The Fisch Bowl

Alexis Humanes Part 1: Stoomfest and the Value of Music

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This rocking episode of the Fisch Bowl is with Alexis Humanes, drummer for the Psych/Prog/Stoner Rock band Sleeping Mountain, and one of the founders of the UK Rock festival, Stoomfest.

We talk about the mission behind Stoomfest: to celebrate and help bring out heavier, obscure, and creative bands and genres to the music world for more ears to listen. We also deep dive into topics such as the rise in technology, the value of music, Pink Floyd, and hope for future generations.

And the best part? This episode is only Part One of our interview, dive in and listen before Part Two!

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Welcome To The Fishbowl

SPEAKER_00

Attention all you fishes in the sea. Welcome to the fishbowl with Sam Dish. Awesome. Alexis Humanis on the Fishbowl. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, hello. How are you doing? Sam? Everything okay?

SPEAKER_00

Excellent. Things are going great. Thank you for taking the time to swim in the bowl with me.

SPEAKER_01

And thanks for inviting me. I really thanks for that opportunity, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, absolutely. I I've been following everything with Sleeping Mountain recently and Stoom Fest, and really excited to talk to you about the band and the festival as well as all like the awesome lineup that I saw already that's supposed to happen. And it's what like 11 days and counting. Yeah, awesome.

Alexis On Growing Up With Music

SPEAKER_00

The first kind of question I have for you is what got you interested in music and like to in general for Sleeping Mountain and your you know passion to put on the festival and uh you know everything kind of related to that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so if if we really go back into the beginning of what why I got into music, I would say it's something really usual that happened. My parents were the reason why, because they were non-stop listening to music in vinyls at home and and dancing with us and and being like really open-minded about different genres of music. I think that's what got me into music, really, you know, and I just followed their path, continue listening to different bands and rediscovering new genres and stuff like that. And Stonefest. So basically, like you said, we have a project called Sleeping Mountain, is a band that we are three in total. The idea of Stonfest emerged because we really wanted to give visibility to our music. The guitarist player of our band, Aitor, he works in in a community of warehouses in in London. And he's a tattoo artist, and in front of his studio, there is a warehouse where he has the capabilities to organize like music events and stuff like that. So he just I remember around November, December, he just had that crazy idea of three years ago. Let's do a festival, guys. Let's do a festival about the music that we know, the music that we listen, and and this kind of niche. And

Why Stoom Fest Exists

SPEAKER_01

let's try to build something different in London. And yeah, we jump into the project three years ago. We were a team, we are a team of four in total, and so far it's been really successful. We are we are really happy because we are creating a strong community, I would say. It's something that is growing in a really healthy way because our ethos is music first, you know. A lot of festivals they start with the idea of how we can do money out of all of this. And for us, it's more about how we can make people to reconnect with bands that they are starting or they are a bit well known into this genre of desert rock, stoner, doom, heavy psych, and how we can do something where the the listeners, the musicians, they will feel really close and connected to each other. So yeah, we part with this like mission and ambition, and so far the experience has been amazing. Of course, it's difficult as well because we all have our independent jobs 20, you know, like 9 to 5, so something that we are more doing in our free time, but definitely something that kind of turned on and spark inside of us of maybe redirecting our lives in that direction because we really feel it's something that we love to do, so yeah. That was the reason we started the Stufest basically.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome, awesome. First of all, it's because of my dad that I'm into music and film the way I am. I'm big into movies and stuff, or especially horror sci-fi and all that. I love I love all sorts of different films, you know. There's not much that uh I'm not a fan of in the film genre. And as far as music goes, you know, my my dad from like an early age, I remember in like you know, kindergarten first grade, he'd pick me up in the minivan and you know, Tommy and and who's next, and like Led Zeppelin, you know, would be playing and the stones and all that, and you know, another big uh big obscure, but really the Mozart of rock and roll, Frank Zappa, my my dad was like really into, and thus, you know, I got into the dead, you know, my dad's a big deadhead, and you know, all all the all like the the major you know prog rock and classic rock movement was all like you know, I grew up on, and then of course I'm like, you know, I was born in '88, so grew up in the nineties around the whole, you know, alternative, you know, rock scene and really nice period of time. Yes, yes, before the chaos of where the world is at now. Yeah. But you know, just I always considered it like the really the the second, you know, very like similar to the 60s, 70s movement, you know, just how there was like a plethora of music then. There was a plethora of music that was like all going on at the same time in the 90s as well. And since then, like my music tastes have really evolved, and it's like I I really, really love like the shoe gaze, dream pop, like psychedelic stuff, and in like kind of retrospect uh you know opposition. I love Doom and you know Stone of Rock and like the heavy, you know, psychedelic stuff. I've had a chance to see uh King Buffalo, which is you know big in the States as far as uh Stone of Rock goes. And you know a radar forest too. Let's see if one late happens as well. Yeah, yeah. I was well, actually, one of my questions was like, You're you're you guys are doing something that one I try to do like with my show with helping like independent artists and kind of more obscure bands. I mean, I I would love to you know build up to the the opportunity to interview people like you know Metallica and and and Anthrax and you know nine inch nails, Trent Reznor, and all those people, but like my kind of mission, same as yours, and and what Stoom Fest is kind of doing is to like help you know one bring like genres of music that are a little more obscure, but you know, if you could bring them to the the attention of really the audience that like you know there, you know, you can build something, you know, really great and essentially bring in like you know the next rock and roll movement or movements, I should say, you know.

Music First And Community Building

SPEAKER_00

So I'm a big like supporter of all that stuff and you know trying trying to do that myself. So yeah, thanks. Thank you very much. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean like like you said, it's it's important, you know, because we live in an era of technology where there is kind of a lot of over information and and kind of I also feel like everything is going so fast, and and the value of music as a sense of art, I think is a bit lost and blurry right now. People don't realize it's a way of expression or release feelings or tell stories or or fight against a political movement or way of thinking. And I feel like there is a lot of bands now that they are taking it more on the business side without understanding they have like a big responsibility of how maybe younger societies will transform with their music as well. I don't know if I am explaining properly myself, but you know, I remember when I was young, like you say, like growing with all of these bands like uh Pink Floyd, uh Fela Kuti, I remember as well, like Led Zeppelin. I was also listening like Limb Biscuit, like different kinds of bands. And they helped me to understand myself and and to to know in which position I am, you know, in that right moment, and and how to to deal with my own battles as well, and understand it that there is more people who pass through the same situations, you know. That's the reason I I really like this genre because it's true that most of the bands are focusing in this kind of field of you know, like folklore and a bit like satanic ritualistic stuff, or even like related with uh smoking and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

But there is another side that is also like talking about how I don't know how to say in English, it's like like the embodiment embodiment of like the the soul kind of like mind, like creativity, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I really like it, you know. I think like music in general, you were mentioning a lot of bands that I grow with, and it's something that I think is really important to continue doing this kind of independent festival for younger generations as well, you know. Like we are lucky enough to have the chance to experience these bands, and I think it's good to give now visibility to the ones that maybe they will be the next ones, you know. Yeah, exactly. And there is massive companies taking lead in all the festivals, and it's a bit of a shame because they have kind of monopoly. But with projects like this, like we are in London, there are like three, four festivals that we do something similar, and and all of us will have an amazing vibe because we know what's the reason we are doing it with for, you know.

Prog Rock Love And King Crimson Cover

SPEAKER_01

Right. Uh hopefully it will continue, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Definitely, definitely. Well, well, you know, on the subject of like uh music and and kind of the classic rock and older bands, I I have to say, out of all the stuff that Sleeping Mountain has put out so far, including the your your you guys debut album, I think my favorite thing that you guys have done is actually covering in Court of the Crimson King.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, really nice cover. That's that's thanks to to Aitor, I would say. He is a really passionate musician that I never saw a person listening to so much music non-stop. Like his his life is always with a band on on the speakers or on the shop or at home with his vinyls, and I think he has a really strong relationship with rogue rock, yeah, and psych rock from you know, like you said mentioned King Crimson, Pink Floyd is one of his favorites, right? Jethro tool as well. You know, he he he grew in that era because we have a 10-year gap. Okay, okay, 10 years older than me. So I think he experienced much more and better all of that transition, you know. He really got time, which I think it makes sense because I am more fan of kind of let's Zeppelin vibes, but he's more of Pink Floyd vibes, you know, like which is cool, it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00

I I I I would say I I'm I'm a little more with him. Yeah, 100%. He likes I like I like Pink Floyd. Like, don't get me wrong, like Zeppelin is one of the most amazing rock bands, legends, you know, gods of you know the the time. But I mean, to be honest, it's like if you listen to all their albums, they kind of have like some a lot of filler music, you know. Yeah pink pink board, it's like it's like we like you started to say, and every things about music, it's like a story, you know, so like all the songs kind of go together. The one person though in that band, and I'm not afraid to badmouth him, is Roger Waters. Gilmore is is the one that that like made the band sound, you know, like totally change the the sound from Sid Barrett to to what like dark side, you know, is and if you listen to dark side, the only goddamn song on there that has no business being there is money, you know. And then it's like ironic how that's like the one song off the album that like you know was what on the the top 100 for like 10 years or something, you know. But like it's the you know, forget what comes before it, but you know, us and them as soon as it transitions into that, it's like yes, we're back on track with what this album is like, you know, so supposed to be, you know, but you know, I'm I'm a big big Floyd person, and in fact, some some people might really uh criticize

Pink Floyd Hype And What Lasts

SPEAKER_00

me on this, but I honestly think the wall is probably their worst album. You know, I I think there's some great tracks off the wall, but in terms of like but that that's the beauty about music, right? Like right, right. It's it's subjective and it's it's everybody gets like something out of it. I need to confess something.

SPEAKER_01

Like I start to listen to Pink Floyd five years ago. Okay, okay, and the reason why is because I saw during my time of listening and discovering bands so many people wearing the t-shirt of Dark Side of the Moon, and so many people telling me you need to listen to Pink Floyd that I got overwhelmed, and I am like, man, if there's so many people telling me means that maybe it's not you know, and it's overhyped or something. Yeah, exactly. And and thanks to Aitor, where he introduced me Pink Floyd in a different way, and also my fiance, who also really likes Pink Floyd. I started to travel with them, I would say, with Pink Floyd, you know, because for me it's like, you know, like you said, is is is really well produced. It's the lyrics are as well really emotional, and I think they have a lot of meaning and power. Like you said, depends on who we are as people. One album could represent more than another because of our experiences, you know. For example, The Wall, I didn't really listen a lot. I know it's a big criticism about the education system. Um they they have the movie which uh which I watch as well, and and I am really impressive as well about the visuals. But for me is Wish You Were Here 100. That's a great album. Uh Life in Pompeii is something incredible as well. What they were able to achieve knowing that they were living in the analogue era, yeah, where the resources to create these kind of sounds and environment is much more difficult than with the technology that we have right now, and people sometimes are not aware of what technology or capabilities they were having before to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Definitely, definitely. And you could you could say that like Pink Floyd and probably you could say like the Velvet Underground and Lou Reed were and you could probably throw Iggy pop in there too, were be like big influences for what like turned in what the genre of like shoe gaze and like dream pop and you know all of that has like evolved into today, and is like almost only getting better and better as it keeps you know evolving, and you know, with like like what you just said with technology, you know, different things you can do with stuff now and effects with different stuff with guitars and different instruments and stuff. And it's it's really interesting. But I mean, I was and again, just back back to prog rock. Like prog rock is one of my all-time favorite genres. Especially, I I it's it's like there's more obscurity, you know, bands in the prog rock genre, especially you know, some today, like I I love Rosalie Cunningham. Oh I I love Bobby Dazzle, nice. Uh, you know, the both those those are I love Blues Pills and the Spiders, and I saw that they're they're gonna be uh actually playing at Stomfest Alana.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. And and it's something that we also want kind of like something that you say about Stofest, like we don't want too close to one genre, because I think like you were saying as well, and I love to know people like that, that they are not only close to okay, I only listen to metal, you know, man. I only listen metal. The rest I'm not interested. I think music is not about that, you know. I can listen an album of a Cuban artist that is just with a guitar, and I can also listen to an electronic band with hundreds of keywords. If it moves me, that's important. That's that's for me the concept of music. If it generates something on me, it means it's made for me to be listened, or I can get what they are trying to transmit. And it's what we try at the Stonefest as well: that we are not gonna be close only to a few genres. We want to expand. You know, we want people to

Mixing Genres And Spotlighting New Bands

SPEAKER_01

show bands that we think they are worth it to listen. Last year we brought one band called Canan, which are like three great musicians that they do stoner prog rock with such a level of emotion and technique that a lot of people were blown away and they didn't know about the band, you know. So I think it's important as well, like for communities that they are maybe close to one niche of music to expand a bit their listening range.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. And and I mean, uh like uh just uh just to say again, uh, you know, I saw Lana is gonna be playing at at the Stoom Fest this year, and I uh to plug their most recent album. I I they switched lead singers, I believe, for for the the new whatever the lineup is, but uh the there are the the most recent album and the f few albums that came out before it's like you know, I think it's great to feature bands like that that you know it's like there you can hear like prod rock, but there's also

SPEAKER_01

like you know fuzz and like yeah don't rock and heavy metal elements and doom elements and you know um you know and and I'm really on this kick right now of like listening to like these types of there you know within these different genres of rock bands that are like back like female vocalists that are backed by like all you know like guys and everything and I think you know that's it's really cool to see like like you know we mentioned before blues pills and I'll throw another one in there the spiders yeah you know super important like you said like it's it's important to give visibility like future is about that as well right like we are transforming and and and we are more open-minded in terms of everything is for everyone and it's good to have this kind of female artist jumping into an industry that it was really restricted to male at the beginning like to be kind of a musician you know it's been for a long time like you are you know a rock star there is no female rock star there was an art a female rock star before and you see a lot of punk bands as well in the UK and Sue gays bands as well and with a lot of female musicians that they are so incredible I think it's a beautiful thing you know because before people were able to you know female and males were listening to the music why they cannot do it you know right right and you know I mean more about the 50s and 60s when it was much more restricted and seeing all of these new bands that they are coming with amazing ideas is I I love it. I love it you know because everything that is related with music for me is kind of how to say is is my therapy. So having people that they are experiencing the same and that they are open-minded and they they can share is is beautiful. It's a really nice film.

SPEAKER_00

So I I I definitely agree and that that's you know again one of my big things is I love interviewing musicians and especially you know people like you and you know in more of the the underground you know indie scenes just to really have raw conversations about music and you know hopes and inspirations for you know bringing in like the next you know hopeful genres of of rock and the movement and everything. Because I I totally agree we're in like a a period where like the mainstream is you know it's very business like it is business like you know you know you kind of have to have the money to you know have everything you know put forth and hosted and press and you know to get the music out there for the streams and everything and you know and it's a balance as well I think right right like people shouldn't lose this the that flame that makes them make music you know exactly like they cannot forget that you are doing it for the soul not for the money right I love that you are talking about this as well because I kind of see now a kind of a movement where people are tired of soulless things and and it's coming back a bit more to the analog way of how music was done before like you said like there is a lot of sue gays going on now there is a lot of punk bands now at least in UK that they are doing again again like this kind of trusty punk and um and it's lovely to see that this is happening you know and of course now we have all the resources and we need to understand like you say that it's a business and at the end of the day you need to have food on the on the plate right but but it must be always a balance like you never need to forget the the young adult inside of you who was dreaming about these things you know right right now and and you know I specifically like the the the there's like it's not like there's the the UK the EU there's a lot of big awesome music movement going on in Australia and New Zealand as well you know and really I kind of see I kind of this some is going on in the US but definitely not as prominent as I would say in in the the different areas I just mentioned before but specifically I'm really connected with friends on Facebook and everything with bands from the UK and Glasgow Ireland area there's a a band I interviewed while back fantastic kind of band and the uh the new one of the newest genres of rock that just kind of became is becoming prominent is new wave grunge speaking of all the 90s stuff we talked about they're called Strangers with guns. Nice they they sound like a mixture of like Allison Chains and like the Melvins and black flag and all that amazing combinations. Yeah yeah uh definitely yeah those guys I mean they they they have a phenomenal sound and then there's there's another band I'm friends with from the Glasgow area they're now in think of some somewhere in Asia doing a lot of touring with another band I interviewed the first one is called Geography of the Moon and uh they're kind of like sounds very like uh kind of like the breeders and different stuff they're a couple and the the they just put out another album and there's just like so many just like really great great bands in in the UK right now and I've I follow all like the the labels over there like heavy psych sounds and you know fuzz club records and you know in the states we have like Little Cloud Records and Rise Above Records and you know do you see a tendency now where because maybe it's my impression but maybe I am wrong I want to share that with you maybe you share the same point do you think it's growing back all of this do you see I do we are experiencing the beginning of a wave that is going again up I I I honestly think we we are in we are definitely starting to experience like I see like a multitude of different genres kind of like emerging there's the new wave grunge there's the stoner

Streaming, Vinyl Revival, And The Next Wave

SPEAKER_00

rock fuzz you know psych rock all that there's the shoe gaze game pop movement that is really big right now and then there's another big movement that I've I've seen over the last couple years that's coming back in a only growing in a bigger way which I think the only way I can like describe it is like retro 60s revival it's a lot of lot of bands that uh like actually in the UK they just put out their debut album plug them because I'm in talks of trying to get them on the show the crystal teardrop the crystal teardrop I will I will listen to them as well. They're they're UK as well and just put out their debut album and it's on band camp shout out to them and plugging them and the whole album is like a 60s fusion like psychedelic that's nice that's nice all the stuff with like a centaur and you know stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01

So nice that he's coming back I have a theory is because of I have a sister who is like seven years younger than me. 34 she's now 27 okay young young generation like it's not young young now but but I remember when she was on her 20s and I was yeah 27 that generations are again to be a bit more lost yeah it seems like um when there is this kind of collective I don't I don't want to call it depression but collective misunderstanding of fulfillment you know or collective feeling of what is the reason I am here what should I do what you know like I I can feel is when this kind of music again is coming back because it's a way for people to to reconnect and to express and and to find kind of a guidance you know that there is more people outside like I don't know what do you think but I I really feel we can see like you said that right now we are living an era that there's so many things happening in the whole planet that they are so chaotic and so confusing and always like you know news and stuff like that is is constantly triggering you with with not positive way of thinking and and only like catastrophes and stuff that as that maybe we are more adults we are able to extrapolate that but younger generations is like where where I am you know like what I am so so is this kind of global crisis are a perfect space for bands of these kind of genres to grow again because right I think that's the field that they touch.

SPEAKER_00

You know what I mean kind of definitely and and actually I'll comment on that because I'm like you know I guess three three years older than you and I I have what I remember like I was young enough and to like remember like where I was when when I heard Kirk Cobain died you know and and I was like young enough to remember the whole like Biggie Tupac thing. And I remember it was I guess the MTV I forget it was the music awards and the movie awards where the two mothers of Biggie and Tupac came out and did this whole thing that was to show unity and everything and to say like you know stop the violence it's it needs to be about music and where where it started and I remember all that I remember Lane Staley dying. I remember hearing like all these you know all the the heroes of the the the the 90s movement all dying you know and but I and I but I also remember like the the transition afterwards you know and there was like the again the business trying to capitalize on grunge so then you had post grunge which was all like nickelback and creed and just like the ugh you know of like of like that genre and and then you know like I remember the white stripes was like a breath of fresh air jack white you know it was like in a time where people thought rock and roll was like dead you know he was like essentially the Stevie Ray Vaughn you know of of like that era and I also have to kind of emphasize that like the internet you know like so many big musicians of the 90s and in the 80s you know like Henry Rollins commented on it a lot the internet is what all those like big names of like the 80s and 90s talk about like that was quote unquote the death of not just rock and roll but music in general and I I think we're we're like the internet was streaming and everything really hit in like the the the 2000s not the 2010s but like the early 2000s some of it was with Napster some of it was with I forget what the other one was but you know there were all these different like downloading services right right that you could download music for free with torrents and stuff and then you had like the next step which was like Spotify and Bandcamp and SoundCloud.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah yeah yeah yeah it transformed everything as well right and and I think I think it is uh it took like basically a good 20 years now kind of like 25 to really reset like have music totally reset itself and have like to basically allow the next movement to happen and because of that and because of like you know young people like like your like in our age and like your sister's age and stuff that essentially like you said don't have you know there there's no musical heroes anymore there's no you know like there's no Lennon's there's no you know Frank Zappa's there's no Kirk Cobain's you know I I I think with like the age of the internet and streaming and stuff like that it it basically took the underground because it always starts with you like the the whole grunge movement was underground in the 80s and then just by luck with with you know Nirvana with smells like team spirit overnight it became the the globally the the new the new wave and I think that like we are in fact just in the the early stages of like not just like one specific movement where it's like grunge and you know the the gangster rap or rap for the time like in the 90s where like in getting ready for like everything that's going on in the world like you said and you know all that like where the underground is getting ready to explode yeah and and I think like it's interesting all all of these facts that you are mentioning because what I I'm I'm studying music music industry I am doing music industry business and and I really look at the insights and everything and something common like you said this 20 years gap where it was a transition between Napster's downloads to streaming platforms yeah people lost the sense of value right of being part of something somehow yeah it transformed before you were buying a vinyl or a city and you were having something from them you know exactly where now with Spotify and things like that like there is no value there there is value for the consumer because you you have access to absolutely everything but you don't you are not part of something right you you are like everybody else like everyone can do the same thing that you are doing so statistics in vinyls for example in the last two years they are selling a lot of more vinyls than in the last yeah 15 17 years again which is like you said is you can see like how again the the the how to say in English the sand clock is turning around again right right the people are tired of of all of this and they are again coming back to to all of this which is super important. So I I really think the point that you address about all of this is is is true.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely and and like I I'm like I'm happy that like I'm still you know I'm in the later half of my 30s but I'm still like in my youth like young enough that I can still go see these bands if if I want you know and and you know at the very and even I mean and actually because of technology I'm like in an even better scenario because I can reach out to people like you and all the bands that I've had on my show and I can talk to them face to face you know you know you know in a whole nother country you know time zone and everything and have a conversation about you know music and the future and the past and the present you know and all that and the business and the future of the business and the future of like underground and just everything about you know music and and these like these you know niches genres that are going to be the next you know wave of of like rock and roll and you know it's it's for people like us to be able to help you know those people and people like yourself and by by putting on stoom fest and me you know uh having people come on the show and talk about music and help promote their stuff and I have like an analogy for the fishbowl and that'll lead into my next question for you which is like you know the fishbowl you know there's is like the is like the ocean you know and in this in the ocean there's all these different fish you know and sea creatures and they all coexist and everybody has a purpose you know and there's you know not not one single creature in the sea is independent from you know all the other coexisting creatures the metaphor I guess is like we can all coexist and help each other and you know promote each other in like a you know school of fish you know the double pond you know system I get it it's it's what I like from that analogy as well is kind of if maybe you kill one type of fish you will damage a lot the ecosystem so it's important like you said about that balance that everyone can still develop their stuff you know right is is it's yeah it's it's like that I think in society as well. Definitely it's it's good it's good that as well we are lucky to at the same time to live in an era where in in our cases of of more western civilizations we are really able to express ourselves and being able to try more disruptive genres of music and you know and explore these kind of alternatives without anyone pointing at us or anything you know definitely well there there are still other things for improvement of course right you know but yeah I think we are lucky and and we are lucky to see young generations as well taking the lead on on on keep creating music which which is key I think I don't know where I heard that but something like what will be a world without

Fishbowl Metaphor And Support The Show

SPEAKER_00

music hey there all my fishes in the sea thanks for tuning into today's episode and for being a subscriber your continued listenership and support means the most and helps keep the show growing to deeper and deeper depths I want to let all my guppish in the sea know the Fishbowl has now officially partnered with FastCustomshirts.com where they're now selling custom fishbowl t-shirts under their podcast and website section. Every t-shirt that's purchased helps and goes a long way to keep the show growing the deeper and deeper in higher higher depths. I also now have custom hats, beanies handbags pens mouse pads everything to make you look like the coolest looking fish in the sea which you can DM me directly on Instagram at the fishbowl88 or on Facebook at just the fishbowl or you can friend request me Sam Fish directly and get yours today. Your continued listenership and support again means the most it's the most important fishes that flock together we are a school of fish and we keep the unit going let's all keep swimming upstream

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