National Conveyancing Month Special: The rigors of conveyancing

In this special National Conveyancing Month edition of the Today’s Conveyancer Podcast, host David Opie welcomes Convey Law Managing Director Janine Wellington to discuss her views on talent, training, culture, and the systemic challenges facing modern conveyancing. 

In a career which has taken her from fee earner to senior leader, Wellington discusses the challenges the profession faces in attracting and retaining conveyancers; at a time when in their heart or hearts, most conveyancers would hesitate to recommend the career to their own children!

Wellington shares how Convey Law have implemented structured training, progression pathways, and pastoral support, including; a multi‑stage “Convey Law Pathway” combining practical training, academic modules; a strong emphasis on developing resilience, tenacity, and confidence; clear progression ladder; and a culture that encourages juniors to ask questions, set boundaries, and develop people‑skills essential for client care.

She acknowledges she benefits from the time, money, and technology investment the firm can make by virtue of its size but with many firms still reliant on outdated systems or a lack of dedicated training structures, career development harder to achieve.

The prevalence of hybrid working brings additional obstacles as the traditional model of “learning by osmosis”, sitting beside experienced colleagues, listening to calls, and gaining confidence through constant informal interaction, is diminished. 

Culture, regulation, AML and due diligence, tax advisers status, digitisation are all topics the podcast as the discussion meanders around the rigors of coalface conveyancing. 

Despite everything though, Wellington is optimistic. She believes the profession can return to being a rewarding, respected career. Better fees, better recognition, and clearer guidance are essential. Above all, she insists, people will always need to buy and sell homes; the industry has no choice but to evolve.

The Today's Conveyancer podcast can be found on your preferred podcast provider and also at www.todaysconveyancer.co.uk. Subscribe and listen in for all the latest conveyancing industry news and views. 

Thank you to our podcast sponsors LEAP Legal Software

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:39

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SPEAKER_02 0:52

Hello, welcome along to a special edition of the Today's Conveyancer podcast because we're releasing this as part of National Conveyancing Month, which we're currently in. I mean, we're not at the point of recording, but uh National Conveyan Month is for the duration of March, and it's an opportunity really for conveyancers to take control of their destiny, I suppose. We've always said that National Conveyan Week and National Conveyancing Month was all about conveyancers raising their profile, being much clearer with consumers and with other parts of the transaction about the importance of their role. And I mean, who better to talk about this with than somebody who lives and breathes conveyancing? Uh, Janine Wellington, Managing Director of Convey Law. Great to have you on the podcast, Janine.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Thank you. Thank you. Great to be here, Dave. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

In the first instance, uh, it's always nice to get a bit of background from our guests. So tell us a little bit about yourself and uh your your plotted conveyancing history.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Plotted conveyancing history. Okay, so went to law school, as like many others. Well, 25 years ago or so, qualified into the legal profession, very much a fee owner in conveyancing from day one, worked my way up in in high street firms and corporate firms to become a partner, had various roles of head of departments, and that's residential conveyance and then also commercial and property. So a mixed bag, really. I'd worked at Convey Law back around 2013, 2014 as one of their fee owners, and I'd left for the bright light somewhere else, but was very much drawn back in around four years ago now. Came back as a legal director and was appointed MD of the business uh year ago, January.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Part of National Conveyancing Month is all about encouraging people into the industry. How do we get new recruits into the sector? It's a conversation that we've had at length through our joint involvement in the Conveyancing Foundation. And I know it's a challenge that both Convey face as does the whole of the sector. I mean, I'm not sure that there are a lot of people in your shoes who are, you know, even leading conveyancing businesses who might encourage their children to go into conveyancing. I mean, that's certainly something that I've heard said by conveyances to me. I mean, is is that is that dare I dare I ask you, is that your view?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

I think it probably is actually. My son has just completed his SQE and is in London about to start his training contract, and he wants to stay completely away from property and conveyance. And I think that's probably having seen me go through what I have over the last 20 years. So, and there is definitely something to be said for that. But actually, what we need to do as leaders in the industry and as leaders of businesses is galvanize those trainees and pull them together to show them that it can present and can be a great career, but it has to be done right. And I think we've probably fallen a little bit short of that over the last decade in getting our trainees and junior conveyances to where they need to be. Obviously, it doesn't help with the additional pressures that are coming onto us and through us day by day, week by week, month by month at the moment, but ultimately it's it's something that I really feel strongly about, especially at at Convey, in allowing our more junior staff to be able to have that clear career progression plan, assisting and supporting them to actually make them into great conveyances, because there are there's conveyances and then there's great conveyances. And I find unfortunately at the moment we're probably outweighing, even though there's still not a lot of them, conveyances over great conveyances. So it's it's something that I really hold dear to my heart in wanting to change because it it can be great when it's done properly.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

I I always see that I mean organizations like Convey, which employs what, 100-150 staff?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, 150 odd. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

There is a clear sort of opportunity and progression in in much larger organizations. And perhaps we'll get on to how you sort of nurture talent and that kind of thing in the course of the discussion. But I it's so much more difficult for much smaller organizations who don't have that resource to enable junior staff to learn from the ground up. You know, I mean, often it's uh it's well throwing people into the fire, isn't it? Quite often.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah, it's time, it's money, and it's technology, really. And the smaller firms certainly don't always have those three things. You usually find managing directors or partners of smaller firms are very much fear and in themselves. I don't do that at the moment. I assist on complex matters, but I don't have a caseload. So I have time there to be able to strategize and help our training, and it it's money. Ultimately, you usually have to put some aside for training resources. And again, you know, the smaller firms might not always have that available, and it's technology. I have lots of friends who are in smaller firms who are really still running on very old case management systems, not even thought about AI, and we're doing all of those things at Convey. You know, our processes and procedures allow us to be able to put our trainees in the best position to be able to convey property in the next 10 years because it's certainly on the change and it's certainly it's certainly going to be completely different in the next five years, I think.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

I want to come on to risk and process and all that kind of thing. Well, just before we do, what do you make of the conversation point about the difference that COVID made in terms of working from home, working in the office, that whole I mean, it's been described to me as learning by osmosis, actually sitting next to their partner or the fee earner and taking on board their demeanour on the phone, the way in which they're doing things, and and you know, having somebody there to ask questions of anything. I mean, you're you're nodding along, it's obviously a an issue you recognise.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Oh, absolutely, because that's exactly how I trained. I I sat with a partner when I when I left university and you know, I watched how they spoke on the phone. I they they gave me 10-15 minutes on a file whenever I needed it, because I was sat there and I could openly ask those questions and ultimately interrupt them, of course, but not always having to pick up the phone or or or dial in a number on a screen to get a video call, which is what a lot of our trainees have to do today prior to COVID, uh after COVID, should I say. If you look at Convey, 30% of our staff work in the office, 30% of them are remote, and then 40% are hybrid. So we are quite lucky in that we've got a 70% kind of ratio where we see our colleagues for a few days each month. There's only 30% of them that are totally remote, and we have to rely on being able to share screens to carry out training sessions with them, which we we do, you know, we do that at least twice twice a month with all of our conveyances and assistants. But we've had to adapt and we've had to change, and it's certainly not easy. It's certainly not easy creating a culture when you have hybrid and remote workers, let alone allowing them and enabling them to train in the way in which they they deserve and you want.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Is that a deliberate policy on the part of the business to have 70% of your staff office-based in some in some way?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah, no, it's not it's not deliberate. Ultimately, we are very flexible in how you can work for us at Convey. So we we never say no to anyone, irrespective of where you sit in the country. But you know, we do we do recognize that for those that are remote, we have to change the way in which we do things. So we're constantly strategizing about how we can involve them daily, you know, and and what that means to us as a business and how we can organically grow from from a workforce that that is never going to be at the office.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

I mean, do you do you find that you're able to promote from within? I mean, you you know, you've made a rather pointed statement about good conveyances and and conveyances. I mean, that presents challenges from a staff turnover point of view, presumably as well. But there is a sort of clear pathway. And have you got any ideas or any statistics around the numbers of staff that you've brought through the business over the years?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

So we have 10, if we we have at least 10 chiefs, so who are our conveyancing managers, who are our top-level fee earners, all have a number of files each. If I look at those 10, every single one of them are homegrown through us, as generally been with the business between five and ten years. There's been others that have been less successful that have come in and and and just not been able to perhaps cope with the volume. Because it does take a certain kind of person to be a conveyancer, you have to be tenacious, you have to be resilient. And and even you may want those things, your your demeanour just may not allow for it. You know, we do train on those things now as well, actually, because we've realized that tenacity and resilience are major factors in in making a conveyancer into a great conveyancer. But yes, organic growth is huge for us in the Convey Group. That's where we see our success. We have the Convey Law Pathway, which we we can go through if you wanted to, but that's very much based on four sets of different modules, and that's a task list. How do you become a great assistant? So all of our conveyances will start, unless they come in already experienced, they will come in as a conveyances and assistant to one of our conveyances. They will carry out a number of modules within that conveyancer task list group. Then they have the practical modules that they sit, which cover off regulatory matters, risk and compliance, practical documents, accounting, knowing what an office account is, knowing what a client account is. Then they have the academic modules. So again, what I recognize from having studied the law that conveyancers can often know the process and know how to do something, but not necessarily understand why. So they don't understand the land law that perhaps sits behind that part of the transaction. So we have we cover off the English legal system, contract law, land law, family law, private client law, all little bits that actually interwove with a conveyancing transaction. And then last but not least, we have the convey culture principles module group where you know it's focusing on a quality and diversity, healthy habits, how do you bring your best self into work every day? How do you look after yourself? Because we have a certain responsibility, of course, to to enable our conveyances to be the best that they can be, but also they have a responsibility themselves to see what they can do to be that too. So, and then resilience and tenacity, as I've said, it's the the best you modules that we we cover off. So we've got that set clear pathway of those four groupings of those modules, and it's it's great actually, and every one of our trainees prays it. They do it whilst working as an assistant, but at the end of those six or nine months, they are then able to feed in on a very small number of cases. We look at around giving them 10 so they they settle in to what to know how to become that that that Fiona.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

I mean, it's interesting to you talk about the training covers off you know some of those resilience uh traits as well. I mean, can you train that? That that feels like it's innate.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

You can actually, you you you can you can grow somebody's confidence and it's and that's confidence in in knowing what you do and how you do it. It's confidence in knowing that you can ask questions of your senior management team, of your conveyancer. It's having confidence to be able to say no sometimes to a client, to an introducer, to me, even to say, hang on, you know, I need some space, I need some time, and and all of those things build up that resilience to be able to say I can deal with this, I I can cope with this, I can put this aside and actually just think I need to give myself five minutes to be able to move on and not crumble because conveyancing is constant pressure, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 13:20

What about people skills? I mean, one of the things that I often think about, and you know, through my own academic journey as well, I mean, I did a history degree and taught me very little about conveyancing or wills and probate, I must admit, a lot of that I've learned along the way. But you know, I remember very vividly going into my first job and just not having people skills or an understanding of people, and that's so critical to conveyancing, isn't it? I mean, we don't set our people up for success in in that sense, do we?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

No, no, we don't. Again, I think we've kind of recognized that that those people's skills are imperative in the success of really, I suppose, any profession, but but certainly in conveyance, and when you're having to deal with such a wide range of people, so it's your clients having to look after them, it's your introducers of business having to have that best relationship you possibly can, having to have good relationships with each other, because actually you are relying on each other as a conveyancer or an assistant or a manager to be able to get through that day together, to get through that week together, and to be able to effectively communicate. You know, again, it goes back to if it service comes down to communication and communication comes down to people skills, and we've kind of noticed that that ultimately that that is while it's certainly required in being the best that you can be and providing that best service that we want to, certainly at Convay Law.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

I was at a conference recently, and one of the sessions was about the the next generation of talents. And there's some really frightening stats about this new generation, uh, particularly around interpersonal skills. And I forget the statistics exactly, but a sizable majority of them don't like picking up the phone. Oh, yeah, they don't like particularly like responding to emails. Uh that you know, that's in in a in a business like ours, like like as you've highlighted, so interpersonal, yeah. That feels like a real challenge.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

It is a real challenge. It is a real challenge. But if you if you think if you've got colleagues who who are like that and of that generation, you also have clients who are the same too. So we are finding that more and more clients are not wanting to pick up the phone either. They're they're wanting apps or they they want an email. And if I think of myself, really, with my working hours, I generally don't want to speak to somebody throughout the day because I'm just too busy. But ultimately, I want to be able to email in my quick two-minute break whilst I'm having a cup of tea. And we're finding lots of clients are like that, and and so be it with introducers, but it's knowing when you do need to pick up that phone and having the courage to do it, which is what we're finding with with some of our colleagues in that you know, if you feel something is rumbling on a transaction, it's kill it with a telephone call because as soon as somebody hears your voice and they they feel confident and secure in what you're saying, then you you've resolved what was potentially an issue. And again, we train on those types of things, it it's knowing. But yes, you you are right, Dave, and those stats probably are frightening because I can imagine what they're like, and it's something that we're thinking about all of the time in in in terms of you know the the evolving business.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

What do you say to people who would perhaps level the accusation that what you do in the scale of business that you are is train people in your way of conveyancing rather than train people to be a conveyancer?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

That's yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you put that to me actually. I'm quite old-fashioned in that sort of going back to that pathway that I've looked at and sort of created with with other directors of the business. I want all of our conveyances to be conveyancers in that they know how to open a file and they know how to close a file and they can convey that property from start to finish. I know that there are other large businesses, and I've interviewed candidates from those businesses where they've only done certain parts of a transaction. We don't operate like that at Convey Law. Yes, we do have background teams who assist with certain elements, but our trainees are taught and are trained how to open a file and how to make an application for registration on completion and be able to close it effectively with a clear ledger balance. I'm a big advocate for them to know how to do everything on file. And I don't, I can't see yes for as long as I'm at Convey S operating now any other way.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Earlier on in the conversation, you you talked about the role that culture plays in training and and in an organization as well. And you know, I know that it's a big part of Convey law as well. But but and don't give me the sales pitch, but give me the practicalities of what you as a business do to ensure that that culture is embedded into the staff rather than you know it being an ethereal piece of paper on a wall or something along those lines.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, okay. So, you know, ultimately every business has a why. So obviously the the convey law why is to you know revolutionarize conveyancing and be the best at what we do and and kind of help and support and share best practice with others. But how you know, how do you do that? You know, so you've got the why, but how how do you fulfill that why really? So we've come up with with a number of cultural principles, there's six of them, which have actually become real life to us. Six principles. One is being service, so service to each other, how do we be kind to each other, how do we help each other, how do we get the jobs done, but service to clients, to introducers, giving obviously outside of our charitable endeavors, it's giving oneself to each other as well, sort of two minutes a day, four minutes a day, Kaiser and constant improvements, small improvements. How do we make small improvements to make it better, to make you better, to make processes better, to make the business better, belonging? How do we all belong? To another one of our principles of tribe, you know, we we call it tribe, we're we're a tribe, we're not a family because we can choose our tribe, we can't choose our family, and how do we belong to that? And then ultimately we do all of that by having fun, and that's our happy days where everyone comes together for two days a month and we do training, we have lunch together, you know, company pays for it, and then we have our philosophy which sits under those principles of choosing your attitude and playing, and it that's not childish behaviour, that's but just enjoying each other's company and it's being present, you know, listening to somebody if they're talking to you, and just making somebody's day, and that's by saying you look nice today, or actually that piece of work is is fantastic, and it's really, really lived. It's not just as you say written down on a piece of paper, and it is something that I have certainly noticed that has become real life for us, and and it's certainly helping us to retain our staff.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Thank you for that. I want to move on and and quiz the sort of managing director of a law firm element of your role, and talk about what you see as some of the challenges facing conveyancing at the moment. Uh we were chatting before we started the recording. You know, I know that you've responded to the consultation, for example, but you don't see that the consultation identifies or or really tackles some of the key things that we as a we as a profession face. So yeah, I'm kind of interested to to hear where you think the government needs some direction.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, I suppose the the major one for me is the ongoing due diligence expectations of conveyances. You know, and the consultation doesn't address that at all, really. I think there's a section on AML, if I remember rightly, it was before Christmas, wasn't it? There's an AML section where, you know, perhaps we should be sharing AML results much earlier on. I think that's about as far as it went with due diligence and expectations. You know, we are expected to be forensic analysis of source of funds and proof of wealth without being given any real guidance by the regulators on what their expectations are in that respect. It's all down to one's own judgment, which is fine. And we have put processes and procedures in place to be able to deal with that accordingly. I think in our transactions, there's about nine pinch points where that is discussed and assessed. And to be a conveyancer, you have to be a risk assessor out even outside of the law these days, which is something I never had to contend with when I first qualified back 25 years ago. And we talk about timelines, for example, and no doubt, absolutely no doubt to those two things, source of funds and proof of wealth, add on time to a conveyancing transaction. And AML results, of course, they will only take you so far. You know, they will look at the source and they will provide evidence of that source, but actually, where's that proof of wealth? Sits behind it, which is the more difficult part, but it just hasn't been addressed at all. It's it's the HMRC now, you know, in the last couple of weeks with regards to the tax advisory position. My thoughts on that are really question mark. You know, it's maybe that's a little bit personal, but I've looked at it and I just can't see in any way, shape, or form how it's deemed to be a good thing. I think it was imposed to higher the standards, but higher the standards of what, really? In in terms of tax advising, you know, we are certainly not tax advisers. We've never held ourselves out to be tax advisors. Sampdigi Land Tax is a personal tax, and technically the clients are telling you what tax they want you to pay. You know, it's not the other way around, you know, and no matter how you word it in your documentation, it looks like we're, you know, we're having to register or we're going to have to use third parties to assist us in that sort of post, I think it's the 18th of May we have to register by, is it? But we've had those conversations in the last few weeks, you know, and that I know the consultation paper didn't even touch on that, did it? But that's just another thing that's come in which has kind of not helped at all. And technology, look, I am a great believer in using technology as an aid to assist in our transactions. Absolutely. I'm I'm right there with any kind of AI that can progress and move it forward, but there has to be some joined up thinking with it all, and we are not seeing that anywhere throughout the industry. Everybody is creating their own products and hoping that it will bring it all together, but I don't I don't see that. And I go to lot of lots of events, and you know, these companies, it's great that these products are becoming available, but until such time that we have accepted electronic signatures, you know, I've been part of the land registry forum for years, and electronic signatures have been on that agenda every time we meet, and there is nothing new being ever said. And it's just disappointing because if we have a consultation from the government, actually they need to be looking at their own kind of departments to see how they can move this forward. I, you know, I'm not saying I you have to take it out to consultation, of course you do, but there were some real missives, I think, in in that paper that they just didn't even touch on, which I think where the real delays are in in property transactions at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

It's interesting to hear you talk about source of funds and source of wealth. I mean, that's come up in quite a number of conversations I've had uh recently, and it will be even more interesting to see how the transfer of that regulatory responsibility to the FCA pans out. My suspicion is that the FCA will be much less flexible than the existing regulators and probably much more hardline as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

But perhaps that's a good thing because at least then we know perhaps that's where we will know where we stand then with with regards to that. And I think we kind of sit, we sit between them and the regulator at the moment, and we, as I said, we have to use one's own judgment to think, okay, that all makes sense to us as an experienced conveyancer that you know that person, it source of funds and proof of wealth, we're happy to accept that and run that risk because it's a risk. You know, we recently had our CLC audit, and the majority of that was on source of funds and AML and proof of wealth. So it's it's big on their agenda, of course.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

And it has a huge impact, presumably, into coming back to the training element of what you've done.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

And you know, coming back to that point that we talked about, you know, the time that you invest in understanding you know land law and you know, transactional and all that kind of stuff, and then time and and effort invested in all the sort of ancillaries that sit around it and the risk and compliance, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Absolutely, absolutely. It's as big as, if not bigger, than those academic modules at the moment, because that's where the risk to the business is, and and that's what we have to cover off, you know, and that's where our insurers are interested, and and our regulator, of course. It it's huge. And we train everybody within the business on AML, irrespective of your position, because we feel that everybody needs to have a basic understanding of it, and then depending where you sit, will depend on the level of education and training you get in in connection with that. But yes, we're having to think about it all of the time, and you can't sit still with it. You really, you really can't.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

At the risk of ending the conversation on a downer, let's find out. I'm really intrigued to know whether you think there is a light at the end of this tunnel. We started this whole discussion by saying, would we recommend our children go and be a property lawyer or a conveyancer? And the truth was we probably wouldn't. But is there, in in your view, Janine, a light at the end of the tunnel?

SPEAKER_01 27:23

There absolutely is. And and look, I'm as I said, I'm a big advocate for being a conveyancer if it if it's right and if you get it right, and if you're in the right business and you have the right training. And I think you know, there's lots of work to be done outside of a business with with the government, with with technology, helping, you know, but I I think we can really get it back to where, you know, I I started in it 25 years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. I've obviously never left it, so that that paints a picture, but ultimately it's drawing those in that that haven't had that experience prior to what it's like at the moment. And actually, you know, it's it's recognition of fee earning as well. I think that's another kind of issue that we face at the moment in terms of challenging, you know, what is our appropriate fees. You know, we we kind of drove ourselves to the bottom of the fee scale for some reason 15 years ago. And we've never really quite recovered from that. So again, you know, it's about teaching our young trainees that they have value in their time and value in their worth, and don't be frightened to charge for the appropriate work that you're doing and be proud of what you are, be proud of being a conveyancer. And I will always say that I'm proud of what I do. And and I'd like to think my 10 trainees behind me would would be saying exactly the same, but but there is work to do, and I think it's it's a lot of heads that need to get together. It's the likes of these kind of podcasts where we're listening to people, the foot soldiers on the ground, effectively, to get it to where it needs to be. It's not going to go away, you know. People always want to buy and sell a house, so it's gonna have to come to a crescendo somewhere, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Well, hopefully that is a slightly uplifting way to end the discussion. Because it you know, it is, it's challenging out there, definitely. But through National Conveyancing Month, of course, people can get involved, as we said, in raising their profile, in uh extolling the virtue of the role of the conveyancer in in the transaction because it's absolutely critical. You know, to your point, people do not move home without one. So thanks so much for joining the podcast, Janine. Great to have had you uh on and thank you for sharing your insights and thoughts. Thanks very much, Dave. Thanks. The Today's Conveyancer Podcast is available on your preferred podcast provider. It's also available on today'sconveyancer.co dot uk. My thanks to Janine. Thank you as ever for listening and we'll see you again soon.