When Love and Agreement Part Ways | Ep. 214

You spend years pouring your values into your children. Then one day they begin sorting through them for themselves. How do you hold onto what matters without letting go of each other?

Transcript

Christie 0:00

You want them free thinking as long as they're free thinking on the path that you would've walked.

Speaker 0:06

This is one of those conversations that usually finds us later, when the goal is no longer getting your child to listen to you. It's figuring out how to stay close when they don't. I'm Cheryl Lange. Let's talk about that

Christie 0:35

Cheryl, I just, I realize that. Parenting is just hard for everyone all the time. Just what I'm decided.

Cheryl 0:42

Okay. It's episode concluded. We're good.

Christie 0:46

Yeah. State of the Union has been given, uh, yeah. I was talking with some friends and they have varying ages of kids and their families and uhhuh, but one family, you know, coming into the preteen years. The other family has one at the front end, one at the back end, Uhhuh, and we were just talking about. Um, different hopes and dreams we might have for our Yeah, they might have for their kids. Mine are all, You know, they're all grown, but, uh. You know, one of them said something to the effect, well hopefully when they're that age they'll X, Y, z and you know, I'm sitting here thinking, well, hopefully, you know, but hopefully doesn't always pan out the way that we want it to in varying different ways. Yeah. Um, and I was just thinking about the conversations that you and I have had of Yeah. How, how to navigate all those conversations with our kids as they're. Freethinking adults. Wow. And starting to, even before they're adults, you know, they're, they're starting to observe the world and engage with the world in new ways.

Cheryl 1:51

Were they talking about just behavioral issues? But I'm thinking what you're saying, it was more about morality, sexuality. Yes.

Christie 2:00

Yes.

Cheryl 2:00

Faith values,

Christie 2:02

right.

Cheryl 2:02

All of that.

Christie 2:03

Yes. They were just thinking the way that they have invested in their kids based on their values and their hopes of what that would produce in their adult lives.

Cheryl 2:12

Oh boy. Did I swallow that lie?

Christie 2:14

Yeah.

Cheryl 2:15

You know, and when I say that, I'm not saying all my children are. Radically in a different place from our deeply held values, right, and belief system. But the lie was, I thought. Uh, they were like containers, sort of.

Christie 2:35

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 2:35

You know, like you've got your water bottle here that if I just take the top off and I pour the right mixture, I word it right. I live it out right,. Mm-hmm. And I just keep pouring it in there that I'll just fill it up and they might kind of maybe shiver a little bit and then they would just get right in line because I've poured all the right stuff in there so that they align with. My deepest held values and beliefs. Right?

Christie 2:59

But this water has a thick steel, metal, rigid boundary holding it in place, and we don't have that kind of control over our independent children.

Cheryl 3:11

No, you know, we kind of talk about this from a lot of different angles. Yeah. About different things, about different areas of training or, um, our expectations. Mm-hmm. But I will say, when I think about all the people I'm in conversation with, particularly that have teens and above. And I am trying to think, I really know

Carol 3:39

just a few who have Their finger on the pulse of it, that all their children are actually walking on the path that they would want them to, whether it's their moral choices or um. Their faith or their values. And I'm not talking about like, are you gonna be, you know, vegetarian or, keto. I'm talking about the deeper things in life. Mm-hmm. And I would say. That that is the most repetitive conversation I have with parents that are in the releasing process or That have released their children is it's this grief that their children are not walking in truth the way those committed parents see it. They're not reflecting their values and they're very concerned about it.

Christie 4:28

Yeah. Yeah. And in ways that, You've invested in, in those values your whole life. Yes. And that can be really hard. And then sometimes it's things that, um, like you're saying aren't that important, but it feels personal. Rejection even though they may have taken a, a different on-ramp in life. Yeah.

Cheryl 4:49

That's,

Christie 4:49

you know, something that feels just. Silly, you know, like you said, vegetarian or, you know, I don't shop at these stores or whatever. It, it starts to feel personal because it's still a rejection of something that you're living out or that you've attached to.

Cheryl 5:05

I think you're right, and whatever it is. It takes a while for these parents to start talking about it. Yeah. 'cause they're concerned because even just when their children are doubting it.

Christie 5:15

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 5:16

Not even actively embracing something.

Christie 5:18

Right.

Cheryl 5:19

The parents are, All taking it personally. It feels like a rejection of me as a

Carol 5:25

person.

Christie 5:25

Right.

Cheryl 5:26

Rather than a value. Yes. Particularly when there's passion involved in it. Mm-hmm. And a lot of times, particularly as teens move towards being 20 and in their twenties in particular, there's a lot of passion. I mean, I was passionate about what I believed in. Oh yeah. You know, and that's why you want to pull that age into, movements and protests and getting them to support a candidate or not. Or, 'cause

Christie 5:52

they've got the fuel.

Cheryl 5:53

They've got the fuel, they have this zeal. Mm-hmm. And they're. So passionate, which is a beautiful thing.

Christie 5:59

Sure.

Cheryl 6:00

Um, however, it feels a little weaponized against us. Mm-hmm. And matter of fact, it might be verbalized in a way that's sort of weaponized against us.

Christie 6:10

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 6:11

And then we start taking it really personally.

Christie 6:13

Right. And I think that's where we kind of have to check on ourselves and say, why am I so attached to this, this. Ideal or this value? Why am I feeling that that's personal? You know,

Cheryl 6:28

I think the reason

Carol 6:29

it feels Personal is 'cause our identities are wrapped in it. There can be more superficial things.

Christie 6:34

Yeah.

Cheryl 6:35

But it's our identity when you're talking about morality and belief systems, values, faith. I think our identity should be molded around what we believe about these deepest held truths.

Christie 6:50

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 6:51

And so then when they question it, I have to be mature enough into the place where I don't feel personally attacked.

Christie 7:00

Yeah.

Cheryl 7:01

I mean, I have not done this well. And I've done it well, and I'm amazed at the places I did it well, and I'm trying to go back to those particular times. One of the biggest mistakes we made is we tried to make thinking people,

Christie 7:17

right?

Cheryl 7:18

And so we spent our lives talking about thoughts and ideas and processing and how do you evaluate things, and we started with unimportant things, and then of course, then we also wanted to expand that to these crucial areas of beliefs.

Christie 7:35

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 7:36

And then talk about it and. It was great when we were talking about it and evaluating and discussing it, but it was when the doubts started rising and maybe they were moving away. From the direction I wanted that's when I felt threatened.

Christie 7:55

Yeah.

Cheryl 7:55

And I wanted No, no, no, no, no. Don't, don't move away from it. Circle around it, but then always come back to the conclusion I want you to come to. Right?

Christie 8:04

Yeah. You want them free thinking as long as they're free thinking on the path that you would've walked

Christie (2) 8:08

gone

8:08

Down.

Cheryl 8:09

That's exactly right. But the issue is if we are not talking with them, if they're not engaging and questioning and processing with us, they're going somewhere else to do it.

Christie 8:21

Mm-hmm. And.

Cheryl 8:23

I want to be a part of that conversation, you know? And so not to control it, but I want to be a part of that conversation. Let's talk

8:31

about

Christie 8:32

it just for the sake of relationship.

Cheryl 8:33

Absolutely. Yeah. There we go.

Christie 8:35

Yeah.

Cheryl 8:35

In that relationship. And so I can think of, uh, how many times you want me to tell you that I blew it, but one in particular, and it was, uh, a really big issue and, christie, I did not handle it well at first at all. Um, because 100%. I wasn't even thinking about my child. If you asked me, it would've been completely me.

Christie 9:02

Mm.

Cheryl 9:03

I saw it not as a value or morality or a thought system, or an embracing of a political view. It was a really deep thing, and it was complete rejection of me.

Christie 9:16

Mm.

Cheryl 9:17

And I reacted accordingly.

Christie 9:19

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 9:21

Which wasn't good. And so. Not surprisingly put a real rift in our relationship.

Christie 9:27

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 9:28

And I love it because I had good conversations with people who are wiser than I am.

Christie 9:33

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 9:34

And they sat with me and talked and helped me process it through to see what I just told you. It's not about you. This is a person trying to figure out their walk in life.

Christie 9:45

Yeah.

Cheryl 9:46

And this instance I'm thinking of, they were old enough to make their decisions in this area. Yeah. It's not like they were eight years old.

Christie 9:53

Right.

Cheryl 9:53

And I was all about me.

Christie 9:55

Yeah. What are some of the, um, responses you had that you look for now to know if you're responding? Focused on yourself. Does that make sense? Like Yeah.

Cheryl 10:08

For one thing, when I'm doing it the right way, I invite the questions.

Christie 10:14

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 10:14

And might say something, wow, I can see how you might wonder about that.

Christie 10:20

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 10:20

And so I become inquisitive with them. So what do you think about that? Okay. And it has to be safe enough

Carol 10:29

that If I ask questions, they don't feel attacked.

Christie 10:32

Mm.

Cheryl 10:33

does this make sense?

Christie 10:35

Yeah. So what are some of the ways that you handled it wrong that show that you were focused more on yourself than

Cheryl 10:40

them?

Christie 10:40

How

Cheryl 10:40

long do we have today? Okay. Because I didn't even always say it out loud. Yeah. Okay. But our children are students of us. And they can watch our face. They see our responses and they've also been around us studying us their whole lives.

Christie 10:54

Yeah.

Cheryl 10:55

And they have watched how I have treated and acted

Carol 10:58

towards Other people who were making similar choices, maybe and I mean, when I'm not doing it right. I've actually said, so I wasted all this time that we talked about these things and I tried to live them out in integrity before you.

Christie 11:15

Mm.

Cheryl 11:15

And you just don't even care. Mm-hmm. I mean, who's that all about?

Christie 11:18

Yeah, that's

Cheryl 11:19

good. Or the questions get a little sticky. So I start giving 'em sort of soundbite answers instead of again, being interested in saying, Hey, that's really interesting. You wanna talk about that some more? What do you think about that?

Christie 11:36

Yeah.

Cheryl 11:37

Instead, I jumped to the conclusion.

Christie 11:39

Hmm.

Cheryl 11:40

Because out of fear. I wanted to make sure they come to the conclusion I wanted them to come to. Right. And so out of fear, instead of let's have a really genuine conversation, I'm having a conversation where I am trying to veer them directly. Mm-hmm. To come to the conclusion I want or and let's just make it something as

Carol 12:01

simple as something political that they're actually taking a different political stance than I.

Christie 12:06

Sure.

Cheryl 12:07

And instead of really having good conversation about it, I start listing all the reasons they're wrong and all the reasons I'm Right. Building

Christie 12:15

a defense.

Cheryl 12:16

Right. A defense.

Christie 12:18

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 12:19

That great thing that says, um, we need to have positions instead of sides.

Christie 12:24

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 12:24

And I would say that I sided up.

Christie 12:27

Yeah.

Cheryl 12:28

Instead of saying, well, what's your position? How do you feel about that? Let's talk about it.

Christie 12:32

And when you choose a side, you're choosing an opposer. You're choosing to oppose

Cheryl 12:37

It's us and them.

Christie 12:37

Yeah.

Cheryl 12:38

That's right. Mm-hmm. I mean, just thinking literally. If we have a wall, you have to choose a side.

Christie 12:44

Yeah.

Cheryl 12:45

So if you're not on my side of the wall, we are against each other

Christie 12:49

and,

Cheryl 12:49

and we are divided.

Christie 12:49

And then you're instant enemies, not you're their biggest fan.

Cheryl 12:53

And how can we do relationship? Mm-hmm. When I treat my children like this or anybody else? Does that make sense?

Christie 12:59

It does. It does. And I'm, I'm going back to the word fear that you said, that so much of that is out of fear. And I'm thinking, what am I, what am I afraid of in that moment? And you know, for me, I think it's that all my efforts were wasted. Yep. You know, all the time I spent training my kids, teaching my kids, pouring my life out to show them my values, that all of that time was just. For nothing. Maybe fear of what other people will think.

Cheryl 13:28

Oh

Christie 13:28

yeah. About my kids.

Cheryl 13:29

Oh, it's horrible.

Christie 13:30

Or about me probably more than anything. You know, what kind of mom will they think I am? Um, fear that they're gonna go down this dark path and it's gonna end, you know, I catastrophize Yeah. Where I take it to the end result and then I just have to remember what it was like when I was that age. Like I, I had all kinds of crazy thoughts that fizzled in due time. Yeah. You know, and, and not, and I'm not saying that my, all my kids' thoughts are crazy. I'm just saying that different, you're trying on different hats. You're trying on different ideals, different ideologies, different thoughts about the world, and some of that just has to run its course.

Cheryl 14:09

But it's a really healthy process. Otherwise, we're just rubber stamping.

Christie 14:14

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 14:15

And we just rubber stamp all the way through

Carol 14:19

One of the best transformations in me in the last 10 years, I would say, has come out of these conversations with my kids.

Christie 14:28

Mm.

Cheryl 14:28

Because we've had really good conversations when I'm doing it, right.

Christie 14:32

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 14:33

And we go back and forth. Well, what do you think about this? Well, look at this. I'm thinking about this I think of the word privilege. Uh, about 10 years ago started conversations with my kids and they were using the word privilege and how impacting that is. Well, mom, you're just saying that as a person of privilege.

Christie 14:50

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 14:51

And. Not doing it right. I took offense and I started defending when I did it right. I

Carol 14:58

asked Good questions. We talk about that all the time here. Mm-hmm. I ask good questions. I go, so what do you mean by privilege? And so they started talking about it and saying, look how this. Affects this area of our culture, or look at these marginalized people and you know, we have to think about when we say something from our viewpoint of privilege. But it was just a fabulous conversation I'm using as an example, and they opened my eyes to something I wasn't aware of, and I'm so thankful we did that. But Christie so much in the past, I wouldn't have handled it well like that. Yeah. Because I started thinking immediately, no, I have to lead this conversation and I have these particular arguments and

Christie 15:43

they need to end up exactly where I land on this. That's right. Yeah.

Cheryl 15:46

And. Uh, that conversation and subsequent ones, I'm really pleased because what it's done is open up that bridge.

Christie 15:57

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 15:58

And my kids and I are walking back and forth other people too, but we're talking about in parenting.

Christie 16:03

Yeah.

Cheryl 16:03

That we can walk and back and forth across the bridge, and keep our relationship. And when they're younger, it can't be quite as open as when they get more mature.

Christie 16:14

Yeah. Well, and as we get more mature,

Cheryl 16:16

absolutely.

Christie 16:17

Because I think the bridge is a little bit of a living, breathing organism. It

16:21

sure

Christie 16:22

is because the times that I. Step out of line or just speak candidly when I should have been more thoughtful.

Cheryl 16:29

Yep.

Christie 16:29

I lose some of that trust with my kids at times, and that's rightfully so. You know, and then I have to do some things, you know, over time I can earn some of that trust back.

Cheryl 16:40

And

Christie 16:40

apologies.

Cheryl 16:42

One of the things that I noticed when my children were closer to that 20 age when they were younger. Either going to it or coming off of it. As they developed their own heads of steam about trying to figure their life out and being in control of their lives. Mm-hmm. And their values. Several times they would ask me questions and I

Carol 17:04

realized They were intentionally phrasing something to poke at me. Baiting bait. Mm-hmm. They were trying to bait an argument.

Christie 17:13

Yeah.

Cheryl 17:13

It was interesting because when I was younger and they were younger, I got pulled into those

Christie 17:19

right.

Cheryl 17:20

And they weren't really serious about it. They were just trying on that hat a little bit and then trying to go, can I get a rile outta mom about

Christie 17:29

this? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 17:30

And I'm so thankful to learn from that. And one of the things I learned in that age period. Uh, not

Carol 17:38

being Disingenuous but I'm a little cautious what I choose to walk into and like you're saying, getting pulled into something, trying to be a wiser about what I'm gonna say and maybe actually learning to be quiet. Yeah. Say that's really interesting. I don't know. I'll have to think about that some more.

Christie 17:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember, um, I won't say which daughter, but I'll just say it was early in my experiences of raising adult children, I had somebody come to the table with some real, conviction about the flat earth theory. And I remember spiraling from that conversation thinking. Oh my word. Where did I go wrong? Yeah. And now I just laugh at it because I'm like what you're saying. It was, it was more bait than anything. This is a person who likes to debate anyway. Yeah. So they would tell you that the sky was red just to have a good debate. Yeah. But in the moment, I was early in that. Realizing, oh, this is a different season of, of parenting. And I think the thing I've been thinking a lot about, and it's been probably one of the bigger surprises of adult life for me, is that it's not just child development, it's actually human development. Oh, now tell What

18:55

do

Cheryl 18:55

you mean by that?

Christie 18:56

Well, I've just been thinking about how, you know, my kids are 20 to 27 now. Mm-hmm. And I'm 47. Yeah. And I'm just as much developing Yes. As we all were when they were two to seven and I was 27. Yes. You know, and so the math on, that's probably wrong, but you know what, I'm close enough saying. Yeah. Um, just we're all still growing up together Yeah. In life until we're 97. And, and just embracing that and trusting the process of it all.

Cheryl 19:28

Well, and because mine are a little older and I'm a little more seasoned mm-hmm. In making my mistakes and. Maturing. Mm-hmm. Um, I will tell you, it is one of the most potent. Tools that I have in my tool bag is to be honest with my kids and not be threatened and be willing to talk about things, particularly when they know we have different positions.

Christie 19:53

Yes.

Cheryl 19:54

And that I'm actually genuinely interested, like we go back to the conversation about privilege, um, really talking about it, and then even other things where we come down in different places politically. Mm-hmm. Whatever it is. And my kids have come back and said, wow, mom, you know, we're just amazed that you are willing to talk about it. And they see. That their questions, their probingtheir trying on maybe having a firm deep commitment. They see that I'm showing them respect as a person.

Christie 20:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Cheryl 20:34

That we can actually talk about it and I don't feel threatened. Yeah. And see when they were younger, I think a lot

Carol 20:40

I thought For Your children to wrestle with an issue or question an issue, or having doubt about their faith or life, whatever it is, that that feels like the final chapter.

Christie 20:52

Right.

Cheryl 20:52

And that it's closed door

Carol 20:54

but, the Story's not over yet,

Christie 20:56

right?

Cheryl 20:57

And the relationship's not over. I want to keep that relationship. Particularly if we're walking in different directions. Mm. It's more important. If we were all walking the same direction, it would be easier to reach out and hold their hand if we're walking in separate directions in our values. I want to work so hard to keep the relationship. When it's not as easy to reach them. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Christie 21:21

It does. And I think there's probably always, um, you know, you say walking in separate directions, it would probably be. A rarity to not be able to find something. Yeah. Of overlap in your lives and in your value systems. I'll say it this way, in our family, we all differ in the extent and, the lengths we're willing to go to, to take care of the earth.

Cheryl 21:47

Yes, that's it. Yes, yes.

Christie 21:48

Um, we all care about good stewardship of the earth and the resources we have, but some are willing to go out of their way more than others to do those things. But we all do, you know, care about being mindful of, just being wise with our resources. And so that's where we land. We. Find that little sliver of space that we can overlap on and say, Hey, did you hear about this product? Or yeah, hey, did you hear about this resource? And, and find those times that you can agree. And that's a silly, you know, example. But, there's always gonna be common space and common ground that we can stand in that's safe.

Cheryl 22:24

See, and I like it 'cause I liked hearing the way you said, hey. That's what they're going to hold onto.

Christie 22:31

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 22:32

Is you are loving them so much that. They're knowing you don't agree with whatever, it's right. Like maybe they won't have a car because they're concerned about the emissions. Mm-hmm. And you have some big, huge hunker that you drive.

Christie 22:47

Right.

Carol 22:47

but.

Cheryl 22:48

They know you differ, and yet they see you reaching across and saying, Hey, look at this. This was so interesting. Did you see this? Look, I was reading this. Wow. What do you think about this? And then what you're doing is. We're on the same side of loving each other. Yes, walking with each other. We value one another even if we disagree, and even if we continue to disagree on some of these. Uh, deeply held beliefs.

Christie 23:15

Yeah. And if it is something that you can find common value or common ground in, learn from your kids on something. Yeah. I know my kids love it when I say, Hey, tell me more about that, and ask those questions that you're saying, ask more good questions.

Cheryl 23:29

That's what I'm saying, I have gotten so many, whatever you call them, when you play video games and they give you more lives or Right. You know, stars, whatever it is that you can use them. Asking questions, being interested in them. I mean, it has to be sincere.

Christie 23:44

Sure. It can't be condemning or belittling. Condescending, I guess is the condescending, like going back to the flat earth stuff, Uhhuh.

Cheryl 23:52

Wow. Your response to that was so important. Because if, you've got to be kidding me.

Christie 23:58

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 23:59

If we say it with our words, our actions, our questions, that's something we have to back up on. I apologize

Carol 24:05

for later. But. It is just showing dignity and value of them.

Christie 24:10

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 24:10

Even when we land at a different place. And that's what I would, again, encourage younger parents to not be afraid of the conversations, to engage it because you wanna be a part of it.

Christie 24:22

Right.

Cheryl 24:23

Let's be a part of that conversation so that we can be a part of each other's lives.

Christie 24:27

Yeah. And start using these approaches young in building a reputation with your kids. You know, even when they're young, that they'll know, you know, that you're interested in the things they're interested in. Right.

Cheryl 24:38

One of the things as we're closing here, I heard someone say, in this kind of thing, particularly when it's a deeply held value and belief and faith is that we. Need to protect the relationship and the connection and keep that open value that more than what the conclusion's gonna be.

Christie 25:02

Hmm.

Cheryl 25:02

So even if they come to a conclusion that they hold the rest of their lives

Christie 25:07

mm-hmm.

Cheryl 25:08

That we have chosen connection and our relationship and not let anything else intrude on that, and that we can walk together in that. The big mistake that I made in all this is I was always concerned about the conclusion and what I didn't

Carol 25:29

realize at first, Worrying about the conclusion.

Christie 25:34

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 25:35

Whatever that might be. as more important than valuing and protecting the relationship.

Christie 25:40

Yeah,

Cheryl 25:40

and for me to protect the relationship means I need to do

Carol 25:44

wise, loving Things from my side. and then I would love to be an influence in what conclusion they come to, but. It's the value of the other person and showing them, I value our relationship so much. I want to hear what you believe and we can agree to disagree.

Christie 26:01

Mm-hmm.

Cheryl 26:01

But I love you.

Christie 26:03

Yeah.

Cheryl 26:03

That's hard to do when they're forming and you feel like they're a jet taking off in a direction and you don't know where they're going.

Christie 26:10

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. You know, just remembering that, you love your child.

Cheryl 26:17

That what we're developing is the human being. Yeah.

Christie 26:20

Yeah. And at the end of our time, bringing them to adulthood, that at some point we become peers. We become two human beings just walking this planet together. And, we wanna treat all people with value and respect, including our kids.

Cheryl 26:36

That's exactly right. And it's okay to disagree.

Christie 26:39

Yeah. We're individuals.

Cheryl 26:41

We're individuals, and they are developing into who they're gonna become. I wanna be a part of that.

Christie 26:47

Yeah.

Cheryl 26:48

And I don't want to fear the process and I want to walk along with that person that's becoming mm-hmm. If that makes sense.

Christie 26:56

Mm-hmm. It does.

Cheryl 26:58

Okay. This is really good.

Christie 26:59

Hard but good.

Cheryl 27:01

Yes, it sure is. So, hey parents, remember, hang in there. Keep loving, keep persevering because it's worth it.

Speaker 2 27:13

One of the hardest things about parenting older kids is realizing that their story belongs to them. We still care. We still hope. We still pray. But we don't get to write every chapter. What we can do is keep the door open, keep reaching across the table, keep making room for conversation If you'd like to reach out, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on social media or at contact@theparentingpodcast.com.