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Rachel Entrekin | 2026 Cocodona 250 Post-Race Interview
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Rachel Entrekin returns to the show to recap her overall course record victory at the 2026 Cocodona 250.
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Welcome back or welcome to the Single Trek Podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and this interview with Rachel Entrickin is our final piece of content covering the 2026 Kokodonna 250. Rachel is coming off perhaps not just the performance of the year in our sport, but a run and result in which she secured the overall winning course record that might go down as a generational performance. It's easy to get caught up in the moment with recency bias, all that stuff, but this one feels special. A note before we dive into the interview, this is a conversation that I really enjoyed. Always great having Rachel on the show. We did run into technical difficulties at a few times, two key points to notice, about 17 minutes in until the 23 or 4 minute mark. We had to use a cloud recording file. That is not ideal, but uh Rachel lost internet connection briefly. And then at the very end, you'll just see like an abrupt stop, more abrupt than usual, and a similar occurrence happened and we couldn't rectify it. So I would say there's like 46 minutes of really good audio, six minutes, that's decent enough. You'll you'll be able to follow the conversation, but not ideal. And yeah, other than that, uh great to have Rachel on. Two ad reads that I should just state up front. Norda, Precision. Rachel wore the 055 from start to finish at Kokadona and fueled with precision, fuel, and hydration all race long. Emily Arell, who is one of Precision Sports Scientists, was frequently on the live stream. You probably saw her at all the aid stations, Sedona, Whiskey Row, etc., working side by side with Rachel. Um, yeah, we would have Rachel on the podcast no matter what, but conveniently, obviously, there's that partnership there, which is awesome. Before we get started, thanks to our partners, Norda and Precision Fuel and Hydration, for making this episode possible. Of course, Rachel used Precision Fuel and Hydration all race long at Hukadona. She worked side by side with Precision Sport Scientist Emily Arrell to get it done. And then on the Norda side of things, she was wearing their latest model, the 055, from start to finish. Go check out that shoe at nordarun.com and go check out precision products at precisionhydration.com. With that, let's get on to this conversation with Rachel. Rachel Encherkin, great to have you back on the Single Track Podcast. You are now the overall course record holder and three-time champion at the Coca-Dona 250. How are you doing the Monday after Kokodona week?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I this is the best. I mean, I'm doing fantastic. I feel really good, which is great. Like physically, um, you can't always count on that after something like Kokodona, um, especially after seeing some of the other folks like feet, like heathers. Holy cow. Um, yeah, I feel really, I feel really lucky um that I feel good. And uh the only thing that I've been missing is sleep. Um, because I've been going on like an interview tour, and a lot of places are East Coast time, and so it's like, yeah, we're gonna record at nine, which means 6 a.m. And it's like, uh, okay. But um, I can sleep when I'm dead, so it's fine.
SPEAKER_00Outside of your own race, what was your favorite moment at Coca-Dona this year?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, bar none, just getting to go to the finish line and cheering people in. Um, is it's so much fun to because I mean I know exactly what all that takes to I know what it takes to get there. And it doesn't matter how you know we all are doing the hardest that we can to get to the finish line as quickly as possible. So in in some way, no matter what time or place you get, that is something that we all have in common. Um, so I think that that's always worth celebrating.
SPEAKER_00Were you there for I'm blanking on the name of the runner, but he came in two hours or two minutes post-cutoff. Oh, were you there at the finish for that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was so um assuming he was the last finisher, like official finisher, I was to hand him his buckle. Um and obviously I so I was there. I mean, I had like front row view. Um, and I had his buckle, right? And so um, but obviously, you know, he collapses in front of the finish line and like gets carted off to the med tent. And I'm just sitting there holding his buckle, like, well, this doesn't really feel important at the moment. Um, but uh I waited around about an hour and a half. Um, and you know, I talked to Steve and I was like, hey, I mean, I obviously would love to meet this guy. Um if he wants or if he's not going to like the hospital, you know, I'd love to meet him. Um, and if he wants to. And so they just kind of said, Yeah, you know, you can't go in the med tent while he's receiving active treatment. But um, once he's stable, if you still want to say hi, then we'll make sure it's okay with him and we'll see. And so I yeah, I waited around the finish line. Um, and then he kind of he was feeling and doing better. And so I got to give him a buckle and it was freaking sick. Um, yeah, what a guy. He's a nut.
SPEAKER_00I uh the reason I asked this next question, I'm sure just because of because of the massive increase in audience that you've received over the last week, let's call it. I imagine there's gonna be some people listening to this conversation that are not attuned to the world of Ultra, and they will have seen the images and the photos of that guy coming into Heritage Square. Uh like a severe lean. Can you help people understand like how that's a part of our community, where you kind of come down on it, all that kind of stuff?
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean, I think so. I was I was talking to the guy, I Wayne, his name was Wayne, Wayne Ammo, I think. Um, but I was talking to Wayne in the med tent, and I was telling him, you know, because obviously is the winner of the race, like, oh, you're amazing and whatever. But like, I just don't even if you want to talk about people who are just gritty and like get it done, it's easy to continue on when you're having a good day. Like, I really I had exactly one low point the entire time I was out there. Like it's really easy to continue when everything's going well. I didn't have any GI problems, I really wasn't tired, like everything felt good. Um when everything is really hard and you're literally falling over um trying to get to the finish line and like you're not sure that you're going to make it that is a completely different level. Um and so I was telling him, it's like, you know, you're the like you're the hero of this race. Like I I had an easy day, but you're the one who chose to keep doing this even when it was really hard. Um and I just yeah, that I I was so impressed by him. You know, obviously I wish that he wasn't awarded an official finish. Um, but I don't think that guy is done with this race. Um, he seemed, I mean, even a couple minutes, he it sounded like he just really needed fluids because within a couple minutes he was sitting up and he but he and I were having a full conversation and it was like, okay, you seem healthy and okay, which is very good.
SPEAKER_00I I think you're you're probably aware this. This is more for the audience. I you remind me of this new policy starting next year at Western States, where I believe the man against horse race in Arizona is sponsoring a ticket for the first runner that didn't make it past the cutoff at Western States last year, and they give they gave that person a free entry into the short race to go for. I think it could be kind of cool. That would be sick some similar partnership to take hold at Kokadona.
SPEAKER_01That'd be sick. I know they award the DFL uh uh chance to come back. Um, that's something that they do every year. But the I love the just one spot removed ticket would be really something. Yeah, maybe we should talk to Steve. I apparently have some sway. I'll see what I can do.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Okay. Uh help help the audience understand what it is like to deal with this scenario where you transcend the sport, you gain 120,000 followers in seven days. Everybody wants your attention. You probably have a bajillion media request. Thank you so much for doing this one.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, give us a dog.
SPEAKER_00Bring us into like a recent day. What's this like? What's this like? How are you processing it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, I I don't know. I mean, how can I complain about anything really? Like it people are interested in me. They're interested in the sport of ultrarunning. They're telling me that I'm elevating women's athletics like sick. This is all stuff that I would love to hear. And is very I mean, it's very flattering. Um I do wish I could sleep a little bit more, but you know, who I don't I don't know. It just doesn't seem that important. It seems like it seems like what's happening right now is bigger than me. Um, and so I I don't mind postponing my own comforts in order to help make something bigger happen here. Um but yeah, but today I mean I I had an interview with NBC at like 6 30 this morning. Um I talked to ESPN, had a couple Norda meetings, and then here I am with you, I'll be on Free Trail later. Like that's that's the day. But you know, I'm getting paid to do this. Like, this is the part of my life that is a job. Um, the running is the part I would do for free. So um it seems fair, you know.
SPEAKER_00What has been one of the most interesting opportunities and or messages to appear in your email inbox or DMs in the past few days? You mentioned ESPN MBC.
SPEAKER_01ESPN. Yeah, ESPN for sure. I mean, Good Morning America is pretty wild too. Um and then the New York Times. I I had a really, I mean, probably one of the coolest interviews I had was with the New York Times where just it was me and two other women, and we just by the end of it were all crying and hugging, and it was wonderful. Um yeah, I don't know. It's been it's been really cool. I'm I'm really stoked to you don't you don't think that something like this can ever happen to you. Um, and then when it does, it's it's crazy. I mean, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00I was watching the pardon the interruption show on ESPN when Michael Wilbon, one of the co-hosts, is sort of like trying to wrap his brain around your accomplishment. And it makes me wonder, and again, just based on the experience you've had with interfacing with ESPN, NBC, et cetera, how are they generally like what are they curious about? What do they want to know from you that like these endemic outlets like single track, free trail, iron far, how is the interview different?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's mostly basic questions like, okay, how in the world do you eat, sleep, and pee are the big ones, you know? Um, so it's like if you were talking to your grandma about doing a 50k, that's the kind of questions that they ask me because people don't know. I mean, people don't know what we're doing. Um, and they're just shocked to hear, like, oh my God, you did this in like 56 hours is a huge chunk of time, but it's also 253 miles, which is a huge chunk of mileage. And I think in their brains, it all shatters. And so they just have so many questions of like, what are you thinking about? What are you doing? Like, do you like running? Are you running the whole time? Like those kinds of questions are the ones that they mostly ask me.
SPEAKER_00And I know you've been battling this for a couple years. It felt like to me, sort of case closed after Chianti, but from your perspective, coming into this year's Coca-Dona, did you feel respected?
SPEAKER_01I did. Particularly at this race, you know. I mean, it it feels similar to like there's a race in Washington that you and I've talked about called Plane. When I show up at Plane, everybody knows who I am. And everybody's like, oh, she's the girl who like won the whole thing, like she's only ever won. Um, and that's that's the kind of feeling that I got I get at Coca-Dona. Um, I got it somewhat last year. Like last year there was a little bit of a presence of, you know, girls coming up and asking to take my photo and um people recognizing me a little bit. Um, I figured if it were like that last year, it would be like double that this year. Um, and it was probably quadruple that actually. Uh, and then after the race was over, it was like 10 times what I expected. Um, it it was impossible to like go anywhere in the square. What I mean, it took me 25 minutes to go like 10 feet in the square because I just kept getting asked for like photos and which is which is great. Like I have nowhere to be. This is the only thing I want to be doing, is like being at this race. Um, so it it fine. Like, yes, let's take 25 photos and like, yep, I'll sign your hat. Like, I'm game. I'm here for it. If everybody if people are excited, like who am I to tell them not to be excited?
SPEAKER_00Right. Uh, I was I listened to the Mountain O Post interview that you did with Hillary, fantastic, everyday ultra Joe and Killian. And one of the things that you brought up with Hillary uh was one of your lessons from Keonti. You said competition doesn't have to be scary, and you carried that with you into Coca-Dona. Talk more about that and how that manifested itself in this race.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I have in the past maybe done races in which uh the competition is more spread out or is perhaps more thick in places two through five or something like that. Um and I don't know. I mean, I think I think when you're being asked to push yourself to what a limit that you're not sure where it is, um, I don't know, that can be that can be intimidating. Um, because nobody wants to nobody wants to push themselves and fail. Um but I think or I guess push themselves and maybe in my case, like not win. Um, but Keonti really showed me that like I don't care about winning as much as I care about being proud of what I'm doing out there and learning more about who I I mean something that's been really important over the last probably year is like who am I when things get tough? Um and is that person somebody that I like being around and that I that I'm proud of? Um and so I mean competition allows me a really unique opportunity to do the hard thing and go to the well and choose to go to the well still smiling, um, and choose to go to the well still being polite and appreciative and grateful. Um so yeah, I guess maybe that's what I mean. I don't think I don't think competition needs to be something that is viewed at as being a negative opportunity. I think it can be I don't know. It's just it's just it just is. It just isn't it's something that shows you who you are.
SPEAKER_00Super interesting. And again, I think both of these approaches are valid. On the men's side, we saw more runners committing to numbers and places in it, and like you just said earlier. If I had to summarize that, you are committing to a version of yourself. And that was sort of your strategy to execute during the race.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Were you surprised? Okay, let me let me back up. In our preview episode, I was convinced that there was gonna be this really protracted battle from start to basically finish between you and Courtney. And I don't want to underplay Courtney because at the end of the day, when the dust settled, she ran a uh a two-hour course record. I mean, it broke 62 hours, which is amazing, amazing. But accounting for that, really, there really wasn't a race between you and Courtney after like Arastra Creek in the middle of day one. Did that surprise you?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think it did. Uh looking back, I think it did. In the moment, I was like, whatever, anything can happen. Anything can happen in a race like Coca-Dona. Um, because there is a world in which like that effort that I was doing isn't sustainable, and like, or I could trip and twist my ankle or get cold and have to sleep, like whatever. Like the race isn't over till it's over. So placements of other people during the race itself aren't important to me. Um but yeah, I mean I I did think that there would be um maybe more I thought that there would be somebody breathing much closer down my neck um on the female side than there was. Um it sounds like there was a hell of a race between again, it's kind of that like two through five position. It sounds like that was nuts.
SPEAKER_00Um yes, it was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean that's crazy. That's crazy. Um but you know, I I don't think that, you know, I made spreadsheets for this race. I don't even know why I bother making spreadsheets anymore. Um, because I just don't ever do what I say I'm going to. But um on my spreadsheets I put 61 hours and 30 minutes was the time that I thought I could run. Um despite the fact that I said I wanted to go sub 60, and despite, you know, not knowing how I was going to get those extra, like it was I was already going through my spreadsheet, being like, holy crap, like how am I gonna run a 10 minute pace during this section? Like, how am I gonna spend only three minutes at this aid station when in previous years I've spent 10? Like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna find all this time on the course? Um and I'm sure that like other people probably were doing that also. Um, and I mean when you do what was my record? It was 6350. I mean, doing a 61 hour COGA, like that's massive. Like you don't think about I think spreadsheets can be maybe limiting. If you're just if you're out there running what you can, and I mean, I'm not looking at my watch. I'm not like I'm just how am I feeling in regards to the terrain that I'm running on? Um and you know, I've talked so much about the barely manageable pace, and like, well, that's I don't know what that pace is going to be until I'm out there doing it. Um, and so you know, shout out to my crew for just winging it, because I mean my spreadsheet was dead by Crown King. Um, and I found I found the time that I was looking for. Um but I don't know, I mean, maybe if like I guess most usual usually people tend to kind of stick with what's on their spreadsheets, I think. Um and so, you know, maybe maybe if that's what was happening, then like that explains why, despite being course record runs, they weren't altogether very close. Is because I was just like we ride at dawn, and they were maybe being more calculated. Which I think it's smart. I think it's smart. I'm not, you know, I would love, I would love for Meg Eckert to come back. I think she could, especially with a little bit of experience behind her belt now at this course, I think she could do something wild. Um, but you know, I have the experience, and I don't think a spreadsheet is gonna tell me what pace I should run for this section. I think my legs and my body are gonna do that.
SPEAKER_00John G is the official apparel partner of the show. And uh look, I was watching the Coca-Dona Livestream the past three days, saw a lot of their products out there in the field, one product in particular, their Sun Tracer Hoodie. I ended up picking up a few pairs of this uh yesterday. It's got UPF 50 sun protection, an ultralight feel, secure hood. It is great for both the heat of the day or if you need an extra layer at night. I think it's honestly genuinely like the perfect top for a desert ultra. Also, while we're here, congrats to John G athlete Meg Eckert, who finished third in this year's Women's Field of Coca-Dona. She went under the old course record finishing just over 63 hours. Amazing. Congrats, Meg. Go check out everything that John G's got at John G.com forward slash single track. Also, thanks to Raid Research, the official equipment partner of the show. I think I told you towards the end of last month, but they have a lot of product finally back in stock, including my favorite, their LF2L belt. This piece is trusted by many of the greats in the sport, including Anna Gibson, Anton Kerpitchka, Des Linden. There's also some really interesting product that launches on the horizon for Raid. If you were following Marathon DeSablo last month, then you definitely saw Des Linden wearing a prototype LF 15 vest during that event. So stay tuned. In the meantime, go check out everything that they've got at raidresearch.com. In retrospect, where do you think the five hours of extra time came from? Like going from six mid-61 to mid-56?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think a lot of it came from extremely efficient aid station stops. Um I told I told my crew that was a big deal, and I think that I could save at least an hour and a half there. Um, but it could have been more. I don't know. Um, and then two, I think, I think I just ran faster. I think I felt better. I think I've I wasn't as stressed out going in um to the race because, you know, I'm fortunate enough to be professionally supported. Um, I didn't have to worry about, you know, I wasn't getting in on Sunday night and having to like, bah, I have to race tomorrow kind of thing. Um, and I got to leave whenever I wanted. And so I think just all together, my headspace was so much more healthy. And I think it just allowed for me to like let it out there a little bit, like leave it all out on the course instead of knowing that I need to reserve some because I have to be at my 50-hour a week job next week, kind of thing. So yeah, I don't know. But the eight station transitions were, I mean, considerably they actually kicked me out, and I wasn't even there long. I was there for like 90 seconds, and they were like, Okay, bye. Like, wait a second, what? Like, all right, you guys are doing exactly what I said, so thank you. But it was it was really funny. I was chuckling.
SPEAKER_00Well, maybe you can clarify it here. We were trying to, and I I was watching the moment where you were at the Schneebly Hill A. Station. I think you took a little bit of time there. Killian comes in. Yeah. The next thing we know, you have air quotes here, quote unquote, snuck out the back side of the aid station, and you're on your way. What what was that? Was that actually you knowing Killian was in your sneaking out? Like talking about this.
SPEAKER_01Um, I didn't know there was a back, I didn't I didn't sneak out. They were just like, Oh yeah, you exit through the back. And I was like, Oh, okay. So I just did what I was told. Um, I didn't know Killian was there, but um, but yeah, no, there was no like sneaky anything. I they just told me to exit through the back, and that eight station was super dark, and it was also dark outside, it was getting dark outside, and then the inside of the eight station was just like we were in this pitch black tent with like our headlamps trying to like put on socks, and so it was just like kind of a disaster, but um, but yeah, and then they told me to just exit through the back, and that's what I did, and then we ran away. Um, I didn't I didn't mean to like abscond in the darkness of night, like that was not my intention. Um I just exited where they said to exit.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good that it felt in in real time, it felt so dramatic and so theatrical. Like, I mean, you couldn't have timed it more perfect to make that assumption. It was really that wild. It was so bang bang.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. He seriously was coming in as I left. Basically, is that what happened?
SPEAKER_00Basically, wow, yeah, man, that's so funny.
SPEAKER_01And there was no he must have taken time, he took time at that eight station too, then, right? He must have.
SPEAKER_00It was such a critical moment for him because that was the point where he started to have the hip pain, and you can hear him on the live stream saying, I feel this radiating pain down my leg, and he's just sort of like lying prostrate on the ground, and his team is like, you know, desperately trying to massage gun his legs, and it looked a little bleak. And this was actually when he was able to like rise to the occasion. And I mean, he he ran so heroically, courageously those last 65.
SPEAKER_01I know. Yeah, my my crew um because you know, I was I was interested in what was happening to Killian because he was directly behind me, and I mean we were racing, you know. And um so at that point, I think my crew was like, Oh yeah, he's like two miles behind. I felt like he was two miles behind me my entire life. It wasn't, it was just like, you know, I'd run a section quickly and be like, I did it. And then like get to the eight station, Killian's still two miles behind me. And he and I chatted about this later, and he was like, Yeah, I felt exactly the same. It's like, oh, I'm gonna get her this time, and then he'd get to the eight station. He's nope, she's two miles up. Come on. Um, but I remember leaving that aid station, and Dom Dom Grossman was pacing me, and he said, Oh, you know, according to Addy, like Killian might be injured, and like he's limping into the aid station. So, like, don't worry. Like, take your time going, because it was muddy, and we were just like, ah. Um, but he was like, Yeah, take your time, don't worry about it. Like, don't do anything stupid, don't get hurt. Like, he might be taking some time at this aid station. And then, like, 10 minutes later, Addy texts and is like, just kidding, he just left. Like, you gotta keep going again. It's like, dang it. Um, but I'm I'm glad because I do again, I think I think competition makes us better. And so I I there was a moment in my mind where it's like, oh my god, if Killian's injured, I'm five hours ahead of everybody. And like, I don't want to do that again. I did that last year. Like, I don't want to be the person out front just like not being pushed by something. Um, and so you know, I'm really glad that Killian ran the race that he did and was able to hang on and push me so hard. Um, because if it if it if he had I mean, if he had had to drop, that would have been like I mean, I think I would have been I would have been like four hours ahead of uh Cody. And like that's not a fun race to watch.
SPEAKER_00But are you saying are you saying are you saying you would have let up?
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I wouldn't have let up, I don't think. I would have I don't know. I mean, I don't know, maybe I would have, maybe I would have, who knows? Um, but I I I do think that when somebody is when you know that somebody's behind you and you know that they're capable of overtaking you if you make a mistake, uh it it encourages you not to make one. Um and so I thank Killian for that because I mean him him being there no matter almost what I did made it so that I could not if I was feeling sorry for myself or if I was like, oh, I really don't want to run this, like too bad. Because if you don't run this, Killian is going to. Killian is going to run everything. Killian is going to do everything he can to catch you, and you cannot let that happen. So you have to do your best. Um, yeah, it was wild.
SPEAKER_00I I gotta tell you this. Uh until the climb up Eldon, I thought that the performance of the year was gonna be your Coca-Dona. Turns out I'm on the fence, and I think it might be the camera person that was able to stick with you the whole way.
SPEAKER_01Dude, I think I dropped that camera person. Oh, did you? Did you drop them?
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, they were trying. I was so impressed by how long it was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so she we made it. There's like a there's single track, um, and then you get to like this saddle sort of that's like probably two-thirds of the way up the climb, perhaps. Um, and uh, you know, it's a really tight switch back, and so I was able to actually like see her behind me, and she was like, Holy crap, you're killing me! And it was just like, Yeah, dude, I'm really sorry. Like, I just I'm on one right now. So, yeah, so I was going, I was going up Eldon, uh, and I just completed um the little Eldon section of the trail. And yeah, there's this woman, this like Native American woman just standing in the middle of the trail. And I know that she's real because my camera person was also there and confirmed that all this was happening. Um, but she, yeah, she's just standing in the middle of the trail and like I'm on a mission, right? Like, I this is my last climb, and like I'm almost there. I'm doing all these things, and like for whatever reason, I was just I dead stop to talk to this woman. And um, and she just like I don't know, there's something about like when you encounter a Native American person in their land that just commands respect, and like you, I don't know, I just you listen, you know? And she was just saying like all this stuff about like the divine feminine and like how I was doing so much more than I could have like the ripple effect to what was happening was beyond what I knew. Um and it was and just all this stuff, and I was and I'm I'm boo-hooing, right? Like I'm just weeping at this point, and she is too, and like I'm just like she she has her hand on my shoulder and I have my hand on hers, and it's it just felt like such a like such a whole moment, you know. And um, and then she and she's talking to me in I I don't know the language of Hopi people, but she was talking to me in that language for some parts of it and kind of translating what it was she was saying, and she was saying like, you know, just like strength and power and like all these words that like I just in that moment just felt so good to hear. And um, and she gave me cornmeal. She had ground up cornmeal, which I guess in their culture means like strength or power or something. Um, but she gave it to me and she was like, you know, I don't, I don't know what you do with it, but I need you to have it. Or I don't care what you do with it, but I need you to have it. Um, and I took it and I put it in my pocket, um, and I had some residue on my hands from it, and I like rubbed it on my thighs, and I was like, all right. And I don't know, in that when she gave it to me, it I felt, I felt it, man. Like I I was in it. And I was like, I'm running up this whole climb. Like, I'm running up this entire climb. And I'm gonna do it with the power of this cornmeal this lady just gave me. And um, and yeah, I I I had it in my pocket and ran up the whole climb. And when I got to the top of um, when I got to the top of, so I wasn't at the top of Eldon, but my favorite part of that climb is actually the part right before then. So you're still on the single track, you're going through the woods, and there's all that snow and stuff. Um, and I took a little handful of it and I tossed it off the top um of the climb when I got there, and then finished the climb and high-five Jim Momsley and Petadog. And yeah, but it was, I mean, it was oh my god, it was just really it felt like an out-of-body experience, to be honest with you. Because like I don't even I don't know. I just it was I was determined to climb up that entire thing and like to run. And there were a couple sections that were really, really steep or really, really rocky or whatever, but like it, it did not even phase me that climb. I was just like, well, she told me that I was strong and powerful, and like I would like to see that. I would like to see if I can if I can climb up this. I think I PR'd that segment, um, to be honest with you. Because I just like it was the most incredible thing, the most incredible experience I've ever had.
SPEAKER_00Two things. First question, I have to ask this one first.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00The Jim Walmsley High Five. Did he say anything to you? Did he did he say anything to you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, he just said like incredible job, and like, and I said, I well, I actually embarrassed myself, as I do. Um, and I was like, hi, I'm so sorry. I have to fangirl. Like, I think you're so cool. I'm so excited to see you at States this year. I'll be there. Like, holy crap, I can't believe you're here. Um, kind of thing. And then he just high-fived me and said like Jim Wamsley things, and then um, like, you know, he told me the job and he ran a little bit with me. Um, and then I don't remember if I said like, yeah, I can't wait to see you at this race, and he like laughed or something. Um, but then I and then I, I mean, I wasn't no offense, but I'm not slowing down for anybody except for that Hopi woman at this point. And so um, so I I was already kind of on my way down. Um, but it was cool. I mean, he's really I can't believe he went up there. That was really nice of him to do and give me a high five. That was cool. That was a peak life moment for sure.
SPEAKER_00And then in the in the context of that Hopi story, uh, and I'm maybe I'm thinking about this in like with Killian. I know like the Jerome section is critical because that's where a lot of his misfortune has happened in previous attempts. Has does Eldon have a backstory for you? Is that like a special part of the course already? Is there context there?
SPEAKER_01There's a lot of context there, Finn. I'm so glad you asked. Um, I hate Eldon historically. It just it's so hate is a strong word, but it's very challenging. So the first year that I did it, um Jake Vale was pacing me. And I just like shout out to Jake Vale, the ultimate pacer. And honestly, like, shout out to Jake Vale because I can't do this race without Jake Vale. Um, and uh he was pacing me up it, and I just like was so tired. It was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life, and like now I'm right, it's right, flag stuff is there, and I have to go up this and like, what are you talking about? And so I just kept asking him, like, hey, are we like are we there yet? Basically the entire way up the climb. And I was just really, I was really negative, and then this like dark swirl cesspool headspace for the for 2024. Um and so when I finished, I was stuck in that headspace. And so I finished 2024, and I was just like grumpy and like I didn't like that. I didn't like who that person was. Um, and so when I came back in 2025, one of my big goals was specifically around Eldon, was like to keep it together for all of Eldon and to decide that I was going to be positive on that section of the course. And I had Jake come back and pace me. Um, and I told him, like, hey, you know how last year was like we are not doing that again. Um, we are gonna be positive and we are gonna be like, if if you notice that I'm slipping into that, like I need you to alert me because I might not be cognizant enough to realize that's what's happening. Um, and you know, there was a point I, you know, we made it up the climb and it was great. It was great. We had this camera guy named Greggie, and we were talking about Canadian candy, and like there was a rainbow that was amazing. Um, and then we were going down the climb, and that is pretty challenging. And um, I was getting a little negative. Um, and I realized it, and I knew that I just needed to eat a snack, but I didn't want anything that I had, and so I just kind of like stopped talking for a little bit. Um, because if you don't have anything nice to say, then just don't say anything was my motto. Um, and uh, and yeah, and then we rounded the corner, and there's just like this idiot-looking dog, and then we just lost it, and then it was all fine again. And then I added grilled cheese at the aid station, and it was like, all right, sick. Um, but yeah, and so you know, I basically had various levels of support. Um, I had I had support and I didn't utilize it, and it it led me to a negative experience. I had support that I did utilize and it led me to a positive experience. And then this year I was like, okay, I have no support. It is me going up this climb, but I think I'm ready for it. I'm ready for the challenge that that is going to bring me. Um, and so, and I and you know, I even I hesitate saying no support because obviously I had that experience with the woman, and that was all the support I needed. But, you know, I didn't have any planned support, but I felt ready to take on that challenge this year. Um and it and I'm really I'm really happy with I don't know, it just to me that climb represents it must represent something about like my mental state through this sport. Um is like and it I think it it's a lot of like what I feel like I embody now is you get to choose how you want to be because I've done the same climb three times and I've chosen twice the kind of person that I want to be during it. And the first time I realized that I I I didn't, I didn't take responsibility for the things I was saying and how I was feeling, and I didn't I I woe as meade and I didn't I didn't try to change anything, and that led to me not being happy with how that race turned out. I won the race and I was I was bombed um because I didn't I didn't like who I was. Um so so yeah, I Eldon Eldon and I have quite the history.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna ask you, you know, obviously you're a veteran of the sport, so you've been through quite a bit over the last 13, 14 years, but I mean it sounds like what you learned about yourself in this race all revolves around that uh meaningful coincidence, that encounter with the Hopi Woman, and it was all encapsulated by Eldon.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Yeah. Maybe I'm I've been trying to figure out what tattoo I should get. Maybe I should get Eldon. Um, because I want to get somebody to commemorate this experience, and I guess it'll probably be Eldon. I I should look into that. Because you're right. I mean, Eldon Eldon does, you know, it's it's the you've already done all this hard stuff in Coca-Dona by the time you get to Elden, and you're almost there, but you have this huge thing in front of you that you still have to do. And if you allow it to kick you in the T, then it will. Um, and you just have to choose not to let it. Um, that's how I feel about Eldon.
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SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, every year I feel like like last year I felt I felt like everything went perfectly and we did everything correctly. Um and this year I feel exactly the same. Like everything went perfectly and we did everything correctly. So execution 100%.
SPEAKER_00How about latest insights first and then maybe biggest open questions for you about this race, this distance? So maybe first, what like what what's like the biggest insight from this year about how to run these things or race competitively?
SPEAKER_01Uh get rid of the spreadsheets. I think that's my insight.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think I think and you know, take that with a grain of salt as to who is the one who's saying this, because I am never somebody who has had a coach or done anything other than buy the seat of my pants. But um, I don't know. I just I think if I had listened to the spreadsheet, um I could have talked myself out of running a pace that actually just felt good and felt correct. Um, you know, obviously for a crew, spreadsheets are great, but I don't I I legitimately do not even know why I made one this year. Because I knew while I was making it, I'm like, I'm not gonna follow this. Like I'm not, I'm not going up Crown King being like, I'm doing a 1013 like right on schedule. Like no one, I don't I don't know. I just don't think that's the way to run this race. I think you have to really embrace what is happening um and and run how you run the what run the how you can. You just have to run how you can. Um and I don't think you're gonna be able to really, I don't know. Do you use a spreadsheet? Did you how did your spreadsheet go? Did you spreadsheet this race when you ran it?
SPEAKER_00No, but I'm also not at your level. I I was I'm like a I am a vibes-based runner, but uh like I I barely made it to the start line of my first coconut. We were like stuck uh in Page, Arizona in a van trying to get there the night before. So I I have hard enough time just getting to the race.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's fair, I guess. I don't know. I I I guess I I should ask, I should ask other people. I should ask Killian. Um, maybe, or maybe you should ask Killian. I don't know. I just I think that I I should have known myself well enough to just be like, this is a waste of time. I don't need to waste time filling this out. Um and then the other thing I think is really important is um I I think you just have to look at this race. It is going to be very hard. And I don't think that there's any way around that. But once you accept that it's going to be hard, you can start to appreciate everything else that this race is. Um like I think that this race is a really, really beautiful look into like human perseverance and human spirit. Um and if all you're doing is focusing on how crappy Faye Ranch is and how terrible the the Santoff Mingus is and like whatever, then you're you're going to like I don't know, you don't need to give the negative parts of this race any more power than they already have. Um you know, it's it's such a again, maybe this is just like my perspective of it, but like every single moment that's challenging you can use as an opportunity to find something that's good, that's happening. Um or choose to like, you know, have a have a meaningful conversation with your pacer. Like you don't I I had uh my buddy Steven was pacing me during Fane Ranch and I'd warned him, like, hey, this section's not very fun, and he was like, Who cares? Like we're gonna have a good time. And I had a great time. I had a great time across Faye Ranch because like it's all about what is that tattoo that Lucy's dad always talks about? It's like it's not about the journey or the destination, it's about the I don't know, it's like the company or something. I think I think that's like I don't know part of it too. So I don't know. You just you really have to you have to know going into it that you will need to rely on every ounce of strength to find the good in your situation when you're out there.
SPEAKER_00How about actually this reminds me we we spoke with Emily Arell from Precision shortly after your race, and she spoke to how well you guys improvised because I she was saying on a nutritional standpoint, she was already kind of throwing out the original plan and just like trying to keep up with how fast you were pushing the front of the race. Which was kind of cool. That makes that nutrition case that I think even more interesting after the fact.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know. Poor Emily. I God bless Emily. Um yeah, and I it too, it's funny because. During Chianti, we had to improvise also because I suddenly decided that I like gels. Super handy thing to like, let me tell you. But during Chianti, I was like, oh, you know, don't rely too heavily on gels for this race because I don't, I don't know if I'm actually going to like them. Um, and then I made it to the first aid station and I was like, yeah, we're gonna be doing mostly gels. So like she had to redo everything um and just like switch to gels. So yeah, I mean Emily, Emily is the queen of improvisation when it comes to making sure that I'm getting my needs met um on the fly. She's like the best.
SPEAKER_00Is it true? I I think I heard, and maybe you said it or I heard it through the grave find, no coca donor next year for you.
SPEAKER_01No, I I no. I need to if you do the same thing over and over and over, I don't know. I just that's not what I want to do. Um, I love this race. I will be there, obviously. I will be there in some capacity, but like what do I need to do at this race? Like, I the next time I go, because I will do it again, it will not be next year, um, but the next time I go, I would like to try to make it I don't know if I'm gonna go fully uncrewed, unsupported, no pacers, the whole thing. Um I don't know. I'm not gonna have any pacers, put it that way. Um, and I may not have a crew, I might just like Andy Glaze drop bag it. Because like that's that, you know, it's kind of like Eldon, right? Like I I've now done this race enough times with support that I'd like to see what happens when I take that support away. Um and now it's like fully all on you. Um but yeah, I'm not I I want to give and I'm not saying that like I alone hold the if I if I sign up, I will win kind of thing. But like it's time to give other people a seat at the table. Like I've I've been there long enough. I don't need to, I don't need to stay there. Um, I want somebody else to get the benefits of what this race has done for me.
SPEAKER_00So it is, and I have a lot of follow-ups. It's so first off, it's not intriguing to you to do like the Scott Jerk seven in a row and trace in 14 in a row. You're okay. Like three is good.
SPEAKER_01Three's good, three's good. I don't what do I need to do here? I just won the thing outright and set the course record. Like I'm solid, dog. I don't, I don't need anything.
SPEAKER_00And then and then your biggest curiosity, it sounds like, is what can I do at Coca-Dona self-supported, basically? Like just relying on aid stations, no pacers. That's your next curiosity.
SPEAKER_01I think so. I think that would be really interesting to find out because I I mean, I really like uh unsupported FKTs. Um, that's kind of my long distance journey got started with the Wonderland Trail, doing it unsupported back in like what 2018, I think, or something. Um, so yeah, I mean I always really like that style. Um, so I think that would probably be the thing I would do next is uh at least no pacers. And probably I feel like if you're gonna do no pacers, you might as well just no crew. I mean, I have so much gear at this pool, I could make a drop bag for every single aid station and have tons of stuff in it.
SPEAKER_00So here's a hypothetical. What if I told you tomorrow that the women's start list was gonna be Marianne Hogan, Lucy Bartholomew, Robin Lesh, Tara Dower, Courtney comes back? That doesn't entice you to be at that start line.
SPEAKER_01Well, Finn, that's an annoying thing to ask me. Uh of course that would entice me. Of course that would entice me. But I don't, I mean, I don't know. Like, how uh how enjoyable is it to watch the same person do the same race all the time? Like, wouldn't you rather I go do something else? Because I s I would, perhaps, like maybe those women want crew, in which case I would be more than happy to lend my expertise to them. Um I don't know. I mean, hard to say, but I I don't think there's going to be anybody on that start line that's going to convince me to do it again next year. Like, I, you know, I really I've that this entire experience feels like it was scripted in the in the sense that like I struggled the first year and still managed to win. I freaking crowdfunded my way there. Like, are you kidding me? Um, and then the next year, you know, I had this incredible breakthrough. And then this year, like now this is happening. Like, I'm I don't I don't want to get greedy here. Like I don't I don't want to keep taking from something that's already given me so much. So um I don't know. I feel I feel like if I were to go back, it would just be for I think it would be for the wrong reasons. And so I don't think I I don't think I need to I don't think I need to start beyond that start line next year. I think I need to support more wholly the people who are choosing to be there. So that is what I would like to do. I would like to, I would, you know, I already have half my crew is like, we signed up. So it's like, all right, cool. Like, which one of you am I gonna be able to crew and face? That is what I would like to do. I would like to I would like to see how other people do this race. Um, I think that would be really beneficial.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think I would say this for just about any athlete there. I I I think I have my selfish, you know, competition lines, but of course at the end of the day, I want I want you to follow your bliss. And it sounds like that's what you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Plus, I really want to I want to do Scout Mountain, it seems cool. And I, you know, too close to Kokadona. Although honestly, I don't know, maybe I'll just run it, but probably not. I feel really good. I mean, like physically, I feel amazing. So I'm pretty lucky.
SPEAKER_00And you have not given up the pursuit of hard rock.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I will never give up the pursuit of hard rock. I would like to do that race. So if uh if the stars align and for some reason they need me to run this year, you got my number, everybody who needs it. Just give me a call. But um, but no, I I, you know, I'm not saying that everything I'm doing is a case for why I think I would be good at that race, but um I don't know. I'm just gonna keep trying my best at the races that I'm doing and then optimistically hope that the right people notice or the stars align and it it because I think that race would be so much fun. I think I would really, really love it. I think it would challenge me in ways that you know I probably haven't been challenged yet. And uh yeah, that's it's a very it's a worthwhile pursuit for me still.
SPEAKER_00So two more questions before we go. I have to so as Coca-Dona has gotten more popular, everybody is weighing into like the analysis of what it means, where it's going, all that type of stuff. One of the most popular comments that came out of this was Francesco Poopy made a post on Instagram uh which was half congratulating you, half expressing confusion as to how this fits into the trail running space. Yeah. And because it was because it caught so much fire, I feel an obligation to bring it up here in this conversation. What is your what are your thoughts on it?
SPEAKER_01You know, I'm not sure what my thoughts are, but I think that if the first part of that post there's no need for the first part of that post. Just say congratulations. And then let's let's just move on. Um I yeah, I don't know. I I think that Francesco is a nice person. I've never met him. He seems great, you know. I don't I don't know. I don't I really don't think he meant anything incendiary or derogatory by it. But um, I think as people we could do a lot for each other if we would take out asterisk around performances. I Killian and I on Joe's podcast tossed up talked about the asterisk people who are always going to congratulate you, but they have something they want to say about it that's gonna take away from your performance. And like, we just need to stop like if somebody's done something amazing, just tell them that they've done something amazing. And you don't need to insert your own opinions into their performance, like publicly, you know, like do that with your friends over beers, like whatever. I don't care about that. But like if you're going to publicly put something out there and you're going to like tag that person in it, just congratulations. What you did is great. I don't I don't understand how you did that. End of end, you know? Like, let's just let's just let our congratulations be only that. Don't make them into your own soap box on like it's not my job to explain to you what 200s are, you know, just because you like please go do it and tell me that it's not trail running because I don't know. I ran 90% of that race. And like I did my first hundred in 18 flat. So like I think that sounds like a trail run to me, but you know, if you don't think so, then I guess that's your opinion. I just wish that we could be big enough people to just congratulate people who've earned it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so uh earlier I gave you that hypothetical women's start list of like Lucy, Mary Ann, Tara, Robin, etc. Like that would be amazing. That's just me putting that up there. Hypothetical. What are your Lucy here?
SPEAKER_01I want Lucy here so bad. I'm not Lucy.
SPEAKER_00Sweet, Lucy would be sweet. Lucy, if you're listening, it'd be sweet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Lucy, if you're listening, please come here.
SPEAKER_00Well, she paced and crewed Ryan Sands uh two years ago. So she knows. She knows. Um, anyways, what are your confidence levels that the 200-mile scene and a race like Cocodona gets integrated into like what I call the big three of Western U Timby Hard Rock and other pros like yourself validate it and want to be on that start line? Like soon.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I'll tell you that every single one of my contracts, if they did not already have Kokodona listed as an A-race, it became one after this year. So I mean, I think I think that shift is happening. I don't think it's gonna happen for every single 200, obviously. Um, but I think that Kokodona does such a good job of highlighting its participants, of celebrating its victors. Um it it's just, I mean, it's like the freak, I mean, I was joking earlier in the week of like, welcome to the sixth annual Hunger Games, because that's kind of what it feels like a little bit. Like we're all just watching these people hallucinate in the woods and do really hard things and like pop blisters and stuff. Like it's kind of wild, but it's really appealing to watch, I'd imagine, you know, even before I got into the race, I was glued to the live stream um for years before I signed up. So, I mean, I think, I think it's getting there. I think if, you know, Heather Jackson was super curious and signed up and like I think that there will be people out there who are super curious and and sign up. And I I hope that if any of those people have questions, they can ask me. But um, because I don't know, I'm I'm just such a I'm such a huge fan of this race because it is not just about who gets to the finish line first. Um, it's about yeah, I mean, without sounding like a broken record, it's about self-discovery, it's about figuring out what kind of person you are. Um because hundred milers, like hundred milers are really hard. Multi-days are exponentially different than 100 milers. Um and yeah, I don't know, it it teaches you about support from other people and how to ask for it, and it teaches you about how to be grateful in situations that are challenging. I mean, I don't get nearly as much out of hundred milers as I do this race. And so, you know, sure, do I think that like super heavy-hitting pros are just gonna flock to Coca-Dona? No. But I think that when they're ready, this race is waiting for them. And I hope that they take advantage of it.
SPEAKER_00I think it was super symbolic that Jim was right there on Elden giving you a high of five. I think that is symbolic of what could be to come. That is, again, just me trying to put something out in the universe.
SPEAKER_01I I mean, I hope you're right, because I think I mean, I would love to see every I would love to see everybody run this race. I just it it has done so much for me as a person at a fundamental level. It has changed me at a like cellular level. So um I hope I hope everybody gets the chance to do it and be changed in that same way.
SPEAKER_00Last topic here. Walk us through this summer ramp to UTMB. Like what's what's going on in your life? Where are you gonna be? Anything in the lead up? Just give us the roadmap.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh I am not signed up for anything until UTMB, which is a huge change from my previous years where I do like 90 races in the summer. Um, and I'm a little bummed about it, but I'm using it as an opportunity to help out other people. So I'll be pacing um a bunch of people this summer. I'd like to pace Devin at Scout Mountain. Um, I'll be pacing Addy at States and then Tara at Hard Rock. So that feels good. Um, yeah, that feels good. Um so yeah, I think I'll be busy. And then, you know, I'm I'm speaking at there's a women's 50k event in Washington that I spoke at last year and they invited me back um this year before Coca-Dona. And so now I'm sure everybody sure it'll sell out now. But um, but yeah, so I'll be traveling up there and doing that, and then doing like kind of this big road trip in route to states. Um, I don't know. I mean, I I don't have I don't have anything planned, but I also have a lot of stuff planned that's gonna, I think, really fill my cup. Um so, and then you know, obviously I live in the best place ever, Salida, Colorado. Um, the mountains are beautiful. We just got some snow, so some things are off limits again, but um before long I'll be able to run in those and train. And then um in just after High Lonesome, so that's like the 17th of July, the next week I'll be going over to France. So um so yeah, I'm taking it seriously. I'm trying. Um, and uh yeah, so I'll be I'll be there for about a week and then I'm leading a vagabond trails tour of the TMB, which is perfect because it's about a month out. Um, and then I'll have, I think, and then I'll have another week to kind of train at whatever capacity I want to train. And then I have two weeks until the race. Um, so I'm trying to do it right. I'm you know, I'm trying to not go over there and go crazy and blow myself up before the race. Like, nope, I'm gonna be there five weeks before the race. Um, and then I'm staying an extra week afterwards. I'll probably go to Switzerland because I've never really been. But um, yeah, so that's the summer.
SPEAKER_00I will likely see you at Scout. I'm gonna be out there. Uh I was gonna race no longer, no longer racing. I I've been doing I'm on the 20 to 30 mile per week uh train right now. So I think I'm gonna try to crew maybe pipe uh pace my McBonnegal and then do some volunteering for Luke and the team there. Amazing event. Have you been to Scout before?
SPEAKER_01I haven't. I it's oh it I've heard nothing but good. I've heard nothing but good.
SPEAKER_00It's great. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_01And I love Luke Nelson. He's um we chatted a little bit about the snowman race that I'll be doing in October, which I'm officially in. Hell yeah. Um, but uh, but yeah, so he's the he's the athlete coordinator manager guy for that. And um, so it'll be good to it was good to see him too. He was careing Heather Jackson. So um, yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to yeah, I'm I really am curious about that event, so I'd like to check it out.
SPEAKER_00Uh okay, final word, any calls to action or final thoughts that you want to leave listeners and viewers with about either this experience, anything you've learned in this media surge last week, whatever.
SPEAKER_01Oh gosh, calls to action. Um I mean, I I talked about it a lot already, but I think that if anybody has not heard me say it, um, the biggest thing I got out of this year's race was um if somebody has to win, why can't it be you? Um, I think that especially women, you know, we haven't necessarily done a lot of overall victories. And I know when I took that lead at miles 60, I was like, holy crap, am I really like, I'm really about to pass string bean. Like he knows what he's doing here. And like, I'm about to pass Killian, who also knows what they're doing here. Like, what am I doing?
