175. David Garrison: Navigating the Buy-In Crisis!

Fire Forged Leader Podcast | Hosted by Steve Baumgartner

Are you a high-performing man who feels like you're constantly forced to choose between thriving in your career and being present at home? You're not alone—and you're not broken.

In this episode, leadership strategist Dave Garrison dives into the buy-in crisis gripping today’s workforce—and why it’s directly tied to your personal leadership struggles. From burnout and disengagement to managing generational shifts and navigating union environments, this conversation lays out a blueprint for leading with purpose, building trust, and creating buy-in—both at work and at home.

💥 What You’ll Learn Inside This Episode:

✅ Why employee engagement is at a 10-year low—and how it parallels struggles at home
✅ How the new workforce values purpose over perks—and how to lead them with emotional intelligence
✅ Tactical shifts from command-and-control to collaborative leadership that gets real results
✅ How to engage managers to spark higher performance across your entire team
✅ Why leaders are forged through experience, not born with titles
✅ Communication strategies to lead better—even in unionized environments or during downsizing
✅ Why co-creating performance reviews can build trust and reduce turnover
✅ The leadership question that changes everything: “What gets in your way of being great?”
✅ Why men like you can’t afford to ignore the connection between workplace engagement and homefront respect

📘 Grab the Book: Buy-In Advantage from Dave Garrison!

Learn the proven framework behind everything discussed in this episode.
 👉 Get your copy at www.buyinbook.com

⏱️ Chapter Breakdown:

00:00 — The Buy-In Crisis in America
 02:53 — Leaders Are Forged, Not Born
 06:09 — The New Workforce: What They Really Want
 08:56 — The Shift: From Authority to Authenticity
 11:57 — Collective Input: Your Secret Weapon
 15:02 — Real-World Engagement Wins
 17:55 — Driving Change in Big Organizations
 22:33 — Why Engaged Managers Change Everything
 23:35 — Leading in Unionized Teams
 26:06 — Getting Executive Buy-In
 30:21 — Downsizing With Integrity
 33:21 — Redesigning Performance Reviews
 36:06 — Fixing the Attendance Problem
 39:22 — Final Thoughts & Resources

🎧 Listen Now on the Fire Forged Leader Podcast

Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and all major platforms.

Transcript

Dave Garrison (00:00)
You know, we've got a buy-in crisis right now in America. Buy-in means people show up with all their enthusiasm. I know on Friday night, if I go to the high school football stadium in Lincoln, Nebraska and watch the people in the stands, there's going to be a lot of enthusiasm. I know for certain if I go Monday morning, I'm going to see those same people get out of their cars and leave all that passion behind.

Leaders are not born in a womb. They're forged through heat, pressure, and a whole lot of sweat. The Fire Forge Leader podcast serves the audience through exploring leadership at work, in the community, and with the family, using the practical perspective and real life experiences from the host, Steve Baumgartner, and his guests in the Forge. Now, it's time to enter the Forge.

with the Fireforged Leader.

Steve Baumgartner (01:01)
Welcome everybody back to the Fire Forge Leader podcast. Today we have Dave Garrison on the show. Dave isn't just a leadership strategist. He's a battle tested CEO with over 25 years in the trenches. He advises both public and private companies across the US and abroad, including heavy hitters like Ameritrade. Back in 2013, he co-founded Garrison Growth with one goal, and that was to help organizations.

from little scrappy startups to global corporations to cut through the noise and get results that actually move the needle by engaging their teams. Dave's been in the Young Presidents organization since 1993 and he runs workshops for thousands of elite CEOs. Today he chairs that organization in the Leadership Development Network, leading over 30,000 top level executives and sharpen in their edge. And to just go a little bit farther,

He's also been tapped into by CNBC, CNN, and the Wall Street Journal for insight into leadership communications and whatever it takes to lead a team when the pressure's on. And Dave's also a student of the game. And this is probably the most important part. He never stops learning. He's got his MBA from Harvard, and he's trained in EOS, neuro-linguistic programming, and also disc. Even after decades at the top, he still believes in leveling up. So after all that, Dave,

Welcome to the show. I'm not sure we got much else to talk about.

Dave Garrison (02:31)
That's a lot to live up to. Please don't hold it against me. Thank you, Steve.

Steve Baumgartner (02:35)
You're welcome. I didn't mention and I want to mention just right up here out of the gate so that we don't forget about it. You also just recently wrote a book that releases in June if my memory serves me right. June 3rd. June 3rd, two days before my birthday. you know, if I get a package in the mail, you know.

Dave Garrison (02:53)
You'll know what's in the package. The book is the buy-in advantage. And here's the deal on the buy-in advantage. You know, we've got a buy-in crisis right now in America. Buy-in means people show up with all their enthusiasm. I know on Friday night, if I go to the high school football stadium in Lincoln, Nebraska and watch the people in the stands, there's going to be a lot of enthusiasm. I know for certain.

If I go Monday morning, I'm going to see those same people get out of their cars and leave all that passion behind and show up and just say, what would you like me to do, Steve? Glad to do what you want. And that is a loss. It's a waste of human potential. It is a crisis. And that's what the book is about. It's what leaders do to get out of that and to bring people in to creating solutions together. And that's what caused me to write the book was to say, this is not the leader's fault.

People have never been shown how to bring out the best in human beings because what we believe and what we say, all of us are smarter than any of us. I may have more experience, I may have different experience, but to go together, we can do a lot better than me just saying, Steve, here's what I want you to do. First, I want you to do this, that, and the other, which is great, but it limits the organization.

Steve Baumgartner (04:06)
I would also say with that, I mean, you brought up a really good point that we have to change in there to get that buy-in, but we also come from something, right? So we almost have to be deprogrammed from, you know, the previous generations that came before us in leadership.

Dave Garrison (04:24)
You know, it used to be that the average American had a seventh grade education. so therefore we had to explain everything to be done, how it was to be done and tell people what to do. Turns out the education level of the workforce is way up. And more importantly, people have tools now like YouTube.

or chat GBT and they can figure out stuff on their own. So the leader is totally, totally in a glass house. You cannot hide and people are going to judge what it is you do, particularly if they don't agree with it, which is further destruction of the work workforce culture. And it's not anything you could say, don't judge me, I'm in charge. Or if you don't like it, leave. That's great, but it doesn't help us get better results. And the whole question is how do I use human beings to improve?

the results of an organization, and at the same time, a benefit, allow people to feel better about the work they do and the people that they do it with. And this crisis is now, for a couple of reasons, Gallup just came out with data that says we're at a 10-year low in engagement. And for 30 or 40 years, engagement as they measure it has been at 33, 34, 35%, like a third of people. What a waste. But the current crisis is because of new generation in the workforce.

You've heard it, I've heard it. These people are lazy. They need to bear down and just do the work. Well, they said that about our generation too. So let's get over that and let's say they just express themselves differently. And important to this generation is having a clear understanding of the purpose of the organization. Like why bother doing this other than making money? Like how are we contributing to a greater good? And I don't mean social altruism. I'm not talking communism or socialism. I'm talking about what

How do we benefit the world because we are in this business? They want to know about that. They want to know about values and know they can align with the values of the organization and they want to have impact. Meaning if we're going to put that many hours in, allow my voice to be heard doesn't mean you do what I say, allow my voice to be heard. So new generation is one of the crisis factors. A second one is during COVID, people had a lot of time to ask questions like, is it worth it?

Is this job worth it worth giving up my kids or putting my kids in daycare or is it worth doing it a, you know, 40 minute commute to work or what will I find when I get there? And do the executives really care? It caused people to wonder a lot of questions they didn't have time to think about for. And then the third change is the disruption of certainty.

pick up today's headlines, different than last week's headlines. Two weeks ago, it was a different crisis. We just didn't know all those crisis exist. And now we're being bombarded like a lightning storm of crises and creating uncertainty. So leaders have the opportunity to create certainty, to set up systems, to allow people to have impact that don't bring the business to a halt, but actually generate better outcomes and to address

values and purpose head on and use them every single day in how we prioritize and make decisions. So that's the crisis and there's opportunity and hope.

Steve Baumgartner (07:37)
Absolutely. So going back to the change aspect, so we have a leader, my position, right? Just round in the corner to be 50 years old. And you've learned under this different leadership style, Boomers, Gen X, whatever it was. And it was that command control type style. Sure. And they hear your message, Dave, and they go, you know what? That makes a lot of sense. What's the first step to making that change?

Dave Garrison (08:02)
If it makes sense, that's good. I would say one of the first things is to consider that your experience should feed your questions, not the answers. And let me give you an example. We have been modeled by those generations before us. It has been modeled to us that what we do is we are to answer questions. What do you want me to do about blank?

What has been modeled to us is we say, well, what you ought to do is, you know, in my experience, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's really well intended and it cuts the knees out of the organization being able to scale. An alternative is to use your experience to ask questions. For example, it might go like this. I'm really curious to know what it is you think we should do. No matter what they say, resist the temptation to judge what they say. And what you want to do is say,

That's interesting. What else did you consider or what allowed you to know that that is a great solution? And then they're going to lay out for you how they think and your opportunity as a leader is to strengthen their thinking muscle based on your experience. And you do that by asking questions. For example, well, you know, that's an interesting solution, Steve. I wonder what would happen if we didn't have any additional budget to bring in that resource. What would you do then? So you're actually

training them in thinking and leadership as they ask you a question based on your experience. So we don't want to throw out your experience. We want to flip the style. So that's number one. Number two, recognize in addition to your opportunity to ask instead of tell is to recognize that we've all got a blind spot in our six position. We can't see behind us. I'm a pilot. Six o'clock. I can't see. I know I can't see.

I don't always remember, can't see there, but together the two of us will have a very different interpretation of any data or any situation. And if we get six of us in a room, we will get different interpretations and be able to teach each other what the real world looks like. And in the book in chapter three, which is available on a download, if you want to just download this chapter, it says, here's the assessment your team can take on their own.

to size up your current situation and where the opportunities are. And that allows you to collectively say, okay, collectively we think that we could really attack this and this as low-hanging fruit. And you know what? All these solutions cost absolute zero except for time and intention. And so two things to do, recognize you've got a six and a team is smarter than you are, as smart as you are, and you leverage your experience through questions, not answers.

Steve Baumgartner (10:47)
Two things that I picked up while you were talking there that just kind of on the peripheral. But first thing is, is, you know, there's a lot of times when we bring a team together and we, you know, go through the exercise of, you know, writing down their experience on a board, 10 years, 12 years, five years, you know, what have you, three months. And then that's the end of it. We discounted after that. So that's, I picked that up, you know, just by thinking about how people usually address teams, then they go beyond and start preaching at them.

Second thing is more of a question. You mentioned six is your dynamic for a team. And just my ADHD brain here, I started thinking about a clock and you said six and know, 12 o'clock and all that stuff. 360 degrees and how perfectly six designs in there. Is that by design or a viewing angle or anything like that?

Dave Garrison (11:35)
You know, I'd like to tell you, well, Harvard Business School, it's not. Here's what six, six on a team comes from this idea. You know, the question is, if you have some other couples from church over for dinner, how many people can you have around the table at dinner until multiple conversations naturally arise?

Steve Baumgartner (11:55)
would say that it's probably six at best.

Dave Garrison (11:57)
If you have eight, you're likely to have two or three conversations going on, which is not a thing because the chatter is wonderful, makes your heart warm in a business setting. Not so great to have multiple conversations simultaneously. So the idea of six is if you can create cells of six, maybe seven, if you push it, you're able to have one conversation without leaving people out. One of the things we see, or one of the things we know about business meetings are the biggest waste of time. Not because that's our intention. And there's a chapter in the book that talks about.

at the end of the wasted time meeting. But one of the things we know is we want to get every idea on the table because that's perfect conflict. Where conflict is we strike things together. Hard to be heard when first of all, you haven't had a chance to consider your own idea before the first person blurts out their answer. And if your idea is like, well, we were there eight minutes ago and I never got a chance to share the idea. You're not attached emotionally to the outcome.

And we want to make sure that the outcome is our collective outcome. That's not a consensus. Consensus is not a great thing. What is great is every idea is heard and collectively we decide which one best fits what it is we're trying to do. So the number six is about, this is the number of people we can have and still make sure everybody gets heard. Because when people get heard, they'll buy in.

to whatever the solution is, even if it's not theirs. It doesn't matter if it's theirs or not. It matters that they had impact, in the words of this gen Z.

Steve Baumgartner (13:28)
I like that. If you come at it from that angle as well, everybody can contribute to that one idea once that they believe in it, right? Yeah.

Dave Garrison (13:37)
I was just, I was in Colorado Springs on Saturday with a group of really talented CEOs and they were trying to create a strategic plan and they did for the YPO Colorado chapter. And these are the leaders selected by other leaders. So pretty heady group. And what we did recognizing there were 12 people around the table, first of all, we shared with them the data before the meeting because half of us think about stuff overnight. So if you pass out data at a meeting and then say, okay, what do you guys think?

You've lost half the people unless you have the meeting tomorrow and say, okay, what are the other half of you think? Right? So we passed out data ahead of time. had an agenda. Then we would ask questions that they had considered in advance, but we'd say, will you please break into a small group? We're to do three people in groups and discuss what answer you had. What meaning did you make of the data?

And so in a group of three, everybody gets heard, all voices are heard, then we come back together and say, what are the themes? What you're going to learn is about 80 % of all the content can get covered in those small group breakouts and every voice is heard. So it's a really effective technique to get great thinking on the table.

Steve Baumgartner (14:50)
Nice. So when you have these type of things, right, when you break out in these teams, you get a consensus on a certain idea or what have you. How does that actually change the organization?

Dave Garrison (15:02)
It changes the organization because you are modeling the behavior you want your team members to do with their teams. And when the person on the front line understands exactly what our priorities are, how they fit into it and how they are being measured and the fact that their voice counts, they're encouraged to share ideas, then magic happens. One of the stories we tell in the book is about an auto dealership where they went through the

process that we call discovery sessions and they asked the mechanics. said, you know, what is it that gets in our way of doing a great job as mechanics? Basically was the question they asked. And the mechanics said, well, you know, we do a lot of oil changes and when we do oil changes, you have to go read the paperwork says do an oil change. We have to go to the parts department and line up and get a filter and, you know, get a six pack all and et cetera. And that's a waste of time. Why wouldn't we put.

filters and oil in the center of the technician's work area. So we had fewer steps. We had a similar situation in Buffalo, New York, where the team was, again, mechanics working on jet engines. And there are three manufacturers of jet engines that count the world. you know, there's the Pratt Whitney documents were in that corner and the Rolls Royce in that corner and so forth. And GE was in that corner. And they said, we're wasting all this time walking back and forth across the hangar. Why don't we put all that reference material in the center?

Those are two simple ideas that cost nothing. The people doing the work know better how to do the work than we do. And we can say, well, you know, we have an open door policy, Steve. If they had any good ideas, they know I'm always here to listen. That doesn't cut it. What cuts it is having an active process to solicit feedback on particular issues. Another example in the healthcare industry, local hospital here got the mandate from corporate. You love mandates from corporate.

that they had to increase the number of beds per registered nurse on duty. So less nurse time per bed. Okay. So the administrator came in and said, okay, corporate says we have to change this. So beginning Monday, we're going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they were doing that to cut costs. And what happened was a number of nurses quit because of the way they did it. Because the nurse is all about empathy and trying to provide care. And they saw this as a crappy move.

by being counters and a number of them quit. The hospital had to hire traveling nurses at a significantly greater expense. So it ended up costing them more to have fewer nurses. So that one was the result was the inverse of what they were trying to accomplish. If they had simply said to the nurses, do you know what? We've been asked by corporate to change this ratio. I'm curious how we go about that and still provide the best possible care. And I'd like to get your ideas in a meeting tomorrow. you please come?

prepared to discuss, I would suggest to you the results would have been very different because they would have been part of the solution. In the book, The Buying Advantage, we call that done with, not done to. There's a big difference.

Steve Baumgartner (18:07)
So it's amazing to me that we know this with our children. We absolutely know that every time that we say, you're not gonna, they're gonna revolt. But if we go, you give them the AB type solution, you can either do this or you can do this. Which one's gonna be the best results for you? Frame it up in a way.

Dave Garrison (18:31)
Or ask them a question. Do you know what? One of our family values is that you're going to have a clean bedroom and it's going to be picked up neat and orderly. What would be the best way to accomplish that? When, what time of day do you think we should do that? What would be an appropriate reward if anything for doing that? Right. those questions, kids, suddenly they're going to feel like I really count. And frankly, if you set it up right, you shouldn't care what their answer is unless it's no, I'm not going to do that. But they're only going to say no if you do to them.

They'll only say no if you say, need to clean your room or you're not going to get any dessert. And then it's, I'm not cleaning my room and I am going to eat dessert.

Steve Baumgartner (19:08)
You're just not gonna see me eat it.

Dave Garrison (19:10)
Correct. Yeah, I'll figure it out. Thank you. Thank you.

Steve Baumgartner (19:13)
I like that. So you mentioned people who are mechanics and I would imagine dealership, Ford, Chevy, something like that. And then you talked about nurses and the cost reductions that they had. So bringing it to a broader scope, manufacturing environment, 2000 employees, that sort of setting, you bring six people in to solve a problem that affects hundreds, if not thousands. How would that play out?

Dave Garrison (19:42)
Yeah, maybe not so well. Another way to think about it is to say, in the book, we describe engagement surveys, doing engagement survey, and then training. This is the key part, training the managers how to have a conversation and allowing it to happen. So training the managers how to have a conversation to get curious about two or three questions on the survey where people had the greatest agreement or the greatest disagreement or the greatest spread agreement. So we can understand what people were thinking. Here's the catch.

after company, whether they do Gallup survey, our company survey, anybody's company survey, they get the results and then management sits down and decides what to do as a result, if anything. Well, we don't know what the people were thinking about when they answered the doggone questions. So why don't we train our leaders to meet with their teams to ask their teams what it is people were thinking about and then prioritize, well, what are the things getting in the way of us feeling like ⁓

Everybody understands what it is we're going to prioritize in this department. What gets in the way? People are going to do the work on their own. They're going to do it in small groups. And then they're going give you a list. And there's going to be 20 things. And then you ask the team, OK, if we address one of these 20 things, which one would have the most impact? And the team decides. And then ask the team, so if we were going to address this one thing, what are the different ways we could address it?

and have everybody create their list and then say, okay, these 20 things, what's the one thing we can do? So the team drives us down this path on their own of what it is they can do to change the situation. So if they give you something like double wages, say, great, that's not in our control. I'll talk to HR about that, but let's talk about what we can do. Here's what you'll find. Workplace improvements and allowing people's voice to be heard is usually about

communications, training, supply of tools and information. Like another department didn't give it to me the right way, or I didn't have the tools I needed at that time, or whatever it is. There weren't enough people on the shift. Right now in Air Traffic Control in Newark, New Jersey, they're at about a quarter of the staff they need. That gets in their way. But ask the team what's occurring. Six people are not solving it for 2,000. Six people are solving it for that team of six people.

So the first shift is going to have different issues than the second shift, than the third shift. So ask people from each shift what it is that gets in our way of being great. And there are specific questions to ask in ways to do that in the Buy an Advantage book.

Steve Baumgartner (22:13)
I like that. was sitting there listening to, you know, thinking about my experience with Gallup Surveys and listening to you talk there. you know, on their website, it actually breaks them all down. you know, you can get down to that, you know, supervisor level. And I would imagine it's exactly for that now that I know that.

Dave Garrison (22:33)
Yeah. And if you're a supervisor, the biggest predictor Gallup will tell you of an engaged employee, of a bought-in employee, is a bought-in manager. And so in a 2000 person organization, the opportunity we have is to generate buy-in among those managers and supervisors. So the shift supervisors. The way you do that is to use the exact same processes with them. You know, what gets in your way of being great?

And there's specific, again, there's specific questions to have because they know what gets in their way. They know what's wasting their time. And if they get engaged, the odds are their team members will be engaged and you will see results.

Steve Baumgartner (23:12)
up. How about union environments? know, strong union environments. From my experience, some of them are really good to work with. Don't get me wrong. But then there's other union environments that unless you're talking pay or you're talking more benefits, they don't want to be part of any solution. Yeah. Or say they don't anyways. I guess I shouldn't assume what they're.

Dave Garrison (23:35)
Well, you know, one of the things that gets in our way is our stories about what we believe and what we have the opportunity as a leader to do is to test the story. And so I've worked in union environments. I've been a manager in union environments. I've been on the union campaigns on the management side. I haven't been on union campaigns on the union side, but I have a fair amount of experience there. And I agree with you, just like there are good leaders and bad leaders, constructive unions and unions that don't...

really in my story don't really care about the people. Just give me the dues, baby. Just give me the dues. And so I think what you have the opportunity to do is to sit down with the union leaders and say, what does great look like to you? What is success for your union? Not necessarily at my company. What is, you know, ask them, what are your three top objectives for your local for 2025? Do you know that?

And you're going to learn a lot about them. Are they willing and open to share? Because if they believe you can help them achieve their objectives, they'll be all in. And you have the opportunity to say, do you know what? We're thinking about making some changes, but we want to do it with you. What would that look like? How can we be effective working together? So how about if you ask them what working together effectively looks like? Because there are many cases where we just have a history of Hatfield McCoys. That doggone union, that doggone company.

which is not helpful for anybody and apparently is caught in the middle.

Steve Baumgartner (25:02)
Yeah, I've, you know, I've walked into places before and, I get all the warnings, you know, about unions and generally what I find, you know, it's the same as having government in your workplace, you know, most of the time as we haven't given them the time of day as managers, right? And they just watch your ear.

Dave Garrison (25:23)
They're doing a job. It's their job. And so look, if I don't talk to them, it will not eliminate the union. All it's going to do is make my life more difficult. So why don't I just say, hey, what's really important to you guys? What's important to you? What are your objectives? Where do our objectives meet? Where are they in conflict? How can we work together?

Steve Baumgartner (25:40)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And then you bring 80 % of it into that sphere that you're both working on collectively. You know, now you're only worried about that 20 or 10 % or even five, I don't know. But yeah, I agree that 100%. ⁓ So keeping on down this road, you know, we talked about the unions, looking at it from a different perspective. And that's, I worked

Quite a bit of my career as a general manager inside of facilities. So you always have a boss, you know, and those bosses have different experiences. Once again, might be the command control type. And you want to try this different approach. You want to work towards this different approach and they're really not appreciative of it. How would you go about getting buy-in from the other direction?

Dave Garrison (26:28)
Yeah, getting buy-in from your boss. That's a great question. It is pretty dependent on what their beliefs are. I would understand what their beliefs about leadership are and then try to ask how these techniques relate to their leadership beliefs. Because what I know to be true is as long as we're sane, like not insane, our actions always line up with our beliefs. So however your boss

managers lines up with their beliefs of what a leader should do. so I would start the conversation and just say, can we agree and go to outcome? So here's a model that's in the book for decision-making that happens to apply to your boss as well. And the example that I use is, you know, sometimes I go to one of these young presidents meetings and I'll get some incredible idea from another CEO and I'll come back Monday morning to our team and I'll go, team, I've got this great idea.

And I'll lay it out and I suck all the air, all the oxygen out of the room. Cause I've just told them it's a great idea. What are they supposed to say? Steve, I don't think that's a great idea. They're not going to say that. So I've just cut off the conversation. So here's what we suggest instead. If you believe something is a great idea, work backwards, do reverse engineering and ask yourself what problem I try to solve. Identify specifically the problem you're trying to solve. Number two, ask yourself, how do I know my idea is a great idea?

Because it meets this checklist in your head. It's something that's simple. Everybody will remember it. We can get behind it. Doesn't take any more money. Whatever lets you know it's a great idea. And then go to your team and say, I'm really interested in addressing the problem of waste on the factory floor. How would we reduce waste by 30 % on the factory floor and share criteria? I think that the solution has to be one we can implement.

that doesn't create any safety issues that is in line with our company values or whatever's on your checklist, share it with your team and then ask your team to go off on their own and think about ideas and come back together and share. Using that same model with your boss, identify what your desired outcome is. You know, if you went to your boss and said, if there was a way that we could increase output from every shift by 10%, would you be interested? What's your boss going to say? ⁓ Right.

Steve Baumgartner (28:45)
salute.

Dave Garrison (28:47)
And so I'm thinking about different solutions and I'd be curious about your ideas, but the criteria for my solutions are something we can implement easily understood that the people on the factory floor will buy off on. And it doesn't take us a whole lot of time to train them on it or to change the assembly line or whatever. Can we talk about some ideas on Monday morning? And so enter into them in a co-creation done with, not done to. And as your boss offers up ideas, offer up your own ideas and your ideas, he might

She might trump your ideas. We don't know. And so I would introduce it that way. What's the desired outcome and what is your criteria for what great looks like and invite them to the conversation and then say, you know, if this is true, I'm wondering, is there any downside to trying dot dot dot dot dot or just hide and just do it and then let them be surprised. then, and then they say, how'd you do that, Steve? Whatever riskier, but Hey.

Steve Baumgartner (29:42)
Yeah, I would say in that aspect and a lot of organizations, it might work once, but it's probably not going to work twice.

Dave Garrison (29:48)
I don't think you'll be there, but yes.

Steve Baumgartner (29:52)
trying to figure out how to word this next one, but let's go back to the example that you used with the nurses and they were downsizing. It always sucks to downsize, but it's the way of the world right now, especially with inflation. And it's, I would say it's never good news, right? And a lot of organizations go about with headcount reductions, things like that. That's a place that's really difficult to get buy-in for. I understood your example with the nurses, you know, that it was solving a problem.

with the beds and it was probably more logistical at that point. But let's say Monday morning, we come in and we have 15 % less headcount and we have to do the same job. Most people look at that like, great, I just get more work and no more money out of the deal. How would you go about something like that?

Dave Garrison (30:42)
Now there are couple of messages for leaders. People are going to evaluate whether, no matter what you say, was this done in a fair manner or was this just a poor ass excuse to get rid of people that they should have gotten rid of before that weren't performing? Right? So your credibility is on the line in who is there, who is not there.

Number two, the respect you show for the people who left, the respect you show for the people who didn't have a choice and left will send a loud message because it's going to say in code what you think of the people who stay and what you think of people in general. So be very careful and deliberate in that and then reframe. Look, I wish that those people, we didn't have to let go of those people, but we are where we are. But what hasn't changed is our compelling purpose.

What the reason what we're doing is important has not changed our values and go through the values have not changed and we still have a job to accomplish and then do with which means I want to have a meeting and I'd to get your ideas tomorrow morning on any changes in process. Are there any steps we can stop doing? How can we do things differently so that we can all support each other in this new world with the resources we have? So you could either yell work harder.

which is like the t-shirt that says the beatings will continue until morale improves, or you can say, look, we're in this together, we are where we are, and together, all of us can come up with a better solution.

Steve Baumgartner (32:12)
Yeah, that's interesting. think one unwritten one that you had too is that you better start before it even comes, right? They better understand that the values and the purpose are important before you even get to that.

Dave Garrison (32:24)
Absolutely. And honestly, too many layoffs I've seen are the result of poor leadership and not the, example, not putting in processes in place that are more effective and reducing costs as you go along as a result of including everybody. And then suddenly the real world competitors or whatever hit you upside the head and you have to take more drastic action. And that's not the fault of the people who leave or get fired. No, that's just human tragedy. so.

The buy-in advantage has techniques that can, or stall that by engaging everybody with very clear desired outcomes. Everybody understands their role, how they're measured, and everybody knows their voice counts. And everybody knows all of us will come up with much better solutions than any of us will. And the boss shifts from being a manager who tells people to being a leader who listens. And it doesn't matter what level you are in an organization, you can be a leader on the very front lines.

Steve Baumgartner (33:21)
imagine too that these techniques could apply not only in group situations and in problem solving and things like that, but also on review times, quarterly reviews or you know, biannual, whatever they are.

Dave Garrison (33:34)
No kidding, Steve, hit ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. The idea that I can judge how you're performing is just flat ass wrong. I can't pass. I'm not with you all the time. I can't judge how you're performing. However, if I rewind, rewind, rewind and go back to the beginning of the time period and you and I sit down and agree on what great looks like.

Specifically, what is it we expect from this position that we create together and we identify the measures that we're going to use on what great looks like and you tell me how you're going to get that done and we just write that down and agree to it. I didn't tell you we did it together. Now there's certain specs for a job and safety is non-negotiable and other things, but let's just create it together.

Then at the end of the quarter, end of the year, do you know what? It's your review of yourself because we agreed on what it is great looks like and what the measures were and how you're going to do it. So my question for you is how'd do? How would you grade yourself? And if we are in an environment of trust, you're going to do eight, you're going to tell me 80 % of what I would have told you, but it's more powerful coming from you than coming from me. Otherwise it's like my kindergarten class and Mrs. Burkholder who served Hawaiian punch.

pineapple flavor that I hated. said, just hold your breath. So employees and employee where you just hold the breath till you finish talking and then we'll out of here and I'll go on. Don't make it that way. Allow people to evaluate themselves. And then if you observe something that they haven't mentioned, you can say, well, I'm also curious to know, did I see correctly that and share what you think you saw or observed or what the data says and ask them how does that fit into this? And then say, okay, so

What do we want to change for the next period? And how can I help you? And that becomes a review people look forward to. And it shouldn't be annual. It should be frequently, but it's co-created. It's done with, not done to. It's not dreaded. It's enjoyed because it's part of the growth process. And who doesn't like somebody who wants to help them?

Steve Baumgartner (35:36)
Yeah, and that's if you do it frequently enough, you know, everybody always dreads it because it's generally sharing some sort of bad news or, you know, or worse, right? You're not sharing that news and you just get them give them five star ratings because you're uncomfortable with it. Right. But if you do it frequently, it's more like a I mean, you have the communication session, but it's also knowledge building session for both of you. It's a it's like being part of a workshop.

to co-create a learning opportunity.

Dave Garrison (36:09)
It is. So let's take the example of an employee who comes in, who's regularly on time, but comes in late, like three times in a three or four week period. And you notice it and you can make up a story and say, Janiece is late again. I know what that is. She's sleeping in, doesn't care about work. Janiece is late again. She's probably drinking late at night with the girls. Janiece is late. How about if you just went to Janiece and say, Hey Janiece, I noticed it a couple of times in the last couple of weeks. You've been here past our start time.

Can you tell me what's going on? That's not judgment. That's not uncomfortable. All I want to know is what's going on. And more likely than not, you're likely to hear, my partner can't get the kids to daycare on time. You know, I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's some legitimate reason or I overslept. And then you can say, what can I do to support you? Do not try to solve the problem for Janiece. You are shooting darts with a blindfold on. If you try to tell her the solution, ask her, Janiece, what's the solution? Cause I know.

You know, it may not seem like a big thing, but people count on each other here. And it's important that we're here on time. And I know you know that. What is it I can do to support you? What can we do differently?

Steve Baumgartner (37:18)
Taking that, just giving it a little bit of a twist, Dave. Say you're Janice Yosin, was that the example? I'm not as creative, I would have said Cindy or something, Janice. Anyhow, Janice is like, well, you know, I really need my beauty sleep. I could use an extra hour sleep. You know, for her particular role, it probably doesn't matter that she's there exactly on time. But for the good of the dynamic, you know, everybody has the same role and...

Dave Garrison (37:24)
Yeah, she just came to mind.

Steve Baumgartner (37:47)
from not going into chaos mode with the rest of the folks, you need to stick to that time. How would you go about addressing something like

Dave Garrison (37:54)
You know, I think you can ask her, what do you imagine the unintended consequences are when you come in late? And let her offer up some answers and then you can add in yours. If you start with yours, she's going to hear something like this. And that's not what we want. But if you ask her, hey, Janiece, I'm curious to know, you know, you clearly are

You're a mom, you've got a lot on or whatever. I'm curious to know what are the unintended consequences when somebody shows up late and if they can't come up with any, then you can explain it and just say, you know what, that's kind of required around here. But if you go right to the, it's required around here, here are our rules. Let me tell you the rules again and I'll report to HR what they hear is wah, wah, wah.

Steve Baumgartner (38:40)
Yeah, agreed. Now I like that approach a lot, Dave. Well, we're coming to about the end of our time already. It just flew on by. Is there any parting comments or anything that we didn't cover that you'd absolutely like to?

Dave Garrison (38:53)
Yeah, just, um, you know, again, just remember that all of us are smarter than any of us. And because we all have this six blind spot. When, when you analyze a situation as a group, you'll get a lot better insights and a lot better solutions. Here's a free tip. If you go to buyinbook.com, can download chapter three that tells you how to go through that process and just give it to your team and go through the process and compare notes on where your low hanging fruit is.

and collectively decide what to do first. And then the book is full of solutions on ways to address these common warning signs. And what I know for sure, cause I've seen it in so many companies and lots of stories in the book about companies that results go up as people care more. Bring the Friday night excitement to the workplace and you'll get better results. I promise you that.

Steve Baumgartner (39:45)
Absolutely. So that website, if you could tell us to us again, I would imagine that's where they can pre-order the book as well.

Dave Garrison (39:51)
Yeah, buy in book, B-U-Y-I-N-B-O-O-K, buyinbook.com. Or you can contact our team at garrisongrowth.com, G-R-O-W-T-H. Check us out on LinkedIn. It's Dave Garrison at LinkedIn. We have ⁓ a newsletter you can sign up for that's free that gives you leadership tips every Sunday and all this other good stuff from companies that have generated buy-in and problems that leaders face all the time. Did I mention the cost of that newsletter?

The cost of downloading chapter three at buyinbook.com, Zippo, and the book is full of great solutions. Also comes out on Audible and Kindle as well. So there you have it. Do you know, I'll tell you a funny story. Part of going with a big time publisher is you can sign off all the rights of the book. And one of the only rights I can negotiate was the right to be considered to read the book. So I had to audition to read my book and I auditioned for Audible. They selected me. Then they sent me a contract.

Steve Baumgartner (40:29)
Do you read it on Audible?

Dave Garrison (40:49)
And it's a minimal amount of money. I had to take a big pay cut, but I went to the studio to read the book. Then they called me back in three weeks. That was three days of recording. They called me back in a couple of weeks later and said, you've got some work to do. And I thought, no, what did I do wrong? And the engineer said to me, did they tell you what you did wrong? And I said, no. And I was really worried. I screwed up. And I misread five words out of 72,000.

and it took about 12 minutes to re-record 12 words. So we did that. So I hope you like the audible version as well. I put a lot of time and effort into it.

Steve Baumgartner (41:25)
They should have read the book before giving me a feedback day.

Thank you for having me. This was great. Yeah, this is a great conversation, Dave. I always hate how the best ones go so fast, but I appreciate you being on. I'm going to check out that book myself. I'm going to go download the chapter right now. So I will put all your stuff down on the show notes so that anybody can just reach out and grab it. And once again, thank you, sir. I appreciate you being on everybody. Go check out the book.

Dave Garrison (41:55)
Steve, great day to begin your buying advantage. Thanks, my friend. See ya.

Steve Baumgartner (41:59)
All right. Thank you, sir.

Dave Garrison (42:03)
You have just experienced the heat and pressure of the forge. Remember, words without action are meaningless. Now, after the heat of the forge, shape your thoughts, quench your brain, then put your new tools to use, adding to your leadership. Tune in next week for more lessons from the forge.