Wearing The Colors Anyway

The shine of a big break doesn’t always light the path ahead. We sit down with character actor Robert LaSardo to explore what success really feels like when the cheers fade and the measuring starts—how to wear your colors after a loss, why loyalty outlasts gossip, and what it takes to keep your spirit intact inside a machine that rewards visibility while testing your soul.

Robert brings us into the surreal joy of working on The Mule with Clint Eastwood—from a simple self-tape to notes, a greenlight, and then the quiet shock of meeting a legend who leads without ego. He shares how Eastwood “plays jazz” on set, trusts improvisation, and eats with his crew like family. That humility becomes a masterclass in creative leadership: protect the work, respect people, and let honesty breathe. We also touch on a tender moment with Andy Garcia that affirms how old-school respect still matters and how being seen can reset your day.

From there, the conversation tackles film literacy, lowered standards, and the seduction of spectacle. Robert contrasts meaningful storytelling with the numbing effect of relentless visual stimulation and weightless violence. He champions writing what you know, building teams around authenticity, and using craft to entertain without dumbing down. We thread Scorsese’s evolving style, Woody Allen’s neurotic wit, and the enduring power of films like The Poseidon Adventure, American Graffiti, and The Exorcist—stories that last because they carry consequence, atmosphere, and soul.

Robert closes with American Trash, his new film in post-production: a raw, compassionate portrait of PTSD, apathy, and environmental care set in Los Angeles. It’s a 1960s spirit reimagined for right now, asking us to look at the ground under our feet and the people beside us, then choose community over indifference. If you care about acting, directing, or simply watching better movies, this conversation is a compass—equal parts grit, gratitude, and guidance.

Enjoyed the episode? Subscribe, share it with a film‑lover, and leave a quick review to help more curious listeners find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Waterworld Pride
• 0:23 Loyalty Over Industry Gossip
• 2:00 Success, Envy, And Isolation
• 4:48 Psychic Guard And Vicious Business
• 6:02 Faith In Craft Over Vanity
• 7:10 Measuring Wins Without Money
• 9:10 Glory Is Fleeting And Resilience
• 11:02 Transition To The Mule
• 12:12 Auditioning And Getting The Call
• 13:30 Eastwood’s Set: Trust And Jazz
• 15:25 Humility At Lunch And Crew Family
• 17:10 Andy Garcia’s Old-School Respect
• 19:10 Film Literacy And Lost History
• 21:44 Spectacle, Programming, And Standards
• 24:20 Violence, Realism, And Responsibility
• 27:30 Craft, Honesty, And Purpose
• 30:10 Scorsese, Allen, And Writing What You Know
• 32:40 Authenticity Plus Entertainment Formula
• 34:20 Social Impact Versus Pure Entertainment
• 36:10 Favorite Films And Why They Last
• 39:20 American Trash: Themes And Vision
• 43:20 Post-Production And Distribution Hopes
• 46:20 Closing, Thanks, And Merch CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Attention, all you fishes in the sea. Thanks for tuning in. I'm your host, Sam Fish. Today we'll be wrapping up our conversation from last week with character actor Robert Lozardo. You want to get hooked on this one and keep a keen ear because this is going to be a great continuing conversation. As always, please remember to like, share, and subscribe.

SPEAKER_00: 0:23

But you know, you brought up Waterworld, and I I think it was very it was it was something else, man, to be walking around Hollywood where I lived at the time wearing a shirt that was given to me by a production that said Waterworld on it. And I remember one of my friends pointing out, saying to me, in not such a kind way, aren't you a little embarrassed to be walking around with that shirt on? But like, no. Why'd I be embarrassed? He goes, Well, that was a that was a you know industry flop and all this, like once again, the mathematics of it. The point is that I didn't care, man. I've never cared about the judgments of men, of men, of people who uh feel that it's uh some kind there's some kind of insight into pointing things out like that. I looked at it like this. I said, Well, I went to Hawaii, I was on the island of Kona, I got to meet Kevin Costner. He was very nice to me. Kevin Reynolds hired me. I got paid a a really decent salary and I had fun. You know, all this other stuff that you guys are involved in has nothing to do with me, man. Can I go now? I'm just celebrating. I'm like, I'm not one of these people, like if I'm in a club riding a motorcycle, you know, and I got a 1% patch on my back, and we took a beating yesterday by a rival club, I'm not gonna take my patch off and put on a different color because we got our asses kicked. I'm gonna wear my colors and maybe next fight we'll win. I'm gonna stay loyal to the cause because the cause was loyal to me. So I'm not gonna talk crap about the people that hired me and gave me an opportunity. You know, I went from drop zone to to Waterworld, man. So from where I was sitting, a man who needed to make a living to pay his rent and hold credit card debt and et cetera, it was an opportunity to do the thing I would I was falling in love with, to work with great people, to make money, and enjoy it. And anybody that had something to say contrary to that, I was suspicious of. And, you know, and that's what led me to be kind of isolated in Hollywood over time when I started to realize that the success that I was, I guess, enjoying did not bring a better class of friend necessarily. It brought a better class of enemy in the sense that it provoked envy in people. And it can be very lonely in that sense when all you're simply trying to do is fulfill the work order and your obligation as an artist, because people throughout your life, the positive ones, have reminded you not to lose sight of your goal, to be positive, and to stand up in your life and face life with courage and you know, and and and embrace your vocation with respect, with humility and dignity. And you look around and you see uh, I don't know, this kind of like Roman Colosseum kind of barbarism around you uh in terms of the psychic collective of artists who are so ravaged by their own insecurities or starving for opportunity that it makes them go mad. And I don't think it was any of their fault. Like I don't blame people, not angry with people. I feel sad. I've watched generations and generations because you know I've been doing this for a little while, come and go, cycling in and out of Hollywood. And people, I've seen people go crazy, I've seen people succumb to drug addiction, I've seen people die, I've seen people lose their minds, and they, you know, they they run home with their, you know, to like Dorothy from uh but a not so much of a glamorous version of the Wizard of Oz. They came to realize what was waiting for them at the end of the the end of the yellow brick road was their own death, you know, or insanity. And so a lot I saw a lot of unreal, unrealized or achieved dreams and the the the breaking of the mental compass in people's psyche, which turned them into this zombified, almost an aggressive, yeah, aggressive types that were not very kind in their observations. So you just learn to be very selective in who you spend time with because you could based on society's observation of winning, you know, you're making money, you're visible in entertainment, and I guess making a name for yourself, whatever that means, but you're succeeding based on society's standards, yet you feel like you're losing. You're winning, right? Based on that diagram, based on that diagram. But if you look around the at the people around you and the way they're talking to you and how people are dealing with you, you feel as if you're losing because you're not being necessarily complimented. You're being mocked, you're being made fun of, you're you're being measured, you're being evaluated everywhere you go. So there's a sense like, wow, man, that's I didn't see that part of this coming. But it didn't, it didn't phase me because I grew up in a world where there was a lot of psychic and physical attacks, man. So I just chalked it up to, okay, another opportunity for me to like practice psychic martial arts clearly in a realm that you know may compliment you with one hand and then disarm you and then go in and then slap you with the other, just when you just feel like, oh well, thank you. Pow, you get hit. And so I learned to keep my guard up psychically, not to be paranoid and be mean, but just to be uh ready in relationship to so many situations, whether it was auditioning, being on movie sets, dealing with agents, dealing with manager, all that and the business of show. And there was a I realized there was an element of it that was very vicious. And that's where your faith comes in, in the art form. That's where your faith in your in your in the creative art, the art itself. You have to let the art envelope you and not get caught up in all the vanity fare and the antics of of ego tripping that people are enveloped by. You have to overcome it and overcome yourself so you can do the work properly. And and and when your friend of yours or someone, a colleague of yours, says, Hey man, I got a job, you don't ask them, wait, well, well, what is it? How many weeks, you know, how much are they paying you, what kind of role it is. You don't whip out a measuring stick on them. I never did that. People did that with me constantly. Oh, what are you playing a convict? Oh, what are you gonna be? There was always this kind of like negative tone that would come back almost as a as an insult to negate or de-emphasize the victory. Because I want, you know, any actor knows this. When you go into audition, you're up against countless people for one role, you know, and the anxiety that can produce, man, is mind blocking mind-bending, right? So we all know this, which more of the reason I think to be sensitive to one another, but it's not the case to that others I found to be sensitive. I found them to be even more aggressive in that case. But I tried not to do that. I was it wasn't my inclination to rain on like Frank Sinatra's song, man. I don't want to rain, you know, rain on anybody's parade or or discount something when I know what the odds are. You know, I would simply say, man, congratulations, man. I'm happy for you. Or if they'd come back from a project, I would say they'd say, Hey, were they nice to you? Did you have a good time? That's it. You know, and if they want to elaborate on that subject in terms of the mathematics, that's their business. But I didn't ask them how much money. I remember times where I was watching TV shows that I was on with certain people, and there an argument would ensue simply because someone asked the question, well, how much did they pay him for that episode? And the other person would say, How dare you to ask a question? That's so inappropriate. So a lot of the time I wouldn't even get to watch the premiere of some of my TV shows because I was in the midst of an argument that had nothing to do with me. But those who were with me were arguing over how inappropriate it was to measure my accomplishment based on money, you know, or the platform, that kind of thing. So I I saw it wasn't just Hollywood, it was in other areas of life, personal, that people were looking at entertainment, not just for the sake of entertainment, but measuring the person based on their financials. You know, there's like your financial status suddenly is looked at in relationship to the platform. And then if you make enough money, then I guess they you're now suddenly anointed, you're okay. And the same person that's anointing you is also trying to figure out a way to confiscate the the the achievement. So it's like you gotta laugh, man. I guess my way right out the door and say, Have a nice day. You know, just get away from all these maniacs, man. And their and their fiery torches trying to take chase me out of town town like I'm the Frankenstein monster, man. So it's hysterical, man.

SPEAKER_02: 9:10

Very interesting, very interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 9:12

Yeah, it's you know, those are the jokes. Right, right. Yeah, it's like anything else. You know, guy talk to guys who've been overseas in combat. I have a lot of friends who've been in Iraq, Afghanistan, you know, they say that's you know that I've seen it tattooed on their bodies, you know, glory is fleeting, man. There's a reason they write that because even with when you do win, there's the gravity shift to reality of what you have to sacrifice for that victory and what you have to endure after the victory or during the victory. There's something else that comes with the blessing, you know, that you have to feel too. And that's why I think it's important to have strength of character. And some people that grow up a certain way are well fitted in this industry of show. Because I think if you're too sensitive, man, and your skin is too thin, you're gonna be like just a fucking, you're like like Grim on the track, you're gonna be roadkill, man. You know, he's standing up going, can't kill me, can't kill me. But you know, you know, five ten ten tons of steel going about 60, 70 miles an hour begs to differ, you know. And that's Hollywood, man. Hollywood's coming at you, you know, and you're boom, you know, and then you get back up again. Boom! You know, you're getting fired at boom, you just keep getting up and yell, you know, blah, and you just keep forging forward, man. And as long as you can still walk and talk and fight for your dinner, your paycheck, your moment in the sun, whatever the individual's motivation is uh to do the job, you know, or simply the love of the art form itself, whatever it is, you you let that drive you, and you keep your blinders on and keep your guard up, and you just do it.

SPEAKER_02: 10:55

You know, just do it. I definitely agree. I couldn't I could not have said it better. There's there's one more film I want to ask you about for I guess this this round of of interview, because I've very long list.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

This one's Yeah, I'm sorry I'm talking so much, man.

SPEAKER_02: 11:15

I'm so no no no, you you are fine. This is what I love about my show, is you know, to let my my guests kind of it's it's like a conversation, you know. See we're we're talking about you know your your career and stuff, but it's also you know, seeing where the conversation goes. I like I like to like to you know talk to people, you know. I yes, I like to hear stuff about the industry, but really just to to talk to a person and you know see where everything goes, I think is like the the fun part.

SPEAKER_00: 11:48

Yeah, I could agree more.

SPEAKER_02: 11:51

Awesome, awesome. This one's a little more recent, and I guess it's on the subject of great actors, classic actors, and that that was the mule. And I was wondering what was it like to to work with Eastwood and just your your experience on on that film.

SPEAKER_00: 12:12

Surreal is the word that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02: 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:15

At first it was just surreal. I couldn't accept that it was happening. I and I I dare say I'll speak for some of my colleagues in this that were in the sequences that we shared with Clint Eastwood, that they also probably were just as uh shocked that they were hired. You know, once you get over the shock, then you gotta do the job, right?

SPEAKER_01: 12:35

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 12:37

It's like jumping into a swimming pool, it's like cool, but then you start swimming around a little bit, you know, right, right. That's how it was with Clint. You know, we're all like in shock. And then once we started, you know, fleshing out the sequence and rehearsing, and things just fell into place. But I'll I'll I'll take you back to the genesis of it. I got a call from a manager that they were interested in me, so I went into my closet, which I I didn't, I wasn't in living in Hollywood at the time, LA, Los Angeles. And um, so I took my little you know device and I recorded the audition that they want, you know, the with the six pages they wanted me to, you know, to read, and I sent it to them. And Clanice would looked at it and he liked it. And so he gave me some notes, or they his people gave me some notes. Do it again, but just reposition the camera. He wanted wanted to see my my physical body, how I look, because I was I did a close-up. Um he wanted to see the same audition but in a wide on a wide angle. And so I did that, sent it to him, and the next thing I know, I got the call. They're gonna hire you, they want to hire you. I'm like, wow. And I didn't wasn't, you know, waiting, it wasn't a situation for so many of my colleagues who I talked to that were in the film who went on the audition and sat in the room or sat in the waiting area with other men waiting to go in because Clint Eastwood wasn't there, the casting director was there. And I didn't have the benefit, or maybe I did have the benefit of not being in that situation where I had to sit. I was able to be alone and really focus on what they required me to do for the audition, you know? And once I arrived to set and met some of the my my colleagues that I was gonna work with in the scene, and we got to know each other, things just fell into place. And I remember after one of the takes, Clint tapped me in the stomach, like a quick snap jab, and he said, good stuff, kid. And I thought, wow, I think I'm because I was concerned. We were all concerned, are we living up to you know the standard or what he he expects? And he said yes. And uh I I went off book a couple of times in one of the scenes, and I ad-libbed. And what I was so wonderful with working with Pleneswood is that he just went with me, he played jazz, man. He didn't stop the scene, he actually ad-lived along with me. And actually, that's this they kept it. The unscripted dialogue, some of the stuff that wasn't even on the page was used in the final cut. And I thought how how generous this man, how kind that he allowed me to do that and trust it enough, and it worked, and he complimented me, and so I just felt like wow, it was just you know, one of those kind of moments in your life where you you know feel like I guess maybe the way a mountain climber feels when they reach the peak of Mount Everest. You know, like wow, right, right. This man who's not just a man, he's uh a legacy. He's I've grown up watching all his films, and so once you get over that, you know, you gotta really get in there and and do the job and to be complimented by that man who I saw as a very humble, soft-spoken, respectful man. I remember when we broke for lunch, I saw somebody at the end of the line, and I realized it was Clinius with allowing the crew and all the actors to eat first, and he just sat stood there, unassuming with his hat on, his head down. Look, is that clear? Because you know, a lot of the time when you're on a Hollywood production and the movie stars there, they usually disappear into their trailer or kind of push, shuffled away by their security guards, and you can't go near them, right? He was so accessible. He sat down with his crew. I know he's worked with them for years, you know. So I've got this sense of this uh family that he had created with his crew and people that work with him on multiple projects. And so it felt very uh comfortable to be on his set with his people, and they were very nice to me.

SPEAKER_02: 16:39

That's awesome, and that that really just at least at least for me, and I'm sure a lot of my listeners that are of course huge Clint Eastwood fans, that that really kind of just puts like the icing on the cake, you know, to hear, you know, a story about literally a legend, a living legend. And again, you know, my dad, of course, got me into Eastwood stuff, you know, and I will I saw the mule in theaters, and I mean anything Clint Eastwood does, whether he's just directing, directing and acting in, you know, he's he's become one of those, you know, celebrity icons, whether it's in acting or just directing, anything he does, I I'm instantly I I will see it in theaters, I I will re-watch it. I I've I've been re-watching the mule on uh HBO.

SPEAKER_00: 17:44

Oh wow, cool.

SPEAKER_02: 17:45

And every every time it's on, it's a movie. I always turn to also his his newest one, Cry Macho. I've also been watching.

SPEAKER_00: 17:56

You know, he He's a force of nature, isn't he, Sam?

SPEAKER_02: 17:59

Yeah, yeah. Just just just to hear, you know, a literally a living experience with with you know a legend, and to hear that he's like just everything you kind of you know hope and and want him to be. Yeah, you know, is is very, very cool.

SPEAKER_00: 18:19

Yeah, and that one I had the courage to go into see it see in the theaters. Unless that's I actually mustered up the courage and I went to the theaters and watched it.

SPEAKER_02: 18:28

It's it's a fantastic film, you know, and and you know, again, there's there's a couple stars in there. I'm a big, big fan of, of course, Garcia.

SPEAKER_00: 18:38

Yeah, I Andy's something else. He I felt like he was he I went up to him and he shook his my hand. He says, Hi, I'm Andy Garcia. I said, It's an honor to meet you, sir. And he he did this thing with his hand on my hand, and then I was getting into the elevator to go to my room, and he was getting the elevator or going past the elevator, and I he said something to me, and I said something, and he put his hand around the side of my head the way a rel, you know, a relative would caress your head who has an affection for you. Uh he said, I'll see, I'll see you later. I said, Yes, sir, I will. And he I think he appreciated that I because I'm, you know, I got this military background. So people who I respect are older than me, even some young men, people younger than me, I call them sir, when they're working jobs clearly that I know are laborious and maybe tedious. And I try to I I have to give them respect because I get it. And so I think Andy appreciated appreciated that I was speaking to him almost like he was a commanding officer in the military because that's how I perceived him, you know. And he responded. Sometimes you do that and they respond with arrogance. They're like, What are you doing? But he saw me. Yeah, he actually saw me. I could tell he felt me. And then he put his hand and the way he caressed my head felt like it's somebody I knew my whole life. He recognized the old school respect and he gave it right back to me. Like I was a relative, man, that he cared about. And I never forget that. I will never forget the way he touched me and how how I knew he meant it. He wasn't pretending, he really meant it. And it meant a lot to him that I saw him as well, and I gave him that respect. Because there's a lot of young people, I'm sad to say, they're in the movie industry now that are young teeny boppers that may not even know or care about some of these iconic actors who have moved the mountains with their ability. They don't seem to do their research or know about the older films.

SPEAKER_02: 20:36

And uh I I know I just just talked about this subject with um with Peter Dobson in the interview.

SPEAKER_00: 20:44

Oh, Peter, yeah. Yeah, Peter, I love Peter.

SPEAKER_02: 20:46

Um and we're he was telling me about he was on uh a film set, and he said to I think it was the casting director, this is very remnant of Dog Day Afternoon. And she said, What's that? You know, and you know, there's there was a job I was working at a few years ago, and I was like the oldest one working there, and it was like right around the time the newest, the the Blade Runner sequel came out. And for me, you know, Blade Runner, the original, is probably my number one favorite sci-fi movie of all time. And they were basically saying that the fact that it was like, you know, two and a half hours long, and they went to see it in the theaters, and the kid basically fell asleep, like, you know, be like before like half before the movie was like halfway over, you know. And it's the fact that we have, like you said, this this new generation that I mean, and this kid literally said he won't watch anything past. Or I mean before 1980. So it's like you have this new generation that you know is growing up in the age of you know comic book movies and everything, and doesn't necessarily understand that there's this whole you know plethora of of film history and you know the the reason you know certain films are the way they are and where the inspiration came from. I mean, you know, German expressionism. I mean, that's why Tim Burton is so good at at doing you know what he does, you know, and you have all this this classic film history, and you know, Pacino is is up there, but like, you know, he has all these awesome movies, De Niro. I mean, I just I was watching Mean Streets last night, you know, and and you know, talk about a classic, you know, film. And if if you look at Mean Streets compared to you know, Taxi Driver and then Raging Bull, and then Up to Goodfellas and Casino and and all that, you know, you can you can clearly tell it's it's Scorsese like you know testing the grounds, you know, for you know what what would you know become you know his signature style, you know, of of directing. And there's just so many good movies out there, and you know, the fact that they they come from a time, you know, pre what we're living in now, you know, doesn't mean you shouldn't like diss those movies. That really means you should explore and investigate those movies even more, because the movies that a lot of the movies that they're making today, you know, aren't they just not classics, and they they will not stand the test of time. And I feel like a lot of the movies that we I mean, some some there are movies that we're making now that will stand a test of time, but I think more so we've kind of steered away from you know making making classic cinema versus you know kind of like eye candy in in a sense, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 24:23

Yeah, agreed. There's a lot of that, yeah. I think my one of my friends, my uh filmmaker friend of mine calls that the 70%. That's the 70% he calls it. And then there's the 30% that wants to watch stories that take their time developing the characters and you know, don't rush through the editorial, they're not quick cuts, they develop the story, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 24:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 24:49

It's not a throw ride. You have to really pay attention and get involved. It requires that you pay attention. And not everybody wants to do that. People just want the throw ride, they want to have their minds blown. Like you said, they want the visual aesthetic to uh masturbate their consciousness to a point where they can get off and you know, just disappear into these the visual stimuli and the sound and all that. Right. And so, in that sense, that becomes the more important aspect of manipulating audiences and cueing them and training them and programming them on how to watch product. It's almost like a form of brainwashing, it's kind of scary in a way.

SPEAKER_02: 25:29

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00: 25:30

It's a form of fascism, right? It doesn't seem like fascism because you don't have a guy with a mustache screaming in German at you, right? But it's it's hidden behind something. It's pretty you know, something that the avatar, the representative, is set sent in front that looks nothing like that. But the suggestion is that you had better keep up with this, you had better get with the program, you had better keep pace with this. And uh, I think Woody Allen said it in one of his movies, I think it was Annie Hall, he said that the audiences are systematically uh they don't even know it's good because his friend was on a successful TV show in Hollywood, and Woody Allen said he was getting nauseous from watching the dailies, and he heard the laugh track that his actor friend was putting in there. He goes, those are fake laughs. He goes, Yeah, but my show's a hit. He goes, Listen, and he made the comment about that audiences don't even know it's good anymore. They're you know systematically having their standards lowered year after year, you know, and I never forgot that comment that he made in his movie about and this was in the 70s, right?

SPEAKER_01: 26:32

He was recognized. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 26:33

I don't think he was just, you know, it was some vicarious throw. I think he was very specific, and it was, you know, a statement he wanted to make that was was pointing to the responsibility that needed to be addressed. You know, where are we going? What are we doing? What are you guys doing? Well, you know, and even Edward Norton and when he communicated to Michael Keaton's character and Birdman, you know, that genocide that you guys are committing out there in Hollywood, you know, he accused him of being a fraud. And they got into that argument about, you know, while you're out there doing, you know, that committing that genocide, I'll be here on the stage, you know, doing whatever. And so there's this argument going back and forth, you know, and I thought that was was so brilliant in that film, Michael Keaton, and then it would mortgage that they, you know, that it was written in such a way to you know show the struggle that we face in that in that in that in that area with you know sensationalized entertainment as opposed to substantial spirited entertainment that can challenge the people, inspire them, and maybe they come away more intelligent, not dumbing them down with sound and visuals and masturbating fantasies that they have about escaping to other worlds or killing violent movies that glorify this video game warfare that seems to bear no consequence. When it really does, ask any combat that'll tell you, it doesn't really go down like that, man. Right. You don't get shot multiple times and get back up again. It doesn't work like that. So they're they're communicating there, I feel at times being very irresponsible with what they're communicating in the uh the violence because it's not real, it may seem realistic because they've gotten so good with the the science of special effects that it seems like it could happen, but it doesn't. It's an illusion, it's not real, it's a magic act. And the problem is young people look at it and they think it does function that way, it does not. The nervous system shuts down when certain things happen to the body. There's certain basic things that happen that their films defy the physics of that reality, but make it seem possible because they're so good at constructing that you know, that the technical magic act. And it's dangerous, I think, when you get carried away with that. And I don't want to get into anything political. I don't know if the chicken, you know, what came first, the chicken or the egg. I don't know if you can, you know, now suddenly segue into what's happening socially in America or the violence. I don't know if one necessarily speaks to the other. Who knows? You know, there's been violence throughout history, from the Greeks beyond, and you know, it's been violence has been with us, it seemed, for as long as a man has figured out how to pick up a bone and hit another man over the head for water.

SPEAKER_03: 29:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 29:25

So who knows? But I'm just saying that we you're talking about you raised the point of people, maybe uh how I get what I get from what you're saying is how audiences have become desensitized. And if that's the case, then the producers that create product have to keep upping the stakes. Well, we've blown their minds with this, but we got to find new and improved ways to spike the Kool-Aid or put more concentrated THC in the drug to really blow. We've blown their minds, but we gotta keep blowing their minds, and they're getting bored, so we got to figure out a new way to attack the subject, but really you know, but but increase the dosage, you know. So I don't know if we're creating audience members or addicts.

SPEAKER_02: 30:13

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's interesting. I I don't like to get too political like like either, especially on my show. I like to keep it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:24

I don't know what the heck is going on.

SPEAKER_02: 30:27

But it it it is a very like interesting subject when you think about it. Yeah. I mean, what it's it's it's exactly right, the chicken or the egg, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 30:39

I'll just stick to the virtue of the craft. I always go back to the craft. Well, Robert, why are you doing this? Or why did you make your own film? Because I want to I wanted to see if in fact the claims about me are true, not just by others, but to myself. I am I in fact an artist? Or am I just getting paid to go mad in front of the camera? You know? Some may would consider that the characters that I've portrayed or have been asked to portray by others who've been written for me may not demonstrate uh a lot of depth. Uh others would say you take something that has no depth and you give it depth. How do you do that, Robert? Well, I was trained to do that. It all depends on who you talk to, but I think it's still there's a responsibility to the art form itself. Forget about the politics, forget about this stuff that we just mentioned. But I think at the end of the day, for me and any, I think artists that is honest with themselves that am I creating art or pornography? What am I doing? You know, and if I'm not, if I'm not satisfied or I don't feel like I'm being true to that, what can I do to change it? What can I do? Can I write something? Can I collaborate with others that feel the same way and make something that speaks to the art form, that does it some justice? It may not necessarily speak to millions of people, but at least is honest in what it communicates, you know, and entertains at the same time because you gotta you have to be able to entertain, you can entertain and be honest and tell a story that I would say Scorsese's you mentioned Scossese, I think he was fascinated. I don't I don't know the man, so I can't speak for him, but I I I feel my instinct is that he has an affection for a certain culture of this gangster culture. I mean, he's he's shown himself to be incredibly dynamic and he can do anything, right? Right, Mean Street. You mentioned movies like Mean Street, Taxi Driver, Goodfellas in this casino. There seems to be an affection for this gangster culture, man. And he, no better, no one better than him, has communicated the brilliance of that and the degradation of that world, and at times taking the glamour away from it. He's he's presented it to you in a very realistic way, to the point where you can almost romanticize the characters until you can't, because he shows you something so horrific, you go, whoa, this is not there's nothing to celebrate about this. This is this is disturbing to watch this guy be beat to death, you know, and thrown in a grave. It's horri horrific, you know. Right. Um, so I think his ability to communicate it honestly is no one has done better in that sense. So my point is, I feel like he may have had an affection early on for a type of storytelling and characters that he grew up with that he wanted to communicate that truth for that period of time until he graduated into other types of movie making, right? And so I feel that's any artist, they say, well, write about what you know, right? So I think if that's if you have a subject matter, and I'm speaking to the audience that wants to create and is creating, I would suggest, I know I haven't been asked this, but I would suggest stick to what you know and be on, you know, and in that sense, if you can build off of that platform and bring others that understand that vision and share it with you, then you potentially can embark on a very artistic and entertaining endeavor that may change people's lives at best, or at the very least, entertain them for an hour and a half, you know, because you're coming from a place that's real, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 34:21

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 34:22

I think it's important to come from a place that's real. I think Scosesi came from a very real place. I think he did his research, he was living the research. I think he grew up in Little Italy, you know, he lived in Little Italy.

SPEAKER_03: 34:33

Yeah, I know that world.

SPEAKER_00: 34:34

I grew up in New York City. I remember the mafia was very Italian mafia, he was very powerful in those days. I'm sure he rubbed elbows at people, or maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know. But I'm sure he was not afraid to dig deep because it shows in his work. He authenticates it with such realism, man. You know, in that sense, gives you an education about the underworld, you know, and the Italian mafia phenomenon uh in a way that no one has been able to match, in my opinion. So it's the same thing. So you find a subject matter. Like look at Woody Allen, he champions the neurosis, right? He makes you laugh over these neurotic quirks and his, you know, his fascination or fear of death. And he makes it funny, you know. He you know there's a pattern with some of these filmmakers in the way they write things that you feel may be kind of close to home or they may deny it. Who knows? But I think it's important to start from an honest place, marry it to your creative ability, and bring other people on board that can help accentuate that so that the experience is authentic. It's not contrived, it's coming from a real place, you know. And then, you know, ideally, you you know, you can also, you know, you want to entertain people too. So I think that's important to remember that there's certain formulas that have to run tandem with that truth that make the audience want to see what's going to happen next. There's definitely a a formula that doesn't have to diminish the artistic aspect of the of the of the of the piece, you know, that can work with it. It's just real it that's the trick, man, which is you know, Bert, I remember Bert Lancaster and Kirk Douglas had an argument about this. There was an interview with them. And Kirk Douglas said, it's not our responsibility to consider the social significance of what we communicate in these films. We're just there to entertain. And Bert Lancaster said, No, I disagree. It is our responsibility as artists and celebrities or performers to communicate a message that speaks to the people that can change lives. So they were arguing. One was saying, no, we're just entertainers, we're not here, we're not messiahs, we're not prophets. And Bert Lancaster's take on it was very different. He saw a responsibility not just to entertain, but to be true in the world.

SPEAKER_02: 36:50

Right. Yeah, very interesting. I I have two closer questions for you. I know we've been talking about movies and everything. I'm curious to know what are just some of your favorite films, just in general, and then if you had any other upcoming projects to promote.

SPEAKER_00: 37:11

Okay. Three films come to mind. It could simply be coming of age, but they were also, in my opinion, they were great films. American Graffiti.

SPEAKER_02: 37:22

Great movie.

SPEAKER_00: 37:23

The Exorcist, William Freaking, big William Freakin fan, and The Poseidon Adventure, where three uh with you know, starring Gene Hackman, Ernest. Star Studded Cast won many awards. I when I think Academy Awards meant something, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 37:38

Right, right. No, no, you're right. You're right.

SPEAKER_00: 37:44

Um, but uh so yeah, so the Poseidon venture to me was a rare, one of these rare situations where you combine the action element. Irvin Allen was able to combine the action with this religious or seemingly spiritual allegory of the ship going upside down and this priest, Gene Hackman, having to lead the small group of people through the sh bowels of the ship to get to the top, which was actually the bottom.

unknown: 38:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 38:11

Everybody who was on top commanding the ship was underneath now. And to me, I see the movie as a spiritual allegory for mankind, like this huge event, you know, a comet or the uh a tsunami, a tidal wave hits humanity and it flips it upside down. And you have the messianic prophet who's telling the people, look, if we stay here, we're gonna die, we're gonna sink deeper and deeper into the ocean. If you want to get out and survive, you have to fight your way up and out. And the argument was that no, we have to sit here and wait till help arrives. This man knows nothing of the workings of the ship, you know, and argued, and Gene Hackham called him a pompous ass and said, You you guys are gonna the water's gonna be keep filling up into the ship and you're gonna sink deeper and deeper, which to me is like mankind falling into Dante's inferno.

SPEAKER_02: 38:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 38:58

And there's an opportunity to fight your way up out of, you know, like Milton said, long as the way and out of hell leads up to light. So we got to fight our way to get out. And so I thought the movie was profound in its ability to communicate the literature in a way that wasn't preachy. But if you look real closely and have any kind of background in theology, you understand that the writers were definitely cleverly in you know, suggesting these, these, this moral dynamic and spiritual dynamic. And then American Maffiti, the music alone was enough to hook me. The cars were like each car, you know, John Milner and his deuce coupe, you know, the yellow deuce coupe. Chevy, you know, uh it's seeming a time of innocence, you know, in America, uh, you know, right you know, when before the that tsunami and you know, Los Angeles became a kind of bizarre place in the 70s after the 60s, you know, revolution uh revolution. But right prior to that, because I think that movie, because the movie's, I think, tagline is where were you in 62? So it speaks to a time of innocence, maybe that never even existed, who knows? Where America seemed to have a vitality in the way that it communicated itself, you know, visually. And then Lucas did a brilliant job with the sound design and the color scheme and this make-believe world that almost seemed real. And you wanted to get you wanted to go to that place and ride up and down the strip in those cars and hang out with the guys and talk to the girls and listen to these classic, this classic duo-op music, man. That's perennial. And then The Exorcist, I mean, like, I don't know, man. William Freakin's ability to conjure the devil in a way so realistically, because the movie moves functions more like a drama, I think, than it does a movie that's classified as horror. And William and Alan Berson's performance, Linda Blair, Max von Siddao, the young priest of all the actors in this film were brilliant. And the way it was put together, and even I think Alan Burston was interviewed about that film and said that some bizarre things happened when they were making that film, that there were these tragic deaths throughout the production, and she wondered if they were conjuring something, you know, uh that might have been a little bit dangerous in terms of the occult. And so I was always fascinated by her story and how the movie impacted my life, and so many people who had never seen anything like that in the 70s. And, you know, it's a if you look on YouTube, you can see videos of people actually being escorted out of the theater because they were vomiting, having panic attacks, anxiety attacks because you know, I think America, 1970s, America, and its social conscience and its innocence was a little bit more on its sleeve, more. It wasn't because I don't think we were so desensitized yet. And to witness something as bizarre as the Ectrosis is so extreme. This idea of innocence being raped and captured by evil was so well orchestrated. And even with the limitations of the physics of makeup and science, they still did incredible, incredible practical effects, man. To this day, when I look at them and I consider the performances married to the effect, it's still unsettling to watch, I think. If you look at it mechanically and you don't consider the spiritual element that's moving through the movie, then you'll discount it as a substandard, you know, schlocky special effects. And but I don't look at it that way. And so that movie changed my life in that regard. And yeah, so those three films, definitely.

SPEAKER_02: 42:48

Awesome, awesome. And if you had any other upcoming projects to promote, I'm gonna be selfish.

SPEAKER_00: 42:57

Um I have my own project that I wrote, directed, and played the lead in called American Trash. It's a social commentary about where we are as a culture, specifically in the geography of Los Angeles, the apathy that seems to be the rination of our society, the pollution that is destroying the natural habitat, and the issue of PTSD that men deal with when they come back from the war. I created several pull-through lines in my story titled America Trash, which is an attempt to bring the 1960s spirit into the 21st century and introduce the possibility that even with all this conflict going on, that people can still come together in a community of love and care for somebody who's struggling with loss or mental illness and love one another, help each other through a very challenging time.

SPEAKER_02: 43:59

I think that's very

SPEAKER_00: 44:00

powerful that's that's a very an a awesome thing to to do so that's you know I I I I I'm in post-production now and my editor Anthony Espina is very talented. He's scoring the film, editing it. I've got a colorist so long story short we're in post-production. Hopefully at some point next year, you know I'll it'll find its home proper distribution platform and I can share my opus with people who maybe might find the story engaging and entertaining. Because I needed to it had to come out, you know definitely. I needed to just like you were talking earlier about your collaboration it just it bubbles up on you after a while and you're just like I've got to and it after a while you don't even have to write how did you write this I didn't write it. It's been living with it's been in it's been in me for years. It's you know I just needed to finally muster up the conviction to write to to sit down and focus and it just wrote itself you know exactly sitting in my car one day looking out at the PCH looking out at the Pacific Ocean and enjoying this incredible view and I watched this family get in their very expensive SUV and they were throwing trash on the ground after they'd wiped their wiped their feet off and I remember thinking what would happen if some flower childs you know from the 1960s showed up and said hey excuse me guys would you mind picking up your trash before you leave what would happen how would the father the mother how would the how would that those kids respond to this woman's affection for Mother Earth and her being appalled in a polite way that they were so desensitized that they were basically divorcing themselves from the very thing that they are that they came from earth they earth you know we're all from earth right we're all been you know we've been born into families but we are come out of the earth the way a flower comes out of you know a plant comes out of the ground we also have been sprouted from the earth right so this idea that we can divorce ourselves just ask the American Indians that we as so-called you know modern man can divorce himself by superimposing a technological matrix over the real world is a fallacy and it's destroying us man and so I wanted to create an archetype in a female that would communicate the glory or the love of the planet itself and remind people in a very polite loving you know considerate way hey man wake up like we have to swim in that water let's stop polluting our well springs let's stop cutting our trees down let's stop destroying the very home that we live in why are we doing this? So I raised the question you know in a in a sort of controversial way. I won't tell you what that is right now but I needed you know there has to be an element I won't call it a gimmick I would say there has to be a controversial element to move it along because these days you have to know your audience right as my activities used to say to me and my managers to say to me so there are certain things I had to conjure to get and drive the point home and even if they don't understand the point they're looking at the person that's communicating the point because of what they think that person represents an infamy you know right and I I'm no strangers to infamy because I'm what the bad guy right according to certain observations I am the outlaw right I'm the the monster I'm the devil I'm you know the guy that comes to do a killing you know so or be killed or you know usually situations of violence right and it's cool man like I'm I'm not tripping on it. I I think it's fun it's not you know it's it is what it is. So I think if I'm going to utilize the very exploits that have been used to put me in front of the people why not take that formula and utilize it in my own way you know and marry it to something that they have never conceived of writing for me.

SPEAKER_02: 47:59

I'll write it myself you know I think that's awesome and I I agree with all the points that you know you brought up that are in are in the film I'm I'm very excited to check it out as soon as it's released. Absolutely I mean again you know I'm a huge fan I we we we we we we only touched the uh the tip of of the iceberg you know with with every everything that I I want to talk to you about so yeah forgive me if I didn't allow you enough time to no no no no that this this has been exactly what I was hoping for we in fact better than what I was hoping for so it's it just just leaves you know more room for you know round two round two three four five you know glad to hear that cool absolutely and I just want to let you know I did uh send you a friend request oh on Facebook okay so I I you know I know you're you're pretty pretty busy on there you're not that busy man it's Sunday i mean that's it's it's it's just it's it's just push pushing a button that's all it is it's not that hard okay okay thank you for letting me know so I'll I'll look and then I'll press the button and we're good to go. Awesome awesome well Rob it it has been a pleasure talking with you thank you so I I honestly cannot wait to to do round two i'll have a little bit of an issue with editing right now trying to get it resolved with hiring some more editors as soon as it's posted and I'll send you a link. Thank you sir appreciate that it's it's just been a pleasure talking with you. It's the same here Matt I you know you know same here make you happen you make me happen it's you know it's exactly exactly yeah I get it yeah awesome awesome have a have a great rest of your weekend happy holidays have a good Thanksgiving and I look forward to talking with you soon you as well brother awesome thank you so much what's up all my fishes in the sea thanks again for tuning in and for being a subscriber your continued support means a lot I want to let all my guppies in the sea know you can now purchase custom fishbowl merch by DMing me Samfish on Instagram at thefishbull88 or on Facebook at the fishbowl get hooked on yours today we have custom t-shirts mugs pens handbags hats beanies hoodies everything to make you the coolest looking fish in the sea and if that's not enough I am now accepting early access subscribers on my BuzzFrout website that's right you can subscribe for early access to the Fish Fool's content as well as I am accepting donations to help keep the show going. Again your support means the most it's the most important fishes in the sea to keep the unit going. Thanks again y'all and keep tuning in and let's all keep swimming upstream