Cheryl

Hi, I'm Cheryl Ang, and I'm your host at The Parenting Podcast. I have a question for you. Have you ever been surprised in noticing that maybe your teenager and your two year old sometimes kind of react to things in a similar way? Maybe a whole lot of emotion, a lot of self focus, and... Maybe not walking in the maturity that you think they should have. Well, then I'm glad you're here because today on this episode, the team discusses what is really going on that causes those emotional responses. And then how do we as parents handle it? Listen in on our ongoing discussion of the book, The Whole Brain Child, as we go upstairs and downstairs. Thank you Here we are again with this fascinating conversation on the whole brain child,

Christie

Yeah

Cheryl

and I love what we're doing, don't you? Mm-hmm.

Ellen

Yeah. This has been such a good journey through this book.

Cheryl

Oh, we're just, it's been really good. We're just, you know, listeners, if you could hear our conversations outside the recording room. Mm-hmm. Because We're getting so much out of it, and we see it so much in our

Christie

lives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know as I'm reading this, I'm thinking, you know, some of these things. I eventually came to using some of the tools, but I took the long way around. It would've been really nice to have been taught early on in my parenting rather than having to trial and error on my way through. Yeah. My grandkids will think,

Ellen

gosh, she's such a perfect grandma.

Christie

My kids just, you don know what it took to get here. My

Ellen

kids will go, well, yeah, you didn't live with her back then.

Christie

Uhhuh,

Cheryl

Uhhuh. Okay, so we're going in a different direction today, literally in our brain and our discussion. And, um, Kristy, can you kind of catch us up what we wanna do with integration horizontally and vertically. Can you, uh, give us a little insight?

Christie

Yeah. So he's been talking about the two different hemispheres of the brain, the left and the right. The left being the literal, logical, linear thinking, and the right being more creative. Yeah. Emotional, um, way of viewing things and, and how to help our kids when they're caught up in that emotion or, um, You know, not being able to think logically about something. Mm-hmm. How to them kind of reason to the other side or vice versa when they're caught in that literal Yeah. Legalistic mentality and, and helping them have a little more compassion or insight into the person's emotions. Very good. Bring balance. Yeah,

Cheryl

that is good.

Ellen

I, I didn't know, kinda like you were saying, Chrisy, I hadn't learned this till later. So, you know, I just was usually be quiet or go to your room. Mm-hmm. You know, that kind of parenting.

Christie

Very left brain. Yes.

Ellen

Are you done now with your temperature

Cheryl

after We can move on too much emotion

Ellen

here. Right.

Cheryl

Yes. And, you know,

Ellen

that's how I was raised. Mm-hmm. And when, uh, we were raising our kids, the older people in our lives, that's kind of what they taught us to do. Mm-hmm. Don't, you know, don't, you don't have to, you know, worry about their emotions, they'll be fine just. They'd have to learn to obey you. Right. And things like that. So it was kind of black and white. Yeah. And you know, of course, unfortunately I learned that isn't true. Children aren't black and white and that isn't the healthiest way to No deal with your children's emotions. Mm. Yeah. So, um, In, in doing that. Um, you know, it took me a really long time. I think I started to doing it when finally the last kids were like in high school. Right. But, um, it's interesting cuz I've watched one of my daughters who has a big family and she's really good at that. You know, I'm always. Surprised because she has seven children and she will take the time to help them kind of think through and give them time to have their emotions. Mm-hmm. Because when I saw my kids melting down or having a a big emotional drama, trauma, my instinct was to run. Because I didn't, I didn't know what to do, so I would just be like, I'll just leave them alone. Right. Go away or send them to their room, because I really was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. I, I don't know.

Christie

So. Right. Just, just stop it. Yeah. Yes. I can relate with that a lot. And I, I think that just is a l. It's very, um, inspiring and encouraging to hear you talk about continuing to learn and grow. Yeah. Because I think a lot of times we do hear older generations say kids are the same today as they were when we were young. You know, just, yeah, knock it out or, you know, just stop what you're doing or whatever and, and why. Yes, children are the same, but we have more understanding of them. Yes. My father than maybe few or past generations then yeah. Well, that's

Ellen

why I like all my younger friends, they kind of let me know, including my own daughters what's happening. Yeah, yeah. You know, and why it's happening that way and it interesting. Right. Including

Cheryl

children and there's just such good truth here.

Christie

yeah, yeah

Cheryl

we've talked about horizontal integration. it's amazing Mm-hmm. Because if physically in our brains, It. Literally it's horizontal in our brain. And so we, we've talked about that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so he is trying to say, let's in parenting, And with our children use all the parts of our brains and. Yeah. Bring up our strengths and minimize the weaknesses. And then to be integrated. Yeah. Directionally,

Christie

Right. We all have the access to the other side to bring balance

Cheryl

And then today, the next section, now we're gonna go vertically, literally vertically in the brain and deal with that. And he calls it the upstairs, downstairs brain, right? Yeah. Um, Yeah. Okay. So the two parts here before it was left and right, and this part, they're actually two terms. The downstairs brain is what they're talking about is the amygdala, which is um, like an almond size gland. And it actually is down by sort of your left ear over that area, and then the upstairs brain. Is the PFC or the prefrontal cortex, which is if you put your hand in your forehead, it's right behind you. So it's up, in your brain and to the front. And uh, the PFC is our big friend in the brain. Yeah, because it's the location of wise the decision making evaluation, judging things Well, yeah,

Christie

it's the simmer

Ellen

down part.

Cheryl

Exactly It's the part that helps you to self-regulate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you've ever known someone, maybe that has pfc, frontal lobe damage. They have a real problem with self-regulation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know a young man, he's in his twenties and he's brilliant. He's articulate. He's an amazing man. But he had a prefrontal cortex injury when he was young, and he struggles with the regulation of his emotions. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because this upstairs, brain is our friend, this is what helps you. Start making decisions as an adult that you would not as a child? Yeah. Okay. So the amygdala on the other hand is our downstairs friend and God gave it to us for protection, but it basically only does three things, fight, flight, or freeze. Yeah. And so it is a reactive. Component, but it's helpful. For example, I don't know about y'all. Ellen and I grew up in the era of no seat belts, so my parents had this. Anytime we would stop fast or come up to a stop sign quickly, or someone would curve in front of us or something, yeah, man, that right arm would go out across us as if their arm could keep us from going through the windshield. Right. But, but it was our parents' reaction. It was a reaction. And so that's where the amygdala fires off and gives adrenaline to fight fraud or freeze or mm-hmm. A child running in the street and you don't have to think about it, you react well to it. Right. Or a bear or more serious things when they're hard things in our life sometimes. Tragedy or loss or something like that. The amygdala helps us by helping us do flee from it, by not dealing with it or hide from it until we can cope with it. Yeah.

Christie

yeah, yeah

Cheryl

So the amygdala is great. The problem is mm-hmm. It can't process anything, so. What we want to do is learn how to use the amygdala and be able to turn and go upstairs to our prefrontal cortex. Well, yeah, I

Ellen

mean, what you're saying is basically our amygdala lives in the basement. And there's a set of stairs that goes upstairs mm-hmm. To where our, uh, prefrontal cortex is. Right. So we have to learn to take the stairs mm-hmm. In our lives. And when it's right to take the stairs and how fast you have to go up.

Cheryl

Oh, that's good

Christie

That's right. Well, and he makes the point that the, the downstairs brain is really developed at birth because it's involuntary things. Oh, yes. Breathing, blinking, you know, crying, those types of things. But the upstairs brain, Really isn't developed until the mid twenties. Yes,

Cheryl

yes. That's the deal.

Christie

So even when you get up there True. It's not complete and accessible. And that's why

Ellen

sometimes your two year old and your 15 year old's behavior can seem

Christie

very similar.

Cheryl

Yes, yes. Because. The lack of the prefrontal cortex Right. Thing. And he makes a good case for it. And then the compassion mm-hmm. That we as parents can't expect someone. Right. Without a PFC to act as though it were developed. Yes. Right. And um, like the question, what were you thinking thank. You're usually asking someone without a developed pfc. Yes, I heard

Ellen

that probably from sixth grade till I got married. And even when I got married, my husband would go. What were you thinking?

Christie

Well, it's funny, I was, uh, with my oldest daughter who's 24, a couple of months ago, and we were talking and, and she said, mom, I think I can feel my Wow. Prefrontal cortex developing. We talked about this and she's aware that she's. Not fully developed in her brain yet and, and I thought it was so interesting. She can, she can feel herself. Mm-hmm. At 24 starting to make better decisions. Yeah. And think things through things a little bit more

Cheryl

clearly. So interesting, particularly when you have a larger family conversations like with eight year olds. So when they have 13, 14 year old siblings and they would come to me and say, mom, they're crazy. You know, the eight year old And they're watching kind of. thought more black and white, right? Mm-hmm. Right. Because what you have to do as you're releasing your children, you have to let them go up those stairs to the upstairs brain and you want them to do it. Mm-hmm. But you're right, it's not fully developed. And so it's like people redoing their upper story. There may, you know, like there are no windows in the front bar. Right, right. And so they go up there and it's just not complete. And so it's probably

Ellen

chaos. Yeah. Because it's in the order of

Cheryl

being. Yeah. Right. Whereas the eight year old isn't going up the stairs very much. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I love learning the realism of what we can expect from our developing children. Right? Yeah. That instead of what were you thinking to walk with'em to help them. And that's where I like the book. And what we can get into is some techniques, right? And strategies for how to help them not get locked in their amygdala or downstairs. Um, and yes. What to do to develop that upstairs. Mm-hmm. That's really what we want to do is. Access them both. Right. And then develop that pfc.

Christie

Well, and you say the eight year old isn't going upstairs very often and And they are, but they kind of have kids plateau in how much freedom and responsibility we're giving them. And those teen years is where that's really escalating quickly. Yes. Yes. The amount of freedom and and responsibility they're taking on. And I was just thinking of how much easier it is if we can just. Control. Our kids have like the command and demand, I think he says, you know, rather than Yeah. Letting them explore the upstairs and find out there's a hole in the floor in this area, or, you know, this bathroom's not functional or whatever the, the lack of development is up there. It's risky. Yeah, it's risky.

Cheryl

It's really hing because we know there's a hole up there. Mm-hmm. Um, Tyler, just like

Ellen

any stairs, once you get up into the room, you're out of. Sight. Right? That's, and as a parent, you're gonna, where'd my kid go? What are they doing? You know,

Christie

that kind of idea.

Cheryl

Right. You know, you, you said about the hole in the floor. Mm-hmm. Because, huh? with our first teenager, I just thought, what. It's wrong. Yeah. What's happening? Yeah. Because let's say Monday and Tuesday maybe. Good decisions. Yeah. Figuring things out, making mature decisions, responding, and then acting like a two year old. Yes. And it was because I was expecting maturity all the way across. And Bill used the example. We had a a deck and it looked okay from the top. It was wood, but it was beginning to rot underneath and. And so sometimes like you could step on, your foot would go through, it was only three inches. Yeah. But it looked great on the top. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But that's exactly what he said. The problem is that maturity and it's the pfc. Yes. Is what we're talking about. That it just didn't develop at the same rate all the way across. Mm-hmm. and I think

Ellen

that's our expectation. Yes, it is. Somehow we think that especially by the time our kids are teenagers, they may have a lot of emotions, but it's level in their thinking. Mm-hmm. Which it isn't. Mm-hmm. You know, even the most mild mannered, logical thinking, teenagers still has the ups and downs.

Christie

Right. Well, and I think even in the younger years, we see it anytime there, you know, we're talking about the amygdala, so anytime there's, yeah. Something to panic over. And sometimes that can be Yeah. You know, something threatening my selfishness. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I, I don't want to give up my time for this, or I don't want to be home at a certain time, or I, I don't want to go to the store with you right now. Whatever. Yeah. Is panicking them is when they can be hijacked. Yes. And, and throw those tantrums and a bomb.

Cheryl

Yeah. I was gonna, you know, I, uh, had the. Pleasure of teaching a class on this, um, a couple of years ago to a number of, uh, parents at different times. And we weren't doing it from a parenting standpoint, but just for our own health standpoint. Mm-hmm. And what we talked about is a trigger, what you were just saying, something that triggers, right? Mm-hmm. And it can be a thought, it can be an event, it can be. Someone else's response. It could be anything. It could be a smell, and it triggers us Emotionally, which triggers the amygdala. Mm-hmm. And like we said, it's a short steps. It's real easy that the amygdala's triggered and then we want to learn how to deal with it. Yeah. Because we want our prefrontal cortex, we want the upstairs to be the governor to rule. And so I'm talking to grownups, all of these rules. All grownups past 25. And so laying this out and talking about what an amygdala hijack is, and I just said, so your homework this week is three times, watch and just see when you're triggered Emotionally, because I explained what a trigger's like. Mm-hmm. And when they came back next to me, they go three times during the week. I realize I'm triggered all the time. Yeah, yeah. You know, for example, one saying here, I wake up, everything is fine. I'm doing real well. Yeah. And so I get up to have some quiet alone time early in the morning. Yeah. And I'm tiptoeing, I have my cup of coffee and I'm sitting where I wanna sit, and then I hear. The kids up and she goes, trigger. Yeah. And she goes, am I emotion right? Because the amygdala doesn't say, do the wise thing, your wise ways of handling it, these are your

Christie

children. They are blessings.

Cheryl

Yeah. You know, and she said, I started out triggered and yeah. And this is an adult just becoming aware. You know, children don't know Right. What they're doing. Right. And that's what we're gonna walk through is helping them to understand this is what your downstairs is like. This is what it's like. And, and then the same with us because it's true. Uh, something happened yesterday in me and all right. Took me a while and went, oh, I am triggered. Yeah. Mm-hmm. because it hijacks. Mm-hmm. You used the word, he uses the word in the book. I was hijacked by my amygdala and late last night, I was processing, writing out, trying to figure out why am I so triggered over this? Yeah. And I couldn't even get it all out, even with my prefrontal vortex. Because I'm over 25. But even with everything that I've read here and I've studied other wise people and I've taught it, um, I was triggered. Yeah.

Christie

Well, it's still a biological truth in your brain, whether you're aware of

Cheryl

it or not, and just wanting to get to that pfc. Mm-hmm. And out of the hijack, I didn't do real well. Mm-hmm. It took me a while. I didn't sleep well last night. Mm-hmm. And I think it was part of the triggering of, um, the amygdala and the hijack is the adrenaline rush. Right. It all has to do with those hormones. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christie

Well, and being aware of all of this, you know, like you said, even over 25, when you're fully developed, it, it's hard to process. Okay, I'm, I'm being hijacked. And, and so it can give us compassion for our Yes. Our even our little ones, you know, and we're gonna talk later on through the book about how to handle different types of tantrums. But, and by compassion we're not saying everything. Everyone gets a free pass and you know, we just let'em, no. Cry it out and throw a tantrum, but the ways we can deal with it are different with this kind of information of what's actually going on. Mm-hmm. And it helps'em

Ellen

to learn as it does us about themselves. Yes. Mm-hmm. You know, cuz I think a lot of us go into adulthood and don't understand our triggers. Right? Yeah. And they're thinking what's wrong with

Christie

me or what to do when we are triggered how to, how to work through it. That's part two. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, like I said, Through trial and error ended up in some of these places with some of these tools, with some of my kids. And when they were young, you know, some of my kids really struggled with some sensory issues and, and I had to help them process, okay, you know, you're being triggered by the Chick-fil-A cow right now, you know? Wow. And I didn't know a lot of this language to use, but having compassion and understanding for where they were at that they weren't, You know, being manipulative or controlling in this kind of tantrum, they were really Yeah. Fearful and, and having to. Help them access some logic and reason. And so this, this book would've really been helpful to me to give me some

Cheryl

resources. Me too. And we talked last time about the technique of name it to tame it. Mm-hmm. With emotions. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, and what you were describing earlier is not the do get over it. Right. It wasn't just a man in a fake cow suit. Right. That's not to you, but to walk them through. And it's just a step-by-step, um, understanding. And then to use it to. Love our children well, right? Mm-hmm.

Christie

And like you were saying, Ellen, to resource them and equip them. Yes. Yeah. For their eventually adult years so that they have these tools to be healthier

Cheryl

and also, Like what you're talking about. If you know you're gonna be by Chick-fil-A, you might have been sensitive of going there, but you begin to do the different techniques. Mm-hmm. Right. Walking with them, preparing them, and I've seen, um, my children. Uh, do this so much better than I did. We didn't know, we didn't have words like self-awareness, like quit whining

Ellen

about the Chick-fil-A. It's not

Cheryl

scary. Right. And I'm really impressed cuz I see the effect on my grandchildren and my grandchildren are getting this from their grandmother, cuz I now understand it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So their parents are doing it and I go, wow, that is a leg up in life. Mm-hmm. You know, that we can talk about, we name it, and then also talk about triggers and then we do that walk. Up to the PFC upstairs. I'm so excited. Yeah.

Ellen

well, you know, and I think especially as a parent, I would've liked to have known all this stuff, not just for my children, but really for me, absolutely. Because how many times I was triggered and then that's just a downward spiral when you're trying to do deal with your children. Right? Because I'm upset and triggered and I didn't realize. Oh, what they just did

Cheryl

triggered me.

Ellen

It wasn't intentional. I had something deep in me that I had to go. Take before the Lord and say, why did this bug me? Right. And then he eventually showed me, because when you were 10, remember that happened to you? Yeah. Oh, that's

Christie

why. And they're just being children. Right? They didn't do

Ellen

anything

Christie

intentionally at all. No, that was my experience too. Just having a lot of unresolved issues from, from, yes. My upbringing and, um, my girls told me the other day, they were having a conversation about me that I didn't know about. And, but it was good. They were, they said, mom is just so much healthier now than she used to be. And I was just so grateful. Yeah. You know, that they were able to say that. Just, I, of course, I wish I would've known a lot of things earlier, but, um, you know, you two ladies have been such examples to me of never stop learning and growing and thank you, and applying those things in your life currently. Even not just sitting in regret of what you didn't do. Right. Right. In the past. Right.

Ellen

And really that's how we have to look at life. You know, whatever your religious thoughts are. Mm-hmm. But every day is a new day. I always think of the verse where the Lord says, my grace is made new. Every morning. Mm. Wow Yeah. It really is. Yeah. And you know, you can start over. That's

Christie

so

Cheryl

good. That's great. Okay. Mm-hmm. I'm an application person, I wanna understand it, but I really love the application so. I'm gonna give you the first homework that I've ever given our listeners who talked about that class. And so if you wanna start applying this, if this is not something you're already tracking in really well listeners, let me encourage you, watch in the next couple of days and see if you can recognize. Being triggered. Yeah. You know, that's important. Maybe try it once or twice this week. Yeah. Just watch and realize, oh, that's a emotional trigger. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's my amygdala firing off. And uh, then we'll come back and talk about some helpful. techniques, next time. Okay. That's great. Sounds good. parents, remember, hang in there. Keep loving, keep persevering because it's worth it.

I hope you're enjoying these discussions. As you've heard, the three of us are getting so much out of this book. I love how Ellen summarizes what we're talking about with these two different parts of our brain that basically our amygdala, our emotional brain, lives in the basement. And there's a set of stairs that goes upstairs to where our Prefrontal cortex, the mature thinking brain, lives. So we have to help ourselves and our children learn when and how to take those stares. We'd love to hear your thoughts on dealing with emotions with your kids. Simply text us, contact, at TheParentingPodcast. com or DM us on social media. Just in case you missed it, the book we're discussing with you is The Whole Brain Child by Drs. Siegel and Bryson. Next time, we continue developing this useful understanding about our brains and get very practical. Answering the question, Okay, so is this an upstairs or a downstairs tantrum? Looking forward to it on the Parenting Podcast.