Excellent conveyancers lack time, tools and structure

There are excellent conveyancers across England and Wales, but they lack time, tools, and structural support to deliver the service they want.

That is the view of founder and CEO of Eden Conveyancing Bruce Griffin who joins host David Opie on the latest Today's Conveyancer Podcast. 

A residential and commercial property purchase fraught with delays, poor communication, and opaque processes drove Griffin to truly put his money where his mouth is, and launch Eden Conveyancing. Quite the plunge for someone who had spent 25 yeras in technology and property data. Coming from a data‑driven environment, he was struck by how inconsistent, even fundamentally flawed, property information is across the UK, from address identification to planning and energy data. 

Convinced he could create a positive experience around a life‑defining moment, he set about making the experience clearer, more transparent, and even enjoyable, especially for first‑time buyers; but acknowledges he was naïve coming into the sector. Collaboration, he says, is fundamental to efforts to improve the process

"I thought very naively, we could come in, create a great experience, and nothing could touch that."

Running a conveyancing business is a constant juggling act. Property lawyers handle numerous cases simultaneously, and even with automation, their mental bandwidth is stretched. The industry expects high output while suppressing fees, leading to burnout and an exodus of experienced lawyers. Firms that aggressively undercut pricing contribute to these pressures and degrade service quality. Without industry‑wide pricing reform and alignment, conveyancers will continue to leave faster than new recruits enter. 

At Eden, balancing caseloads has been an evolving process. An internal allocation algorithm considers lawyer experience, case complexity, and existing volume to distribute work appropriately. Crucially, lawyers can override this system by signalling when they are at or below capacity. Client satisfaction surveys then validate whether workloads are affecting service quality.

Looking ahead, Bruce hopes the recent government consultation will drive digital standardisation, mandating common data formats, practices, and ultimately a fully digital conveyancing workflow. Incremental change, not a big‑bang overhaul, is key. He predicts more consolidation in the sector; firms unprepared for digitisation may exit the market. Eden, meanwhile, intends to scale, focusing especially on transforming the first‑time buyer experience and creating a rewarding working environment to attract and retain conveyancers. 

The Today's Conveyancer podcast can be found on your preferred podcast provider and also at www.todaysconveyancer.co.uk. Subscribe and listen in for all the latest conveyancing industry news and views. 

Thank you to our podcast sponsors LEAP Legal Software, Moneypenny and Compass.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:23

You're listening to the Today's Conveyancer Podcast, the leading source of information for residential property lawyers in England and Wales. Don't forget to subscribe and sign up to our free newsletter at today'sconveyancer.co.uk. You can also follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Hello, welcome along to the latest Today's Conveyancer podcast. Today we are talking all about property law, but there are no property lawyers on the discussion. Today we have Bruce Griffin, who's the founder and CEO of Eden Conveyancing, not a lawyer. And myself also not a lawyer. Great to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

I always like to start out with getting a feel for somebody. And we we make a joke about the fact that you you're a non-lawyer running a law firm, but uh there must be a story behind that. Tell us in the first instance who you are and uh a bit about your background as well, Bruce.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, so I started my journey about 25 years ago. I've I work in the tech industry, have worked in the tech industry for a long time, right from uni. I set up my first business, and over the last 25 years, I've predominantly been working with large corporates to help them use property data to create better experiences for their clients and also for their employees. But never never been a property lawyer, never kind of interested in becoming a lawyer either. But about seven years ago now, I did a property transaction. I bought bought a property and it didn't go that well, got to be honest. There were many bumps along the road in terms of understanding the process. I hadn't done many property transactions before that. So I was I was naive, I didn't really understand what was involved, and it was kind of riddled with kind of surprises, not pleasant ones, unfortunately, along the way. But managed to get through it, I kind of gritted my teeth and and kind of just uh got through the process. But coming from a background of working with property data, I was surprised that a number of the elements of the property transaction process weren't slicker or smoother. But I kind of just accepted it and kind of got on with it. And then in 2020, I bought a second property, completely different. So the first one was residential, the second one was a commercial building, and it the the transaction had all the same kind of problems. For me, the frustrations were around uncertainty. I didn't really understand or know what was going on. It was very difficult to speak to the right people. And so I thought to myself that there must be a way to improve this process for consumers, for clients at the end of end of the journey. So that was my motivation to get into the conveyancing industry. But definitely not a lawyer, so lots of learning and lots of good people that I've had around me that's really helped with the process.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Go back to your background property data and expand on that. What kind of data were you working with and how were you using it to enable these uh improved customer journeys that you were talking about?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Essentially what we do is property data inherently is pretty awful.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

It's we're finding that now, aren't we, with this uh sort of drive towards greater upfront information, material information, however you want to describe it. We're finding it's very difficult actually to one, identify what that is, it's so subjective, but two, then get it into a kind of codified uh state so that we can share it.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah, and everyone's got their own opinion as well about what that codified state should be. You know, there isn't consensus yet across the whole industry because everyone's got their own kind of perspective, their own bias. And and that that's been the case for a long time with property information. So, you know, we started working with large corporates to help them understand the structure of buildings, how high they were, how many units were in those buildings, what facilities were available in those buildings, and then we moved on to using external information like energy information, planning information to get a better feel for the potential of a building or the value of a building. And that whole process was riddled with kind of inconsistencies. And so a lot of the work that we did was about trying to get the best of best outcome possible with kind of the data that was available. So it's it's it's a real challenge that underpins the industry. So working with property information is difficult, you know, it's fundamentally kind of flawed or inconsistent, even address data itself in the UK. There there isn't consistency even around kind of unique identifiers for address information, certainly in in blocks or flats or multiple dwelling units. And so, yeah, we were we had to work pretty hard with organizations to get the best outcome we could with the data available. And I think that's that's definitely one of the challenges that faces the conveyancing industry.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Oh, massively, and you know, no arguments here. Most people though, Bruce, would just kind of shrug it off and go, do you know what, had a bad experience, I won't bother moving again. And we're seeing that you know in in terms of the length of time that people now stay in homes. It was seven years, 15, 20 years ago, you know, average length of time that people stay in their homes now is around 20 years. Most people though don't think to themselves, do you know what? I'm gonna try and solve this myself and set up a conveyancing firm.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, well, I've been always a glut for punishment, I think. So the driver for me comes from believing that that process of buying a home is such a special moment. You know, it's it's one of those big life moments. And I think if we can make that experience smoother, easier, fundamentally more enjoyable. I know that kind of seems a bit of a stretch sometimes when we hear about all the kind of stressful frustrations, but I believe it should be an enjoyable process, especially for first-time buyers. You know, this is one of those kind of becoming an adult moments when you buy your first home. And anything we can do to make that exciting and enjoyable is is can only be a good thing. And I think it can, it definitely can be done. I'm a I'm definitely an optimist, and I believe that you know, the the way that the industry or the potential there is for the industry to improve is is definitely there. You know, we've got some amazing property lawyers in the industry that work incredibly hard to deliver a great experience, and I think probably sometimes they feel as though they're pushing water uphill because they don't have the tools or they don't have the time or they don't have the opportunity to deliver the kind of service and experience that they want. And so I think it's it's about putting enablers in place for those things so that these, you know, highly qualified professionals can deliver the experience they want to clients. So I think there's a massive opportunity for transformation and improvement, and that's what got me excited, and that's what we're passionate about, is creating a great experience for clients, but also creating an environment for property lawyers where they can thrive, where they can deliver the type of work to clients that they want to.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Uncertainty is inherent in the transaction, unfortunately. You've described uh how you see a lot of professionals uh straight jacketed or don't have the tools to go and deliver what they want to do. What do you see then as the blockers to going and delivering the best work of your career?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

I would start with the amount of time that property lawyers have. I think that there has to be a level of realism about the volume of work an individual can do and the quality at which that work can be delivered. You know, we were, I was talking with my senior leadership team recently, we were talking about kind of the cognitive load that any one property lawyer can have, even with all the automations and efficiency in the world. There's a cognitive load where, you know, there's only so many cases and clients that you can kind of keep in your head at any one time. And so I think that is a constraint that balances with the amount of money that you charge for conveyancing. Unfortunately, within an industry, there are firms that are driving down price and commoditizing the service, which ultimately leads to poor quality because property lawyers don't have the amount of time to invest in those relationships with clients and provide the service that we want. So I think probably that that's that's definitely sits at kind of one aspect of the problem. The the other aspect is the volume of property lawyers that are leaving the industry. It's a it's a really, really big problem. And so, you know, we have to start introducing technology in a way that can make their life easier, where we can reduce the stress and pressure on property lawyers so that they don't look for other professions or other kind of areas of law that they want to work in. So I think you know, those two things are key. And then to enable that technology, there needs to be the industry needs to come together, and we've got to have better alignment between all the different parties involved because fundamentally it's a collaboration. And this is probably one of the things that I didn't appreciate enough when I started the business kind of three or four years ago, is that I thought very naively we could come in, create a great experience, and nothing could touch that. But actually, we're at the mercy, every firm is at the mercy of who's on the other side of the transaction, and there are a number of other parties involved in the process. So it's an industry problem that we need to solve, not a kind of firm kind of problem that can be solved, I think. So that was a big learning for me when uh, you know, over the first couple of years, the level of constraint that other parts of the transaction that are outside your control have.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

And is this a is this a is it a technology problem? Is it is it a communication problem? I suspect the answer is probably somewhere in the middle, but what's your view?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

I I think it for me, it starts with technology. My belief is that technology should be an enabler. It's not the kind of holy grail or the kind of silver bullet that's going to solve all the problems. What it is is an enabler for different people within a process to be able to do a better job. So I think if we start with providing technology that enables property lawyers to be more efficient and more effective so that they can focus their time on the things that only they can do, that is going to unlock the communication problem because they have more time to then invest with the client on explaining things to them and answering questions and making sure that we support a client all the way through the process. Likewise, technology should be an enabler for clients, it should help them understand the process. A lot of certainly first-time buyers, where you know, where we do a lot of work, first-time buyers don't understand the processes at all. You know, there's no, there's not great education resources out there about how conveyancing works or what its role in the process of buying a property is. And so part of our responsibility as conveyances, and certainly at easy, that means that first-time buyers can educate themselves, and and technology is the best way to do that. You know, first-time buyers that demographic, they they look to technology first and foremost to do their research, to do their reviews, to get comments from their peers. And so we have to use technology to to enable that generation to understand the process and feel in control of it.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

I want to come back to the point you make about the volume of work, and we sort of glossed over pricing because you're absolutely right. This as a as a sector, we don't charge enough, there's no two ways to be worried about it. And as you say, it has an impact on businesses like yours that are are trying to effect change. How have you struck that balance in your own organisation? You know, I mean, can you share information, for example, about the caseload for for SAT or how you how you've intertwined technology into that process?

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Yeah, I mean, it is really, really difficult. And we've struggled over the last kind of three or four years to find the right balance with it. You know, we find that the pendulum swings, you kind of swing it one way and then the next. But I think that for me, it's about getting to a place where property lawyers can feed back into the process. That's been the biggest kind of win that we've had, is rather than dictate you will take more cases or you should take more cases or no, you can't have any more work, is building an environment where property lawyers feel safe enough to say, I've got too much work, and here are the impacts of that. So I think that that kind of feedback loop with your team is incredibly important, and and we've used that to then refine the process of how cases are allocated. So we have our platform has an algorithm in it that allocates cases out, and that's allocated based on the quantity of cases that that a property lawyer currently has. It also uses complexity of those cases to understand. You know, 60 freehold sales is very different than 60 leasehold new build purchases. So the complexity of the work involved is also really important. So we have an algorithm that kind of takes those things into account along with the experience level of the property lawyer. But we also then try and give our property lawyers almost like this overflow valve that they can turn on and off, where they can say, actually, I've got some capacity to take some more work, or no, I don't right now, because of maybe you know, someone having a lot of new cases coming in. There's a there's definitely a front loading of the work involved. So it's a highly complex problem that you can't just say 60 cases is the right number or 50 cases is the right number. What I do think though is we recently tried to get away from kind of having set kind of quotas and get to a place where there's definitely more flexibility for property lawyers to input into that process. We've got to balance that though with with commercials, you know, and there is a reality to things, which are you know, if you if you're not generating the right level of revenue from the work you're doing, then you're not sustainable as a business. And so there's no point, in my view, creating, you know, this utopia environment for employees that's not financially sustainable. And so we've had to balance that with what the legal fees are that we're charging. And you know, one of the things we've done recently is make sure that we equip property lawyers to know when there's additional services that clients need, that clients are asking for, and that we charge appropriately when clients need those additional services. But it's also about getting our price pricing to a level that is that allows us to deliver a great service. What we don't want to do is not give the property lawyers time to deliver that five-star service that kind of is our aim and that sits at the heart of what we do. And actually, we found we had this over the summer where we swung the pendulum too much one way where there was too much work, and that eroded the client experience. And we saw that directly in our satisfaction survey. So we do a satisfaction survey with every single client, and we saw our numbers drop. And that also was kind of the indicator or the trigger for us to go, hold on, this this is not, we're no longer delivering the promise that we kind of set out to deliver. So I think there's that feedback loop from property lawyers, but also there's a feedback loop through satisfaction surveys that tells us when the service is being eroded because of the volume. But we we are competing with firms that are charging half of what we charge, which it I find it incredible that they can deliver a service at that price point. And so it is a it is a problem for the industry. And I think again, the industry has to lift the pricing to a point where we can reinvest in property lawyers coming into the industry because we've got our property lawyers leaving the industry that have been here, experienced property lawyers for a you know, that have been in the industry for a long time are leaving, but we're not drawing in and attracting new property lawyers in because the environment isn't there, the salaries aren't there. And so I think that you know this is an industry problem that has to be solved.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

You mean you you talk about winning business against competitors that are charging half of your fees. How are you doing that? You've I sense you've you've engaged with things like review platforms and making sure that your online presence is solid. I mean, you you talked about educating clients as well, and and I mean, how's how how does that manifest?

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah, we have a help and resource section, which definitely kind of helps educate clients. I think the bit where we rely on most is is definitely referrals. You know, we we believe that by investing in a great client experience that's going to pay back over time. So a large proportion of our work comes directly from clients referring clients or from referrals from our referral partner program. So we work with a number of really great estate agents and mortgage brokers that probably accept that a slightly higher price is better than having transactions where you've got clients frustrated or transactions falling through because they're taking so long. So I think you know, for us it's about finding partnerships that really appreciate that kind of level of service, but also working so that the service that we deliver is something that people rave about. And I think you know, for people to write reviews, it has to be an amazing experience. It can't just be good, it probably can't even be great. It has to be absolutely amazing, and that that's the kind of standard that we try and set across the board for all of our property lawyers because that level of kind of experience that gets delivered is is what then clients kind of can't help but tell other people about. And that's at the heart of kind of how we're growing and why we've we've grown in the way that we have over the last couple of years.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

You you talked about the way in which you triage cases and allocate them for algorithm. I thought you were gonna say AI, but we we we're gonna we might even get through this whole conversation without it.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

I don't think we yeah, I don't think we will. So look, AI is absolutely fundamental. There's no two ways about it. It's an interesting topic of conversation internally because I'm trying to build an environment where we put AI into the right position within the organization. So I think there's a level of fear that AI is a successor to property lawyers or a successor to humans. And I don't I don't believe it is. I also, however, don't believe that it is a service that you should just delegate tasks to. The positioning that we're really working on at the moment within the company is to see AI as a coworker and to appreciate that with any co-worker, when you have a new person coming to the organization, you need to provide the right training, you need to provide the right documentation for them to learn from, you need to provide the right oversight and quality control and what they're doing. And I think that that is how we see AI within the organization. We're working hard, as I'm sure many other firms are, to leverage the opportunity that it provides. You know, we we do a huge amount of our work is either reading, analysing, processing, or creating documents. And like with any kind of work distribution, making sure that we've got the right kind of checks and balances. So at the moment, we haven't yet moved to a place where we are trusting AI to work autonomously without human review. So we are still at a stage where we believe that human review of AI's work is fundamental. We will get to a place probably within the next 12 months where there is a high enough accuracy and confidence level in in the work of the AI agents that we can let them do certain jobs autonomously. But it is it is a fundamental. Any every firm now must be looking at it and and identifying how it can contribute to the efficiency that that every firm needs to be delivering the right service at the right price point and and freeing up employee time to do the things that matters most and the things that they can do that AI can't do.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

I've said it on this podcast before and I'll say it again. I I think I'm I'm reconciled with the fact that AI is not going to take my job. Uh, but what I do realize is that the person who harnesses AI better than me will take my job.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

I think that's absolutely spawned. And I think, you know, I I believe it's the responsibility of the organization and our responsibility to equip all of our people with the the skills, the experience, the comfort level to work alongside AI and also to create an environment where that is a norm, it's not scary, it's not something they should be fearful of. We should be giving them the confidence in the things that only they can do and also the things that they want to do. You know, a big part of the dialogue that we're having is not just what can AI do, but what as employees do you want to do? You know, what are the things, what are the parts of the job that you really enjoy? And because you know, ultimately we're we're not here to create a machine, we're here to create a great experience for our clients, but also a great work environment for our employees. And so part of the decision making is around what aspects of the role give most fulfillment to property lawyers and most benefit to clients. And I think they're the aspects that that dictate then where we get AI involved.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

We're fast moving towards the end of the time we have for the discussion. And I I guess really I just want to close on what you you see potentially the future looks like. We've got we've just had the government consultation. Uh it may very well be by the time this is published. We might have some response, I don't know. But uh what in your view do you uh see that the consultation uh may report on? What are you hoping it's going to come back with that will manifestly change or improve the way that that you can run your conveyancing practice?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah, so I I was incredibly excited about the consultation. I think you know part of the driver for our business is an expectation that there is going to be a level of alignment within the industry and a level of mandating of how conveyancing firms need to work and really importantly how the digital conveyancing process is going to run. You know, that moving to a digital conveyancing process is something that has to happen. It has to happen for the industry to be effective, it has to happen for clients to have a better experience. So I believe that the the key outcomes of the the reform or the things that I'm happy for at least will be a kind of mandated standardization. I am less worried about what that standard standardization is rather than you know it being mandated. If it's not quite what I would want, that's fine. As long as we get to a point of alignment where everyone is working from the same kind of hymn sheet, that that that's a real fundamental for me. I think there are other things that have more practical barriers. So upfront information is a great thing in my view. It would be great to see that happen, but it is harder to achieve. And I think, you know, what I would hope for is that when they look at the outcomes of the consultation, the forms that we put in place, they look at it as an iterative journey. I think a big bang approach on any one of these things or all of them in conjunction will not be effective. And again, this is one of the things that I've learned a lot over the last three or four years is change within the convincing industry has to be a journey. It has to be lots of little steps, but there's got to be a strong drive for each of those little steps to happen. I think the nature of the industry is to resist change, and therefore I think there does need to be a level of mandate on the industry to drive that change forward. And we're seeing some of that. You know, we've got a great regulator, we're seeing the land registry kind of require change towards digitization and digital conveyancing. I hope the government don't do too many more U-turns in terms of the things that they're bringing in place. So, yeah, we've got to we've got to see some outcomes. There's been lots of committees that all do great things, but next step has to be some action. But what I want to see over the next two years is a level of standardization in the industry where everyone is working to the same kind of digital standards, that everyone is moving towards a digital conveyancing process. And I know for some that will be really difficult. There are firms out there, traditional firms, that don't want to change. And that may mean that, you know, some multidisciplinary law firms that do a bit of conveyancing stop doing conveyancing. It may mean that, you know, traditional high street firms find it more difficult to operate in the way they do at the moment. But I believe it's necessary for these, for the evolution of the industry to take place so that we can deliver a better experience to clients. Because ultimately, that's that's what we're here for. It isn't about kind of what we want to get out of it. We want to deliver an amazing client experience. That is why we started the business in the first place. And it is harder to do that now than it should be. And so these reforms have to make it easier for the client experience to get better.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

It's interesting to hear you say that you're gearing the business up in such a way that you're preparing for digitization. Whether all firms are doing that, I don't know. I I came into the sector 15, 20 years ago, there were seven and a half, eight thousand conveyancing firms, albeit with a long tail. I think the latest stats are somewhere around three and a half thousand conveyancing firms. So the market has contracted massively. And my suspicion is it will continue to do so if firms aren't prepared for what's coming around the corner. Uh but just coming on to Eden and my final question, Bruce, you'll be pleased to hear. What's the future for the firm and and for you as well?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Our future is very much around growth. We believe that the industry is going to continue contracting, as you as you say. And the reason for growth for us is because there is a we believe there's a critical mass that you've got to get to as a firm to be able to influence change to the level that we want to influence change. You know, we we definitely believe that the type of experience that we want to provide, everyone should have access to that. But we are especially passionate about first-time buyers. So that's an area where we believe that we can make the biggest impact. We we love the idea of creating an amazing first buying home experience for first-time buyers. So we're putting a lot of time and energy into that in terms of creating content, in terms of reaching that generation. So that's a big, big part of our future. The other key aspect for growth, though, is our property lawyer team. We know that we have to, it's our responsibility to create an environment where property lawyers love what they do, enjoy coming to work every day, and that's a continual challenge that we will kind of step up to. But if we don't create that environment that property lawyers want to be part of, both those that are in the industry and new property lawyers coming into the industry, then we're we're not getting the industry ready for the future and and you know, we're not going to be able to grow in the way that we want to. So building an environment for our team that is a great place to work, as well as continue to grow the clients that we can deliver a great experience for, especially first-time buyers, that's at the heart of what we're focused on.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

We obviously wish you all the very best with that. Uh, Bruce, thank you very much indeed for joining the podcast and for sharing a bit about your unorthodox story. Thanks, David. The Today's Conveyancer podcast is available on your preferred podcast provider. It's also available on today'sconveyancer.co dot uk. My thanks to Bruce. Thank you as ever for listening and we'll see you again soon.