Eric Miller Part 1: "Where Does Creativity Come From?"

The Fisch Bowl's casual conversation with screenwriter Eric Miller goes swimmingly as we discuss his known work including Swamp Shark and Ice Spiders, the psychology of how writers are able to create their stories, archival footage in film, and favorite films, TV shows, and works from other writers. Dive in and listen to what Miller had to say!

Transcript

Welcome And Swamp Shark Stories

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Attention, all you fishes in the sea.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Welcome to the fishbowl.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Eric Miller on the fish pole. Welcome. Thank you. Glad to be here. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for taking the time to swim in the bowl with me.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

As it were. Yeah. Hopefully there's no saltwater sharkfish or anything in here.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Well, uh, on the subject of sharks and everything, one of the films you've worked on that I'm a big fan of because I love B-grade, C grade films, Swamp Shark.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Yes, yeah, I love it. I was really lucky to have got to work on that, both writing it and get to do production on it too. It was, I won't say it was easy and it was hotter than hell. It's when you watch the movie, it's way hotter than it actually looks. But I guess Louisiana for uh about four months out of the year can just be scorching and humid. But no, it was great. It was a great experience all the way around. And it's uh and it's such a fun movie. I think it's the one out of all the ones people talk about that I've worked on and uh uh in various capacities, that's the one that doesn't get as much attention, but I think should because it's just great. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I mean, it's it's I love the the campy, you know, you know, creature feature type monster films. It's one of my favorite genres going back to the 80s that really like brought it back in a prominent way. And even in the 90s, you had like a significant amount of like like you know, monster movies were like a big, the big theme.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah, and it's kind of a it's a little bit of a lost art now, but and and I grew up cut cutting teeth on them too. That was the heyday and getting to watch those when my uh watching films, but also just growing up on the awesome 50s, 60s, and 70s monster movies too. And it's that I it's funny how it's almost I want to call it a subset of horror, but it's actually its own genre, like it's not even a subset, the hell with it. Like horror's horror, and and yes, we've got all the different types of genre, psychological, supernatural, slasher, whatever. But I think we should just put monster movies on their own pedestal and just walk away from it and leave it up there right in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I I completely agree, and and monster movies are really I think my my favorite genre. I mean, because you can throw like predator and alien in there, they're they're technically movie monsters, and I've heard many different celebrities, comedians, people basically say watching the first predator is like a rite of passage into manhood.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

So it's so iconic. I I it's funny, I always leave that off of my top 10 movie list, and I like wait a minute, and when somebody brings it up, it's like, how can I leave that off? It's just so iconic. And you know what it really drills down into, though, one of the things that people bring up over and over the story is great, the execution's great, the filmmaking, but it's about the characters. Exactly. Wow, what and and for a bunch of tough guys, the the great, the great diversity of the tough guys in that. Each one has their own style and movement. And obviously, everybody, it must have been like testosterone hell on set. I mean, when you're trying to when you're trying to stand up to Arnold, are you kidding me? But every single one of them holds they hold their own, even against Arnold and against everybody else. And and I say Arnold and Jesse Ventura at his height, yeah. Arnold's Arnold in some ways.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

So I mean, I'm I'm like uh Arnold Stallone nut. My my dad let me watch Total Recall when I was five years old. That was my my first introduction to like Schwarzenegger, and out of his entire filmography, I mean, obviously there's Conan, obviously there's Terminator, but like I have to kind of say those two franchises are, in my opinion, just givens with like the popularity. If you want to like separate, you know, the the the franchise star, you know, theme to his actual, you know, performance, concept, idea, and everything. Obviously, Terminator is big, but I would have to say it's Predator and Total Recall.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Total Recall is such an interesting movie, it's so smart, and uh it it obviously but you know, just such a great script and great source material. But there's and you probably know this, but it's one of the great what-ifs in Hollywood. I think it was supposed to be Richard Dreyfus or someone like him that was supposed to play the part, the everyman. And if you can imagine that, it would be the same movie, but totally different. Like, okay, we get that is Arnold a superhero or not? Of course he is. Look at the guy, but they do a very good job of selling the fact that he's just a you know a muscular mind worker or whatever. But if you could imagine that movie with uh Dreyfus or Dreyfus himself or someone like him, the true everyman that wasn't that iconic Schwarzenegger, I don't think the movie would be as much fun. It would be in a different category, it would be psychological science fiction, and even you know, maybe later day you could put somebody like a make it like the born identity or something like that. But in that time and in that era, I think just that big techno-collar B Schwarzenegger all over it is just kind of awesome.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Exactly. And I I just have to say, like, seeing a film like like that that's like that colorful, that graphic, especially violently graphic, you know, at that age, it you know, I I don't know like if I if I'm just one of those special people that loves film and is impacted by film in that way, but it left such a impact on in like my mind that you know I I needed to absorb as much, you know, of like what I was like, well, if this is if this is age five, like what else is out there?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Well, like exactly and with all that, it's smart. There's actually a real story and a real script and a brain twist at the end, and that's that's the real beauty of it, too. That it doesn't, I think that's why a lot of B movies get short shrifts sometimes, that it can just be, oh, it's just a dumb monster movie. No, it's actually a wickedly smart monster movie or or whatever it is. So B movies can actually they can hold their own. I mean, it may

Monster Movies As Their Own Genre

SPEAKER_00 6:10

not be a probably a Jacob's ladder or something, or on the level of a shining with psychological manipulation or anything, but it's definitely up there. It's definitely in that in that pantheon.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

And and I think it's even crazier, you know, going like real out there, you know, alien talk and what's kind of going on now with you know what they're doing with Mars and stuff, but it would be pretty amazing if like that film prophesies, you know, what stuff they stuff they find on on Mars and everything when they actually the government decides to actually release, you know, what what they what they've known all these years, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

But it's you know it's probably yeah, and it it's interesting one of the looks that how uh they've treated Mars over the years and different from John Carter of Mars, which I again that's another one I always l leave off my list. But Edgar Rice Burroughs is such an amazing writer, and I think a lot of people just see Tarzan and John Carter, if they even know the references, they just see kind of cartoonish B-movie icons. But those are deep, dark, and weird stories. There's a lot of stuff going on in there. And you know, Burroughs was I'm not a scholar on him by any chance, but wow, just the depths and the angles and the twists, but the way he did, you know, Mars, because obviously simplistic look before we could really get a good look with great satellites. Oh, there's canals on Mars and all that kind of stuff, which was in all kinds of literature, and and uh Orson Wells and everyone and War of the Worlds and all that. But I love the different takes on Mars when we get there, and maybe maybe it'll be that would be the cool one to be like total recall to be that way.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Right, right. I mean, uh hopefully not with you know the the government of Mars withholding air air prices and everything. Well, but which is where we might be heading, but yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

It's uh yeah, are we getting there now? Uh that's the same, and that was echoed in the expanse, of course. You know, one of the many subplots in the expanse and uh and all those great terrific and the terrific books and the show. So it's like anytime you know, that control over a precious commodity, and when your commodity happens to be air, that kind of puts a whole new twist on everything.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Exactly. And and it came from uh one of the short stories by the brilliant uh late. I I I I wouldn't just call him an author, I would call him dare I say prophet philosopher, Philip K. Dick, you know, because Blade Runner, you know, Screamer is another under really underrated nine. Love Screamer, yeah. You know, sci-fi horror-esque flick, one of my favorites with Peter Weller, uh, and then also taking place unknowingly at the in something that was like that's big now with having everything being like connected with you know Marvel and DC and even like the the Monsterverse stuff that they're trying to do now. In my opinion, not the best way, because I I want to see like monster movies, not everything with like yeah, having to have like a social commentary like subtext or something, you know. I want to see just like leave all that stuff out and just make you know a movie that doesn't have to, you know, have anything tied to it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, pontificate or whatever. Yeah, I just I just I tend to gloss over those things if I can. I mean, I may not agree with everything on every you know, every statement, but also if a movie's just fun, it's fun. I mean, you can look at you can look at you can look at Avatar, the Avatar series, as being some of the greatest pro-environment movies ever and anti-mil I mean anti-military, I guess in a way, but anti-government control, like we're talking about. But at the same time, they're just big, rollicking, amazing, big science fiction, and on the on the best way. So, and again, if you get the message out of it, good for you. If you don't, whatever, just watch the movie. That's how I kind of take it. Right, right, right. I agree. It's uh Philip, Philip K. Dick, philosopher, absolutely philosopher. Interesting time that with him and guys like Bradbury and Matheson, and just like you know, clutches of people that created like so much stuff. And and there's been there's been groups like that throughout history, of course, in the writing world and the screenwriting and filmmaking world, but it seems like that was a really prolific. I mean, look at look, Matheson's the same way. Like, is there anything that he wrote that didn't turn into a terrific project or film? And and Dick's a little,

Predator And Total Recall Characters

SPEAKER_00 10:20

like you said, a little bit more, I guess you'd say, intellectual, maybe and more existential in so many ways, but like wow, mind-bending.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

And and his writing style is like it's it's very like it throws you right into you know whatever world he's he's writing about. And and the crazy thing, like I've heard a lot of conspiracy theory stuff about him where they they I mean they know about like this this like it's some type of like it's not exactly a meteor or an asteroid or anything, but it's like some type of dark rock or something that's stationed in a stationary position outside it in the space. And the CIA, you know, people have known about this, but there's like theories that it's like basically you know a uh like transmitting to whatever you know bigger, you know, intergalactic, whatever, you know, alien race or whatever is like watching us in real time.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Right, or like an or as a sentinel or a monolith like 2001, exactly exactly, exactly, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

And and and it's it's said supposedly these these like you know, people in expert like alien stuff have said that certain people have been like like it's transmitted like because it it if you like read Philip K. Dick's you know, like his his short stories and even his like you know full-length stories, it's very like it would make sense if it's like being something is being like beamed, you know, and and he's like just you know typing away. And I've heard stories about how like he was very into psychedelics with like acid and stuff, and he would make go on acid trips and you know just go on a writing binge, and the same thing with what is it, Frank Herbert, who who wrote the Dune series, which also you know could be you know something very futuristic or very ancient, you know, whatever, whatever side you know you want to, you know, look at it.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Well, it's it's interesting. You say I haven't heard of that one, and it's I haven't even thought of that, but I know there's uh that's a common uh uh trope in writing, is well, like where do you get your ideas from? But the question of where does uh like does it how does it come into you? And people have said everything from uh asking the question, are we piercing the veil of another dimension psychically somehow, and we're just simply replicating things that's on the other side and telling the story? Is it a signal coming in? I know I think it was Robert E. Howard said at one point that he either literally or figuratively, I think more figuratively, felt like Conan was standing behind him, telling him the stories, maybe not telling him exactly what to write. And I think that's uh like you say, and and who knows what the the doors of perception, Alvis Husley Huxley. That's one of the big questions is are we opening a door? Is that all in our mind? Is it are we going someplace else? Same thing with dreams. Are dreams trans, are they literally internal or are they transporting us to another place? Nobody really knows the answer, and we may never know the answer, but it's fascinating to say that. And like, where does where does creativity come from? And that happened to me one time when I was writing a screenplay that I usually meticulously get an idea and I think about it for years and years, and then I'll write a treatment and I'll slowly develop it and uh kind of takes forever, and eventually I kind of go, oh, and I'll sit down and start writing. But it's it's a very detailed process that I do. And this particular screenplay, I was out hiking and I'd had the very, very basic core of the idea a few years before, but nothing more than that, just the basic setup. And from one step to the next, the idea, the first five, six pages went pop in my head. And I literally remember stopping the next step and going, oh, wow. And I could literally see the first five pages. And I did some voice to text on the phone. By the time the signal got back, I got home. I sat down that night and wrote that. And almost for every day for probably uh, I don't know, for 26, 27 days, I wrote five or six pages. And that end result is about, I don't know, 20 or I'm sorry, 95, 98% of what the original thing was that just came into me. Never happened to me before, never happened again. I mean, I wonder, is that how Stephen King does it? He gets up every day and sits there and writes. You know, I I think for most writers that I know, it's a more laborious work process because writing isn't easy, but that one was actually fun because it was kind of like I'm watching the next chapter. I didn't know what the next chapter was gonna be. And I'm like, oh, I'm I'm conduiting something. And obviously, I think it was my subconscious working that I'd been cooking on the story for a while and a lot of different references and homages and things that came in. But it's like still, it was just like that was fun. That was a ride. And and and again, who knows what the answer to that is? Are we ever gonna find out? I don't know. Maybe the rocks beaming something. I wish it would beam me uh the next number one bestseller. Exactly. New York Times, please tell. I'm I got my antenna up, I'm wide open. My chips are active.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

What uh what's what script did that end up being?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Uh it's it's called Haunted Object Transportation. It's not it's it hasn't been made, nobody's picked it up. So, and I don't know if it will, it'll wind up being a you know, a hundred million dollar movie. And it's essentially, if you know William Friedkin's Sorcerer, which was based on the French of fear book and movie. Uh in mine, I basically take a put a real active character haunted house on the back of a truck being transported through the American Southwest through through prop mastinations, instead of a bunch of dynamite, which is the plot set up in uh sorcerer. So, but the idea was as I'm sitting here thinking, what can be the most dangerous thing that I could think of to transport on the back of a truck? And in that movie, dynamite is you know, the old sweaty dynamite across war-torn South America to put out a uh oil fire, is very real. They hit a bump and the whole thing blows up. But in my world, I just went with an anthropomorphized haunted house that's real, laughs like Vincent Price, has teeth, has fangs, can drive you insane and kill you, and suddenly it's on the back of the truck and it's a road. It's I I basically make the haunted house movie a road trip. Awesome. That's very cool. I love that. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It's one of my favorite things that I've ever written. Yeah, I I really would too. I think it's fun. And I basically to me personally, I think I've reinvented the genre, but I hope somebody out there's listening and somebody will pick it up and make it, even though it would cost a decent amount of money. It's fun and it's got great characters and it's kind of magical realism. It's got a grown-up Harry Potter uh character, kind of in a way that's a a real sorcerer and a and this crazy

Mars The Expanse And Philip K. Dick

SPEAKER_00 17:10

powerful government person who basically covers up everything supernatural, except this one's too big to cover up. So it's on the front page of every paper everywhere. And the military's involved uh police, firemen, a trucking company, and these guys that drive their little van, haunted object transportation that moves haunted haunted uh vases and mirrors and things, and they suddenly have to transport the largest, meanest haunted house that's ever existed. So it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

I mean, you could potentially set up like a whole John Wick style, you know, you know, extended universe based off of that, you know, like a Ghostbusters type thing, you know, based on that concept. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's very cool and definitely one of the more original ideas I've heard in a long time that I would love to. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

And even and it's and it's an homage to other to other things. I mean, obviously, I'm I didn't replicate or take anything from wages uh from wages of fear or from sorcerer, but it's still definitely an homage to that in that same world and a lot of other references in there. There's uh things from like I do what everybody does, and I do it in my writing as little bits and pieces of things that would be oh cool to do my version of that and replicate it. So I mean it's Smokey and the Bandit with a haunted house. Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

I I mean uh I I I had a similar thing. I I I went to school for screenwriting. I I've been focused a little more on the podcast as like a you know more viable, it's more viable, realistic approach to stuff, but I have uh it's a little passion project, and I've talked about it on the show before, and with actually someone you've worked with or worked on a film that he wrote or co-wrote The Puppet Master 3 with C C Courtney Joyner.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yes, good good friend, good friend, and an absolute encyclopedia of Hollywood and film and horror. As I if you obviously you know him, and if he hasn't been a guest on, you should have him a guest because he just I had him on the show a while ago.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

We it's like an over an hour interview, but I I talked about with him a concept idea I had because he worked on you know some Lovecraft stuff. I've also had Charles Vann on the show. Well, I interviewed him live at a Pittsburgh Horror Realm convention that we just had a couple weekends back, and another person that he worked with, Andrew Divoff, I finally had a chance to interview, talk about Wishmaster and everything. But I am a big you know, again, the B-grade movies, Lovecraft. I am a huge Lovecraft aficionado when it comes to the film stuff. And obviously Stuart Gordon, Brian Yusna, uh that whole team, you know, were major, major influences on the style of writing, along with Stephen King, George Ramiro, like you know, Craven, you know, the the the godfathers basically, you know, of like the 70s, 80s, 90s. And one of the my favorite films, because I'm a I'm a huge sucker for anthology horror. Anthology in general, like my my mindset when I see an anthology movie, and especially growing up in the 90s where you know you had the X-Files and the resurgence of like the the Twilight Zone and the Outer Limits, and you know, watching reruns of Tales from the Dark Side, the Dark Tales from the Dark Side movie, Tales from the Crypt. You know, I I I always thought of anthology movies being like you pay for one movie, but you get like multiple, like a little more for your buck, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Right, right, right. Yeah, you get three or four or however many stories are in the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah, right. Creep show is my probably my my favorite George Ramiro movie of all time. And there's this really underrated, I mean, it's it's like hasn't even made it to DVD unless you get a bootleg, and it hasn't made it to Blu-ray yet, with like a director's cut. Why Scream Factory, are you listening? Arrow video, are you listening? Like, like that is Necronomicon Book of the Dead. And which which I don't know about. Well, I know the Nepicon, I don't know the I don't know the anthology, so it it's it's it's from Brian Yuzna. Oh, okay, and Jeffrey Combs, you know, in one of the many infamous Lovecraft films that he worked on with you know the the Yuzen Gordon team, he actually plays HP Lovecraft.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

I can't believe I can't believe I've never seen this actually. Yeah, I have these weird blank spots.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

It takes play. In the the the like I think late 20s or early 30s and he goes to this like mystic library and there's like this cult of people you know monks or something that have a Necronomicon and he knows about it. He sneaks and basically gets in this secret chamber and starts like deciphering the book. And the movie is like three stories of him, you know, deciphering from the book. And then there's like a beginning, middle, and wrap around with Jeffrey Combs's Lovecraft. And the way it leaves off, spoiler alert, is that like he gets away with the book. And it was like, I think from New Line Cinema at the time, like early 90s.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

And yeah, somehow it's one of those, like, how did I miss that? What and I never never got a never had the pleasure of working with Brian, but uh Stuart and everybody else. It's like, oh yeah, we're yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Had the had the luck to work with all of them. I I I I just like I had I've had this this long idea, it's like a dream project to kind of make a sequel and almost like a tr a trilogy of anthology, you know, sequels follow-up to the original film. And it would follow, like, I have this the script like fully written, it's won like a bunch of awards and some film festival stuff, but like it would follow, you know, Lovecraft, you know, uh several years after, you know, the the after events of the first film. So like now he's you know getting closer and it would have three brand new stories. I I wrote all the stories with various inspirations from numerous different movies and stuff, and a lot of Gordon using the Stephen King stuff to Carpenter, and it would just include three brand new stories and you know kind of kick it off.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

That'd be that'd be awesome. It's it's interesting to me. There's always new things to be found in the Lovecraft mythos. It's it's it's amazing. And there seems like every year there's a new book anthology out or two or three or four. And some you know, elements of that have just of him, his work have just permeated everything in the culture so so very much. It's just amazing how it's perennial. And I guess that's what happens when you create a when you create a pantheon like that, and it's you know, it's it's such a rich. I'm always in awe of writers who can do that, who create worlds and then people the worlds, with in his case, men only just people, but right atmosphere and the elder gods and the whole mythos of that. That's not easy to do. That's not easy to do.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Not just that, but like some of the stories are so like open-ended that with the right writer's mind, like they could take something very short, you know, open-ended, you know, everything, a lot of it's implied, and then basically write something around it and fill in the gaps to make like you know their interpretation of you know the original source material.

Signals Dreams And Writing Flow

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, that that's a that's kind of a a writing style too, that he did it. I mean, he I'm more of a personally, I'm more of a poe guy because I like the story, and the character is much more story and character oriented, but the atmosphere that comes through and the open-endedness and it really engages your mind. And there's some writers that uh not uh overwriting is not a is not an insult, but they use a lot of words. Fantasy does that, use a lot of words, and they paint pictures, and that's glorious and amazing. And I love there's many of my favorite writers do that, but there's others that underwrite either by style or or just on purpose, and it engages your brain. I think one of my favorites, Roger Zelazny, who doesn't get quite the street cred that his contemporaries get because there hasn't been a lot of his projects made into films and TV, but still mad genius. And his uh multi-genre mixing things together in speculative fiction and dark fiction, kind of grim dark in a way, but also science fiction-y and magic, and it's really kind of hard to pin down some of Zelazny's stuff. But whereas another writer would, one of my favorite books of all time is Roadmarks. And it's basically a road throughout space and time that if you have the infinity to it, you can find the on-ramp and you can travel up and down it and take off ramps and go to different places and times. And there's a whole story involved with it about a character trying to recreate events that he remembers happening on the road. So there's a great plot and great characters. But any other writer, that would have been, you know, a thousand page or three books or something, and and and well done. I think it's maybe 200, 250, something, Zelazny. But I I believe I read something with him some point where he said he underwrote on purpose because he wanted to engage the writer, the reader's brains. So kind of meet that halfway, make it just descriptive and colorful enough, but let you put your input in. I think Lovecraft's definitely in that, although I mean his style is so eloquent and unique, and he definitely paints that atmospheric picture, but still leaves it open for us to let your brain go to the dark places.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Exactly, exactly. And I I just when I was writing it, I had my various like movie inspiration, you know, films on in the background for each of the stories. It was like I had I I kind of like felt, you know, just like I I I saw everything kind of like in my head, like how you know, like like you said, and I was able to just like really pump everything out like very quickly, you know. So I mean, it hasn't really happened with other stuff, but that that one in particular was a I'm hoping someday I can I I pitched it to Charles Bann uh when he was in Pittsburgh a few years ago and he seemed like intrigued. I didn't know how to like get in touch with him or follow up about it, but you know, I'm trying to like get that into the right hands, you know, maybe it'll there's potential.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

And well, we're we're in the world now, we're in the filmmaking world, obviously. With you can do it with your camera. I mean, you still have to have right effects and things, but I'm amazed and blown away. I watch a lot of YouTube videos, I like the whole backrooms genre, and there's and there's others that people Mike Flanagan started off with. I I think the budget was in the you know tens of thousands of dollars on Abcentria. And and also you know the route too. You make the little short film teaser for it, and whether it's not just going to a festival anymore or or enter it into a contest, it can actually have its own life on on YouTube as its own entity, and maybe people pick it up and like it. I mean, back rooms is I mean, I mean, there's so much with the back rooms, but uh it's what it's turned into a massive movie that's happening right now, which is completely awesome.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Not just that, but like the the guy who did uh the terrifier movies, like he self-funded it, and you know, like you have like the GoFundMe's now, and what's I forget the other ones, you know, but the those types of uh uh you know fundraising campaign stuff where yeah, yeah, and it's it's it's that whole thing that we do, and I'm guilty of it myself, but it's the advice that I give to everyone is just do it, get out and do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

And you got to have the right idea that you can do for a smaller amount of money, but these days with effects, I'm not I'm not an AI fan because not nothing against the AI itself. I'm against everything about it and how it's taking jobs and replacing people. And I think even even with a special effect, CGI or whatever, there is a person creating the art behind that. And even if it even if it may not have the same on-screen weight as a person in makeup, there's still a person connected to that. So I'm I'm not advocating do it AI, but there's so many inexpensive ways and apps and things you can use to make your effects. And you know, there's so many filmmakers out there that it probably in your neighborhood. I that's the advice I give to everybody. And I mean, look at look at films even recently where again I'm guilty of not getting off my ass and doing it, but but uh like everything from Shinichiro Ueda making one cut of the dead for almost no money whatsoever. And that's just an instant iconic classic movie. That's recent. And so you don't necessarily have to have a whole lot of money to do it, but it also takes it does take time, it does take energy. But and I think that's part of it too, all of our heroes, like you said, Romero, he just did it. Don Coscarelli, I mean, it helps to have that youthful energy. I think uh I I want to say he was 19 or 20 or something, maybe he was older when he made Phantasm. I could be wrong on that, but even you know, even flashing back to Sam Raimi and the guys in Michigan, you know, they're you're just you're again, it helps to be young and on fire, but that fire's burning in you to just go do it. That's kind of advice to you, me, and to everybody out there listening is just just just do it.

Pitching Haunted Object Transportation

SPEAKER_00 30:40

It's like a Henry Rowland song or a Nike commercial, and and and especially now when there's an outlet. I mean, for good or ill, the YouTubes, the whatever, the channels, uh the good, good and bad on everything. But before, if you had to get into a festival, now now the festival is everywhere. The festival is on my TV and it's every day. It's it's funny. I was I was thinking earlier when you're talking about anthologies, YouTube is the biggest anthology in the world. It's a non-stop anthology. It may not be packaged as such where you go sit in the theater and see three or four or five stories on a theme, but you can create your own theme. And and and uh side note, I'm not connected to Google or YouTube, anything whatsoever. And I actually pay for it just to skip the ads, which I hate, but uh it is it is like like anything. If you use the tool, it's out there and it's such a great ability to get people seen and noticed and get ideas, and and again, like back rooms and others, kaboom.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Exactly. And and and another film of yours I wanted to talk about real quick is on talking about like you know, doing something with a smaller budget with a big idea and executing it really brilliantly, and also being another cult sci-fi classic that's circuitry man too. I I I had the chance to a while a while back, I had Vernon Wells, the circuitry man himself on the show.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Amazing guy.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Amazing, you know. I I I I couldn't keep my cool, and uh I I uh I I I quoted uh his his his uh the Schwarzenegger line after he kills him in commando, but he took it all right, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Like such a such a well, you know, hey, you know what? Uh as long as long as you're not a psycho fan, fans are great. That's why people do things, you know, and it's it's like me, people still saying that they like films that I wrote, and I'm like, well, that's kind of awesome that somebody actually liked it. And I actually like the people who hate them too, because I laugh at the terrible reviews because I'm like, hey, they got that. I can't remember if it's and just to be clear, I didn't write or direct or anything on circuitry man too, but I worked on it. But the I can't remember, is it two or one? I want to say it's two because I remember being there, but my memory's sketchy, where uh a squib got got circuitry man got or he's what I

Circuitry Man And On-Set Grit

SPEAKER_00 32:55

forget his character name now, but he he got shot. The squib goes off, and the squib caught on fire, and his costume is on fire. He finished the scene. He didn't remember. Uh yeah, I can't remember if it's two or one. I want to say it was two because I kind of remember being there, but that could just be me recreating a memory and uh putting my safe somewhere I wasn't. But he acted through it, and you're just like, oh my god, and you could tell when you watch it close, he knows he knows it's happening, he can feel the heat from it. And what you know, it just accidentally happens in filming. But you know, how many people would just go cut? It's kind of like kind of like it's like the uh political version of Teddy Roosevelt getting shot in the chest during a uh during a speech years ago, and and then just finish and then then getting taped up and then going for the you know another three hours of the speech. Like, wow, wow, like what obviously it didn't hit an artery or anything, but I think there was uh I was hearing the I'm totally forgetting his name, but he blew me away. The new guitarist for uh Judas Priest, who basically grew up wanting to be in Judas Priest and became the lead guitarist for Judas Priest. And I guess it's been five, eight years ago, had an aortic aneurysm on stage and was in absolute pain in a festival. I think it was in Kentucky, and just in agony, and finished the set and went to the hospital evac and has like a 14-hour surgery to replace it. I'm like, that's heavy metal, that's like those are just some badass people. So Vernon Vernon uh acted acted through that.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I just heard a story about Harrison Ford doing the same thing on the fugitive, like he apparently injured his his leg, and since his character was like supposed to walk with a limp, like like if you go back and watch the fugitive now and you see him like running and everything, and why is he really limping? Really, he's really limping, and then like waited to have the surgery until the movie was over.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Wow, and well, and yeah, I know if you're a Jackie Chan fan, I'm sure you are. That was always the the best thing of you know, watching the outtakes, but I want to say City Hunter or Super Cop 2, one of those where you show in the thing where he basically broke his ankle into early in the filming, and they basically put a cast on it and painted it to look like a shoe. And when you watch the movie now, he's doing all those insane stunts, like three-quarters of them, with a broken ankle in a cast. And you're like, it's mental. So, yeah, hats off to Vernon and all them for doing that, and just delivering creating iconic characters too. It's funny how the circuitry man movies are kind of that don't get as much. Uh, I think they they're cult, I guess they might be cult classics for all I know, but they definitely should be if they aren't.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

I mean, I I honestly had to get both of them bootlegged on DVD. I I think they're I'm not even sure if if they're accessible on DVD. If they if they are, it's one of those DVDs that's definitely out of print and and incredibly hard to find.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Uh there well, there's that's kind of the sad thing about streaming. I mean, it used to be, you know, that yes, there's a lot of DVDs out there somewhere, but you're buying them used from Amazon or whatever, and streaming doesn't have everything. And that's that also goes back, I forget the exact number, but I think with nitrate film and film catching on fire, I I heard this decades ago that there's something like 80 or 90 percent of everything ever shot is

Lost Films And Streaming Gaps

SPEAKER_00 36:10

gone, doesn't exist, and that's going back hundreds of years into the film era. And then even I think what they found out when digital came in and they're starting to digital archive things, they found out that as people don't realize this, or you start to find out, even CDs don't last, they're not permanent. And I think a lot of films were lost or damaged, had to be repaired. And the way I understand it now, even in the big, there's still a lot of film archives at the studios. There was a famous fire 10 or 15 years ago at Universal in the down in the labs where it destroyed a lot of stuff, but luckily they had multiple copies. And I think they there's the the salt mine storage places in Kansas City also have gigantic vaults filled full of film prints, but they migrate them and they migrate them digitally every year or two or whatever it is. I'm you know, I'm not a technical guy, but what I way I understand it is they migrate the files to make sure that they're fresh and clean now. So thank goodness there's people restoring out there, but but like you say, something that recent, something that I worked on to think, wait, I can't even get that, I can't watch it. Where where is that? And it's like bizarre to even think that. But and and then when you discover things like I I have to go through my own IMDB to remember things that I worked on sometimes. I think I I found uh I found a t-shirt from I want to say I forget what it was, maybe it was Darry Dario Rogento's trauma or something. And I was like, oh wait, did I I work? I totally forgot that I had worked on it. I only did a few days on it, it wasn't a lot, but everything becomes a blur. But you know, that's the small version of hey, we've lost entire films. And hopefully they're not lost. They're in a you know, they're somewhere in the archives, then uh Amazon's an amazingly depth deep bench on things, and uh eventually maybe you'll be able to, you know, somebody's gonna make a buck and put it out there for three bucks. And and the and the redistributors too, like you mentioned, all the great releasing companies that are putting the B movies out. That's awesome. It's yeah, everybody's trying to make it.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

That's that's one thing what I love about I love about Blu-ray. You know, like Blu-ray, you know, I mean, I'm I'm one of those people that I I invest in collecting physical media, not just if it's like an apocalyptic scenario where it's like, you know, you know, streaming services, it's it's you know, you know, it's it's all you know, you lose your internet, you lose, you know, accessibility to watch all that stuff, you know, having and you don't and you don't actually own it, even though you bought it, you don't actually own it. That too. That too. You know, and some of the stuff that Scream Factory, Arrow, I forget I forget some of the other ones, but like stuff, stuff that they're restoring, stuff from the 80s, 90s, and even making like director's cuts or unrated versions of restoring, you know, footage that was, you know, missing, that a lot of movies, if you would have had all this extra stuff in there, it would have made it one, make a lot more sense, and two be much more conceptual and I think more interesting and long-lasting. And I think it's great that there's people that are like, I guess, my age and you know, a little older, that you know, either grew up in the time frame that these things are being released, or you know, were old enough to to rent it and watch it on cable and everything, you know, before the times of streaming services. And also, just like you said, more importantly, streaming does not have everything. You know, it's it's it's like, well, I want to really watch this and I'll and I'll look and like none of the streaming services have it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Yeah, I was trying to, I was telling somebody about another favorite film on the category of how the F did that get made? Rubber. If you've seen rubber, yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't couldn't find rubber anywhere. And I'm obviously I didn't go on Amazon and buy a DVD, I'm sure it's there. And honestly, I might have a DVD in a box somewhere. I could dig it out of the closet. But uh, yeah, it's not on streaming. But other things are there's a lot of stuff popping up on YouTube again, and things I'm surprised things show up. Uh, Tubi is amazing, Tubi's incredible. There's so they're like things on there I hadn't even thought of. Like, wow, where did they find that? And there's so many of these. I don't know how any of them make money. They're all popping up right and left from Pluto to Tubi to all these that have all this, all this content. And some are some are too, some are connected to studios or whatever. Like, like I get I cut the the cable direct TV cord years ago, uh, but I so I have an antenna. I'm lucky enough that I have a little wired thing that I point right at the mountains, Mount Wilson and above Los Angeles where all the TV towers are. So I get like 800 channels, and I'm flipping through some of these, and like there is so much insane content. I mean, it's only things like you know, 50 different Japanese channels and Spanish channels and all this, but some of the movie channels on there is like wow, where who's you know well the biggest ones obviously me TV, and then I think I have what is it, the science fiction one on. I can't believe it's on right now in the other room. Uh but you know shows the X Files every night and things or it was a comment or something. Yeah, comment, comment, yeah. Those are obviously the big ones. Uh but so that so there's a lot of content on those, and it's great when things show up. So, but it is sad that some things are lost. And I I wonder how many things are actually lost. Same thing with books, you know, there's manuscripts and books and i haunt used bookstores, and not everything has made it to ebooks. And I think I there's probably Project Gutenberg was out there for a while, which might have not sure if that was directly gone sideways with IA A, excuse me, AI harvesting of things, if that was connected to Gutenberg or not. But at least there was a there was a benign intent in the beginning to basically make a repository of every book ever published. And you know, at the heart of it, that's an amazing idea. That's a terrific idea. I'm sure somewhere along the way somebody gets access to that and does it for nefarious purposes or to make a buck or whatever, that's a whole different story. But it's like great to have that, and and uh so many little entities doing that for film, too.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Exactly, exactly. And some of the the the like collector edition Blu-ray sets they put together. I mean, just like when DVD was big and they would do that stuff. I mean, Blu-ray though, I think it it's it's it's gonna be there a little bit longer. And not just because it's new, but because it's it's a crisper look.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

You know, there's cleaner images, there's a lot of stuff that uh that didn't make it a DV, that was only on VHS, didn't make it a DVD, and these organizations are going out of their way to take you know the stuff that was kind of solely on VHS and converted to Blu-ray, which is like going one step past DVD, which is almost like and hopefully and and hopefully you know going back to the original, finding the original prints and making the role the really, really good, uh, you know, taking care of the other thing I brought up too, and

Blu-Ray Restorations And Director Cuts

SPEAKER_00 43:10

this it may be everywhere, and I may be an idiot, but the DVDs, the special editions, the Blu-rays have the repository of the extra additions and the director's cuts and the interviews. And like you said, Full Moon, Charlie Bann did the video zone back in the day, and almost everyone you watched, like I watched the director's cut in a commentary on uh uh David Fenture's Alien 3, I think it was, made what you said earlier about films that get cut and for reasons. There's always a reason running time, exhibitor time, some executive doesn't get it, or some director just went too far or too, whatever the reason is. The but that movie made way more sense, and I really enjoyed it a hundred times more with the deleted scenes, and it didn't turn it into a bloated four-hour movie or anything, it made the movie make sense. And I think there's some things in some things in the screenplay of Prometheus that didn't make it to it, which makes everything make more sense. And again, reasons, there's always reasons. Reasons for something. They're not always nefarious, but you know, sometimes for sometimes things get cut out of a movie that shouldn't be cut out of a movie that ruins the enjoyment of it or the explanation of it.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Well, well, Nightbreed, perfect, perfect example. What is it? The it's the cabal cut that that came out a couple years ago, or they cut like 45 minutes, maybe a little longer from the movie. And you know, it I mean, I always like Nightbreed, uh, you know, but like the theatrical cut makes it look like a very just you know, bam, bam, bam, a lot of stuff is smashed together, and it is more like an action monster movie. The director's cut gives all the the lore and mythology and and and backstories on all the characters that you know when you go, you know, remember seeing the theatrical cut that was pretty much out for the longest period of time until the director's cut came out. That it was like, you know, it was the it was this movie, and that's what you thought it was. And the director's cut totally just makes it like uh a really much more interesting movie. Same thing for uh all the uh the Riddick movies with Ven Diesel.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

I love the Riddick movies, I love that franchise and uh I mean pitch black, it's an interesting thing, it's almost like Alien and Aliens, where pitch black is a horror movie, even though it's science fiction, it's a horror movie. I always thought that action elements, and then you get into and then you do um uh the second one. It's like this is a big grimdark, almost Warhammer. It actually it's got so many Warhammer uh 40k overtones to it, grimdark overtones. This is big dark science fiction, and like wow, and then I love that the third one gets back to it, goes back to the basics again and and expands it and does it better. It's like such an interesting franchise. There's so much going on in there.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

And and for the longest time, I didn't even know there were directors' cuts for each film. And HBO just it happened to be on, and I and I I had it on, you know, it's like background, and I and I am listening and I'm like starting to hear scenes and stuff that I'm like I do not remember at all being you know in the theatrical cut. And then like I my attention is like immediately drawn to like, is is this is there a director's cut to this, you know, and then like I I find out there is, I get like the whole you know Blu-ray box set, you know, with like the the the most current you know third one in there and has all the director's cuts for you know each each of the three you know live action versions. And Chronicles of Reddick, I mean, would have been a much, much more interesting and uh understandable concept, you know, to go with if they just would have kept in, you know, all the stuff that they cut, you know, because everything that they cut makes that movie just seem like it's a you know uh your typical, you know, kind of 2000s sci-fi adventure action movie where there's so much backstory on Riddick, the setup for this new one they're doing where he actually goes to Furia, and yeah, him being a Furian, where you know, his Furia, the origin story, and just there's so much and the the Necromongers. There's so much in there too. And and in the the Riddick director's cut, there's so much more of like the survival stuff and and the necromongers, you know, that that you know, like Riddick, the third one, probably my favorite since you know, pitch black. Because it goes back to that like roots, but it also has that like updated you know storyline. Batista in that movie, and Jordi, what's his name? Uh Moala. I forget how to pronounce it.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Yeah, he he's a great it it since since uh bad voice too. He is one of the best villains, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Again, back to the back to the predator testosterone in the room. How you get Batista and Diesel in the same room, it's just right, right. Like, wow, it's just rolling off.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

So and he even how he kills Batista, you know, and with the line like Jamoke.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Such a such a yeah, uh great, great iconic character. And that's I was gonna say earlier we're talking about it too, about all of the director's cuts. The limited series, I mean, I hate it when a series gets cut off when it's supposed to go on for seasons, they leave you on a cliffhanger, and whoever cancels it, that just sucks before I can wrap up everything from Firefly to you know there's so many, so many examples of that. But the if you plan a limited series, you can actually take a breather, you can explore all of those things. It's much like the difference between a novel and a screenplay, where in a novel you can go and go in different directions, develop side characters, develop side plots. Game of Thrones, best example. I mean, there's so many, they ended up putting in things that weren't even in the books, but you can explore the world more and in a limited series. Whereas in a film, you're just you're limited. You got, I mean, if you're lucky and established, you have 120 pages. You know, if you if you're David Fenture, right James Cameron, you can put out a three-hour movie. Everybody else, the exhibitors, there's so many people in the chain of command of a movie going, wait, we can only get four screenings a day instead of five or six with a shorter film. There's so many things pushing the end of the length of a film that uh from basically from the very beginning, from the writing stage, the screenplay, the shooting, and then finally in the edit, all these things get left out. And luckily, again, there's the world, the Blu-ray and the DVD world for the extended versions and different releases, but sometimes it just hits the cutting room floor and it's gone. Like I don't know if you knew Jeff Burr or not, or ever had Jeff on uh passed away, good friend and amazing director. And I'm forgetting which number of Leatherface movie that it was, that he I believe Dave Skow wrote it, and they intended to become just one of the bloodiest films ever made and shot it amazing, and then apparently it was too bloody and gory for exhibitors or the marketing people or something, and they just cut it, cut it, cut it right at the edge. And according to Jeff, what he had said before that a lot of that foot that footage is just gone because it was optical and they didn't save it. They just cut it. I mean, maybe they found some and there's been a re-release that I'm not aware of, but I remember talking about uh that with Jeff when he's still alive and was so frustrating for him as a filmmaker, and I'm sure for the you know the writer and everyone involved, it affects people and especially the fans. We want to see, you know, you go. I I love the fact that you know Chainsaw One is the movie with hardly any blood, just a few drops, but we psychologically remember it, and it started those uh for one uh for one of a better term, started the slasher genre and turned into so many bloody gory things. And then, but then to have that and finally just go full bore with it. And now I'm sure the effects these days, I mean, after Hostel and after so many other movies, the gore level is just like we're so used to it in films now. But at the time it was being made, it was too much and gone. So, and that's that's just an effects thing, but also like story points, like you say, like we're talking about early. Some of them are gone, some of them don't exist anymore, and that's that's sad from a from an artistic, a preservationist, and a fan level, not to mention the creators and the people that really really labor on stuff, and then poof, it's gone. Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

And I I believe that was the Texas Chains of the Massacre part three.

Texas Chainsaw Legacy And Missing Footage

SPEAKER_01 51:52

I think it was three, yeah, yeah. That sounds right. Which which I I just again a couple weekends ago, horror realm big uh Pittsburgh Horror Convention. I cover have covered for a long time. The people who run it are friends of mine, and I've been a longtime fan before I was a podcaster that that went as just just a normal attendee talking to people, and now I'm a press pass guy and I get in for free.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

And you know, you know, Peter Parker or uh exactly once you get your camera and your glasses, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:28

You know, and Caroline Williams was there, and I had a chance to to interview her. Bill Mosley was also there. I didn't get to interview him, but the I guess Caroline Caroline was very nice, but you know, on the subject of Texas, Chainsaw One, like you said, definitely should be considered the the fundamental film to have started this laser genre because you would not have Halloween without if you didn't have Chainsaw first. That that's that's a fact.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

It's also I think it's also a lesson to filmmakers, too, that the less is more, and there's so many examples of that, so many examples of that. From we always talk about the shark not working in jaws, and I think in Alien, the aliens were supposed to be on stilts and running, and that didn't work, so it becomes more whatever variation that is, it's happened so many. I think that even happened maybe in Dog Soldiers 2, they couldn't move as well as they thought, but uh that so many of that happy accident, but it's just basic filmmaking that goes back to you know to Hitchcock level to uh you know, just the thing when you like tell the story and then you can add the stuff in. I think I want to say it was don't quote me on this, I think it was John Dijkstra or one of the giant uh big time special effects guys from the 60s and 70s, that his mantra was don't use me unless you need me. Somebody that's responsible for the most amazing things ever done and telling the filmmaker, don't use me unless you need me. I mean, I'm sure you got paid either way, but that's the filmmaking. And then when you accent it and when you bring it into the four, that's when it becomes it really becomes Titanic because you're focusing on the filmmaking, and then the effects just blow it out of the water and make it so much better.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

And that was part two for me for Texas Chainsaw. That part two from the way it starts out to introducing the real protagonist, Carol, Caroline Williams character, stretch to Dennis Hopper, you know, one of revenge. It's like it's it's it's not just like a the you know your your typical sequel, you know, it's it's again resetting the the horror trope uh of the final girl with introducing characters that you think are maybe you don't know yet or are part of the plot line or not, killing them off right off the bat, and then having you know the the final girl being introduced, you know, to take over. Then you have Dennis Hopper's character who it's like a revenge movie, you know, for for him, you know, from characters from the first film. And then you have Chop Top, you have you know Leatherface, you know, more Leatherface throwing in Chop Top as one of the most uh uh villainous, coolest, iconic horror characters ever in horror film history. And then and then to top it off with you know the the the chain sub battle between Hopper and Leatherface, like at the end, you know, I mean it's it it in like a freaking abandoned, you know, meat meat plant factory that that's like you know filled with you know all these terrifying nightmarish you know corpses and bodies and you know skeletons and everything. And I remember the trailer was like 10 years for them to do a sequel to it, and it was just really because the 80s was you know the hype of like slasher movies to bring it back, but I mean to to bring it back to that extent, I mean they really upped the ante. And then the third one, I always this is my opinion, I consider it like the the new nightmare uh of the of the franchise. You know, technically, you know, it ends with part two. You know, that's that's that's it. The family's dead, you know. Chop top, maybe, you know, they could they could, you know, Hollywood, if you're listening, that's where I would suggest making an actual Texas sequel. Great spinoff, yeah. Chop top back. But the third one, I I just I I honestly loved it. I think it's I think it it I think it's the the one that I mean obviously the fourth one, next generation, gets a a lot probably has a lot more issues and gets a lot more heat and crap than than the third one does. But the third one I I actually really, really enjoyed a lot. I think it's a standalone movie, and I I I could tell there's a lot that probably got cut from it. I remember seeing some behind the scenes stuff on the the DVD when I had the DVD copy that Vigo Mortensen had a lot more roles in in that movie, the scenes in that movie. There's a lot more other stuff going on, but I I I I honestly thought it was a really it was it that was that one was really the true slasher film version version of it, yeah. Where the the first two were really just like it's its own entity as a part one, part two, and this is like a brand new, just separate universe type type type film. And I remember also hearing there are a lot of issues with like the filming location. It was filmed in California and not Texas. But you know, I I I I personally enjoyed it a lot, and I I wish we we could have we could have gotten the uh the full version, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Well I'm hoping I'm hoping some of that stuff was saved out there to be a great testament to Jeff, who, as you know, passed on a while back. He's just a great guy, great what one of the directors that I've been privileged enough to work with, but also became very, very good friends with, and such an amazing natural storyteller, and the guy could just make you uh yeah from all the horror movies and stuff. Hardly anybody could make me laugh the way Jeff did. He just told such great stories. But but that's what he could drill into this the characters, and that's what the great like we were talking about earlier, is the great directors do, the great scripts, the great actors is they present a character and they drill down into that and you make make you care about them, and then you layer the monsters and the effects and stuff on top, and that's what makes it gold. So so here's uh wherever you're at, Jeff, here's two yeah, I miss you and Testament, uh great, great filmmaker, you know, and all other departed friends, but your work stands uh stands pretty high, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

I would agree with that. Same with the late Stuart Gordon, as we're talking about with Lovecraft, alien Dan Obannon, another brilliant uh screenwriter and uh filmmaker. It's one of my major heroes and inspirations, and you know, Total Recall, Fraternal Living Dead, Alien, you know, so so much more. I think Screamers also was Dan O'Bannon.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

But and and Swamp and Swamp Shark full circle. You gotta put, you know, when you're talking about all the greatest films everywhere. Exactly. You guys got Swamp Shark up there.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

So and Ice Spiders. That's another one.

Sponsor Plug And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 59:54

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