah, I think I'm going to experiment more with it in training and just like make sure 10 grams is like at least a 90% success rate, but the 25 grams was was just right at 50%. So it's like not worth messing with for me.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Um interesting hearing Rachel's caffeine experience versus yours. From what I understand, hers was more sporadic, intermittent. Like they did it sort of like in like the pre-dawn hours. They tried to avoid it during the day. A lot of it was Coca-Cola based from what I heard. Uh what was your tally? Because that Tahoe was like, was it 3,100 milligrams over 52 hours? Yeah, it was insane.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

It was a little less this time. I I wasn't quite as uh like I didn't follow my protocol to the T. Uh, but roughly I would say every three to five hours I was doing a hundred milligrams. And mine was all from Gels. I did have uh an energy drink twice during the race. So I had like a big 200 milligram dose a couple times. But yeah, pretty much all from gels, 100 milligrams every every so often. And then during the night, I would be willing to do every other hour, 100 milligrams, um, a little more in the dawn hours. And then honestly, like the this after I took my 45 minute nap, I didn't really need anything because that just was just enough to to really fully get me through. But uh for the the second night while I was still really struggling, I was just I was like, okay, what do I need? What do I need? And so I'm like energy drink, all the caffeinated gels in the world. Like I don't even know how much I had in, you know, the space of the four hours where I was trying to to figure out what was going wrong with me. But I would my guess is it was probably but like sub-1500 milligrams for this race, so it's significantly, uh significantly lower.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

And you you were happy with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Yeah, I think so. I don't know. I struggle with that. I'm like, what if my sleep problems were due to the fact that I hadn't had as much caffeine, like my alertness issues in the second night. But I also am like, okay, do I really want to be taking 3,100 milligrams of caffeine? Like that seems excessive. So I don't know. I haven't I haven't come to a conclusion as to where I stand on which one worked better.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

A few nutrition questions for you. Um I think again, listening to that Zach Bitter upset. It sounded like at Tahoe, were you doing in like Bigfoot, were you doing 90 grams an hour for the most part? Mostly gels?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Yeah, so it would be like 90 grams an hour for the first half, and then I would drop it down to roughly 60. So for this race, it was a little bit different. For the first 50k, I was at 120 grams an hour because I knew that that was going to be fast. It was it was an intense part of the course. Dropped it down to 90 until roughly whiskey row. And then uh after whiskey row, the intensity kind of dropped, even though we were still keeping a good pace. So it was like 60 to 90 for the rest of the race, depending on kind of what the needs of the terrain were. So going up Mingus, I had a little bit extra. Going down from Jerome a little bit less, getting onto the hangover trail, starting to climb and run that the uphills at the top of that, adding in a little bit more uh towards the end on Eldon, adding in a little bit more. But I had I feel exclusively on gels and drink mix. I chewed uh zero things, I had nothing chewable for uh the entire 57 hours. So that was a success in and of itself. I was curious to see if that would work. And uh yeah, I think that will continue to be my strategy moving forwards until you know something forces me to change.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:13

Dang. So uh your race, it was 100%. No like butter rice. Nope. And do you think chewing is um like it's an added expense? Like, talk about your rationality, your philosophy.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

I mean, I hate eating. So it's like eating is my least favorite piece of the puzzle here. And so like every time I have to chew some rice, I'm just like, ugh, this tastes disgusting. And it's like we joke about calling like when I was eating it in Moab, we called it medicinal rice. Like, not even for the enjoyment. So I was like, okay, could I do this based just on gels? And last year it was probably like 90 to 95% gels with like a little bit of rice mixed in. But this year it was just 100% gels, like all those precision 90 grams, some caffeinated gels, and then a little bit of drink mix here and there. I did have some never seconds uh as well. Um, but I'm a really, really low salty sweater, so I have to be careful with how much salt I take in. Like I oversalted at one point, just taking one of those. So uh yeah, it's like I it's it's really convenient to be able to just do the gels. Just gel, water, gel, water, and that's all I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Did you have any concerns going in as to whether you could metabolize that much carbohydrate at a neutral pace?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

No, I I train every time I even now, even on an easy run, I'm doing 90 grams of carbs an hour, like if it's gonna be an easy, easy long run. So that is just like that's my neutral typically in training. And then it during some of my more intense efforts in training, I got up to 140 grams an hour. So I think I'm like full on on the high carb train and and my gut is ready to absorb all of that uh glucose and fructose.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Okay, so there's no you no longer have any. I mean, because I know in the past you were, you know, I mean, you did that consultation with Zach, like you were interested in the fat adaptation side of things and keto, whatnot. Um is there any argument left over for that here? Do you see any benefit there?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

I think that strategy just has lost. It is just it is it has fallen by the wayside. And I think it made sense for a while when these races were a little bit slower, but I just don't think it makes sense anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

Okay. And so no no the cocoa donut, 2026 cocoa donut, no stomach issues for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

No stomach issues. I had like a couple, you know, semi-trustworthy farts, but yeah, I mean nothing, nothing that slowed me down. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:42

Uh a few more things here. Again, reading the sub stack, you mentioned uh you had dreams of being at the last aid station at Kokodona, fighting with a few other runners, no pacers for the win. That ended up kind of happening. I mean, Cody Poskin closes a two hour gap to 45 minutes and last six. 16 miles. Did you embrace that reality?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

Yes, I did embrace that reality. He closed that two-hour gap mostly from Tuth Hill. Um, so I think we were we were like below an hour from Tuth Hill onwards. Um, so ultimately, like from Tuth Hill to the finish, he didn't catch me by too much, but he also did stop at Trinity Heights to to refuel a little bit after he had finally given up. But uh like I uh that was it was that was totally brutal. I mean, what was funny too is so we there was a Mount de Coast Media uh event on Saturday, and so Cody and I were chatting about that exact same thing, and we were like, yeah, man, how crazy would it be to be in a fight with one other person? This is me and Cody talking, like in that section, and then it just happens to be me and Cody who are who are doing it. And uh yeah, that was really intense. Like going up Eldon, I ran a lot of that Eldon climb uh because I'm just I'm like in my head, I'm like, Cody's probably gonna run this. Cody's probably gonna run this. Like, let's go, let's go, let's go. And then uh getting down Eldon, there's no real way that I could have rushed that because that descent was so, so brutal on my legs. And I was just like trusting my life with my four-ounce carbon poles to like get me down all those kind of big rock step downs. But then I got to uh roughly, you know, five miles to go. And in my head, I hadn't really, I hadn't done the new course. So in my head, I'm I'm off Elden, and then it is smooth sailing. But lo and behold, there's like three miles of kind of steep rollers that are also semi-technical. And so I'm like, this blows. And at some point, I got a text from my brother, like, you need to run. Uh and so I I didn't check the tracker or anything, but I'm thinking Cody is there. He is like on my shoulder. And so uh, if anyone was watching the live stream and saw my my my famous fall, this was like right after I got that text. I was putting my poles away and I just slipped out on some gravel. And so I like my hands were behind my head, so I didn't have anything to catch me. I like smashed my head on the ground, bounced my noggin off the ground, and then I just stood up and just screamed as loud as I could to just get myself moving again. But uh yeah, that it it that was it that was crazy. It was it was so intense. And then finally I got to two miles to go, got to Buffalo Park. I checked my tracker and he was two miles behind me. And I was like, oh, thank God. Like finally I have a little bit of space, I have some breathing room. But the whole time, uh, I'm just looking like I checked my tracker at the top of Eldon and I'm like, Cody, just accept second place. It's okay. And he was saying the same thing, I guess. He's he's like checking the tracker and he's like, Killian, stop running. So it was, it was, it was a fun battle for sure. And uh yeah, I'm I'm I'm I my guess is it's not the last time I'm uh I'm fighting with him for a position. What was the feeling immediately post-race? I mean, immediately post-race, it's just always relief to be done. It's like finally I can be done running. I can sit down and I don't have to be somewhere. I don't have to force feed myself. I'm no longer treating myself like foie gras. Like all of those very practical considerations are the first thing that I feel. But when it really like set in that I had achieved pretty much, you know, what I wanted to achieve. And then Rachel gives me a hug and almost knocks me over at the finish line. And Rachel and I had trained together and we had both talked about how cool it would be if we could come one-two in the race. Like just the fact that all of that happened, it was like, wow, this is, you know, I it really it didn't feel like the culmination of that race or this year. It felt like the culmination of everything I've worked at since 2022. And so five years of effort in like coming to fruition in one moment was just like insanely satisfying and and hard to describe.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

Do you get the sense that you are reaching your potential, or is there still even more unknown out there?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

Oh, there's still so much more unknown out there. I feel like I have at least proven to myself that I am who and what I believed I could be. And so that is the most important thing to me at this point. That, okay, I ever since the beginning, I I felt like I could be a really competitive 200-mile runner. And so now I'm I'm there, I've arrived, like, excellent. But uh, what else is left? It's like, like I said earlier, I think even in the multi-day space, I I think I'm only 60 to 70% optimized. So, you know, let's figure out that last third. Let's see if I can run some fast, uh, shorter races, see what I could do out of at a mountainous hundred. And uh, yeah, it's like the you know, cliche, the sky is the limit, but it's just like I I'm I'm excited for whatever I can turn this success into.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:00

For that last third, is there more time to take off? Maybe specifically at Cocodona, is it more time based on race execution or in your training?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:10

I think more time based on race execution. I think in this specific race, like some of the luck with just the glute failing, like if if that hadn't happened, I think I'm running significantly faster. I like never gonna say, like, oh, I would have caught Rachel, but I think I would have at least like pushed her more than I ended up doing. So like that, I think there's a lot more time there. I think being braver with some different strategies like creatine and that sort of thing could result in some some big benefits. I think that there's always fitness gains to be made. So hopefully I can enter next year feeling better than I did entering this year, but more from the race execution standpoint. I just think like if I can get, if I can get to the plateau and actually execute my strategy, like what is possible there? Because like I said, I was thinking of 55 hours as a guarantee at one point. I was like, 54 seems totally possible. So like when I'm when I'm thinking about what's left on the table there, it's like all that last 60 miles.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:11

Yeah. Maybe this is a a dumber and obvious question, but it in your experience, is there a supercompensation from the race itself? Like, does does just does running this fast at Coca-Dona this past year, does that set you up necessarily for an even faster one in the future? Just the race itself isolating that.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

Yeah, I think so. Just because you've proven to yourself, like, okay, here's here's an um I have a new baseline now, and now I'm working from from here as opposed to wherever I was working from before. So I I I definitely think that that's the case.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:45

And it I mean, to that point, amazing. I know for you, obviously a massive PR, largely because there was injuries in previous years and allergy stuff, but like to see, you know, Cody and DJ make 10 to 13 hour improvements year over year on their times, amazing. You know, at Rachel seven hours was it? So just incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

Yeah, it's it's pretty awesome. I mean, it it makes me so excited for what's to come with with Coca-Dona and and 200 milers in general. It's just uh yeah, it is. We are still in the early stages. I I I firmly believe that. So it's just like what is possible? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:26

I I know we're only four or five days post-event for you, so it's probably hard to compare. But do you get the sense that for you personally, career-wise, uh, is the is the media attention and bump and career opportunities is it going to be bigger off of this Coca-Dona or what you did last year with the Triple Crown?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

So there's this like strange paradox where I think the triple crown made my career in in that, and you know, my primary sponsor being first form, like in a non-endemic to the sport type of sponsor. Like I think the triple crown gained me a lot of legitimacy outside of the ultra world. And I think that Coca Dona is going to do the opposite. I think Coca Dona is not going to affect me on the radar of the outside world because I think people who aren't knowledgeable about the sport will be able to look at Coca Donna and say, like, he got beat by Rachel. You know, like and and that will will mean something to them as far as like delegitimizing the what I my performance a little bit. But inside the sport, there's nobody who's like, oh, Killian got beat by Rachel. That means that this time doesn't mean as much, blah, blah, blah. And so it was like the opposite for the triple crown. If it does that make sense, or just like yeah, it's like, I think what I'm super happy about, and I talked a little bit about this on uh on an episode of Everyday Ultra too, is just like I I think, and I mean, you sort of said it at the beginning, it's like the Kokodona performance for me, I think has quashed any doubt that I can be comp in a competitive race and perform. And that is the most satisfying piece of it. And just just for my ego, leaving Kokodona for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:10

It is, it's it's it's interesting to see to compare and contrast the races in our sport that resonate with the general public versus the ones that uh win you points and credibility within like the core scene. I actually think Cocodona is one of the weird ones where it actually probably does both. Yeah, I think so. In a lot of ways. But definitely, I think this was uh this was totally an affirmation for the core scene. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:33

100%. Are you gonna be here next year? I'm not gonna say no just yet. I was I would have said an immediate no. Uh before the race, I was like, this is the last time I'm doing Cocodona, period. Uh, you know, being the first guy to defend the title, first male to defend the title, that sounds pretty it sounds pretty appealing. But uh there's some life changes that are coming up the pipe for me next year. So I don't know I don't know. Um I I'm I'm I'm I would I would lean towards no, like if I was just an objective betting person, I put the odds at 70-30 that I'm not gonna be there next year. But uh it's it's not it's not a definite impossibility. Uh what are the life changes? I'm not allowed to talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:24

Um okay, so 70-30, no right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

Uh what would you do instead?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

I don't know. I think there's a there's a race in Costa Rica, the Costa Rica 200, uh, that is pretty appealing. I mean, you run across the entire country, you go from sea level to 10,000 feet and back down to sea level. So there's lots of different adventure-based activities within the multi-day world that I'd like to explore the possibilities for, but uh I don't I don't have a strict plan for next year.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

Okay. Rest of this year, you'll be at Western States? I'll be at Western States.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:04

Crew and Joe Corsion. It'll be my first time at Western, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:08

That's cool. And then possibly U Ray, depending on how the glute heals up. Definitely Tour?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

Definitely Tor.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:17

Okay. Talk about uh, I mean, totally different race, right? It's a totally different 200-mile race.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:23

Thank God.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

In your wheelhouse. Are you gonna go base out of U Ray for that? Because, I mean, Grand Junction, that's just right down the road, right? Like, what do you think what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

Yep. So basically the rest of my year, I'm not running anymore. I mean, I only I'm only like semi-joking about that. Like uh the rest of my year is devoted to to big climbs, big descents, and uh the biggest I can find, basically. So I think do you think U Ray is probably the best place in the continental US to train for tour? So I'm lucky to be close to it. You know, uh the Urae hundred is almost exactly half of tour statistically. So that's that's a benefit if I can get that race in as well. Uh I think I'm just aiming for for big mountains, big vert. I mean, we'll see how the glue heals up, but I had this goal of trying to get 100,000 feet of climbing in the month of June before Urae. Uh, I will be out in Europe about a month before the race, so I should get two weeks of of decent training there before I have to taper. And I'm excited about that. I mean, I was talking to Manuela Villa Seca about Tor, and she was like, yeah, there's 19 mile-long descents. So, like, what do you do to train for a 19-mile-long descent? I think you need to get out on it. And so hopefully I can uh get a few of those descents under my belt so that I feel like my quads aren't just gonna totally shred in the first hundred miles. But yeah, I'm I'm really excited about Tor. Tor is my number one bucket list race. Like a lot of ultrarrunners aim at UTMB, but that's the way I think about Tor.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:53

Wow. So and you'll be out there a month early training on the course.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

And then I'm guessing you'll get to do a little spectating on UTMB as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:00

Yeah, that's the plan.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:01

Basing out of Cormayer?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:03

Yep, that's the that's that's the plan too. I've got this week, so uh I was already planning with First Form for the the Tour trip and already talking to them about it, but after Coca-Dona, both Mount to Coast and Coros are like, hey, we want to support for Tour too. So I've got hopefully a lot of uh a lot of sponsor support going into that race. So the next couple weeks are about basically nailing down all the logistics for tour.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:28

Are there you talked about Manuela, are there any other people you're trying to get insight from in the tour scene who have experience there? I mean, I know like Joe Grant comes to mind for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:39

Yeah. Uh Will Peterson was there last year. Avery Collins has already reached out and offered to kind of walk me through a bunch of it, and he lives close by to me. So I think we're gonna get some training in uh this summer, which will be nice. And then uh I uh I actually met a guy um who is from the where I grew up in England. I met him after Moab, and it was just confusing, but he lives in Cormayor now, and he was like, hey, if you need any like of the valley logistics, just reach out to me. So I've got several people that I can talk to, but the Tor race logistics itself is definitely pretty confusing. And the Tor website, if anyone's ever looked out of it, is totally baffling. So uh yeah, Avery Collins, I think, is gonna be my my go-to uh who I'm who I'm shooting questions at.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:25

Do you feel with Tor, do you regardless of how I mean, actually, I don't know, I can see I can see scenarios where it goes amazingly well, but are you planning for Tor to be this multi-year project? Or are you are you are you prepared for it to be, if needed, to be a multi-year project for your career?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

Yeah, I could see that happening without a doubt. And yes, definitely. I think, you know, I'm willing to invest to what it takes to be successful. And so, yeah, if it if it doesn't go well first try, like so be it. You know, I've I've failed before, I'll fail again, and I know how to pick myself up and dust myself off. But I will say that it is it is this is my strength. Like climbing and descending and in mountains, that is where I thrive. So if anything, I mean, I'm hopeful that I'll be able to like channel those inner straight, like actual terrain strong suits into a successful race. Whereas Cocodona has been about overcoming all of my weaknesses in order to make that race successful. So yeah, I'm I'm much I'm more I'm very optimistic about Tor as far as having uh at least decent to good race on the first try.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:39

Killing, it's been a pleasure recapping Cocodona with you. I'm excited for the rest of your summer. Thanks for uh thanks for weathering our our criticism and using the predictions as fuel. And uh, like I said, we're so excited for you. I think it's a really inspirational story. Um thanks for being in the arena and uh we'll give you the final word. Like what is there anything, any, anything you want to leave the audience with, any calls to action, final thoughts about uh this past week?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

Yeah, so uh one very practical thing, and then I'll I'll I'll I'll leave with kind of a final message. But one very practical thing is that uh my sock company, Creepers and I are coming out with uh Triple Crown Limited Edition socks, and uh all of my profits that I make from them are gonna go towards the uh the malaria consortium, which is one of the most effective charities in the world, just when you think of dollars spent to saving lives. So if you want to contribute to uh a good cause and have some top-of-the-line toe socks that are are pink and blue and have a little crown on the heel, uh that is I'll I'll have the link in my bio. And if we could throw just the link uh to the weightless worm in the show notes, that'd be awesome. Um, but other than that, I think the biggest lesson that I take away from my experience at Coca-Dona and my experience at 200s is just do not quit. If you refuse to give up, you are ahead of the competition. You have 80% of the problem solved. And that is so much harder and also so much simpler than than than these like complicated hacks and sheets that that people try to sell you to get you through your life. But just don't quit. That is that is how you how you get through uh, you know, any of these big problems.