Surviving and thriving in a modern conveyancing practice

In a post on social media Marc Lansdell, founder of Evolve Law and the guest for this Today's Conveyancer Podcast, boldly stated his firm had put up conveyancing fees; and he had not seen any loss of work or negative impact on his business. 

Despite difficult market conditions Lansdell explains how the decision was reasonably straightforward once he understood his own data, and the potential impact any increase might have. By analysing conversion rates against fee levels, the firm identified a point where higher fees could generate greater profitability without materially affecting instruction volumes.. as a result average fees increased by c. £500 per matter, which more than offset the c. 2% reduction in conversion rates. 

But higher prices only work if you consistently deliver what you say you will. The practicalities of selling higher-priced conveyancing services include strong review profiles, trusted introducer relationships and consistency in service standards.

Data driven decision making is a key topic of discussion, acknowledging that when the business was small, some of the decisions might have been more based on gut and instinct. Now though nearly all major business decisions at Evolve Law are informed by detailed performance metrics. He adds he has harnessed AI to help with business intelligence and management insights, enabling faster and more informed decision-making. 

Evolve have also invested in a training academy for staff; adopting a "grown you own" approach at a time when recruitment is one of the biggest challenges facing conveyancers. The academy goes beyond legal training, combining technical conveyancing knowledge with customer service skills, business development awareness, wellbeing education, and an understanding of firm finances. The aim is to create well-rounded conveyancers who are equipped for the demands of modern legal practice. Lansdell argues that successful conveyancers need far more than legal expertise; they must be able to communicate effectively, manage workloads, understand clients, and maintain their own wellbeing. 

Refreshingly candid, Lansdell shares how he sees a  modern conveyancing firm can navigate market pressures while investing in growth, innovation and long-term sustainability.

The Today's Conveyancer podcast can be found on your preferred podcast provider and also at www.todaysconveyancer.co.uk. Subscribe and listen in for all the latest conveyancing industry news and views. 

Thank you to our podcast sponsors LEAP Legal Software and InfoTrack

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Hello, welcome along to the latest today's conveyance a podcast. Today I have managing director of Evolve Law, Mark Lansdell, on the podcast with me. And we're going to be talking about a social media post that Mark put up a little while ago all about raising prices and more generally about current market conditions and conveyancing. No doubt there's plenty to be getting our teeth into, Mark. Thanks so much for joining the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I always start the discussions with a little bit of an introduction into our guests. So your best place to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your role at Evolve, please, Mark.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

So I'm the managing director of Evolve Law. My role transitioned quite a lot over the years. So founded the business almost 10 years ago. And as you could expect at the time, so working on files, IT accounts, doing everything that was required to keep the business going. So that's transitioned quite a lot over the years. My role primarily at the moment sits around operations, compliance, and really looking at the technological advancements that are going on and looking at how we can create operational efficiency, maintain robust prices, and really just ensuring that the sort of business continues year on year.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I mean, what's your headcount now at the organisation?

SPEAKER_02 2:13

So we have 25 people in the business that's been fairly stable for the last couple of years. We've found really that we've been able to not increase our headcount as much as we probably need to as the growth sort of occurred, primarily because we look at operational efficiency and technology as part of that. Not to replace lawyers, but mainly around sort of admin stuff. We generally don't really recruit admin assistants into the business. The assistants that come in are typically on a sort of fast track to doing what we call blue work, and I'm sure we'll get into that later on, but it essentially it's sort of core fear and work that generates income for the business. So we don't really have anyone that's sort of doing data entry or allocating you know posts and that that sort of stuff. We we get them stuck in pretty early.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

And you over the sort of past six months or so, my understanding is you've created a whether you call it an academy or whether you call it a a kind of route, as you say, through the business to train people up. I mean, has that been well received and how does that work internally?

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Really well received. So to be honest with you, it was one of my visions when I started the business. I was really lucky when I trained, you know, many years ago, two decades ago, that I had excellent training. And you know, for me, I love to learn. I'm always reading, I'm always trying to progress, and not just you know, in conveyancing of the law, but also reading around the subject. You know, at the moment I'm doing a lot of reading on consumer behaviour, psychology of consumer behaviour, but also you know, try to get where possible sort of up to date on AI and where the market's going in that respect. So for me, learning's really important, and you know, it took us a few years to get the training academy launched for various reasons. You know, we've growing pretty fast and other things that we've got going on. So, yeah, launch that it's been really well received, really, really well received. And I think with the it's important to say with the training academy, we're not looking at just conveyancing and the law. Um, I think you know, to be a good conveyancer, you've got to have a good customer service skills, you've got to have a little bit of kind of BDM, understand the finances of the business, understand the finances of a file, well-being. So there are there are modules within that training academy on a sort of three-month rotation where we, you know, at the end of the sort of 18 to 24 months, those coming through the academy will be really good conveyancers. So, you know, excellent lawyers, but also just good conveyances as well, and fit for what the modern world looks like and what the future will look like. So they're really enjoying it. We mix up the sessions, we get external trainees in as well, and you know, part of that is the CLC qualification, which the guys have just started. So, our view is, you know, I think we all know in conveyancing that recruitment is hard, very, very hard at the moment. So, our view is let's grow our own, let's let's bring some conveyances through that fit the evolve model and and how we see conveyances within our business.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

I really like the idea that uh you know we we can train people the sort of black letter law stuff. Uh that that's you know, that's largely obviously what law school does if that's the route that people take or some of the other sort of qualifications that are out there. But uh, you know, I I firmly believe that there are some really critical soft skills in conveyancing that you know there's there's there's a lot of gaps in that training, and and to some extent, I don't think that universities and that kind of thing are particularly well suited to to training on those things, are they? So I mean I I applaud you looking at that in the business and and getting that into the training programme.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah, absolutely. I think you you're absolutely right. You know, there's there's some excellent lawyers out there who who you know probably wouldn't want to be a conveyancer, maybe fell into the role, but but really understand the the technicalities of the law, which is of course really, really important. But some of the best conveyancers that we've got in the business and and and also I've seen are those that have got fantastic customer service skills. You know, that they know how to look after their own well-being, they understand how to spin lots of plates, you know, it's getting harder as a conveyancer or to be a conveyancer. And I think you know, as a business, it's it's it's right that we teach those other skills as we go through that that academy. And I think it's fair to say that we we do that with the guys not on the academy as well, you know, particularly around well-being, you know. We we tend to find that the sort of juniors that come into the business have a greater understanding of their own well-being. I'm sort of slightly jealous, really, because I'm a bit of a workaholic still at work through lunches, which is not a recommendation. But you know, um as I say, not as I do. Well, yeah, absolutely. But we learn from them as well. We understand, you know, what what because I'm I'm still sort of new to this, I'm just listening and just understanding what it means to them and how we can build that into to the course that we're we're we're sort of still still building. But yeah, it's been it's been really well received, really successful so far. And our our plan is to extend that, you know. We we've took three internal candidates to start with, so we could trial it but also allow them to build the course with us. But we'll we'll we are looking in the future to to get external candidates in and sort of grow that as the business grows.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

I was at a conference recently, and one of the speakers was Yugov, the polling agency. And uh the presentation was all about Gen Z. And I mean, that's a whole other podcast, Mark. So we're not gonna sort of go down that route necessarily, but the kind of really interesting things that come out of that around some of their behaviors, particularly in relation to using things like the telephone and their correspondence techniques and and their ability to use email cogently and and you know, actually that that needing to be trained into them, you know, which is uh you know, probably bizarre to you and I, but you know, when they're used to sort of text speak, you know, it's not no real surprise, is it? Uh the the whole presentation was about the employee as as much as the client of tomorrow. And uh, as I say, you know, whole different podcast. But you know, the the things like your training academy need to be thinking about and accounting for you know the the this influx of new young talent who operate very differently from from you and I.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know that the important thing for us is to, like I said previously, to listen. You know, we we can sit there as you know 20 plus years in conveyancing and and still think that we know what's right. But but actually, you know, we can teach the conveyancing, we can teach the law, but but the other soft skills that sit around that, we've we've got an idea, but actually, as you say, it's not just the employees that come in the trained academy, it's the clients because actually, you know, we do have a generation of clients who are younger as well. So, how do they want to interact with us and actually understand their behaviors? And and that's you know clients range from sort of 18 right up to you know in their 70s, so it's understanding how we can shape the business to suit how we want to operate and offer that service, but equally how clients want to interact with us. So the the best thing to do is is listen, you know, just listen to to comments and some of it's negative, but you can learn from that. And that's really how we're shaping the academy, is just really being open to different ideas. And if we feel that a module needs changing then then we'll change it. Um, we'll sometimes very quickly change a session when we're doing the session because actually we'll get some really good feedback and it's really useful. So we'll use that feedback to then shape the the academy moving forward and always can sort of be dynamic in making sure that we're open to to new ideas and yeah, how people want to interact with us.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

I said at the start of the podcast that uh one of the primary drivers for us getting together and doing this podcast was a post that you'd put up on social media about the fact that you had taken uh what I would describe as a pretty bold decision to raise prices. You'd quite bullishly defended that. You've you've you know you've you've talked already about the fact that you've got healthy caseloads, that kind of thing. In the so talk me through some of that decision uh making. You've very consciously made the decision to put prices up within the business. That can't have been easy at a time when, you know, particularly at the moment, things are are quite challenging out there.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

I'm probably gonna answer that now if I say it was easy. It was easy. So we I'm obsessed with data.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Either that or you were cheap to start with, Mark.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Probably mid-market, I would say. So but cheaper than I would have liked. So I'm obsessed with data numbers to the extent where you know people say it should have been an accountant rather than a lawyer. Not sure whether that's you know, should have been the case or not, but but but equally, you know, it's it sort of drives what we do as a business. So I I got fed up. I got fed up with looking at the the bill at the end of the transaction and really looking at my team and thinking, this isn't enough. You know, you've worked your socks off. I can see you know the energy and the time that's gone into that file. And that bill, I mean it just isn't sufficient payment for what you've had to put into that transaction. So I had a bit of a wake-up call and thought, well, but you're good with data, good with numbers. Let's just come up with a simple Excel spreadsheet and let's look at how we can increase prices at £50 increments, and then let's look at the conversion rate. And there's a pinch point in there somewhere where actually, if your conversion rate from leads to instructions drops, but your prices are higher, you'll actually make more money. Yeah, so when you actually sit down and think about it, it is really easy and it just takes 30 minutes, and we were able to increase our prices by on average over we did it in increments, but about 500 quid per case. And our conversion rate probably only dropped 2%, but it sits sort of six percent above what our guess on a sort of breakeven margin would be, where we would might need to consider dropping our prices again. But it's quite a simple exercise, and it blows my mind that actually others aren't looking at it. You have to be bold with it, you have to be brave with it, but you have to understand your data, you have to uh know your data, but but also be aware of it, keep an eye on it, because if it doesn't drop below that conversion point or that pinch point, then you might need to make a decision. But but thankfully we've been able to retain that conversion rate pretty high. And we shocked ourselves, you know. We thought, okay, well, let's put the price up, let's see what happens. And and and I think you know, it's a good model to follow. And I think we are underpaid as conveyancers. You see a lot of it on LinkedIn, but I don't see a lot of price increases across the board, and I think it's perhaps an um a lack of understanding of of the data and understanding how that plays into the decision-making process. But but thankfully we've got access to that data and we were able to make that call.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

I uh I often think about and and you through the course of the podcast, people have probably heard me say this a few times. I often think about professional services in the context of my own experience. So my dad's GP, my mum was a teacher, and they both became head of department or uh senior partner by virtue of the fact that they've been there the longest, or they were very good at their job. It didn't make them very good administrators, it didn't make them very good managers. And you know, we suffer from this in professional services, don't we? We we we we promote people because they're very good at their job, and we expect them to be able to go from being a very good conveyancer to being a very good administrator and manager, and and we don't give them the tools to enable them to make that jump. I mean, this this is a similar sort of scenario, I guess, isn't it? Like you say, if you if you've got access to the data and but you don't know what you're looking at, then you can't make those informed decisions.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah, I think so. I've always been quite entrepreneurial, so I think that's the reason I started evolving the first place, and and and you know, business A levels and economics A levels, so I guess numbers and and business has always been a passion of mine. But I think you're absolutely right. I think you know how many law firms truly understand the data. I mean, if you've got a decent case management system, it will be there. But how often do key decision makers sit down and look at it? Does it drive decision making? And I think that for us, probably in the last two to three years, it's it's driven 95% of our decisions across the business because you know, speak with data, you know, so it it can't lie, really. As long as you've got good data in the system and it's correct, you can actually you can actually use that data to to drive what you're what you're doing rather than sort of you know back of a fag packet, lick your finger, stick it up in the air, which I guess to an extent was sort of how we did it at the start because we didn't know any better. But I think you mature as a business owner and as a founder and you keep learning and sort of reading around your subject, if you like, and then you start to understand how this stuff is really impactful, and it's helped us massively. You know, we don't make any decisions in the business now unless there's a well-thought out plan that's primarily driven by the data that we've got, and we're always looking to granulise that data as low as we can get it to make better decisions. So I think you know, in terms of sort of price increases and costs and profit margins, get a handle on the data, understand it. It's not really that difficult once you start looking, and you can use technology, AI to an extent, to make that stuff really easy for you as well. I get I get a report from Claude every Monday, you know, kind of looking into my spreadsheets and stuff and telling me where we were the week before and sort of you know if we've fallen off slightly or ahead of target. So, again, using what's available to you, I think is a really good way of sort of making that process easier if you don't really understand numbers or it's not really a passion of yours.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, absolutely. I always try in the podcast to articulate what listeners might be thinking or or screaming at the podcast right now. And in the back of my head, I'm thinking to myself, well, you know, we've got a very uh price-sensitive clientele in conveyancing. You know, again, I I hear that, I hear that a huge amount. I get what you're saying about that conversion rate, price pinch point. But ultimately, you've had to go out and sell a higher price to the same clientele. What's that experience been like? How have you managed to get the staff to really buy into that? What what does you know, is that a training process? Is it a is it a case of I mean, you know, coming back to some of the staff staffing that we've talked about, is it a case of horses for courses? We give the people who are good at it the job of doing that kind of thing, you know. I mean, I suspect it's a combination of all.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

I think you know, it starts with firstly accepting that you're not going to win every case, and that's okay. You know, I think it's not, you know, it's a competitive market. I think lots of firms are still competing on price. My view, that's that's absolutely the wrong way to go. But I understand there's some business models where that that drives what they do. For me, it's yeah, you're not gonna win them all, and that's absolutely fine. As long as you know what that pinch point in the conversion is, that's that's absolutely fine. We're not for everyone. I think as well, being a good business in the first place, so having a good brand, you know, being highly recommended on Trustpilot, Google, what whatever review system or platform you want to use. So you've sort of got to start from a good place because it's difficult to increase prices if your reviews aren't very good, or you sort of don't understand your business, or you've you know. So I think for us, yeah, we start from a really good price. We're really proud of our brand, we're really proud of our review scores. Working with your introducers, you know, as a business, we do have introducers, referral agreements. So working on that sales process and understanding that the decision-making process is not when the client comes to you or your the lead comes to you, it's actually before that. It's you know, with the estate agents, with the broker, whoever it might be, working with them and saying, look, we are increasing our prices, here are the reasons, it is still value for money. Uh and and and really after that sort of backing yourselves, you've got to deliver. You can't up your prices and then service standards drop, you know, or you're not delivering on the increased price that you've you've put out there. And and that's sort of it, really.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

There's no secret source necessarily to this. It it's a case of what you're saying is being bold and and similarly emboldening your staff as well.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

I think so. From a staff point of view, they love it because at the end of the transaction, the the invoice probably still doesn't reflect how they feel about the effort, but but equally it feels better. It's nice when you've got a decent invoice and you feel like you've worked really hard for that client and you're being paid probably what the the most you could you could get. It's it's meant that we've been able to reduce caseloads. So I think I put on LinkedIn as as well, but we actually did less completions last year, but as a revenue-wise, that was up by 12%. So they feel happier because they have reduced caseloads, they're getting paid well at the end of the transaction, and you know, all the benefits of having increased profit margins, which means you can invest in high salaries and the technology and the systems that we use, office spaces, lovely things for the guys to do. So there are so many good things, but I think you've I've always been quite bold in my decision making, and it is a bold decision. But if you back yourself, you've got a good business, it is possible, you've just got to hang on tight in those first few months, particularly if the conversion starts to drop because the panic sets in, and you think, you know, and I had it with had it with our team. Oh, we need to drop our prices. No, absolutely I'm quite stubborn as well. So, um, no, we're absolutely not doing it, and and and it's worked. So it's it's a bold move, but I think law firm owners and and managers will be be shocked if actually they just took the plunge and did it, and they'll they'll probably find that you know they've that they'll still get the amount of instructions and leads they need to support the business and you know reduce caseloads and sort of less work for their teams as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

What was the reaction of referrers? You know, you you you said that that's part of your business model. Again, it's quite difficult to go to people that you've worked with and say to them, you know, look, you're gonna get the same service, but I'm gonna charge you you know £500, I'm guessing, you know, 15, 20, perhaps even higher percent you know in increases. That's not an easy conversation to have with people.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

It's not, but I think for all the reasons that I've said, really, so you know, it's it's that sales piece, isn't it? So if you've got good relationships with your introducers anyway, you can have those candid conversations. I think for me it's getting them to understand what the benefit is to them, faster transactions, happier stuff. We can invest more in technology. It's understanding that there's a benefit to them as well, because they've got to sell this to the client, right? They might have two or three law firms that they they introduce. We are in the main the most expensive. But with a lot of these introducers, we win the most amount of work because actually they're doing the sales piece for us because they understand that actually we are investing that those additional funds back into the business. And the important thing after that is doing what you said you were going to do. So if you just take that increase in profit and take more dividends, or you don't share it with the staff and you have a high high staff attrition, then that that doesn't wash for very long. So I think you know, it's it's making sure you commit to those principles that you said you were going to do. And actually, once they start to see the improvements in the service delivery, it's an easy sell for them. You know, they are more expensive, but hey, guess what? They're probably going to get the deal through quicker for you, and you'll get a better service. And what we found as well is in the last few years, clients are willing to pay for that better service. There's always going to be a section of clients who want the cheapest. Primarily, that's driven, I think, because they don't understand what we do. So, why would you pay more? For essentially the same job. That's an educational piece that we need to deliver as conveyances. But I think, you know, clients are happy to pay that extra money for a better service, more personable service, better technology. So I think, you know, it's again it's that consumer behavior and understanding that not all clients want cheap, cheap, cheap. Some are very happy to pay, but you've got to deliver on it. That's that's the secret source. You've got to deliver because as soon as you don't deliver, you're more likely to get complaints, you're more likely to get grumbles because they are paying more money. So you've got to sort of stand the whole piece really to together.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Gavi asking the question with the fact that you can only ever go as quickly as the slowest part of the chain. Has your new model, your your you know, what you're doing on pricing, improved the transaction times you know, measurably?

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Honestly, no. And where we can control things, so we we're fortunate that we're able to act on both sides of transactions. CLC regulated phone, we're allowed to do it, whether you know people agree with that or not. We we don't have any historical issues with that, and the the CLC are very happy, but you know, we we we are about five to six weeks quicker than we are when we're in a chain of transactions. So I would love to sit here and say all of the reasons that I've spoken about that we are super quick and we've been able to magically you know turn deals around in in eight weeks. That's not the case. We're probably sitting around 15 weeks at the moment, which is not something I'm proud of, but there are external factors that I'm sure you know you just want to mention. We are still looking at ways that we can drive that, increase communication. We don't want to be that law firm that sort of sends chaser emails all the time because we understand that everyone's busy. But but equally, I think as a profession, that's definitely something we've got to look at across the board because nobody's happy with it, clients aren't happy with it, introducers aren't happy with it, we're not happy with it as conveyances. So for me, that's a huge piece of work that you know we're one law firm, but I think if we all sort of you know start to really think about how we can drive speed in transactions, I think we're all going to be happier.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Absolutely. I mean, you mentioned about the fact that you've had very positive reviews and that you know this was a decision that was born out of the fact that you you really wanted to leverage that. Again, sort of looking back at the decision and the impact it's had on the business, has it had a positive impact on your review platform? It it's not something that comes up in the podcast a huge amount, but it's so so important, isn't it? We have this culture now. Consumers have this culture where they look at reviews and they will they'll put a lot of stock in it.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's the main. I mean, we're we're we're very proud of our reviews and we direct clients, particularly because we are more expensive, to have a look at competing firms, look at their reviews, understand what people are actually saying. So don't just look at the the stars, actually look at what people are saying. Look at the length of the reviews. If somebody's bothered to sit and write quite a lengthy review about individuals or parts of your systems or aspects of your business, have a look at those reviews because those are the things that will be really meaningful to you. It's definitely had an impact, I think, in the the way clients see us. Again, I go back to the the fact that you've got to deliver, right? So if you are charging a higher price and you can deliver, clients are really, really keen to review your business. They'll go online, they'll shout about you, Facebook groups, trustpilot, Google, and that really drives you forward without the need to sort of increase that introduce a panel or or or network of estate agents that you work with. Repeat and recommended clients are are you know the fantastic because they're they're the ones that are shouting about your business, they're the ones that are telling their friends down the path about how great you are. So I think you've got to deliver. I think that's the key. It's absolutely the key. You've just got to make sure you've structured your business that when you say we are more expensive because we deliver, you've just got to make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

I think um we're we're sort of fast running out of time we have for the discussion. I I think the other thing that I I often think about with this particular issue is if you can make a little bit more money and you can reduce the stress on staff. You're a you know forward-thinking business as well, you've got uh investment in technology, it makes you a much better prospect from a recruitment point of view as well. And and you know, we know that young lawyers are basing their decisions as to whether they join firms, not just on whether they can get a training contract or not. We know that they're like gold dust, but as much about are they the right fit for me from a technology point of view, are they the right fit for me from a cultural point of view? And and that that's a really important part of certainly younger recruits decision making, again, from my from my understanding, and and as I say, from some of the some of the reading and some of the stuff that we've published through today's conveyancer as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

I think it is. I think you know, for me, it's it generates excitement in you, isn't it? So we we we don't want to be tied to our desks all the time, you know. Conveyancing is hard, it's stressful. You feel like you need to always be at your desk, dealing with the emails, phone calls, and and any time away from your desk is wasted time. But I think you're absolutely right. I think that the new generation of lawyers coming through are using these tech these pieces of technology in their personal life. So actually, there's almost an expectation when they come into any company that they they're experimenting, probably the wrong word, but but certainly looking and investigating how these pieces of technology can interact with them, but also with clients. But it makes the day more exciting. So, you know, you're you're not sort of just answering emails and phones, you're actually part of, and we're we're very good as a business at inviting colleagues across the board to come into these conversations at a very early stage. We've got an innovation challenge going on at the moment, it's got to run for Q3, you know, team team-based, looking at what is your big biggest headache within your team, and come up with a technological solution to make that better. Um, and they've they've really grasped it, they've got they've got hold of it, and there's some competitiveness between the teams, and some are looking at uh AI and how that can support parts of what they do, some are looking at sort of functionality and capacity exercises and making sure the right people are working on the right tasks. So I think you know, don't don't be afraid to ask your colleagues what what they're seeing. You know, I think as leaders and owners, we sit there and we think we know all the answers. We absolutely, I certainly don't. But give it to them, get them involved in these projects, get them excited. So when they're coming into work on a Monday morning, that's thinking, oh, another week in conveyancing, you know, they're they're actually sat there and and and discussing how they can innovate. That will drive the business forward. It won't be me, you know, and come up with all crazy ideas and decide how we're gonna do things, but but they will drive the business forward and they will come up with the solutions for the future.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Fantastic, fantastic. Mark, it's been great to have you on the podcast. I mean, I I wasn't expecting anything other than a very frank and honest conversation about the current state of conveyancing. And we could have gone off in any number of different directions, but I really appreciate you sharing uh some of your insight into uh some of the decisions that you've made in the business over the past few months. So thanks very much indeed. Lovely. Thanks for having me. The Today's Conveyancer podcast is available on your preferred podcast provider. It's also available on today'sconveyancer.co.uk. My thanks to Mark. Thank you as ever for listening, and we'll see you again soon.