Jon Klein Part 1: Music, Mystique, Movies, and More

In the more shadowy depths of the Fisch Bowl, we talk with English guitarist Jon Klein, known for his work in the later years of the Post Punk band Siouxsie and the Banshees! We discuss many of our favorite bands and artists including the Sex Pistols, Alice Cooper, and Jimi Hendrix, as well as genres we grew up listening to like Glam Rock, Psychedelic, Heavy Metal, and Punk.

Also in part one of this jam packed interview, we go into many other rabbit holes surrounding bootlegs, music in film, and whether or not artists should make their beliefs known, it's a conversation your ears don't want to miss!

Transcript

Welcome To The Fishbowl

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Attention on the fishes in the sea.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the fishbowl.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

John Klein on the fishbowl. Welcome. Thank you for taking greetings. Thank you for taking the time to swim in the bowl with me. I'm excited. I'm a big, big fan. So I apologize if I'm a little uh tongue-tied.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

No, no, yeah, don't worry about it. I mean, I I was the fan of quite a few people I work with before I worked with them, so I I totally know.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Awesome, awesome. I don't even know where to start with the the extension of your career, and and I I imagine it'll probably take many, many conversations to dissect what's going on up there and the experiences and everything.

Early Influences And Guitar Heroes

SPEAKER_03 0:55

But the first question that I like to ask my musician guests is what got them interested in music, slash who would you say some of your like major influences are?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Right. So I've got for me it honestly, I guess kind of noisy electric guitars, obviously. So kind of from that direction, I would have been kind of a 70s teenager. So glam rock in England, wouldn't it? I I think. Well, glam rock and kind of and rock and pop music. I mean everything did kind of mix itself up at that time. So you know, you had cool people like Bowie doing kind of rock music and Roxy music and T-Rex, kind of making quite strong kind of riff music. But then I don't I remember being on the bus home from the bus home from school, hearing some older kids talking about Jimi Hendrix. And and one of them asked the other a question just like, Well, who do you think is the best guitarist in the world? Thought of which had never occurred to me, anyways. And the other one goes, oh Jimi Hendrix. In my mind, I had this kind of academic kind of oh god, McLaughlin-esque player in my head. So I eventually got to see Jimi Hendrix, Jimi Hendrix kind of performing on TV or whatever, it was like wow. That was a real shock, you know. It just wasn't it was really funky. I mean, I really got into I think Hendrix was the gentle stuff I got into and the quite abstract stuff. They were just the the most alien to me. That was super interesting. And then I guess by kind of mid to late teens, then the punk rock thing kind of happened in England. So that kind of you know, that changed changed a lot of perceptions, didn't it, really? I mean I did love the Sex Pistols sound. Yeah, that records. Definitely, albeit only one, it just kind of had a certain sound. And uh and the curious thing is well, some of that is some of that's the amplifiers that they were using. Because I you know, it's when I made the Metal Boxing Dud album with Jar Wobble a few years ago, I was kind of listening really close to kind of to the original public image stuff, and and I started suddenly noticing similarities that I'd never noticed before between Keith Levine and Steve Jones's sound and the pistols. Because not normally when you think about public image, it's more prog actually, which I always thought was uncool when I was a kid, but you know, but then you know using funny time signatures and being a little bit more conceptual. But there are certain bits of air riffs where it just for a couple of chords, it just slips into a pistols moment. Even on public image, a single, there's a couple of chords that fill in on the chorus because it's doing his what the edge stole for you two sound, isn't it? When he bangs into it, it actually sounds more pistols-like than I remembered it. So that was curious.

Bowie To Zappa To Alice Cooper

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Awesome. I I mean, all the bands you just listed. I mean, this is like like I was born in '88, and I kind of grew up, you know, like like my dad is is a couple years older than you, and he uh really, you know, was a big 70s, you know, age kid as well. And he talks about all the the bands of like the the major classic rock era, Hendrix being one of them, he gotten me really into Hendrix, and my favorite iteration of Hendrix is Bana Gypsies.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Like Rugby, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Oh my god. Like, like my prediction is if Hendrix would have lived, he would have. I my personal belief based on Bana Gypsies and the where like you had James Brown go and the the rise of like you know, P Funk and Funk really like becoming a big thing. I I foresaw him going down that road. Yeah. Like like kind of funk. That's where I kind of saw him heading, but you know, he never got the chance to go. But one of the the legends, and then talking about glam rock, my dad saw Bowie a bunch of times, talks about the performances and how I wish I wish I could have seen Bowie. You know, he was one of my all-time favorite artists, as well as kind of musician cult actors. I mean, one of my favorite films, especially as a kid, is Labyrinth. Not to mention this the soundtrack. And and then going back even deeper, you know, talking about guitar Mick Mick uh Ranson, you know, Ronson Ronson. Yeah, you know, their their cover of their live cover, I'm waiting for the man of one of one of the best rock and like just jamming, you know, shredding, you know, a lot live performance riffs. And and my dad also got me into Zappa. You know, I'm a huge Zappa fan. I I actually just shout out to their the the newest live album, the or 50th anniversary of I forget the name, but it's it's the live album with him and Captain Beef Art. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, that went click.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And funnyly enough, I saw um some podcast done in a in a record shop in LA, and it was just choose your top five vinyls and it was with Steve Vai. And and he put like I think Zingy Stardust was his number two. His number one was actually Alice Cooper, Billion Dollar Babies.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

That's a great album.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I I think that's that's his best album.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Stormwise is amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah. I would say, I mean, first of all, hello hooray to open Billion Dollar Babies. That's one of my all-time favorite songs from Alice Cooper. And then just the whole like story of the album, but especially the last Alice Cooper had a real like trademark for making like the last three songs of all his albums. Like they all kind of you know were like one long song. Or like they they it was either done like that or like they all you had to listen to them in that order. You know, they were like separate entities, but they all went together. It was like in in a three-song lineup order. And don't you think a note of this?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I'm gonna go back and check that.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah, yeah. Like especially the I'm talking about like the 70s Cooper, you know, like you can hear it in Love It to Death, the last three tracks, School's Out, last three tracks, Billion Dollar Babies, last three tracks. And Killer also has the last three tracks. It all kind of flows together. Like his his main or like early, like 70, or I guess 70 stuff, all had like that that three-song lineup at the end. And billion dollar babies, it's the their stick things is like the the middle one. The last one is I Love the Dead. I I'm forgetting the name of the one that starts it off, but you know, just and and the and Alice Cooper, another one of my favorite cult actors. You know, I mean, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Oh, he's fantastic. But yeah, I I remember that being we had sort of a really kind of posh, really old English teacher at school, and yeah, he was obsessed by how this he just wanted to get the class to talk about. I can't remember how he described him, but he was totally kind of shocked and outraged by him, but strangely obsessed and just wanted to talk. I couldn't understand how young people would be worshipping this guy that was guillotining himself on stage. The rest, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Amazing stuff. I mean, um, and then talking about the the punk rock era, again, the Sex Pistols, awesome, awesome band. I mean, I love you like the UK punk scene and I love the the like American punk scene as well. Like, yeah, and and like it was I thought it was really cool how like both were going on at the same time, but I remember watching a documentary where like the the English ones compared to the American ones, like with the sex pistols, like they were breaking bottles and you know, like slicing themselves and everything. And the apparently the like if I remember correctly, the American ones were a little more tame compared to what I think I guess probably Sid Vicious is probably responsible for a lot of stories, you know, and he was just like he was a crazy kid that had a mummy who was a junkie and it was a lachkey kid, and probably just wanted the attention, you know, I guess as much as anything else.

Malcolm McLaren And Punk Origins

SPEAKER_00 10:50

But then I'll tell you what, was a really good read a while ago. I read a biography about Malcolm McLaren. And it's it's really I don't know if it's because I'm English and I've been to I went to art school, but it is so interesting. It's about 800 pages. And and just the well, the way that you know the way that he ended up doing half a dozen art degrees because you could just con yourself into a college in a different borough by if you could talk the talk with the you know, with the establishment, you know, with with the administration and bureaucracy. So he did quite a few different art courses. I don't know if he really finished any of them. I think the last one of which is where he met Jamie Reed, who was already kind of more of an activist that did all the all the artwork for the pistols and and stuff. But uh but the whole idea of kind of getting into retail. Actually, one of his art teachers was also the father of Damon Albarn, a singer in Blur, as well. Oh wow McLean. So but then that that thing of him, you know, the New York Dole dolls walked into his clothes shop one day and it changed his world. And and he followed them to America. And so I think his plan was when that fell fell apart after the red patent lever and the hammer and the sickle operation. Well, it sounded like the dolls were on their last legs, anyways, but his idea was to get Sylvain Sylvain to come over and be the singer for the Sex Pistols, which is how the you know the White Gibson Lespool and and the Fender combos. And and then because those fender amplifiers that he brought over, that was kind of quite a big change because they sound really different to Marshall amplifiers. They've just got a s there's there's one diode that you can clip in a fender twin combo that just gives it that sound. And it's like the sex pistol snob. I think it was a master volume that you pulled out on the amplifier. And so, you know, when I when I hear again, you know, anyone that's using the twin, particularly the pistols, and then public image as well. There's a certain kind of sound to it. But yeah, but obviously, but then Sylvain didn't happen because the dolls got offered a big Japanese tour at some point. But yeah, an interesting story though about from his book. I mean, there it's it's a really good read.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

It's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

On so many levels, but he he his family was kind of from the rag trade in the East End, so there was a bit of a fashion-ish background. His grandmother was really odd. I think his mum really kind of let go of him at an early age. She doesn't sound like she was too nice, so his grandmother pretty much brought him up, and she sounds like she was really eccentric. So, you know, because there's that way that Malcolm McLaren used to talk and lengthen the syllables of the way he talked, which John Rock Johnny Rotten kind of copied. That came originally from Malcolm McLaren's grandmother.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Interesting, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

That was the way the way that she spoke, you know. So she had the kind of punk attitude in some respects.

From Punk To Metal To Grunge

SPEAKER_00 14:20

That's awesome. I guess I mean the Americans. Well, you because I get well, who was early on the American C well, Patty Smith was right at the front, wasn't she?

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Yes, I was gonna definitely mention her, obviously, Iggy Pop.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Oh god, yeah, the Stooge the Stooges should have been the first one that I mentioned.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Yeah, really. Yeah, yeah. I mean the stu Iggy pop is probably uh I mean one of the sole, if not pioneers, definitely responsible for I mean punk rock as as uh I mean the the for it to be known as the genre it is now plus like all the various sub-genre iterations yeah you know that that spawned you know over the last like 50 almost 60 some years at this point, which is really, you know, it's like I'm like uh like movie music encyclopedia connoisseur, you know. I I love to I love to consume it, I love to diagnose it, you know, pick it apart, you know, listen to the intricate parts of certain songs, and I guess that's why like I mean I I probably like psychedelic rock and heavy metal as like my two favorites, and then punk is definitely in there. I mean, then talking about punk, like a little in the the 70s into the 80s, you gotta as far as America goes, the cramps uh is is a big one. Misfits, another big one. There's there's a couple other ones as well. The Ramones, obviously, big one. But you know, I mean it was very I it's like as as much as like the 60s and I would say the first half of the 70s with like all the the classic rock bands, it's like they almost whether it was due to drug abuse or just being like burnt out through touring and pumping in the studio, being forced to pump out and kind of letting the creativity and the business, you know, side take over, egos, all that. You know, it's it's like pretty much it almost every single major band from that era that did not have their lead singer or like founder all die at you know 27, you know, in in the same freaking year, you know, they all kind of sold out. And I mean, you know, they they they still could tour, they still could, you know, sell out seats because they'd already made their foundation, but only a handful of them like actually stuck to I guess their artistic like original values about it being more about music versus you know the the corporate you know business side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but in that like gap where disco kind of came in as like the the kind of like you know mainstream, you had the the evolution of punk, you know, really, you know, growing in the in the underground. And you know, like the it was it was the in my opinion, the next kind of like phase, you know, in rock and roll history. And it it definitely went on. It was kind of like a little short-lived, kind of like how grunge was a little short-lived. Like it had a a prime kind of like almost 10-year, you know, you know, prime kind of like existence, and then you know, it was replaced by you know, like the the next kind of iteration of rock and roll, which was you know, hair metal kind of taking over and oh god, yeah. You know, Eric God awful stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Uh well, and that was curious. I mean, I guess there's no surprise that that was the same time MTV was exactly also giving birth. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:51

Exactly. But then, you know, the 90s totally like in in the blink of an eye with Nirvana, you know, just completely, completely changed the entire music industry overnight. And and I always kind of viewed the grunge era as like really the the like 65 to 75, you know, kind of era. Yeah, like a huge plethora of music, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

I suppose we we just had Guns and Roses that just preceded that, hadn't they? Right by a couple of years. They were the first band that were kind of well though, I should well, I suppose Metallica were anti-hair metal, weren't they?

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah, yeah. Well, I would say the the in-between that that took over where Punk probably left off in the the underground was thrash metal. Yes, anthrax, Metallica, yeah, exactly. You know, and though those bands, I mean, you know, talk about uh redefining a a genre. You know, you basically grow up listening to Black Sabbath and and Alice Cooper and probably from uh the UK, uh Atomic Rooster and you know, some other like middle-esque bands, Led Zeppelin definitely in there. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

But but I I was surprised because you know when I was a kid, who were the the big ones in the hard rock era, the biggest of the big ones would have been what? Yeah, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and then I would I would have put Sabbath maybe third on that list. Yeah, I I thought Deep Purple and Zeppelin seemed to be the biggest, but actually, in terms of what who invented the future, it was Sabbath, wasn't it, all the way?

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Oh yeah, oh yeah, like like you go back and listen. I mean, yes, Zeppelin was probably definitely bigger. I would say Deep Purple also probably bigger, but definitely in terms of the ones who totally made the signature sound for for what just metal is, you know, like the the what we know as metal now, you know, and and all again the various sub-genre iterations, it all originates back to you know the the riffs from Black Sabbath.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah, well, because I thought, I mean, comparing those three, for example, I mean, Leb Zet were more bluesy and more clever musically. Deep purple were kind of faster and pre that classical metal genre, whereas Black Sabbath just wanted to be the heaviest. That was the game plan, wasn't it? Just to sound like a fan.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

I mean, they were all it wasn't just heavy, I mean they were dark, you know. Yeah, like like that, that's like the whole, I guess, like vibes. I think I'm trying the word I'm trying to to use to to like. Make like their signature sound. It was dark. You know, nothing had been done like that before. And it was I mean, I remember seeing documentaries. I'm sure you know you live through it, but you know, it was scaring people, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah. Well, it yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a different context. It was just out there and people just believe what they believe. You mentioned psychedelic

Psychedelic Rock Scenes And New Artists

SPEAKER_00 22:29

rock. I mean, who are the big ones in that? You because you said Pink Floyd.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Pink Floyd. That obviously that's a big one. Major, major ones. One of one of my I would actually put them in my five favorite classic rock bands of all time. I I have to break like it into you know genres in decades. I can't I can't just, you know. I mean, honestly, I'd probably I I actually would say probably Pink Floyd is one of my all-time favorite bands ever. I love Pink Floyd. I would definitely say Lou Reed, the Velvet Underground.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Right. Oh wow. Well, in in in in terms of suckers, yeah, I guess it is, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

Well, especially Lou Lou Reed, especially his solo stuff. I would say Lou Reed, Jimi Hendricks, and and Pink Floyd, probably, because there's like several different like like the the three of them independently like spawned what has have what what now has like so many different subgenres based off of those genres of psychedelic rock that they each each individual band created. Like Hendrix is responsible for you know psychedelic like acid rock, you know, so like the heavy, you know, riffs and everything, and the two genres that I would say probably take most from Hendrix now that are like current genres would be like stoner rock and like stoner metal, but also taking from Black Sabbath tremendously with with that. Lou Reed, he's he he and Pink Floyd simultaneously, but also like in their own kind of like sh subgenres, created what now is like shoe gaze, dream pop, space rock, you know, like all these really like niche, you know, psychedelic rock genres, which in my opinion, that's like my favorite type of music to listen to currently, because I think it's the most creative, inspirational, you know, mind-opening, non, you know, corrupted by the music industry. It's like one of the only genres that that happens to be really thriving right now. There's a huge scene in the the UK for it right now, and actually in Austin, Texas, there's a there's a uh a big scene in California, Portland for that here in the States, and Canada also has a uh a decent like shoe gaze dream dream pop like psychedelic rock scene. There's a lot of good bands coming from there. But there's a guy I'm friends with on Facebook, he owns a record label in the in the UK called Fuzz Club, and every band that he signs and helps record and mixes with his name is uh Jason Shaw. Every band that he signs to the label and helps record, produce, you know, all that stuff with just comes up with like you know, beautiful, like long-lasting, like you know, timeless pieces of like records, psychedelic rock records.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Oh, I will check that out. Yeah, that sounds good.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Yeah, they they have a lot of good stuff. And on the topic of glam rock, actually in the UK, well, one in the UK, one in the States. I was wondering if in the UK if you're aware of a female artist by the name of Bobby Dazzle.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

That's familiar.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

She she just put out her debut album last year. And it's it's she her whole outfit, the way she dresses is very like you know, glam rock style, like how Bowie and like Hart would dress, and you know, like the the sequence jumpsuit, you know. But her first her debut album, it's it's like if if T-Rex, Bowie, and Jeff Rotoll and Yes, like like got together and had a baby, this is who it would be, Bobby Dazzle.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

And then there's was she out?

SPEAKER_03 27:19

The U UK, UK.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

She's coming out of the UK, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Okay, and then there's another artist that is is uh similar to her, but a little more prog rocky, and her name is uh Rosalie Cunningham. She's also coming out of the UK. The two of them they did a show last year where Bobby Dazzle opened for Rosalie Cunningham, and it would have been like seeing an epic like Renaissance, you know, like female renaissance like music, like prog rock. It's it's like Rosalie Cunningham is has been around a little bit longer, and she has a band that she was in. I think it's called Pristine was the original band, and then now she's doing her solo stuff. I might be wrong about Pristine. That that would that might require a uh Google search.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Okay, no, I'll I will go and have a look at it. Yeah, uh that's just so much music getting made getting made.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

I I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

It's good to get pointers.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

In in the in the States, we have a uh a male artist who is basically T-Rex with like Bowie mixed together, and his name is uh Josie. Uh Josy Hughes is the the actual name. It's it's G Y S A, I believe. There might be an IA. But he I he I had him on the show. He's one of my little more recent interviews, but what he's like a music prodigy, you know, like literally in in the in the as I'm saying it, and he's he combines like you know, art rock with you know glam rock, with you know, again, he dresses just like T-Rex would have, you know, but it's literally like if T-Rex was and Bowie had a a baby in the States, it would be this guy. And awesome, awesome artists. And I believe the label he's on is uh called Alive Natural Sound. And they have a lot of like kind of like bluesy, like classic rock sounding artists, and and I'm trying to think there's also kind of with the classic rock, rock, glam rock kind of vibe. There's a big there they're big now. They're in they're based out of uh Germany called Blues Pills. And it's a female vocalist, again, dresses in like the the sequence outfits and everything, and her and this other female vocalist from a they're kind of like kind of like hard rock, kind of metal-esque band from Sweden called Spiders, and both female vocalists for Blues Pills and Spiders, and they collaborated and covered a Moon Aid's Daydream.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Right. Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah, that's that's a big one to cover that one.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Yeah, yeah, it's an awesome cover as well. The the both both of those bands are fantastic. Blues Pills, I really want to try and get on the show. They're very big and in the EU and the UK and everything. And same with Rosalie Cunningham, Bobby Dazzle, and all the the bands that are on Fuzz Club. But uh yeah, J Jason Shaw, he's someone I'm I'm waiting to get on the show, the talk about his his uh various uh bands and everything, label he he has and everything.

Politics In Pop And Lost Mystique

SPEAKER_03 31:04

And there's just like it's it's I feel like we're in an age where so much music is like accessible and like anybody can do it, but just like kind of how it's always been, you know, like you, and I think a little more so now with how the mainstream is, but you almost like have to completely sell out and you know, you know, lose your total moral compass and values and and everything. And you have to to succumb to saying like, you know, I support this cause and that cause and this, and you know, it it just is like, you know, it has no business in music or the arts in general. Like, you know, you should all, I mean, I'm of the firm belief that when it comes to arts, entertainment, music, like, you know, it's all right to have like a political stance and and image, but like as long as you don't like, you know, like make that like you know, Rage Against the Machine, for instance, they're very political, but like they they didn't make like it be like the driving like focus behind the band. The music was the main focus behind the band. You know, I'm you know, I mean, I'm just like not sure if if I'm having it come out clear like exactly what I'm trying to say, but it just is like I feel like I feel like mainstream music today, it's like you have to, I mean, like the thing at the Grammys, you know, it's like who wants to hear, yeah. Like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Well, that's all part of the tech age, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I mean, there is no mystique anymore. I mean, that's one thing I really miss about the music scene of the 60s and 70s was the mystique. Right. Right. You didn't know what they had for breakfast, or you know, you didn't get 150 selfies a day from them, you know. Right, right. Well, I guess I mean John Lennon went pretty critical pretty early, didn't he?

SPEAKER_03 33:26

He he did, but also like, you know, it it was uh it was a it was a highly different time. Uh well it was.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

I mean, he was groundbreaking, and I guess a lot of that would have been just the fact that he was with someone like Yoko Ono that was super high education level and just a much more conceptual artist, and just a different way of thinking about everything, really, didn't I?

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Using the PR potential of the attention that he was getting as a big rock star. Whereas now it's it's kind of I don't know, yeah, it does seem a bit of a cliche.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Yeah, it's like not just a cliche, it just is like it's it's like standard now. It's like you have to, you, you, you know, like for as much as they like, you know, preach like, you know, individuality, you know, like, you know, the quote unquote inclusiveness, you know, it's not very inclusive. You know, I mean, like, like there's people who like their music, and then I don't know, like the people who like a little more originality. Like there, like there's the radio people, there's people who listen to the radio and and are like, you know, I don't know, I listen to whatever's on the radio, and then there's people like, well, I like this music, I like that music, you know, I I like variety, I I like, you know, watching long movies, I like watching, you know, artistic pieces, you know, I I like watching, you know, stuff that intrigues me and you know makes me learn and you know like takes me away from the chaotic, you know, crazy world that we live in, you know, that you know, like makes me think, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yeah, yeah. It is a pretty chaotic world we're living in right now. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

And I mean, but that's where like, you know, music, I guess, you know, saves people. Like, literally, you know, I mean, you can listen to a uh a music track, you know, or an album, and it can literally transport, you know, your mind worries, you know, like whatever, like away for, you know, however long the album is, you know, half an hour, 40 minutes, you know, an hour movie, you know, basically hour and a half, two hours.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

You know. And I don't know, but I also think like music, like certain memories, you know, can trigger stuff, you know. And it can it can also like help heal, you know, like moods you're in and everything, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Yeah, I mean when I was growing up, I guess music was well well it was probably a bigger cultural phenomenon than it is now, just because it had less competition for distractions, didn't it? I mean, now in between the social media and the gaming culture and just news coming to you from everywhere in real time. It's kind of for us, I mean, you know, you we were listening to artists that were kind of almost telling us what books to read or you know, yeah. Other ways of thinking about things that were happening, and it was kind of yeah, it was it w it was the main the main source of information in in many respects, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Yeah, yeah. And and I mean music, um musi I and I'm always like music and film kind of you know coincide together, you know. Like, like I mean, literally like you wouldn't have this the the movie without the score, you know, and in some films like the score is like its own like living entity.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Film Soundtracks That Shape Stories

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Well I was so watching again recently, train spotting.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Yes, yes, yes. Well, it's it's like I I you know great movie, great movie. Guy Ritchie, another one of my talking about British directors, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He he the way he incorporates music into into his films, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

I remember I I heard the Luxstock soundtrack before I ever saw the movie.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Yes, I I remember I remember when that came out and how groundbreaking that was, and then the follow-up one, which is probably my my favorite film, Snatch. Yeah, yeah. Snatch is is a brilliant, brilliant movie. Also, the music, you know, like just how he he plays. What what's the uh in Lockstock, the uh the Greek, the famous Greek song that they play right before it's like leading up to the shootout in the the flat with like the two the two opposing the like the the drug dealer gang and then the the four like thieves and they're they're all like going to the the the the four main guys like flat, you know, when they think that's famous shootout.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

I forgot what the the uh we got so I'm gonna google that sorry a bit of kill joy. That's not never on Sunday, is it? Uh um Zorba's dance.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then and then and then I love how we did the same thing in Snatch with like a Jewish like Hebrew song, where it was the scene, the same kind of setup, but it was where the cars were like it was Jason Statham and his his partner, and then like Saul and you know Vinny Jones and you know and then the the the black guys that own the pawn shop, you know, they're all like driving, you know, and then it all like you know like you know comes to a climax, and you know, you know, it it I love I love his his choice of of me.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Oh I'm gonna go back and watch Smash again.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Yeah, yeah. And and then like I always I always thought of Guy Ritchie as like the English Martin Scorsese.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Because like they both do gangster movies, you know, and and in both of their gangsta styles of gangster movies, like one is classic rock, is a big like you know, part of it, but music in general is like a a huge you know tool used to tell the help tell the the course of the story. I mean, good fellas, you know, yeah. A phenomenal film, but like Clapton's oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

The reprise from Light. Yeah, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Also uh Clapton was cream, sunshine of your love. You know, that that scene with De Niro, you know, smoking the cigarette in the the bar restaurant or whatever, or where he's thinking he's gonna kill uh Morty or whatever. You know, that that's a signature scene.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

It's not the one where the camera's pulling away. It's not the one in the Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

That's where he's smoking the cigarette, he's at the bar, and he's like keeps looking at uh the Morty guy and and just fantastic uh film. And same thing with uh casino, you know, there there's the Mean Streets even has it early on. You know, there there's I mean Scorsese, especially in all his gangster movies, even uh the his last kind of not last one, but the one with Jack Negro, the departed. The departed had excellent music used in his well, actually to start off the story, The Stones with Give Me Shelter.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Right. Wow, yeah. I'm surprised that Good Fellows, that was 1990.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Yeah, 1990.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Wow. I remember I was just in shock when I first saw that one. It just keeps coming at you, doesn't it? There's so many lines so Peshy. Oh my god. His the the the narrative arc with him is hilarious, it's just bonus.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

By far one of his top best performances. Like by far. You know, I mean, there's so many, so many lines in that movie.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

It's just he's a scary comedian in that one, isn't he? But so scary and so funny.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

You know, and and I actually just found out a little bit of trivia on that note. The the scene where the infamous scene, I'm funny. How? How am I funny?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Yeah, I fucking plow.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

That apparent well, one I I knew I already knew that that was like the way Scorsese did a lot of the stuff in that movie was like he'd have the actors like improv the scene, and then they'd like get it down to a T through improv, and then he'd write the dialogue into the script. So that's how it came off very like like lot like it's living, you know, because it is. I don't know how like true and and real like the experience that Pesci experienced uh in his personal life, but something along those lines basically happened to him. And he was like, I think it'd be really good if we put it in the movie here and shoot this scene. And then, you know, the rest happened. And the rest is history. But apparently that was a real life experience that happened to Joe Joe Pesci, and he suggested to Scorsese while they were shooting that they that they shoot that scene just off the whim. And you know, they of course, you know, paste all the, you know, did the improv and then like put the dialogue in and then shot it.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

But you know, talk about how actual life experiences, you know, can uh yeah, no, brilliant, but brilliantly chosen as well. Because I mean he's set that character at that point is so off the wall and unpredictable. It makes him so scary. But then he's talking in this high-pitched little voice. Right, he does sound like a comedian. Right. Yeah, it's definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

I mean, even when he's like, you know, like right after they kill Morty, you know, they stab him with the ice pick through like the head, you know, the the the carbone, what's his name? Carbone or something, you know, is like is in the front, like Pasci's in the back. He got you know, Morty from the from the back seat, he's in the front, and the Carbone guy is like in the driver's seat. And you know, he's yelling at him like you know, like I'm letting the car warm up. What do you mean you're letting the car warm up? You know, get your fucking ass moving, like you know, like like they just killed a guy. He just killed a guy, you know. This guy's like a fucking moron, you know, and is like, you know, letting the car warm up. Like, like, like, like the find, like, you know, the to make a situation like you know, where literally like you just committed a a horrific, you know, terrifying act, you know, of murder. Um then and then you make a joke out of it, like you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Is it is it his mom or his grandma? Like his mom, his mom, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

And then actually Scorsese's mom. Yeah. Yeah, Scorsese used his mom in a couple of his films, and then I also just found this out. He also used his dad in Goodfellas, also. I knew his mom was in a couple of his movies. I didn't know about his dad, especially in Goodfellas. And it the the scene where he used his dad is when when they're in prison, and there he's talking about how so-and-so put too many onions in the the sauce. Yeah, you know, the guy who's cooking the sauce is his dad.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Wow. Brilliant. That's like Hitchcock appearing in his movie.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Right, right, right, right, right, right. You know, and and I mean and Scorsese even made his own cameo in a taxi driver.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Of course, yeah. Well, watching his wife having an experience.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Right, right, right, right. Another classic film.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Oh god, yeah, Bernard Herman. Amazing. Amazing, amazing composer. Oh my god.

Taxi Driver Scores And Sound Design

SPEAKER_00 47:21

It's funny actually when I went I went back to art school back 25 years ago, did a fine art degree. Uh and my my final project that I did was it was a video loop thing based around the idea of taxi driver, or I had part of the script in different languages. Like so I started off in English and then it went to Paris without without you really noticing, apart from the script changing and then to the French court of Shanghai. And and over over this footage, I just had two bars of the music, so like a little whatever, two chords of of that kind of a loop of that thing. And um the univers the university wanted to get a DVD for their collection. They said, Can you make your own version because of copyright? I thought, well, how hard can that be? How hard can it be? It was amazingly difficult. We never really got it, to be honest. Or we got some of well, you know, if you never compared it, and and you know, you've got nighttime rainy footage of taxi drivers with this. But um it's just he was listening to a lot of contemporary Jazz earnings.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

And his thing of dissonance, and you know, the bigger the interval, the more dissonant you can be. And it's and I had a let's have really kind of you know high-level classical players trying to help me out on this. No one could really work it out. What was a note and what was a frequency, just a a sound frequency, even it was really yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

And an another film uh that that really utilized that type of that type of scoring, Blade Runner.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Oh, Van Gellis, yes, yeah. That kind of almost invented a genre, didn't it?

SPEAKER_03 49:17

It it did, it did. I think it absolutely did. I mean also bands like Tangerine Dream that that did some scores for films in the 80s. They they put together some like uh Legend. That that that I believe was them. Legend? Yeah, Legend. Yes, yes. Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Ah, legend.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

Yeah, and and a young Tom Cruise.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Oh my god, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Dream. Yeah. The other thing was oh because I just mentioned that, you know, modern jazz and stuff from earlier on we'd talk about Jimi Hendrix, and I got it was just sounded like there was almost he almost collaborated with Miles Davis, didn't he, at one point?

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Yeah, yeah. That would have been interesting. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

And actually was that in a in a Miles Davis biography I read him saying that he was really surprised that that Hendrix it I'm sure I read that there that Hendrix didn't know any theory. So it was all done by ear.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Yes, yes, that's correct.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

I mean I just with the um because just Hendrix's harmonism. It it it just feels that it just that that's insane.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

I I'll tell you what, I've been seeing some it's been circling in my feed on Instagram. I I've been seeing uh some some various clips of live performances of the the first uh band of gypsies Phil Maurice performance where he does like the the first iteration of Machine Gun. And seeing him even in black and white, just just like being recorded, you know, just how like it it it it's like uh it's like he he's it's like what what's that famous thing where it's like they they play the the the centaur or that stringed instrument and like the the snake you know like dances you know like like literally the the the noises that he's making come out of the guitar with like how easy he makes it look, you know, and let's also not forget that he's he was a righty that played a left-handed guitar. Yeah. You know, so that's like a whole crazy mumbo jumbo. Well no, he's a lefty that played a right-handed guitar. I thought I thought he was a righty that played a left-handed guitar.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

I thought he's I'm gonna find out. Yeah, no, Jim Jimmy I always thought he was uh a lefty, but he just turned his right-handed guitar upside down.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Although it is strong the other way up, but I remember hearing Paul McCartney, because he's a lefty as well, he had theories about yeah, some of the the way that Jimi Hendrix played was different because he had an upside down guitar. That I suppose well your volume controls are in a different place, right? They're up there, so they're right under your thumb. And all the other thing is because when the strings go over the headstock, the more string there is, the more elastic it is. So because he's going upside down, the bottom, the low E string has got more, there's more length on the string, so it's more bendy than the otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

Interesting, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

So McCartney reckoned that might have affected some of the things that he was able to play on it.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Right, right, especially with like machine gun, red house. Oh god, yeah. Like, I mean, red house is probably one of my all-time. I mean, especially the live I I can only listen to the live versions.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Yeah, for me, that was the one that I was in, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

When I was like, like it it like let's let's get to to at least 10 minutes long. Like, like it actually, if we can go past 10 minutes, you know, like listening to that, that, that, the red house versions live. Oh my god. Yeah, there's there's a couple. I think the the Winterland album, M Live, this is one of the best live albums, where he does like a number of different songs and everything, but Red House, the winner, Winterland Live. He he has like, I think there's one version where it's like a almost 15-minute live version of Red House. And he does a couple, uh a number of other uh longer versions of his songs, like I think uh Catfish Blues, Tax Free, you know, I think even Hey Joe, he does like an almost seven-minute version. So that's that's a great album.

A Wild Hendrix Bootleg Story

SPEAKER_03 54:28

And and there's there's one my my one of my first jobs was at a gas station. And I started, I was like 18 at the time, and I started playing like it was the time where you know mixed CDs were like a really big thing, and I would, because I'd be working like eight-hour days, I'm like, well, I'm gonna go nuts, you know, if I'm stuck in this place with nothing to listen to and nothing to do except like just watch the cars go by, people pump gas and you know, all that stuff. So I I got a uh a CD radio thing and I started making mixed CDs. And I started off by making mixed CDs of like all various iterations of classic rock. So it was like all the Hendrix and Sabbath and the Doors and you know, all the good stuff, Zeppelin, you know, Pink Floyd and Clapton and Cream and all the good stuff. And it got to a point where all like the people that were like my dad's age and a little older, you know, the stuffs would come in and they'd be like, you know, how's how is a kid your age like even knows what this stuff is, you know, especially if it's obscure, you know, stuff like that. And you know, flash forward, you know, I'm there like a year and I I've gotten to know the regulars who I chat with about, you know, music and everything, and some people start like burning me CDs and stuff, just because based on what I'm listening to. And there was this one, I want to say she was maybe like a little older than like 10 10 years older than me at the time, and she used to work at some record store when she was like in college or something, and she said, I have this like bootleg Hendrix album that you can't play it here. And I'm like, what do you mean I can't play it here? I said, There's some stuff in it that you just you can't play it here, and you know, go home and listen to it, you know, and and tell me what you think when I come in next. And she she gave it to me, and I'm like, oh shit. There's like Jim Morrison's on this, Janice Joplin's on this, Buddy Miles is on this. You know, I went home, I I you know popped it in my stereo, you know, set the mood and everything right, uh, started listening to it. And one I will tell you that Hendrix has never, ever, ever made an album like this since like when during when he was alive. It was the whole album was like blues. It was it was it was like that kind of like very garagey, like you could tell it wasn't like recorded like on high quality, you know, recording system at the time. I think it was like 68 or 69, and they were in some club, and it was before like like they were all of them were like huge. And Morrison gets drunk during the the set because he was famous for not being able to hold his liquor, and he gets on the stage, he goes into the microphone, and he says he like is you know moaning into the microphone, shit face drunk, baby. I wanna fuck you up the ass. And just goes goes on a complete rant. You can hear Hendrix and the other microphone saying, Yeah, yeah, man, say it into the microphone, say it in the microphone.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

You know, and and uh and you know, he is it just he goes on a rant.

SPEAKER_03 58:33

I think it I think the the section on the track on the the album is called Morrison's Lamont. You know, and it's him just going on like a rant, shit face drunk, what he wants to do to a to a woman. And you know, it's a bootleg album, a live album. The rest of it is is is really awesome, but it's like to hear something like that of the the time with all of them on it, you know, it's pretty pretty obscure, really hard to find. But if you can track that one down, it might require like actual finding like a physical copy.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

But you can't remember what that was cool.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

It was a live album. I forget, I forget what the the actual live recording was, but I do know there is because I I I ended up seeing something from some like group that I'm in on Facebook that's like big into Hendrix. There is apparently documentation of the performance because before I read that, I just listened to the album and I thought like you know it was they were joking around, but it turns out that they were all at this club and performing, and you know, nobody knew who Morrison was at the time. Like Hendricks, Miles, and Joplin knew each other, but then no one knew who like Morrison was at the time. He gets drunk, goes up on stage, and you know, makes a fool out of himself. And and apparently Janice Joplin said something along the lines of you know, I I I I maybe would have done him, but you know, not not like that, you know. You know, so something like I'm definitely not quoting it for Betum, but it's some something along those lines, like like, you know, basically, you know, he's good looking, but you know, what a what an idiot, you know, when he's drunk. So sort of was like along the lines. That that's a it's really hard to find. I don't even know how. Again, like she said, she used to work at a record shop and in the 90s, and and she got the bootleg album of it. So it's not even like an official album album, it's a bootleg album. So that was a little that was a cool find. And then I've had some people like burn me some uh Robin Trower Bridge of Size, which is a phenomenal, totally we want to talk about guitarists uh from the 70s, Bridges Size, one of you know, hearing that guitar moan, you know, a great uh album and guitarist artist, Robin Trower. Uh yeah. Yeah, there's there's just I can talk about music like literally, literally. You know, there's there's it's it's there's so there's so much good music out there, there's so much good stuff.

Merch, Thanks, And Closing Words

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

Hey there, all my fishes in the sea. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode and for being a subscriber. Your continued listenership and support means the most and helps keep the show growing to deeper and deeper depths. I want to let all my guppies in the sea know the fishbowl has now officially partnered with fastcustomshirts.com, where they're now selling custom fishbowl t-shirts under their podcast and website section. Every t-shirt that's purchased helps and goes a long way to keep the show growing to deeper and deeper in higher, higher depths. I also now have custom hats, beanies, handbags, pens, mouse pads, everything to make you look like the coolest looking fish in the sea, which you can DM me directly on Instagram at thefishbowl8 or on Facebook at just the fishbowl, or you can friend request me, Sam Fish, directly and get yours today. Your continued listenership and support again means the most. It's the most important fishes that flock together. We are a school of fish and we keep the unit going. Let's all keep swimming upstream.