TIM JOHNSON (Spiritual Warfare: How to Resist the Devil and Step Into Our Calling)

Are you vulnerable to a demonic attack? Have you fully stepped into your calling? As promised, here is the second interview with Tim Johnson (Pastor at Pfrimmer's Chapel and the co-founder of The Joshua Center)! For two hours we dig into the meaning of spiritual warfare, the spiritual realm, and what distracts us from following Jesus? I hope you enjoy this podcast!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Well, listen, it's 2026, and I am really excited to be starting 2026 with a conversation today about spiritual warfare. I wore my red. So I guess bring the fire.

Setting The Stage: 2026 And Warfare

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Let's do it. Yeah, the blood. Um and so um I wore purple because Kingly. Kingly. Okay, that's good. I thought you just liked the color.

SPEAKER_08 0:25

I like purple, but but but I like I wore it because I thought, okay, King Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

That's it. Royalty. Royalty, maybe. That's right. So Tim Johnson is here. If you don't know who Tim is, uh Tim's a pastor of uh Firmers Chapel in Indiana. Uh he runs co I think you're co-founder of the Joshua Center, and uh you are an author. So the last time you were here, I think it was exactly a year ago.

SPEAKER_06 0:48

Yeah, I think it was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

It was a year ago, and it was awesome. So I had led a class on the Holy Spirit with your book, The Person in the Power. It's really a devotional, like research type.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Devotional Bible study.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Yeah, devotional Bible study. That's a great way to word it. And so uh we had you because everybody loved it so much. We had such a great time. And but now you've written writing. You're writing. Okay. You're not done yet.

SPEAKER_08 1:14

Not done yet. Okay. So the deadline is uh you can pray for me because the deadline is March 1st. Okay. And uh there's a little bit to do still. But it it is tracking the spirit through Romans. So starting Romans 1 all the way through the end of Romans and uh every chapter, very similar format, a little bit different, because um what we found at the Joshua Center that we'll talk about throughout the weekend here, but is just the depth of the scriptures that we leave on the table. We just don't dig deep.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:40

And so the Josuha Center kind of helps people dig into the Word of God by the by the power of the Spirit of God. And so uh

Meet Tim Johnson And His Work

SPEAKER_08 1:46

we'll as that so that book, the devotional book, it'll be devotional slash Bible study, but we'll be looking at Greek and Hebrew terms. Uh I love it. I know, I know. Word studies. Your people love they grew to love word studies.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

They hated it in the beginning.

SPEAKER_08 1:59

That's right. I remember that.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

And then they loved it because once you get like because we're not, we don't live back, we don't understand those languages, and they don't fully express like we in our English language doesn't fully express the meaning of a lot of things. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_08 2:14

Yeah, and I and I just want to say a shout out to Ovido, because we love you guys. Uh, not just because we get to spend a week in Florida in January every year, because this is the third year that I've been here uh in between the GMC conference and then last year and then this year. But you all just have just been such good partners, co-labours in the kingdom. And as you all were working through the book, it's just such an honor, such a blessing. Because you all had that Bible study, and you took it serious. I mean, you all you all did it right. You all did a year-long study. Yes, we did. And you graduated. You had like certificates for it. We had certificates. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

I mean, I think there were 35 people. I had it on two nights. Yep. So that everybody who wanted to go. So I had it on a Tuesday night and a Wednesday night. And yeah, they were ready. They came in with their books and Bibles and yes.

SPEAKER_08 3:03

We were, I was, and I was blessed to get to chat with them in January when I was here last year to present to the class a little bit. I just so humbling and so honoring. I mean, I'm just I'm just a goober from Kentucky, and I get to write a book, and then the next book coming up, and I'm thinking, Lord, what are you doing? I'm supposed to be preaching and teaching. Excuse me. And he's saying, write a book, like what? Then write a second one. Why? So, but I am so blessed. You all, seriously, you all, my wife and my family and my church knows about Ovito very, very well.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Yeah. Well, that's awesome. We love you guys too. And appreciate you. Um, you know, we I'm

Digging Deeper: Word Studies And Romans

SPEAKER_03 3:36

hoping that today, and just if people are listening, let's say, on a podcast and they don't see what's going on here, you're here for the weekend because you're leading a conference. Um, and I'm so it's like starting tonight and then all day Saturday and Saturday night. Then you're gonna preach at church on Sunday. Um, and we really believe that when we come together in that way and we learn more about the word and the Holy Spirit that God and we're hungry that that the Lord really does speak and it's uh we're excited about it. I mean, it's our church, but there's some people from other churches coming too. So yeah, sweet. We're thrilled.

SPEAKER_08 4:13

Yeah, we're blessed, we're honored.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

So so all right, so let's get into spiritual warfare. We talked about it.

SPEAKER_08 4:20

Easy stuff.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Yeah, so easy. Fluffing stuff.

SPEAKER_08 4:22

This is a fluffin' stuff. That's why I call fluffing stuff. Fluffing stuff. Easy peasy.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

We talked about this the last time you were here and said we wanted to do one on spiritual warfare. And and then you said the other day, you're like, it's so big. What do you want to what do you want to what do you want to talk about? And I thought, my experience, first of all, is that I'm just gonna say the word Methodists in my experience, not all of them, but um, have have kind of shied away from discussions about it, mainly out of misunderstanding or fear, whatever it is. And so I thought, well, why don't we start kind of at the beginning? What the spiritual realm and the fall and those kinds of things. So let me you can start where you want, but you know, maybe we start there first.

SPEAKER_08 5:08

So can I tell the story I told you I'd tell you? You can tell this is for you. We can delete anything we so um yeah, I completely hear you, Patina, about the Methodist thing. And again, uh I I'm very grateful for my time in the Methodist Church. I have nothing disparaging to say of the Methodist Church. I I'm not a I'm not a hater. I don't know. Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Yeah, I just not well I am a global Methodist.

SPEAKER_08 5:33

Exactly, yeah, exactly. And and so, but I was a United Methodist, we disability, we stayed uh as an independent at the time. So, and we still are at Firmer Chapel. But but in my I I would agree that not only Methodists, but a lot, a lot, a lot of folk, they take the two extremes, right? We've talked about this. Um it's either this complete neglect, and I think you even mentioned maybe fear. Yeah. And I think that's a great point to talk about later on, because I think there's this great fear of s of of the enemy and of spiritual warfare. But then there's also this overemphasis. There's this, I call it the pendulum effect. If you imagine the grandfather clock, right? And and we'll go from one side to the other, and and Jesus walked the middle. He just really walked the middle. He was able to, I think that's what confounded the Pharisees and scribes so many times. I think that's also what drew the when when people said he talked and spoke with authority, I think that was part of it. But when he holds up a coin and they're trying to trap him with taxes, and he says, Whose image is this, right? And uh and then they ask questions and he asked the question in return and they couldn't answer him. I think he walked right in that duality of not too fast, not too far to one side, not too far to the other. I think of all the things we have got to learn how to walk in in the middle.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Totally agree.

SPEAKER_08 6:49

It's spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_05 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 6:51

Because one area or the other is dangerous.

SPEAKER_05 6:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 6:53

It really is. And I think the enemy loves both.

SPEAKER_05 6:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 6:56

If we go to the excess and Satan's behind the devil's behind every bush and and and we have to yell louder than the enemy, I don't like that theology where we have to yell louder than the enemy. But then over here, where we just simply it's it doesn't exist, or we don't want it to exist, or because we don't understand it, it's too complicated because it really isn't. It can go really deep. Right. There's lots and lots of levels, but I think you're right. At the very beginning, I think we have to go. Um, and so this this moment. So I'm a brand new United Methodist pastor. I am 20, I'm I've been saved for 29 years, I think. Uh yeah, 29 years. And um, and well, yeah, 29 years, oh 30 years next year. So 29 years now, 28 years as a pastor. So this is my twenty this is 27 years ago, Petina. I am a small church pastor in southern in northern Kentucky, and this little tiny church, and we came together on a Sunday night for a uh kind of a tri-county, it's called a tri-county service. So we had three different counties involved, eight different churches, all you know, Methodist. And so we show up, probably 60 people on a Sunday night. There's three other pastors, me and a couple other pastors together. And so it was in my church, so which was my ownership of this, okay? So we'll skip a few details, but there is a woman who had just come. I won't mention the name because I don't want anyone to assign anything to the name of the person who was doing the conference. A very large name, even to still today, and they've been around for a long, long time. I don't think, I think this person's ministry is legit. But whatever the case, they were at this large conference led by this very, very famous person that everyone would know. And the explanation is they they got prayed over by someone. Someone came and laid hands on them and prayed over them during because at some point during the

Conference Weekend And Expectations

SPEAKER_08 8:45

conference, they said, Hey, grab your neighbor, even if you don't know them, and pray for them. Okay. So this woman comes to our small tri-county service on Sunday night. I think it was March, cold night. They came out, and all of a sudden during the worship, now worship in a small country church at this point was a piano slightly off key. Oh, yeah, a whole bunch of really bad singers, and you know, how great thou art. Okay. And every now and then acapella, as I like to say, acapulco. And so just so it wasn't like praise team.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

No, it didn't exist back then.

SPEAKER_08 9:20

It didn't exist, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 9:21

Um watch it now.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

But uh I'm back then too.

SPEAKER_08 9:26

So so the worship was just it was just hymns, right? Just hymns. So get the picture, right? Old country church, eight different churches involved. I I I I live three of them myself. So uh circuit pastor, right?

SPEAKER_05 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 9:42

And all of a sudden, this woman who'd been to this conference, who had been set free, apparently, okay, gets up from the middle of the back aisle and she starts moving. Now, in a Methodist church, when you're singing how great they are or whatever, and you start selling, it's either going to be an usher or some kid going to the bathroom. A middle-aged woman walking up to the front is a little bit now. Everyone's kind of watching, right? She starts dancing, Patina. You got the picture, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:12

I do.

SPEAKER_08 10:13

Old fashioned, traditional, very, very country church. And here's a woman starts dancing in the middle of the in the front of everyone, starts twirling. I'm sitting in the back thinking, okay, I am, I'm, I'm, I think I just, I'm a I'm a month in the seminary. I'm a month in the seminary. I'm about eight months born again. I don't know nothing about nothing, right? I've read the Bible maybe, maybe most of the way through. I just went into ministry. Somebody should be watching what I preach because I don't even know what I'm preaching. And so I'm watching it, and I'm just watching this person begin to twirl. She began to twirl faster and faster to how great they are. I mean, whatever the song was, and she's twirling. And I've got a couple people back here who are who are kind of more of a little bit charismatic slant, and they're back there saying, Amen. Well, that's not again, that's just not standard, and it's just not SOP, standard operating procedures. And so this woman begins to dance. It was

Why Spiritual Warfare Divides Christians

SPEAKER_08 11:10

almost, Petina, at some point, and I'm very careful with this, but it was almost supernaturally demonically too fast.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

You don't have to be careful. I understand.

SPEAKER_08 11:19

I know, I know, but just for the re for the listeners and for the watchers.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:23

And and this is brand new for me.

SPEAKER_05 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:25

And since then, literally hundreds and hundreds of spiritual warfare moments. Yeah. Right? Including being punched by invisible forces.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_08 11:34

And there is a realm. Yes, there is. We're gonna talk about that. But so here's this woman twirling to the point where she's just spinning. I mean, uh this is I mean, uh not like exorcists, but kind of like, I mean, she's just spinning and spinning. Then she starts speaking in an unknown language. Okay. Wow. But it's very, it's very harsh. And the it's there's a there's a growl.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_08 11:56

There's a growl.

unknown 11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:58

So this language is coming out with a growl and she's spinning. It's in my church. It's on my watch. It's on my watch, right? I'm saying, I don't know what to do. I am clueless. You can tell everybody's uncomfortable. Ain't nobody singing how great they're no more. All the singing has stopped. The piano player has kind of stopped. And they're just like, they're just watching this woman dance, twirl around, and and finally she just collapses, she falls. Now I've got a couple people back here saying, well, that's okay. She's slain in the spirit. I'm thinking, I don't really know those terms at that point, but I'm sitting there thinking, I don't, I don't think that's it. I my my discernment, we talked about this just a moment ago. I think the key to spiritual warfare is real maturity and real discernment, and both have to be grounded and founded in the Word of God and led by the Spirit of God. And so I finally go up there and there's a couple of people saying, no, no, no, let her rest, you know, thinking, I don't think this is of God. I just it just didn't seem, it didn't seem like it was from God, right? Yeah. And so we'll walk up and she's still making the noise, she's still growling. Again, true story. Just three other now, two other pastors, named was Bill and Jeff. So Bill, Pastor Bill, Pastor Jeff, and myself were kind of kneeling next to her. Eyes are in the back of the head.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 13:13

And she's saying, We're trying to now. Jeff kind of took the lead. At that point, we're all three like blind mice, you know, trying to figure out. But Jeff at least kind of took the lead. He took, I'll never forget it. In these Methodist churches, you got the picture, right? I just want to paint this picture. There's this big, large gold cross on the altar. Can you see it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like it weighs like 15 pounds. He grabs this cross. I'm thinking, are you gonna hit her? I mean, what are you gonna do? So he's like holding the cross over her.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

He's like doing an exercise.

SPEAKER_08 13:46

He's holding the cross over her. And I'm like, I'm seriously, I'm like, I'm not in the help at all. I got my Bible out. Yeah. I think I'm trying to like pray. I'm watching. We got finally I stand up and I make the announcement that okay, guys, just there's refreshments downstairs. That's what I said. There's cookies and punch downstairs. We're gonna invite you to go downstairs.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

We're doing something else up here.

SPEAKER_08 14:06

Service is over for now. Uh, and of course, like half the people stayed. Because, you know, when there's a there's a train wreck or when there's a car wreck, they're gonna watch around. They're gonna stay and watch. So here's Jeff. He's got the uh Bill's got the holy water. Literally, he goes and I think it goes to the bathroom. No, no, no, it's not, it's tap water.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

I was like, you got holy water.

SPEAKER_08 14:25

What are we turning into? Tap water prayed over. I think so he's like throwing water over. We have no clue. This is like, Laurel, this is like the three stooges, okay? This is like the episode that we did.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

That's good though, but you knew.

SPEAKER_08 14:37

Well, and so, and I'm over here back in the back, just kind of I'm praying. I

A Startling Church Encounter

SPEAKER_08 14:41

think I actually went to Psalm 91, um, uh where the Lord protects you and watch over you and sends his angels, and I'm just praying in Psalm 91. But her eyes went in the back, Betina, and she began to. This is the freakiest part. And I just don't think you can make this up, right? I just this is the stuff that people like listen to. And right now, I bet whoever's listening, whoever's watching, you're already formed an opinion, haven't you?

SPEAKER_04 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 15:06

Right? Someone there there's no there's no middle there's no middle in this.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 15:11

You're either like, he's a nut.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 15:14

Or, yeah, I want to listen more.

SPEAKER_05 15:16

Right.

SPEAKER_08 15:17

It's not like and maybe there might be a few like, well, let me keep listening in there might, but you've already formed an opinion on spiritual warfare or demonics. Right. You've already, because you've watched the movies or you've seen supernatural series or these things that you've got in theology, that's not from the word of God. So last part of the story is, and this is the freakiest part. Um, I actually been down at one point. Uh I I call her an aim out, and I I won't say it here, but I call her an aim out, and I say, you know, I'll say Sally. Sally, I want to pray with you. If if if that's okay. Now, Jeff's still got the cross. The bill I think is done dousing her, but I'm over there. I said, Okay, I'm I'm just gonna pray with you. So I began to pray, and she began to say, or the demon began to say, Jesus. Like growl, Jesus. Not Jesus, but Jesus. Like I couldn't pronounce the J. And growling. I mean it was freaky.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 16:14

And I didn't know what to do except just keep praying. And finally she convulsed.

SPEAKER_05 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 16:19

And I guess the spirit came out. Because now she remembers that. She went through counseling. What's interesting is uh we we suggested some really deep counseling afterward. Because I think sometimes, you know, y you don't even know what to do in the moment. You sure don't want to do afterward, right?

SPEAKER_05 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 16:36

Uh I will say she is uh uh after I haven't talked to her in years, but the the time that I was there as a pastor there for three or four years, she got very, very healed. Uh she remembered the moment, but she's she she still persisted that she had no control and she felt like that something had taken a hold of her.

SPEAKER_05 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 16:56

So I mean, there's a whole lot right there just to kind of disseminate. But one thing is I didn't know what to do. And but the second thing is there was some level of discernment from the Holy Spirit. Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Do you remember? So I I want to put this out there because what kept going through my mind was that story about the woman who kept following Paul.

SPEAKER_08 17:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

And she kept saying the truth.

SPEAKER_08 17:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, you represent whatever it was, the most high God.

SPEAKER_08 17:22

The most high, yep.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

And then Paul eventually turned around and rebuked Satan and the demon left her. So so the point is that sometimes there are things like, for example, her going up to the front and looking like she's worshiping, but it became a distraction to what God was trying to do, right? And so then so those are the discerning moments going, is this because I've had people, I had a guy at my previous shirts just yelling out. And I and nothing happened as a result. But I remember thinking to myself, not not that there's I'm not saying there's anything wrong with saying hallelujah and I mean I'm all about that, but there is a difference. Like there's a difference between how it's done.

SPEAKER_08 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

And it becomes and that's what I felt like with their and then the growling and all that.

SPEAKER_08 18:11

I mean, that's classic It is demonic. You know, one of the things you talk about, you know, it's we're not against amens and hallelujahs. In fact, they feed us. I mean, I know your style of preaching and teaching is probably similar to mine, but we like engagement. We don't like a silent crowd.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 18:28

And uh, if there's a silent crowd, I'm not sure they're getting it.

SPEAKER_05 18:31

Right.

SPEAKER_08 18:31

And I want enthusiasm, I want engagement. And so, but there is reading the room, I call it reading the room. And I think when when the room isn't read well, there's either one of two things maybe happening, one is just simply immaturity, right? But the other one is maybe some distraction from an enemy. Um, because one of the things I think one of the greatest things he does, you know, we we see these movies, and and I think a lot of I I say all the time to the church at Firmer Chapel and to the Jostler Center, the the training center we do, we've got to be really careful where we get our theology. Our theology is a mixed bag, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 19:04

And and and if it's not solely, solely from the word of God first.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 19:09

Man, that and we talk about this, I think, even last year. Our theology is just we start mixing and matching, yeah, it's dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

It is dangerous.

SPEAKER_08 19:17

Because then we really don't have any good grounding.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

What is our foundation? Yeah, so go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 19:22

I just want to read this quote. I want this listen to this quote from AW uh AW2 Tozer, my man. Listen to this. I just I think it's a great quote. The idea that this world is a playground instead of a plague instead of a battleground has now been accepted in practice by the vast majority of Christians. Oh and for it, we are in a dangerous place. The idea that this world is a playground instead of a battleground has now been accepted in practice by the vast majority of Christians. And for it, we're in a dangerous place. I I think that's one of the quotes that kind of shaped me early, early on, Betina, knowing that this is a we talk about realms. I'd love to hear uh your thoughts about realms because I I think we get so egocentric and so kind of tied in with our own cocoon. We kind of live in our own little bubble and we don't realize there really is another realm.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 20:14

And the other realm, if we're honest, is probably more real than the real than the realm we live in. We we live in an earthly realm. And and we can, you know, the chair and the flesh and and these things are all tangible things. But this does pass. At some point, this will pass. There'll be a new heaven and new earth. But the spiritual realm remains. Right. And and I think um I I think for us to understand that, I and I think I think that's the part, wouldn't you agree? That's the part that kind of scares us sometimes. I also think that's also the the confusing part is this these two realms.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Well, it's a I look at it as um what's the oh, what's the show? Um, the series. They just had the ending of it. Um what is it, Damien? What's the show? Stranger Things.

SPEAKER_08 21:01

Oh, yeah, yeah. So Stranger Things has the upside down, right? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

So I a couple years ago I preached a sermon on that because there's another realm, you know. Um, but the realm, I'm sorry, I've got something in my throat. The realm, the spiritual realm isn't all evil, right? Absolutely not. And so, and Paul talks about it, and and you know, and even the old testament talks about it. Um, and I and I wanted to say this just real quick. Um I began to understand and I realize it now. The first time that I encountered the bad side of the spiritual realm, the demonic side, was right after I got saved. I was 14 and I was I didn't know it at the time, but I was reading the Bible. My parents weren't home, I was the only one there, sitting on the couch, and all I heard was you're not saved. This isn't real, you know, and for the like 30 minutes. Straight and I didn't so when my dad my mom and dad walked in and I was crying and my dad they said what's wrong and I told him and my father said um that's not true that's all he said that's not true and immediately it went away like I mean instant and so that was a very very and that was so small but then the other time where I really realized there was a spiritual realm in a negative way because I had all this other inf data from like from God speaking to me of different things

Discernment Over Spectacle

SPEAKER_03 22:33

but I still didn't fully understand it but somebody um I was interacting with was they looked like they had been vexed if you've ever seen like Lord of the Rings and that king who had that look on his face and this person went into this deep depression I was praying for them never even thinking about anything and in prayer um out of the blue I had a vision of a demonic of a demon attached to this person who was a Christian on their back and I freaked out I was like I don't know what to do with this what do I do with this and so then I began praying and praying in a different way than I'd ever prayed before so that's how I began just learning you know was uh was through prayer and reading the Bible and interacting with and being involved in certain situations.

SPEAKER_08 23:28

So I you know I oh my gosh I mean there's like 45 things you just said um oppression possession yeah right big difference um I really do believe and so even like when you said so I'm gonna go all the way back to when you said you weren't sure you were saved 14 years old then you were saved but then you thought you weren't saved.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Right.

SPEAKER_08 23:48

Um and you said not to pick on what you said but you said not necessarily a big deal. However, isn't that the biggest deal yeah if if if the enemy can convince you you're not saved.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 23:57

Last year I was here, felt compelled and and we'll talk a bit a little bit about that this time sinner versus saint. Yeah oh yeah you did I I want to tell you Petina I I believe with all my heart it's it is one of the it has become the foundational teaching of the Joshua Center. I really believe it's spiritual warfare when the enemy keeps us thinking we're sinners what in the world did the cross do? What did the blood accomplish literally dozens upon dozens upon dozens of scriptures. I I was at a conference I we helped lead a conference in uh in northern Indiana a few a few months ago and a man shared a testimony and the testimony was this uh he said Pastor Tim I just want to respectfully disagree about sinner versus saint um I don't think we're saints uh not after we're saved we're still sinners and uh and I I I just my my comment usually is I'm never suggesting that we saints can't sin but sin nature and sin habit are two very different things right the sin nature is a thing that's been eradicated yeah otherwise I'm not sure what all these scriptures mean about being born again and being a new creator yeah exactly for 2 Corinthians 517 and so so we're he he shared the testimony he teaches and so here's the thing he's taught Sunday school for 42 years at this church okay and this is his testimony he believes this this is what he believes at the end of time exact quote okay at the end of time he said I'm gonna show it before God like we all will granted amen yeah exact quote he said and God's gonna humiliate me one more time what does that mean he's gonna humiliate me one more time he said God's gonna show me all my sins and then in an act of mercy say but John I have forgiven them yeah that's that's not biblical that's not biblical think about the life you live now yeah and think about the the image of God you have yeah who's behind that the devil 100% that's spiritual spiritual warfare is not you know stranger things and and super the the series supernatural and and exorcisms and and and you were talking about the Catholic church earlier you know they got they got one of my dear friends in Chicago his title is the director of supernatural warfare that's his title in the Catholic Church yeah I mean they

Playground Or Battleground

SPEAKER_08 26:15

they do have that supernatural warfare yeah and so I just think that we've just we've we've heightened it to the point or we've lessened it to the point and we just don't know the biblical foundation. So I think I I really do think this is part one of 30 because I think there's so much there but I do think that people just miss it. One of the greatest greatest greatest tactics of the enemy he's the shrewdest scripture says he was the shrewdest of all creatures okay and and we can talk about the fall we can talk about how we think Ezekiel talks about it Isaiah talks about it you know we put pieces together Revelation talks about it so you put all the pieces together you you get a you get an idea of kind of what happened before the we think you know before the fall of man was the fall of Satan and about that same time we don't know exactly when they both happened but we do know that the enemy was in the garden with a sole purpose of bringing mankind down. Yeah and he did. Yeah how he questioned the word of God did God really say that so we got to know the word and then second he started putting doubt right am I saved?

SPEAKER_03 27:14

And he took something God said by the way and twisted it just a little bit.

SPEAKER_08 27:20

I call it heresy you know it's like a little pretzel. Yeah heresy is I mean pretzels are I like pretzels but but but that it's it's just a little twist. But a little twist on the pure word of God becomes becomes heresy. Yeah. And so Satan is not all about the the the the the glitz and the glamour and the show he'd rather be in the background.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Well and I that's why I mentioned the thing in the beginning after I first got saved because it's the it's the little thing it doesn't have to be the big you know now the woman twirling around she she probably had some type of abuse in her life or something like that that happened.

SPEAKER_08 27:56

That's really good.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

She it came out in counseling yeah very good yeah that's good so opened up those doors you know a lot of times people have that unforgiveness and all that exactly so so that's when those things happen. But there's a lot like the so I was thinking about this before we said and I want to get into like the basics but um so you know why is he so interested in throwing us off you know if he can get us to think incorrectly then we won't be confident and we won't we won't be able to lead others into an the knowledge of Christ and we won't be victorious and go ahead you're no no no no no I'm just I'm just I'm sitting here amen and because um how many people do you think Petina in your ministries of all your ministry years give me a percentage how many people do you think truly answered the call that God gave on their life and walked in their spiritual gifting okay give me a percentage a percentage of how many how many actually did that I mean maybe five percent wow five percent maybe not even double digits not many right so so five percent yeah in your whole ministry answered their call you their unique call which is irrevocable yeah exactly once and their call and their gifts that are distributed by the one and only Holy Spirit for you for their unique DNA and for their time and purpose on this earth yeah to give glory to God and to serve the king and it says to serve the benefit to benefit the edification of the church to build up the church Ephesians 4 says yes so 5% of the 100% of the people right so which means what 95% believe something different. Absolutely exactly and that and so they don't crippling the church that's crippling the church 100% crippling the church and it devastates it's devastating if you think about it. I mean and I see and I know you do too I see people all the time you're like I just like I feel like I know we're the same Pastor Brian like we're pouring we're pouring in we're pouring in like we want people to understand that we want them to walk in the wholeness and the fullness of the like the first step is being becoming whole allowing the spirit to heal but you know what I say and I'm gonna just put it

Stories Of Attack And Authority

SPEAKER_03 30:14

out there I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. That's why I understand that woman twirling is because if I did not forgive and allow the spirit of God to fill the the broken it makes me cry the broken places in my soul even though I was saved if I didn't do what he asked me to do and forgive I would not be doing what I'm doing today. There's no doubt there's no doubt. So you know yeah that so I think a lot of people get wrapped up in in what their purpose is in this world rather than in the kingdom of God. So they're going to school they're trying to make money they're being distracted you know all of that.

SPEAKER_08 30:58

And again we'll get to the basics I think here in just a moment but but I think this is basics. I I think just to kind of uncover to reveal the enemy works in darkness. And that's why because it even says in Corinthians that he masquerades as an angel of light.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 31:14

Well the reason he has to masquerade as an angel of light is because he is the Prince of Darkness. Yeah. So if there's a prince of peace and a prince of light then there's also a prince of darkness. And one of the things I learned in seminary first thing in seminary I was so so critically understanding and I was such a newbie when I came to seminary I didn't know nothing about nothing. And um but the good news is uh Ansbury Theological seminary being a very very grace filled spirit filled and very biblically grounded and founded uh seminary helped me understand the the wholeness in three and a half years that I'd never had in my whole life. I was 33 years old when I got saved, 34 and seminary until I was 37, 38. For every step you take, talking about the realms again for every step we take in the in the in in this realm there is an opposing step being taken against us in the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 32:02

And and we have to understand that there is resistance when we take a step for the kingdom so so the so here's spiritual warfare. Here's spiritual warfare and the people like they look at I know even in my church I say this and like so people come to me Pastor Tim guess what praise God he answered our prayer we got a brand new house I get to work a lot of overtime to pay for it and uh listen you're not gonna see us for a while you're not gonna be in church for a while we're gonna be busy every weekend working on the house.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 32:36

I'm gonna be working seven days a week because I got to get overtime so I'm gonna neglect my family and neglect my wife that's right or my husband and praise God and literally everything in me tenses up sometimes. I'm thinking and I've said before is that really of God right is that really because you know what Satan does he does he does he uses good things to take us away from the objective of the God shadow mission. That's what it is it's a shadow exactly right he's he lives in the shadows and he works in the shadows even the doubt that this I love that shadow mission well that didn't come from me that came from John Ortberg many years ago okay yeah that's a great term and he does he he works in the shadows and he's on a shallow mission to to try to and he's a replicator he's a duplicator so I go back I go back to Pharaoh and Moses and so Moses and Aaron's throwing down some uh we're gonna talk about this tonight a little bit but uh great great uh passage that we I'm not sure we've read correctly but they throw down the staff you know and the the very first plague is the blue Nile turning into the river into the blood the second one I think is frogs but the third one is gnats okay and it stumps them so the first one the dark because it even says in Exodus the magicians of Pharaoh's court uses the dark arts that's the first time you'll see in in all of scripture you'll see dark arts that's the first time and that literally means demonic power so so the magicians so there is a power yes and there's a and and and but there's a but it's not equal to the power of God but it is a power that can counterfeit exactly counterfeit is the correct word of it it is and and so so here's the same same plague. Yeah same power no but at that point they think frogs same plague duplicated same power nope gnats why did the gnats stump the dark arts and the magicians because the little tiny word it says the gnats were created from dust only God can create all the way back to all the way back to Genesis. Yeah he creates the dust to make man from the dust yes only God can create yeah Satan all he can do is replicate yeah that's that's all he can do that's good he can't create a thing he can he can create chaos and confusion but he has to use what God's created yes crazy and so one of the things is understanding kind of the heartbeat of all this and going back to the root um uh of what's happening and again the the it's just this and I I love what you said about just this understanding of uh we we have to I think have to

Oppression Vs Possession

SPEAKER_08 35:12

have this idea of the shadow mission I love that I love that term I know I wish I made it up myself I love that term because I think that's where again going back to sinner versus saint if if I don't believe in my identity in Christ Bettina I'm less than.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 35:28

And I read in Romans 1, 81, I am more than yes and if I'm a saint who can sometimes sin, that's okay. But my sin is a habit, not a nature now. That's right. Nature defines sin habit is simply that something that gets sanctified out right yeah and and I think the enemy plays here does this is the battleground. A hundred percent Francis Franjopan do you know Francis Franjopin? No I don't think so it's a uh he's a I I read him years and years ago he actually has a uh like an academy but Francis Franjo pain has a book out simply called The Battlefield of the mind.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

So does Joyce Meyer.

SPEAKER_08 36:03

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I've read both uh very very different but very similar as well but yeah but Battlefield of the mind the first one I read was Francis Franjo Pan and it's just this understanding that if we protect this the helmet of salvation that's I just talking about on yeah we're gonna be better off and and and how to do that is obviously through the word of God and change the way that's why Paul said in chapter 12 of Romans.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Renew our thinking yeah our mind because we are we are yeah because he talks about the world and allowing letting God change the way we think and we have to let go of the world to the worldly thinking before he even can make inroads we got to be willing to do that.

SPEAKER_08 36:45

Yeah um so yeah there was something else so so who is Lucifer yeah yeah yeah yeah can we talk about that for and Satan like what's there so um I've got called up um both passages and we don't have to read the whole thing but Isaiah 14 and I and Ezekiel 28 are the are the the the passages that that kind of we we bring together to form this understanding of of Lucifer. I will say this uh I think I mentioned to you on I think I mentioned this to you earlier Lucifer in the Hebrew word is beautiful one or morning star. Yeah so the name Lucifer means literally beautiful one. Yeah what yeah but to understand and and so here's a here's the thing and this is where I think you I mean we we get this but I I I just want to make sure that our listeners and our watchers they just so demons are angels. Yeah that's it exactly but it they are angels and and we'll come back I won't I'll promise I'll come back to Lucifer and and Satan but if you rightly read Ephesians 6 not only are there there's there's levels of warfare. Yes there are because there are apparently there are kingdoms and authorities levels of forces within that and I believe as you we do some study you've you've done some study over the years there are levels of demonic forces but they're equal in some sense at least they they're counterparts to the spiritual realm. Now we understand I want to make sure it's so so clear Jesus and and Satan are never fighting each other they're never on the same they're not in the courtroom you know I grew up with Carmen you know where the courtroom scene you know come on and uh the father is the judge and he hasn't determined yet and and you got the prosecuting attorney Satan you got the defense attorney there finally comes to our rescue but they're not on equal ground they're not yeah Satan's equal ground is Gabriel Michael Absolutely they are archangels now powerful yeah powerful demonic beings yeah I said this right before we started and I'll say this just to make sure we're clear what my understanding is he if he's the shrewdest of all creatures creatures made and he's a supernatural being we're no match we're not supernatural. We are natural with the supernatural living in us but he's supernatural. Right so Satan is undefeated against mankind. He is winless against the Holy Spirit which ultimately all the spiritual warfare comes down to how much of the Holy Spirit they have in you. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit and you have more and more of the Holy Spirit in you're not going to be duped at the end of time. You're not gonna be deceived we're all concerned about the 666 mark right yeah but if I've got the Holy Spirit in me yeah and and we'll we'll talk about this one day too but I'm pretty sure it's not magic marker on the forehead right I think there's something else. But anyway but but I think but it does say very clearly that even the elect can be deceived. Yeah wow now I'm not I'm not I I don't necessarily subscribe to predestination uh theology that some people do but but you have to pay attention to that you do if even the elect can be deceived goes all the way back to when the garden. Yeah God's original creation the OG Adam and Eve deceived with just a simple conversation yeah man he's subtle man he's tricky.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Yeah very subtle that's the thing like oh my God yeah so that's why we need to be filled with the Spirit so that we can discern that that that that you need we need to be pricked by the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_08 40:22

The moment a word comes that is not compar compatible with the word of God the moment a word comes that just seems off we've got to know how to pay attention not to our emotions not to our gut but to the Holy Spirit of the living God within us the third person of the of God. And we've got to understand how to to I say this all the time it really comes down to how we've cultivated a deep and profound relationship with the person living within us. Yeah. That's really what it comes down to in every part of our Christian life but certainly in spiritual warfare. And and I think with that Satan and and and Jesus are not on equal ground Jesus is already victorious. Jesus we're just waiting for the final consummation Jesus has done everything in that in his power to make sure we are equipped against the enemy but uh that but there are forces and there's a there's a the final the the kind of the uh the the initial layer are those messenger angels. We see this even in Hebrews. Yeah do not uh do not fail to entertain strangers right for you might be entertaining angels angels unaware yeah and I've seen yeah I've seen angels oh I I've experienced angels uh I've been punched yeah by a demonic angel yeah from from an invisible source and and these things are just and I don't and we we don't make stuff up we just we're just like trying to live life as a Christian and and but we under we also understand I think these realms um Lucifer beautiful one morning star right you've heard this right we know this at some point as you read

Identity: Sinner Or Saint

SPEAKER_08 41:47

through Isaiah uh and Ezekiel Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 you when you read through that you do get the sense that in some way or another Lucifer may have been in charge of worship. Yeah it it's it's like instruments instruments involved exactly there's instruments involved there's singing glory to God there's praising God involved and so when you read I have a one of my favorite sayings is CIE context is everything. But then when you start looking at Isaiah especially you start looking at the king of Tyre. And was there an actual king of Tyre? There was but there's also a supernatural king and so you shift you if you read through that passage you'll see that there's a there's a there's a there's a present and then there's a future but the future is somehow connected to the past the grammar is all wonky. Yeah unless you understand what maybe he's talking oh he's talking about two realms so so once again there's realms in right the realm this realm that we're dealing with but then there's the spiritual realm. So Lucifer I think uh archangel uh we then glean from is it Revelation that talks about or actually in as I think it's the passage in Ezekiel a third of the stars fall.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Oh yeah right so however many hundreds of thousands or millions of angels there are there are you know I went and just to kind of kind of piggyback a little bit on what the angel all of the angels um so yeah there are not a limitless amount of demons they've just been around for years so so that I look at it like um they have their general who is sending them places so you know there are times when you really feel I have felt that I've been under attack you know and people say that I feel like I'm under attack. Um but that doesn't can't I mean there aren't endless amounts. So I don't know how many there are but it's like warfare in the spiritual realm. And there so there's a lot of stuff that goes on that we don't see but we can have a sense of it. Um so anyway so read the scriptures where are you here?

SPEAKER_08 43:59

I'm gonna read Um I'm reading Isaiah 14.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_08 44:04

And I'm going to pick up verse 9.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

All right.

SPEAKER_08 44:06

And again, so at the beginning, there is this sense of the king, a taunt for Babylon's king. Okay. So both Babylon's king in Isaiah 14 and the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28, they start with, and we know there was a king of Babylon, and we know there's a king of Tyre. So they start with the historical record. So both of those passages start with this realm.

SPEAKER_05 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 44:31

They shift. They have to shift. There's, there's just, it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. You have to read it with understanding. And so it starts at verse 9. In the place of the dead, there is excitement upon your rev arrival. The spirits of world, now I'm reading from the New Living Translation. I am too.

SPEAKER_07 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 44:49

Okay. The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead stand up to see you. With one voice, they all cry out, Now you are as weak as we are. Your might and power were buried with you. The sound of the harp in your palace has ceased. Now maggots are your sheet. Wow. And worms are your blanket. Now, so now go all the way to the first, go all the way to the New Testament, right? What does Jesus? What's one of the some of the things? We talk about hell. What is hell? Hell's uh fire, uh, hell is eternal darkness, this deep dark darkness, uh, this black, this, this, this, this, the deepest darkness you'll ever you'll ever have. Um obviously the worst part about hell is the the the God's not there. Um but aren't maggots and worms mentioned in hell?

SPEAKER_05 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 45:34

So again, you make these connections. But but it's not just one connection, it's several. Look at this, verse 12. How you have fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning. Well, there's that shining star, son of the morning. That's almost the Hebrew term.

SPEAKER_05 45:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 45:48

That's the actual Hebrew name for Lucifer. Yeah, that's Lucifer. You have been thrown down to the earth. So now we can't so we can't be talking about an earthly realm.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

Right.

SPEAKER_08 45:59

Right?

SPEAKER_05 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 46:00

There has to be now a spiritual realm. You're thrown from a realm down to the earthly realm.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 46:04

You who destroyed the nations of the world, for you said to yourself, I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars. I will preside in the mountains of the gods, far away in the north. I, how many times as I mentioned, I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the most high. Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to the lowest depths, uh, uh that place, Sheol, right? Sheol. Everyone there will stare at you and ask, can this be the one? Now, for me, this is one of my the best passages, because at some point he's going to be revealed for who he was and who he is, right? And at the end of time, you know, he's gonna be thrown in the lake of fire and destroyed. Can this, but even now, we're given this understanding. And I think sometimes speaking to the people who are afraid of spiritual warfare are afraid of the devil, I'm not afraid of the devil at all, but I do give him proper respect. Yeah. In the sense, even in the New Testament, where that strange little passage is it in Titus? Is that Titus? Is that um the strange passage where they're talking about the bones of Moses? And even like Michael decides not to argue with them.

SPEAKER_05 47:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 47:12

He just says, the Lord will defend me.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

Right.

SPEAKER_08 47:15

The Lord will contend with you.

SPEAKER_05 47:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 47:16

I'll leave you to the Lord. So I so I'm not a big fan. Got another story at some point of how we it was a jail ministry patina. Everybody got deathly sick.

SPEAKER_05 47:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 47:26

Uh before we were deathly sick, somebody brought in a little shiv, and everybody has to go out, you know, and and so one of the inmates brought in a little homemade knife made out of a toothpick, uh, made out of a toothbrush. And so everybody gets uh all the inmates go out, all the residents. We had to stay in locked doors, the team. There's like 30 of us. And we're all there just praying, eight o'clock in the morning, Saturday morning. We got the whole day in front of us for jail ministry. And where it's gonna be, it's called an REC Residents Encounter Christ. It's a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday event, kind of like in a mayos walk, but it's in jail. We're all there, and I'm the spiritual director. And before I know it, uh, we got some people are holding hands and we're all joining together. We're singing. Okay, great. Praise, yeah, praise, right? Praise. All of a sudden, Petina, somebody says, Red Rover, Red Rover, we dare Satan over.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

Oh no.

SPEAKER_08 48:20

Of the 30 people on the team, 28 got deathly sick, including yours truly, within three hours. Don't tell me that was the Don't tell me that was the breakfast burritos. I mean, it wasn't. We didn't even have food. I mean, there was we were all deathly ill. Yeah. 28 of the 30. It's crazy. I'm thinking spiritual warfare anywhere. Who said that? It was one of the one of the leaders. And I was over here at the tape. I know. Red Rover, and I'm sitting there, my eyes get this big. I'm like, so there's gotta be this problem. So this is where I have real problems with theology that wants to kind of stomp on the devil or even like dumb theology, I think. Sorry, I'm just putting it out there, but a theology that says Satan's not smart.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Right. No, he's very plus he's been watching us.

SPEAKER_08 49:06

Oh, patient.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

You know, when we when we're born, he's watching us. He's looking for weaknesses. And he finds them because we're we're pretty stupid. You know, we're human. So yeah.

SPEAKER_08 49:16

Unforgiveness, you mentioned, if we have an area of unforgiveness, what a huge chink in our armor.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Huge, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 49:22

Probably the biggest one.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

I think it is the biggest one.

SPEAKER_08 49:23

I think it's the biggest one. I agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Bitterness, unforgiveness, all those.

SPEAKER_08 49:26

Because all that's wrapped in. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you're thrown into the depths uh the place of the dead. Everyone, I love this. Everyone there will stare at you and ask, can this be the one you have to listen? You have to ask it like this, I think. Can this be the one? Incredulous. Can this be the one who shook the earth and made the kingdoms of the world tremble? Is this the one who destroyed the world and made it into a wasteland? Is this the king who demolished the world's greatest cities and had no mercy on his prisoners? And I think

The Fall, Deception, And Heresy

SPEAKER_08 49:55

that's this understanding of seriously? Yeah. We let him do this? Yeah. But again, smart and deceptive. So it says the kings of the nations lie in stately glory, each in his own tomb, but you will be thrown out of your grave like a worthless branch, like a corpse trampled underfoot. You will be dumped into a mass grave with those killed in the battle. Are Mageddon anyone? Uh, you will be descended into the pit, bottomless pit.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Yeah. I mean, it's all here.

SPEAKER_08 50:20

It's all there. Yeah. This is like the history of what was and what is to come for the arch enemy of our lives. And it's right there. Yes. And and and people have I've read so so, so, so many um um commentaries and thoughts about this might be this or this might be this. But I think we miss the point if we don't understand it has to do with two realms.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

100%. Yeah. We have to understand. I mean, I and just just I know that we'll talk about that even more, but they're like you said, the spiritual realm is probably more realistic because of the eternal aspect of it. It's where God lives, it's where the angels are. So that's you know, we're just as a little piece. And it's bigger, you know, than we're just on this earth.

SPEAKER_08 51:10

Anyway, well, yeah. And that's a great, I think I won't listen, I think we go there right now because I think so. What happens when we're born again?

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Yeah. The Holy Spirit is yeah enters us. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 51:24

Two realms collide.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Yeah. Fused together. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_08 51:28

And and and so now the struggle with sin, Romans 7, is this struggle with the realms.

SPEAKER_04 51:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 51:35

I'm sanctified. I'm sanctified I'm I'm I'm saved, sealed, and sanctified, and yet I'm being sanctified. I'm continuing to walk, and yet I'm still struggling with sin.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

And if it helps people, maybe even talking about the kingdoms.

SPEAKER_08 51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

You know, maybe just say it like that, because that is what we're talking about. When we're talking about the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, we're talking about a spiritual realm and that is coming to earth. I that's another thing. So John Hortberg, I don't know why he's coming up twice. But years ago, I heard him speak, I mean, years and years ago, and he I'll never forget it because I'd never heard it before, before people really talked about it, but he drew a on a whiteboard and he drew this line. I've seen this. Yeah, where he talked about the earth, and then he talked about and he had arrows coming down because that's how we understand the spiritual realm. The spiritual realm isn't really coming down, but that's how we envision it. So yeah, I mean, I think it helps for the human mind to understand that it's it's the it's God's kingdom versus the world's kingdom.

SPEAKER_08 52:33

And and the Bible study that I did a few years ago, I think five or six years ago, where I got some of my notes, I've done I've done two concentric circles and I've merged them. And so you've got where this mix is right here. So so here's the kingdom realm, here's the natural realm, and at some point we inner we we engage in that.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 52:54

Um and then as we get closer and closer, becoming more and more like Christ, hopefully that circle closes, right? And so, but as that circle closes, man, there is pressure and there is fight and there is battle sometimes. And it's the flesh of ourselves, but also the desires that we have. If you look all the way back to the fall, like we were talking about earlier, you look at that, you if you die, if you literally dissect the call, the the fall, you see Satan's, and we you've we've seen this before, but go all the way to Jesus' temptations. The three times that Jesus is tempted by the devil obliterates and reverses the three times that the enemy uses, the three ways the enemy uses to entice Adam and Eve. So the temp the temptation with Christ is He reverses the curse.

SPEAKER_05 53:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 53:49

Just like how many times did Peter deny?

SPEAKER_05 53:51

Three. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 53:52

And how many times did Jesus restore?

SPEAKER_05 53:54

Three.

SPEAKER_08 53:54

Yeah. And so so here he is. We see if you break down Genesis three, you'll see, oh, you'll be like God. And the fruit is good, and you'll be wise. And and so there's three things that the enemy entices Adam and Eve with. All the way back to now, go all the way forward, fast forward thousands of years, and you see Jesus reversing them. Because each of those temptations, Jesus Satan used, in a sense, yeah, similarly, to Jesus. And Jesus uses what? Each time? The word of God. Each time. That's why we have to know the words.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

That's our offensive weapon.

SPEAKER_08 54:30

Exactly. Ephesians 6, yeah. Um, but I think when the two realms come together, I think that's a real struggle for many of us. And and I think then to understand that, uh, to understand the realms. I want to read again, just I'm going to my man AW here, but um, a couple more thoughts that he shared that that I that I just really think. Spiritual warfare is an ongoing war. It's it's ongoing. It doesn't stop until Jesus returns.

SPEAKER_05 54:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 54:55

It is waged by Satan and his demons, which are fallen angels. And it is purposely to gain influence or control of the minds and the hearts of Christians.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

Yeah. There you go.

SPEAKER_08 55:05

That's it. The heart, the heart of spiritual warfare is to gain influence or control of the minds and hearts. Mine, I think mine first and then heart.

SPEAKER_05 55:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 55:13

What's the mind, you know, so but I think, and he says this beside because Satan cannot force Christians to do his will. He relies on convincing them with trickery and deception and lies. And it goes on his ultimate goal to impede us from living the full expression of our God-giving callings and glorifying God with our lives. Going back to the calling and the gifts, right?

SPEAKER_03 55:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 55:38

I again, I know we've covered the gamut here, but how I use this word, how crippling is it?

SPEAKER_03 55:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 55:44

When I think we all agree the world is a mess. I think we can look around, and there's wonderful, beautiful things about the world. You have a four-year-old uh grandson and a two-year-old granddaughter, beautiful things, right? Yeah. But if you look around the world, I'm I'm gonna maybe head back somewhere in the next couple of days to a place that's gonna be blanketed with snow and ice. And I mean, literally, it's gonna be that they're calling it a cataclysmic storm, okay? I don't think that's gonna be heaven. I don't think heaven's gonna have cataclysmic storms, okay? So uh, so it it it's there, you look around, even that, you look around at the wars, you look around, all the different things in this world. This world is a kind of a hard place, kind of a messed up place. I call it a broken place, right? Yeah, what if six percent of the people answered their call?

Shadow Missions And Counterfeits

SPEAKER_08 56:30

What if seven what if ten percent? Yeah, what if fifteen percent? Patina, what if fifty percent of the people you and I minister to believed in a call, believed in a call, accepted the gifts, and walked in our full anointing. Yeah, would the world be as wicked and bad as it is?

SPEAKER_04 56:55

No.

SPEAKER_08 56:55

No, because God's glory would be on earth as it is in heaven, right? This prayer that we pray, the Father the Lord's.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 57:02

That I think is the heartbeat of the spiritual warfare. It is just to it to to cripple Christians, to cripple us in our minds and our our our boldness, uh our our our anointing.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

You know what? Here's the thing though, and I I hate to say this thing keeps like going down. Um but the the strength of the believer happens unfortunately or fortunately uh during suffering. You know, so if you go to places, and I know you've been places where people, maybe there's an underground church or whatever, and and those people are you know, the believers are living like that.

SPEAKER_08 57:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

So it it's we we have so many things that prevent, you know.

SPEAKER_08 57:49

We are so similar. We teach and preach price. So we're so similar. I've our comfort is our um one of our greatest tripping points.

SPEAKER_03 58:00

It really is.

SPEAKER_08 58:01

When we get all comfortable, and and what do we pray? Come on, we we pray for comfort.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

We pray for comfort.

SPEAKER_08 58:06

We pray for comfort. And I think Satan loves those prayers.

SPEAKER_03 58:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 58:10

Uh I was in Columbia. Uh my daughter, our daughter is a missionary in Columbia, full-time missionary, and she um I was in Columbia and there's this witch doctors are abound there in different parts. And we were praying, her name was Neroma. Uh her name was Neroma, and uh, and uh, but Neroma was dying of cancer. She was bloated in her midsection, grow grossly, uh really grossly uh bloated. Can't uh tumor upon tumor upon tumor. There's really no hope. The doctors have given up a she's maybe 40 years old, uh family of six or seven kids, six or seven kids. She called us to pray. So I come over and pray. Well, I come over and pray, and there's there's the best dressed guy in the whole village. Smelled great. I don't know what his cologne was, but later I asked him, What's your cologne? He's a witch doctor. I want the cologne to the witch doctor because it smelled good. But nicely dressed, he's over here. We're talking. All of a sudden, Naroma is watching him and talking to him. So there's a bag. Uh Noroma's here outside, it's a uh an outside uh gazebo. Um, and uh and here I am, I'm praying for her, and I'm keeping my eyes open, and there's a bag. There's a there's a like a like a like a black plastic bag that's hanging right over her. Okay. I've got four or five witnesses we've got on video, okay. Including, I say this just in jest, but including a good Baptist. When you talk about Methodists, this is a good old Baptist who's watching this and he's freaking out. And uh, but I'm I'm praying. And this witch doctor, as I'm praying, almost every time I say the name of Jesus, literally, Petina, almost every time I say the name of Jesus, he looks at that bag. You can see him. He's looking at the Roman, he looks, he'll look at that bag, demonstratively, he'll look at that bag. And as he looked at that bag, that bag moved. Now, the only thing that was in that bag, we found out later, was herbs. Um, uh, I think it was uh uh the heart of a frog. Uh I mean, there are like like things that a witch would use to make a and I know we're we hear that and we're like this fantastic fantastical kind of stuff. But unfortunately, it's not the po it's not that that has the power. Right. But Satan uses all kinds of things to use power. He uses a brand new house. Right. He uses our doubts.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:29

He uses our self-incrimination, he uses our guilt. Yep. He uses overtime. He he is very wise in how he uses things. Very shrewd. I'll use that word. He was very shrewd. And and he's also the father of all lies, right? Yeah. Just like when so your dad said that's not the truth, boom, kind of broke that.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:50

But we've got on videotape that that bag would flutter. I was sure there's a bat, and it looked like a bat. I mean, it wasn't just it wasn't, it was there's nothing in there that would have done it. We opened it later. But um but something was happening. And we finally, I finally told Naroma, I said, Neroma, I understand you want to be healed. I know you're 40 years old, you're you know, you got six or seven kids. I get this. I said, here's what I said. The missionaries still remember this prayer. I'd rather die trusting in only Jesus than somehow live trusting any other power. I said, you've got to make that, you've got to make that decision.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:30

Do I believe God can heal you? Yeah, I can. I believe you God can heal you. I also believe that sometimes that's beyond our understanding.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:38

But if I'm gonna make a choice in this world, I wanna I'm gonna die with the one true holy power.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:45

And not make allegiances or alliances with any other power.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:49

And and that's a whole different topic, probably, but I think we've made alliances and allegiances with powers.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

A hundred percent. No, we have, we have vows, different things. And you know, that's the other thing. So we made so I talked to somebody a while back and he was talking about making vows, and he was talking about like we make vows like um, I am never going to allow myself to be heard again. You know, yep. And so those vows become these walls, and then these walls um become uh a place where Satan can cause us to um be confused and not allow the Holy Spirit in. So anyway, there's so many different layers there. I do want to say this. So, Stephen, when Stephen in the Bible was um being martyred and they were stoning him, Stephen um he did not make an alliance with any other power. He looked in the and that's when heaven and earth truly came together. He was dying yet, and I and I personally believe that martyrs for Christ who die for Christ, I think that's what happens. I really believe there's a special grace offered to them at that moment. Absolutely. You know, where they can see or experience God in a way that they've never before, you know. He saw Jesus right there standing.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:10

But anyway, I think Revelation talks about somehow martyrs are going to be awarded like some kind of a different award reward. Yeah. So yeah. I I'm not necessarily praying for martyrdom. No, but I'm okay if it happens, I guess. I guess. But I will say, Stephen, one of my favorite stories, Patina, know this.

Realms, Angels, And Order

SPEAKER_08 1:03:28

Did you know this? There's a little passage when right at the end, as he's being stoned, he looks up and just you almost miss it, but says, Jesus is a standing. Everything we know about Jesus, he went, he just he ascended into heaven and sat. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:46

He's standing, he's waiting for heaven.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:48

He's standing for Stephen in honor and in glory of Stephen. He in honor of Stephen, he stood for him.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:54

I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. But no, I think you're right. He did he chose not to make another allegiance, another alliance. And I think um, and you know, that's all that's a whole different realm, I think, of, of teaching. But I think the basic for enough for me, the basic is just understanding, I think people need to study warfare. And I think there need to be good teachers and good pastors who teach on the devil, who teach it uh well, who teach it biblically. Uh, I really do get frustrated and and and almost aggravated when I see bad teaching about spiritual warfare. Going back to my comment earlier, if there's anything we have to get right, yeah, really is this, because this can be really you remember the seven sons of Skeva?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

Yes, I thought about it.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:37

Right? I mean, in Acts, you know, when when uh when uh we're there's the seven the sons see this man filled with a demon and and they go up to him. They're sons of a high priest, so surely they got clout. They got the same clout as their daddy, but they come up to the demon-possessed man and say, in the name of the Jesus that he knows, right? It's like, it's like, and the the leaving the demon, the man looks at him like, uh, nope, not gonna work. And beats beats them up and leaves them naked and bleeding.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

Sorry, I'm laughing. No, no, no, no, I know, but but it's like this is real stuff. It's real, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:14

And and it's like, and I I I still remember my first year in seminary, I'm walking and I'm praying, and I'm I'm walking up and down neighborhoods, and and at some point, we probably have to talk about some point uh in episode 30 of this. We gotta talk about boundaries. Yeah. Because I think we take Satan, so whatever the case, whatever happened in Job 1, yeah, this very troubling, weird, what?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:39

Oldest book in the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:40

First book, chronologically, first book in the Bible. And this council meeting.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:46

This council meeting of all council meetings.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:48

Where Satan shows up late.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:50

And somehow they're having this exchange about Job, and Satan's given permission. And I, you know, one of the things I've given up after almost 30 years of Ministry patina is I don't, I'm not God's answer man.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:02

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:03

I don't have to explain everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:05

One of my three favorite words. I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know. But I do know the principle behind that is there is an there's an order, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:14

And and I I was out of order this night. I was praying first year in seminary, and I'm I'm standing in front of a house. I see a vision. And the vision is this kind of overweight, uh kind of middle-aged, uh unshaven man, kind of a stereotypical, unfortunately, uh well, he's wearing a a t-shirt, a white uh uh tank top t-shirt, stained, and he's beating, viciously beating a like an 11-year-old girl. I'm staying at the house, and I'm and and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have this vision. It's probably one of the very first visions I had. Imagine that. I wanted visions of like, you know, rapture and visions of glory, but no, I got a vision of uh somebody beating their little girl half to death, and and I'm standing there, and and I really do believe that God's gifted me. I've I will I I think He's gifted gifted me with some vision of the spiritual realm. And it's like looking into an attic.

unknown 1:07:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:07

Like our when you go to your grandfather's grandma and grandparents' house and they got all this scary stuff in the attic, you know, and you climb up that ladder, you pull down that ladder, you know, and you climb that ladder and you peek in. And for those who have the brave heart to do this, I think God can gift you with a spiritual vision of demonic of the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:28

And again, once again, understanding born again are the two realms coming together. So I'm praying, and and I just remember so clearly, Petina, I stepped off the sidewalk onto the front yard. I just remember I took a step into the front yard. I got my hand up and I'm praying, and that was when I felt felt the first punch. I mean, literally a punch. I took the breath out of me. I was like, I've been punched before. I know what I used to box. So I think I know what I know what a punch felt like. It was a it was a punch in my midsection. I was like, oh. I sit there, like, okay. Took a deep breath. I tried to pray again. As soon as I tried to put my hand out, I mean just a punch, a bigger punch. I'm not, unfortunately, uh not ashamed, but um I ran back to my dorm room, tail between the legs. And I just remember scared to death of what but I felt like the Lord taught me through that moment there's a real realm. You've got to know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:25

And if you step out of bounds, there's consequences. Yeah. Like the sons of skiva, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

Um yeah. And and and for so preparing the heart too for stuff like that, which you probably, I mean, making sure that we are fully surrendered and good and confession and all of that stuff before we ever even get into anything like that.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:46

Yeah. I mean, story after story, we used to we used to have a we used to have a deliverance ministry at the church.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:51

Um we we, you know, confession, prayer, worship, communion, time of communion, uh, fasting. Yes. All those things were involved before you ever get there. Before you ever got there. Um not that you have to be squeaky clean.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:04

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:05

But you do have to, you have to make sure that you're understanding the severity. When the spiritual realm collided in Genesis 3, all of heaven and earth changed.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:18

The world, Romans tells us the universe is all of creation is still groaning. Yes. Because that moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:25

If if you're a I'm a young earther, but uh but uh six thousand six thousand, seven thousand years.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:30

If you're an old earther, even more devastating. For centuries upon centuries upon thousand upon millennia upon a millennia.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:38

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:39

Because we because Adam and Eve did not take seriously a conversation with the enemy.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:45

And I just for me, I just think it's i we just have to teach better, we have to, we have to prepare better, we have to read what's already there.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:53

All the scriptures.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:54

I mean, we went so I did like a class on Ephesians last year, and just like Bible, you know, going through verse by verse, it took a good while. I don't remember how many weeks it

Other Nations, Witchcraft, And Power

SPEAKER_03 1:10:06

was, but a lot of that's in there, even before you get to chapter six. Paul's talking about the realms and the heavenlies, and you know, it's like, what is and we got in deep discussions about it. You know, we can't if you don't talk about spiritual warfare or the heavenly realms, um, then you you're leaving out a large portion of the Bible.

SPEAKER_08 1:10:29

Well, we talked about this beforehand. If if if we don't talk about warfare, and even again, I didn't know what the heck was has to happen in at the first little church in in the country, but exorcisms. Yeah. How many times were exorcisms reformed in the New Testament? I mean, a lot by Jesus. So and and even people who who doubt now, you know, cessationism theory, where all the gifts have ceased, and and yeah. So if the healing, if there if there are no supernatural healings, then what happened? What was Jesus doing? And so I think, again, I I just believe that that those are still in play today. I don't understand. There's nothing in scripture that stops any of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:07

No, and I and I will say, and I've talked about this at my church, um, and I don't know why it is, maybe because people are more open to it, but when you go to other countries and you you have like experiences like that, you can't deny it. I mean, even I I've I've probably told you this story when we were preaching in a prison over there of like 500 men in Uganda, and it was an open, you know, and I won't, I remember um the man who was leading it, he said, why don't you do the end and you can do like the the um the gospel at the very end because we'd been singing and all kinds of stuff. So I go out there and there's you know, somebody's um communicating. I would say something and they would communicate. Um, and so at the very end of that, I did a, I was asking them to receive Christ as their savior. The first thing that happened is this all of like the first two rows of men just fell to their knees. Now, I've never seen that happen like that before. And I asked the pastor later, I said, Do they always do that? When you he said, they've never done that. So the Holy Spirit, like, I don't know, like shoved them to their knee, or they I don't know what happened, but they all fell to their knees and then they came. There was a man who was in the back who had fallen out, and they pulled, I don't know what happened. They came and they dropped him in front of me. And I thought he was dead. It was kind of like the woman you're talking about, but he was apparently a Muslim. And so um they then they ended up taking him away. So then the next day the pastor called me and he said that he accepted, like he's talking about Jesus. So what had happened is I guess he accepted Christ and then he fell and you know, was slain in the spirit or something, and they brought him up to me and then like he's now a Christian. Um, so like I can't here's what I've learned. I don't question. Um, if if if if there's not a sense of um spiritual darkness there, I don't question what God does. I mean, I just say, okay, I I have the attitude of I'm going in. Let's I'm going in. Like whatever God wants to do, I'm pay very close attention. There's a lot of weirdness that can go on. Um, and and I will say this last thing and then let turn it back over to you. But when I was in Puerto Rico, I was just talking to one of the women who went on the trip with me. And because we were walking down a street and we were praying and we were giving people cards and different things like that. And they went, we walked by a house, and two of the women who were on the trip went up to the house and they started knocking on the door. And it was very um clear to me spiritually that we did not need to be at that door. And then I called to them and I said, We need to leave now. We need to walk. And they wouldn't come. And then I heard screaming and something going on in the house. And so then they finally like came. And we had a conversation. I said, like, if that happens, like you have to listen to what I'm like, you have to listen. Um, I'm not perfect, but but but I sensed something was happening.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:18

Anyway, I say all the time, pay attention. Yes, the spiritual realm. We are natural people trying to live a supernatural life. We're we're born in the natural, and the supernatural invades us, consumes us, yeah, fills us. God, supernatural God lives inside of this body, in that body.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:46

There's going, that that's two realms right there that collide. And everything that God represents in the kingdom, the Holy Spirit brings in, and everything we represent in this realm. So the two realms are always at war. Galatians tells us that the spirit and the flesh are always at war. And I I just think we just pay attention because there's a thousand things that happen. And uh and even again, going back to the the good things that happen sometimes, the house and the and the and and I want to ask you this because you've brought this up a couple of times, because I just was brought back a s a moment in Guatemala. Um, we, me and two other people were we walked into a temple, um, uh I uh idol worship. They had a I can't remember the name of the the god, but he was like like an eight-foot mannequin. They had thousands of cigarettes. They had like a plastic mannequin, dressed them uh uh ostentaneously, I mean just obstainless, just just just all this jewelry and hat and and he got gloves and and but they've c they cut an opening in his mouth and they've stuffed literally hundreds and hundreds of cigarettes in his mouth. He's just weird. But there was smoke everywhere, and and people so we come and they were bringing babies and laying them for at his feet um for for uh uh blessing. I wish I can remember the name of the god that is a who was a god in Guatemala, and he was we're near where the where the Incas were, and and so we walk into this temple, and it was it it reeked. We were being thrown. They were they were taking like things that were on fire and throwing them at us. Okay. And uh I mean it was scorching us, and we burnt our clothes, burnt our skin. Um one person threw fire ants at us. They had like a like a yeah, and they got on my legs.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:31

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:32

And fire and fire ants were just tearing up my legs. I mean, here they are, it was just it was horrific. Um, we walk out finally.

unknown 1:16:39

Finally.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:40

Oh no, we were there for a while, but we finally walk out, and as we walked out, uh we get into the taxicab and in in in other countries. Because my question is, why? Why in other countries can they take this seriously? Why in America do we not? Why?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:58

Okay, well, I have my opinion of it. There's a lot of different things. I don't think we we need God. So, I mean,

Alliances, Vows, And Open Doors

SPEAKER_03 1:17:05

and we've also been deceived by our knowledge and all of the education and stuff like that. The Holy Spirit, I think, moves. Um, I think the Holy Spirit was here moving powerfully, and then because we ignored that he just moved elsewhere. I mean, those are just some of the things off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:22

I would agree. I go back to comfort.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:25

I go we go to We don't need God. I don't I don't think they call them third world countries anymore, but whatever the the tr the politically correct term is. There's other countries. I've been blessed to travel almost a hundred mission trips, uh, 70 of them internationally and on almost every continent. And I get to see these things, and they believe in a real spiritual realm. They believe in spiritual. Now, are they perfect in their understanding? No, but they certainly understand it. We walk in that cab, we go in that cab. In in other countries, and Guatemala certainly, I'm big, I'm tall, and I'm and they call me Yate, giant. So I'm only 6'1. And so, but we're stuffed in this little cab, all three of us, and we're realizing, you know what we're realizing? As we're leaving the temple, we're looking around. All the burn marks are gone.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:10

Not a single bite on my legs. They were biting me. I saw them swell up, get red.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:16

All gone.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:18

We had no smell. In fact, as we pulled out, the smell of flowers filled that.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:24

Oh, don't even go with that. I got a whole thing on flowers.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:28

I mean, it's crazy. It is just crazy what we experience.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:33

And I don't know. We tell these stories, and again, once again, they're fantastical stories. They shouldn't be. I know. These, this is this is the this is when two realms come together. And I think we've got to do a better job of understanding that we are j we we live with two realms colliding.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:51

Just like A.W. Tozier said, this isn't the playground, this is the battleground, but we always live with two realms.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:56

We live in the natural realm with a spiritual realm inside of us.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:59

So I have to share this because it totally applies when you're talking about the spiritual realm inside us. And I may have told you this story, but I I've told my church this before. But where I was, I was kind of in a state of I was sad about something. And so I was in my office in my house and I'm playing the piano and I'm just like sitting there and and I'm just meditating and just praying and saying, Lord, I said, Jesus, I just wish you were right here. I wish you were right here so I could just like hug you. And then I stopped and went, but you know, Paul said the spirit of Jesus is in us. Spirit, but so you're closer than a hug. You're like closer. So then I just sat there and just like in that moment, and I'll never forget it because my entire office space filled with the aroma of flowers. And then I was like, what is happening? So then it happened two other times. So it was three times. And the last time I was at a conference, and I, and it was like, I don't know, within a period of like a month, and I had gone down and to the front, I said, like, I'm all I'm like going in. If they're gonna pray, I'm going in. So I went up there and there were like two to three women who were on my left. And then I as soon as I heard a woman go, at that instant I smelled flower, like we all smelled the aroma of flowers. And then one of my professors at school said, um, I mean, I know there's a lot of different thinking on that. He said in in Cuba or wherever he was from that uh that people had that happen to them a lot, like where they smelled flowers. Then I had a Catholic friend who said that he believes because he has smelled what they think it's like the presence of Mary. I don't know if you've ever heard that. I think I think. But for me, I it was it was the Holy Spirit. There's no question about it.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:56

And I I want to say, I can't remember what I want to say Venezuela, but may it may just be because it's in the news. But um in some in some in some South America country, there is an understanding and a belief and relatively decent teaching that could be could be accurate, that the flower smells represent the garden tomb. Because that when I I've been to Israel a few times, it's you know, and one of the sites is this beautiful garden, and it's just incredible. All the flowers and the smell. So you got Easter lilies. The reason we have Easter lilies sometimes is because the flowers of the garden, you know, but this is this beautiful garden tomb. And so the the teaching in the church there is the flower smells represent victory.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:44

Resurrection. So whatever we're facing, resurrection, victory.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:47

It's it's it makes sense. I mean, now I went down the path of I went into the scriptures, I'm like, where does it talk about flowers and in the holy place? And the whole, you know, and so all of the flowers that are there. And so in my mind, I'm like, maybe it's that time when you're actually in the holy place. You know, yeah. Um who knows?

SPEAKER_08 1:22:08

And and the and so the whole point is that again, go back to this. I think this has been for me, it sounds like this has been the theme of of this whole time. There are two realms. That's right. And we do not live unilaterally, we live bilaterally. And we have to understand that. And if we don't understand that, then we are poorer for spiritual warfare. And if we don't understand that, we are easy prey. We're targets. And if we do understand that, then we can have a better appreciation, not only an awareness of the enemy, so that we don't get tripped up and deceived, right? But we can also have a deeper appreciation and a deeper love for so so when we understand this, this, this coming together of the two realms, we both can understand the enemy and understand God better.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:00

And I will add to that, which I totally agree with, it also helps us understand in our communications with our fellow believers, that they are not the enemy.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:11

We do not wrestle with flesh and blood.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:13

You know, I mean, I I think that that's what I seems to trip up a lot of people where it's super easy to look at you and go, you're the one causing me this issue.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:25

Um I haven't had that experience in my ministry.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:30

You're looking at me right now like you are my but I mean I think and then it goes back to where Jesus said, um, they will know that you are my disciples by the way you love one another. So if he can get us to be tripped up and not

Two Realms Colliding In Us

SPEAKER_03 1:23:44

love one another and to look at each other as the enemy, then he's one. Because then because what does God Jesus want? He wants for everyone to know him. And the best way for the world to see him is to see how we love one another.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:58

One of the points of just remind me, one of the points of the A.W. Tozer is to uh that the enemies, one of the enemy's uh tactics is to not only distract and dissuade and and discourage the three D's, but also to separate us from God.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:15

If we if he can keep us separate somehow from God. Um and I just want to leave this last quote. I don't even know the, I don't know who Randy Smith is. I think uh I don't I know some sounds familiar. I know he's not but uh this is where I found Satan hates God's children. We're made in the image of God, right? It is his utmost ambition to see us fall and fail in our spiritual responsibilities, just as he did.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:42

Specifically, his goal is to do whatever it takes to take us off the spiritual front lines. Bettina, we've gone back to this three times now. Your calling and your gifts. When there's five percent, that startles. I mean, I I agree. I'm probably not even I I don't even know. I wouldn't even know what percentage I'd give you if you asked me that question. It'd probably be right around the same range, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:03

Yeah. But think about it.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:05

If 5% of the church of Jesus Christ has accepted their call and their gifts, that's spiritual warfare. That's the enemy. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:18

I just had like a thing, uh just popped into my head. So, so I had somebody tell me about five years ago in this church. She said, I was talking about human trafficking, and she's like, I'm in. I want to do it. I'm like, and so like that, she's like, I'm passionate about this. Maybe like three to four weeks later, I had preached a sermon on starting small, I don't even remember what the subject was, humility, whatever. Um, and after that sermon, she came up to me and said, Um, I am taking a job and I'm gonna have to travel all the time. It's a real blessing to my family. All the things you said, and honest to goodness, have never seen her since. Tried reaching out to her, tried texting her, she was gone. I had someone say to me years ago, um, you know, I'm gonna be the best husband I can be to my wife, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, and just committed. And I'm not exaggerating, when I say like two weeks later, got this job offer, started traveling around, gone all the time, you know, went into a depression, had all these issues. And so, so my point is as soon as we say a word, right? As soon as we say, I know God wants me to do this, you say it out loud, the devil comes in and is like, let's see if you're really gonna do it.

SPEAKER_08 1:26:50

The reason we pay attention? Because Satan pays attention.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:26:54

You said earlier too, Patina, pay he pays attention to our weaknesses, he pays attention to our words, he pays attention to those words.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:00

Yes, he does.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:01

And he's patient. He'll come back around to it eventually. And if we're not paying attention, he's already got the upper ground. He's already got the upper upper ground, upper upper road. It goes on to say this doubt, distractions, greater love for other things, sin, laziness. It's subtle, it's strategic, it's sinister. His methods are predictable, but missed by those spiritually asleep and not alert.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:21

Absolutely. Alertness is everything. How do you stay alert? Let's go there. How do you stay alert?

SPEAKER_08 1:27:28

I think I the first three things that come to mind. Number one, I think uh two of these are kind of like brain here. The third one, but I think number one, I think we we've got to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Uh and and that's an active choice. Yes. You know, be filled. Ephesians 5 18 is not, it's not passive, it's active.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:44

Um it can happen over and over like we should be asking. Over and over and over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:48

Uh in early, early church, 2000 years ago, they taught uh they taught two words indwelling, infilling. The indwelling happens whether you like it or not. If you're born again, you're indwelt.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:57

So there it's built into the DNA pattern. Pattern of salvation, John 3. So as soon as you're saved, the Holy Spirit comes and lives into you. Boom. Okay, Holy Spirit comes. Um, but the infilling is your choice. That's we get to be filled. Number one. Number two, again, we go back to this, but the word of God, man, we just we're so we we just we we have so little understanding of the word of God. And and and that and as the Josh nurses continue to teach how to read the word of God for all it's worth, it it's just we've just found that people are have a real um negative the the I hate to say illiterate, but we really kind of are illiterate in scripture. Oh yeah. But the third thing that comes to mind is fasting. I don't think we fast enough.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:37

Sean, get on Sean, talk to Shauna. She's obsessed with it right now. She wants to do a whole teaching on it.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:43

I I I think it's I I think it's imperative.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:46

I think there's a season in my life I didn't fast. Now I fast regularly. The the the comparison, there is none.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:53

When I was fasting, when I'm fasting regularly, when I'm not fasting regularly, I'm sharper, I'm closer, I'm more intimate. It's just spiritually deeper. It's just it's different. So I think those are the first three things. I think that's how we stay alert. We've got to be understanding and cognizant of the Holy Spirit within us. We've got to know the word of God. We've got to go deeper and deeper in the word of God. And then I think we gotta, we gotta practice fasting more.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:15

Those are the first things that come to my mind with being a- I mean, and that takes discipline, that takes commitment, that takes like you can say that, like you can hear what the Holy

The Mind As The Battlefield

SPEAKER_03 1:29:26

Spirit wants you to do. Um, but um, but unless you do them, that's the other thing. So like I always say, like, the Holy Spirit could ask you to do something like 15 years ago, let's say, and it was it was over there 15 years ago, but you didn't do it. But I'm saying something regarding like your calling or whatever. It's still there.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:46

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:47

Until you address that, you're gonna be over here doing and you're but you always have to go back to that and say yes to that.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:55

That moment has changed, but the consequence hasn't.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:00

So so if you answer the call now based on what you would have done there, it's gonna be looked different.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:05

And it'll be a different situation. Yes. Because life has moved on.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:08

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:09

But the spiritual reality is still there.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

It's still there.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:11

You've still left that window open, you've still been disobedient, you still have said no to God. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. And so once again, one of the things we could talk about is what opens the doors for spiritual warfare. But I think we've landed on some key things.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:24

We have.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:25

We really have. Um I have a whole Bible study on Ephesians on Isaiah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:31

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:32

And the word halel means shiny one, translated as Lucifer.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:37

Um, let me see.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:38

You've got the Hebrew word.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:40

Are you still recording? Okay. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_08 1:30:44

I just gonna say it. But listen to this. This is crazy. The Hebrew word, and and this is the passage we just read in Isaiah about the the the name. Uh uh, I'll go back to it real quick, just make sure that we're reading it rightly. But Isaiah 14, it says, How you have fallen. This is uh verse uh um 30 12, chapter 12, chapter 14, Isaiah 14, 12, how you have fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning. Listen to this. The Hebrew word helail, H-E-L-E-L, means shining one. So the shining star. It's translated in verse 12 as Lucifer. The most common Hebrew word for praise is hello. Hallelujah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:27

Yes, yes, it sounded familiar. I'm like, because we did a whole thing on them.

SPEAKER_08 1:31:32

It's just like, and I just one of the things I think, Pratina, I find so um fascinating, but also so it is the narrow margin. I I call it walking on the the um uh walking the edge or uh walking the ridgeline. Walking the ridgeline. So if you if you walk off a ridge, if you come off the ridgeline one way, you're gonna tumble. If you go off the other way, so you gotta walk the ridgeline. And the ridgeline, if you if you look at, if you go, if you Google ridgeline races or paths, it literally is a mountain range that comes to a peak almost, but the peak continues.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:06

So it's a mountain peak that continues. That's why the ridge is. Some ridges are fairly wide, some are really narrow. In fact, the only thing that's on the ridge is a path. Yeah. A little worn goat path.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:17

You stay on the goat path, you're fine. You go just a little bit over here, tumble, tumble, tumble, tumble, tumble, tumble. I think that's spiritual warfare. I think if we go in one way or the other, I just we we have had thousands of conversations like you have. And some folks are just like, you are just bizarro, man. I mean, you're just way out there. And then others, I'm thinking, you don't believe in the devil?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:38

There's there's literally people who don't believe in the devil.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:40

I know. I don't know how it's.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:43

And Satan's like perfect. He's like buying them another drink. Yeah. I mean, I mean, he's like, go, you're, I love you, man. You're working for me. And I it's just crazy how we just go from all these far ends. And if you think about the ridge line, right? A ridgeline is again two peaks. You don't fall a little bit. So there's not a little off.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:03

Yeah. You're either way off or you're way off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:33:07

Or you're right on. And I think spiritual warfare is that. I I think we have to, I really do think I I we've done classes, we've done preachings. I'll keep going back to this, but uh I I think this sense of uh, and again, when I when I hear halal and hale, it's almost an imperceptible difference. It's razor thin. The difference between uh the tumbling and the ridge line. It's razor thin, Patina. And and I think we have to be, I think we have to take notice that the enemy does pay attention, he's very patient. Uh he'll wait for, he'll wait, he'll wait, he'll wait. Um and and I and I think then for us to understand how impatient we are, for how ignorant we are, and I mean that in not in the sense of just we just don't know the word, but we the word of God. But when we just don't know the word, and and you know, the Red Rover, Red Rover, it's just uh you know, those moments, we just continue to shoot ourselves in the foot. And and that's another thing. I think so oftentimes we shoot ourselves in the foot, we hand the smoking gun to Satan, yeah, and say, look what the devil did. But the devil's like, well, I'm fine with a smoking gun, but actually, you're just simply you did my work for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:18

We partner with him.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:21

And I think sometimes we have to say, and I I don't try to shock preach. I don't, I do try to say things in a different way to kind of get people, just like you do. I don't I just try to get people aware, you know. Um, but I just think that that if we aren't fully aware of spiritual warfare, devastating consequences, devastating consequences to the church, to our own personal lives, to our spiritual apathy, our spiritual coldness. Um you you start unraveling all this, you start trailing all this down. I

Practical Alertness: Word And Fasting

SPEAKER_08 1:34:50

don't walk in my call, I don't I don't operate my gifts, I have no purpose now. Um, I have no real clue in my identity in Christ. I may have no intimacy.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:01

Uh I'm not abiding.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:02

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:03

And if I'm not abiding, I'm not producing fruit.

unknown 1:35:05

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:05

Certainly not much fruit.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:07

And now all of a sudden I can do nothing. I mean, it's just like this just unraveling really quickly. And it's just, I think we have to understand for for me, for what I've seen, this this place that we have got to understand as a Christian church. Go back to the Catholic Church. Uh, the Catholic Church, I don't agree with everything in the Catholic Church, but my gosh, um, to have a title, like when I first heard my friend say he was the director of supernatural warfare.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:34

I want that title. Yeah, I want that title. I want that title. Um, maybe I don't, but I even ask him, he's he's he's an archdiocese up in Chicago. I said, what do you do? He teaches that's all he does. He pulls out all the passages. He said they've got volumes, volumes of books that they teach from scripture on Old Testament, New Testament. Exorcisms, basics. Here's who he is, yeah, here's who he isn't, here's who we are, uh, identity in Christ. I mean, he it is just deep and profound. I mean, I mean it's a volume.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:07

And I've told you this before that I I think one of your friends is even involved in it, or you knew about it, but the um the exorcist files the podcast, which I really have learned a lot and I love it. One of the things I love about the Catholic Church is when they're talking about it, the the way they talk about the person who's suffering. They say that they it's a mercy ministry. You know, it's not like them being all-powerful. Like that's why they don't ever film anything, and you know, because they believe in and respect the person who's going through it. And it's not there to be made fun of. It's not there to be uh put out on social media or anything like that. So they have mercy, and that's why exorcisms, you know, it's not like it's not like TV, you know, movies and all that. Um one of the things I just wanted to mention too, you you were talking about calling, kind of going back to that. Um so when I was called, my first I was called a long time ago, but when I was answering the call finally, um, it was in 2003, and going through a, you know, all kinds of stuff at home in a good way. We had just moved to Florida. But um when God had reformed me and I had turned my life completely to him, and that meant, and I say this all the time, surrendering my life to Jesus, reading the Bible every day, praying every day, worshiping, um, reading the Bible to hear from God, not reading the Bible just to have a history lesson. Like, what is God saying to me today? And then responding to that and confessing my sin. I remember feeling like I had confessed sins from 40 years before that. That's true, you know. I was at 40, so like from the time I was born. So, like all this. So, anyway, go through all that. And then I then I answer the call because God blessed me. It was unbelievable. And when I finally said yes, truly the gates of hell were opened and they came against me. Yes, a hundred percent. So the question is when you get to that place, when you finally say yes, are you willing to fight the battle?

SPEAKER_06 1:38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:24

Because it would be easy to get up, give up during that time. But I decided to fight the battle and and I did, and I lost friends. I for a for about a year. Um, it was really, really tough. But I kept saying to the Lord, I don't even want this. You're the one, you know. And then I read, I read Ephesians every single day. I had a dream during that time that um there was a a dog, a Brendel uh pit bull that came into my house and it there was nothing in my house, no furniture, and he went into every room and he was looking for me. And he came into my bedroom, I was laying on the bed, and he came into my face and was growling in my face. And I remember I I was I just kept trying to say the name of Jesus, I couldn't. And then I woke up saying the name of Jesus. And then I went, that's when I started reading Ephesians every day. So my point is, like you said, there's a push when you decide, and I want to encourage people, yeah, don't be scared.

SPEAKER_08 1:39:27

And yeah, there's a reason I think perseverance and um stay alert and um keep fighting and keep your spiritual zeal. All those passages of scripture are in there, Pattina, because we're not gonna be told something. Every word is inspired by the Holy Spirit, every word is divinely inspired. We're not gonna be told things if they're not true. We're told to keep the reason. So every time an angel shows up, what's the first word? Do not be afraid. You know why?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:01

Because they're afraid.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:02

Because they're afraid. So every time there's a scripture that says persevere, it means there are people who don't persevere. That's right. Those who endure to the end, Revelation says, will gain the victory. And so there's endurance and there's perseverance. And and I I do think I want, but I also want to challenge this. Be careful of the sources you're studying, be careful of teachers, and I'm not mentioned names, but but there's some really bad theology out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:28

A lot of bad.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:29

And and and I just think that, again, like I've said before a couple of times already, if we don't get this one right, I just think we're messing around with some spiritual dynamite. And and it's not going to be good. And it blows up in our faces at times. And and there's such sublimity, uh, whatever the word is. There's such a subliminal subliminal work that the enemy does that it's not, it's not known, obviously. It's not known at first. And there's an undercurrent, again, by the house, uh uh overtime, all that. But it just begins to seep.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:02

And it begins to take root. And before you know it, hearts are bitter. Uh, you got a habit now. We uh we in the pastorate uh in my in my circle, we have a saying, you miss one week, you might miss two. You miss two, you might miss four. You miss four, you miss eight, you're out. It's called pastor math. It's called church attendance math. You start missing, yeah, you're you're you're gonna start missing. Like the person that said, I'm gonna I'm all in, and three weeks later, they're all out. And I just that's the enemy that distracts me. 100%. And so spiritual warfare is not pea soup, exorcism, heads turning around.

Culture, Comfort, And The “God Of This Age”

SPEAKER_02 1:41:35

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:35

Can it be that? Can it be the first we have, I mean, I've got story after story after story. I'm I mean, you do too. We've got stories of uh you talk about this pit bull. I remember clearly uh being pinned to the floor. Uh I was in my prayer room, my prayer room, my prayer room, in my house, and I'm praying, and I hear the screen door. It said, it's an afternoon in May. I hear the screen door open. No one's around. It's Friday afternoon at two o'clock. My wife's at work, nobody's at the church. I'm in my prayer room in my house, and I'm lying, I'm lying, I'm lying down, I'm I'm lying before the Lord praying. Uh, and all of a sudden, I I I it's hard to explain, but I smelled green fumes. Like toxic green fumes. I smelled them and I saw them hovering over me. I couldn't move for a second. I tried to move. I was I was velcro to the carpet. I tried to say, then I heard that I had this little thing. We all you know we all have OCDs, right? I mean, okay. If a if if if if the lights are on, the the the switch needs to be up. Okay. If the lights are off, the switch needs to be down. Yeah, right. Get it right, folks. Get it right. So that's my OCD. I'll go around, okay. That's not those these toggle switches, Satan does Satan invented those for me. So, but uh we all have our OCDs. But but one of them for me is I we have these pull out these little wooden closets, you know, that open up, you know, the little hinge closet. See, you know. Well, I heard that closet door open. I like all closet doors shut. Yeah, I don't like to leave one open. Yeah, it opened. I heard it open. I'm and so okay, I'm lying there finally. I'm trying to say, I'm gagging on this green toxic fume. Finally, Jesus, boom. Green fume gone. Yeah, no more velcro. I what in the world was that?

SPEAKER_04 1:43:29

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:43:30

I wait, I get up, kind of move around a little bit. I go to the screen door first, screen door's closed, still nobody here, nobody at the church. I'm like, what in the world? I'm kind of pacing around, go back in the prayer room. Like, wait, I go in the hallway, that closet door is open. I don't leave closet doors open to you. I think the Lord taught me. Um we think that we're in a safe place when we're in our home. I'm in my prayer room. Yeah, but guess what? Spiritual warfare is always around you.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:00

Which means you've got to be so incredibly in tune with the Holy Spirit in you. You've got to know the power of Jesus in your life. Right. You've got to know the the word of Christ. You've got to know that the blood of Jesus has covered you. If you don't know those things, you are susceptible anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:15

No, that's right. Knowing, knowing um what Christ has done for us and who we are in Christ gives us the authority.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:24

Authority.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:24

It's not that we're stronger than Satan, it's that the Holy Spirit and the power of the cross is what we depend upon.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:32

Satan has to, there's an order. Uh again, we don't fully understand it. Job one, wonky, but there is an order. There is an order, and there is a there is a um there is authority involved here.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:45

And you know, we see it in Genesis 1, day one, day two, day three. But there's an order in Job one, and there's an order, and and you know, Satan's days are numbered anyway. But within that order, so he's operating, he's the he's the God of this age. Man, that throws people off too.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:59

Well, okay, this is gonna be this this is what right and we say the song, This is my father's world.

SPEAKER_08 1:45:06

Yeah, and they say, Well, look, it's no, it's good. So which one is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:45:10

So, so what I before we this is gonna be the last question. Then we got we got five minutes. Okay, okay. Five minutes, and we're gonna end.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:16

I want to talk about that. What is it? What did Paul mean when he said, Yeah, you said the God of this age, the God of this world.

SPEAKER_08 1:45:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:24

Um, what what is that? How would you explain that to someone so they're not like freaking out all the time?

SPEAKER_08 1:45:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is this is my father's world. The hymn's still good. You can sing the hymn on Sunday morning. But the God of this age, I think that's the phrase, is the God of this age. Age is always translated as culture. Satan has used culture.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:45:45

When the church adapts to culture, when the church embraces culture over orthodoxy, when the church embraces things of the trend. I've said before a thousand times, God is not a trinity God.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:46:00

He's not into fads. He's into the word, he's into the pure, unadulterated, unchanging word of God. And and and when we, I think that's part of the problem, I think is is when it says God of this age, it's the God of this culture. So that doesn't, but but God, but that that Satan is leased on the earth, he's he's released on the earth right now, but he's using culture. He uses the culture. Culture seeps into the church instead of the church. We remember the days where church used to impact culture.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:26

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:46:26

Now we got every traveling sports team in the world on Sunday mornings at 11 o'clock.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:30

Yep. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_08 1:46:31

Okay. I mean, I'm not, and that's a good thing. My kids need sports, my kids need teamwork, my kids need to know how to work under a coach. Wonderful.0004% of your kids are gonna go into the NBA.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:44

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:46:45

Or the NFL. 100% are gonna meet Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:48

That's it.

SPEAKER_08 1:46:49

I took that from some meme, but but it's I mean it's true. So good. So here's these little things. So spiritual warfare is not just the pea soup, like holding the cross over someone, the holy water. It is it is much, much more devastating than that. Yeah, and that's where I think we have to understand. One last thought. Uh, and you mentioned about endurance. I just have to finish. I just read this not too long ago. Do y'all do the council? Do you all do the Nicene Creed here at times?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:12

Sometimes, yeah. Apostles' creed, Nicene Creed.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:14

One of my favorite creeds, uh Patina, is the Athenaceus Creed. Oh my gosh, it's a lot longer, but it's a beautiful, beautiful creed. And I'm a I'm I I love history. I'm a history geek and I'm a Bible geek, and and but I I love to connect the dots. Council of Nicaea, uh, I don't remember exact time, maybe uh 300. Yeah, 385, yeah, yeah. Yeah, something like that. Council of Nicaea, I think it was 312 church fathers came together. Okay. 312 church fathers. They came together for one purpose to combat heresy. Because even though, even after just a few short hundred years, yeah, heresy had infiltrated the church. Heck, heresy had infiltrated the church in the first year, probably. But this was specifically to uh defend the trinity and the

Endurance, Calling, And Cost

SPEAKER_08 1:48:02

divinity of Christ.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:03

Oh, divinity of Christ, okay. Which one was the Holy Spirit? Was that the one before?

SPEAKER_08 1:48:07

That's the Apostles' Creed, but also the Athanasius Creed. The Athanasius Creed talked about that, too. But the Nicene Creed talks about the Holy Spirit as well. But specifically the divinity of Christ and specifically the Trinity. This is why you've got the Father, Son, Holy Spirit so pronounced in the Nicene Creed. Okay. All right. Of the 312. 308 or cry were maimed in one way or another. There were missing hands, missing eyes, missing feet, missing legs. Three hundred and eight of the three hundred and twelve gave a part of themselves to defend the gospel.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:49

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_08 1:48:50

You ask about what it takes to be alert to spiritual warfare, not to give up. It's called endurance. It's called understanding the kingdom is worth everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:00

And and we're willing to risk everything temporarily for spiritual. And if we don't get it, if we I think there's a real important do not fear the one, Jesus said, who can simply take away your body.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:16

Fear the one who can take away your soul.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:18

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:18

And so if we're not committed to this, I I really do. This is passionate for me. Because I read that I read these quotes and I hear about these. I just see you've seen it as a pastor. I see it. And it hurts us.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:29

We see people completely deceived in the goodness of life.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:36

Huh. The God of this culture. Yeah. See, the God of this culture is very shrewd. He'll use the things of the culture to rule and reign in your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:45

Instead of letting the kingdom of God rule and reign in your life. There's a big difference. That's the I think that's the heartbeat of spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:53

Is understanding the two realms, an understanding that Satan uses the most, the most innocuous, we think, and even the good. Things and all of a sudden we're we're trapped. We've lost our spiritual fire. You know how hard it is to regain spiritual fire?

SPEAKER_01 1:50:07

Oh, listen.

SPEAKER_08 1:50:08

How many times have you talked to somebody who had fire? They were born again. They went on a mayus walk. They went on a retreat. And now something happened four years later, six years later, and now they're trying to get back. You know what they do? They spend 20 years trying to get back.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:50:21

Something they already had. They didn't have to fight for.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:23

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:50:23

I wonder who does that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:50:26

Spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:28

No, it's good. I mean, it's good to talk about it because we need to be more aware of it. And we can blame a lot of things. You know, we can blame other people. We can blame our life circumstances. We can say, well, nobody treats me well. My family hates my gut. Whatever it is. But those things, as you described, all those people who came who had given a piece of themselves, I mean, they were willing to probably lose their lives. You know, they lost a part of their bodies. So probably in some kind of situation like that. And if we can just get, you know, that pe that piece of our heart fully, if we just fully give ourselves to the Lord.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:08

That's I'll just say this last comment. I think those 308, and probably the 312, but 308 had the marks. They understood the realms. Their commitment and their allegiance to the spiritual realm was greater than to the temporal realm. Because they had their eyes on they were not so far removed from when Jesus said, keep looking at the skies, for the way I ascended is the way I will come back. That's that's they were not that far removed. And we're so far removed and so far insulated with all the good things and all the comfort that we've forgotten that.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:46

And I still say the early church, they talked about really two things. Two things they talked about and preached the cross and the coming back.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:53

They talked about what happened and what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:56

That's what the church did thousands of two thousand years ago. And I think to this, to this day, and to our discredit, um, we have either ignored or really discredited the realms. And I think it all comes down to understanding the two realms. And if we understand the two realms better, we're gonna know, we're gonna know the enemy. We're gonna be able to, we're gonna be able to resist better. We're also gonna love and we're gonna be in love with God more.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:52:23

But if we don't know them, I think we're at Satan's.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:26

The only way we can know them is to study them.

SPEAKER_08 1:52:29

Study them.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:30

And and and and just right now, do you have any books that you recommend for people?

SPEAKER_08 1:52:34

Battleground of the mind, Francis Franjo Pain would be really good. Uh I would think I I can't remember the name of the book, but R. C. Sprawls does a good book on spiritual warfare. Again, A.W. Tozer does some good work on spiritual warfare. I'd go to the classics, some of the classics. I would be careful of some, I'm not going to mention names necessarily, but just there's some there's some things out there I've read that are just not good, I don't think, and not very biblically sound. Um it goes to the more shout louder than the devil kind of theology, and I don't like that. Um but I think uh those are the ones I think I would gravitate to. Francis Franjo Pan is a really good one. Uh you had uh you mentioned Joyce Myers by the same name, but I think I think Francis Franjo Pan, it's out there, maybe out of print by now. Um those are some of the best ones. Um but I know, I I just know this. I the last point we talked about how do we I think we just make sure you're studying good things, make sure it's biblical. If you have any questions, go to a really, really trusted um can I say orthodox voice?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:53:32

So go to a trusted voice say it. Go to a trusted orthodox voice. And uh and even go to a Catholic voice. Go to someone that's trained in spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:44

I'm telling you, I they have volumes of spiritual warfare teaching. Yep.

SPEAKER_08 1:53:48

And not everything's you're gonna agree with.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:50

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:53:51

But leave what? Eat the meat, leave the bone.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:53

I mean, that's what I do. People will ask me all the time, like, I thought you were, you know, whatever. Don't put me in a box. Yeah. I'm a Christian, I read the Bible, I'm very sound in my understanding of scripture, but I do listen to uh I think the Catholic Church has actually done a really good job and um in their teaching in this area.

SPEAKER_08 1:54:10

So one of the well, this will be another session. Damon's looking at us.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:15

Um I know this.

SPEAKER_08 1:54:17

Uh legalism and serving an angry God. Maybe next topic. Legalism and serving an angry God. Spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:54:33

If he can trap us in legalism, and if he can trap us and convince us like that guy, I'm gonna be humiliated at the end of time. Yeah, those are spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:43

Listen, listen, when you when you get through that, you're right. Because when you overcome, which I had to overcome that, um, everything changed in my life after that. Oh, everything.

SPEAKER_08 1:54:52

So your opinion of you, your opinion of God.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:54

Yeah, my opinion of God, yeah. It's humbling of how he thinks of us.

SPEAKER_08 1:54:59

Humbling, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:00

So well, listen, like as we said, this could go on for I we could be one of those podcasters of really good ones that are like four hours long that I listen to. But we won't do that to Damien. Um, he's side on it. No, he's a side. Bless you guys, man.

SPEAKER_08 1:55:14

We love you, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:15

So uh, but we got a conference to get to, so yeah. We'll let you go get ready for that. And um, and I'll see you there tonight. But listen, thanks everybody for watching, and we'll have another session soon.

SPEAKER_08 1:55:25

Can't wait. All right. Bless you.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:27

Bye.