185: Sean Corcoran: Weak Men Strengthen the Abortion Machine!

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Fire Forged Leader Podcast | Hosted by Steve Baumgartner with Guest Sean Corcoran @ www.MenForLife.org

🔥 Episode Summary:
What happens when a man hits rock bottom and chooses to rise?

In this episode of Fire Forged Leader, Steve sits down with Sean Corcoran, a former divorce attorney turned CEO of Men for Life—a nonprofit rewriting the conversation around abortion, manhood, and leadership.

Sean shares his gut-wrenching story of post-abortion grief, meth addiction, and a supernatural moment of redemption that brought him back to life and purpose. He unpacks the silence that haunts men after abortion, why biblical masculinity is the solution, and how his Men for Life curriculum is flipping the script for young fathers.

💥 Inside This Episode:
✅ Why abortion is not just a women’s issue—but the result of failed masculinity
✅ How silence and shame trap men in cycles of addiction and self-destruction
✅ Sean’s overdose moment, a broken-down truck, and God’s grace in a parking lot
✅ What true masculinity looks like (hint: it’s not Andrew Tate)
✅ Why young men don’t need lectures—they need vision and brotherhood
✅ How the Men for Life framework is equipping fathers in pregnancy centers nationwide
✅ What Steve and Sean both believe about balancing provision and presence in fatherhood
✅ The connection between failed marriages and emotional absenteeism
✅ Why cultural change must start with men—and how YOU can be part of it

🕰️ Chapter Markers:
00:00 – Intro: This Man Is the Real Deal
02:42 – Abortion & the Masculinity Crisis
07:15 – Sean’s Childhood, Isolation & Root of Pain
14:31 – The Abortion That Changed Everything
21:10 – From Cocaine to Meth: Escaping the Pain
27:52 – Rock Bottom: Hotel Room Overdose
33:03 – A Miracle: God's Grace in a Broken Truck
39:00 – Rehab & the First Permission to Grieve
43:45 – Naming His Son Michael
48:50 – Why Men Stay Silent After Abortion
53:20 – From Law School to Redemption
58:15 – How He Met His Wife After 7 Years
1:03:10 – What He Would Tell His Younger Self
1:07:48 – The Lies Men Believe About Fatherhood
1:14:20 – Pro-Woman Doesn’t Mean Weak Men
1:18:36 – The Culture War Inside the Pro-Life Movement
1:26:03 – Why Young Men Need Something Bigger
1:31:00 – The Gladiator Moment Every Man Needs
1:34:15 – Redefining Fatherhood & Manhood
1:40:55 – Real Impact: 500K Views & Counting
1:45:20 – Masculinity ≠ Toxic; It Means Sacrifice
1:49:00 – Men for Life Curriculum Vision
1:54:30 – What Divorce Taught Sean About Manhood
1:58:15 – Communication: The Real Marriage Killer
2:00:00 – Final Thoughts & Call to Action

Transcript

Steve Baumgartner (00:00)
Guys, sometimes I follow someone online and think, this guy really gets it, only to meet them in person and I feel let down. Not this time. Sean Corcoran is everything you see online and more. Raw, relentless in his mission. In this episode of the Fireforge Leader, we go deep into a story most men won't even touch. It's a conversation about abortion, addiction, fatherhood,

and masculinity, and how one man's rock bottom became a turning point for a greater purpose. Here's what you're going to learn in this episode. Why Sean believes abortion is the result of failed masculinity, which I also believe, and how reclaiming manhood is really the long-term solution. We're also going to talk about the unspoken grief that men carry after abortion and how silence

has kept them stuck for decades. We're also gonna talk about what biblical masculinity really looks like and why men must lead with sacrifice and not selfishness. And finally, you're gonna find out how Sean is helping build a new generation of fathers and leaders through his Men for Life and his powerful message of healing of purpose. I believe that

No one has benefited from abortion more than weak men seeking to escape responsibility. And those are the ones that are allowed to talk about it, right? Like I'm not allowed to talk about it because I don't have a uterus. But if I support abortion, like I can say anything I want. So the people, the men championing abortion are the ones who are benefiting from it. Like those aren't real men. No real man is going to say, hey, I'm okay with you killing my baby because I don't want to get into your business.

Like that is failed masculinity. I think that the answer is to reclaim masculinity. I think that the answer is a cultural shift.

Leaders are not born in womb. They're forged through heat, pressure, and a whole lot of sweat. The Fire Forge Leader podcast serves the audience through exploring leadership at work, in the community, and with the family, using a practical perspective and real life experiences from the host, Steve Baumgartner, and his guests in the Forge. Now, it's time to enter the Forge.

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then let me know any questions that you might have. Let's level up together, guys. Hey, Sean, I'd like to welcome you to the Fire Forge Leader podcast. Man, this is great to finally connect. You know, we've been doing it online for quite some time. But I'm also really excited because we're going to be talking about things that have never been talked about before on this show. You know, and that's pro-life and the pro-life movement and really how masculinity plays into that. once again, Sean, welcome, man. Thanks, Steve. I'm really excited to be here.

I think this is going to be a really fun conversation because of what you just said, because we really just get to talk about the meat of it, right? About the, ⁓ about the masculinity. believe that abortion is the product of failed masculinity. And then I believe that the answer to, ⁓ and it's a long game, but the answer to solving the abortion crisis in America is reclaiming masculine, true masculinity. Absolutely. couldn't agree more. And as we talked about before the show, think that masculinity and

just grown men is really the answer to many of the problems in the United States. This one being a huge one, of course, right? Because it takes away our morals and value streams and so much more that affects society. You know, if you don't respect life at any stage, then you don't respect life at any stage, you know, and I think that, that it gets into, ⁓ a lot of the problems that we have.

which is, you know, like problems respecting women, problems respecting ourselves. You know, I think that when we stop respecting the fact that life has value, then it makes it easier to devalue everyone, not just the unborn. Totally agree. Before we get started talking about your ministry though, which is a very important one, I really want to get started at the beginning, you know? Who was Sean?

You know, as a kid, how'd you grow up? I already know your past, but I think it's very important to, you know, talk to these men and really tell them where you came from. ⁓ So I grew up, ⁓ it was not a military family, but we moved around every couple of years. My dad worked for, ⁓ chemical plants. So I was born in Tallahassee, Florida. When I was six, we moved to St. Louis, Missouri. When I was eight, we moved to Mobile, Alabama. When I was 10, we moved to Rochester, New York. And when I was 12, we moved to Louisiana where, where I'm currently.

living, we would have kept going. Um, because, you know, the final destination in my dad's plan for, for his, his work was, um, I'm remembering correctly, it was somewhere in Connecticut. think it was Hartford, Connecticut. So, so we would have kept moving, you know, a couple more times until he made it to, the company's national headquarters. But as you can imagine, moving every two years was very difficult. I'm the oldest of a brother who's a couple of years younger than me. And I have a sister who's

eight years younger than me. So for me to move again when I was 12, knowing that the plan was to move again in a year and a half or two years. By that point, I was tired. You know, I was tired of, of making friends and losing them. It was, it was before cell phones before all that stuff. So there wasn't like, like I moved and then I kept in contact with, you know, my 10 year old or 12 year old friends. ⁓ I just made friends and then we moved and I lost them.

So, so I made no effort here. ⁓ you know, I didn't want to be here. I mean, that kind of persisted through middle school, through high school. ⁓ and then I graduated high school in May of 1996 and less than a month later, I started college in Tallahassee, Florida. I moved back to where I was born. My dad had played football for Florida state. And so we were always big Florida state fans. And so I just moved back there. I'm sorry. Sorry.

Well, you know, it's worked out. It's worked out for him. So we, ⁓ so I moved, I moved there, started college the summer that I graduated high school and, ⁓ you know, and I would say I would class, clarify my, my childhood as, as pretty average, you know, ⁓ we, I went to Catholic school. We didn't, we didn't have much, you know, the money that we had, the extra money we had went to pay for our Catholic education. I had a great family, you know, very loving, lots of love. just.

I just hated moving all the time. And so ironic that I responded to hating moving all the time by moving, but that was my answer, right? To get away, start over. I was really good at starting over. I, um, so I went off to college and, and I was in my second semester of college and my girlfriend came into my dorm room and she said, Hey, you know, I'm pregnant. And, and in my mind,

I started going to all the other ways this is going to change my life, right? Like we're going to have a baby. So how's this going to change my life? Our lives, you know, we're going to, and I don't know what the answers were. I was just asking the questions and I must've been asking them out loud because she stopped me and she said, well, you know, I'm not going to have the baby. I'm going, I'm going to have an abortion. And as I mentioned, I I went to Catholic school, so I knew what abortion was, but I didn't know anybody that had ever had an abortion. didn't realize that it was a thing that people did.

I just knew what it was. And so it was really a shock to me at that point to hear that, you know, again, this is before social media. This is before, this is the advent of the internet, right? The mid nineties where really what the internet was, ⁓ downloading music for free. wasn't, ⁓ you know, it was dial-up, right? For anyone who exists, who's listening to this, who knows what that is.

And if you don't, congratulations, you've never had to deal with the crazy sound of dial-up and the length of time it took to download anything. But, ⁓ there just wasn't all the information that we have now. You know, I think that, that, that any kid, high school kid, college kid at this point knows what abortion is in very, very visual ways, you know, and has heard both sides of the argument, but that's just not how it was at that time. So it really just kind of floored me, you know, and, my response of course was, well, this isn't

We can't, we can't have an abortion. There's a baby. So we got to have a baby, but it was not my decision. You know, and I didn't really know what to do with that. And so the one, one consistent thing that I always had was in my life was whenever I got into a jam that I could not figure out a solution to, I knew that I could rely on my dad. And so I called my dad and he drove in from Louisiana to Tallahassee and the young lady's mom flew in from Texas and

They met, I don't think we were part of those conversations. I know that he offered for he and my mom to adopt the baby. They did what he could to fight for the child's life. And in the end we lost. And then, you my dad said what we say to boys, you know, he said, put your head down, work hard. This is, this is where we're at. There's nothing we can do. Work hard and push through, you know, and that's just not where my head was at. Like there was nothing, there was no pushing throughs. There was nothing that I had to give.

So instead I sat in my dorm room for the rest of the semester and I failed out of college. I did show up for one, one final exam. And so I failed out of school and I moved home. started at a new school or the local college or university. I did okay for a semester and then I failed out of school again. And then I did okay for a semester and then, ⁓ and then I failed out of school again. At that point, I just.

I just stopped. I wasn't going to college anymore because I wanted to go to college. I was just going because that was the expectation and it didn't make any sense for me to keep paying for school and failing out. So I stopped. They actually wouldn't have let me come back that time either. So I don't know that it was a hundred percent my choice, but you know, by the second time that I failed out of school, I had started partying all the time. You know, I was working in restaurants, working in bars and I was partying all night. I started doing cocaine and then that led into ecstasy, you know, and I was doing cocaine.

Pretty much every day I was doing ecstasy, every Thursday, every Friday, every Saturday night. And that led into methamphetamine. And so right now we're about one year out from, when I, I guess at this point we're two years out, cause I'd been doing drugs for about a year from when I, you know, and that just kept going, you know, and it kept going beyond when the friends that I was doing it with who were, who were having fun recreationally moved on with their lives. And part of them moving on with their lives was kind of distancing themselves from me.

You know, to the point where by the time I stopped, there was only two other people that, that I had started with who were still, I guess, in that game. Both of them are deceased now. And, ⁓ and so, so now we're eight years after the abortion. It's 2005 and, ⁓ in December of 2005, I'm at the end of a seven second shock. Yeah.

There's a couple of things that are just rolling around in my mind right now. You talked about the continued moves that you and your family did, and that when you went to Louisiana, that you just stopped trying to make friends, essentially. How much of... You you went through a ton of turmoil throughout this situation with this girlfriend and the abortion and the feelings, and you had a lack of brotherhood in that as well, and your parents were living somewhere else.

Your dad came down and tried to help, but of course he probably had to go back. Do you think things could have been even slightly different if you would have had friends around you and, you know, people who supported you throughout that whole time? for sure. I think that, I think that had I had the friends when the, when the abortion happened that I made when I moved home, and this was before, before I started drugs, you know, I joined a fraternity and, I had good friends, good people. Had I had those friends.

then and I could have confided in them. You know, I think that support system would have been very helpful. As it stood though, I left the conversation about the abortion with the understanding that nothing that I said mattered, nothing that I felt mattered, nothing I did mattered and really internalized that to where even when I moved home and, you know, and started making friends and, you know, I believed that there was no reason for me to share that experience because nothing that I said, nothing that I did, nothing that I felt matter.

⁓ you know, and I think that that's, that's a part of a bigger conversation in this, a bigger part of this conversation is that men don't talk about it because men don't talk about it, you know? And so yes, I think the answer to your question is yes. think that had I had, you know, people, a support system that I could share that experience with that I would have been able to work through it probably in a different way. I should add that, you know, to kind of, to kind of nail the coffin, ⁓ of, my feelings, not mattering.

The young lady, the mother of my child, also struggled with school after the abortion. And she shared with me that she went and talked to counselors and they listened to her story and they waived some of her classes so that she could continue without it affecting her schooling. I went and talked to the same people and was completely disregarded. It didn't matter. It wasn't my experience. The abortion wasn't my experience is what I was told by these counselors.

And so, so just one more person saying, you know, what you think, what you feel, what you do doesn't matter. And so there was no reason for me to share when I moved home. And honestly, Steve, it's not something I thought about, you know, it wasn't like, Hey, I'm really upset about this. So, so I am making this connection that I'm upset about it I'm going to do drugs to, to, you know, to, to shove it down. It had been shoved down. so.

I knew that I didn't like the way I felt. knew that I wanted to change the way I felt. And that's why I was doing as much as I could to change that. But I didn't know what it was that was leading to feeling that way. So then in, in December, 2005, find myself lying on a hotel room floor. We had had hurricanes or hurt. had a hurricane in, the town that I live in. And, and so I was staying in a hotel. It was a crappy hotel to begin with, but after the hurricane, was like a really crappy hotel.

And FEMA was paying for it, which is the only reason I had a place to stay. And there was no room service, room service. There was never room service to this place. wasn't that kind of hotel. It was like a, like a best Western light and a, motel, what is it? Motel six. This was like a motel four. And so, so anyway, I'm in this crappy hotel, but, even worse because there's no, cleaning.

is what I meant to say. And so I'm in this dirty hotel room laying on the floor. And if you can imagine, it's super dark because I had taken every light bulb at this point except one and broken them and used them to smoke meth out of. So just single light bulb over the bathroom. And I find myself laying on the floor overdosing, waiting for the police to come because I had stolen from my previous employer and they told me not to go anywhere because the police were coming, which is why I used the rest of my meth and just dying.

You know, in seven years of methamphetamine addiction, I had prayed so many times, God just help me out of this one more time, right? Like you just help me out of this one more time and I will never do it again. So by the time we get to 2005, like I didn't believe that. Like there was no reason for me to say that anymore because I didn't believe it. I sure knew God didn't believe that, that, ⁓ that if I said I wasn't going to do it again, that I wasn't going to wake up tomorrow and do it again. wasn't scared to die. I didn't care if I lived.

But what was going through my mind at that time was just terrified that my parents would find me dead of an overdose on a hotel room floor. That that would be like the one final way that I disrespected them, you know, after all the things I had done to them during this period, manipulation, lying, stealing, blaming, you know, just screaming at them for no reason, because like I was crazy during this period of time. And, and for them to then find me dead on a hotel room floor.

And so I did, started praying God, you know, just let me out of this because I wanted to save them from that embarrassment. And I passed out and I woke up the next day and my head was super clear. You know, we had talked before, um, before recording and you shared a story where, where it was like, God reached into you and just, and just pulled, you know, um, addiction out of you. And, know, and, and my head was more clear than I had been, um, in.

in years and I knew like I didn't want to go to jail. Like I don't want to do drugs anymore. I don't want to live like this. And I walked down to my truck where I've been, which I've been living out of, had everything I owned in it. And I reached behind the driver's seat without even looking, just stuck my hand down there and pulled out a pamphlet for a treatment center that had been in there for at least two years and went up to the room and I called and they said that I could get in that day. And so I called my dad who hadn't spoken to me in about a month. He had.

told me I could get my stuff and never come back to his house again. And I said, Hey, this is what's going on. I'm waiting for the police, but I can go to treatment and I can go right now. And he said, ⁓ well, I think you should call them and tell them that this is where you'll be if they want to come find you, the owner of the restaurant and go. And so that's what I did. And I drove in a truck that hadn't had a maintenance or an oil change in about five years. And I drove through the national forest.

Again, before smartphone, before GPS, through the national forests and just praying, Hey God, let me make it through this forest because I don't want to like just die in the sport. after all this, like I'm just going to get stranded and die in a forest. And I made it to the forest. And then I made it to Shreveport, Louisiana, where the treatment center was. And I don't know if you're familiar with Louisiana, but it's flat. Like it's just flat. Like I'm at sea level now. And if I walked a hundred miles that way, I would be at sea level and ⁓ I walked 50 miles that way. I'd be in the sea.

So it like, we're a sea level. But when you get to Shreveport, we start getting hills. So I get to Shreveport and I started getting hills for the first time in this truck and it's just shaking, like going up these hills. And at that point I'm just praying God like helped me to make it to the parking lot. And I did, I made it in the parking lot of the treatment center and my truck broke down. And I had to push my truck into a parking spot.

I felt safe, you know, like there was nowhere for me to go. There was nothing I could do. Um, I didn't have any money. Like I was out of gas. That's not why my truck broke down. I just, I didn't have any money to put more gas in it. And, and this is where I was supposed to be. Like I felt like this is where I was supposed to be. And so I went inside and I, um, told the lady, Hey, I need to call my dad and tell him I made it. And she said, well, your dad's already called. He's already gotten all the information and they will be here this weekend, which.

You know, again, like they hadn't spoken to me. ⁓ and they had every reason not to speak, not to speak to me. And so that was a very powerful reminder of what it means to be a dad, right? Of what that unconditional love that, that type of love that God, the father gives, you know, that, ⁓ yeah, I'm going to set boundaries and I'm not going to tolerate everything. I'm not going to accept everything, but I'm still going to be here for you. And so that just solidified that this is where I needed to be. And so I spent 45 days in treatment.

And in treatment is where the counselors, as they walked me through my life, you know, and I got to the abortion and I would have kept going because that was not a significant point as far as I believed I was allowed to have significant points. And she stopped me and she said, I think we should talk about this. And that was the first time I was given permission. Like to, to think about it, to talk about it. The first time I was given permission to mourn the first time I was given permission to feel, you know, that loss.

The first time that I was given permission to really feel anything about it. And that really began my healing journey. We talked about, you know, she helped me to name my child. I named my child Michael. She helped me to write letters of forgiveness, forgiving the mother of my child, forgiving my younger self, asking for forgiveness from Michael and from my younger self. And really just kind of begin that healing journey. Because as I said, up until that point, I made no connection between

the behaviors and the abortion. So, that's amazing. Got me, got me scrambling in my head right now. There's, there's so much there that you just shared with a shot and I appreciate you doing all of that sharing, you know, as men, we don't do that enough. We don't tell our stories to other men who might be struggling or whatever else. So I know that to this day, that's still, you know, hit you where it should hit you. But as I'm sitting here thinking about, you know,

all the times that you weren't given permission that this wasn't, this wasn't your decision. I was sitting there recalling back my own childhood. And as we spoke, I was adopted in an early age and my mom in that adoptive house, she was a Catholic school teacher. My dad was involved in the church. My experience was a touch different, but we had my experience with abortion at that point in time was we had this, this book and it was probably three inches thick that, you know, when

we're old enough or whatever my mom and dad would bring down and they would open up and they would show us these horribly graphic pictures, right? Probably things that I still don't need to see today. And some of the things that I think is wrong with the pro-life movement, there's not enough love in it. There's a lot of anger going sideways on that. But also- it's important. think we'll come back to that. I also remember being at, it was probably junior high and we were debating about abortion, you know? And I remember that sentiment.

you know, in junior high that there was two things. I remember the sentiment that you mentioned, but I also remember how much, I guess I don't remember it, but it's how I feel about how they were teaching the subject in debate, how much it was what ifs, what if scenarios, right? What if the mother was raped? What if, you know, things like that. And I think the reason why I bring all that up is that it's these little key holes into going down the rabbit hole that's actually in

institutionalized in our schools and in our society. I just, I had the call to bring that, bring that up. don't know if there was a question in that, but maybe commentary. I think that that's all, ⁓ all really important because, because those what ifs they persist, right? That is the basis of the pro-choice argument. You know, the pro-choice argument is very emotional. The pro-life argument is very logical. ⁓ you know, I recognize that.

Especially back then there was the thought process and the pro-life movement was show the graphic images, know, cream, you don't have to kill your baby, you know, it's changed. ⁓ you know, and which is not to say that there aren't people that still do that. ⁓ there are, and there's a time and a place for, for graphic images, you know, there's been studies done. so, so I recognize that there's a time and a place, but the time and the place isn't always right. There's, there is a need for love.

You know, a strength, I think that especially as men, when we approach this, we have to come with strength balanced with compassion. There has to be an empathy for it. And I think that that really comes down to, I mean, honestly, I debate this a lot and I catch pro-choice people a lot making comments similar to, you know, no mother would abort her child unless she's at a point of brokenness. They back away from that really quickly once I, once I agree with them, because that's the whole point. Right. But, but.

from the pro-life side, have to recognize that there is brokenness. You know, there's something deeper. There's outliers, of course, there's extremes where people celebrate their abortions. But the majority of women who are getting an abortion are getting it ⁓ for a reason in their mind. ⁓ And so it's important to have that empathy and compassion. And from the man's that's much harder because we've been told

for 53 years now since Roe versus Wade to sit down, to shut up, to stay out of it. This isn't our fight. This is a women's issue. This is about healthcare. This is about reproductive health. This is not your business. And while the pro-choice side, the abortion industry has been saying this, the pro-life side has been so focused on mom and baby that they've been ignoring the men. And so the men sat down, shut up, and whether they're pro-life, whether they're pro-choice, and said,

nothing. that's, that is a, a, a, an example of failed masculinity because it is not up to the women in the pro-life movement to call forth the men to action. Right. We should never have agreed that abortion, the killing of an innocent human is a women's issue. I mean, that's just, it's ridiculous when you hear it like that, but we did. And so, so what has happened is this overwhelming silence. And so to the point where when I left treatment,

Even though I'd been giving all this permission, I didn't talk about it. Like, you know, I left treatment and my focus was, was I am, I was on track to something. I fell and now I got to get back on track eight years later. I'm eight years behind, right? As a man, as a, as a human, I am eight years behind where I should have been. So now I need to work hard. Like now is the time for me to put my head down, push through it. And so that's what I did. And I went back to college and I went, I went to law school and it's just how God works because, because when I finished, when I

Failed out that last time, my GPA was like a 1.3. And when I went back to school, I did amazing. I think I got one B, but you can only bring a 1.3 up so far and it's to a 2.3. And so, so I, for me to apply to law schools, it was really because I had nothing to lose. I was told when I was seven years old and I was arguing with an aunt that I should be a lawyer. And I said, okay, I'm going to be a lawyer. And so that was what I'd always had in my mind. And so when I finished college with an accounting degree, I definitely didn't want to be an accountant.

that's what my dad did and it just seemed really boring. And so I decided to go to law school and I got into multiple law schools with the lowest GPA probably ever to get accepted into any law school. And so I took that as a sign from God that this is what I needed to do. And I went off and I, you know, I went to law school and in my last semester of law school, I ran into Michelle, my wife, who I had asked out for seven years. I had asked her out about a dozen times. She said yes every time. And then she canceled on me every time.

You know, and, and, and people will stop me and they say, well, what was it? Why do you think she can't like, it was that not a red flag? No, like that was God protecting us who we are now, like our marriage, our family, everything from who I was then while he was building me into the man that I needed to be the man that she deserved and the man that I needed to be, to be able to take care of her, you know, and to be a good husband and a good father. And it took way longer than that seven years for me to get there, but.

At least I had that foundation by the time she said yes and she showed up. So that was 2010 and we've been together ever since. I think, yeah, let me jump in here before we fully transition. I want to go back and you have all of this knowledge and experience in the pro-life movement. Now you deal with men, you deal with some really, really powerful men in society and you see this stuff every day. If you could go back and I forget what

ages said you were, but if you could go back in college and have the same conversation on that first night with the young lady who told you she was pregnant, how would that look differently today than what it did then? Yeah, that's a really good question. That's a really good question. Super important. So I, my mind was focused on baby. Her mind was focused on her. So we were, we were talking about the same thing, but we were having two different conversations. ⁓

You know, and what I'm about to say is supported at this point is supported by research, but, it made sense to me before I knew the research that what I should have been doing is speaking to her concerns, you know, because.

where I was saying, I can't, you can't kill our baby. What she was thinking and what, what women think in general when it comes to abortion is how am going to afford this? Am I going to be alone? You know, how's this going to affect my life? All these questions that they have about how being pregnant or having a baby is going to affect them. And that's not what I was talking about. And so

But what I would do differently is I would speak to her concerns. You know, whether or not that would have a change, I don't know, but that's the right way to handle that situation. was, you know, like I said, it was something that was completely new and unexpected to me. I didn't know how to handle that situation. I just knew that it couldn't happen. And so I was speaking to it not happening. think it's really important as well.

You know, I mean, the things that you just brought up, I'm sitting here thinking about, and I don't know the statistics at all, but I would imagine that they're a lot higher for single mothers, young mothers, things like that than someone who's already been in a marriage for a couple of years who, you know, buys a house, has some security around. I would imagine that, you know, taking out the outliers, that it's those insecurities and those sorts of things that really lead women down that path.

or lead to help. Yeah. Fear financial. mean, financial fears are a really big one. And then, and I think from her perspective, and this is just remembering the conversations, but from her perspective, there was the social fear as well, you know, and the stigma of, being pregnant versus quietly taking care of it so that no one would ever know. Cause obviously there would be a stigma if abortion were publicized as well. Right. So

But we're not comparing the public stigma of abortion to the public stigma of pregnancy. We're comparing quietly handling the situation to the public stigma of pregnancy. So it's, it's really tough. And, and while, while I would definitely say there are no guarantees that handling it that way will have any different outcome, that's the right way to handle it. It is to speak to the concerns of, of the mother. ⁓

to just let her know that she's not going to be alone, that you're going to be there for her, whatever that looks like. I know it doesn't necessarily mean marriage.

It means, you know, as a father, as a co-parent. So, so I think, you know, in a sense that was, that was an example of failed masculinity too, because I was not assuring her, you know, I was acting like a boy concerned about this issue and I wasn't acting like a man concerned about her feelings and her, her concerns. And so, so I think that's a really important thing.

to let anybody that encounters that situation know. And that's really why, you know, God inherently designed us to be married and all of these things before we start bearing children in the first place, Right. You know, you go back to sex before marriage and all of that, it all just intertwines into this culmination of healthy masculinity, femininity, and just healthy family as well. Yeah.

That's one of those weird things that I think comes with retrospect. Like it's really easy for me today to tell my kids, you know, and my oldest is 10, but we are very open with them because well, because I do this, you know, and, and, and I speak about it and I've heard my story so many times, I can't just then leave them in the dark about it. we answer the questions they have, you know, and I think.

Michelle and I are both very clear that correct way to have handled it would have been to wait until we were married. I have to, I have to be careful not to say, you know, I would go back and do anything differently because I wouldn't confuse a lot of people. But like we talked about before we came on, like every single thing that has happened is God building me into the person that I am today and everything that's happening right now. This conversation is building me into the person that he wants me to be tomorrow. And so, you know, I would not go back and change anything.

But I can use that experience to guide my children to make different and better decisions. And so I believe that sex should be saved for marriage. And I believe that based on experience. And it's not just because of the abortion. It's because of the emotional bond. It's because of all the things that come.

you know, outside of, you know, external forces that come along with an unhealthy sexual behavior and relationship. so, so that, that is something that is part of the message, but it's a much harder thing to you know? And I don't know that I'm the right person at this point in my, in my life or career to sell it. I will say it because I believe it.

And, know, and I love when people are debating me on abortion and they say that it's not preventable, that pregnancy's pregnancy's not preventable. I mean, I went for like 30 minutes with somebody the other day because they said pregnancy is not preventable. I was like, are you seriously telling me that that. That people like outside of outside of rape, which is a really big deal, but outside of rape, that pregnancy is not preventable, you know? And, and, and he didn't get it. Like he was like, yes, I'm telling you that.

because in his mind, there is no situation where people don't have sex. But it is preventable if you don't have sex. Abstinence is the cure for abortion. But what I'm fighting for is once the baby's already there, right? That's the battle that we're currently in is the baby is already there, let's not kill the baby. And ⁓ again, that's a tough thing for a man because we've been told to be silent. And it was another eight years after treatment before I shared my story again.

You know, it was at a retreat, a men's retreat where men were sharing all these stories. And it was just very powerful because these are men that were older than me, that I respected, that I knew. ⁓ and they're sharing these stories about just the hardest things they've ever gone through. Some of it was their own doing and some of it just happened. You know, one of the, one I remember the most is this, this man whose 10 year old son, ⁓ shot himself in the rifle.

died, you know, and, and, and we live in a community where hunting season is always happening. And so this 10 year old kid knew how to use a gun, had been safety. There was a lock on the safe. Like this isn't a gun control issue. You know, everything was done right. And this still happened. And hearing these stories.

from these men, you know, I just felt like, Hey, I'm in a super safe place right now. can finally unload this. because at this point, the only people that knew about it were, ⁓ well, I Michelle knew about it that I shared with her, then my dad and the young lady and her mom and, ⁓ the counselor treatment and a pre-hinal. And so, so I shared.

And this is why I'm doing what I'm doing right now, Steve, because I shared it. And what happened next is three different men came up to me privately and said, I've never told anybody this in 20 years, in 30 years, you know, but, but I lost a child to abortion when I was 19 or 20. And, and what I realized was that me sharing and then loading didn't just like relieve me of the burden, but it helped other men to heal as well.

And every single time that I've spoken about this, um, and it's, happens on social media. Like I'll get DMS from people seeing videos. I've never told anybody this because men were told not to talk about it and men aren't talking about it because men aren't talking about it. And so that is why I'm talking about it. Like, I think that that is, that is the key is to share as many stories, um, as we possibly can as part of.

what I'm doing now and now, you know, what I'm doing now with men for life, this nonprofit was not in my plans. I was practicing law and I was doing great and I didn't really like it. And I knew I wanted to stop, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I stopped in 2021 and I shut down my office in 2022. And I've been sharing my story at different events and this organization called me and said, Hey, we want you to come run this organization. And I said, absolutely. Like there is no chance.

that I'm going to run a nonprofit. I don't know how to do that. And I have an idea how much you're going to pay and I'm not interested. 18 months, I told them no and worked with a consultant on these business plans. And I was like psyched and ready and on an airplane on the way to go meet with them. And God said, you're going to go run this nonprofit. And it wasn't a question. It was a command. Like God said, you're going to go run this nonprofit.

It's like, okay. And so I got off the plane and I went into this meeting and I, know, and this was like, this was a big deal. Like we had played this guy six figures to help us with this, with this business. And I set all the paperwork down and I said, here's everything we've been working on, but this just happened. And I wanted him to say, Sean, this is a horrible idea. That way I could turn around and make a blame, you know, for not listening to God. And.

He said, and keep in mind, I don't know if it's part of life. I've never asked. Like, I don't care. That's not why I hired him. But he said, Sean, this is a great idea. Basically, it'll get you everything that you've been telling me that you want to get out of life. And so I said, okay. And I turned back around and got on the plane and it had been four months since I'd talked to these people. And I emailed them and I said, hey, I don't know if you guys are still looking, but if you are, I will take the job. And that was in June of last year. So June of 2024.

So August of 2024, I set back this position and with the first goal of sharing as many stories as possible so that it could be heard by as many people as possible. you know, taking a podcast that did not exist and from a podcaster, I did not know what he was doing and just interviewing these people and sharing, you know, in the first six months.

Through June of this year, we had 500,000 views on our videos across all platforms.

Not all the people who need to hear it from the standpoints of men who have been impacted and need to know they're not alone. A lot of it to people who need to hear it because they're pro-choice and they need to yell at me and argue with me so that we can, you know, make some ground there. But that validates for me that I'm doing the right thing because that's a lot. know, 500,000 views on a topic that nobody wants to talk about.

So that was the first thing. You want to know what? So a lot going on there once again, Sean, the spirit. I'm trying to pause because I know that I can, I can go on forever. So you, you just talked about these, you know, people who want to come on and argue and you know, be loud and we all know, you know, how those people react to things. And we also know that we're in a social media world where you can be totally polarizing and say whatever you want, whenever you want.

without being punched in the mouth. It's the same way in the masculinity spectrum, right? I never say anything hateful towards women or anything else, but because I stand up for men, I've had death threats. I mean, you get all the same stuff, I'm sure. But you know, there's a lot of people out there who, you know, I would say that used to be pro-life that believe that this is just a dead issue that we're never gonna win. What would you say to those men and women out there who are in that position?

You know, the way that I look at this is that we've been approaching it the wrong way. ⁓ And that's not to second guess anything that's been done by other people because maybe we needed to be approaching it the way that we have in order to get to where we are today. But I believe, and I don't know if I said this when we recording it before, but I believe that abortion is the product of failed masculinity. I believe that no one has benefited from abortion more than weak men seeking to escape responsibility. ⁓

you know, and those are the ones that are allowed to talk about it, right? Like I'm not allowed to talk about it because I don't have a uterus, but if I support abortion, like I can say anything I want. So the people, the men championing abortion are the ones who are benefiting from it. Like those aren't real men. No real man is, is going to say, Hey, I'm okay with you killing my baby because I don't want to get into your business. Like that is, that is failed masculinity. And I think that, I think that, that the answer.

is to reclaim masculinity. think that the answer is a cultural shift. In the, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but in the pro-life movement, which I'll use that term to mean everyone, there's a couple different factions. Abolitionists, the abolitionists are working to criminalize abortion, which would include criminal prosecution of the mother. And then there's the pro-life movement.

everyone else. The abolitionists will refer to them as the pro-life establishment. ⁓ you know, like I think everybody's heart is in this. So I don't think we need to be diametrically opposed here. But they are. And so the pro-life movement as a whole, excluding the abolitionists, do not believe that ⁓ we need to be criminalizing mom. You know, it's about changing the hearts and minds.

And what I would suggest is that even if we criminalize abortion, like even if the, and when I say these people are opposed, like abolitionists will propose legislation which criminalizes abortion. The pro-life movement, everyone else will, ⁓ you know, like the right to life organizations in the States will openly oppose that legislation. And it goes both ways. You know, the pro-life movement will propose incremental

legislation and the abolitionists will openly oppose that. So, so what I believe is that even if we were to criminalize abortion, we still have to change the hearts and minds. Like we still have to have a cultural shift. And I believe that cultural shift comes with men. I believe that what we have is generations of men who have been, who have been, you know, not just in the abortion argument, like, like this is, and this is what you're talking about, right? Like you talk about masculinity and you just get like, like set on fire in effigy.

And me too, because this is where my head's at and this is where the work for Men for Life is when it comes to solving abortion is reclaiming masculinity. The problem is we have Andrew Tate, right? And people like him who are selling this false masculinity that is self-serving, you know, and self-aggrandizing. know, and I know, look, I saw a post to me the other day where he talks about God. So he throws God in there every once in a while, but he's not living a godly life. And so...

You know, he's misogynistic and it's just, that is toxic masculinity. know, toxic mass, of course, toxic masculinity exists. Not all masculinity is toxic, but those people exist and that's super toxic. And then the problem is that they're so popular because young men want something. They want something more. They know that they don't have it. They know that it's been shut out and they want something greater. And, these are the only people feeding it to them. Right. And so, so.

So what I believe is that real masculinity, biblical masculinity, masculinity, which means to protect, to provide, to lead, to serve, to live for something greater than self. Like that is what we need to impart upon these next generations of young men. Because if we can get them excited about living for something greater than themselves, about having an identity greater than themselves, the example that I always use because it resonates, whether you've seen the movie or not is, is the scene from gladiator where he is in the arena.

Like you already know what I'm gonna say. He's in the arena, right? And Commodus is, the Emperor Commodus is down there and he's like, you will take off your helmet and tell me your name. And he turns around, he says, takes off his helmet and he says, my name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, general of the armies of the Norse, something of the Felix legions and father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance in this life or the next. And in the book that I'm writing, I write it all out and I describe it as well as I can, that entire scene, because it's so powerful.

I also say I'm including a QR code to the video because I cannot match that. It's so powerful. And any man who's seen that, you know, the hair stand up on his arms and the adrenaline's rushing, you know, and your heart's speeding up. And any woman that sees that, you know, has that same sense of this is a man because he in 23 seconds, I timed it in 23 seconds, he says, this is who I am. This is who I'm fighting for. This is why I'm fighting. And this is what I'm going to do about it. And it's not about him.

Right. It's about something greater and that is what true masculinity is. And so, so what I want to do or we want to do with men for life is to really help to change the culture when these young men come into the pregnancy centers to impart upon them that there is something greater than themselves to live for. That might be a message they've never heard. You know, most of them haven't seen the movie gladiator, you know, or Rocky or Rambo or any of the movies you and I grew up with. And, you know, but to know that.

And it goes deeper than that. You know, you look at any great hero movie, my son's, my oldest son's first movie to go watch was we were somewhere with my mother-in-law and my wife and daughter girls went shopping. So I took him to watch a movie and it was two and we watched Thor the dark world. So we just got super into Marvel movies and, in the first Thor, right? Like he gets his power taken from him. And then, and then it's at that moment when he decides he's ready to sacrifice himself for everyone else, that he becomes worthy again. You know, you look at

at every single one of those movies without me walking through every Marvel movie that exists. You you look at every single one of those movies and when the hero really comes to light is when they decide to sacrifice themselves for something greater than themselves. And that is what it means to be a man. And so when these young men come into the pregnancy centers, what we're working on right now is a curriculum for the pregnancy centers because they understand that 70 % of women have said that the most influential person in their decision to choose life or to choose abortion is the father of the child. ⁓

70. 70 % 70%. So pregnancy centers. Say it again. That that supports everything that you just said. Yes. So the pregnancy centers have started like telling mom, like when you come in, bring dad. And so we've got 20 to 25 minutes with dad is my understanding from these centers before the ultrasound, you know, while mom's doing whatever mom needs to do before they bring them both in to see the ultrasound. And so in that 20 to 25 minutes,

The goal of our program with Men for Life is to get that young man excited and inspired about being something greater than himself so that he'll come back. And that's it. Like, I don't need to talk to him about pregnancy. I don't need to talk to him about being a dad. You know, I'm not going to prepare him in 20 minutes to be a dad. Talking about diapers is a waste of time. But if I can inspire him to come back and to engage with other men who are also inspired to something greater, then we can help him to be excited to be a man.

And if we can help them to be excited to be a man, then you can be excited to be a father, you know, because that's part of the problem is that the women want a man to help them. You know, they don't want a boy to help them to raise this child. They want a man, but young men don't know where to get that. And they're looking at it in all the wrong ways, looking forward and all the wrong places. And so, so we really want to set an example that is in contrast to hate to use the tape brothers over and over and over again, but

You know, they are just like the, forerunners for that type of masculinity. Yeah. I, you know, I, go out and ride my bike a lot in the mornings and things like that. And I'll be playing music and you know, Apple does its little thing. And then all of a sudden you're way off in left field, right? Left field. Sorry. I get these screwed up. I guess I need to look at that guy. ⁓ anyways, you know, the other day I was just mindlessly, you know, listening to music and thinking about other things and what have you.

And I looked down at my phone to see who this is, and it was, you know, all about genitalia that was coming up across my phone. you know, it's just, it's no wonder, right, with these devices and kids' hands and everything else, how much... I don't like using the word toxic masculinity. I think it's either mature or immature, right? But how much immature masculinity is really out there, you know? There's how much our kids are exposed to. So my question comes back to these young men.

You know, you have 20, 25 minutes, you want them to come back. Then what? Right. What does that look like to take this generation who was, you know, normalized? They didn't normalize it. Other people normalized it for them, but normalized objectification of women, you know, family units don't matter. Divorce of course is always on the rise. You know, most of these, ⁓ young men probably don't even have fathers in their own homes. Where do we start with? So, you know,

And I think this is where our program is different than the other programs that exist is ⁓ it's not until week five that we talk about pregnancy. You know, in the first four weeks, what we want to do is we want to build, ⁓ you know, what does it mean to be a man? You know, and we can provide definitions based on like what I said earlier, right? To protect, to provide, to lead, to serve, and to live for something greater than ourselves. But to point out like, what does that really mean? And, you know, I...

have the benefit, I think, of receiving the Socratic method in law school. You know, just questions, questions, questions. And then my kids go to a non-traditional school where it's a Socratic school. ⁓ And just to be able to watch them grow. that's how we have conversations with our kids as well. So it's not about indoctrinating these young men into what I believe or Men for Life believes or what you believe is a real man.

It's about getting them to formulate that in their own mind, but providing them with examples of what it means to live for something greater than ourselves. Because when we're only living for ourselves, you know, whether, whether we understand this or know this or agree with it or disagree with this, when we're only living with ourselves, we really aren't living to our full potential. You know, there's only so far we can go if we're living for ourselves. Somebody pointed out to me the other day that one of the things that irritate cells is, know, make all the money, get a Bugatti and then you'll get the woman you want. Right. But the reality is.

make all the money, get a Bugatti, and then you'll get the woman who wants that. And that's a different thing. You know, one of those will provide you with hollow meaningless relationship that could end the moment she wants something different. The other, getting the woman that you truly want is, is meaningful and fulfilling. And, you know, and, and you're looking for something deeper than a superficial relationship. And so just to be able to provide examples to the young men, ⁓

that lets them know that this exists, that living for something greater than yourself exists. And then getting into what does it mean to be pro-woman? What does it really mean to be pro-woman? To contrast that with misogyny, to contrast that with the objectification, to explain that even though maybe your parents didn't have a relationship that continued, maybe they got divorced, maybe they were never married, maybe they were never friends.

You know, that doesn't mean that that's the life that you are consigned to. There is something greater in having a long-term, having a marriage, having a long-term relationship with your wife, you know, with, building upon that, you know, with working on yourself and, ⁓ and, kind of getting them on that, what does it mean to be a protector? What does it mean to be a provider? You know, what does it mean to lead and to serve? And then, you know, what does it mean to be a dad?

You know, what does it mean to support this woman? We've already talked about being pro-woman. What does it mean to support this woman as she's pregnant? What does it mean to support her after she's pregnant? You know, after she gives birth, you know, what does it mean to, to be a family man? You know, and again, to people like you said, and I agree, ⁓ may not have had that in their life, you know, so, so you're giving them something that they've never experienced just like Andrew Tate is, right? But he's giving them the, the, the money.

You know, he's giving them something that just to be completely honest, he's giving them something that most people will never experience. and look, I'm someone who believes that, that I don't care where you're from or where you, where you've been. If you work hard, you can achieve anything you want. Like a hundred percent. I am an example of that having been homeless and unemployed to, ⁓ you know, and I didn't like get out of treatment and dad said, here's a check, go to college. You know, I got a treatment and took out over a hundred thousand dollars in loans. ⁓

In my first year in law school, when we weren't allowed to work, I was on food stamps, I guess it's called SNAP. ⁓ And now I've got more than I need and more than I ever thought I'd have. And so I believe that anyone can achieve that. I don't believe that I'm special in that sense. I just believed I could achieve it. And so I did. And so I believe anybody can achieve that. the percentage of people who have Bugatti is really small. That's the people who only want a Bugatti.

And so what is it you really want out of life? Because the percentage of people who can have a happy marriage, if they work at it, is exponentially higher than in the Bugatti crowd. And look, why not have both? If you're somebody who just really wants a Bugatti, cool, but wouldn't you like to have a happy marriage too? And so I've really just imparting on these people what it is that I would almost say that it's probably easier to get a Bugatti if you have a happy marriage, because you got somebody supporting you along the way.

I'm going to send you a text after we get off here, Sean, but... it to a free Bugatti? No, no. This actually is the... So on the Bible, it talks about how a woman is supposed to be a helper, but the word helper didn't translate very well from Hebrew. And what it really means, and you backtrack it into Hebrew, is just way more phenomenal as what a wife should be, right? Rather than a helper, someone who cleans the dishes, right? Right.

So, you know, we talk about the Bugatti, we talk about, you know, the happy marriage and you can have both. But what I found for people who truly serve, right, when they learn how to serve, they might have it down on their vision that they want a Bugatti, but they never get it. And it's not because they can't afford it, it's because other things become a priority, right? They take their mind off from that material object. So speaking of service, right, you're in a nonprofit, which...

speak service through and through, right? Yeah. You have this format and it's going out to pregnancy centers and things like that. You're only one man. Right. So how does society help you in your mission? Man, I really appreciate that question. You can help us at Men For Life by donating. You can go to our website, menforlife.org slash donate is the place that you can go. know, every little bit helps. You know, we're projecting that finishing this

curriculum, includes the digital aspect, the app, the training is going to cost about $625,000. So, so of course, you know, any little bit helps every little bit. so anybody who's, who's interested in, and of course, you can also go to the website and there's a place where you can contact us if you have questions or if you want to talk about it or.

Or if you're hearing this and you are a man who has experienced abortion and has never felt comfortable sharing it, you know, and you want to talk about that, I will personally speak to anyone who contacts us. And I've built this great network of people who provide abortion healing and based on your location, based on your story, can connect you with ⁓ them as well. You know, and then prayers, I believe, I believe a hundred percent in the power of prayer. ⁓

You know, I would not be alive or not for the power of prayers. ⁓ Maybe you're in a situation where you can't ⁓ help financially. You know, I'll take your prayers like, like a hundred percent. Like, and I mean that very genuinely. The other thing is once this program comes out, there are pregnancy centers and everywhere. And we need more than the program because I can create and you know, and I do have a little bit of help. So together we can create this program that really can change the culture.

You know, it's gonna take time, but it can change the culture. But if I create a program to help men to learn how to be men and the only people at the pregnancy centers are women, it's not gonna be effective. The pregnancy centers see this need. And the other thing that they have asked me over and over and over is how do we get men to, ⁓ to help us facilitate this? And just as much Steve, as I think there's, as I think we can agree that there's this yearning in young men to something greater, to learn what it is, to learn what masculinity is. There's a

need in men our age to raise up the next generation of men. Like it's built into us to want to usher them forward, you know, and, to sit back, you know, and to, to pine over like how this generation of young men just sucks, you know, and they're going nowhere and they don't know what masculinity is, but then to not do anything about it. That's failed masculinity in itself. So, you know, there are opportunities everywhere to help with this.

like on the ground, you know, and that's just as important as any money that we could get is to, is to have men serving at these centers and helping them to, raise up these men because, because this is the answer. And you mentioned it before, the work that I'm doing is on abortion, right? The work that I'm doing is pro-life, but imagine the shift if we could culturally shift young men into being good, biblically masculine men, the impact that has on everything, not just on abortion.

You know, the impact that has on everything. So it's a big deal, you know, and it's a great opportunity for any man who's like, man, you know, my kids, I can't coach my kids anymore because they're too old. Right. And that's one way that we assure in the next generation. Like we coach, but you can coach these men into what it means to be a man. And we can do that. Start the day guys. We can do that out in our community starting today. You know, I mean, just walking up and having a conversation with someone. I was riding my bike this morning and you know, you say hello to people. make sure.

I just try and say hello to every man that I see cause he's probably struggling with something. And it amazes me how many people you say hello to and they don't even respond back in today's generation. Right. Let's normalize that. That could be a big start, but I would imagine Sean, that when you get this program, I'll build up, it'll be systems frameworks, training, things like that. So it can be a package delivered to each one of these facilities where a man can step in and learn the framework and start helping right away. That's right.

And then we'll have Men for Life, we'll have training and like mastermind for the facilitators so that we can continue to grow, you know, and tweak and make it work as we decided to create it. So we can grow and make this work for ⁓ as long as possible. And that 12 week program that we're creating will transfer into a 12 month program after they complete it to continue building on it because you're not going to build a man in 12 weeks. That's awesome. Awesome, man. So one thing that we didn't get to

Well, we didn't get to a couple of things. Tell your beautiful wife that I'm sorry that we didn't talk enough about her, but you also have a ⁓ 10 year, believe history as a divorce lawyer. That's right. And we didn't talk about that. just real quick, I don't want to take you into the long engine again, but are there any lessons that directly apply from being a divorce attorney to the work that you're doing today? Man, that's a great question. You know, yes, because

I saw a lot of brokenness as a divorce turning, you know, but one of the things that I saw a lot of was men who were stuck in this idea of I'm a provider, meaning only. I go to work and I make money, you know, but not being present at home. And honestly, that's where I was when I stopped practicing law. That's the reason I stopped practicing law. Cause I was not proud of five little kids and I was not present when I was home. I was not the man, the father, you know, I was not living to make money, but I was living to make money. Right.

And so, but that was the thing I think that I saw the most. think that is what ends up happening, you from my experiences, that that leads to a lack of communication about everything else. or an inability to communicate about everything else leads to the man finding the easy way. The easy way is to go to work, make money, make money, make money. You know, I'm doing my job. I'm providing, I'm making money. And then what happens when the divorce happens is, well, this is my money. I worked for this money. She should not get half of it.

You know, I can't believe I have to pay child support this much in child support. This is my money. And that's not, that's not where we started, right? When you got married, we started with, this is our relationship and I'm going to work for our relationship. And so something, something extreme has happened between point A and point B. If point A is I'm going to work so that we can have this relationship and have a great life. And point B is, but this is my money. Right. And, and I think that's a sense of, of immaturity. think that.

All leads back to that, that, that lack of masculinity, meaning the living for something greater than yourself. Um, you know, it is easy to get stuck in that provider mode, but providing means more than making money, providing, you know, relationally providing emotionally, providing your presence, providing, providing the mentorship to the next generation. You know, there's just so much. I think that.

I think that that's probably, you know, without getting into a bunch of examples, I think that's probably the one thing that I saw, you know, is ⁓ that. And then the communication part. I know that everybody will say that money is the reason people get divorced. And I disagree. They may think that's why they're getting divorced when it happens, but it's a lack of communication. And so if we can build upon these young men, you know, foster that communication.

you know, real communication, like deep conversations. They don't have to deep conversations with me if they don't want to, but they should be having deep conversations with the woman that they're planning on spending the rest of their life with. And so fostering them the ability to do that and teach them to do that, then I think that that can help lasting relationships. Absolutely great advice. That was the problem with me and my wife's marriage for much too long was communication, you know, and without communication, you don't build trust. Without trust, you don't have a relationship. So anyways, man, this is...

Absolutely awesome. I don't feel like we had enough time, but we'll of course have a lot more conversations after this. Yes. Guys go out there and support this mission. You know, this, is of course a pro-life mission, but it's a masculinity mission. It is our responsibility to change this culture. So go support the mission, go mentor a young man, go mentor your own kids. Yes. Sean, God bless you, man. Thank you for coming on. Hey, thank you, Steve. I really enjoyed this and I look forward to doing it again.

Absolutely.

You have just experienced the heat and pressure of the forge. Remember, words without action are meaningless. Now after the heat of the forge, shape your thoughts, quench your brain, then put your new tools to use, adding to your leadership. Tune in next week for more lessons from the forge.