Tax adviser status; what do conveyancers need to know?

What do conveyancers need to know about the pending requirements for those "interacting" with HMRC to register as tax advisers. 

To take a deep dive into the issue the Today's Conveyancer Podcast welcomes Ian Quayle, CEO of IQ Legal Training, and Ryan Hannah, Managing Director of Compass. With the registration window opening imminently and clarity still frustratingly thin on the ground what do we know, and more importantly, what are we still waiting for. 

There is a risk, says Quayle, registering as a tax adviser risks creating a dangerous mismatch between what conveyancers are and what clients may now assume them to be. The potential for negligence claims, client confusion and professional overreach looms large.

There is also an issue here around fairness; every taxpayer, says Hannah, deserves accurate, consistent application of the law, and the current system leaves too much to chance. He highlights the routine, everyday transactions - not necessarily the sprawling country piles - as the real breeding ground for costly mistakes.

The podcast explores unanswered questions around registration, the spectre of fines and suspensions, the inadequacy of existing guidance, the implications of outsourcing, and the uncomfortable reality that conveyancers may soon be held to higher tax‑advice standards than ever before.

Is that such a bad thing? Does forcing registration on the sector set out to improve standards in this constantly thorny issue? Discuss...

The Today's Conveyancer podcast can be found on your preferred podcast provider and also at www.todaysconveyancer.co.uk. Subscribe and listen in for all the latest conveyancing industry news and views. 

Thank you to our podcast sponsors LEAP Legal Software

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:33

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SPEAKER_03 0:46

Hello, welcome along to the latest Today's Conveyancer podcast. Today we are talking about stamp duty and the requirement for conveyances to register as tax advisors. The deadline for registration is imminent, and I'm delighted to say I've got two experts on the subject on the podcast with me today, Ian Quayle, CEO of IQ Legal Training, and Ryan Hanna, Managing Director of Compass. I'm going to give you both the opportunity to tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, but this is a pressing issue for conveyancers. Today's conveyancer has recently run a bit of a straw poll on social media around how firms feel about the requirements, how prepared they feel. And it's blindingly obvious that uh firms feel very unprepared and that the guidance that has so far been produced is probably fair to say reasonably unhelpful. So hopefully, with the help of my two guests, we can unpick some of that. Ian, you've been on the podcast before, but if you wouldn't mind very quickly giving us a bit of an overview of yourself and your role, please.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Happy to do that, David. Uh hello everyone. Thanks for coming along today. Yes, my name is Ian Quayle, work with IQ Legal Training. I am the chief executive, whatever that means. And I spend my life going up and down the countryside, boring people to death, talking about things such as land registration, avoiding negligence claims, best practice in residential conveyancing sector, commercial property work, etc. So, as far as SDLT is concerned, I do a bit of training with regard to SDLT, try and joke residential conveyancers with what they need to know. I also look at what is best practice, and I'm very interested in how residential conveyances can avoid negligence claims and client complaints. The point, David, that I think would be my starting point today, is that I always work on the principle that residential conveyances are, in essence, generally practitioners. And therefore, unless they hold themselves out as experts in a particular field, all they're required to do is to give basic advice and to identify risk and issues. So, with regard to the SDLT issue that we're addressing today with Ryan, my starting point is that as a residential conveyancer, you're required to have some knowledge of SDLT. You are required to be able to submit an SDLT return and to pay the appropriate SDLT as and when it falls due. I'd be very, very reluctant to recommend to residential conveyancers that they describe themselves as tax experts or tax advisers. And therefore, I come at this from a position of horror in that I worry that if you are a generalist, which I think what residential conveyances are, that there is an inherent danger in suggesting to a client that you are an expert or a specialist in a particular field. And therefore, if you do register yourself as a tax advisor to the lay client, there's a risk that the lay client then thinks, well, you are a specialist on in connection with SDLT on the basis that you're a tax advisor. I also worry that the lay client also thinks, well, if you're a tax advisor, you should also be telling me about capital gains tax. You should be telling me about sort of what I would class as peripheral taxes associated with the conveyancing process. So I'm unhappy with this from a training perspective. I'm also unhappy with this because my trial trials and visits up and down the countryside, everyone I talk to is concerned about this. And I'm really interested and delighted that we've got Ryan along today from Compass, because my view is that Compass provides a solution to what I see as a really difficult issue. But David, that's enough of me. But hopefully that puts my position and explains a little bit about what I do as well.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Yeah, thank you. What if if there's an endorsement there, then I don't know whether there's a better one, Ryan. But uh you've you've got a solution, but I mean, look, this isn't a sales pitch. The the point here is to really try and understand what the opportunity is for conveyances. In the first instance, so in the same vein, perhaps you wouldn't mind telling us a bit about yourself as well and how you've got to where you are.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

Yeah, my name's Ryan Hannah. I unfortunately, fortunately, have spent most of my youth growing up with a father who was saying involved in this tax. It's no real state secret that he was involved in some of the dark side of this stuff. My form of teenage rebellion was actually going, I don't like this. I want to go in the other direction. So I founded a company, and I know this is a podcast about conveyances, but got to be honest, my soapbox is always from the taxpayers' perspective more than the conveyances. And that's where I came from. So yes, I have a product and I have a solution that does technically solve the risk element of SDRT calculations, but my belief in all of this is that every taxpayer in the country exists under the same uh piece of law. We should all have it applied to us equally regardless of financial privilege and circumstance. Solving that is obviously a slightly more complex question, but yeah, that's uh that's me.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

So uh to get into the nitty-gritty of what uh this registration is in the first instance. I mean, uh Ryan, have you got a bit of a handle on what HMRC are trying to achieve or seem to be trying to achieve with this registration?

SPEAKER_04 6:26

Yeah, I I mean I thought I did, and then they decided to double down on this payment point. So I thought it was quite clear that I have been saying that this isn't for me a change. This for me is a confirmation of a state of affairs that's always existed between a client and a conveyancer. Now, I take Ian's point completely that, and I agree, the more we actually get conveyancers to register as tax advisors, the higher the risk is that a purchaser is going to think there's a higher competency there or a higher level of capability than there actually should be. And again, that's a separate conversation about whether there should be or not. But I actually make the argument that that expectation has always existed, and this is where we have the problem. You have a purchaser coming through to a conveyancer who should be doing conveyancing, and yet you have this little dark area of tax advice, and it is tax advice because you are making decisions that ultimately end up in a client paying tax. There's been met lots of conversation about disclaimers at the end of a client engagement and blah, blah, blah. But look, really the brass tax is if you are and conveners were handing out a document and a questionnaire, having a client filling it in and then saying this is how much tax you need to pay, it's tax device, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Yeah, yeah, I think that's fair comment.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

And Ian, we have some guidance now, don't we? Although we're waiting for sector-specific guidance. But what I mean at the moment, what does that guidance effectively tell us?

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Let's take a step back, David, and have a look at what a con what a conveyancer should do, right? So I'm looking at this from the professional obligation of a conveyancer or solicitor. They are required to undertake work and provide advice as any reasonably competent sister or conveyancer would do, and that would involve them in identifying the potential for SDLT liability, looking at the relevant reliefs and surcharges that are applicable to the client's circumstances, applying those reliefs and surcharges, calculating SDLT, formulating the returns, submitting the return, and paying the tax as required. So that's from if we're looking at it purely and simply from a solicitor or conveyancers' perspective, that's what they're required to do. As far as the requirement for registration is concerned, that doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on the professional obligations that the lawyer owes to the client, but it does have implications and obligations with regards to compliance issues and the HMRC and solicited lawyer relationship. And I mean, as far as that's concerned, it's clear-cut if HMRC say you've got a register, then you've got a register. Simple as that. Now, again, Ryan will probably be in a better position than me, but at the moment I'm getting all sorts of mixed messages from law society and other professional bodies and from HMRC themselves. And I've got a sort of spectrum of positions to think about. At one end of the spectrum, every Fierna that undertakes conveyancing work is required to register. And if you submit your return, if you're providing advice, or if you simply pay SDLT, you're giving tax advice. So that's at what one end of the spectrum. At the other end of the spectrum is a situation where the lawyer is doing all of those things and again is giving advice. And I would agree with Ryan, no matter what you think, and no matter what you do, if you're complying with your professional obligations to the client, you are giving tax advice. So there's no doubt. So I've I've got this sort of binary position of registration or not registration, not registering as an individual. Okay. I've then got the situation where, and I've had messages to this effect, perhaps only one partner in a firm has to register as a tax advisor, and everyone else can work within that umbrella. And again, I'm not so sure about that. And I'm not so sure about, you know, is it the head of department? Is it the sort of specialist that uh that that deals with that registration? I'm not sure about that. Again, I get various messages from whoever I talk to. So, to be very unhelpful, David, I currently couldn't tell you what you're required to do. But I look at it and think, worst case scenario, any firm who's undertaking conveying work must register. Best case scenario, perhaps one person within the firm has to register. I don't see how HMRC is going to back off and say this is a bad idea, just forget it. I think that what we've got at the moment is confusion. Every day I wake up and think we're gonna get some clarity. I ain't seen it yet. I don't know whether you have, Ryan, but my view is that we're stuck as meantime, the day is looming larger for the profession, and you know, we don't have clarity.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

Yeah. I mean, on the back of that, it's uh I have heard through the grapevine, I can't state the source, but the next big meeting with HMRC is around the 4th, 5th of June, I believe I've been told, which is obviously post-the-registration open date. So there's going to be naturally an increasing level of anxiety around what you need to do, especially if we get past that open date without clarity, and especially if we don't get clarity on this payment point. The c the conversation I keep having though is trying to split this into two parts because the part of register or not is one thing. And then as David asked earlier, the the the question of why H1C are even doing this in the first place is another. And then actually there's a third conversation of just what parts do we need to pay attention to and what is the net effect. I mean, as it stands, every every conveyance with the country is going to have to register. That's as it stands. And as they stated in the latest meeting, they regard payment as communication under LIM D, I believe it is, of the guidance. So I mean, on that, we're just basically dead. Like that will force a registration. But let's assume you do have to register. Just because you've done a administrative task of registration and you have identified your key personnel, does that automatically mean that we should be doing tax advice in the company? That's kind of where the blurred lines are for me right now. And it seems to be all or nothing. When there was the conversation around whether like services like mine meant you didn't have to register, immediately everyone was going, Oh yeah, great, we'll outsource everything and you do everything, we do all the returns, cool, we don't need to register. But then as soon as it's having to do the administrative task, it's when we're now going to go back to doing all of the tax advice. I don't really understand why those things seem to be intrinsically linked.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

But here's the conundrum because I mean to the tax advice point, there are sort of stages of tax advice, if that's the best way to describe it. Because and and this is you know part of the sales pitch for a number of these outsourced service providers, is there's a reasonably sort of basic SDLT submission that you might make your two up to down town centre dwelling. Uh and then there is your sort of uh mixed use field, paddock, whatever it might be. I see you raising your eyebrows, Ryan, because you're going to come back to me on that one, I know. But there are, you know, this is a grey area already, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 13:49

Exactly. I mean, that's that's literally why I invented my process versus a lot of these other ones that use screening systems, because whether I'm right or wrong remains to be seen. But I fully and wholly believe that if you've made the decision not to look into something because you are looking at a property and making a tax determination, i.e., it's a simple two up two down, as you said, you've just made a tax determination before looking into all the facts. You've gone to the conclusion in order to justify doing the process. So that's the whole thing I've heard in covers for years. Is we'll use it on the complicated ones. I go, that's the whole point of why I made this, is so that you don't make a mistake on the routine. Most of the mistakes I find are around HRAT, uh, the higher rate for additional dwellings. Most of the mistakes I see are around timing of the sale of your primary residence. Most of the mistakes are on, oh, you know, I've got that timeshare over here and I own, you know, two or a thousand pounds worth of it. You see, and I I've I had one the other week with the first time I was literally arguing with my staff over the phone because yeah, they inherited the property from their father when he passed away when he was 16, but he sold it then. He's not owned anything for 20 years. He's a first-time buyer. No, wrong. Like it's just not the way it works. So literally, I take the absolute opposite. The routine is where the problems lie. And this is why I say I'm an advocate for the taxpayer more than the conveyancer. Sorry for this podcast, because it's the people, the husband and wife, that, yeah, the tax might swing by a grand. For them, that's a lot of money. But to those of us, or you know, the the usual people that go out for tax advisors, it's nothing. But those people and their thousand pounds, they don't deserve to lose that to the government just as much as someone about to lose a million. It doesn't matter. The law should apply equally. And you have to, therefore, apply the same strict process to everyone, regardless. You can't just make the determination at the outset.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah, we've got yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

This feels like another one of those. I was gonna say, you know, let's use the example of climate changes that the straw that kind of broke the camel's back with conveyances. But this feels like another one of those, it's it's another thing that lands on the conveyances desk. We have to be experts now in tax advice, otherwise it's we're gonna come unstuck in.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah, well, I mean, again, I I look at this from a political angle and say the government, and it's sort of mirroring what Ryan's saying, is all for the consumer, all for the the client that's using legal services, and what can they do to improve and assist their position? And therefore, perhaps this idea of registration, this idea of making SDLT at the forefront of conveyances thinking in the in the current environment, perhaps you know that's a good thing. And perhaps again, as Ryan was saying, it's going to mean people you know will be saving on SDLT liability and people will be more willing to look to try and make sure that the client's position is protected. Perhaps it's all of that. The thing that amazes me is that the professional bodies who should have been all over this in one of two ways, either saying the firms, you need loads of training on SDLT because this is coming down the track at you, or to say the government, look, we're not ready for this, we need clarity. If if we are gonna be tax advisors, if you are asking us to up our game with regard to SDLT, we need time to do it. Uh, David, I'm reminded, I'm gonna go back and talk about common hold, right? Common hold in 2002 was thrown at us, and we were given sort of a year and a half, two years to get used to it, and therefore it was thrown at us, but it wasn't sort of an impending sort of nightmare scenario. The the lawyers, conveyancers, need time to adapt and to change, and government, professional bodies, and everyone else should be helping conveyancers rather than saying, there you are, you know, as of May, you you're now you've got to register as a tax advisor with all the potential problems that that that arises. Because I go back to the preliminary point that I made. If in my retainer I'm saying I'm going to be giving you general advice with regard to SDLT, but not specialist advice, as Ryan was saying, what on earth does that mean? Okay, but if I'm now registered as a tax advisor and I've told you I'm registered as a tax advisor, from a client's perspective, that's even more confusing. So I I you know, I'm a great believer in two things clarity, and I'm a great believer in if we're going to change things, giving pipe people time to change and adapt. Like David, you and I have spoken about the revised TA6, and you know, saying as of January, this is being launched in March. Oh well, we've got two or three months to uh get our act together. I can tell you, loads of firms now, even though we're beyond the deadline for the revival use of the revised TA6, still haven't got a clue about what it is or what it does. I get what the government is saying, I'm supportive of what Ryan is saying with regard to the fact that conveyancers are required to give advice and that the line as to where that advice ends, as it were, is blurred, blurred to oblivion. We've got that problem. We've got you know what it means, you know. I I fail to see how we just you know what difference does it make if I'm registered as a tax advisor or I don't register? You know, what what's the difference other than the perception that the client will have?

SPEAKER_04 19:28

There are, I mean, it's they're being quite subtle with it though, but it's it's they're making the conveniences adhere to higher standards that they didn't have to before. I mean, before we had the CQS wording on SDLT, right, which was quite vague, but it was basically keep an audit trail and a history. I think the wording was a history and the decisions taken upon reaching the calculation kind of thing, which is again vague, but it kind of helped. You then have, as you say, the problem of training. I mean, I know certain training providers, but how do you keep everyone up to date? But the the bit that worries me is that H1C's own rules on this. Yeah, bear in mind that they're putting fines in, so you're gonna be fine if you get this stuff wrong, and there's the whole process for suspension, which again it's like£5,000 for the first five fines or something like that, and it's 10,000. But the point is they're saying you now must maintain correct and up-to-date knowledge of the areas of tax that they deal with, work to prevent errors in the client's tax calculations or claims, and avoid including figures and returns or claims which were unsubstantiated or speculative, keep contemporary, you know, it's it's in it's endless.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, and and and Ryan, you've got you've got HMRC telling you things, and then you've got decisions of the courts and tribunals that are saying that's not right. Well, exactly. And you've got the and you've got the online calculator that you know I look at that and think, well, it it's wrong to call it an online calculator, it's a sort of put a finger in the air and saying that's that you know, HMRC saying that's what we think it could be.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

Well, they said that themselves when someone tried to say, Hey, up you published this calculation, they went, Oh no, that's you can't rely on that, that's just an estimate.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Right. Yeah. That's HMRC. But but to the rank and file conveyancer, they'll use that, and you know, you you've got to say you've got to say you have some sympathy that they use it, because you know, why would why have it?

SPEAKER_04 21:17

Yeah. That's why I mean I've putting my conveyancer sympathy hat on, which I do, it's absolutely insane. It just it just is insane.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

In and amongst the discussion there, uh you mentioned about the fact that there are fines and subsequent suspensions for non-compliance uh with with tax advice. I mean, presumably that would mean that you wouldn't be able to submit your SDLT, which in effect would what I mean, it would it would pause the transaction, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Yeah, it would cause massive disruption. And again, as far as I can tell, the penalty is£5,000 for any contravention. You get the notice that they haven't been quite clear on exactly how this would work, whether it's immediate, there was some news that H1 said, oh, we'll work with the contributing party to make sure it's resolved. So they're trying to kind of say there's not going to be an immediate suspension. The worrying part is that if there are any contraventions while they're suspended, then they can be banned from re registering for a year. That's death to any business if

unknown 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

You have to do any of these parts.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

And that's re-registration of the business or of the individual.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

I think it's the individual, but the problem is again, if you only have uh this the these are the things we need clarity on, and I'm not quite sure on that to be honest, but the bit that really worries me is there's an automatic rule under these under the registration that says you must notify all clients of your contravention.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

The point there, Ryan, is if if you're acting for the nationwide building society, that's you off the panel, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Yeah. The guidance so far seems to suggest that registration will be required by a relevant individual. The rules are not aimed at middle managers and rather are aimed at those who are responsible and have authority within a firm. So perhaps more aligned with what you were suggesting there, Ian, about money laundering reporting officers, pulps, coffers, those sorts of roles. Ryan, we also glossed over you talked about disclaimers and the fact that you know we we can do away with some of these responsibilities through some of our client care documentation. I mean, what in your view is the implication of registration for firms and how are they going to have to react in terms of some of their client comms to ensure that they are either telling them that we are not going to give this advice, tell them that we're going to give limited advice, or we're going to outsource this advice?

SPEAKER_04 23:49

I think the ultimate endpoint is actually going to be a positive, but it's going to be one of those sort of growth through pain moments for the industry where, as you say, every conveying firm is going to need to sort of look introspectively and go, okay, how are we handling SDLT and make sort of one of two or three decisions? They are either going to need to overhaul their internal processes to ensure there's nothing's missed, like I said, but do it internally. Get a tax for expert in that everything flows up to, maybe some process for screening that actually functions. And I mean, seriously, be careful with this, but that might be a route. Again, it's a positive because at the end of the day, it means that we are leveling up the quality of tax advice within the industry. If HMC are ultimately nearly mandating that the industry gives tax advice, let's do it properly, is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

Option two, like I say, even with the payment point, just focusing on the quality of tax advice, using a service like mine, again, sound shameless self-plug, but yeah, outsourcing it to someone that has a competent outsourcing process. Cool. The real worry I have on this is I did a bit of headcanon math on this, trying to figure out outside of my business, if you put every single competent tax advisor in the country currently in the same sweatshop and said, go do it do calculations, how many could you get through in a month? And I think it's less than 10,000, genuinely. There's an industry of what, 80 to 100,000 a month. So there's a deficit even in competency in this country for ensuring that everything is calculated properly. And that's a problem we need to solve as well. But yeah, ultimately, I do hope, because I'm the eternal optimist, that I mean we're being forced to do it, that we just level up the quality of SDLT service to purchase that.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

And to that point, Ryan, the capacity is clearly an issue. But I mean, Ian, as Ian said before, HMRC's rules are so varied and interchangeable at times that it's almost like the adage of you know, put 10 lawyers in a room and ask them the same question, you get 10 different answers. I mean, is it the same case that we're gonna put 10 tax advisors in a room and we're gonna get 10 different SDRT calculations?

SPEAKER_04 26:10

No. Hopefully. I mean, the the the real answer to that is yes, but it's not because of interpretation, and there is interpretation, but you want to always follow the courts on HMRC. So you're only but you're talking the top slice stuff at that point. In terms of the general everyday calculations, they can be a bit nuanced, they can be a bit complex. Leases, for example, are a minefield, but again, generally with enough time and actually working out, you'll you will all come to the same answer. Again, the problem is having people that have that time for one and the competency two to do that regularly without fail, not fall ill, not go on holiday, and actually push things through on time, ensuring as well then that the SDLT1s are drafted correctly in relation to the calculation you've just done. Big problem.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

And Ian, looking at it from the conveyances point of view, and you and I have talked about the the client care documentation in previous podcasts. This seems like a bit of a minefield, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Yeah, yeah, it well it is. Yeah. I mean, you know, in in what do you say in the retainer to your client? What what do you say in your report on title to the client? You know, I don't know. I'm protective of the conveyancer, so we've we've got to be as sort of as clear as we can as so that we limit our liability. But again, as far as far as that is concerned, you know, what what would a what would a reasonable conveyancer be required to do with regard to STLT? Actually, just as we speak, I'll have a look at the Slitors Conveyancing Handbook, the latest edition acting for the buyer, A14. So this is cut off the press, okay. Right. Well, first of all, the purchaser is responsible for the payment and submission of the self-assessment land transaction return. Okay, purchaser, the person acquiring the subject matter of the transaction, normally the buyer. Okay, as far as the role of the conveyancer is concerned, the conveyancer must give advice with regard to reliefs and surcharges, must ensure that the client submits the return as required by legislation and that the SDLT return is properly completed. The problem is, right, you can't exclude liability for errors that are made with regard to calculating SDLT. Okay, so I can't, as a solicitor or conveyancer, say, as part of the conveyancing process, I am not giving you any advice and not giving you any information with regard to your SDLT liability. I can't do that, right? In addition to that, I'm acting for a lender, and as far as a lender is concerned, I've got to be able to ensure that the transfer to my client and the mortgage deed on behalf of the lender are registered at the land registry, and I can't carry out that registration process without having first submitted a return and paid the appropriate STLT? So I have an issue with regard to both the lay client, my buyer client, and also my lender. I mean, this is again what's the the law site convincing handbook says. Right. Does the solicitor or convincer necessarily know enough about the buyer's affairs to be able to conduct correspondence with HMRC for SDLT purposes? Has the client made the necessary disclosures and have those disclosures been full and frank? Where the solicitor acts only for the lender, not for the buyer, decision must be made concerning the administration of submitting the return. There's all manner of issues with regard to this that's pretty scary stuff, to be honest with you, you know.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

There's something you said there as well about the buyer's affairs or knowing enough about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

So this is again, this is a uh not to get back on my soapbox, but this is a drum I like to bang a lot, where paper forms to screen risk and not actually having a conversation with the client or knowing you need to have a conversation, and when you have that conversation, what questions are you actually going to ask? Can you then reasonably say you actually looked into their affairs? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Well, yeah, the point there, Ryan, is you the it depends on the quality. A, you're right, the safest thing to do is sit down with the client, but the other point is your questionnaire then becomes such a bulky document, and you know, how do you know that the client is taking it's taking the questions seriously and providing you with the information? The other point I have, and again, Davey is an interesting one. Are we being paid enough to do the conveyancing work? Never mind the additional work that's required with regard to SDLT. And you know, can I charge a client 400 quid for giving a client SDLT advice? Should I be client charging the client 400 quid on top of my conveyancing fee for this? You know, the answer is no, unless it unless it's complex, and again, that begs the question: what is complex? I'm supposed to do this work with the SDLT as part and parcel of the conveyancing service.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

See, that's where I would advocate strongly, Ian, that it's probably the most important fundamental change we could actually ask the industry to make right now is you're not charging for complexity. You shouldn't be, and you should be charging for doing the SDLT if you're doing it yourself, you're doing it in-house. But charge for the time it takes to properly assess the situation and to do the submission, even two separate charges if you have to, because then that is a clear representation of the work involved, right? You're not charging because it got complex eventually, you're charging to, regardless, make sure you've looked into the affairs in full.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Comment we were always going to struggle to do stamp duty and uh registration, tax advisor registration justice in the course of a 25 to 30 minute podcast. We've given it a really good go. Before we move to a close, I mean, look, there is clearly an opportunity for firms to outsource uh some of this tax advice, but every understanding that I have around this is rather like AML, they're never going to be able to outsource their liability for this. It is still going to be uh, you know, on the shoulders of the conveyancer, isn't it, Ryan?

SPEAKER_04 32:38

Yeah. No, actually. All right, well, we use the word liability rather than registration responsibility. The the fundamental difference is that you cannot outsource the responsibility of registration if, as it stands, the payment does count as communication. You can outsource your liability because ultimately, liability in terms of calculation, especially with the way that we deal with things, there is no decision that the conveyancer has made as to whether to outsource that client or not. They haven't screened them at the outset and said, Oh, you look low-risk, so you don't need to go through to these guys. The process we use is they come through no matter what's going on, no matter even if it looks like there's a non-returnable transaction. We make that decision for them. So, in terms of liability, I like to think of it as have I made decisions? If they've made no decisions, there's no liability. So, yeah, really, and especially with the returns, we do everything end-to-end, there you can outsource SDFT liability entirely.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah, Ryan. So, what you're saying is if I choose Compass and I put everything through your right, in that situation, I'm absolved of liability. But if I'm if I'm selecting them and saying that's one for Ryan, that's one that I can deal with myself, then I say there is the potential for liability as far as the firm's concerned.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, we're on the same heme sheet on that one. Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

We've actually seen this, by the way, just anecdotally. One of our our concierge firms who do put everything through, a junior member of staff looked at something and went, Well, there's no SDRT return on this, so I don't need to put it through compass. They got a fine. The only matter that they didn't put through our system in 18 months, and they got a fine because they made a decision.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

We're moving to a close on the discussion now, and uh I I guess really it's it's just on you guys whether there's any sort of final points that you wanted to make about what the implications for conveyances may very well be.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

All I would say is I'd love to be in a position just to give practitioners a definitive answer, and I can't echo that.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

I I really wish that no matter which way it lands, we could actually get to get some real answers from the government now. And I think again, these practitioners that are now what 31 days away from a registration open date that don't know which way they're gonna have to turn. It's insane. It's an insane way to treat an entire profession, it's just absolutely irresponsible.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

No arguments here. Thank you very much indeed to you both for joining the podcast. Hopefully, we've shed a little bit of light on this, albeit we are waiting for further guidance. Uh, but in the meantime, uh, my thanks to Ian and also to Ryan for joining the podcast and for sharing your insight.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Cheers, David. Good to talk to you, Ryan. Thanks, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

Good to see you again, Ian. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

The Today's Conveyancer podcast is available on your preferred podcast provider. It's also available on today'sconveyancer.co.uk. My thanks to Ian and to Ryan. Thank you as ever for listening, and we'll see you again soon.