Robert LaSardo: From Navy Discipline To Screen Grit

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening Splash And Guest Intro
• 1:27 Early Life, Military, And Acting Spark
• 4:20 Tattoos, Rejection, And First Breaks
• 8:20 Richard Pryor And Finding Stage Magic
• 11:55 Seagal Stories And Keeping His Word
• 16:15 Drop Zone Memories And Welcoming Sets
• 18:18 Gary Busey Encounters And Old Hollywood
• 21:10 China Girl To CSI: Trust With Caruso
• 25:55 Waterworld, Critics, And Emotional Cinema
• 31:45 The Internet, Cynicism, And Audience Shift
• 37:15 Rock Legends, Influence, And Humanity
• 40:20 Death Race, Montreal, And On-Screen Impact
• 45:20 Paul W. S. Anderson And Event Horizon
• 50:35 Banking The Art: Money Vs. Creativity
• 56:00 Mergers, IP Machines, And Indie Hope
• 1:00:35 Gratitude For Cinema And Closing CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Attention all you fishes in the sea. I'm your host, Sam Fish. Come dive into the Fishbowl's latest podcast interview with character actor Robert Lozardo, most famous for Above the Law, Out for Justice, Drop Zone, Waterworld, Death Race, and the Mule, among many other films and TV series. Come swim on in. Robert Lozardo on the Fishbowl. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02: 0:27

Thanks for having me, Sam.

SPEAKER_03: 0:29

Absolutely. Thank you for uh taking the time to swim in the bowl with me. I uh I hope I hope the temperature is just right.

SPEAKER_02: 0:39

Me too.

SPEAKER_03: 0:42

Awesome, awesome. Well, I just have to say, like, I have been following your career since I was like a little kid. I was born in '88, so I grew up watching like all the action movies and everything, you know, you appeared in. And I I've I've been just a longtime fan of those types of films. I'm also a huge horror fan. And there's quite a bit of that, you know, you've done as well. And I have a huge long list of questions that it's okay if we don't get it today, because honestly, I could probably do like three or four one-hour interviews covering like your your entire span. But the first question I have for you is what got you interested in film?

SPEAKER_02: 1:34

You know, I Sam, honestly, at first I wasn't interested in it. I didn't understand the mechanism, other than, you know, like any other uh person that enjoyed, you know, watching movies and television shows when they, you know, as a kid that influenced my life. So it wasn't uh preordained, unless you know somebody else had you know a plan for me, which sometimes I wonder about that, you know, greater than myself, because it left to my own devices. Sometimes I go down the wrong road. So I'm sure you some of us can relate to that.

SPEAKER_01: 2:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:07

But to answer your question, I went into the military right out of high school. I I went to the high school, ironically, for the for performing arts, which was a specialized school that you know was ideally a a precursor uh in terms of training and vocation of for theater or film and television. I just couldn't connect the dots. I thought it was fun to perform. I made a very close friend, a teacher there named Anthony Apson, who was instrumental in helping me understand the impact as an artist that I and others can make if we commit to it. And uh I remembered that, but I wasn't ready to embrace it as a as a as a as a duty, as a faith, as a book, you know, as a as a as a career. It didn't seem even possible. It seemed it was about as far away as the earth is from Pluto, this idea of Hollywood and movies. I'm like, no, you know, no way, you know. So I was more at that stage of life, just it was more like a lot of young men who are confused and growing up in a certain way, need to are struggling with identity. And I think that I realized what I realized was at that stage of life that I needed to employ discipline or I was gonna ruin my life. So I I enlisted in the in the military for four years and got got my shit squared away, as they say. And once I got out of the military, I reconnected. Or during my my stint in the military, I kept in contact with Anthony. And he insisted on reminding me not of that I should not lose sight of the creative uh side of my being. And though there was this tendency to want to live a normal, whatever that is, conventional structured life, because so much of my earlier life was not structured and unstable. I think there was this inner yearning for uh a family or identification with something that seemed permanent, you know, or stable. And I traveled the world looking for it. So I, you know, became full circle. And next thing I know, I'm studying with my acting teacher, but privately, you know, a refresh like this refresher course to get reacquainted with the craft of acting and theater, and started auditioning for various television shows, movies. And uh at first I was not thrilled at the process. It was horrifying to audition. And I at that time I was already covered in tattoos. I had already, I don't know, maybe more than 50% of my upper torso was covered in in ink, you know, and it wasn't popular or trendy back in those days. So the comment was always, Robert's very talented, we want to hire him, but we have a problem with the tattoos. It doesn't work in the world that we're making or we're building. So there was a lot of disappointment early on with the auditions and a lot of, I wouldn't say rejection, just a lot of disappointment from the point of view of the of the playwrights that you know that I auditioned for for off-Broadway, I auditioned for movies, I auditioned for television. And it was always like, yeah, his talent is very visible, probably more visible than a lot of people that we see. The irony is what's also visible is the ink, and it's uh creating a barrier, and we can't seem to get past it. Sorry. And so I lost a lot of opportunities or was not allowed opportunity to participate because of my physical appearance. And I don't fault the people that made those decisions based on a visual medium that requires you look a certain way. I totally get it, you know. So I lost heart for a while the first year out of the Navy, and Anthony Apeson insisted that I keep my shirt on, you know, you know, metaphorically and literally, right? Right. They would eventually write roles for me. He had this crystal ball like Merlin and saw a future for me that there would come a time where it would not be as a big of an issue as you think, and your talent would overtranscend this idea of pariah, this idea of taboo, something you should not do as a thespian, and that they would uh find a place for me in the movie industry and I would make a living at it. And a few months later, I went on audition for a Warner Brothers film and uh went through a series of callbacks and was hired to be in a film with Richard Pryor called Moving under contract, was flown out to Los Angeles, and the reality suddenly hit me that Anthony wasn't just blowing smoke. And then I I had had a a proclivity, uh, uh an instinctive feeling that was very positive when I performed on stage. So if you asked me what got me into it is how I felt when I was on stage performing, the rest of the world seemed to disappear. And whatever um fiction or whatever literature I immersed myself in, it possessed me. And uh, I love living in these seemingly fictional worlds that would become the more dominant reality as you dived into character, dived into circumstance, and all of what was you know, basically what's required of the artist to authenticate the playwright's uh literature and and world so that the audience can have a real experience. And there was something about that process and that catharsis, that kind of Ouija board magic, and you know, literally stepping in psychically into other worlds and letting it overtake what you perceive yourself to be in your everyday life was to me like a form of magic. And it truly liberated me temporarily, it seemed to lift me off the ground. And I felt that anything was possible within the frame of that uh realm of performing, you know. That was what really put the hook in me. It wasn't so much like, oh man, you know, I was staring in the mirror all the time and I want to be that guy. I didn't really have an affection for the vanity fair as much as I felt something spiritually assisting me when I would do the work. There was something about it that was healing.

SPEAKER_03: 7:55

That's that's awesome. That's that's very, very cool. And you know, I mean, the the industry has totally changed. I mean, look at people like Danny Trejo, you know, who are covered in tattoos and now he's machete, you know, and people know who he is. And you know, I mean it's it's great that the industry has allowed change to happen, but at the same time, you know, it's it's some some of the most memorable characters that you know I remember you playing were because of you know you having tattoos and stuff like that that allowed you to get you know roles like that. And when I when I actually told my dad that I was gonna be interviewing you yesterday for today, I showed him your picture on IMDB and he was like, Holy shit, you're interviewing that guy, you know, because you know, my my dad is pretty much the guy who got me into like you know all the movies and and music and stuff I'm into. He's the reason I I I went to school here in Pittsburgh to pursue screenwriting, and that's where I started my podcast. And it's very cool to be able to talk to you and talk about you know your career and a lot of your films and stuff, because I'm definitely a big, big fan.

SPEAKER_02: 9:18

Thank you, Sam. If if you don't mind me asking, what's your what's your father's name?

SPEAKER_03: 9:22

Oh Jonathan.

SPEAKER_02: 9:24

Jonathan, tell Jonathan, hey Jonathan, I appreciate that. Uh I'm not gonna assume you have an affection for me, but I appreciate that. Maybe at one point in time you might have watched something I've been in and uh enjoyed it, and that you passed on uh that uh fascination to your son and allowed him to become a uh sounds like you're a film historian, Sam. You very you get really into it. You like me, you do the you do the research, it's not just a trend topic for you, right? You really enjoy cinema, yes, right? Thank you, Jonathan, for raising him that way.

SPEAKER_03: 9:59

I I'm gonna I'm gonna call my dad as as soon as as soon as we're done with the interview. I'm gonna tell him guess what Rob Lazardo said when you said you gotta listen to this interview when it when it's posted. But uh yes, you know, I'm such a fan of film, and I'm such a fan of especially certain genres of film, and it's actually because of my dad letting me see uh total recall when I was five years old. Uh just cover my eyes on the three-tated lady, but everything else was fine, and you know, you know, it left an imprint on me, and I've I've been you know a huge Arnold fan ever since then. I've been a fan of just every single action movie, you know, and it just it just sucks because they don't make you know action movies like like they did in like the 80s and 90s, you know, like like they do today.

SPEAKER_02: 11:00

Agreed. Yeah, it's changed a bit.

SPEAKER_03: 11:04

Yeah, yeah. Now we have like Fast and the Furious and you know superhero movies, and not that I'm dissing Fast and the Furious, you know. I I I I'm invested in that franchise, I grew up with it, you know, but I wanna I wanna see stuff like you know, like like you were in, like, you know, but that means it's a great segue to talk about pretty much the first movie that I I really noticed you and when that was hard to kill. Yeah, Steven Stigal. Yeah, yeah, and I know you also work with him on Alpha Justice.

SPEAKER_02: 11:38

Yes. I got a quick little little anecdote or story for you, if you don't mind. Yeah, yeah. I met Steven at an audition. Like many, I had gone on when I was in Los Angeles at the time, and um after my audition, he was very candid with me and said, you know, I think you're a consummate actor. And he went on to say some other really favorable things. And usually, you know, there's this almost like iron curtain, you know, uh with producers and directors and stars when you go in to read, and you almost wonder whether you fumbled the ball or you, you know, you scored a touchdown. You never really know how to read these individuals, you know, based on you know their body language, their criteria after the fact, you know. Sometimes they can be very dismissive, sometimes they'll engage you, but none of it really adds up to anything until you get the call that you've got the job, right? So you you it's very important, I think, not to be presumptuous about what happens there, you know, positive or negative. It's a lot of fairy dust, you know, that could you know blown into your face. But the point is this that once he said that, I felt it was unusual, other than what my experience had been with Richard Pryor, who's also very candid with me and very personable, and was instrumental in helping helping me uh establish confidence that I did have the right to be where I was with him in this movie, despite a lot of negative uh uh input from people who did not understand the way I was manifesting with the tattoos. Like, good luck with that, you know. But the point is when you have people like this who are living legends or movie stars complimenting outside the circle of negativity and introduce a new way of looking at things, it kind of feels like a rebirth. And that's what it was like for me with Stephen Sagal. And soon after that audition, I was hired to be in that film Hard to Kill with Kelly LeBron, who's his co-star. And I had also the opportunity to speak with him on SETCU because he's very friendly with me. And he mentioned, hey, I got this film project, screenplay and development, and I want you to be in it. He went on to explain a little bit about it, and it turned out to be Offer Justice. And a year later, I got a call from management saying that he wanted to meet with me and wanted me to meet his director. And after a brief uh conversation with the director and Steven, I got the call about a week or two later that I was hired again on a Warner Brothers project and under contract for a couple of months. So, how often, at least my experience is that a lot of people say things in Hollywood, but very, you know, it's very, it's very rare that they mean what they say. And even if they mean what they say, it it doesn't always bear fruit. You know, so you learn early on not to take the compliments or the you know the insults too serious. You just kind of flow like it like the Taoists. You just kind of go where the river goes and with good intention or with with the with your your motivation and hope that you can make impact and someone will recognize that and hire you. My point about Stephen, though, is that he kept his word. I could easily thought, oh, that's nice, man. Oh, you have a project in development, great, wow, cool, and been you know, not necessarily moved by the uh the seeming the seeming offer you know to participate in another movie because it sounded so authentic. I got this character I want you to play in my my next movie, and it seemed like I was having a conversation, not with the celebrity or the icon, but just a man who respected me and his wife as well, at the time, Kelly the Brock, were very friendly, and they were looking at my tattoos and they had no problem with them. We were just talking about them. So it was like a non-issue, which is very rare for me to be in a situation across from this movie star when I had come from a world where everywhere I went, I felt like people were throwing rocks at me because of it and the social dynamics of my life, you know, personal, you know, work jobs I did, I'd have to go in the back where the people wouldn't see me because the boss didn't want people to see that I had tattoos because maybe they wouldn't eat at the place. It just there was so much of this um grime associated with the imagery that's not present in this day and age that when I met very powerful and celebrated celebrities who were actually quite the opposite in the way they perceived me, it was mind-blowing, man. It was truly mind-blowing. So there was no judgment, there was just love and appreciation for my ability. And hey, I want to give you a job. Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_03: 15:54

That that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02: 15:56

And I also just want to ask you Stephen for that.

SPEAKER_03: 15:58

Yeah, that's that's awesome. I I also just want to say that Hard to Kill is my number one favorite, Steven Segal.

SPEAKER_02: 16:07

Right on. That's a good one. It's a good one, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:10

You know, a lot of great stars in that. Well, one of my one of my also long time favorite stars, William Sadler. I'm a big big fan of his, you know, he's he's always he's another great character actor that that's just been a lot of a lot of stuff. But another really awesome action film that I'm a big fan of, and they've just actually been playing it on the movie channels. I've been watching it every single time it's on Drop Zone.

SPEAKER_02: 16:41

Oh, wow, wow. That was a just a movie, man. That was an experience for me. I got to go to Florida, it was you know, back in the 90s, you know. Right. Different world back then. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I know, I know. We filmed in the Florida Keys, Key West, we filmed in Miami, we filmed in Key Largo, I think. We, you know, we moved a bit. There was all quite a few company moves within that geography, uh, and every one of them was you know prettier than the next. You know, it's just an amazing time. And I Wesley Snipes, I've known for years, uh, worked with him on a film. Uh I don't know if you remember this film with Christopher Walken and David Crusoe called King of New York.

SPEAKER_03: 17:24

That's actually on the list. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 17:28

And I known Wesley, and when Wesley saw that I had arrived at this party that's you know, to celebrate the movie, you know, it wasn't a rap party, it was prior to filming, you know, just kind of a welcome to type thing uh and event. And Wesley came right up to me, he said, Hey, hey, hey, Bob, and he gave me a hug. You know, it was really nice. I felt at home. You know, it wasn't any of these, uh, you know, sometimes I guess I've heard stories, you know, some movie stars, they put on airs and you can't talk to them. And it was like just coming home to family, you know, it was really nice.

SPEAKER_03: 17:59

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02: 18:00

And and John Badham, you know, who directed Saturday never, you know, who directed Drop Zone, he was a very nice man, and uh is a very nice man and was, you know, and there's this whole slew of people that I worked with that were very pleasant and friendly, so it was a really nice experience.

SPEAKER_03: 18:16

That's awesome. I I know you've also you've worked with Gary Beusey a couple of times.

SPEAKER_02: 18:21

Yeah, Gary, sure. And uh I called Gary up once after the movie just to say hi and see how he was doing, and he started talking, then he said, Hang on a second, and he grabbed his guitar and started singing to me while we're on the phone. It's like, wow, I'm getting the song out of this too, not just the conversation and small soft. He's he's performing for me. It's great.

SPEAKER_03: 18:43

I I had the chance to meet Gary once. He came to uh Pittsburgh Comic-Con a few years ago, and it was honestly one of the coolest experiences because you know everybody you know has these stories about Gary now and everything. And when I met him, it was like an amazing experience. He was such a nice guy. I I when I go to these conventions, I like to hand out my business card along with like a an official like fishbowl pen. And when he took the pen, it was like he was just fascinated with it, and you know, said that he he would uh possibly do my show. You know, I I I I probably should follow up with him because it's been a while, but he was he's um I'm a huge, huge Gary Busey fan.

SPEAKER_02: 19:41

Yeah, good too. He's a great actor. Yeah, you see the Buddy Holly story, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 19:47

Yeah, and I I I love his son also, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:50

Yeah, brilliance.

SPEAKER_03: 19:52

Yeah. I mean, we could also talk about uh the real thing that you work with him on.

SPEAKER_02: 19:59

Patrick Gallagher, uh Patrick Gallagher, I believe, produced that as a friend of mine from the past, a good really nice guy. He produced that film. And Ashley Lawrence, a friend of mine, was one of the leads in that. Hesai Morales in that was in that film. Ironically, he went to the same high school together. He went to the high school of performing arts and studied with Anthony Apeson as well. And you know, we had this you know kind of friendship, this vicarious friendship over the years, hesi Morales and I. And then I got to meet Rod Steiger, the Illustrated Man, ironically. I don't remember him playing that role in the book, Rick Barry, Ray Bradbury's book, The Illustrated Man, but uh it was bizarre, you know, to see him, you know, old Hollywood, you know, golden age of Hollywood right there on the set, and it's an event. Right, right. And uh yeah, so yeah, the real thing. Yeah, I remember that shooting that film. I think they was the director's name, James Marandino, I think it's his name, James Marandino directed that forgive me if I'm getting the names wrong. I think that was the name of the director.

SPEAKER_03: 20:59

No worries. I I'm honestly not a hundred percent sure on that. So you and you've also worked with James Russo a couple of times. I'm a big fan of his as well.

SPEAKER_02: 21:10

Yeah, yeah. We I think I I did my one of my one of my early, my first independent film directed by Abel Ferrara called China Girl.

SPEAKER_03: 21:19

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02: 21:20

Starring David Caruso and and James Russo, yeah. Right. Who you know, fast forward into the future that I'd be working with uh J J James Russo and David Caruso on you know NYPD Blue and then CSI Miami. I'm gonna jump, I'm gonna I'm gonna jump ahead. I tend to do this, so I'll jump around.

SPEAKER_03: 21:39

No, you're you're fine, you're fine.

SPEAKER_02: 21:40

So let's fast forward into like you know 2000, whatever it was. I think it was 200 maybe 11, that I was doing I they brought this character back, a character back that I was portraying called Memo Fiero on a part of this cartel named the Mala Noche. And I don't know what season it was of CSI Miami, but anyway, long story. Sure, is that David and I were talking, and to the producer's amazement, because I didn't realize this, but David was apparently, I guess, I wouldn't say he was feared, but he was a very private man, and it seemed to be, uh, from what I was noticing, and that he was extremely calculative and very meticulous about how he wanted to go about the episodes. You know, almost got the sense that he was co-directing at times and would discuss with the writer sometimes in a heated fashion about certain scenes that he wanted to adjust. So I got the sense that his presence just wasn't the star, but like that he had creative influence. And when him and I just started just small talking about the past, and we used to talk a lot about this movie Apocalypse Now, directed by Francis Borcloppola. That's a classic, right? He was fascinated with this film, and so was I. So we'd have like these existential philosophical conversations about the film, and he would tell me things that he thought, and I would share that. And the producers was like, take me aside after we'd finish the day, and they'd say, Wow, like how do you know David? I go, Well, David and I go way back. I did my first independent film with him, you know, uh you know, uh called China Girl, and then we worked on NYPD Blue together, and you know, we've run into each other on the street, we run into you know King of New York, you know. So I've known David, and and David has an affection for me, and uh, we we think alike. And they were like, wow, because he doesn't talk to anybody. I said, wait a minute. Yeah, I said, What? How did you get him to? I said, I'm like, why are you asking me this, man? You guys are the producers. You're telling me that you can't communicate with your own star. I don't know if it was fear or or maybe he just didn't feel like you know, he uh like I said, his method was maybe very uh specific and uh and monastic, and he just maybe wanted to be left alone. But I guess it was not an a usual occurrence to see David Caruso, the star of CSI Miami, you know, small talking with a guest star on the show, you know, like what's your deal, Robert? What you know, how do you know this guy that he's opening up to you in a way that he would never open up to people who he's been working with for years, you know? And I I I I counted that as a victory for myself. I thought, wow, that must be special or something. But simply it was just that him and I connected, man. You know, right? He liked me and I liked him, and it was no, there was no cra there was no bolt, you know, it was just straight talk, man, about things we both were could relate to, independent of the work that we were doing, you know. And it's nice when that happens because it doesn't happen a lot. So yeah, James Russo, and then I went on to work with dude, I did a couple of films with James Russo. China Girl, I did the real thing, I did this other thing, I think it was called Blood Money. I it might have changed the title. And I recently was in a film that starring a gentleman named Ciro DiPaggio, the mob king, where James Russo is in that, and I have a cameo in that film. So yeah, James and I keep running into each other indirectly. You know, it's wild. He's been around, like you know, he's he's he's like me. He's done many combat tours in the industry of shows. I he once said to me, because we sometimes we would hang out in the early days in the 90s, and he was really a skillful baseball player. And one of the things he noticed about me while he was hitting these monstrous home run balls that I pitched to him was my endurance to run after the ball and catch. And he said, Man, you've got endurance. And so I took that as a compliment in terms of that what he meant was that as long as you have the endurance to deal with what's gonna go, you know, what basically is in front of you in terms of career, you know, you're gonna do fine. And so I I I understood what he was saying, uh, kind of metaphorically as well, because he had made comments to me along those lines, and I appreciate it because a lot of times these some of these guys are not nice, you know. So you it's always surprising to me when someone offers uh a compliment that you know, aside from you know their own, you know, ego trip. So that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03: 26:05

That's awesome, that's very cool. Yeah, he he he seems like a like a really nice guy. Uh he's he's another guy I've been trying to get on my show. Um, I could you know talk for hours about stuff he's he's been in.

SPEAKER_02: 26:19

Yeah, he's worked with like you know, he's worked with a lot of people. I'm sure he has a lot of stories to tell. You know, the question is how many does he want to tell? You know, um, but you know, because it's not always not all roses, right? Is it?

SPEAKER_01: 26:31

Uh people don't want to hear that.

SPEAKER_02: 26:33

Some people want to hear hear the dirt, and some people want to talk to glory. You know, I like to do a little bit of both myself. But yeah, James has worked with a lot of people. He told me things, shared information with me about certain stars that he worked with, and you know, and it was mind-boggling. Some of the stories that he shared with me and some of his experiences and how close he got to that circle of power and you know what he witnessed.

SPEAKER_03: 26:56

I'll just leave it there. Interesting, very interesting. Yeah. Another film that I I I am I'm a big big fan of, and you know, I and and I really think Jim Carrey quoted it the best in the cable guy, uh, and that was Waterworld. I know Waterworld didn't it didn't get like well received at the time it came out, but but for me, and and I think a lot of other people that were like my age at the time, we loved it. And despite what the critics may may have said about it, it it's a fun action, it's it's like Mad Max with water, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 27:45

Yeah, yeah. I don't put a lot of stock in in a certain percentage of the critics because I've watched films that I've enjoyed thoroughly and then referenced the Rotten Tomatoes. And I asked myself, did you did you see the same movie that I oh I I know, I know it doesn't make sense, and then they praise something, they praise the glory of something, and I'll watch it and I don't connect with it. It's like trying to tell somebody what kind of music they like. Exactly. It's a really slippery slope. It's not a I don't know if this the science of cinema clearly is there, but I think there's other aspects and elements that make films work that don't necessarily abide by the physics of cinema science that have to do with the the the character study or the soul power of the film or the writing or you know the disposition of character that communicates an emotion or an archetype that people can identify with and touches them in their heart. I think the analytics of criticism with a lot of these people who observe movies from that point of view is very intellectual and it seems to divorce itself from the heart of the matter. And some movies are driven purely by the heart itself rather than all the technical flaws that people, you know, so willingly want to find and dismiss the emotional content. And I think emotional content, if it's communicated authentically, can change people's lives. I know it has for me. When I watched movies, and I afterwards I was like, the movie stayed with me my whole life, or for months afterwards, I was still there because I was it touched me, and I didn't have time to look at the flaws because I was so enamored or pulled into the experience of character relationships and the story that I didn't care about that stuff. And I think most critics they tend to divorce not all of them, but some it seems a pattern, they divorce themselves emotionally and look at it like it's some kind of physics project, you know. And I don't I think it's dangerous when you reduce art to mathematics, man. I think there's a place for it, but you can't sometimes they go a little overboard with that.

SPEAKER_03: 29:53

I I completely agree, you know, because I mean, especially like like I mean, you you could tell things were kind of shifting when that movie came out because it you know, like in the 80s and even before that, 70s, you know, all cinema before that, like like you could you could make like a a concept and have it kind of be totally out of the box, and and it could be sci-fi, fantasy, action, or you know, horror, whatever. And now it's like you kind of have to have films that are almost, I mean, at least mainstream, that are more on, I guess, like like a realistic based platform, even if they are, you know, in the realm of sci-fi or fantasy, you know, or something. You can't you can't like make a like a movie that, you know, because people criticize plot holes and stuff now way more than I feel like they did back in our, you know, the like when we were when I was growing up, you know, and back in the 80s and 90s, people were more just entertained with going to see, you know, a movie, you know, and and now people, it's you know, you have you know, the the internet has almost made it impossible to kind of like get away with out seeing you know someone talking bad about something about something, you know, when the movie could have been great or you know, or it may not, you know, but like like you know, you said and before, you know, it's all subjective.

SPEAKER_02: 31:39

Yeah, and and that brings me to a more personal point. I mean, if I were to rely on the perceptions of some of the people that uh I met throughout my earlier life and their evaluation of me on a personal level, creative level, whatever the evaluation was, and their checklist, and believed in that stuff, I might not be alive right now. And I'm not trying to be melodramatic or anything, but I think that it's dangerous when you allow other people's opinions to influence the way you move through life, how you experience it, and the perception of this idea of self, you know. And it's the same thing with film, you know, you make a film or you collaborate with others to make a film, and it's like building a house, you know, and you try to build it the best way you know how, and so people can live in it and it can hold the weight of the responsibility of what it needs to hold. And you look at each other ideally and hold hands or shake each other's hands, say, hey man, we've built this. And whether the people that look at it objectively and say, I don't like that kind of house, who cares? I mean, there's gonna be people who like it, there's gonna be people that that don't like it, there's gonna be people who don't want to burn it down. I think it speaks more to the observer than the house itself. And I and that's you know, my meaning that the audience, what you're saying about audiences today, I don't know what the issue is. I have some I some theories, but I won't go into it too much, but I just feel like it's more reflective of the audience than it is the cinema.

SPEAKER_00: 33:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 33:06

I still witness brilliance brilliance in films that are mind-blowing. And I read the reviews and I'm like, wow. And I've known a couple of critics, and what I noticed about some of them was that their personal lives didn't seem very fulfilled. And I think when you lean too heavy on the art form to fill in the gaps of your life, and you condemn it because it doesn't necessarily bring you into a state of nirvana or you know, blow your mind to the degree in which you want it to, because you've gotten so used to watching film after film that you it becomes redundant. There's this, I think, maybe unconscious temptation to confuse your own personal life or whatever dissatisfaction you're experiencing, and place that responsibility on the film, on responsibility on the film. And and that's not reasonable. And I I a lot and I remember talking to some people I knew that were critics who would ask me, What did you think about that? And I would explain how I felt about the film experience, and like, really, that's what you got from that. I go, I didn't even understand half of the movie. So I would explain it to them thinking, how scary it is that this person has the power to critique this film and doesn't even understand the material, but yet I completely got it. I'm not saying I'm smarter than this individual, but you you know, people give some people give a lot of credibility to these people, some of these individuals who've been anointed to observe, evaluate, and judge whether or not the film bears the required, you know, the required specifications of merit based on a program. But I I wonder sometimes if the people that are setting up that checklist are reasonable in how they observe and judge things. I wonder about that, and because I've seen evidence personally that they're not always looking at things with uh both eyes opened or they don't even understand what they're watching. And so if they don't understand it and they can't decipher the subtext or the deeper meaning, the esoteric meaning of the film, rather than ask for help to understand what they've witnessed, they discount it as in oh, it's incoherent filmmaking. Doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to you. But just because you don't necessarily understand the lyric of a Jimi Hendrix song or a riff that's played by some really far-out guitar player, doesn't mean that it doesn't communicate its own genius, you know. So I think there's limitations in in terms of the observer looking at various genres of cinema and their ability to recognize in a balanced way both what works in a film and what doesn't, I still think ultimately should come away with that they were entertained by it somehow. Well, you know, was there anything that you liked about it? Is what I always asked. Clearly, there's evidence in film history where the filmmakers were negligent and didn't care about the material and it was an exploitation piece, and clearly that would be dealt with accordingly. But when you have films that you can tell there's a lot of work went into them, and the performances are really just inspiring. And some person comes along and just glosses over it like an inconsequential variable, like it has no meaning, and focuses on one point or a couple of points in the film that did not work based on their criteria, they ignore everything else. Some of them do, some of them are well balanced in their observation. They say, Well, I like this, this, and the A, B, C, and D, but this was confusing to me. But you know what? You watch it. If you like this, this, and this, you probably will enjoy this. I think you can evaluate films in a reasonable way. I think the problem now is that there's so many opportunities, like you said, with the internet, to be a self-proclaimed critic. I wonder sometimes how legitimate these people are in their ability to observe things in a reasonable and correct, not correct, a reasonable and merciful way, man.

SPEAKER_01: 37:08

Right. You know, right.

SPEAKER_02: 37:09

Are they using the station for their own grandiosities, you know, to be grandiose so they can rip something apart because it makes them feel empowered, you know, or are they actually pointing out something that a lot of people agree, yeah, this was a a substandard product because it's not a not watchable movie, and all would agree, or a lot of people would agree. But like I said, I think the problem is that really quality films suffer under the this tyranny of extreme judgment, man. And I don't know, I don't understand where that's come from. I I like I said, I have some theories about work. I think it has a lot to do with people in their personal lives not feeling fulfilled, and they project that onto the movie, or maybe they are frustrated in their own lives because they may have wanted to, they had some creative dream that was never fully realized, and they use their platform to blame, you know, unconsciously or consciously, filmmakers for something that has nothing to do with the film itself, but because they were not able to either participate, produce, act, write, whatever, they're kind of you know sh spewing a lot of their own dispersonal disappointments and using the film. It's like, you know, it's a kind of a form of abuse. Like, well, this bio, this biological father abused his son, so the son is now passing on the same abuse, you know, without recognizing that it's you know, you're being abusive to you're abusing your station and and you're abusing the art form because you feel left out. You feel that you were not treated fairly. And so now you're gonna take that frustration and revenge out on filmmakers and people that have nothing to do with any of that, you know, and I think there's a lot of misdirection in that in that sense, where people are projecting their frustrations about their own careers onto actors, writers, directors, and producers because they're simply not being invited into the project. And so they damn it to hell, so to speak. And I think there is a percentage of that. No one, I I doubt very very few people would admit that. They may not even be conscious of it. But it is a very competitive field, and competition by its very nature doesn't always create a kumbaya moment. You know, it creates uh envy, and envy sometimes can get quite ugly in the way it uses liter, you know, uh its cleverness uh to seemingly, you know, this object to employ this objective uh reasoning uh as it rips something apart, and it's not being objective at all. It's uh it's it's just using its the the intelligence in a way to uh uh deconstruct and tear things down and basically remove the inspiration that uh the spirit of of of collaboration that the people came together for in the first place, you know, uh because they fell in the critic feels uninspired. And they draw inspiration by tearing things down. It's like this almost like pyromaniac kind of psyche, like, well, I love to watch it burn, you know. But to build requires so much work and efforts, and you have to take risks when you build. You got to really put yourself out there. And I think that portion gets forgotten when things are judged and observed. And it's I think sometimes it can be a cowardly way to evaluate things if you don't evaluate them with balance. I'm not saying you have to, you know, approach every film like it's um a masterpiece. I'm just saying if you're saying to me, Robert, I noticed that things have changed over the years, and the the judgments are severe in terms of observation of cinema, and the critiques and the and the critics are just you know light, you know, basically gaslighting every every five minutes, then what does that say? You know, is it are all the films really that bad? Or are people's lives, you know, is it more of a reflection of people's lives? I mean, it's a rhetorical. I don't know the answer. Right. But I cannot believe based on being a consumer, because I am a film consumer, I watch a lot of movies, you know, and I'm not gonna uh play party to this idea that cinema is collapsing, that we're in the dark ages, that there's no light, there's no hope, it's all crap. I don't believe that because it's just when I start to think along those lines, I'll watch a movie and I go, wow, you know, it may not be a mainstream film, maybe it's a moderate budget, who knows what classification it's it's measured and based on banking, but I don't care about that. I'm I look at it and I go, wow, man, that was really good. It really affected me. Wow, you know, time well spent. And I see, I I think to myself, why would people be so critical to divorce themselves from an opportunity of escapism where they can feel better about their day-to-day life? Because that's, I think a lot of people utilize movies for that way, because maybe their lives are not that much, not that exciting, or maybe they're having a problem with their personal life, and they we escape into fantasy to try to remedy this, this, this, the stink of of reality sometimes, you know, and it helps us like a shot, a whiskey, or you know, whatever. And so, in that sense, why would you condemn or damn the very thing that is basically helping you escape from your day-to-day life and and the humdrum this? I don't understand that. I don't get that part. Never have.

SPEAKER_03: 42:37

I'm honestly kind of baffled by it too, because I mean, I I went to school for the movies, you know. I'm I'm about the movies, my passion is movies. Yeah, same, same with music. You know, I I I interview a lot of musicians as well. I'm a big rock and roll guy. Yeah, right on, you know, Hendrix is my number one from classic rock era. My thing, I think him with Banned Gypsies was the best. Big, big classic rock fan, all thanks to my dad. I've seen uh I've seen a few the the ones that I wanted to see from that era that are still around. My my first concert was Roger Daltrey open for Eric Clapton. That that was a good show. I've seen a big Alice Cooper fan. Um I've seen I've seen him like 10 times.

SPEAKER_02: 43:34

No more than Mr. Nice Guy.

SPEAKER_03: 43:36

Yeah. And on the topic of of rock and roll, I had the chance to meet Meatloaf before he passed.

SPEAKER_02: 43:48

That album changed my life, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 43:55

Right, right, right, right. He was a super. Super nice guy in person. Really just, I mean, when when he he came to um Pittsburgh's Comic-Con last year, and I waited in like must have been like a three and a half hour line to get up to him. And the reason that it took so long was because he was literally taking like at least like five or ten minutes to talk with every single person who came to to meet him, get a picture, get an autograph, or whatever. And just I I have nothing but good things to say about Meatloaf. And you know, may may he rest in peace and and rock and roll heaven. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 44:47

Certainly speaks to his humanity that he engaged the people that way.

SPEAKER_03: 44:51

Definitely, definitely. And he was supposed to come back to like the the following April to to do another show, and unfortunately, you know, he he passed.

SPEAKER_02: 45:02

But yeah, we're all just passing through, right?

SPEAKER_03: 45:06

Yeah, yeah. But you know, let's let's get back to you here. I I I there's no way we're gonna get to everything on the list here, but there's a couple more film, like ones I did want to talk about. One one that was pretty cool that I'm I'm a big, big fan of because like I said, Mad Max is a is a is a big uh big inspiration for me, and that's Death Race.

SPEAKER_02: 45:31

Oh, yeah, yeah. That was also not just a movie, but an experience, you know, on camera and off camera place. I'd never been to Montreal before, that's where we filmed it in Canada, Montreal. I was um staying at a hotel in a place called Oldport, which is just this historically beautiful place with masonry and buildings that were built hundreds of years ago. It's just like uh living in a museum. It's amazing, just the setting where they had us housed was beautiful. And I was there for three months. So I got I got the full tour, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 46:10

Awesome, awesome. That that movie is wild. I mean, the all the stuff with the cars and the the weaponized, you know, vehicles and stuff. I have I have to just say this for a sec because that movie was a major inspiration on a script that I'm currently working. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the name Patrick Kilpatrick.

SPEAKER_02: 46:35

Yeah, yeah, sure. Admit that.

SPEAKER_03: 46:37

I'm currently working with him to try and get one of my scripts made into a feature film, and it it involves a lot of like hot rods and and like you know, Mad Max type, you know, road rage type mayhem.

SPEAKER_01: 46:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:58

And I just have to say that, you know, along with Mad Max, you know, the Death Race movies were a major. I I was I was watching Death Race a lot when when I was writing the the script. So I just I just want to say that that movie is awesome.

SPEAKER_02: 47:17

Well I'm glad you you you it affected you. I'm still kicking myself for not going to the premiere or to the theatrical release. I was afraid actually to go watch it on the big screen. You think I'd be run to the theater to see something, you know, is uh that provided an opportunity for that kind of visibility and something that was, you know, not just a it wasn't just a movie, man. It was a you know thrill rides as an event, right? So I go into your own your own graduation, you know. I don't know what what it was. I have some ideas, but I on a more positive note though, I remember when I finally did muster up the courage to watch it by myself alone. I was blown away by it, and then I was really upset that I never got to see it on the big screen, you know. Um but when I I didn't because you know I it's ambiguous sometimes the way they work out the deals with agents and producers and stuff, so I didn't know how the the presentation of my character would play. I mean, I was in Canada when I was contacted by the studio to do ADR, you know, the the you know sound replacement for certain scenes in the movie, and I got a a little bit of a a preview of its potential, and I was like, my jaw dropped. I could not believe what I was watching. I was like, wow, I didn't realize the magnitude of this thing, you know, and how uh visible they're I'd planned on making my character because I had been, you know, experienced you know some disappointments throughout the years, and not I learned not to get my hopes up, you know, because you just you know the gravity shift is too much, you know. So you go and expect me, okay, they're gonna cut most of my scenes, and you know, they probably won't even do the billing correctly. And they did everything right. They gave me main title billing, single card, they championed the glory of this character Grimm, and just the the car sequences were you were uh mesmerizing. Everything was was was there. Uh, and so uh even with this preview of doing the ADR and seeing like, wow, this is gonna be something else. I was still you know afraid to see it in the theaters, you know. But I'm glad did you see it when it came out in the movie theaters?

SPEAKER_03: 49:23

I did, I did.

SPEAKER_02: 49:24

Cool. Glad someone was I'm glad you got to see it in the theaters.

SPEAKER_03: 49:27

Yeah, I I was very, very in it that when I saw the trailer for it. Well, first of all, I of course know about like Death Race 2000. Yeah, yeah, the Roger Corman, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 49:40

Yeah, was that Stallone and Carradine?

SPEAKER_03: 49:42

Yeah, Stallone and Carradine, yeah. Yeah, you know, so I I was familiar with like the I guess we'll be like Grindhouse type type type version of it, yeah, uh the original one. And then when I saw Paul W S Anderson uh got his hands on that material, first of all, I've been a fan like he blew me away with Mortal Kombat. And you know, like I you know, I grew up in that that era, you know, where like you know, Mortal Kombat as like a little kid, you know, when when you're when you're you know growing up with like Sega Genesis and you know Super Nintendo and all that, and like Mortal Kombat was like my game. And when I saw that you know they were doing a movie uh of it, and then you know, my again, my dad took me to see that in theaters one one summer night, you know, after school or something, and it was I I I I I remember exactly where we saw it, I remember exactly where I saw the second one. I know who we saw it with, which theater, and you know, I've been a huge fan of anything he does, whether it's like you know, video game adaptation or anything, because another movie that had Gary Busey in it that he directed that I'm a big big fan of is Soldier with Kurt Russell and Jason Scott Lee. That's one of my favorite sci-fi flicks. And I happen to think that Event Horizon is like his his top, like one of his best films.

SPEAKER_02: 51:27

Yeah, yeah. That to me is a film that is multi-layered, yeah. It's not just the sci-fi, you know, variable, there's other things going on right in the subtext of what they're communicating that's really profound. You know, you just gotta stick deep in your observations. I think that film requires more from its audience than some of the other movies.

SPEAKER_03: 51:49

I de I definitely agree. And and I'm kind of upset that you know the studio doesn't they they don't want to pay basically to to find like the to get like the lost footage that that you know would would have that would have they all got cut because it was like you know too graphic, yeah, whatever with like the the hell sequences or whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 52:12

Yeah, it's ironic given the kind of world we live in.

SPEAKER_03: 52:16

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02: 52:17

They want to censor that aspect of things, but yet you know they send my brothers off to the Middle East to fight. But and I'm not knocking the war, I'm a veteran.

unknown: 52:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 52:27

I'm just saying it's ironic to me some of the censorship that goes on. And I think when you made a point earlier about how things have changed since the 90s, I think I think it was Ellen Burston interview who she said that something trying to, I don't I can't quote it, but I think what she was the what I got from her comment about her observation in terms of what was happening was that the creative element was being siphoned out, and it was less influential in the decision process of making movies and the motivation behind making them. And it was turning more into a mathematical equation, like it lived in a bank somewhere, right? Rather than the two working together. You know, they were trying to remove the creative voice, the people that sat at the table that wanted to take risks and do things. The money people would say, nah, nah, nah. So I think over time what's maybe happened is that influence of you know, the money influence, the banking influence, and this preoccupation with how much did it make this weekend. I don't people used to talk like that around me, and I would just leave the conversation and walk away. What's wrong, Robert? I'm not a banker, man. I don't you guys are tallying up movie scores and numbers and stuff, like you work for Paramount, you know, you're in the in the accounting department. You guys are just filmmakers trying to put together your own independent film, yet you're talking like the man. You sound like you sound like a TV commercial, bro. It scares me. I can't relate to none of that. The people that you're evaluating, the movies you're evaluating, you know, that same evaluation, like that saying, you know, judge not, you know what I mean? Let's ye be judged with, you know. So it's kind of like I saw how critical some of these young men were with things that they watched, and they would measure it based on commerce, and yet they tried to get a movie off the ground and couldn't understand and would go through hell trying to raise finance to put something together, and which is respected. I I can respect any independent filmmaker, anyone who's trying to build something from the ground up and doesn't have a whole lot of money, but just is spirited enough to get the right people involved to produce the thing, like you're doing, like a lot of people I know have done. And so when people have conversations like this and they talk about the corporation like they're in it, or they sound like they're a part of it, it frightens me because to me, some of those guys in those positions are your enemy, man. They're not gonna sanction your film or even look at it or care when it comes to distribution about placing it in a proper platform, because their bottom line is the very thing you guys are discussing, money. And last time I looked, I thought you guys were artists. I'm not saying you should be naive in terms of uh the physics of math and all that. I'm not saying be just an artist and not understand the business side, but you're evaluating things based on numbers rather than how the entertainment itself is affecting your heart and your spirit or inspiring. You guys don't sound like creators, you sound like you work in a bank for a big corporation and you guys barely can rub a few nickels together to get your own movie made. I mean, you hypocrites much. So I I can't participate too much in that kind of that diatribe or that dialogue because it reeks of envy, it reeks of uh inadequacy, all kinds of things, man. And um, I didn't get into it for that. And so my point is when Ellen Burst made that comment about it changing with someone of that caliber and that station of movie star who's been around for years, man. You know, you were talking about the last picture show, you know. Right, right. The actress is, you know, great film. She's been in an, you know, uh Alice doesn't live here anymore, Martin Scosese, Harvey Cartel. She's been in some amazing movie, she's a great and consummate actress. I saw her teach at the actors' studio because that was part of the Working Observer program there. Brilliant actress, good brilliant actor, right? And so when you hear people like this talking along those lines about how the industry is changing, and it's like it's not paranoia anymore, it's just awareness to the changing of the guard and what the what the priority is, man. And so I don't think it's any sh it's into any surprise. Your observation about, yeah, it's weird now how they go about doing things and what's their motivation behind making these things. And do they really care? Are they just trying to turn and burn and flip something over that's old and seem to make it new by those who don't know the history of film, so they can sell something to the public as if it they, you know, it's original. In fact, it's just a carbon copy of and a carbon copy of something that was by far superior because the people who made it loved it. They weren't in love with the money, they were in love with what they were building. If they could make money, great. You know, I think it's you can balance both to be driven by to lean too much on either pole, I think is dangerous. I think there's a way to kind of you know find equanimity within both of those. And I think sometimes that gets lost when greed enters the room, and a lot of the time greed enters the room.

SPEAKER_03: 57:30

I definitely agree. Yeah, I definitely agree. And uh, you know, so much so much on on that subject, it's like when you have all these mergers and stuff, you know, like like Disney buying, you know, Marvel and Star Wars and 20th Century Fox, you know, and then you have, you know, like like just you know, corporate merging that some sometimes, you know, like like like you said, you know, creativity kind of gets lost, and are they trying to like you know, McDonald's manual manually manufacture something that's you know based on profits versus artistic originality? And I I think in a lot of mainstream movies that I mean it it seems to me that is the case, but yet you still have a lot of like mainstream stuff that maybe doesn't get the attention that something like you know Star Wars or Indiana Jones number five, you know, is is gonna get, but it could it could be like more of you know an indie film or something you know with a smaller budget, a horror film that that could have you know you know had something new, an idea that hadn't been done before. But I I I agree with you, there is still a lot of great stuff out there and coming out. I just it is for it, man.

SPEAKER_02: 59:06

I live Sam, I live for it. So I'm not gonna damn it to hell, man, or be overjudgmental. You know, why should I? If a movie entertains me and takes me out of my head for an hour and a half or an hour long, hey, mission accomplished. Thank you, Philmakers. Exactly. Everyone involved, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03: 59:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 59:24

Right? I mean, it's not that complicated. I don't, you know, it's not, I don't I don't understand the hate hate part or the uh the the crit the criticisms, the endless criticisms. Right, right. And I I try not to give attention to that stuff, I just look the other way. I don't there's nothing productive in that.

SPEAKER_03: 59:44

So do I, so do I. I mean, I I don't listen, I I've never listened to the critics. I you know, I need to see if I I need to see the film for myself. You know, if if it if it looked like something that I wanted to check out, that means I need to I need to see it for myself and make my own judgment, you know, and I think you know, a lot of people need to do that with you know life in general and and movies and and just not just with movies, you know, like like you know, they need to just make their own assessment on you know day-to-day life, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:21

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:29

What's up, all my fishes in the sea? Thanks for tuning in to my interview with Robert Lazardo and for being a subscriber. You can tune in next Saturday at 11 a.m. Eastern Time for our conclusion interview with Robert. There's a lot of cool stuff we still have in the chat, and you're definitely not gonna want to miss that. You can also subscribe for early access on my Bud Sprout website. I am also accepting donations on there from all you kind, generous guppies in the sea. I'm also selling custom merch now, t-shirts, mugs, pens, all the coolest stuff to make you look like the fliest fish in the sea. You can DM me directly on the Instagram at thefishbowl8, Facebook just the fishbowl, or directly friend request me on Facebook at Sam Fish. Thank you for your continued support, and if you like that, I got a lot of cool stuff in the works this year, so stay hooked on the fishbowl. And as always, please subscribe.